On this week’s episode we discuss Pathological Demand Avoidance, or PDA. We explore what PDA is, including the history of this construct, and the positives and negatives of the PDA concept. We cover what factors can contribute to demand avoidance amongst neurodivergent people, including personal, neurobiological, cultural, and social factors, and chat though how our stress response plays into demand avoidance, and what you can do to lessen the impact of demand avoidance on your life (or how you can support your child with this).



For more information on Pathological Demand Avoidance check out:


Kirsty Forbes (https://www.kristyforbes.com.au/)
Raelene Dundon, who has authored ‘PDA in the Therapy Room – A clinician’s guide to working with children with Pathological Demand Avoidance’.



Contact us at ndwomanpod@gmail.com, or visit our website: www.ndwomanpod.com



Email us your questions for our Q&A episode by November 7th!



Visit our websites to attend upcoming client and professional development webinars:



Michelle's website: https://www.michellelivock.com/

Monique's website: http://moniquemitchelson.com.au/



We are on Patreon! Check out our Patreon page to support us, as we aim to make quality mental health care information accessible to everyone: www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod

On this week’s episode we discuss Pathological Demand Avoidance, or PDA. We explore what PDA is, including the history of this construct, and the positives and negatives of the PDA concept. We cover what factors can contribute to demand avoidance amongst neurodivergent people, including personal, neurobiological, cultural, and social factors, and chat though how our stress response plays into demand avoidance, and what you can do to lessen the impact of demand avoidance on your life (or how you can support your child with this).
 
For more information on Pathological Demand Avoidance check out:
 
<ul>
<li>Kirsty Forbes (<a href="https://www.kristyforbes.com.au/">https://www.kristyforbes.com.au/</a>)</li>
<li>Raelene Dundon, who has authored ‘PDA in the Therapy Room – A clinician’s guide to working with children with Pathological Demand Avoidance’.</li>
</ul>
 
Contact us at <a href="mailto:ndwomanpod@gmail.com">ndwomanpod@gmail.com</a>, or visit our website: <a href="http://www.ndwomanpod.com">www.ndwomanpod.com</a>
 
Email us your questions for our Q&amp;A episode by November 7th!
 
Visit our websites to attend upcoming client and professional development webinars:
 
Michelle's website: <a href="https://www.michellelivock.com/">https://www.michellelivock.com/</a>
Monique's website: <a href="http://moniquemitchelson.com.au/">http://moniquemitchelson.com.au/</a>
 
We are on Patreon! Check out our Patreon page to support us, as we aim to make quality mental health care information accessible to everyone: <a href="http://www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod">www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod</a>

A podcast for neurodivergent women, hosted by clinical psychologist Monique Mitchelson and clinical neuropsychologist Michelle Livock. Covering Autism to ADHD and everything in between, we aim to educate and inspire women who think differently.

The Neurodivergent Woman

Pathological Demand Avoidance

This week on the pod we chat with Marie Masse (pronounced ‘moss’) about special interests and creativity. Marie is part of our little ND Woman Pod team, and she has been the creative genius behind pretty much everything except the actual episodes themselves, so if you follow us on socials, or you’ve checked out our website, or you’ve downloaded one of our gorgeous PDF episode articles, you’ve definitely seen her work!



Marie is a late-identified 2e AuDHDer with two neurodivergent kids, navigating life with OCD and chronic health conditions —mostly from her creative sanctuary: a little cabin in the Blue Ridge Mountains in the USA. During a period of trauma and burnout, Marie lost access to her most sacred interest—her creative process—but has since reclaimed it, proving that healing and recovery are possible. Since 2013, she has crafted over 300 creations—articles, digital tools, guides, books, podcast episodes, and transformative programs centred around story work. Her creations invite others to stay awake to the tiny stories that shape their lives and use them as opportunities to heal, thrive, and live fully expressed.



On this episode we cover:
 How Marie thinks about neurodivergence and her path to discovering her own neurodivergence.
How ‘special interests’ manifest for Marie.
The difference between Autistic, ADHD, and AuDHD special interests.
The centrality of special interests as an ‘organising force’ for autistic folk.
Marie’s experience of losing access to her creative process (her special interest).
The difference between living a ‘balanced’ life for neurotypicals, versus what ‘balance’ can look like for neurodivergent people.
Marie’s experience of her special interests in childhood.
How the internet has made interests and interest-based connections more accessible for neurodivergent folk.
Neurotypical special interests.
Marie explains ‘story work’.  



You can find Marie’s work through her website – www.dangerouslygoodstories.com – on Instagram @dangerouslygoodstories and @myneurodivergentjoy, or through her Substack (Live Like You Mean It).



Want polished copies of our episodes in beautiful and readable pdf article format? Grab them here. 



Enjoyed the episode and want to support us further? Join our Patreon community! Patreon subscribers receive basic episode transcripts from Season 4 onwards, access to a monthly live zoom hang out, 50% off our episode articles, plus bonus monthly content (depending on subscription tier). Check out our Patreon page to support us, as we aim to make quality mental health care information accessible to everyone: www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod.



Contact us at ndwomanpod@gmail.com, or visit our website: www.ndwomanpod.com

This week on the pod we chat with Marie Masse (pronounced ‘moss’) about special interests and creativity. Marie is part of our little ND Woman Pod team, and she has been the creative genius behind pretty much everything except the actual episodes themselves, so if you follow us on socials, or you’ve checked out our website, or you’ve downloaded one of our gorgeous PDF episode articles, you’ve definitely seen her work!
 
Marie is a late-identified 2e AuDHDer with two neurodivergent kids, navigating life with OCD and chronic health conditions —mostly from her creative sanctuary: a little cabin in the Blue Ridge Mountains in the USA. During a period of trauma and burnout, Marie lost access to her most sacred interest—her creative process—but has since reclaimed it, proving that healing and recovery are possible. Since 2013, she has crafted over 300 creations—articles, digital tools, guides, books, podcast episodes, and transformative programs centred around story work. Her creations invite others to stay awake to the tiny stories that shape their lives and use them as opportunities to heal, thrive, and live fully expressed.
 
<hr>
On this episode we cover:
<ol>
<li> How Marie thinks about neurodivergence and her path to discovering her own neurodivergence.</li>
<li>How ‘special interests’ manifest for Marie.</li>
<li>The difference between Autistic, ADHD, and AuDHD special interests.</li>
<li>The centrality of special interests as an ‘organising force’ for autistic folk.</li>
<li>Marie’s experience of losing access to her creative process (her special interest).</li>
<li>The difference between living a ‘balanced’ life for neurotypicals, versus what ‘balance’ can look like for neurodivergent people.</li>
<li>Marie’s experience of her special interests in childhood.</li>
<li>How the internet has made interests and interest-based connections more accessible for neurodivergent folk.</li>
<li>Neurotypical special interests.</li>
<li>Marie explains ‘story work’.  </li>
</ol>
<hr>
 
You can find Marie’s work through her website – <a href="http://www.dangerouslygoodstories.com">www.dangerouslygoodstories.com</a> – on Instagram @dangerouslygoodstories and @myneurodivergentjoy, or through her Substack (Live Like You Mean It).
 
Want polished copies of our episodes in beautiful and readable pdf article format? Grab them <a href="https://www.ndwomanpod.com/transcripts">here</a>. 
 
Enjoyed the episode and want to support us further? Join our Patreon community! Patreon subscribers receive basic episode transcripts from Season 4 onwards, access to a monthly live zoom hang out, 50% off our episode articles, plus bonus monthly content (depending on subscription tier). Check out our Patreon page to support us, as we aim to make quality mental health care information accessible to everyone: <a href="http://www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod">www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod.</a>
 
Contact us at <a href="mailto:ndwomanpod@gmail.com">ndwomanpod@gmail.com</a>, or visit our website: <a href="http://www.ndwomanpod.com">www.ndwomanpod.com</a>

Special Interests and Creativity with Marie Masse

Today’s guest is Jess Rowlings. Jess is the CEO and co-founder of Next Level Collaboration, as well as a qualified speech and language therapist. She also works as a researcher at the Melbourne Graduate School of Education, and previously Murdoch Children’s Research Institute. Jess is an adult diagnosed AuDHDer and has a lifelong love of games, both of which inform her work and research. As a researcher, she is passionate about the use of digital games-based learning to promote inclusion and a sense of belonging, and her work has included developing and running a dedicated Minecraft server to support neurodivergent girls and women.



Monique and Jess cover:
Jess’ path to identifying her own neurodivergence.
Her research on gaming and neurodivergence.
How gaming can support both sides of the AuDHD brain, what it can tell us about a person’s problem-solving style, and how it can promote collaborative problem-solving skills.
Jess’ relationship to gaming throughout her life, and the purpose gaming has served for her.
Gender in gaming, including the popularity of gaming amongst adult women, blocks to gaming accessibility for girls, women, and AFAB folk, and Jess’ suggestions around what parents and adult gamers can do to have safer and more accessible gaming spaces.
The huge variety of experiences and play options that come under the ‘gaming’ umbrella and how this has evolved over time.
Discussion on the potential negative effects of gaming, including recognising active vs. passive screen time, the balance of gaming with other life activities, and what parents and adult gamers can do to support healthy gaming activity.
The importance of taking kids’ interest and strength in gaming seriously.
The many benefits of gaming for neurodivergent folk.





You can find Jess on LinkedIn or Twitter @JessRowlings, or through Next Level Collaboration. Jess has also co-written a book with Matthew Harrison - Press B to Belong – on creating inclusive Esports programs for school communities.



This episode with Jess is kicking off a little mini-series we have planned for you on neurodivergent joy; next week we’ll be talking about special interests and creative expression, followed by self-care and self-nurturance. We hope you enjoy!



Want polished copies of our episodes in beautiful and readable pdf article format? Grab them here. 



Enjoyed the episode and want to support us further? Join our Patreon community! Patreon subscribers receive basic episode transcripts from Season 4 onwards, access to a monthly live zoom hang out, 50% off our episode articles, plus bonus monthly content (depending on subscription tier). Check out our Patreon page to support us, as we aim to make quality mental health care information accessible to everyone: www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod.



Contact us at ndwomanpod@gmail.com, or visit our website: www.ndwomanpod.com

Today’s guest is Jess Rowlings. Jess is the CEO and co-founder of Next Level Collaboration, as well as a qualified speech and language therapist. She also works as a researcher at the Melbourne Graduate School of Education, and previously Murdoch Children’s Research Institute. Jess is an adult diagnosed AuDHDer and has a lifelong love of games, both of which inform her work and research. As a researcher, she is passionate about the use of digital games-based learning to promote inclusion and a sense of belonging, and her work has included developing and running a dedicated Minecraft server to support neurodivergent girls and women.
 
Monique and Jess cover:
<ol>
<li>Jess’ path to identifying her own neurodivergence.</li>
<li>Her research on gaming and neurodivergence.</li>
<li>How gaming can support both sides of the AuDHD brain, what it can tell us about a person’s problem-solving style, and how it can promote collaborative problem-solving skills.</li>
<li>Jess’ relationship to gaming throughout her life, and the purpose gaming has served for her.</li>
<li>Gender in gaming, including the popularity of gaming amongst adult women, blocks to gaming accessibility for girls, women, and AFAB folk, and Jess’ suggestions around what parents and adult gamers can do to have safer and more accessible gaming spaces.</li>
<li>The huge variety of experiences and play options that come under the ‘gaming’ umbrella and how this has evolved over time.</li>
<li>Discussion on the potential negative effects of gaming, including recognising active vs. passive screen time, the balance of gaming with other life activities, and what parents and adult gamers can do to support healthy gaming activity.</li>
<li>The importance of taking kids’ interest and strength in gaming seriously.</li>
<li>The many benefits of gaming for neurodivergent folk.</li>
</ol>
 
 
You can find Jess on LinkedIn or Twitter @JessRowlings, or through <a href="https://nextlevelcollaboration.com/">Next Level Collaboration</a>. Jess has also co-written a book with Matthew Harrison - <a href="https://bookstore.emerald.com/press-b-to-belong-hb-9781804559277.html">Press B to Belong</a> – on creating inclusive Esports programs for school communities.
 
This episode with Jess is kicking off a little mini-series we have planned for you on neurodivergent joy; next week we’ll be talking about special interests and creative expression, followed by self-care and self-nurturance. We hope you enjoy!
 
Want polished copies of our episodes in beautiful and readable pdf article format? Grab them <a href="https://www.ndwomanpod.com/transcripts">here</a>. 
 
Enjoyed the episode and want to support us further? Join our Patreon community! Patreon subscribers receive basic episode transcripts from Season 4 onwards, access to a monthly live zoom hang out, 50% off our episode articles, plus bonus monthly content (depending on subscription tier). Check out our Patreon page to support us, as we aim to make quality mental health care information accessible to everyone: <a href="http://www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod">www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod.</a>
 
Contact us at <a href="mailto:ndwomanpod@gmail.com">ndwomanpod@gmail.com</a>, or visit our website: <a href="http://www.ndwomanpod.com">www.ndwomanpod.com</a>

Gaming with Jess Rowlings

This week Monique interviews Professor Sandra Thom-Jones about aging as an autistic person. Sandra is an autistic author, artisan, academic, and advocate. She provides consultancy services to education, employment, and healthcare providers, and supports for autistic people, through her consultancy ‘Autistic Professor’. Sandra is the author of Growing in to Autism, and she has undertaken numerous research projects­ in partnership with the autistic community on the experiences of autistic people and the knowledge and attitudes towards autism in the community; including research that won the Autism CRC’s 2019 and 2021 awards for research translation and the 2022 award for inclusive research. 



Monique and Sandra cover:
Sandra’s experience of her neurodivergence throughout her life and her path to identifying her autistic neurotype.
Why do older autistic adults tend to be ‘invisible’ to society at large, and what factors contribute to the support needs of this population?
Generational trends in the understanding of and meaning associated with an autism diagnosis, and the implications for disclosure and self-advocacy.
The unique needs of autistic folk when navigating later stages of life like menopause, increasing healthcare needs, aged care, retirement, and managing family changes and transitions.
The importance of discarding neuro-normative expectations about what aging or retirement ‘should’ look like, and Sandra’s tips for a joyful retirement as an autistic person.



You can find more of Sandra’s work through her website – www.autisticprofessor.com – or follow her on Facebook (@autisticprofessor) or Instagram (@sandrathomjones_au_author).



Get a copy of Sandra’s book, Growing in to Autism, and pre-order her upcoming book, Autistics in Academia, through Cambridge University Press.



Follow Sandra on socials to stay updated on her next book, on the experiences of autistic people in the workplace!



Want polished copies of our episodes in beautiful and readable pdf article format? Grab them here. 



Enjoyed the episode and want to support us further? Join our Patreon community! Patreon subscribers receive basic episode transcripts from Season 4 onwards, access to a monthly live zoom hang out, 50% off our episode articles, plus bonus monthly content (depending on subscription tier). Check out our Patreon page to support us, as we aim to make quality mental health care information accessible to everyone: www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod.



Contact us at ndwomanpod@gmail.com, or visit our website: www.ndwomanpod.com

This week Monique interviews Professor Sandra Thom-Jones about aging as an autistic person. Sandra is an autistic author, artisan, academic, and advocate. She provides consultancy services to education, employment, and healthcare providers, and supports for autistic people, through her consultancy ‘Autistic Professor’. Sandra is the author of Growing in to Autism, and she has undertaken numerous research projects­ in partnership with the autistic community on the experiences of autistic people and the knowledge and attitudes towards autism in the community; including research that won the Autism CRC’s 2019 and 2021 awards for research translation and the 2022 award for inclusive research. 
 
Monique and Sandra cover:
<ul>
<li>Sandra’s experience of her neurodivergence throughout her life and her path to identifying her autistic neurotype.</li>
<li>Why do older autistic adults tend to be ‘invisible’ to society at large, and what factors contribute to the support needs of this population?</li>
<li>Generational trends in the understanding of and meaning associated with an autism diagnosis, and the implications for disclosure and self-advocacy.</li>
<li>The unique needs of autistic folk when navigating later stages of life like menopause, increasing healthcare needs, aged care, retirement, and managing family changes and transitions.</li>
<li>The importance of discarding neuro-normative expectations about what aging or retirement ‘should’ look like, and Sandra’s tips for a joyful retirement as an autistic person.</li>
</ul>
 
You can find more of Sandra’s work through her website – <a href="http://www.autisticprofessor.com">www.autisticprofessor.com</a> – or follow her on Facebook (@autisticprofessor) or Instagram (@sandrathomjones_au_author).
 
Get a copy of Sandra’s book, <a href="https://www.autisticprofessor.com/growingintoautism">Growing in to Autism</a>, and pre-order her upcoming book, <a href="https://www.cambridge.org/au/universitypress/subjects/psychology/cognition/autistics-academia-narratives-work-adversity-and-achievement-around-world?format=HB&amp;isbn=9781009374064">Autistics in Academia, through Cambridge University Press</a>.
 
Follow Sandra on socials to stay updated on her next book, on the experiences of autistic people in the workplace!
 
Want polished copies of our episodes in beautiful and readable pdf article format? Grab them <a href="https://www.ndwomanpod.com/transcripts">here</a>. 
 
Enjoyed the episode and want to support us further? Join our Patreon community! Patreon subscribers receive basic episode transcripts from Season 4 onwards, access to a monthly live zoom hang out, 50% off our episode articles, plus bonus monthly content (depending on subscription tier). Check out our Patreon page to support us, as we aim to make quality mental health care information accessible to everyone: <a href="http://www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod">www.patreon.com/ndwomanpod.</a>
 
Contact us at <a href="mailto:ndwomanpod@gmail.com">ndwomanpod@gmail.com</a>, or visit our website: <a href="http://www.ndwomanpod.com">www.ndwomanpod.com</a>

Pathological Demand Avoidance

The Neurodivergent Woman

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