Hello, and welcome back to the week Side Podcast. I'm Jenny Frentis. I'm here with Connor or as always, although I hear a rumor that Connor's daughter may soon be my new co host, which I'm really pushing forward to happen um and I think that the listeners would enjoy that as well. What do you think, Connor? Yes, So we were the other day, my wife and I look, you know, we're both working in the kitchen living room space, and we looked like, where did the baby go? And we heard her rustling around in the office down the hallway. We opened the door. She was up in the podcast chair with the microphone and she said, I'm talking to Jenny. So you know, she's ready to go. And I think that she's had some fair complaints about my performance on the last few podcasts and and she's ready to stick her nose in and uh and give it a shot. So you know, I'm all for it. You know, she's she's ready. You know, Well, we were testing it out behind the scenes, but unfortunately the cats out of the bag. So we'll be uh, we'll be sure to announce any relevant changes in the coming weeks as long as we have one or on the podcast. I think we're in good shape, right, no matter who it is. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've I've I've been feeling the pressure. Um, you know, she's been nipping at my heels now for a long time. And it's it's a natural passage of time. You know. It's like, what didn't the younger Golic take over for the older Golic on ESPN Radio, so that this kind of stuff happens in the business, you know. There you go. Very gracious for you wanting your daughter to have an opportunity. All right. We are recording today on Monday afternoon, and as of now, the full rules for the NFL's returned to Camp return to play, all the protocols have not yet been worked out yet, so we are going to delay discussing that until there's a little bit more of a tangible resolution. I will say that it's kind of crazy we're at this juncture and time without things getting worked out. Obviously, when you know the time comes and there's a lot of pressure and there's a deadline, that's usually when agreements get reached. Um. But over the last few months, the NFL has been intent on moving forward and I think now we're at the point in time where it's like, well, if you want to move forward, you need to have worked out X, Y and Z, And I think the country is probably in a different place than most of us expected we would be in in mid July UM, which I think should have been factored into any any plans moving forward. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know if the you know, I'm sure we all thought, you know, this is going to get better. But if you're the NFL and you have a disaster preparedness team and you're as steeped in politics and the realities of our current political situation as they are, um, you didn't think maybe this was a possibility that like things were gonna get worse and we might not embrace the virus, especially in an election year when it might hurt somebody's poll numbers. I don't know. I mean, you know, this is the kind of stuff that there are people making a lot of money that there that's their job to anticipate. And while I don't know if it's totally fair to say the NFL had this long head start and they blew it blah blah blah, I mean, I think part of that is true, but the the anticipatory part of it that hey, well everything will be better by July. I mean, whoever's job that was, I mean wow, I mean, you know, you really need to be a little bit more aware of the current situation here. I mean, you know, this is We're not gonna have high school football in Texas this year. We're not gonna high school football in California this year. UM. Florida is one of the worst UM states right now in terms of surgeon cases. So we in the three biggest high school football states in the country, we might not have high school football. Like, think about that. UM. And you know, here here's the NFL ten days before training camp saying Okay, I guess we gotta start figuring some of this out. Yeah, I mean we uh, we do, absolutely, And I agree with you, Connor. It's a little bit more nuanced than saying simply the NFL had a head start and blew it. But you have the players on the eve of camp feeling concerned for their safety, rightly so having a coordinated social media campaign, so obviously that's unacceptable. You know, it's We've expressed our concerns through the process about the league's desire to just kind of forge ahead with this plan to play. But if you're going to do that, you need to make sure you have everything buttoned up. And it's clear that that is not the case. Did you notice by the way that you know, there were most of the players who did the post as it seemed to be written right, I mean, there was a framework right of of a general post um that the players expressing conservat for their safety. But then there was like one or two players who, you know, it's almost like they adjusted the post so as not to look like they were one of the players posting, but so they could pacify both the NFL p A and maybe there I don't know, let's say, uh red meat favoring uh fan base. Uh WEE will leave it at that, but I would encourage people to look at some of the posts because there is sort of that union vibe from all the players, and then there's you know, sort of that there are good people on both sides sort of posting that's been going on from some people, which I thought was interesting, especially given what has been happening in the recent past. So good to keep an eye on if your fellow players, to make sure you know who's posting what? So Okay, Well, now I'm extremely curious. I was trying to lay a little bit low on social media this weekend. I did see some of the posts, but I didn't um really linger as much as maybe I should have. So now I've got to go back. I do enjoy when Connor drops some clues on things. Uh, generally there's an interesting result on the other side. But so since everything is not resolved yet, we're going to come back to this later in the week and talk a little bit more in depth about where things stand. But one topic we have not covered on the podcast that is very important and top of mind for every one in the NFL is the Washington Post story last week that was written by Will Hobson and Liz Clark, and it was a very thoroughly reported investigation into the culture in the Washington NFL team. They spoke to more than forty people current and former team employees, and fifteen former Washington employees told the newspaper that they were sexually harassed during their time at the club. One spoke on the record, and the other fourteen spoke onto the condition of anonymity. They were afraid that the NBA agreements they signed with the team UM would have legal consequences, and the team also refused to release them from those NDAs, which ends are incredibly problematic and should not exist in any company or industry, and that's certainly something that has come to light. It's been a push of several media unions in the last year. Elizabeth Warren pushed for it during the the the debates this spring for the primaries, so it's certainly an important issue as well. But really a bright light shine on UM, what the culture can be inside some NFL teams and the amount of women willing to speak to the outlet to detail their experiences, which is not an easy thing to do UM, was really stunning. Connor, I mean that this was so widespread UM, and that there were so many corroborating accounts for UM what they shared. And in addition to the team employees, there were two reporters to female reporters UM who spoke on the record UM, both Ryan and Walker who works for the Athletic and Nora Princati who works for The Ringer Now, who detailed their experiences with one team employee UM acting inappropriately towards them and the sexual harassment that they experienced. UM. Certainly, this report, I think Connor has had UH waves throughout the league. I think there's a lot of people that are questioning their conduct, that are wondering if it's happening in their organizations. UM. I mean I know of some of that that's going on, but I certainly hope that it's widespread. I hope these conversations are taking place in every building. I hope there is a reckoning. UM. I hope this is not one of those things that generates a lot of attention when it first comes out but then fades to the back, which all too often happens in the NFL. Yeah, and you know, just to say the bravery associated with and I've talked to male colleagues and female colleagues about, um, this story since it's come out, and I think the thing that blows my mind to this point still is the insane bravery that it takes to detail uh, that kind of brand of harassment that happens to you for so many reasons, right, I mean, this is still as far as we've come as a society, not a culture that's friendly and arms wide open when it comes to women detailing these issues. Even though they're prevalent across you know, any industry and to to to know the blowback and to you know, anticipate the blowback that you're going to get um it and still be willing to stick up for all of your fellow female employees who want football, you know, to be an inclusive environment. You know, this is a game that's changing. It's not this boys club that started in the nineteen twenties. This is these are big businesses and you know, I don't know, I was. I was amazed by their bravery there Grayson sharing these stories, and like you said, I hope we can look at it and think, okay, because it's not just the top of the iceberg stuff. It's not the headline grabbing things. It's what's below the surface. Did I ever do anything that made somebody uncomfortable? Uh? Is there a way that I acted that? And and just that self inventory, that self reflection, that's what this time is for. You know, ask yourself read this and say, beyond the extreme things that are in here, what have I done to maybe make a female employee feel less comfortable, coworker to feel less comfortable, less included, less involved? And you know, is there a way to rectify that situation. And you know, people just get immediately defensive when stuff like this comes out, when all anyone is asking is to take stock, you know, ask yourself what your hand in this has been. Have you ever done anything like this? Do you know somebody? You know? Are you enabling the behavior of somebody that's acting like this? And you know, you hope that the brilliant reporting here, the bravery from the women coming forward, can can lead to some change. Yeah, And I think what you described, Connor, the reaction generally is one of two things. It's either defensiveness, um, you know, I couldn't have been a part of this, or blaming the women, or some combination of those things. Um. And the other response that I've encountered a little bit is very well meaning men who don't understand how this is possible because they've never acted in this way, right. And so I think that the combination of those two things can sometimes make it difficult because there are a lot of well meaning men that have cannot fathom experiencing sexual harassment or cannot fathom delivering sexual harassment, and so they may be unaware that it's going on or how pervasive it is because it's not something that they can fully understand UM. And so I think that there's a lot that needs to be done to break through kind of these cultures that are so persistent. UM. I. I think about the way that there's been a lot of really positive developments with anti racist readings, anti racism education, and I think that same effort would be really helpful if applied to misogyny, UM, if applied to harassment UM. I think looking at something under the context of saying, you've been raised in a society and there may be things that you've unconsciously absorbed that you don't realize that you're doing UM. Or maybe there are ways that you can actively work against the problem more even if you don't believe you're part of the problem. I think those two steps would go a long way. The other concern that I have with how this is being handled is, of course the fact that Washington has hired the outside investigator. Yes, it's an outside person that has experienced doing workplace investigations, but when you're hired by Washington, that mely compromises your ability to do the job. And I was really surprised by that. I was surprised that the NFL just seemed to say, hey, well, listen to what the outside investigator that they've hired fines and will act accordingly. Um. That to me is not a strong enough response. UM. You know, especially for an organization that, when confronted by these allegations before the story went to press, did decline to release women from the NDA s. And so you have a lot of questions about how that will be handled in the investigation process. UM. And the continued unwillingness to perhaps acknowledge the behaviors and the culture that leaders, particularly Daniel Snyder UM, are responsible for allowing to persist. It's funny because and I don't ever want to equate this with winning and losing. And I hope keep me keep me on on on the rails here on this. But like, if you're the CEO of a company, especially a company that is judged by wins and losses, it's just stupid to not care about this kind of stuff. Like a United organization is a successful organization, and you know, I think that that's fairly true across the board, and like why wouldn't you want to make your company better and less toxic? And you know, and across the board, and you know, the stubbornness when it comes to anything, but especially something as serious as this blows my mind. You know, this is actively an organization that is just devouring itself from the inside. And you know, if you come to work uncomfortable every day, that's going to affect everything everything around you. If you come to work as somebody who makes other people uncomfortable, it's going to affect everybody around you. And it's like, why why do we have such a blind spot for this as compared to any other thing that is affecting, you know, the the wellness of the company me you know, you know what I'm saying. And it's just like, why wouldn't you care about this? I mean, like you said, hiring a non independent investigator is just going to tell you exactly what you want to hear and you're gonna move on and you're gonna keep having this toxicity fester in your organization. And so to me, that doesn't make sense. It's just like the lack of willingness to get better on any front is startling, but especially this front, I think is like one of those things that's like why are we still holding out um the idea that this is an important or I don't need to be bothered by this. I think that's exactly right, Connor, because look at the ease at which come or NFL teams organizations tried to cleanse themselves from a coach that lost a lot. Right, there's this immediate like we're gonna go change everything. We always laugh about the ping pong tables and the pool tables and the locker room. They either go in or they go out, whatever the opposite of the previous coach was. Right, there's always this commitment that we're restarting, we're building something new here. Um because teams believe that that has a direct impact on wins and losses and the way that female employees are treated in an organization. People say, oh, maybe their business side employees and they're not coaching. But what people fail to realize is that that will make you less likely to have a healthy culture. As you said, that affects everybody, and there are women who serve in football side roles. There's female coaches, there's female scouts, female executives on the football side, female PR officials, female trainers, any aspect of the organization. So the idea that this this doesn't affect how successful your team is. Is is a backwards notion, but also the idea that this is just something separate and that it shouldn't be treated with the same care as the culture that a head coach installs is incredibly frustrating. Yeah, frustrating on multiple ends. And you know, speaking of which, I mean, the head coach is basically the only one that's come out and talked about this, and all this stuff happened before he got there, you know, and for for it's it's mind boggling to me that somebody would be uh you know, blessed enough to own an NFL franchise and to spend this little time being emotionally invested in how the organizations perceived and and how the organization functions. I mean, NFL coaches, as we've seen time and time again, are not equipped to talk about this kind of stuff, as much as we wish that they were. There's always that uh fallback. What did Ron Rivera say, Well, my daughter works for the team, so I wanted to be better. You know, there's always that mail, um, that immediate mail twitch to go, I have a daughter, I have a mom, I have a sister, and or a grandmother and it's like you're missing the point. You know, it's it. And to force Ron to just be the only person to talk about this and to come out and be the voice of this, I think has been ridiculous and absurd. And if anybody thinks that this does not affect everything that's going on, you're out of your mind. If you work for a company, even if you work for I'm not going to list a company too, and for that something is going on there. But see, you work at a massive corporation with hundreds of thousands of employees. If there is a reputation for sexual assault or anything that makes employees feel uncomfortable in one corner of the office, that is going to affect the way that everything works. Because it's what you feel when you walk in the door. It's that vibe, it's that unconscious uncomfortability. Um uh, you know, whatever it is you want to call it, and that exists. That's a real thing. And if you think that doesn't matter, look at the successful organizations and football and anywhere in business, see how they treat their employees, and look at the unsuccessful ones. And it's fairly easy, I would guess, to h to pluck out the good from the bad and how they react to things like this. Yeah, and let's go back to the owner for a second, because I think this is really an important point. As you said, didn't comment publicly, like, didn't do any interviews, right, UM wrote an inadequate letter to team employees that didn't apologize to the women. Just a complete abdication of responsibility. In my opinion, there's no way that you can't take this head on. And this is one of many things. This is not just one incident, right, I mean, in there was the revelation that a team executive sold access to Washington cheerleaders. I'm bringing from the Washington Post story. They referenced the previous reporting by The Times UM as part of premium suite packages. Right, that happened in then we have the situation with a team name where it was only pressure from sponsors that forced him to change it. UM. You know, Michael Rosenberg and I reported on this sham foundation that he created that didn't follow through on the mission that it said it was and essentially was a pr push for allowing them to keep the name UM. And then you have this, right, you have a rampant sexual harassment within the organization on your watch. And you know what coaches always say, Connor, you're either coaching it or you're allowing it to happen. So let's apply that football standards to the football team owner, right. So, I just if you're another owner in the league, I don't know how there isn't pressure. And when I read the NFL statement Friday morning after the story came out, I thought, you know what, They're not going to do anything. That he's just going to be allowed to keep the team. And I think there's been too many knocks against him, sexism, harassment, UM, racism affiliated with either him or team employees. But that all he should answer to all of that, right, UM. And I don't know why there aren't consequences, And I think it's ridiculous that that there isn't a consequence, that there isn't more pushback on that, UM. And I think it's uh, it's incredibly disappointing that I thought. I thought the league's response was disappointing Connor. And not that this matters, but one of the most universally sort of disliked owners, I mean, somebody that if you went back and you trace the lineage of the last twenty five years of rapid growth in football. I mean, you know, anything that you read, it's not like this person is a champion of any of innovation of any kind that is helping drive this league forward. And I say that because it's like, why are they why are they choosing this hill to die, and why are they picking this guy to defend and say we're not going to do anything about you know, I mean, they should do any they should, they should do the right thing regardless. But there, I don't know, hesitancy, whatever you want to call it, lack of a plan. UM is especially strange considering that you know, why, why this guy? Why are you sticking up for this guy? You know? And I don't know, and it just it doesn't make any sense to me. I I would I would guess that you could tell the story of the NFL over the last twenty five years with or without Daniel Snyder. It's not like this. He is a person that is integral to UM this the last twenty five years of NFL football and and at least in at least in my opinion, and uh so, I I'm just surprised that you know there isn't more of a push to say, you know what I mean, we can be a better league without this guy, you know, And why don't we just put someone in who's going to care about anything, I mean, any aspect of the team culture so that we can stop every four years having some sort of Washington based the mega mega um you know issue. And you know, like you said, this isn't the first time, this isn't the second time, this isn't the third time, and so why why we defending this guy? You know, I really don't get it. Yeah, and we continue to see a lack of consequences from the League office or at least pressure um or at least strong public statements when it pertains to owners. You know, we saw the Saints and owner Gayle Benson have ties to the Catholic Church pedophilia crisis. UM Robert Kraft with the massage parlors in Florida, UM Snyder. Uh. Obviously Jerry Richardson sold the team when the allegations came out directly against him. But I think the standard for there to be some kind of change or some kind of push for from the league, like they have very like high metric that they are they need to meet for. And I don't know exactly what that that level is that they would something would rise to the level of them commenting on it, But it just seems like the NFL has really retreated from this personal conduct policy particul cularly as it comes to owners. UM. And I think the after the Craft situation, it seems some around the league at least believe that that was kind of a softening of how the personal conduct policy was applied. UM. And so I think when you see situations continue to happen, UM, if you're not, like, if you're not standing up against it more forcefully, if you're allowing owners to create cultures that are unfriendly, I mean, I gotta be honest with you, Connor like this kind of stuff, UM brought up a lot of you know, feelings for me in terms of, like, yeah, I faced a lot of this my my career, right, not not did not team employee and I was not. You know, the women who are working for the team and have those experiences from their employees are different, but more along the lines of what the two female reporters spoke up against. You know, we've if you're a woman who works in this business, you're on the receiving end of inappropriate behavior or all the time, and you have to make these difficult navigations through that because you need sources for stories, you need to be able to do your job. And I think seeing this happen and just feeling like the response by both the team and the league was inadequate kind of makes me not want to cover the NFL. It kind of makes me not interested. You know. Um, it's really this kind of behavior overall over the last decade has really reduced my enjoyment of football, of the NFL and everything associated with it. And I think this story brought up a lot of similar feelings for women across the business. And I think that's really like it makes me sad. I couldn't agree more. And it's just like, you know, for me, this will be this is not going to come out exactly the way that I wanted to come out, and I'm just gonna be honest. But you know, for me, and hopefully for everybody that read that story, every man that read that story and read some of um the coverage that came out from it, there was something that's stuck with you that's like, holy crap, I don't have to worry about this in my life, you know, I don't have to experience this in my life. And listening to reporters talk about the thought that goes into how they need to dress before they go into the building, and it's like, it was heartbreaking to me, you know what I mean, and that that is part of your internal calculus when, for god, the ten years that I've been doing this job, I've just been throwing on a crappy sweatshirt and jeans and walking in there and didn't have to think twice about it. Like the privilege that that is that I don't even realize, you know. And I'm hoping that everybody just caught something that's stuck with them and just is embedded into the back of their brain to say, hey, the next time that I say, well, hey, it's a man's world and they need to dig blah blah blah. You know, just think about that, those little things that are going to stick in the back of your mind to say, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I have no idea what that's like. I have no idea about you know, the bravery it took to even try to do something like this knowing all the obstacles in your way and still doing it. And you know, that's that's what people are asking for right now, is is to let that stick in your mind and and and do that self evaluation, you know. And I hope that more people do, you know, And I don't know. It's uh, it's it's a bad day for the business. It's a bad day for the sport. And you know for fans thinking, hey, this doesn't matter, this doesn't affect me, You're you're dead wrong. I mean, it affects all aspects of life. And the NFL once again could be one of these great businesses that sticks up for things, that is on the forefront of societal change. This stuff is happening, whether people like it or not. You know, the revolution is on the way. You know, we are more cognizant than ever about how we're treating people, how we you know, all this kind of stuff. And to just say that I sat by and treaded water while this is all happening. It's gross for a billion dollar industry, but this affects all of us and just you know, if we wait up on an individual level, like we've seen with the recent sort of Uh, the protests and all that stuff. We can enact change and sometimes that's just thought patterns. And hopefully at the end of my long rambling point is this, it's just alter these thought patterns, think about things. Read that story again, and stick one of these things into the back of your mind and say that these people are real, They're real people, these are real problems. This is happening where you work too, and think about it, and uh, I don't know, that's my rambling point. Yeah, No, I mean I think that's exactly right. Connor like just being willing to acknowledge that you might have thought patterns that are subconscious that have been learned in a patriarchal society and putting the work time learned them, and that there may be things that you're doing that are totally unconscious and that you've simply absorbed by living in the society, similar to how we're doing as white people. Right, Connor like, we need to recognize the fact that we're living in a society where we are part of this systemic racism, and we need to self correct and identify our behaviors that may be contributing to that perpetuation of that system. Um and so I think that approach has been really helpful, I hope for a lot of people, especially over the last few months. I mean hopefully for longer than that, but especially over the last few months. And I think that's a really great way to look at it. When you're saying like, well, I'm not part of the problem, or it can't be me, or I don't think that way, but open your mind a little bit and think that there may be things that have been ingrained in you. And I think you know, the women that spoke up, whether they did so on the record or anonymously, both the team employees and the reporters had a lot of courage. Um, these are their careers and there could be an impact on their careers for saying something. And they did not put that first right. They put first what was right and trying to change the culture. And so I think the best way to recognize that effort is for everyone to kind of do an examination and to to think about ways in which they may be perpetuating a culture like this in in your workplace. So think about the flip side of it for a second. Right, if you're just a cis gender white dude like me, um, and this bothers you and it gets you upset. Um think about this way. I'm upset because if things change because of this, I won't be able to do X. And what is X? Like make terrible jokes, make my coworkers feel uncomfortable, objectify my coworkers, talk about the way my coworkers are looking what they're wearing at work. I mean, you know, that's what you're being asked not to do. That's it. That does not seem difficult. And if and if that is the main reason that you like to go to work every day, or you know that that's the company that you love to go and work for because you get to do that, then I think to seriously reevaluate your priorities. Like it's that simple. It's like nobody's asking you to do. Like you know, we're not asking you to take you know, sixteen credits at college credits to learn how to reverse any of this stuff. I mean, would it be great if more people put some work into it, sure, But like all we're asking is that you know, people are not as crappy to their coworkers in general, bottom line, you know, And to me, that just that's the hard thing for me to digest is like, if this is the hill you've chosen to die on, what does that say about you as a person? You know that, like I I can't stand for this societal change because I like making my coworkers uncomfortable. Like, really, come on, you know that? That to me just seems like a crazy hill to die on. I hope that these conversations are taking place in team facilities and continue to take place. UH. I've seen some players take the lead and say that they're going to speak up in their locker rooms and that they want to play an active role UM in that, and I think that's great, and I think it also needs to come from team leaders. It needs to come from owners, executives, needs to come from the people in power, because ultimately those are the ones that control jobs, that control cultures, UH, that allow these kinds of things to either be stamped out or to persist that okay certain behaviors or make it clear that they're not acceptable UM. And so i'd really I'm going to be interested in the coming months to see how seriously teams take this UM and UH, if there's actual active steps around the league to address UM this issue, because it might not be to the degree it was in the Washington organization, but some form of this exists everywhere, and I think that's a good starting point for teams to acknowledge it, not to say, oh, this doesn't happen here, to say it does and I just don't know about it. I haven't take it seriously or I don't know how to recognize it. So I think that's a good starting point for teams, no doubt. Yeah, And history is not going to let you avoid this, right. I mean, you know people are going to look back at this time in all aspects of life. But you know, if you're Washington, you know you're a bad franchise, You're a bad, unsuccessful organization for myriad reasons, and this is one of them. And it's not like you can go back in this time and point to this and say, well, we had a good culture. I mean, you didn't. And that's evident and obvious to everybody that's looking at this situation. So I don't know. I I hope that people realize that, like, you know, this is not just something that you wriggle out of. You know, it's time. It's time to put the work in a little bit especially for the people who are in charge of creating the culture, and here's the hoping they do absolutely well. Thanks for the conversation on this important subject, Connor, and we'll be back later this week for for more discussions. A lot of a lot of heavy topics this offseason, but you know it's good. That's what the week side podcast is here for, right, Yeah, what I was going to say, like the weak side strong something I don't know, but yeah, we we We've tackled a lot this summer, Jenny, this has been ahead. This has been a heavy summer. Yeah, yeah, it definitely has. It's good. What did we say, cut the cut the ship or something something along those lines. I forget our own slogan, Connor. One is the year of or Ventis and America just get there. Well, thanks everyone for listening. As always, the mm QB week Side Podcast is me, Jenny Frentis and Connor or. We are produced by Shelby Royston. Sis. Executive producer of podcasts is Scott Rody, Ben Eagles, Director of Editorial Projects and product Mark Mravik is a meritus executive director of the mm QB. Keep up with our entire lineup of podcasts five days a week by subscribing to the mm QB NFL podcast for free on Apple Podcasts, and while you're there, please do us a favor and leave a reading and review. It really does help other people find the show, which is also available on Spotify Radio dot com, Stitcher, si dot com, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. M m HM

Hello, and welcome back to the week Side Podcast. I'm Jenny Frentis. I'm here with Connor or as always, although I hear a rumor that Connor's daughter may soon be my new co host, which I'm really pushing forward to happen um and I think that the listeners would enjoy that as well. What do you think, Connor? Yes, So we were the other day, my wife and I look, you know, we're both working in the kitchen living room space, and we looked like, where did the baby go? And we heard her rustling around in the office down the hallway. We opened the door. She was up in the podcast chair with the microphone and she said, I'm talking to Jenny. So you know, she's ready to go. And I think that she's had some fair complaints about my performance on the last few podcasts and and she's ready to stick her nose in and uh and give it a shot. So you know, I'm all for it. You know, she's she's ready. You know, Well, we were testing it out behind the scenes, but unfortunately the cats out of the bag. So we'll be uh, we'll be sure to announce any relevant changes in the coming weeks as long as we have one or on the podcast. I think we're in good shape, right, no matter who it is. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've I've I've been feeling the pressure. Um, you know, she's been nipping at my heels now for a long time. And it's it's a natural passage of time. You know. It's like, what didn't the younger Golic take over for the older Golic on ESPN Radio, so that this kind of stuff happens in the business, you know. There you go. Very gracious for you wanting your daughter to have an opportunity. All right. We are recording today on Monday afternoon, and as of now, the full rules for the NFL's returned to Camp return to play, all the protocols have not yet been worked out yet, so we are going to delay discussing that until there's a little bit more of a tangible resolution. I will say that it's kind of crazy we're at this juncture and time without things getting worked out. Obviously, when you know the time comes and there's a lot of pressure and there's a deadline, that's usually when agreements get reached. Um. But over the last few months, the NFL has been intent on moving forward and I think now we're at the point in time where it's like, well, if you want to move forward, you need to have worked out X, Y and Z, And I think the country is probably in a different place than most of us expected we would be in in mid July UM, which I think should have been factored into any any plans moving forward. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know if the you know, I'm sure we all thought, you know, this is going to get better. But if you're the NFL and you have a disaster preparedness team and you're as steeped in politics and the realities of our current political situation as they are, um, you didn't think maybe this was a possibility that like things were gonna get worse and we might not embrace the virus, especially in an election year when it might hurt somebody's poll numbers. I don't know. I mean, you know, this is the kind of stuff that there are people making a lot of money that there that's their job to anticipate. And while I don't know if it's totally fair to say the NFL had this long head start and they blew it blah blah blah, I mean, I think part of that is true, but the the anticipatory part of it that hey, well everything will be better by July. I mean, whoever's job that was, I mean wow, I mean, you know, you really need to be a little bit more aware of the current situation here. I mean, you know, this is We're not gonna have high school football in Texas this year. We're not gonna high school football in California this year. UM. Florida is one of the worst UM states right now in terms of surgeon cases. So we in the three biggest high school football states in the country, we might not have high school football. Like, think about that. UM. And you know, here here's the NFL ten days before training camp saying Okay, I guess we gotta start figuring some of this out. Yeah, I mean we uh, we do, absolutely, And I agree with you, Connor. It's a little bit more nuanced than saying simply the NFL had a head start and blew it. But you have the players on the eve of camp feeling concerned for their safety, rightly so having a coordinated social media campaign, so obviously that's unacceptable. You know, it's We've expressed our concerns through the process about the league's desire to just kind of forge ahead with this plan to play. But if you're going to do that, you need to make sure you have everything buttoned up. And it's clear that that is not the case. Did you notice by the way that you know, there were most of the players who did the post as it seemed to be written right, I mean, there was a framework right of of a general post um that the players expressing conservat for their safety. But then there was like one or two players who, you know, it's almost like they adjusted the post so as not to look like they were one of the players posting, but so they could pacify both the NFL p A and maybe there I don't know, let's say, uh red meat favoring uh fan base. Uh WEE will leave it at that, but I would encourage people to look at some of the posts because there is sort of that union vibe from all the players, and then there's you know, sort of that there are good people on both sides sort of posting that's been going on from some people, which I thought was interesting, especially given what has been happening in the recent past. So good to keep an eye on if your fellow players, to make sure you know who's posting what? So Okay, Well, now I'm extremely curious. I was trying to lay a little bit low on social media this weekend. I did see some of the posts, but I didn't um really linger as much as maybe I should have. So now I've got to go back. I do enjoy when Connor drops some clues on things. Uh, generally there's an interesting result on the other side. But so since everything is not resolved yet, we're going to come back to this later in the week and talk a little bit more in depth about where things stand. But one topic we have not covered on the podcast that is very important and top of mind for every one in the NFL is the Washington Post story last week that was written by Will Hobson and Liz Clark, and it was a very thoroughly reported investigation into the culture in the Washington NFL team. They spoke to more than forty people current and former team employees, and fifteen former Washington employees told the newspaper that they were sexually harassed during their time at the club. One spoke on the record, and the other fourteen spoke onto the condition of anonymity. They were afraid that the NBA agreements they signed with the team UM would have legal consequences, and the team also refused to release them from those NDAs, which ends are incredibly problematic and should not exist in any company or industry, and that's certainly something that has come to light. It's been a push of several media unions in the last year. Elizabeth Warren pushed for it during the the the debates this spring for the primaries, so it's certainly an important issue as well. But really a bright light shine on UM, what the culture can be inside some NFL teams and the amount of women willing to speak to the outlet to detail their experiences, which is not an easy thing to do UM, was really stunning. Connor, I mean that this was so widespread UM, and that there were so many corroborating accounts for UM what they shared. And in addition to the team employees, there were two reporters to female reporters UM who spoke on the record UM, both Ryan and Walker who works for the Athletic and Nora Princati who works for The Ringer Now, who detailed their experiences with one team employee UM acting inappropriately towards them and the sexual harassment that they experienced. UM. Certainly, this report, I think Connor has had UH waves throughout the league. I think there's a lot of people that are questioning their conduct, that are wondering if it's happening in their organizations. UM. I mean I know of some of that that's going on, but I certainly hope that it's widespread. I hope these conversations are taking place in every building. I hope there is a reckoning. UM. I hope this is not one of those things that generates a lot of attention when it first comes out but then fades to the back, which all too often happens in the NFL. Yeah, and you know, just to say the bravery associated with and I've talked to male colleagues and female colleagues about, um, this story since it's come out, and I think the thing that blows my mind to this point still is the insane bravery that it takes to detail uh, that kind of brand of harassment that happens to you for so many reasons, right, I mean, this is still as far as we've come as a society, not a culture that's friendly and arms wide open when it comes to women detailing these issues. Even though they're prevalent across you know, any industry and to to to know the blowback and to you know, anticipate the blowback that you're going to get um it and still be willing to stick up for all of your fellow female employees who want football, you know, to be an inclusive environment. You know, this is a game that's changing. It's not this boys club that started in the nineteen twenties. This is these are big businesses and you know, I don't know, I was. I was amazed by their bravery there Grayson sharing these stories, and like you said, I hope we can look at it and think, okay, because it's not just the top of the iceberg stuff. It's not the headline grabbing things. It's what's below the surface. Did I ever do anything that made somebody uncomfortable? Uh? Is there a way that I acted that? And and just that self inventory, that self reflection, that's what this time is for. You know, ask yourself read this and say, beyond the extreme things that are in here, what have I done to maybe make a female employee feel less comfortable, coworker to feel less comfortable, less included, less involved? And you know, is there a way to rectify that situation. And you know, people just get immediately defensive when stuff like this comes out, when all anyone is asking is to take stock, you know, ask yourself what your hand in this has been. Have you ever done anything like this? Do you know somebody? You know? Are you enabling the behavior of somebody that's acting like this? And you know, you hope that the brilliant reporting here, the bravery from the women coming forward, can can lead to some change. Yeah, And I think what you described, Connor, the reaction generally is one of two things. It's either defensiveness, um, you know, I couldn't have been a part of this, or blaming the women, or some combination of those things. Um. And the other response that I've encountered a little bit is very well meaning men who don't understand how this is possible because they've never acted in this way, right. And so I think that the combination of those two things can sometimes make it difficult because there are a lot of well meaning men that have cannot fathom experiencing sexual harassment or cannot fathom delivering sexual harassment, and so they may be unaware that it's going on or how pervasive it is because it's not something that they can fully understand UM. And so I think that there's a lot that needs to be done to break through kind of these cultures that are so persistent. UM. I. I think about the way that there's been a lot of really positive developments with anti racist readings, anti racism education, and I think that same effort would be really helpful if applied to misogyny, UM, if applied to harassment UM. I think looking at something under the context of saying, you've been raised in a society and there may be things that you've unconsciously absorbed that you don't realize that you're doing UM. Or maybe there are ways that you can actively work against the problem more even if you don't believe you're part of the problem. I think those two steps would go a long way. The other concern that I have with how this is being handled is, of course the fact that Washington has hired the outside investigator. Yes, it's an outside person that has experienced doing workplace investigations, but when you're hired by Washington, that mely compromises your ability to do the job. And I was really surprised by that. I was surprised that the NFL just seemed to say, hey, well, listen to what the outside investigator that they've hired fines and will act accordingly. Um. That to me is not a strong enough response. UM. You know, especially for an organization that, when confronted by these allegations before the story went to press, did decline to release women from the NDA s. And so you have a lot of questions about how that will be handled in the investigation process. UM. And the continued unwillingness to perhaps acknowledge the behaviors and the culture that leaders, particularly Daniel Snyder UM, are responsible for allowing to persist. It's funny because and I don't ever want to equate this with winning and losing. And I hope keep me keep me on on on the rails here on this. But like, if you're the CEO of a company, especially a company that is judged by wins and losses, it's just stupid to not care about this kind of stuff. Like a United organization is a successful organization, and you know, I think that that's fairly true across the board, and like why wouldn't you want to make your company better and less toxic? And you know, and across the board, and you know, the stubbornness when it comes to anything, but especially something as serious as this blows my mind. You know, this is actively an organization that is just devouring itself from the inside. And you know, if you come to work uncomfortable every day, that's going to affect everything everything around you. If you come to work as somebody who makes other people uncomfortable, it's going to affect everybody around you. And it's like, why why do we have such a blind spot for this as compared to any other thing that is affecting, you know, the the wellness of the company me you know, you know what I'm saying. And it's just like, why wouldn't you care about this? I mean, like you said, hiring a non independent investigator is just going to tell you exactly what you want to hear and you're gonna move on and you're gonna keep having this toxicity fester in your organization. And so to me, that doesn't make sense. It's just like the lack of willingness to get better on any front is startling, but especially this front, I think is like one of those things that's like why are we still holding out um the idea that this is an important or I don't need to be bothered by this. I think that's exactly right, Connor, because look at the ease at which come or NFL teams organizations tried to cleanse themselves from a coach that lost a lot. Right, there's this immediate like we're gonna go change everything. We always laugh about the ping pong tables and the pool tables and the locker room. They either go in or they go out, whatever the opposite of the previous coach was. Right, there's always this commitment that we're restarting, we're building something new here. Um because teams believe that that has a direct impact on wins and losses and the way that female employees are treated in an organization. People say, oh, maybe their business side employees and they're not coaching. But what people fail to realize is that that will make you less likely to have a healthy culture. As you said, that affects everybody, and there are women who serve in football side roles. There's female coaches, there's female scouts, female executives on the football side, female PR officials, female trainers, any aspect of the organization. So the idea that this this doesn't affect how successful your team is. Is is a backwards notion, but also the idea that this is just something separate and that it shouldn't be treated with the same care as the culture that a head coach installs is incredibly frustrating. Yeah, frustrating on multiple ends. And you know, speaking of which, I mean, the head coach is basically the only one that's come out and talked about this, and all this stuff happened before he got there, you know, and for for it's it's mind boggling to me that somebody would be uh you know, blessed enough to own an NFL franchise and to spend this little time being emotionally invested in how the organizations perceived and and how the organization functions. I mean, NFL coaches, as we've seen time and time again, are not equipped to talk about this kind of stuff, as much as we wish that they were. There's always that uh fallback. What did Ron Rivera say, Well, my daughter works for the team, so I wanted to be better. You know, there's always that mail, um, that immediate mail twitch to go, I have a daughter, I have a mom, I have a sister, and or a grandmother and it's like you're missing the point. You know, it's it. And to force Ron to just be the only person to talk about this and to come out and be the voice of this, I think has been ridiculous and absurd. And if anybody thinks that this does not affect everything that's going on, you're out of your mind. If you work for a company, even if you work for I'm not going to list a company too, and for that something is going on there. But see, you work at a massive corporation with hundreds of thousands of employees. If there is a reputation for sexual assault or anything that makes employees feel uncomfortable in one corner of the office, that is going to affect the way that everything works. Because it's what you feel when you walk in the door. It's that vibe, it's that unconscious uncomfortability. Um uh, you know, whatever it is you want to call it, and that exists. That's a real thing. And if you think that doesn't matter, look at the successful organizations and football and anywhere in business, see how they treat their employees, and look at the unsuccessful ones. And it's fairly easy, I would guess, to h to pluck out the good from the bad and how they react to things like this. Yeah, and let's go back to the owner for a second, because I think this is really an important point. As you said, didn't comment publicly, like, didn't do any interviews, right, UM wrote an inadequate letter to team employees that didn't apologize to the women. Just a complete abdication of responsibility. In my opinion, there's no way that you can't take this head on. And this is one of many things. This is not just one incident, right, I mean, in there was the revelation that a team executive sold access to Washington cheerleaders. I'm bringing from the Washington Post story. They referenced the previous reporting by The Times UM as part of premium suite packages. Right, that happened in then we have the situation with a team name where it was only pressure from sponsors that forced him to change it. UM. You know, Michael Rosenberg and I reported on this sham foundation that he created that didn't follow through on the mission that it said it was and essentially was a pr push for allowing them to keep the name UM. And then you have this, right, you have a rampant sexual harassment within the organization on your watch. And you know what coaches always say, Connor, you're either coaching it or you're allowing it to happen. So let's apply that football standards to the football team owner, right. So, I just if you're another owner in the league, I don't know how there isn't pressure. And when I read the NFL statement Friday morning after the story came out, I thought, you know what, They're not going to do anything. That he's just going to be allowed to keep the team. And I think there's been too many knocks against him, sexism, harassment, UM, racism affiliated with either him or team employees. But that all he should answer to all of that, right, UM. And I don't know why there aren't consequences, And I think it's ridiculous that that there isn't a consequence, that there isn't more pushback on that, UM. And I think it's uh, it's incredibly disappointing that I thought. I thought the league's response was disappointing Connor. And not that this matters, but one of the most universally sort of disliked owners, I mean, somebody that if you went back and you trace the lineage of the last twenty five years of rapid growth in football. I mean, you know, anything that you read, it's not like this person is a champion of any of innovation of any kind that is helping drive this league forward. And I say that because it's like, why are they why are they choosing this hill to die, and why are they picking this guy to defend and say we're not going to do anything about you know, I mean, they should do any they should, they should do the right thing regardless. But there, I don't know, hesitancy, whatever you want to call it, lack of a plan. UM is especially strange considering that you know, why, why this guy? Why are you sticking up for this guy? You know? And I don't know, and it just it doesn't make any sense to me. I I would I would guess that you could tell the story of the NFL over the last twenty five years with or without Daniel Snyder. It's not like this. He is a person that is integral to UM this the last twenty five years of NFL football and and at least in at least in my opinion, and uh so, I I'm just surprised that you know there isn't more of a push to say, you know what I mean, we can be a better league without this guy, you know, And why don't we just put someone in who's going to care about anything, I mean, any aspect of the team culture so that we can stop every four years having some sort of Washington based the mega mega um you know issue. And you know, like you said, this isn't the first time, this isn't the second time, this isn't the third time, and so why why we defending this guy? You know, I really don't get it. Yeah, and we continue to see a lack of consequences from the League office or at least pressure um or at least strong public statements when it pertains to owners. You know, we saw the Saints and owner Gayle Benson have ties to the Catholic Church pedophilia crisis. UM Robert Kraft with the massage parlors in Florida, UM Snyder. Uh. Obviously Jerry Richardson sold the team when the allegations came out directly against him. But I think the standard for there to be some kind of change or some kind of push for from the league, like they have very like high metric that they are they need to meet for. And I don't know exactly what that that level is that they would something would rise to the level of them commenting on it, But it just seems like the NFL has really retreated from this personal conduct policy particul cularly as it comes to owners. UM. And I think the after the Craft situation, it seems some around the league at least believe that that was kind of a softening of how the personal conduct policy was applied. UM. And so I think when you see situations continue to happen, UM, if you're not, like, if you're not standing up against it more forcefully, if you're allowing owners to create cultures that are unfriendly, I mean, I gotta be honest with you, Connor like this kind of stuff, UM brought up a lot of you know, feelings for me in terms of, like, yeah, I faced a lot of this my my career, right, not not did not team employee and I was not. You know, the women who are working for the team and have those experiences from their employees are different, but more along the lines of what the two female reporters spoke up against. You know, we've if you're a woman who works in this business, you're on the receiving end of inappropriate behavior or all the time, and you have to make these difficult navigations through that because you need sources for stories, you need to be able to do your job. And I think seeing this happen and just feeling like the response by both the team and the league was inadequate kind of makes me not want to cover the NFL. It kind of makes me not interested. You know. Um, it's really this kind of behavior overall over the last decade has really reduced my enjoyment of football, of the NFL and everything associated with it. And I think this story brought up a lot of similar feelings for women across the business. And I think that's really like it makes me sad. I couldn't agree more. And it's just like, you know, for me, this will be this is not going to come out exactly the way that I wanted to come out, and I'm just gonna be honest. But you know, for me, and hopefully for everybody that read that story, every man that read that story and read some of um the coverage that came out from it, there was something that's stuck with you that's like, holy crap, I don't have to worry about this in my life, you know, I don't have to experience this in my life. And listening to reporters talk about the thought that goes into how they need to dress before they go into the building, and it's like, it was heartbreaking to me, you know what I mean, and that that is part of your internal calculus when, for god, the ten years that I've been doing this job, I've just been throwing on a crappy sweatshirt and jeans and walking in there and didn't have to think twice about it. Like the privilege that that is that I don't even realize, you know. And I'm hoping that everybody just caught something that's stuck with them and just is embedded into the back of their brain to say, hey, the next time that I say, well, hey, it's a man's world and they need to dig blah blah blah. You know, just think about that, those little things that are going to stick in the back of your mind to say, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I have no idea what that's like. I have no idea about you know, the bravery it took to even try to do something like this knowing all the obstacles in your way and still doing it. And you know, that's that's what people are asking for right now, is is to let that stick in your mind and and and do that self evaluation, you know. And I hope that more people do, you know, And I don't know. It's uh, it's it's a bad day for the business. It's a bad day for the sport. And you know for fans thinking, hey, this doesn't matter, this doesn't affect me, You're you're dead wrong. I mean, it affects all aspects of life. And the NFL once again could be one of these great businesses that sticks up for things, that is on the forefront of societal change. This stuff is happening, whether people like it or not. You know, the revolution is on the way. You know, we are more cognizant than ever about how we're treating people, how we you know, all this kind of stuff. And to just say that I sat by and treaded water while this is all happening. It's gross for a billion dollar industry, but this affects all of us and just you know, if we wait up on an individual level, like we've seen with the recent sort of Uh, the protests and all that stuff. We can enact change and sometimes that's just thought patterns. And hopefully at the end of my long rambling point is this, it's just alter these thought patterns, think about things. Read that story again, and stick one of these things into the back of your mind and say that these people are real, They're real people, these are real problems. This is happening where you work too, and think about it, and uh, I don't know, that's my rambling point. Yeah, No, I mean I think that's exactly right. Connor like just being willing to acknowledge that you might have thought patterns that are subconscious that have been learned in a patriarchal society and putting the work time learned them, and that there may be things that you're doing that are totally unconscious and that you've simply absorbed by living in the society, similar to how we're doing as white people. Right, Connor like, we need to recognize the fact that we're living in a society where we are part of this systemic racism, and we need to self correct and identify our behaviors that may be contributing to that perpetuation of that system. Um and so I think that approach has been really helpful, I hope for a lot of people, especially over the last few months. I mean hopefully for longer than that, but especially over the last few months. And I think that's a really great way to look at it. When you're saying like, well, I'm not part of the problem, or it can't be me, or I don't think that way, but open your mind a little bit and think that there may be things that have been ingrained in you. And I think you know, the women that spoke up, whether they did so on the record or anonymously, both the team employees and the reporters had a lot of courage. Um, these are their careers and there could be an impact on their careers for saying something. And they did not put that first right. They put first what was right and trying to change the culture. And so I think the best way to recognize that effort is for everyone to kind of do an examination and to to think about ways in which they may be perpetuating a culture like this in in your workplace. So think about the flip side of it for a second. Right, if you're just a cis gender white dude like me, um, and this bothers you and it gets you upset. Um think about this way. I'm upset because if things change because of this, I won't be able to do X. And what is X? Like make terrible jokes, make my coworkers feel uncomfortable, objectify my coworkers, talk about the way my coworkers are looking what they're wearing at work. I mean, you know, that's what you're being asked not to do. That's it. That does not seem difficult. And if and if that is the main reason that you like to go to work every day, or you know that that's the company that you love to go and work for because you get to do that, then I think to seriously reevaluate your priorities. Like it's that simple. It's like nobody's asking you to do. Like you know, we're not asking you to take you know, sixteen credits at college credits to learn how to reverse any of this stuff. I mean, would it be great if more people put some work into it, sure, But like all we're asking is that you know, people are not as crappy to their coworkers in general, bottom line, you know, And to me, that just that's the hard thing for me to digest is like, if this is the hill you've chosen to die on, what does that say about you as a person? You know that, like I I can't stand for this societal change because I like making my coworkers uncomfortable. Like, really, come on, you know that? That to me just seems like a crazy hill to die on. I hope that these conversations are taking place in team facilities and continue to take place. UH. I've seen some players take the lead and say that they're going to speak up in their locker rooms and that they want to play an active role UM in that, and I think that's great, and I think it also needs to come from team leaders. It needs to come from owners, executives, needs to come from the people in power, because ultimately those are the ones that control jobs, that control cultures, UH, that allow these kinds of things to either be stamped out or to persist that okay certain behaviors or make it clear that they're not acceptable UM. And so i'd really I'm going to be interested in the coming months to see how seriously teams take this UM and UH, if there's actual active steps around the league to address UM this issue, because it might not be to the degree it was in the Washington organization, but some form of this exists everywhere, and I think that's a good starting point for teams to acknowledge it, not to say, oh, this doesn't happen here, to say it does and I just don't know about it. I haven't take it seriously or I don't know how to recognize it. So I think that's a good starting point for teams, no doubt. Yeah, And history is not going to let you avoid this, right. I mean, you know people are going to look back at this time in all aspects of life. But you know, if you're Washington, you know you're a bad franchise, You're a bad, unsuccessful organization for myriad reasons, and this is one of them. And it's not like you can go back in this time and point to this and say, well, we had a good culture. I mean, you didn't. And that's evident and obvious to everybody that's looking at this situation. So I don't know. I I hope that people realize that, like, you know, this is not just something that you wriggle out of. You know, it's time. It's time to put the work in a little bit especially for the people who are in charge of creating the culture, and here's the hoping they do absolutely well. Thanks for the conversation on this important subject, Connor, and we'll be back later this week for for more discussions. A lot of a lot of heavy topics this offseason, but you know it's good. That's what the week side podcast is here for, right, Yeah, what I was going to say, like the weak side strong something I don't know, but yeah, we we We've tackled a lot this summer, Jenny, this has been ahead. This has been a heavy summer. Yeah, yeah, it definitely has. It's good. What did we say, cut the cut the ship or something something along those lines. I forget our own slogan, Connor. One is the year of or Ventis and America just get there. Well, thanks everyone for listening. As always, the mm QB week Side Podcast is me, Jenny Frentis and Connor or. We are produced by Shelby Royston. Sis. Executive producer of podcasts is Scott Rody, Ben Eagles, Director of Editorial Projects and product Mark Mravik is a meritus executive director of the mm QB. Keep up with our entire lineup of podcasts five days a week by subscribing to the mm QB NFL podcast for free on Apple Podcasts, and while you're there, please do us a favor and leave a reading and review. It really does help other people find the show, which is also available on Spotify Radio dot com, Stitcher, si dot com, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. M m HM