Hey everyone, I'm Mitch Goldich and welcome back to the mm QB NFL Podcast. It is Friday, so normally at this time we'd be doing our weekend review show with the whole team here, but instead, today we have a special episode with a special guest. She is no stranger to our subscribers on the mm QBI podcast feed. It is Kalin Kaylor Klin is here to talk about a three part story that she wrote for the MQB this week on the unusual post retirement story of former Packers star Kabir Gbaja Biamilia. And that's me just putting it as as lightly as I can. We'll get into all the crazy details and the twist and turns here from Kalin. But Kaylin, hello, how are you? Hey? I'm back. What's up? You're back. It's good to see you. We've got the zoom going here. I haven't seen you actually in a while outside of Instagram, so this is nice exactly. It's good to be back in the with the MMQB pals um. So we're gonna talk all the story, which was a massive undertaking three days and all three of them were lengthy. I think the editor we broke it up into three chapters, not three parts, which tells you the half of the overall story. Um. But for those who haven't read it, I'd recommend going and checking it out and reading it. But for anyone who's listening to this first and then reading it after, Calin, can you just sort of summarize the story for us, oh, I will try. Um. So, basically, Kabir Basha Biamila known as kgb he um when he retired from the Packers, he was their all time sack leader, so he's pretty well known um among Packers fans, and he chose to stay and make a home in Green Bay in post retirement, and he kind of became like a local icon. Um. You know, people when Packers players stay and choose to live in Green Bay, they kind of become like, you know a little bit famous and like really beloved in the community because it's such a small town. So he really like found a found his home there and he had eight kids with his wife there and they were very established, really involved in the church been um. You know, he had a reputation as like a Christian, good Christian man, family man, all of that. And this past December, um, he there was an incident that happened with a Christmas program with a private Christmas school at Christmas School, Christian School in Green Bay, and this kind of was the turning point where everyone in the community realized what is really going on in his post retirement life now. So at this Christmas program, just to sum it up, he had so Kaber had gotten involved with a religious group that follows like the Old Testament laws and the Commandments, and they don't identify as Christian anymore. Um though. They are a biblicitly based group that they sort of hate Christians and a lot of the videos that they put out a very judgmental of Christianity and they call Christians hypocrites and things like that. So um Beer did not want his children to be part of a Christmas program because the group that he's now involved in they don't believe in Christmas. They think Christmas the pagan holiday. So he although he hadn't seen his kids in two years, he did not want them to be part of this Christmas program. So he sent um two of the men who are part of his community. He's basically running like a branch of this ministry in Green Bay, and he sent two of those men to the to the school's Christmas program to collect evidence like photo or video. This isn't his words to collect photo or video of his kids being part of this pagan ritual, so that I don't know what he planned to do with it later, but he just wanted to proof because he without his consent, his property, he calls his kids his property, his property were being used without his content. So he sent these two guys there. And because there had been like a lot of turmoil over this with the headmaster between Kaper and Master in the past, headmaster recognized these two guys that were part of capers group, and he was really uncomfortable because he kind of thought something might happen, things might boil over, there might be some kind of, you know, disagreement, and he wasn't sure why they were there, so he calls the police. These two guys end up getting arrested because they were carrying a concealed weapon to a school event without a permit to carry a concealed weapon. So they end up getting arrested and it all comes out as to why they were there, because Caper had sent them there because he doesn't believe in Christmas. And then it all comes, you know, and then the story sort of unfolded from there. So UM our previous editor, Jack Dickie, who was at Sports Illustrated UM at the time in December, he sent me this news story and he was like, this is extremely weird because Coper did an interview at the time where he was seeing he was part of this religious group and the word cult was getting thrown around, and I was just like, this is fascinating, Like we need to find out what's going on, and we need to find out more. And yeah, and so you mentioned the word cult there and and just to paint people a full picture, you say a religious group, but I mean this is a group that you you mentioned they hate Christianity, but like to paint the picture of this, they have a pastor who's doing all, you know, an endless stream of YouTube videos with assault rifles in the background. This is a group where there are and you detail this in the piece, rampant allegations of abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, their anti gay, anti women, uh you know, speaking poorly, have a lot of groups and proudly doing this in their video that this is just that this is what they believe and feeling like there's nothing wrong with that and nothing that they need to hide. So this is uh, you know, not just a religious group, but this is really uh you know that gives you like and you were very careful both in the piece and in your tweets not to call it a cult, but your I saw like your tweets were worded a group that many people believe is a cult, and just being very careful with how you word everything. But this is uh, you know, more of a fringe group than sort of a mainstream religious group, right, And the word cult is like not politically correct even to begin with, but like we all we all kind of like know what we mean when we say cult, but it's sort of like one of those words that like doesn't really have like a true definition, but it's like we all kind of like know what it means and it sort of implies something, so like the term not academics will use as a new religious movement. Um and Kaper actually took issue with that term. He did a live stream about the story where he was sort of like breaking down the parts of the story that he thought, you know, his thoughts on what we wrote about him, um and he took issue with that because he was like, how are we a new religious movement because we use the Bible, the Bible as two thousand years old, which yes, that's true. But like this group, it's more than just biblically based. It's you know, there's some anti government ideas. There are um, you know, preppers. They're preppers, so they're preparing for the end of the world. They're storing food, they're you know, they're doing a lot of different sort of like trendy things that are like all from different sorts. Some of them are like totally secular, like prep prepping is I guess can be like a secular idea. So they're not just like Hebrew Israelites. There are a lot more than that. UM And it's the timing of when the story came out. This is a whole other tangent, but it was really interesting because of Shaun Jackson's comments um last week or two weeks ago, and then Nick Cannon's comments and he is fired from his role at viacom Um. Both of them made anti Semitic comments that were about Hebrew Israelism and the belief that black people are the chosen people of the Bible, and that the Jewish people stole that identity from them, And it was really interesting to me that like that happened as the story is coming out, because that's part of this story as well, Like that's part of this religious group's beliefs, um and I think a lot of that is part of like this whole moment that we're in right now with like kind of I don't know if like a racial awakening is like the right term for it, but after George Floyd, you know, um, black people really learning about their history and learning about um, you know, their identity and everything, and I think this religious group is really tied with that. So this story is like so fascinating because there's race, there's masculinity, there's religion, there's um, you know, retirement issues with NFL play years. I mean, there's just everything combined into one one person's religious journey basically. Yeah, and you're you're totally right about the timing with DeShawn Jackson and Nick Cannon, and you mentioned in the piece there are two other NFL players who belong to the same community that KGB does. And then you also have in the piece that NFL team Chaplains and another tangent KGB had sort of a contentious relationship with the Packers team chaplain and they would talk about religion and really get into it. But a different chaplains around the league are concerned that this is a movement that a lot of current or at least former NFL players are getting swept up into. And and again, you're right about masculinity, and and multiple people in the piece I think made the point that a lot of these football players believe in structure, and they have these strong, uh you know, leader figures in their lives as football coaches their whole lives, and then all of a sudden they retire and they lose the structure and the schedule, and they're looking for that sort of masculine, out outfit, masculine figure in their life. And so that's one of the things this you know, group that's putting down women and talking about their kids and their wives as property that it's appealing to. And again, we don't want to generalize too much. Not every NFL players like this, but there is a segment that's coming out of the league, coming out of the military, who are looking for structure and masculinity and find some of these teachings to be appealing there like a great audience for this kind of message. Basically, yeah, And Caber put that in his own words, he without even me really asking that question, he just said that. In our six hour long marathon interview. Um, he did bring up that he the leader of this group of Straight with Truth ministry is Pastor Charles Dowell. And he's very manly, you know, he's his body language is very mucho. His words are very blunt, he's very direct. He does a lot of shouting, he does a lot of like he doesn't sugarcoat anything. So Caper pointed that out and said, he feels like a coach. He feels like that figure that had been that authoritative figure in his life for so long that I think he was probably looking for again. And he made the clear comparison. He grew up Muslim. His father was Muslim, Um kabir father. And in the Muslim faith, Um, you know, men are at the front of the mosque and women are at the back. And and Kabir made that comparison. He was like Christianity is so feminine compared to that, Like He's like Christian pastors are so feminine, Like there's just this feminine spirit with Christianity. So for him, it was really important to get back to that sort of like men over here, women over here. We're going to keep the roles separate. We're gonna have a real man's man to use his words, he said, man's man um leading us. So that is a whole other You know, the reason why this message that straightway Truth is preaching is you know something that former NFL players are interested in. It appeals to them. So I do want to ask you about the six hour interview you're sitting down with KGB. But let's start at the very beginning. You talked about Jack Dickie gave you the first story and then you decided you want to investigate. I'm what's the first step? I mean where what was the first bit of reporting that you did and at what? At what point did you realize how big this story would be, the time commitment and even just knowing it would come in at over twenty words? Like, where where did you start and when did this become such a huge undertaking? Yeah? Um, so he sent me the news story probably like late December, I think I remember it was like around Christmas time, and he was like, you know, check this out. No rush, but like, let's this would be really interesting. I think there's something here. And this was right at the end of the NFL season, So the Packers made the playoffs, so they were going to be heading into a couple of playoff games. Um, they hosted the first one at Lambeo, so I was around there. I was planning to be around there already to be reporting on the Packers getting geting up for the playoffs. So I was like, you know what, this is actually perfect, Like while I'm up there, I can like figure out what this story is. So the first thing that I did, I think was I just started watching his YouTube channel first, because with a story like this, you're always like afraid to like each out to someone too early before you know anything, and like maybe you say the wrong thing and then they don't want to talk to you, um and they and you just sort of like wasted your one shot with a source, right, And this story is so sensitive and like weird that I was really careful with like the order of like how I wanted to do things. So I I think I just started by like really just streaming his YouTube videos. And I remember driving up to Green Bay. Um, I would just play his videos in the car and I could get through like five, you know, and I was like, oh wow, I learned a lot. Like and the thing about this story that made the reporting process so interesting was that everything was out there. Literally, everything was out there. I just had to watch it all and I had to follow up on the things that I saw. But like the fact that Robert Mathis was part of this group that was on YouTube this whole time, like, and I didn't find it on my own. Someone had to sort of like point me that way. They were like, hey, he's not the only one. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Because I was probably like a month and at this point and I hadn't I hadn't gotten that far on YouTube. So it was either like prompting from people for me to watch certain videos or but it was literally all there. And that's why I was paranoid as a reporter during this process because I'm like, if anyone else wanted to do this story, like, yes, it takes a lot of time, but it's like it's on YouTube, Like everything is on YouTube. You just have to like be organized and be watching it and like reaching out to people. Um So yeah, I think the first thing I did was watch the YouTube videos. Then I actually had a friend of my mom's knows a family who went to that school, whose kids went to that school, So I was able to get connected with like parents of that school first just to kind of get like the background of like what is going on here, And a lot of them knew a lot about could be a story because you know, it's a small town and that school is very small. There's only like a hundred or like two hundred something students that go there, so there's a very small school community. So these parents, um, they knew a lot about his story. So I was able to learn a lot about him and like what was going on and how the community viewed him from the school parents, and then from there it just went wild, and I think I knew right away. And I went to the police departments there too. Like I would go from like open locker room for like playoff reporting, and then I would go to the police department and be like, hey, what do you guys got? You know, like we talked on background, like can we talk about the record? Um? So it was really interesting reporting process. And so the beginning I was kind of like working in Green Bay like people sources in Green Bay, and then after that, UM, it was more like branching out to um. You know, once I found out Robert Mathis was in it, you know, Colts, people you know and people who know him and former teammates was another thing I did. UM. One of the first things I did was reached out to the former teammates because I wanted to understand who Kaber was before he got into this, and I knew that they would be probably far enough away from it to be able to talk about it, but also close enough to him to really speak to who he was. So former teammates was one of the first things that I did to just to like figure out who he was. And that was so important to like understanding how he got to where he is now because you can see it step by step by step because he was always like he was like fanatic about Christianity and was known for that, So you can see incrementally how he got to where he is now from the conversations with former teammates. That was really helpful. Yeah, And I think that's what made the story so good because it wasn't just here's a story about this incident involving career with his kids and what he's up to now, you really you painted the whole picture. And talking to i'm on Green, I mean, these are recognizable names. Those are packers, teams, some of these guys you talked to, and hearing about his interactions. You talked to Mike Sherman, I know, and Um just hearing about what he was like with the chaplain as a player helped paint the full picture. So you did you talk to him for a long time? How much reporting had you done when you first reached out to him directly to set up an interview? Everything was done. We saved that for last. We saved him Robert Mathis and Daniel Muir and Pastor Dowell who never talked to me. We were saving them for last because you want to have all the information that you can and you want to be like really organized. I knew that he knew that I was doing the story, like I figured he would find out immediately. Like once I talked to Um i'm on Green, I was like, all right, he knows, you know what I mean, Like because they're still friends, and I'm like, there's no reason that he's not going to tell Kabir that I'm working on this. Um. So I knew that Kabir has known for a while that I've been doing this, and he actually messaged me on Facebook probably in May, um, you know, saying like, hey, you're talking to a lot of people about me. They don't know about me. You're gonna want to talk to me. And I didn't respond because I just wasn't ready. Um, But I always knew obviously we were going to talk to him. But that's also that's like the dream as a reporter because a lot of times you're worried that someone's gonna be hard to track down, and when they when they're in your inbox saying hey, I'm ready to talk to you whenever you are, that's like, you know, thank God, that makes things so much easier. Yeah, And I figured out he would because he already said he did an interview with the Green Bay Press Gazette and it was like two and a half hours long. I don't know how they got out of that one in two and a half hours, Like that was that's nice that that guy must be more efficient than I am. Um, But yeah, I knew he already did that interview. And then you know, if you just watch his YouTube. He likes to talk, and I think that he saw this as a chance to sort of share his message. So I think that's why he said yes. I mean during the interview, he kept seeing how everybody told him not to talk to us, that he shouldn't be doing this, so there was nothing he could gain from it, and yet he still did it, Like he brought that up like five times, like everyone said I shouldn't do it. Everyone said I shouldn't do it. But then he quoted him like a quote I remember specifically as he said, I am my own PR guy. So he viewed it and when he said that, he reached out to the FBI and he's he's called the police chief in Green Bay. He kind of viewsed him self is like getting ahead of the bad PR and the rumors that are circulating about him. So I think that's the way he viewed this interview as well as like, you know what they're writing about me, anyways, let me like, let me be part of it. And honestly, he's He's right, like the biggest problems that we have as reporters that people get so mad at us when they when they declined to speak to us, and then we write about what we have and they never addressed it with us because they wouldn't respond, and then they get so mad and it's just like, okay, but you could have had your chance to respond you didn't, but he said no, and this is what happened. So I think he's completely right for talking to us. Obviously I think that because I'm the reporter, but like he has a good point, Like he wanted to share his side of the story and he got a chance to. So what I mean, what was that? Like, where did you meet him? What's the room? What are you feeling? If you can just take us inside that day? It was actually on Skype because it was like two weeks ago, maybe three weeks ago down so it was like it was the week of the fourth of July, so it was on skype. Um So I'm on Skype. Gary was on it um ur uditor Gary Grambling, he was on the call. That was me, Gary and Caveer and we were just on Skype for six and a half hours and I had to take a bathroom break because obviously that's a long time, and I had to continue sly. It was like eating a banana, and then like I was eating a granola bar. It was over like lunch time. And then I mean, I don't know how he did it because I never saw him take a drink of water. He did take a bathroom break, but he never ate anything. And he was not slowing down. He was like ready to keep talking to us for a long long time. And eventually I was like, Okay, I am really hungry and I have to go eat dinner, but thank you so much for your time. Um. And it was like he was never rude. He was like completely friendly, cracking jokes. You know, like there were a couple of times when we asked serious questions and you know, he got a little heated, but it was nothing like rotational. It went really well. And that's the thing that I was I've been telling people as I'm doing radio shows, like he's still really likable and really charismatic and friendly. And you can see why people are kind of following him in this branch of the ministry that he is leading in Green Bay because he's he's like a fun dude, Like he's funny, he's a good sense of humor. Um, you know, he's likable. So that came across in our interview completely um, and he was just you know, he just is very long winded, and so he and he asked us. It's a lot of questions to kind of trying to understand, like why do you want to do this story about me? And like who else are you talking to? And you know, things like that. So that's why it sort of went on for as long as it did. Yeah, and I guess it's a little uh less concerning if he's getting heated when you're over skype, because it's not like you were uh in the same room with him. Were there any were there any other additional challenges having to report this in the pandemic because obviously you started and it was not a pandemic, and you know, you describe all kinds of scenes and some of these compounds and places that seemed dangerous for reporters to be poke arounds. But I don't know if you actually went to any of them or if this was all done remotely. But how did the pandemic affect the story while you were working on it? So I never went to Kober's house by it, so I was able to kind of describe what it looks like from the outside. And it's also in so many of his YouTube videos, so you can really get a sense of how big it is and what it's like on the inside because of his YouTube videos. Um, I never went to the Straightway headquarters in Tennessee, and I honestly would never go there even if it wasn't a pandemic. I was not about to go there because Dowell says many times on videos that like, if you're not invited there and they don't know you're coming, like watch out. Basically, like he's threatened to people, um who come to his property unannounced, and I know they have a lot of weapons, that's very clear from their videos, and they are all very highly tactically trained and they're all carrying. So that's not thing that I would do without being invited. Um. You know, if he didn't invite me to do an interview there and it wasn't a pandemic, maybe we would think about that because it would be like a structured you know, he knows I'm coming, whatever, maybe we come with like security or something. You wouldn't go there yourself, you know. So but it never really came to that because he never responded to our interview requests. So UM just bite making multiple videos challenging us to a live recorded interview. He never responded and we actually were ready to talk to him, so that we never came to that. And I don't think there were really any other additional challenges. Um. I mean I was able to talk to everybody for this, Like I was able to find all the like former members and stuff like that, just like on different blogs. Um, you know post people who are posting about Straightway on blogs or you know, through somebody else who was like, hey, you should talk to this family and then I find them on Facebook. Um. So really that didn't um affect it at all. And you know, I don't think I would have really traveled to do any of those interviews anyways. UM. So yeah, it was mostly just like working the weird channels of the internet where people talk about cults so and religious groups where they have experienced abuses or you know, are looking because it was actually like as I was doing this, like um, people were like, oh, I've been waiting for someone to write about this group. I've been waiting to get connected to someone else who has left, you know, I've been trying to find someone who's in my same situation. So I've been able to kind of connect people now who didn't have anyone else because I was able to find oh so and so on this blog, and then so and so from this, and then that they were all kind of like now part of this circle of people who have left that group. Yeah, you went down a lot of rabbit holes because the story is not just about KGB. You talked to families where this organization groomed teenage girls and then once they were eighteen, they left to go live there. And some of these are just tear up stories that I mean, you just feel so bad hearing the point of view from the parents talking about just basically losing their kids, and you know, they don't want to contact them, and they tell the parents to stop contacting the group, and some of these stories are just horrible. Was was there, I mean, was there one detail that you heard it or got reported that just stood out to you as either like the weirdest possible thing or just some horrible, you know, crushing thing that you're just like your heart's breaking for these people as you're reporting on them. Was there is there one thing that stands out from the story as just that that detail that you keep coming back to, Um, I just think like the two sisters who I talked to, the younger sister, Um, she only would do the interview over Facebook messenger because like she was not comfortable yet like speaking about it out loud, and it had been like several years since she had been, you know, out of that lifestyle, and that whole like it was basically like a whole day of like messaging each other back and forth, and it was just getting like, you know, sadder sadder, like the conversation, and I think just a scene of like basically how it started chapter two, where like they're trying to run away so many times because of the abuse that they've experienced on this compound or in this community, and they can't run away because they're also afraid of like what will happen if they do run away, because they have not lived in the outside world like since they were one or two years old, so they don't know what it's like out there. And it's like the fear of the unknown versus the fear of like what you're experiencing, and also the fear of leaving your family. So that part was really I think that stuck with me the most, and that's why the story was like crazy because it was like I didn't get around to um interviewing. I didn't get around to really digging into straightway until like March or April. UM. The first part was like understanding caper, and then you know, the editors were like, Okay, we need to know more about this group, like how does this group work? We need to understand more about them, and then it became its own chapter of this thing, and it's it's wild because like that chapter really has nothing to do with football or sports or athletes at all, but it's like important because you have to know like what has could beer dedicated, what group has could be like dedicated himself too, and you know what has been other people's experience with that group. So that was a really interesting reporting experience because that was the thing I've never you know, overlapped with in terms of writing love football before. Yeah, so I just want to ask a couple more. But I guess just this thought that you're reporting a story and while you're reporting it, they are putting out videos about you reporting the story, and you mentioned being willing to do like would you have done the live interview with the guy if he was willing? And that was the only way you could get to him and just you know what, what's it like reporting a story while they're putting out videos about you doing this work? That was extremely weird. I mean, usually when you're reporting something that's like about someone and it's like, you know, negative um or you critical of that person or group or whatever, like you throw off the air quotes. There are people kids negative yeah, um characterized as negative negative by the person you're writing about, is what I should say. You're always sort of like afraid, like they're going to find out that you're doing like that you're doing it before you reach out to them, and they usually do UM. And so there's usually pushback of some sort, like you'll get a phone call and they're like you better not write the story. You know, people will try to shut you down. UM. This was different because it was like publicly public videos about like us, Like they never mentioned my name in the process of rewarding it, but it was about there were videos pastored out posted a video about Sports Illustrated. Sports Illustrated keeps trying to contact our people. I think he posted two or three of them before the story was out. UM. And so that was really interesting because I had never had come across that before. And it's also I would have done alive. I would have done it live. I would not prefer to have done it live. And I also think for his best interest, he shouldn't have done it live because I was going had to ask him to respond to like claims of sexual abuse on his community, So I'm not sure if he would want to really be live streaming that too everyone that watches his channel, UM, So I don't think that would have been in his best interest. But it was very clear that he wants to control the environment, so and I think that's why he ended up not responding to me, because I think, you know the time frame that we gave him, he said he was traveling. Um, this is coming through Kaber and also from his YouTube channel. He was traveling doing ministry work and other places. And I think he was probably just not able to control the environment while he was away from sort of his home office. So I think that's why he didn't get back in touch with us. I don't really know, um, but yeah, I would have I would have done that. But I think that the trickiest part about this story was like when it came to writing about this religious group that's extremely insular. It was like, am I really talking to a real person who left this group? Or is this person like catfish me and trolling me and they're actually in the group still. Um. That was tricky because the people that I talked to who had left the group were extremely paranoid to the point of like, well you're Like it was like shocking, like how paranoid they were because when they had left, they would get people pretending to be other people trying to get information from them and like trying to sort of like you know, fool them that they were you know, get like dirt basically from them about the group, but they were still in. It was someone posing as someone else, so they like several people that I talked to were like asking for like my credentials, like I had to sort of like prove that like I was who I said I was, and then I started getting paranoid back, like it was like a paranoid circle. I'm like wait, but like are you really who you said you were? Like how do I know? So that was like crazy because normally, like you know, reading BUF football, no one's really posing to be being somebody else. Like that's just not part of it. So that was a whole new experience of like whoa, Like my brain hurts from like all of this, like trying to figure out who is who? And are you legit? Are you genuine? Are you not? That wasn't that was new. That was a new reporting experience. How did you do that? Make sure that you weren't being cat fished? So I would video chat, um, just to make sure, Like if I was talking to the person on Facebook, I would be like, okay, can we video chat just to make sure we're not, you know, fooling each other here, um. And then I would try to make sure that like I hadn't Basically, like I wanted to make sure that like all of my sources who had left this group, we're not all sending me to each other, because I wanted to make sure I had kind of gotten them from different avenues, because if they were all kind of like linked to each other, then it's like, well then how do I know if any of you are real? And like you could all just be lying. So I wanted to kind of make sure I had like a diversity of like where they came from and how I got introduced to them. Um. But yeah, video chat, and then making sure they came from different places, um, and then verifying their stories from people close to them, like a sister, a mom, you know, something like that, somebody else in their family who could who could say yes and answer the questions, answer questions that I had about what they loved, one had already told me. Um. So yeah, those were kind of the ways that we did that. And then you mentioned KGB put out videos after the story was published. Was that after chapter one dropped? Or were there multiple and he did it after the series wrapped up today. I haven't seen any of these, so I haven't checked his channel since last night. So who knows. They make so many videos. There might be three more up there right now. But he posted his review after chapter one was posted because that was like all about him, so he posted his review after that, and there wasn't much that he said to be honest, like, I actually learned a really good UM shortcut. If you click the three dots on YouTube, there's a trance script. You can read a transcript of a YouTube video and you can click on the line and it will take you to like that part of the video, so you don't have to actually like listen to these whole videos anymore. But of course I didn't learn this until I was done. One of our fact checkers told me this information, and I was like, oh my god, I could have saved so much time to us of hours watching videos of And the crazy thing was like I started having dreams about the group, like probably in like May, I started having dreams about them like that I was part of it. I don't even remember what the dreams were, but they were like certainly, and I would wake up and be like, oh my god, I can't believe I just learned this information. I have to like put this in the story. But it was never real. It was like from my dream. So that's and and so it's scary. Like I watched so many of their videos. I was like, oh my god, I hope I'm not indoctrinated, like by the end of this, because I've consumed like so much of their content. And it's just crazy. Like once you get into these like um, you know rabbit holes on YouTube, which it reminds me a lot of the New York Times rabbit Hole podcast. If you listen to that or heard of that, it's all about like YouTube radicalization. Once you're like in these rabbit holes on YouTube. It's so easy to understand how like people get into this and get swept up into this and have it changed the whole life because you're just like, Okay, here's another one, Yeah, another one, so play and it's just crazy, it's wild, and so I'm really glad to be done because I needed a mental health break. Yeah, And I think that's a great note to end on. I mean, you said it at the beginning. The story touches on so many major issues that get talked about all over in other aspects of society, with race and religion and just YouTube radicalization and people using tech and uh, you know, you mentioned this group using all kinds of different like messaging apps I hadn't heard of, and they've got patreons and all kinds and there's just like all kinds of stuff in here, and it touches on so many issues that, um, you know that. It's like, if you spend enough time on the internet reading about other topics, this story intersects with so many of those. Yeah, it does. And I think that's why it's like people have from what I've seen on social media, it seems like people have actually read all three stories, like people who read one like came back for two and then came back for three just from um social media feedback, like everyone was like, wow, this was enthralling, Like every word was just fascinating. And I think that's why, because it is like so many different parts of society of right now are wrapped up in this story, and it's sort of you know, you know, it's this guy was a local hero and now the community fears him because of the actions that he's taken recently. Um. So I think it's just kind of your classic like fall of a Hero story as well, um, but with so many new things added to it. So I learned a ton from reporting this, and I hope everyone did too and enjoyed it. Yeah, it was great and it showed what a great job you did. I'm gonna plug the story one more time before you before we say goodbye. It's a it's called the It's called Pray for Caber, And then the full headline for chapter one is Pray for Beer. Chapter one the school play, The Minister of Defense, which of course is Reggie White, and the Fall of a Hero. And then from there you can follow the links of chapters two and three. You can find it on Kalin's Twitter feed. You can go to si dot com slash NFL. Make sure you go check it out because Klin, you're a great reporter and you did an awesome job on this. You've I'll give you a plug. You've written some some other awesome stories for the m m QUB over the years. Your how a cow becomes a football is legendary, and your story on the Bears kicker tryouts and a handful of others. So, Kleen, Um, it was really great to see your byline back at the MMQB this week, and you did an awesome job with this one. Thanks match, thanks for having me of course, and thanks for joining us, and thanks everyone else for listening to the podcast. You can subscribe at the m MQB NFL Podcast. We should be back with our regular show next Friday with Connor and Jenny, and make sure you subscribe for shows five days a week, plenty of good ones, the week Side podcast, O Briers Podcast, all kinds of stuff on there, so make sure you subscribe and we'll catch again next week. M

Hey everyone, I'm Mitch Goldich and welcome back to the mm QB NFL Podcast. It is Friday, so normally at this time we'd be doing our weekend review show with the whole team here, but instead, today we have a special episode with a special guest. She is no stranger to our subscribers on the mm QBI podcast feed. It is Kalin Kaylor Klin is here to talk about a three part story that she wrote for the MQB this week on the unusual post retirement story of former Packers star Kabir Gbaja Biamilia. And that's me just putting it as as lightly as I can. We'll get into all the crazy details and the twist and turns here from Kalin. But Kaylin, hello, how are you? Hey? I'm back. What's up? You're back. It's good to see you. We've got the zoom going here. I haven't seen you actually in a while outside of Instagram, so this is nice exactly. It's good to be back in the with the MMQB pals um. So we're gonna talk all the story, which was a massive undertaking three days and all three of them were lengthy. I think the editor we broke it up into three chapters, not three parts, which tells you the half of the overall story. Um. But for those who haven't read it, I'd recommend going and checking it out and reading it. But for anyone who's listening to this first and then reading it after, Calin, can you just sort of summarize the story for us, oh, I will try. Um. So, basically, Kabir Basha Biamila known as kgb he um when he retired from the Packers, he was their all time sack leader, so he's pretty well known um among Packers fans, and he chose to stay and make a home in Green Bay in post retirement, and he kind of became like a local icon. Um. You know, people when Packers players stay and choose to live in Green Bay, they kind of become like, you know a little bit famous and like really beloved in the community because it's such a small town. So he really like found a found his home there and he had eight kids with his wife there and they were very established, really involved in the church been um. You know, he had a reputation as like a Christian, good Christian man, family man, all of that. And this past December, um, he there was an incident that happened with a Christmas program with a private Christmas school at Christmas School, Christian School in Green Bay, and this kind of was the turning point where everyone in the community realized what is really going on in his post retirement life now. So at this Christmas program, just to sum it up, he had so Kaber had gotten involved with a religious group that follows like the Old Testament laws and the Commandments, and they don't identify as Christian anymore. Um though. They are a biblicitly based group that they sort of hate Christians and a lot of the videos that they put out a very judgmental of Christianity and they call Christians hypocrites and things like that. So um Beer did not want his children to be part of a Christmas program because the group that he's now involved in they don't believe in Christmas. They think Christmas the pagan holiday. So he although he hadn't seen his kids in two years, he did not want them to be part of this Christmas program. So he sent um two of the men who are part of his community. He's basically running like a branch of this ministry in Green Bay, and he sent two of those men to the to the school's Christmas program to collect evidence like photo or video. This isn't his words to collect photo or video of his kids being part of this pagan ritual, so that I don't know what he planned to do with it later, but he just wanted to proof because he without his consent, his property, he calls his kids his property, his property were being used without his content. So he sent these two guys there. And because there had been like a lot of turmoil over this with the headmaster between Kaper and Master in the past, headmaster recognized these two guys that were part of capers group, and he was really uncomfortable because he kind of thought something might happen, things might boil over, there might be some kind of, you know, disagreement, and he wasn't sure why they were there, so he calls the police. These two guys end up getting arrested because they were carrying a concealed weapon to a school event without a permit to carry a concealed weapon. So they end up getting arrested and it all comes out as to why they were there, because Caper had sent them there because he doesn't believe in Christmas. And then it all comes, you know, and then the story sort of unfolded from there. So UM our previous editor, Jack Dickie, who was at Sports Illustrated UM at the time in December, he sent me this news story and he was like, this is extremely weird because Coper did an interview at the time where he was seeing he was part of this religious group and the word cult was getting thrown around, and I was just like, this is fascinating, Like we need to find out what's going on, and we need to find out more. And yeah, and so you mentioned the word cult there and and just to paint people a full picture, you say a religious group, but I mean this is a group that you you mentioned they hate Christianity, but like to paint the picture of this, they have a pastor who's doing all, you know, an endless stream of YouTube videos with assault rifles in the background. This is a group where there are and you detail this in the piece, rampant allegations of abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, their anti gay, anti women, uh you know, speaking poorly, have a lot of groups and proudly doing this in their video that this is just that this is what they believe and feeling like there's nothing wrong with that and nothing that they need to hide. So this is uh, you know, not just a religious group, but this is really uh you know that gives you like and you were very careful both in the piece and in your tweets not to call it a cult, but your I saw like your tweets were worded a group that many people believe is a cult, and just being very careful with how you word everything. But this is uh, you know, more of a fringe group than sort of a mainstream religious group, right, And the word cult is like not politically correct even to begin with, but like we all we all kind of like know what we mean when we say cult, but it's sort of like one of those words that like doesn't really have like a true definition, but it's like we all kind of like know what it means and it sort of implies something, so like the term not academics will use as a new religious movement. Um and Kaper actually took issue with that term. He did a live stream about the story where he was sort of like breaking down the parts of the story that he thought, you know, his thoughts on what we wrote about him, um and he took issue with that because he was like, how are we a new religious movement because we use the Bible, the Bible as two thousand years old, which yes, that's true. But like this group, it's more than just biblically based. It's you know, there's some anti government ideas. There are um, you know, preppers. They're preppers, so they're preparing for the end of the world. They're storing food, they're you know, they're doing a lot of different sort of like trendy things that are like all from different sorts. Some of them are like totally secular, like prep prepping is I guess can be like a secular idea. So they're not just like Hebrew Israelites. There are a lot more than that. UM And it's the timing of when the story came out. This is a whole other tangent, but it was really interesting because of Shaun Jackson's comments um last week or two weeks ago, and then Nick Cannon's comments and he is fired from his role at viacom Um. Both of them made anti Semitic comments that were about Hebrew Israelism and the belief that black people are the chosen people of the Bible, and that the Jewish people stole that identity from them, And it was really interesting to me that like that happened as the story is coming out, because that's part of this story as well, Like that's part of this religious group's beliefs, um and I think a lot of that is part of like this whole moment that we're in right now with like kind of I don't know if like a racial awakening is like the right term for it, but after George Floyd, you know, um, black people really learning about their history and learning about um, you know, their identity and everything, and I think this religious group is really tied with that. So this story is like so fascinating because there's race, there's masculinity, there's religion, there's um, you know, retirement issues with NFL play years. I mean, there's just everything combined into one one person's religious journey basically. Yeah, and you're you're totally right about the timing with DeShawn Jackson and Nick Cannon, and you mentioned in the piece there are two other NFL players who belong to the same community that KGB does. And then you also have in the piece that NFL team Chaplains and another tangent KGB had sort of a contentious relationship with the Packers team chaplain and they would talk about religion and really get into it. But a different chaplains around the league are concerned that this is a movement that a lot of current or at least former NFL players are getting swept up into. And and again, you're right about masculinity, and and multiple people in the piece I think made the point that a lot of these football players believe in structure, and they have these strong, uh you know, leader figures in their lives as football coaches their whole lives, and then all of a sudden they retire and they lose the structure and the schedule, and they're looking for that sort of masculine, out outfit, masculine figure in their life. And so that's one of the things this you know, group that's putting down women and talking about their kids and their wives as property that it's appealing to. And again, we don't want to generalize too much. Not every NFL players like this, but there is a segment that's coming out of the league, coming out of the military, who are looking for structure and masculinity and find some of these teachings to be appealing there like a great audience for this kind of message. Basically, yeah, And Caber put that in his own words, he without even me really asking that question, he just said that. In our six hour long marathon interview. Um, he did bring up that he the leader of this group of Straight with Truth ministry is Pastor Charles Dowell. And he's very manly, you know, he's his body language is very mucho. His words are very blunt, he's very direct. He does a lot of shouting, he does a lot of like he doesn't sugarcoat anything. So Caper pointed that out and said, he feels like a coach. He feels like that figure that had been that authoritative figure in his life for so long that I think he was probably looking for again. And he made the clear comparison. He grew up Muslim. His father was Muslim, Um kabir father. And in the Muslim faith, Um, you know, men are at the front of the mosque and women are at the back. And and Kabir made that comparison. He was like Christianity is so feminine compared to that, Like He's like Christian pastors are so feminine, Like there's just this feminine spirit with Christianity. So for him, it was really important to get back to that sort of like men over here, women over here. We're going to keep the roles separate. We're gonna have a real man's man to use his words, he said, man's man um leading us. So that is a whole other You know, the reason why this message that straightway Truth is preaching is you know something that former NFL players are interested in. It appeals to them. So I do want to ask you about the six hour interview you're sitting down with KGB. But let's start at the very beginning. You talked about Jack Dickie gave you the first story and then you decided you want to investigate. I'm what's the first step? I mean where what was the first bit of reporting that you did and at what? At what point did you realize how big this story would be, the time commitment and even just knowing it would come in at over twenty words? Like, where where did you start and when did this become such a huge undertaking? Yeah? Um, so he sent me the news story probably like late December, I think I remember it was like around Christmas time, and he was like, you know, check this out. No rush, but like, let's this would be really interesting. I think there's something here. And this was right at the end of the NFL season, So the Packers made the playoffs, so they were going to be heading into a couple of playoff games. Um, they hosted the first one at Lambeo, so I was around there. I was planning to be around there already to be reporting on the Packers getting geting up for the playoffs. So I was like, you know what, this is actually perfect, Like while I'm up there, I can like figure out what this story is. So the first thing that I did, I think was I just started watching his YouTube channel first, because with a story like this, you're always like afraid to like each out to someone too early before you know anything, and like maybe you say the wrong thing and then they don't want to talk to you, um and they and you just sort of like wasted your one shot with a source, right, And this story is so sensitive and like weird that I was really careful with like the order of like how I wanted to do things. So I I think I just started by like really just streaming his YouTube videos. And I remember driving up to Green Bay. Um, I would just play his videos in the car and I could get through like five, you know, and I was like, oh wow, I learned a lot. Like and the thing about this story that made the reporting process so interesting was that everything was out there. Literally, everything was out there. I just had to watch it all and I had to follow up on the things that I saw. But like the fact that Robert Mathis was part of this group that was on YouTube this whole time, like, and I didn't find it on my own. Someone had to sort of like point me that way. They were like, hey, he's not the only one. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Because I was probably like a month and at this point and I hadn't I hadn't gotten that far on YouTube. So it was either like prompting from people for me to watch certain videos or but it was literally all there. And that's why I was paranoid as a reporter during this process because I'm like, if anyone else wanted to do this story, like, yes, it takes a lot of time, but it's like it's on YouTube, Like everything is on YouTube. You just have to like be organized and be watching it and like reaching out to people. Um So yeah, I think the first thing I did was watch the YouTube videos. Then I actually had a friend of my mom's knows a family who went to that school, whose kids went to that school, So I was able to get connected with like parents of that school first just to kind of get like the background of like what is going on here, And a lot of them knew a lot about could be a story because you know, it's a small town and that school is very small. There's only like a hundred or like two hundred something students that go there, so there's a very small school community. So these parents, um, they knew a lot about his story. So I was able to learn a lot about him and like what was going on and how the community viewed him from the school parents, and then from there it just went wild, and I think I knew right away. And I went to the police departments there too. Like I would go from like open locker room for like playoff reporting, and then I would go to the police department and be like, hey, what do you guys got? You know, like we talked on background, like can we talk about the record? Um? So it was really interesting reporting process. And so the beginning I was kind of like working in Green Bay like people sources in Green Bay, and then after that, UM, it was more like branching out to um. You know, once I found out Robert Mathis was in it, you know, Colts, people you know and people who know him and former teammates was another thing I did. UM. One of the first things I did was reached out to the former teammates because I wanted to understand who Kaber was before he got into this, and I knew that they would be probably far enough away from it to be able to talk about it, but also close enough to him to really speak to who he was. So former teammates was one of the first things that I did to just to like figure out who he was. And that was so important to like understanding how he got to where he is now because you can see it step by step by step because he was always like he was like fanatic about Christianity and was known for that, So you can see incrementally how he got to where he is now from the conversations with former teammates. That was really helpful. Yeah, And I think that's what made the story so good because it wasn't just here's a story about this incident involving career with his kids and what he's up to now, you really you painted the whole picture. And talking to i'm on Green, I mean, these are recognizable names. Those are packers, teams, some of these guys you talked to, and hearing about his interactions. You talked to Mike Sherman, I know, and Um just hearing about what he was like with the chaplain as a player helped paint the full picture. So you did you talk to him for a long time? How much reporting had you done when you first reached out to him directly to set up an interview? Everything was done. We saved that for last. We saved him Robert Mathis and Daniel Muir and Pastor Dowell who never talked to me. We were saving them for last because you want to have all the information that you can and you want to be like really organized. I knew that he knew that I was doing the story, like I figured he would find out immediately. Like once I talked to Um i'm on Green, I was like, all right, he knows, you know what I mean, Like because they're still friends, and I'm like, there's no reason that he's not going to tell Kabir that I'm working on this. Um. So I knew that Kabir has known for a while that I've been doing this, and he actually messaged me on Facebook probably in May, um, you know, saying like, hey, you're talking to a lot of people about me. They don't know about me. You're gonna want to talk to me. And I didn't respond because I just wasn't ready. Um, But I always knew obviously we were going to talk to him. But that's also that's like the dream as a reporter because a lot of times you're worried that someone's gonna be hard to track down, and when they when they're in your inbox saying hey, I'm ready to talk to you whenever you are, that's like, you know, thank God, that makes things so much easier. Yeah, And I figured out he would because he already said he did an interview with the Green Bay Press Gazette and it was like two and a half hours long. I don't know how they got out of that one in two and a half hours, Like that was that's nice that that guy must be more efficient than I am. Um, But yeah, I knew he already did that interview. And then you know, if you just watch his YouTube. He likes to talk, and I think that he saw this as a chance to sort of share his message. So I think that's why he said yes. I mean during the interview, he kept seeing how everybody told him not to talk to us, that he shouldn't be doing this, so there was nothing he could gain from it, and yet he still did it, Like he brought that up like five times, like everyone said I shouldn't do it. Everyone said I shouldn't do it. But then he quoted him like a quote I remember specifically as he said, I am my own PR guy. So he viewed it and when he said that, he reached out to the FBI and he's he's called the police chief in Green Bay. He kind of viewsed him self is like getting ahead of the bad PR and the rumors that are circulating about him. So I think that's the way he viewed this interview as well as like, you know what they're writing about me, anyways, let me like, let me be part of it. And honestly, he's He's right, like the biggest problems that we have as reporters that people get so mad at us when they when they declined to speak to us, and then we write about what we have and they never addressed it with us because they wouldn't respond, and then they get so mad and it's just like, okay, but you could have had your chance to respond you didn't, but he said no, and this is what happened. So I think he's completely right for talking to us. Obviously I think that because I'm the reporter, but like he has a good point, Like he wanted to share his side of the story and he got a chance to. So what I mean, what was that? Like, where did you meet him? What's the room? What are you feeling? If you can just take us inside that day? It was actually on Skype because it was like two weeks ago, maybe three weeks ago down so it was like it was the week of the fourth of July, so it was on skype. Um So I'm on Skype. Gary was on it um ur uditor Gary Grambling, he was on the call. That was me, Gary and Caveer and we were just on Skype for six and a half hours and I had to take a bathroom break because obviously that's a long time, and I had to continue sly. It was like eating a banana, and then like I was eating a granola bar. It was over like lunch time. And then I mean, I don't know how he did it because I never saw him take a drink of water. He did take a bathroom break, but he never ate anything. And he was not slowing down. He was like ready to keep talking to us for a long long time. And eventually I was like, Okay, I am really hungry and I have to go eat dinner, but thank you so much for your time. Um. And it was like he was never rude. He was like completely friendly, cracking jokes. You know, like there were a couple of times when we asked serious questions and you know, he got a little heated, but it was nothing like rotational. It went really well. And that's the thing that I was I've been telling people as I'm doing radio shows, like he's still really likable and really charismatic and friendly. And you can see why people are kind of following him in this branch of the ministry that he is leading in Green Bay because he's he's like a fun dude, Like he's funny, he's a good sense of humor. Um, you know, he's likable. So that came across in our interview completely um, and he was just you know, he just is very long winded, and so he and he asked us. It's a lot of questions to kind of trying to understand, like why do you want to do this story about me? And like who else are you talking to? And you know, things like that. So that's why it sort of went on for as long as it did. Yeah, and I guess it's a little uh less concerning if he's getting heated when you're over skype, because it's not like you were uh in the same room with him. Were there any were there any other additional challenges having to report this in the pandemic because obviously you started and it was not a pandemic, and you know, you describe all kinds of scenes and some of these compounds and places that seemed dangerous for reporters to be poke arounds. But I don't know if you actually went to any of them or if this was all done remotely. But how did the pandemic affect the story while you were working on it? So I never went to Kober's house by it, so I was able to kind of describe what it looks like from the outside. And it's also in so many of his YouTube videos, so you can really get a sense of how big it is and what it's like on the inside because of his YouTube videos. Um, I never went to the Straightway headquarters in Tennessee, and I honestly would never go there even if it wasn't a pandemic. I was not about to go there because Dowell says many times on videos that like, if you're not invited there and they don't know you're coming, like watch out. Basically, like he's threatened to people, um who come to his property unannounced, and I know they have a lot of weapons, that's very clear from their videos, and they are all very highly tactically trained and they're all carrying. So that's not thing that I would do without being invited. Um. You know, if he didn't invite me to do an interview there and it wasn't a pandemic, maybe we would think about that because it would be like a structured you know, he knows I'm coming, whatever, maybe we come with like security or something. You wouldn't go there yourself, you know. So but it never really came to that because he never responded to our interview requests. So UM just bite making multiple videos challenging us to a live recorded interview. He never responded and we actually were ready to talk to him, so that we never came to that. And I don't think there were really any other additional challenges. Um. I mean I was able to talk to everybody for this, Like I was able to find all the like former members and stuff like that, just like on different blogs. Um, you know post people who are posting about Straightway on blogs or you know, through somebody else who was like, hey, you should talk to this family and then I find them on Facebook. Um. So really that didn't um affect it at all. And you know, I don't think I would have really traveled to do any of those interviews anyways. UM. So yeah, it was mostly just like working the weird channels of the internet where people talk about cults so and religious groups where they have experienced abuses or you know, are looking because it was actually like as I was doing this, like um, people were like, oh, I've been waiting for someone to write about this group. I've been waiting to get connected to someone else who has left, you know, I've been trying to find someone who's in my same situation. So I've been able to kind of connect people now who didn't have anyone else because I was able to find oh so and so on this blog, and then so and so from this, and then that they were all kind of like now part of this circle of people who have left that group. Yeah, you went down a lot of rabbit holes because the story is not just about KGB. You talked to families where this organization groomed teenage girls and then once they were eighteen, they left to go live there. And some of these are just tear up stories that I mean, you just feel so bad hearing the point of view from the parents talking about just basically losing their kids, and you know, they don't want to contact them, and they tell the parents to stop contacting the group, and some of these stories are just horrible. Was was there, I mean, was there one detail that you heard it or got reported that just stood out to you as either like the weirdest possible thing or just some horrible, you know, crushing thing that you're just like your heart's breaking for these people as you're reporting on them. Was there is there one thing that stands out from the story as just that that detail that you keep coming back to, Um, I just think like the two sisters who I talked to, the younger sister, Um, she only would do the interview over Facebook messenger because like she was not comfortable yet like speaking about it out loud, and it had been like several years since she had been, you know, out of that lifestyle, and that whole like it was basically like a whole day of like messaging each other back and forth, and it was just getting like, you know, sadder sadder, like the conversation, and I think just a scene of like basically how it started chapter two, where like they're trying to run away so many times because of the abuse that they've experienced on this compound or in this community, and they can't run away because they're also afraid of like what will happen if they do run away, because they have not lived in the outside world like since they were one or two years old, so they don't know what it's like out there. And it's like the fear of the unknown versus the fear of like what you're experiencing, and also the fear of leaving your family. So that part was really I think that stuck with me the most, and that's why the story was like crazy because it was like I didn't get around to um interviewing. I didn't get around to really digging into straightway until like March or April. UM. The first part was like understanding caper, and then you know, the editors were like, Okay, we need to know more about this group, like how does this group work? We need to understand more about them, and then it became its own chapter of this thing, and it's it's wild because like that chapter really has nothing to do with football or sports or athletes at all, but it's like important because you have to know like what has could beer dedicated, what group has could be like dedicated himself too, and you know what has been other people's experience with that group. So that was a really interesting reporting experience because that was the thing I've never you know, overlapped with in terms of writing love football before. Yeah, so I just want to ask a couple more. But I guess just this thought that you're reporting a story and while you're reporting it, they are putting out videos about you reporting the story, and you mentioned being willing to do like would you have done the live interview with the guy if he was willing? And that was the only way you could get to him and just you know what, what's it like reporting a story while they're putting out videos about you doing this work? That was extremely weird. I mean, usually when you're reporting something that's like about someone and it's like, you know, negative um or you critical of that person or group or whatever, like you throw off the air quotes. There are people kids negative yeah, um characterized as negative negative by the person you're writing about, is what I should say. You're always sort of like afraid, like they're going to find out that you're doing like that you're doing it before you reach out to them, and they usually do UM. And so there's usually pushback of some sort, like you'll get a phone call and they're like you better not write the story. You know, people will try to shut you down. UM. This was different because it was like publicly public videos about like us, Like they never mentioned my name in the process of rewarding it, but it was about there were videos pastored out posted a video about Sports Illustrated. Sports Illustrated keeps trying to contact our people. I think he posted two or three of them before the story was out. UM. And so that was really interesting because I had never had come across that before. And it's also I would have done alive. I would have done it live. I would not prefer to have done it live. And I also think for his best interest, he shouldn't have done it live because I was going had to ask him to respond to like claims of sexual abuse on his community, So I'm not sure if he would want to really be live streaming that too everyone that watches his channel, UM, So I don't think that would have been in his best interest. But it was very clear that he wants to control the environment, so and I think that's why he ended up not responding to me, because I think, you know the time frame that we gave him, he said he was traveling. Um, this is coming through Kaber and also from his YouTube channel. He was traveling doing ministry work and other places. And I think he was probably just not able to control the environment while he was away from sort of his home office. So I think that's why he didn't get back in touch with us. I don't really know, um, but yeah, I would have I would have done that. But I think that the trickiest part about this story was like when it came to writing about this religious group that's extremely insular. It was like, am I really talking to a real person who left this group? Or is this person like catfish me and trolling me and they're actually in the group still. Um. That was tricky because the people that I talked to who had left the group were extremely paranoid to the point of like, well you're Like it was like shocking, like how paranoid they were because when they had left, they would get people pretending to be other people trying to get information from them and like trying to sort of like you know, fool them that they were you know, get like dirt basically from them about the group, but they were still in. It was someone posing as someone else, so they like several people that I talked to were like asking for like my credentials, like I had to sort of like prove that like I was who I said I was, and then I started getting paranoid back, like it was like a paranoid circle. I'm like wait, but like are you really who you said you were? Like how do I know? So that was like crazy because normally, like you know, reading BUF football, no one's really posing to be being somebody else. Like that's just not part of it. So that was a whole new experience of like whoa, Like my brain hurts from like all of this, like trying to figure out who is who? And are you legit? Are you genuine? Are you not? That wasn't that was new. That was a new reporting experience. How did you do that? Make sure that you weren't being cat fished? So I would video chat, um, just to make sure, Like if I was talking to the person on Facebook, I would be like, okay, can we video chat just to make sure we're not, you know, fooling each other here, um. And then I would try to make sure that like I hadn't Basically, like I wanted to make sure that like all of my sources who had left this group, we're not all sending me to each other, because I wanted to make sure I had kind of gotten them from different avenues, because if they were all kind of like linked to each other, then it's like, well then how do I know if any of you are real? And like you could all just be lying. So I wanted to kind of make sure I had like a diversity of like where they came from and how I got introduced to them. Um. But yeah, video chat, and then making sure they came from different places, um, and then verifying their stories from people close to them, like a sister, a mom, you know, something like that, somebody else in their family who could who could say yes and answer the questions, answer questions that I had about what they loved, one had already told me. Um. So yeah, those were kind of the ways that we did that. And then you mentioned KGB put out videos after the story was published. Was that after chapter one dropped? Or were there multiple and he did it after the series wrapped up today. I haven't seen any of these, so I haven't checked his channel since last night. So who knows. They make so many videos. There might be three more up there right now. But he posted his review after chapter one was posted because that was like all about him, so he posted his review after that, and there wasn't much that he said to be honest, like, I actually learned a really good UM shortcut. If you click the three dots on YouTube, there's a trance script. You can read a transcript of a YouTube video and you can click on the line and it will take you to like that part of the video, so you don't have to actually like listen to these whole videos anymore. But of course I didn't learn this until I was done. One of our fact checkers told me this information, and I was like, oh my god, I could have saved so much time to us of hours watching videos of And the crazy thing was like I started having dreams about the group, like probably in like May, I started having dreams about them like that I was part of it. I don't even remember what the dreams were, but they were like certainly, and I would wake up and be like, oh my god, I can't believe I just learned this information. I have to like put this in the story. But it was never real. It was like from my dream. So that's and and so it's scary. Like I watched so many of their videos. I was like, oh my god, I hope I'm not indoctrinated, like by the end of this, because I've consumed like so much of their content. And it's just crazy. Like once you get into these like um, you know rabbit holes on YouTube, which it reminds me a lot of the New York Times rabbit Hole podcast. If you listen to that or heard of that, it's all about like YouTube radicalization. Once you're like in these rabbit holes on YouTube. It's so easy to understand how like people get into this and get swept up into this and have it changed the whole life because you're just like, Okay, here's another one, Yeah, another one, so play and it's just crazy, it's wild, and so I'm really glad to be done because I needed a mental health break. Yeah, And I think that's a great note to end on. I mean, you said it at the beginning. The story touches on so many major issues that get talked about all over in other aspects of society, with race and religion and just YouTube radicalization and people using tech and uh, you know, you mentioned this group using all kinds of different like messaging apps I hadn't heard of, and they've got patreons and all kinds and there's just like all kinds of stuff in here, and it touches on so many issues that, um, you know that. It's like, if you spend enough time on the internet reading about other topics, this story intersects with so many of those. Yeah, it does. And I think that's why it's like people have from what I've seen on social media, it seems like people have actually read all three stories, like people who read one like came back for two and then came back for three just from um social media feedback, like everyone was like, wow, this was enthralling, Like every word was just fascinating. And I think that's why, because it is like so many different parts of society of right now are wrapped up in this story, and it's sort of you know, you know, it's this guy was a local hero and now the community fears him because of the actions that he's taken recently. Um. So I think it's just kind of your classic like fall of a Hero story as well, um, but with so many new things added to it. So I learned a ton from reporting this, and I hope everyone did too and enjoyed it. Yeah, it was great and it showed what a great job you did. I'm gonna plug the story one more time before you before we say goodbye. It's a it's called the It's called Pray for Caber, And then the full headline for chapter one is Pray for Beer. Chapter one the school play, The Minister of Defense, which of course is Reggie White, and the Fall of a Hero. And then from there you can follow the links of chapters two and three. You can find it on Kalin's Twitter feed. You can go to si dot com slash NFL. Make sure you go check it out because Klin, you're a great reporter and you did an awesome job on this. You've I'll give you a plug. You've written some some other awesome stories for the m m QUB over the years. Your how a cow becomes a football is legendary, and your story on the Bears kicker tryouts and a handful of others. So, Kleen, Um, it was really great to see your byline back at the MMQB this week, and you did an awesome job with this one. Thanks match, thanks for having me of course, and thanks for joining us, and thanks everyone else for listening to the podcast. You can subscribe at the m MQB NFL Podcast. We should be back with our regular show next Friday with Connor and Jenny, and make sure you subscribe for shows five days a week, plenty of good ones, the week Side podcast, O Briers Podcast, all kinds of stuff on there, so make sure you subscribe and we'll catch again next week. M