Welcome to One Thing Trump did, available exclusively on The Middle podcast feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson and if you're new to OTTD as we call this podcast. Every week we pick one thing coming out of the Trump White House and focus on it in a non partisan way, just like on the Middle, with someone who knows what they're talking about. And our one thing this week is public media, which is close to home. It's also under attack from the Trump administration, with an executive order from the President ordering the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to end funding for NPR and PBS, the firing of CPB board members, and the potential for a recision of hundreds of millions of dollars already appropriated for public broadcasting by Congress. President Trump has been talking about this for a while now here Here's what he had to say in March about whether or not he'd like to defund public media.

Welcome to One Thing Trump did, available exclusively on The Middle podcast feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson and if you're new to OTTD as we call this podcast. Every week we pick one thing coming out of the Trump White House and focus on it in a non partisan way, just like on the Middle, with someone who knows what they're talking about. And our one thing this week is public media, which is close to home. It's also under attack from the Trump administration, with an executive order from the President ordering the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to end funding for NPR and PBS, the firing of CPB board members, and the potential for a recision of hundreds of millions of dollars already appropriated for public broadcasting by Congress. President Trump has been talking about this for a while now here Here's what he had to say in March about whether or not he'd like to defund public media.

Well, I would love to do that. I think it's very unfair. It's been very biased the whole group, I mean a whole group of them. And frankly, there's plenty a little at all the media you have right now, there's plenty of coverage. It was from a different age, and they spend more money than any other network of its type ever conceived, and I'd be honored to see it end.

Well, I would love to do that. I think it's very unfair. It's been very biased the whole group, I mean a whole group of them. And frankly, there's plenty a little at all the media you have right now, there's plenty of coverage. It was from a different age, and they spend more money than any other network of its type ever conceived, and I'd be honored to see it end.

So will federal funding for public media go away? And what will happen if it does. Joining me now is Tim Black, who is president and CEO of Tri State Public Media and wnin in Evansville, Indiana. Tim, it is great to have you on. Thanks a bunch, so, believe it or not, Tim, I have a lot of contacts in public media. I could have had a number of people on to talk about this, but I chose you because you've got it all here. Your station is both TV and radio. It's not one of the big stations that people say might be just fine without federal funding. So tell us about WNI first of all.

So will federal funding for public media go away? And what will happen if it does. Joining me now is Tim Black, who is president and CEO of Tri State Public Media and wnin in Evansville, Indiana. Tim, it is great to have you on. Thanks a bunch, so, believe it or not, Tim, I have a lot of contacts in public media. I could have had a number of people on to talk about this, but I chose you because you've got it all here. Your station is both TV and radio. It's not one of the big stations that people say might be just fine without federal funding. So tell us about WNI first of all.

Well, first of all, you've hit the nail exactly on the head. We are a dual licensee, so we have both a television station PBS station, and a radio station, which of course is an NPR affiliate. To add another layer to that, making us even a little bit more unique, we are a community licensee. We're not affiliated with a local university or a school, or a foundation or anything. We're actually managed by a board of directors. That's made up entirely of community citizens. We have been on the air now, both television and radio, for just over fifty years. We sit in the southernmost part of the state of Indiana. In fact, my office looks out across the Ohio River into Kentucky. And speaking of that, our market coverage area includes the most part Indiana, but we also reach into portions of Kentucky and than just a really small sliver of Illinois. So I think that gives you the quick overview of what's going on here.

Well, first of all, you've hit the nail exactly on the head. We are a dual licensee, so we have both a television station PBS station, and a radio station, which of course is an NPR affiliate. To add another layer to that, making us even a little bit more unique, we are a community licensee. We're not affiliated with a local university or a school, or a foundation or anything. We're actually managed by a board of directors. That's made up entirely of community citizens. We have been on the air now, both television and radio, for just over fifty years. We sit in the southernmost part of the state of Indiana. In fact, my office looks out across the Ohio River into Kentucky. And speaking of that, our market coverage area includes the most part Indiana, but we also reach into portions of Kentucky and than just a really small sliver of Illinois. So I think that gives you the quick overview of what's going on here.

Those are the try states that we're talking exactly, And what's your budget like?

Those are the try states that we're talking exactly, And what's your budget like?

Our budget is actually just right at about three million dollars annually, and you know that certainly helps us to get where we need to be, But we're also we always stay very close to the edge of that. We don't usually have a lot left over one way or the other, and that's pretty much been the case for quite some time. So we get just over half of our support in that budget from the community that's made up mostly of individual memberships and donations. We get some amount of support from local corporate citizens, foundations, that kind of thing, but I guess giving a little preview of where we're going with this conversation. And we also are pretty darn close to half of my budget coming in from government sources, between federal funding and state funding.

Our budget is actually just right at about three million dollars annually, and you know that certainly helps us to get where we need to be, But we're also we always stay very close to the edge of that. We don't usually have a lot left over one way or the other, and that's pretty much been the case for quite some time. So we get just over half of our support in that budget from the community that's made up mostly of individual memberships and donations. We get some amount of support from local corporate citizens, foundations, that kind of thing, but I guess giving a little preview of where we're going with this conversation. And we also are pretty darn close to half of my budget coming in from government sources, between federal funding and state funding.

And how many people work at the station.

And how many people work at the station.

We have officially right now we are at twenty six people, and that's both full time and part time.

We have officially right now we are at twenty six people, and that's both full time and part time.

And how many people do you serve or how many people are in your market overall?

And how many people do you serve or how many people are in your market overall?

We basically that that number is going to I'm going to speak pretty broadly, but I mean across the entire tri state area, we're probably bumping three hundred thousand people.

We basically that that number is going to I'm going to speak pretty broadly, but I mean across the entire tri state area, we're probably bumping three hundred thousand people.

Now, you mentioned state funding. Indiana is in a tough spot because the state pulled their funding of public broadcasting kind of suddenly this year.

Now, you mentioned state funding. Indiana is in a tough spot because the state pulled their funding of public broadcasting kind of suddenly this year.

What happened there, Well, you know, that's a great question, Jeremy. I suppose. I wish I knew all the answers to that. But from the time that you and I are talking right now, we lost our entire tranch of state funding about three weeks ago. And yes, it happened very quickly. In fact, we were inside the week in which the budget negotiations and debates were wrapping up that was scheduled to happen on a Thursday evening. We being our group of stations in Indiana, we have a loose cohort of stations PBS, NPR stations in the state of Indiana that are under the umbrella of Indiana Public Broadcasting Service, and we do that for the purposes of lobbying for budget money at the state House. We had been told as a group on Tuesday of that week, two days before the budget session wrapped up, that our funding was good, that we should breathe easier, which we all did, and then I got a late night email on Wednesday, I was on an eight am zoom call on Thursday morning telling us that it was going to get pulled out of the budget. I mean, it all has happened very very fast. We have been told that it had absolutely nothing to do with any of the political chatter, any of the particularly the national political chatter that's been going on about public media, and that everything revolved around a really bad revenue projection for the state that they had received near the end of that process, and that that's the reason that we lost our funding.

What happened there, Well, you know, that's a great question, Jeremy. I suppose. I wish I knew all the answers to that. But from the time that you and I are talking right now, we lost our entire tranch of state funding about three weeks ago. And yes, it happened very quickly. In fact, we were inside the week in which the budget negotiations and debates were wrapping up that was scheduled to happen on a Thursday evening. We being our group of stations in Indiana, we have a loose cohort of stations PBS, NPR stations in the state of Indiana that are under the umbrella of Indiana Public Broadcasting Service, and we do that for the purposes of lobbying for budget money at the state House. We had been told as a group on Tuesday of that week, two days before the budget session wrapped up, that our funding was good, that we should breathe easier, which we all did, and then I got a late night email on Wednesday, I was on an eight am zoom call on Thursday morning telling us that it was going to get pulled out of the budget. I mean, it all has happened very very fast. We have been told that it had absolutely nothing to do with any of the political chatter, any of the particularly the national political chatter that's been going on about public media, and that everything revolved around a really bad revenue projection for the state that they had received near the end of that process, and that that's the reason that we lost our funding.

And that's funding for all these public stations across the state of Indiana. What does it mean for your station?

And that's funding for all these public stations across the state of Indiana. What does it mean for your station?

In particular, well for the entire state for the past several budget cycles now where we deal with a buy ineum budget here in Indiana, so every two years we go through this process. We have been getting as a state three point sixty five million dollars per year. For me specifically at WNI in that's about four hundred and forty thousand dollars on an annual basis, which is pretty close to about seven seventeen percent of my annual budget. So it's a it's a big hit.

In particular, well for the entire state for the past several budget cycles now where we deal with a buy ineum budget here in Indiana, so every two years we go through this process. We have been getting as a state three point sixty five million dollars per year. For me specifically at WNI in that's about four hundred and forty thousand dollars on an annual basis, which is pretty close to about seven seventeen percent of my annual budget. So it's a it's a big hit.

So what did the cuts mean for your station?

So what did the cuts mean for your station?

Well, at this point right now, we're fortunate that we do have the benefit of some invested reserve funding that we will be able to take advantage of in the immediate time being. That's going to help us well. The way that this all works, without getting too deep into the weeds, we actually would have received about seventy five percent of that four hundred and forty thousand dollars in August, coming up in just about three four months now, that was part of our current f y twenty twenty five budget. Because we're not going to be receiving that, we are going to rely on the assistance of reserve funding and then as we go into the next two years, I'm in the process right now putting together a plan for that. We've had some very preliminary discussions with my board of directors just last week. As a matter of fact, we think we can survive for the next couple of years by utilizing some of our reserve funding. And then, of course the other parts of those cuts are simply going to have to come from me pulling back a great deal on programming that we offer here at the station for the next two years. I'm trying my very very best not to involve staff cuts, but at this point, at this point, we're not there yet. But I certainly cannot make any promises about that, and I've actually shared that with my staff. I mean, that's something that they're aware of also that I'm doing my very best. But as we get deeper into these upcoming next two fiscal years, you know, we may be forced to make some self decisions. And of course that isn't even allowing into the conversation the possibility of losing federal funding. This is just the state funding that I know for sure we've lost already for the next two years.

Well, at this point right now, we're fortunate that we do have the benefit of some invested reserve funding that we will be able to take advantage of in the immediate time being. That's going to help us well. The way that this all works, without getting too deep into the weeds, we actually would have received about seventy five percent of that four hundred and forty thousand dollars in August, coming up in just about three four months now, that was part of our current f y twenty twenty five budget. Because we're not going to be receiving that, we are going to rely on the assistance of reserve funding and then as we go into the next two years, I'm in the process right now putting together a plan for that. We've had some very preliminary discussions with my board of directors just last week. As a matter of fact, we think we can survive for the next couple of years by utilizing some of our reserve funding. And then, of course the other parts of those cuts are simply going to have to come from me pulling back a great deal on programming that we offer here at the station for the next two years. I'm trying my very very best not to involve staff cuts, but at this point, at this point, we're not there yet. But I certainly cannot make any promises about that, and I've actually shared that with my staff. I mean, that's something that they're aware of also that I'm doing my very best. But as we get deeper into these upcoming next two fiscal years, you know, we may be forced to make some self decisions. And of course that isn't even allowing into the conversation the possibility of losing federal funding. This is just the state funding that I know for sure we've lost already for the next two years.

Okay, And of course this show is called one thing Trump did, not one thing Bron did. Mike Bron the governor of Indiana. So let's talk about the federal money that also could be on the chopping block here. How much money do you get from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and are you worried that you won't get that money?

Okay, And of course this show is called one thing Trump did, not one thing Bron did. Mike Bron the governor of Indiana. So let's talk about the federal money that also could be on the chopping block here. How much money do you get from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and are you worried that you won't get that money?

Well, in terms of the amount that we get, as is true with most all public media stations around the country, the bulk of the dollars that we receive from CPB are directed toward television. As a total, since once again we're a dual licensee. Across both of my stations, I get a total of just over a million dollars and pretty close to about nine hundred thousand of that is directed for television and only about one hundred thousand or so goes toward the radio station. And that's just the way that the numbers work out. With that, that is about thirty percent of my budget. So if you add the state numbers to it, I'm getting really really close to potentially losing half of my budget if the federal dollars go away. So that would put us into a very critical situation if that were to happen, and I think second part of your question was whether or not I thought this was going to happen right now. And this is the statement that I make to everybody. I have just been over the course of the last two weeks. I was in Washington for a few days at an NPR meeting. I've just returned yesterday, as a matter of fact, from a meeting in Atlanta with PBS. Based on what I'm hearing from all the folks at NPR and PBS who are very very close to what's happening on Capitol Hill, and my own visits to Capitol Hill, because during the NPR meeting, I actually had the opportunity to meet with three of our local representatives. Based on all of that, I'll say this, I am much more confident now than I was probably a month to two months ago that, at least for the next two years of funding, I think that we will get those dollars. And that is primarily because the way the whole budget things work, the dollars for the next two years have already been approved and allocated by Congress. Losing those dollars would require Congress to actually take a vote to pull that money back. I do not think that that is going.

Well, in terms of the amount that we get, as is true with most all public media stations around the country, the bulk of the dollars that we receive from CPB are directed toward television. As a total, since once again we're a dual licensee. Across both of my stations, I get a total of just over a million dollars and pretty close to about nine hundred thousand of that is directed for television and only about one hundred thousand or so goes toward the radio station. And that's just the way that the numbers work out. With that, that is about thirty percent of my budget. So if you add the state numbers to it, I'm getting really really close to potentially losing half of my budget if the federal dollars go away. So that would put us into a very critical situation if that were to happen, and I think second part of your question was whether or not I thought this was going to happen right now. And this is the statement that I make to everybody. I have just been over the course of the last two weeks. I was in Washington for a few days at an NPR meeting. I've just returned yesterday, as a matter of fact, from a meeting in Atlanta with PBS. Based on what I'm hearing from all the folks at NPR and PBS who are very very close to what's happening on Capitol Hill, and my own visits to Capitol Hill, because during the NPR meeting, I actually had the opportunity to meet with three of our local representatives. Based on all of that, I'll say this, I am much more confident now than I was probably a month to two months ago that, at least for the next two years of funding, I think that we will get those dollars. And that is primarily because the way the whole budget things work, the dollars for the next two years have already been approved and allocated by Congress. Losing those dollars would require Congress to actually take a vote to pull that money back. I do not think that that is going.

To happen well, and we're going to talk about that in a moment about the idea of recision which has come up. Could the Trump administration pull back the money that's already been appropriated by Congress. But if for some reason you did lose your CPB funding and you did lose your state already lost your state fund, sure, sure does the money exist in a market like yours to go find it elsewhere from donors and from companies and organizations there or not.

To happen well, and we're going to talk about that in a moment about the idea of recision which has come up. Could the Trump administration pull back the money that's already been appropriated by Congress. But if for some reason you did lose your CPB funding and you did lose your state already lost your state fund, sure, sure does the money exist in a market like yours to go find it elsewhere from donors and from companies and organizations there or not.

On a sustaining basis of knowing that we could count on that kind of an influx of cash over the course of several years. No, it does not exist, you know. And once again I've already sort of been playing around with those numbers. In my case here at WNI in we're very fortunate that we own our building, which happens to be in a very attractive part of downtown Evansville. That would the possibility of selling our building and getting involved in a process that would allow us to stay in the building but then still sell the building to a potential investor, and the kind of dollars that we might be able to generate for that that would have to be on the table for us to even consider continuing operation for any period of time if we were to lose federal money. I mean, that's how dire that is for me, because those dollars. Simply to attempt to find an extra million dollars, and if you add state into it, basically a million and a half dollars on an annual basis, that's not going to happen.

On a sustaining basis of knowing that we could count on that kind of an influx of cash over the course of several years. No, it does not exist, you know. And once again I've already sort of been playing around with those numbers. In my case here at WNI in we're very fortunate that we own our building, which happens to be in a very attractive part of downtown Evansville. That would the possibility of selling our building and getting involved in a process that would allow us to stay in the building but then still sell the building to a potential investor, and the kind of dollars that we might be able to generate for that that would have to be on the table for us to even consider continuing operation for any period of time if we were to lose federal money. I mean, that's how dire that is for me, because those dollars. Simply to attempt to find an extra million dollars, and if you add state into it, basically a million and a half dollars on an annual basis, that's not going to happen.

Yeah. I got to tell you, as somebody who's been trying to raise money for this public radio show called The Middle for the last two years, I can't even imagine trying to find a million dollars. Ten thousand will do it for me right now? That would feel good. Let me ask you one more thing before we take a break, Tim, You're in a pretty red area generally, if you look at the politics of southern Indiana. Do people in your community that you talk to hate public broadcasting as much as Trump seems to.

Yeah. I got to tell you, as somebody who's been trying to raise money for this public radio show called The Middle for the last two years, I can't even imagine trying to find a million dollars. Ten thousand will do it for me right now? That would feel good. Let me ask you one more thing before we take a break, Tim, You're in a pretty red area generally, if you look at the politics of southern Indiana. Do people in your community that you talk to hate public broadcasting as much as Trump seems to.

No, they do not. You're correct that. I mean, as national political discussions go, people would certainly put the state of Indiana in the red But and we do live in a very conservative area. But and I would like to think that that's because of my staff and hopefully the way that that I manage our station here, that that we we do try to manage things in a good way. And as a result, I think this community by and large sees the benefit of having a public media station in its midst And you know, look, I've been in this market for thirty two years now, so I've got a pretty good finger on the pulse of who's on what side of the aisle. And we get a great deal of support from both both sides of the aisle, and that has always been the case here. But I don't hear the I just don't hear that those drooling, you know, slobbering comments that you hear often on the national scene about how horrible public media is here and I and I think that's probably due in large part that the folk ooks in my area here are very very good at separating the national from local. I think they really appreciate what this station does at the local level, and for the most part, they appreciate what goes on at the national level. But there's certainly not the vitriol out there that you hear in a lot of other places. I mean, we're very fortunate to have a great deal of support in this community.

No, they do not. You're correct that. I mean, as national political discussions go, people would certainly put the state of Indiana in the red But and we do live in a very conservative area. But and I would like to think that that's because of my staff and hopefully the way that that I manage our station here, that that we we do try to manage things in a good way. And as a result, I think this community by and large sees the benefit of having a public media station in its midst And you know, look, I've been in this market for thirty two years now, so I've got a pretty good finger on the pulse of who's on what side of the aisle. And we get a great deal of support from both both sides of the aisle, and that has always been the case here. But I don't hear the I just don't hear that those drooling, you know, slobbering comments that you hear often on the national scene about how horrible public media is here and I and I think that's probably due in large part that the folk ooks in my area here are very very good at separating the national from local. I think they really appreciate what this station does at the local level, and for the most part, they appreciate what goes on at the national level. But there's certainly not the vitriol out there that you hear in a lot of other places. I mean, we're very fortunate to have a great deal of support in this community.

We'll stay with us because we're going to be digging into what this means for the future of public media and what can be done to fight against this executive order from the President. In just a moment, One Thing Trump did with w ni n's Tim Black will be right back. Welcome back to One Thing Trump did exclusively on the Middle Podcast feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This episode, we're talking about the recent executive order to end federal funding for NPR and PBS through the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and what that could mean for the future of public broadcasting. I'm joined by Tim Black, who is president and CEO of Tri State Public Media and wnin in Evansville, Indiana. Tim, you mentioned that you were just at this meeting in Washington, d C. With a lot of other general managers from around the country. What can you tell us about the mood overall and any conversations that you might have had there. And are other leaders dealing with the exact same things that you are? Is it different depending on where you are in the country and how big your market is.

We'll stay with us because we're going to be digging into what this means for the future of public media and what can be done to fight against this executive order from the President. In just a moment, One Thing Trump did with w ni n's Tim Black will be right back. Welcome back to One Thing Trump did exclusively on the Middle Podcast feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This episode, we're talking about the recent executive order to end federal funding for NPR and PBS through the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and what that could mean for the future of public broadcasting. I'm joined by Tim Black, who is president and CEO of Tri State Public Media and wnin in Evansville, Indiana. Tim, you mentioned that you were just at this meeting in Washington, d C. With a lot of other general managers from around the country. What can you tell us about the mood overall and any conversations that you might have had there. And are other leaders dealing with the exact same things that you are? Is it different depending on where you are in the country and how big your market is.

Well, I'll start the general mood. I think as won't surprise anybody. I mean that the general mood is one of nervousness and a lot of anxiety about what's going on. I think everybody agrees, especially those who who've been involved with public media for a long time. You know, public media has never really had an easy ride. It always seems to be in somebody's crosshairs. But the general feeling among most of the people I was around is one of that this time it's for real, and it's probably more serious than it's ever been. Yes, a lot of people are dealing with the very same things. I think I was going to say, Surprisingly, that's not really accurate. There are not In fact, I'm not sure there are any other states right now that are dealing with the cuts that we're dealing with in Indiana in terms of state funding getting pulled, at least for those entities that we're receiving state funding. There are a lot of states in the country that don't even offer state funding. You know. There are some stations that quite literally are two and three months away from closing their doors going off the air. They don't have reserve fundings, you know, to depend upon or whatever if they were to lose federal funding.

Well, I'll start the general mood. I think as won't surprise anybody. I mean that the general mood is one of nervousness and a lot of anxiety about what's going on. I think everybody agrees, especially those who who've been involved with public media for a long time. You know, public media has never really had an easy ride. It always seems to be in somebody's crosshairs. But the general feeling among most of the people I was around is one of that this time it's for real, and it's probably more serious than it's ever been. Yes, a lot of people are dealing with the very same things. I think I was going to say, Surprisingly, that's not really accurate. There are not In fact, I'm not sure there are any other states right now that are dealing with the cuts that we're dealing with in Indiana in terms of state funding getting pulled, at least for those entities that we're receiving state funding. There are a lot of states in the country that don't even offer state funding. You know. There are some stations that quite literally are two and three months away from closing their doors going off the air. They don't have reserve fundings, you know, to depend upon or whatever if they were to lose federal funding.

And how about NPR and PBS the big networks. Are they in trouble because this executive order specifically says that you can't use CPB money to send it to NPR for example, Are they in trouble? And also stations that have budget crunches, the most expensive thing in many cases on their budgets is sending money to NPR. For all things considered in Morning Edition.

And how about NPR and PBS the big networks. Are they in trouble because this executive order specifically says that you can't use CPB money to send it to NPR for example, Are they in trouble? And also stations that have budget crunches, the most expensive thing in many cases on their budgets is sending money to NPR. For all things considered in Morning Edition.

Those definitely are the two most expensive line items in my budget, or the licensing fees that I send to PBS and NPR in order to carry that programming. So, I mean, that's and I would suggest that that's probably true for a great number of public media stations around the country. I mean, certainly if they were facing a situation in which they weren't receiving these fees that we pay annually, we being the local stations, you know, in terms of some of the numbers that I saw and charts that I've seen even before, that portion of funding is a pretty big chunk of what the networks receive, you know, at the end of the day, though, there are also national networks that are also receiving a great deal of money from some national foundations and that kind of thing. So when you get beyond that I will say specifically, you mentioned the executive order that the President recently issued. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting has been very direct in their public comments about that that they do not see any validity in that executive order, they do not take it as legal, and they have stated again very directly that they have no intention of changing any of their practices, and they're in the process of dealing with that executive order in the courts right now, as is the case with so many of the executive orders that have come out recently.

Those definitely are the two most expensive line items in my budget, or the licensing fees that I send to PBS and NPR in order to carry that programming. So, I mean, that's and I would suggest that that's probably true for a great number of public media stations around the country. I mean, certainly if they were facing a situation in which they weren't receiving these fees that we pay annually, we being the local stations, you know, in terms of some of the numbers that I saw and charts that I've seen even before, that portion of funding is a pretty big chunk of what the networks receive, you know, at the end of the day, though, there are also national networks that are also receiving a great deal of money from some national foundations and that kind of thing. So when you get beyond that I will say specifically, you mentioned the executive order that the President recently issued. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting has been very direct in their public comments about that that they do not see any validity in that executive order, they do not take it as legal, and they have stated again very directly that they have no intention of changing any of their practices, and they're in the process of dealing with that executive order in the courts right now, as is the case with so many of the executive orders that have come out recently.

One of the things that our listeners who are not in the public media world may be noticing at this point is that there are all these different players. It's not like there's it's not like a network that owns the affiliates that there are the member stations that pay dues to carry NPR programming, for example, there's the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which is not a government agency but gets government funding, and then they give money to the stations that then give money to NPR and PBS. So it's it's kind of a mess. I mean, it's a beautiful mess, but it's a mess. But I guess my question is, are you seeing that as all of these organizations are in trouble at the same time and for the same sort of core reasons. Is there an overall strategy or does it feel like it's every man and woman for himself or herself in terms of figuring out what to do.

One of the things that our listeners who are not in the public media world may be noticing at this point is that there are all these different players. It's not like there's it's not like a network that owns the affiliates that there are the member stations that pay dues to carry NPR programming, for example, there's the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which is not a government agency but gets government funding, and then they give money to the stations that then give money to NPR and PBS. So it's it's kind of a mess. I mean, it's a beautiful mess, but it's a mess. But I guess my question is, are you seeing that as all of these organizations are in trouble at the same time and for the same sort of core reasons. Is there an overall strategy or does it feel like it's every man and woman for himself or herself in terms of figuring out what to do.

Oh boy, that's a good question, Jeremy. I I you know, I feel like that there is a there's a direction in terms of you know, right now, it seems like everything is mostly focused on what may or may not be happening on capital and I feel like, certainly there's a good handle on how all those processes work and trying to follow the correct paths in terms of communication and staying in touch with the right people. So I mean, yeah, I think in the big picture, Jeremy, I feel like, you know, people are generally moving in the same direction. You know, is there a specific plan in place? I mean, that's a tough one to answer, and you know, and I would say that's primarily because, at least from from what I've gathered recently at meetings and other conversations that we're having, you know, there's still a lot of a lot of options on the table from a federal budget standpoint, as to what could potentially happen and happen with some of these funds. I mean, obviously we've seen the executive order already, but you mentioned earlier, I mean there's possibility of recision, and then there's a possibility of impoundment of funds. I mean, there are all kinds of things out there that could happen, and so in some respects it does seem like occasionally it's a bit of a whack a mole game because you sort of have to wait and see what happens before you know what plan you're going to follow.

Oh boy, that's a good question, Jeremy. I I you know, I feel like that there is a there's a direction in terms of you know, right now, it seems like everything is mostly focused on what may or may not be happening on capital and I feel like, certainly there's a good handle on how all those processes work and trying to follow the correct paths in terms of communication and staying in touch with the right people. So I mean, yeah, I think in the big picture, Jeremy, I feel like, you know, people are generally moving in the same direction. You know, is there a specific plan in place? I mean, that's a tough one to answer, and you know, and I would say that's primarily because, at least from from what I've gathered recently at meetings and other conversations that we're having, you know, there's still a lot of a lot of options on the table from a federal budget standpoint, as to what could potentially happen and happen with some of these funds. I mean, obviously we've seen the executive order already, but you mentioned earlier, I mean there's possibility of recision, and then there's a possibility of impoundment of funds. I mean, there are all kinds of things out there that could happen, and so in some respects it does seem like occasionally it's a bit of a whack a mole game because you sort of have to wait and see what happens before you know what plan you're going to follow.

Okay, tough question, alert, Tim. Should there be more consolidation among public radio stations? Why do there need to be so many different stations? For example, in the state of Indiana, couldn't you you be part of one big statewide network.

Okay, tough question, alert, Tim. Should there be more consolidation among public radio stations? Why do there need to be so many different stations? For example, in the state of Indiana, couldn't you you be part of one big statewide network.

Well, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's a tough question, Jeremy. But I also can be very frank with you that since my cohort of stations in the state of Indiana found out that we're losing our state funding, we are already at least having the very beginnings of conversations about, you know, the possibility of some kind of consolidation. But I mean, that's just so close to the beginning. There's not a lot of detail about that yet. I mean, do there need to be fewer stations? I mean maybe so. I mean, I'll say it this way. You know, I am originally from Kentucky, and I spent most of my growing up years in the state of Kentucky. So I'm very familiar with the Kentucky Educational Television Network, which most people know is k ET, and that is I think the prime example of how statewide networks, or you can call it consolidation should be. And being familiar with that, you know, I think that works very well. And so to answer your question, you know, whether there should be more of that, I certainly think there should be more states exploring that as a possibility, because I think it can work. You know, local is such a big part of what all these stations provide to their communities. But you know, but but there is a way to continue that. You know, I also spent a good in many of my professional years in the commercial broadcast business as well as a CBS and a Fox affiliate. You know, that works pretty well too. You're you're tied to a national entity, but you also still retain a very real local presence, And I guess my opinion is that there's no reason why public media couldn't follow the same model and make something work.

Well, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's a tough question, Jeremy. But I also can be very frank with you that since my cohort of stations in the state of Indiana found out that we're losing our state funding, we are already at least having the very beginnings of conversations about, you know, the possibility of some kind of consolidation. But I mean, that's just so close to the beginning. There's not a lot of detail about that yet. I mean, do there need to be fewer stations? I mean maybe so. I mean, I'll say it this way. You know, I am originally from Kentucky, and I spent most of my growing up years in the state of Kentucky. So I'm very familiar with the Kentucky Educational Television Network, which most people know is k ET, and that is I think the prime example of how statewide networks, or you can call it consolidation should be. And being familiar with that, you know, I think that works very well. And so to answer your question, you know, whether there should be more of that, I certainly think there should be more states exploring that as a possibility, because I think it can work. You know, local is such a big part of what all these stations provide to their communities. But you know, but but there is a way to continue that. You know, I also spent a good in many of my professional years in the commercial broadcast business as well as a CBS and a Fox affiliate. You know, that works pretty well too. You're you're tied to a national entity, but you also still retain a very real local presence, And I guess my opinion is that there's no reason why public media couldn't follow the same model and make something work.

Yeah, I have to say, and this is controversial too. I don't think that at this point there should be major cities in this country that have two competing public radio stations who compete against each other, and there are many of them these days. You could easily have them be under the same umbrella so that they can go after the same donors, They can go after the same foundational support, the same corporate sponsors, and not have to be competing against each other and still serve the audience in the exact same way, even if they have two channels. Anyway, let me just ask you about some of the things that we haven't really talked about that Trump is trying to do. Number One, he's tried to fire the board members of the Corporates for Public Broadcasting that were appointed by Joe Biden that has been said to be not legal. Is that still are they still fired? What's going on with them?

Yeah, I have to say, and this is controversial too. I don't think that at this point there should be major cities in this country that have two competing public radio stations who compete against each other, and there are many of them these days. You could easily have them be under the same umbrella so that they can go after the same donors, They can go after the same foundational support, the same corporate sponsors, and not have to be competing against each other and still serve the audience in the exact same way, even if they have two channels. Anyway, let me just ask you about some of the things that we haven't really talked about that Trump is trying to do. Number One, he's tried to fire the board members of the Corporates for Public Broadcasting that were appointed by Joe Biden that has been said to be not legal. Is that still are they still fired? What's going on with them?

That is the only thing that I can report about that is I know that I think they had an initial hearing about that May fourteenth. I don't think anything has been ultimately decided with that, but yes, it seemed like from what I have gathered from the folks at CPB and at some of the meetings again, I was at that that's moving in the direction of that not being able to happen. I see, CPB technically is not a federal agency's federal dollars, but it's not necessarily under the umbrella, at least in the court's eyes of the Executive Rynch.

That is the only thing that I can report about that is I know that I think they had an initial hearing about that May fourteenth. I don't think anything has been ultimately decided with that, but yes, it seemed like from what I have gathered from the folks at CPB and at some of the meetings again, I was at that that's moving in the direction of that not being able to happen. I see, CPB technically is not a federal agency's federal dollars, but it's not necessarily under the umbrella, at least in the court's eyes of the Executive Rynch.

Yeah, the DOSE people tried to get into CPB and they could not do it for that very reason. You've talked about the idea of recision of funding that's already been appropriated. It sounds like you are not so worried about that happening.

Yeah, the DOSE people tried to get into CPB and they could not do it for that very reason. You've talked about the idea of recision of funding that's already been appropriated. It sounds like you are not so worried about that happening.

I mean, that's only tim talking from what I intending to gather, there is a feeling among the lobbyists and the people again who spend a lot of time on Capitol Hill, from both the national public media level, who believe pretty strongly that the reason we saw in executive order from the White House instead of an actual recision request to Congress is because the votes were not there for that recision request to be successful again. I only visited three individuals on Capitol Hill. I visited the congressional representative in my district here in southern Indiana, congressional representative in the district across the river in Kentucky, and one of my senators in Indiana, Senator Todd Young. I can speak very specifically that in speaking to the staff member in Senator Young's office, she made it very clear, not clear. She said to me in the office that she wouldn't come down one way or the other and say that the Senator would vote for recision or wouldn't vote for recision if asked, but that his opinion in his office is that it's not right to take money back that has been promise. So I'm taking that as a really positive statement from a Republican senator.

I mean, that's only tim talking from what I intending to gather, there is a feeling among the lobbyists and the people again who spend a lot of time on Capitol Hill, from both the national public media level, who believe pretty strongly that the reason we saw in executive order from the White House instead of an actual recision request to Congress is because the votes were not there for that recision request to be successful again. I only visited three individuals on Capitol Hill. I visited the congressional representative in my district here in southern Indiana, congressional representative in the district across the river in Kentucky, and one of my senators in Indiana, Senator Todd Young. I can speak very specifically that in speaking to the staff member in Senator Young's office, she made it very clear, not clear. She said to me in the office that she wouldn't come down one way or the other and say that the Senator would vote for recision or wouldn't vote for recision if asked, but that his opinion in his office is that it's not right to take money back that has been promise. So I'm taking that as a really positive statement from a Republican senator.

And what about the executive order that says you can't spend money on NPR programming if you get money from CPB. Is that happening.

And what about the executive order that says you can't spend money on NPR programming if you get money from CPB. Is that happening.

The only thing I can see about that, Jeremy, is from what CPB has told the stations and has also made public statements, they are not abiding by any of the directives in that executive order. Until I suppose they would say they're forced to do so because they do not. They do not see themselves as an agency of the federal government that the President has any say so or control over, and so they have stated very bluntly that they have no intention of changing any of their practices right now, and we've seen no evidence of them doing that.

The only thing I can see about that, Jeremy, is from what CPB has told the stations and has also made public statements, they are not abiding by any of the directives in that executive order. Until I suppose they would say they're forced to do so because they do not. They do not see themselves as an agency of the federal government that the President has any say so or control over, and so they have stated very bluntly that they have no intention of changing any of their practices right now, and we've seen no evidence of them doing that.

Let me finally just come back to you and WNIN and your community there. What would happen to local news in southern Indiana if there were no WNIN?

Let me finally just come back to you and WNIN and your community there. What would happen to local news in southern Indiana if there were no WNIN?

Local news has changed a lot, and I do not think for the better local news anymore on commercial television stations generally is a lot of crime and a lot of weather. There's nothing else beyond that. Newspapers, if they even still exist in a local community, are usually being funneled state wide news or national news. There's very little local reporting. You know, wni in is not perfect, and we don't have a huge newsroom, but we do still. You know, we cover our local government. We go to local community and civic meetings. We cover the city council, we cover the county council. We are doing our very best to talk to our state wide elected representatives, whether they support us or not. We feel like at WNI in and I think I can speak for a lot of public media around the country. We're reporting local community important information, civic information that need to know about, and I do not think that that is happening elsewhere in most local markets. So if you lose public media, boy, you're going to lose a lot of information that is it's necessary to democracy, whether you're talking about that on a national level or on a local level. The weather and who got arrested last night are not going to do that from a lot of other local entities, and public media still tries to take care of the things that they should be taken care of.

Local news has changed a lot, and I do not think for the better local news anymore on commercial television stations generally is a lot of crime and a lot of weather. There's nothing else beyond that. Newspapers, if they even still exist in a local community, are usually being funneled state wide news or national news. There's very little local reporting. You know, wni in is not perfect, and we don't have a huge newsroom, but we do still. You know, we cover our local government. We go to local community and civic meetings. We cover the city council, we cover the county council. We are doing our very best to talk to our state wide elected representatives, whether they support us or not. We feel like at WNI in and I think I can speak for a lot of public media around the country. We're reporting local community important information, civic information that need to know about, and I do not think that that is happening elsewhere in most local markets. So if you lose public media, boy, you're going to lose a lot of information that is it's necessary to democracy, whether you're talking about that on a national level or on a local level. The weather and who got arrested last night are not going to do that from a lot of other local entities, and public media still tries to take care of the things that they should be taken care of.

I agree with you and not to turn this into a pledge drive, But when the media ecosystem is now full of entities that are owned by billionaires, that are commercially focused, that are maybe politically motivated to have public media that is not any of those things. And it's not perfect and sometimes but nobody is. It is not perfect in terms of always being exactly as fair as you would want it to be, but nobody is. And I know from a lifetime in public media that everybody I've worked with, almost everybody I've worked with, has tried as hard as they can to truly be factual, fair, enlightened. Inform really just helped educate the society in an important way. So it is a really important part, I believe. And you know, I can't be unbiased on this one because I've been in public media my entire life. You have been in it for a very long time as well. Tim, What got you into this business in the first place.

I agree with you and not to turn this into a pledge drive, But when the media ecosystem is now full of entities that are owned by billionaires, that are commercially focused, that are maybe politically motivated to have public media that is not any of those things. And it's not perfect and sometimes but nobody is. It is not perfect in terms of always being exactly as fair as you would want it to be, but nobody is. And I know from a lifetime in public media that everybody I've worked with, almost everybody I've worked with, has tried as hard as they can to truly be factual, fair, enlightened. Inform really just helped educate the society in an important way. So it is a really important part, I believe. And you know, I can't be unbiased on this one because I've been in public media my entire life. You have been in it for a very long time as well. Tim, What got you into this business in the first place.

Well, I mean, the factual answer to that question is that, you know, being in commercial media. The local commercial station that I was managing was sold to a much larger corporate entity just sort of as you were describing. As often as the case, the top guy on the list gets thrown out, so that's what happened. Unfortunately, the local public media station picked me up. But I had always been associated with public media, and I think it's it's primarily because a lot of what you just said, Jere. I mean, I do think I feel like media. The media has a lot of power, and the individuals who work in media have a lot of power, and you can make a decision to use that in a good way or in a bad way. And I think public media does good work. They tell good stories, they put important information in front of people, and they deliver that consistently. Commercial media doesn't always do that. And I can say that because I was in it for a long time. With public media, I think it's a little different. And if you can at least put the information out there, you always have a chance of hitting people. Because it's free. I think that's important. It is free and anybody who has the ability to use an intenna or you know, whether it's turned on the radio or watch television, can get that information. And so I really like that. I like being able to do stories that are important to the community that you can't do in other places, because sometimes it's even a matter of time. We can spend the amount of time often in public media to tell a story that you don't have the ability to do in the commercial world, whereas in public media, I can take an hour and a half if I need to to tell a story. Sometimes that's necessary. So I just like that. I like the fact that it's so local. You can do important stuff in public media and you can't always do that in the commercial world.

Well, I mean, the factual answer to that question is that, you know, being in commercial media. The local commercial station that I was managing was sold to a much larger corporate entity just sort of as you were describing. As often as the case, the top guy on the list gets thrown out, so that's what happened. Unfortunately, the local public media station picked me up. But I had always been associated with public media, and I think it's it's primarily because a lot of what you just said, Jere. I mean, I do think I feel like media. The media has a lot of power, and the individuals who work in media have a lot of power, and you can make a decision to use that in a good way or in a bad way. And I think public media does good work. They tell good stories, they put important information in front of people, and they deliver that consistently. Commercial media doesn't always do that. And I can say that because I was in it for a long time. With public media, I think it's a little different. And if you can at least put the information out there, you always have a chance of hitting people. Because it's free. I think that's important. It is free and anybody who has the ability to use an intenna or you know, whether it's turned on the radio or watch television, can get that information. And so I really like that. I like being able to do stories that are important to the community that you can't do in other places, because sometimes it's even a matter of time. We can spend the amount of time often in public media to tell a story that you don't have the ability to do in the commercial world, whereas in public media, I can take an hour and a half if I need to to tell a story. Sometimes that's necessary. So I just like that. I like the fact that it's so local. You can do important stuff in public media and you can't always do that in the commercial world.

Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought up that it is free, because as we hear every week on the middle when we open the phones, you just hear from all kinds of people. You never know who's going to be listening when you don't have to pay a subscription to get the product.

Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought up that it is free, because as we hear every week on the middle when we open the phones, you just hear from all kinds of people. You never know who's going to be listening when you don't have to pay a subscription to get the product.

That's right.

That's right.

That is Tim Black, who is the president and CEO of Tri State Public Media and WNIN in Evansville, Indiana. Tim is so great to talk with you. I hope things work out well for you. You give me a little bit of optimism from this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.

That is Tim Black, who is the president and CEO of Tri State Public Media and WNIN in Evansville, Indiana. Tim is so great to talk with you. I hope things work out well for you. You give me a little bit of optimism from this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks Jeremy, and thanks you.

Thanks Jeremy, and thanks you.

For listening to One Thing Trump Did. It was produced by Harrison Patino. Our next middle episode is coming to your podcast feed later this week. We're going to be asking if the cost of solid education is still worth it. And if you like this podcast, please rate it wherever you get your podcasts and write us a review. Our theme music was composed by Noah Haid. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to you soon.

For listening to One Thing Trump Did. It was produced by Harrison Patino. Our next middle episode is coming to your podcast feed later this week. We're going to be asking if the cost of solid education is still worth it. And if you like this podcast, please rate it wherever you get your podcasts and write us a review. Our theme music was composed by Noah Haid. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to you soon.