Welcome to the middle.

Welcome to the middle.

I'm Jeremy Hobson here with Tolliver and Taliver. Are you ready for Trump? Biden too? Lost in New York?

I'm Jeremy Hobson here with Tolliver and Taliver. Are you ready for Trump? Biden too? Lost in New York?

You know, I'm so ready. But I've got to say, no sequel is ever better than the original. I don't know, man, I'm nervous.

You know, I'm so ready. But I've got to say, no sequel is ever better than the original. I don't know, man, I'm nervous.

Trump Biden two back in the habit. Okay, Well, here we are. After the Georgia primaries. The two major contenders for this year's presidential election are set.

Trump Biden two back in the habit. Okay, Well, here we are. After the Georgia primaries. The two major contenders for this year's presidential election are set.

Yet again.

Yet again.

We're looking at a contest between former President Donald Trump on the Republican side and President Joe Biden on the Democratic side. But there is also a somewhat crowded field of third party options this year. There's Robert F. Kennedy Junior. There's Cornell West and Jill Stein on the left. On the right, the Libertarian Party will choose its presidential candidate soon, and there could be a candidate from the Group No Labels. But do any of these candidates actually have a shot at winning the presidency or will they be potential spoilers, people who might siphon off just enough votes to throw the election to one of the two major party candidates. We're going to talk about that this hour. But first, last week we asked you what your state of the Union is and a lot of you based your responses on the state of the economy. Here is what one listener, just one had to say.

We're looking at a contest between former President Donald Trump on the Republican side and President Joe Biden on the Democratic side. But there is also a somewhat crowded field of third party options this year. There's Robert F. Kennedy Junior. There's Cornell West and Jill Stein on the left. On the right, the Libertarian Party will choose its presidential candidate soon, and there could be a candidate from the Group No Labels. But do any of these candidates actually have a shot at winning the presidency or will they be potential spoilers, people who might siphon off just enough votes to throw the election to one of the two major party candidates. We're going to talk about that this hour. But first, last week we asked you what your state of the Union is and a lot of you based your responses on the state of the economy. Here is what one listener, just one had to say.

My name is Jack from Tennessee. And as far as the economy, I know that it's not super great, but I mean, let's look at this. I mean, do we forget that Trump started a trade war and put like, what was it, twenty five percent tariff on Chinese goods? Did that not kick off inflation right there? And hasn't everything since then been kind of reactionary? Or am I just crazy? Either way? I mean, I understand that the economy is like a train. You know, it doesn't start moving very fast. It doesn't stop on a dime. You know, it's it takes actions in a long time for those actions to you know, make a change. I feel that we're doing doing better in a sense, but at the same time, it's not super great, but it could definitely be worse.

My name is Jack from Tennessee. And as far as the economy, I know that it's not super great, but I mean, let's look at this. I mean, do we forget that Trump started a trade war and put like, what was it, twenty five percent tariff on Chinese goods? Did that not kick off inflation right there? And hasn't everything since then been kind of reactionary? Or am I just crazy? Either way? I mean, I understand that the economy is like a train. You know, it doesn't start moving very fast. It doesn't stop on a dime. You know, it's it takes actions in a long time for those actions to you know, make a change. I feel that we're doing doing better in a sense, but at the same time, it's not super great, but it could definitely be worse.

Well, big thanks to everyone who called in last week. So now to our question this hour, is it time for a strong third party candidate in America? Or a third party candidates nothing more than spoilers, Tolliver, how can people reach us?

Well, big thanks to everyone who called in last week. So now to our question this hour, is it time for a strong third party candidate in America? Or a third party candidates nothing more than spoilers, Tolliver, how can people reach us?

You can call us at eight four four four Middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three or right in at Listen to the Middle dot com.

You can call us at eight four four four Middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three or right in at Listen to the Middle dot com.

So now let's meet our panel.

So now let's meet our panel.

Joining us from the WBHM studios in Birmingham, Alabama, former Alabama Senator Doug Jones.

Joining us from the WBHM studios in Birmingham, Alabama, former Alabama Senator Doug Jones.

Doug Jones, Welcome to the Middle.

Doug Jones, Welcome to the Middle.

Thanks Jarem, it's great to be with you tonight.

Thanks Jarem, it's great to be with you tonight.

I appreciate And from the WUWM studios in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

I appreciate And from the WUWM studios in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Doctor Julia Azari.

Doctor Julia Azari.

Professoral political science professor at Marquette University.

Professoral political science professor at Marquette University.

Professor Zori welcome to you.

Professor Zori welcome to you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Well, and before we get to the calls, let me just ask each of you some questions, Professor. A recent Reuters IPSOS poll found sixty seven percent of respondent said they are tired of seeing the same candidates in the presidential elections and want someone new. Is twenty twenty four, in your view, the year when a third party candidate could actually have a shot at the presidency.

Well, and before we get to the calls, let me just ask each of you some questions, Professor. A recent Reuters IPSOS poll found sixty seven percent of respondent said they are tired of seeing the same candidates in the presidential elections and want someone new. Is twenty twenty four, in your view, the year when a third party candidate could actually have a shot at the presidency.

I mean, this is a that's a really tall order for a third party candidate to have a shot at the presidency. And you've got to win, of course, a majority in the electoral college to get to that point. I don't think that that's I don't think that's very likely. But it is the case that third parties tend to be the way that people express their dissatisfaction with their mainstream options, and that could be a phenomenon in twenty twenty four.

I mean, this is a that's a really tall order for a third party candidate to have a shot at the presidency. And you've got to win, of course, a majority in the electoral college to get to that point. I don't think that that's I don't think that's very likely. But it is the case that third parties tend to be the way that people express their dissatisfaction with their mainstream options, and that could be a phenomenon in twenty twenty four.

And Senator Jones, I mean, you were in the Senate between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty one when there was a lot of dysfunction in our two party systems. You saw it up close and personal. It's arguably worse.

And Senator Jones, I mean, you were in the Senate between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty one when there was a lot of dysfunction in our two party systems. You saw it up close and personal. It's arguably worse.

Now.

Now.

Is it reasonable do you think for Americans to want other options?

Is it reasonable do you think for Americans to want other options?

Is it reasonable to want other options? Sure, it's always reasonable to want other options. The question is is that option got a snowballs can in hell of winning?

Is it reasonable to want other options? Sure, it's always reasonable to want other options. The question is is that option got a snowballs can in hell of winning?

And they don't.

And they don't.

A third party has absolutely an independent candidate has absolutely no chance.

A third party has absolutely an independent candidate has absolutely no chance.

It's pyeing the sky.

It's pyeing the sky.

As a professor said, this is it's a winner take all kind of thing. When you're talking about the electoral votes in every state. It's not proportional. It does winter take all in every state except Maine and Nebraska. And so with a winner take all for electors in the electoral college. You've got to get two hundred and seventy electoral of votes to win, and it can't be done now. I don't even think these independents and third parties may not even be on enough ballots in enough states to combine if they want every state to get to seventy. But it's just in today's world. And Jeremy and the professor teaches this, she knows better than I do. Historically there have been parties that come and go, but for the last one hundred and fifty years or so, America has been Democrats and Republicans.

As a professor said, this is it's a winner take all kind of thing. When you're talking about the electoral votes in every state. It's not proportional. It does winter take all in every state except Maine and Nebraska. And so with a winner take all for electors in the electoral college. You've got to get two hundred and seventy electoral of votes to win, and it can't be done now. I don't even think these independents and third parties may not even be on enough ballots in enough states to combine if they want every state to get to seventy. But it's just in today's world. And Jeremy and the professor teaches this, she knows better than I do. Historically there have been parties that come and go, but for the last one hundred and fifty years or so, America has been Democrats and Republicans.

And it's a two It's.

And it's a two It's.

Been a two party system for a couple of hundred years. It's going to remain that way. Our system, to me, is set up that way and that and that's why nobody, no one else can win well.

Been a two party system for a couple of hundred years. It's going to remain that way. Our system, to me, is set up that way and that and that's why nobody, no one else can win well.

And Professor Zari, you know, Doug Jones just brought up the electoral college. There are a lot of things that just make it very difficult for a third party. The system is almost stacked against a third party making it happen, including ballot access.

And Professor Zari, you know, Doug Jones just brought up the electoral college. There are a lot of things that just make it very difficult for a third party. The system is almost stacked against a third party making it happen, including ballot access.

Yeah, that's true. I mean there's a couple of components to this problem. Right on the one hand, we have, just as a former seditor pointed out, a lot of winner take all elements to our system that make it really difficult for multiple parties to kind of sustain themselves. The other thing I would note though, is, of course it's really difficult to win the presidency. Of course, the two parties control ballot access, and in many states it's difficult to get on the ballot. But the other piece of that is that the presidency is a tough place to start. That tends to be that has tended to historically been the place where third party movements have been able to recruit th kind of a charismatic or well known candidate or somebody who's breaking off from one of the two major parties because of some very specific policy oriented frustration. And so it makes sense that the presidency would be sort of a place to launch that protest candidacy. But if you wanted to really see more, more choice and more flexibility in the party system, the place to do it is locally, and that's a place where it would be possible, i think, for even for multiple parties potentially to sustain themselves over time. But the presidency it's a very high stakes contest and it has a lot of moving parts. You have to run successfully in a lot of states, gain ballot access in a lot of states. It's just a very difficult, difficult kind of campaign to pull off.

Yeah, that's true. I mean there's a couple of components to this problem. Right on the one hand, we have, just as a former seditor pointed out, a lot of winner take all elements to our system that make it really difficult for multiple parties to kind of sustain themselves. The other thing I would note though, is, of course it's really difficult to win the presidency. Of course, the two parties control ballot access, and in many states it's difficult to get on the ballot. But the other piece of that is that the presidency is a tough place to start. That tends to be that has tended to historically been the place where third party movements have been able to recruit th kind of a charismatic or well known candidate or somebody who's breaking off from one of the two major parties because of some very specific policy oriented frustration. And so it makes sense that the presidency would be sort of a place to launch that protest candidacy. But if you wanted to really see more, more choice and more flexibility in the party system, the place to do it is locally, and that's a place where it would be possible, i think, for even for multiple parties potentially to sustain themselves over time. But the presidency it's a very high stakes contest and it has a lot of moving parts. You have to run successfully in a lot of states, gain ballot access in a lot of states. It's just a very difficult, difficult kind of campaign to pull off.

Let's get to the phones, because we've got some calls coming in Basel Is joining us from Houston, Texas.

Let's get to the phones, because we've got some calls coming in Basel Is joining us from Houston, Texas.

Welcome to the middle Go ahead. What do you think.

Welcome to the middle Go ahead. What do you think.

I think we desperately need a cert candidate right now. It's the only way for this country not to end up like every other great empire falling apart. I've lived about twenty years of my life in Syria before I came to the United States. Obviously I left because of the war and the politics that I'm seeing right now. This rhetoric, politicized rhetoric, is what I saw in the Middle East.

I think we desperately need a cert candidate right now. It's the only way for this country not to end up like every other great empire falling apart. I've lived about twenty years of my life in Syria before I came to the United States. Obviously I left because of the war and the politics that I'm seeing right now. This rhetoric, politicized rhetoric, is what I saw in the Middle East.

And so.

And so.

The fact that in twenty sixteen, the options were either Trump or Hillary Clinton, and we already had Bill Clinton served before his president So where we're seeing this family type of presidential candidates is what disturbs me.

The fact that in twenty sixteen, the options were either Trump or Hillary Clinton, and we already had Bill Clinton served before his president So where we're seeing this family type of presidential candidates is what disturbs me.

And are you worried at all though about the idea of a third party candidate being a spoiler puzzle?

And are you worried at all though about the idea of a third party candidate being a spoiler puzzle?

Honestly spoiling what because everybody is set up. Nobody wants Trump versus Biden. Everybody wants somebody new. The fact that we can get somebody new is what the spoiler is. We already know that it's going to be Trump versus Biden because of the way the system is set up, and whoever wins is going to be a loss for the country, for the people. Nobody wants to either trumpter Biden. Why can't we get somebody new? That does it have to escalate that people have to go I and just to get what they want?

Honestly spoiling what because everybody is set up. Nobody wants Trump versus Biden. Everybody wants somebody new. The fact that we can get somebody new is what the spoiler is. We already know that it's going to be Trump versus Biden because of the way the system is set up, and whoever wins is going to be a loss for the country, for the people. Nobody wants to either trumpter Biden. Why can't we get somebody new? That does it have to escalate that people have to go I and just to get what they want?

Bozzil, thank you so much for that call. Let me take that to Senator Jones.

Bozzil, thank you so much for that call. Let me take that to Senator Jones.

Well, I just I disagree with him on the very front end, but nobody wants somebody I mean, Joe Biden had an incredible support among Democrats. You know all of these polls that people here Jeremy are saying, would you consider a third party? Would you consider I'm not real happy with Are you really happy with these folks? Well, okay, I'll.

Well, I just I disagree with him on the very front end, but nobody wants somebody I mean, Joe Biden had an incredible support among Democrats. You know all of these polls that people here Jeremy are saying, would you consider a third party? Would you consider I'm not real happy with Are you really happy with these folks? Well, okay, I'll.

Give him that.

Give him that.

Joe Biden is not the young spras self that he used to be when I first met him forty something years ago. But the fact of the matter is that Democrats overwhelmingly put him into where he is. And the fact is that a lot of people could have had some choices. They did have choices in the Republican primary, but they chose Donald Trump. There were any number of people that they could have come out to vote for and they didn't.

Joe Biden is not the young spras self that he used to be when I first met him forty something years ago. But the fact of the matter is that Democrats overwhelmingly put him into where he is. And the fact is that a lot of people could have had some choices. They did have choices in the Republican primary, but they chose Donald Trump. There were any number of people that they could have come out to vote for and they didn't.

So I understand how people feel. I get that.

So I understand how people feel. I get that.

But at the end of the day, I think that people will gravitate back toward their respective positions and maybe the country does want somebody and new, but that's not going to be this year.

But at the end of the day, I think that people will gravitate back toward their respective positions and maybe the country does want somebody and new, but that's not going to be this year.

And that's the hand where dealt.

And that's the hand where dealt.

And I don't think any third party, including Basil, was concerned about the family. We've got a Kennedy in there. They've just been much. Is anybody well, this is not going to.

And I don't think any third party, including Basil, was concerned about the family. We've got a Kennedy in there. They've just been much. Is anybody well, this is not going to.

Be the year?

Be the year?

What do you think, professor? And by the way, speaking of the Kennedy and their Robert F. Kennedy, he's polling in some places, you know, fifteen percent of the polls, and many people think that's just because of his name recognition.

What do you think, professor? And by the way, speaking of the Kennedy and their Robert F. Kennedy, he's polling in some places, you know, fifteen percent of the polls, and many people think that's just because of his name recognition.

That's probably true. I think name recognition is a big part of it. And that actually speaks to some of the dynamics that the caller is talking about here about having political families, about the fact that even if and I actually agree with with Senator Jones that that Biden and Trump are both pretty popular among the partisans of their respective parties. And I know that that's not the typical narrative that we hear, but I've sort of looked into these polls and that's that's pretty much the case that they're doing well.

That's probably true. I think name recognition is a big part of it. And that actually speaks to some of the dynamics that the caller is talking about here about having political families, about the fact that even if and I actually agree with with Senator Jones that that Biden and Trump are both pretty popular among the partisans of their respective parties. And I know that that's not the typical narrative that we hear, but I've sort of looked into these polls and that's that's pretty much the case that they're doing well.

They're doing well in their primaries among Democrats for Biden and Republicans for Trump.

They're doing well in their primaries among Democrats for Biden and Republicans for Trump.

They are. Yeah, and also if you look at at their approval and favorability within their parties, So yeah, But you know, nevertheless, right, why isn't there more Why wasn't there more contestation? Why isn't it easier to contest an incumbent president? That really gets at, I think some dynamics in our system where it takes a really long time time, a lot of money, a lot of name recognition to win. And so I do think even though I think it's not very realistic that a third party candidate is going to win the presidency this year or anytime soon, I think that it's important to talk about these dynamics because it is getting at real aspects of our political system that do seem kind of the word that academics like to use is ossified right, difficult to difficult to change.

They are. Yeah, and also if you look at at their approval and favorability within their parties, So yeah, But you know, nevertheless, right, why isn't there more Why wasn't there more contestation? Why isn't it easier to contest an incumbent president? That really gets at, I think some dynamics in our system where it takes a really long time time, a lot of money, a lot of name recognition to win. And so I do think even though I think it's not very realistic that a third party candidate is going to win the presidency this year or anytime soon, I think that it's important to talk about these dynamics because it is getting at real aspects of our political system that do seem kind of the word that academics like to use is ossified right, difficult to difficult to change.

You know, Tolliver.

You know, Tolliver.

If you look back over the last one hundred years, there have been three somewhat successful third party candidates, most recently back in nineteen ninety two.

If you look back over the last one hundred years, there have been three somewhat successful third party candidates, most recently back in nineteen ninety two.

Yeah, and ninety two, Ross Perot ran for the presidency. He ran again in ninety six as an independent candidate. And here he is addressing a crowd of supporters doing his during his ninety six campaign.

Yeah, and ninety two, Ross Perot ran for the presidency. He ran again in ninety six as an independent candidate. And here he is addressing a crowd of supporters doing his during his ninety six campaign.

Do you want a government that comes at you from Washington?

Do you want a government that comes at you from Washington?

Or do you want a government that comes from you?

Or do you want a government that comes from you?

Okay?

Okay?

Who do the people in Washington work for?

Who do the people in Washington work for?

Who pays their salaries?

Who pays their salaries?

I couldn't really tell what they were saying.

I couldn't really tell what they were saying.

It's just like it's hard to hear the response from the crowd.

It's just like it's hard to hear the response from the crowd.

Perok got almost twenty percent of the popular vote in nineteen ninety two, meaning Bill Clinton was able to win the presidency with just forty three percent of the popow.

Perok got almost twenty percent of the popular vote in nineteen ninety two, meaning Bill Clinton was able to win the presidency with just forty three percent of the popow.

Wow, and that was in nineteen ninety two. It feels like it was just yesterday. Six.

Wow, and that was in nineteen ninety two. It feels like it was just yesterday. Six.

Well, we will be right back with more of the middle in a moment. This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we're asking is it time for a strong third party option in American politics? Or are third parties just spoilers?

Well, we will be right back with more of the middle in a moment. This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we're asking is it time for a strong third party option in American politics? Or are third parties just spoilers?

You can call us with your thoughts at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.

You can call us with your thoughts at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.

I'm joined by former Alabama Senator Doug Jones, a Democrat, and political scientist Julia Azari at Marquette University. And the phones are lighting up, So let's go to Robert, who is outside Greensboro, North Carolina. Robert, Welcome to the Middle.

I'm joined by former Alabama Senator Doug Jones, a Democrat, and political scientist Julia Azari at Marquette University. And the phones are lighting up, So let's go to Robert, who is outside Greensboro, North Carolina. Robert, Welcome to the Middle.

Go ahead, they there.

Go ahead, they there.

I just wanted to say thank you so much for this show. When I heard the promo earlier, I got really psyched and I actually canceled my plans. But I've been an independent my whole life, and I've wanted a mainstream third party forever. And all I was going to say is, I think the things that it's going to take in my opinion, is media You guys are the first media pretty much that I've heard, like No Labels announced they're gonna you know, they made their big decision they're going to run a candidate, and it barely made the news. I told my mom, she watches TV all the time and she's never even heard of No Labels, you know, which is which is pretty crazy, the lack of media coverage.

I just wanted to say thank you so much for this show. When I heard the promo earlier, I got really psyched and I actually canceled my plans. But I've been an independent my whole life, and I've wanted a mainstream third party forever. And all I was going to say is, I think the things that it's going to take in my opinion, is media You guys are the first media pretty much that I've heard, like No Labels announced they're gonna you know, they made their big decision they're going to run a candidate, and it barely made the news. I told my mom, she watches TV all the time and she's never even heard of No Labels, you know, which is which is pretty crazy, the lack of media coverage.

But they have.

But they have.

Yeah, to be clear, they have not found a candidate for No Labels yet. Somebody will agree to run on that ticket, right.

Yeah, to be clear, they have not found a candidate for No Labels yet. Somebody will agree to run on that ticket, right.

Right, But they did in this that one hundred percent for sure that there they are going to put fourth candidates And what I understand I could be wrong, but within the next two weeks that they're going to announce both a president and vice president together is the way I understand it. But just a real quick lastly, I just wanted to say it's going to take independence. You know, we outnumber Democrats and Republicans though you know the media never tells you that, but we have to coalesce around the candidates. If we have a splinter group that wants Nicky Haley, spinner group that wants Robert Kennedy, you know, obviously it's not going to work.

Right, But they did in this that one hundred percent for sure that there they are going to put fourth candidates And what I understand I could be wrong, but within the next two weeks that they're going to announce both a president and vice president together is the way I understand it. But just a real quick lastly, I just wanted to say it's going to take independence. You know, we outnumber Democrats and Republicans though you know the media never tells you that, but we have to coalesce around the candidates. If we have a splinter group that wants Nicky Haley, spinner group that wants Robert Kennedy, you know, obviously it's not going to work.

My question to.

My question to.

You guys is how does No Labels or anybody else at this point make sure that they're on every state ballot this year because I know they're you know, the mainstream parties are going to be fighting that.

You guys is how does No Labels or anybody else at this point make sure that they're on every state ballot this year because I know they're you know, the mainstream parties are going to be fighting that.

Robert, thank you for that call.

Robert, thank you for that call.

I'm going to take that to the professor because it gets to the issue of ballot access. I mean, No Labels I think right now, is on something like thirteen ballots. Not a lot of swing states in there either, But how do they get on ballots if they want to be on ballots and if they actually get a candidate at some point that's going to be.

I'm going to take that to the professor because it gets to the issue of ballot access. I mean, No Labels I think right now, is on something like thirteen ballots. Not a lot of swing states in there either, But how do they get on ballots if they want to be on ballots and if they actually get a candidate at some point that's going to be.

A different answer in fifty different states actually fifty one with the District of Columbia, and I don't know the ballot access rules off the top of my head in all fifty one. So there will be some states where they are and some where they are and it's pretty late in the game. So that's if they don't have it. If they don't have it in the works, I mean, this is one of the challenges of gaining access as a minor party is you have to navigate all those different rules. And it's true that the major parties in some states will have made that ballot access different difficult, not everywhere.

A different answer in fifty different states actually fifty one with the District of Columbia, and I don't know the ballot access rules off the top of my head in all fifty one. So there will be some states where they are and some where they are and it's pretty late in the game. So that's if they don't have it. If they don't have it in the works, I mean, this is one of the challenges of gaining access as a minor party is you have to navigate all those different rules. And it's true that the major parties in some states will have made that ballot access different difficult, not everywhere.

Let's go to Lori in Boulder, Colorado. Louri, welcome to the middle, Go ahead, thank you.

Let's go to Lori in Boulder, Colorado. Louri, welcome to the middle, Go ahead, thank you.

So I am against having a third party this coming year because unfortunately voted for John Anderson back a while ago and deprived Jimmy Carter of being re elected and that ushered in the era of Ronald Reagan. So I really regret my vote back then.

So I am against having a third party this coming year because unfortunately voted for John Anderson back a while ago and deprived Jimmy Carter of being re elected and that ushered in the era of Ronald Reagan. So I really regret my vote back then.

Wow.

Wow.

And so I think that a third party would be disastrous for half of the country.

And so I think that a third party would be disastrous for half of the country.

Laurie, thank you. I'll take that to Senator Jones. Senator Jones, you know this is that's interesting to hear Laurie talk about her regret about a vote for a third party. I guess back in nineteen eighty, But what about you know, do you blame Ralph Nader for George W. Bush winning in two thousand? Do you blame Jill Stein for I mean.

Laurie, thank you. I'll take that to Senator Jones. Senator Jones, you know this is that's interesting to hear Laurie talk about her regret about a vote for a third party. I guess back in nineteen eighty, But what about you know, do you blame Ralph Nader for George W. Bush winning in two thousand? Do you blame Jill Stein for I mean.

Yes, yes, absolutely, both of those. Absolutely.

Yes, yes, absolutely, both of those. Absolutely.

You look at the number of votes that were Nator drew from he drew from al Gore. Al Gore barely lost the presidency just because of the state of Florida. And I think Nader got over half a billion votes here and Gore lost by a handful. The same is true in twenty sixteen, and I've got those numbers, Jeremy. I mean, you look at the six swing states in twenty sixteen, Donald Trump carried all of them by very small percentages, and the third party vote in those states, and Jill Stein but also Gary Johnson, if you remember correctly, was anywhere from three and a half to like five percent in each of those six states. In twenty twenty, that vote was down to less than a point and a half the much fewer third party votes, and Joe Biden won all of those six states.

You look at the number of votes that were Nator drew from he drew from al Gore. Al Gore barely lost the presidency just because of the state of Florida. And I think Nader got over half a billion votes here and Gore lost by a handful. The same is true in twenty sixteen, and I've got those numbers, Jeremy. I mean, you look at the six swing states in twenty sixteen, Donald Trump carried all of them by very small percentages, and the third party vote in those states, and Jill Stein but also Gary Johnson, if you remember correctly, was anywhere from three and a half to like five percent in each of those six states. In twenty twenty, that vote was down to less than a point and a half the much fewer third party votes, and Joe Biden won all of those six states.

Professor, this is your trusty DJ Tolliver. So we're talking about enthusiasm a lot this election or lack thereof. Is there any evidence to show that if voting was compulsory that a third party candidate will be more likely to be elected.

Professor, this is your trusty DJ Tolliver. So we're talking about enthusiasm a lot this election or lack thereof. Is there any evidence to show that if voting was compulsory that a third party candidate will be more likely to be elected.

I don't know of any. It's possible if we had compulsory voting of the parties would look a lot different, but we still the thing that really drives the two party system is the winner take all electoral system. So you know, it's possible that we would have more movement in the parties that the parties would be really different from decade to decade, or just they would be more representative of the concerns of young people or of other groups of people that don't vote at higher rates. But it's really that it's to give, you know, the boring political science answer. It really is the structure that drives the two party problem. With the two party phenomenon.

I don't know of any. It's possible if we had compulsory voting of the parties would look a lot different, but we still the thing that really drives the two party system is the winner take all electoral system. So you know, it's possible that we would have more movement in the parties that the parties would be really different from decade to decade, or just they would be more representative of the concerns of young people or of other groups of people that don't vote at higher rates. But it's really that it's to give, you know, the boring political science answer. It really is the structure that drives the two party problem. With the two party phenomenon.

Let's go to Harry in Missouri City, Texas, a place I have not heard of, but welcome Harry to the middle and let us know.

Let's go to Harry in Missouri City, Texas, a place I have not heard of, but welcome Harry to the middle and let us know.

What do you think about a third party?

What do you think about a third party?

Hello, Yeah, I've called the show before. I talked about Donald Trump being elected to gener and you had a show on Donald Trump about three weeks ago. But I think there should be ranked choice. I think there should be ranked choice voting. I think Congress, I think the Senate and the House need to some point look at getting up a strong third party on the ballot so people have that to choose from. Because you know me, I'm an independent now I don't. I used to vote Democrats, but I don't like Joe Biden's handling of Gaza with Israel and the Judean.

Hello, Yeah, I've called the show before. I talked about Donald Trump being elected to gener and you had a show on Donald Trump about three weeks ago. But I think there should be ranked choice. I think there should be ranked choice voting. I think Congress, I think the Senate and the House need to some point look at getting up a strong third party on the ballot so people have that to choose from. Because you know me, I'm an independent now I don't. I used to vote Democrats, but I don't like Joe Biden's handling of Gaza with Israel and the Judean.

People, and I don't like I don't like Donald Trump. Getting back in there. I think he's a criminal.

People, and I don't like I don't like Donald Trump. Getting back in there. I think he's a criminal.

As I talked about.

As I talked about.

I'm voting for doctor Cornos. I already voted for him in the primary because I'm even though with the Missouri City Texas, I'm still registered in California. So I voted my asty ballot and wrote in doctor Cornel West And if he's on the when he is the ballot again for the general, I'll be voting for him again. But I just think you should vote your conscious. If you don't like the Republican or the Democrats politics or policies, I think people should vote their conscious. They should go for strongly, will believe, and who can run. Then if that's the third party person, then they should go ahead and vote for Harry.

I'm voting for doctor Cornos. I already voted for him in the primary because I'm even though with the Missouri City Texas, I'm still registered in California. So I voted my asty ballot and wrote in doctor Cornel West And if he's on the when he is the ballot again for the general, I'll be voting for him again. But I just think you should vote your conscious. If you don't like the Republican or the Democrats politics or policies, I think people should vote their conscious. They should go for strongly, will believe, and who can run. Then if that's the third party person, then they should go ahead and vote for Harry.

Harry, We've got it. Let me let me take that to Doug Jones.

Harry, We've got it. Let me let me take that to Doug Jones.

Senator Jones, what do you say to people like Harry who clearly on the left but want to vote for a corner West because of something like Gaza.

Senator Jones, what do you say to people like Harry who clearly on the left but want to vote for a corner West because of something like Gaza.

There's a lot of them, you know.

There's a lot of them, you know.

Look, I agree with that, but I think that at the end of the day, a vote a conscience. You've got to understand what your vote is actually going to do.

Look, I agree with that, but I think that at the end of the day, a vote a conscience. You've got to understand what your vote is actually going to do.

Is it just going to be a statement.

Is it just going to be a statement.

Okay, that's fine, and I appreciate that, I absolutely do. And I think people are have traditionally voted their conscience. Unfortunately, you know, they voted their conscience when they voted for George Wallace and strom Thurman in a different way. But the fact of the matter is that when you vote that conscience, you also have to consider what are the consequences of your vote.

Okay, that's fine, and I appreciate that, I absolutely do. And I think people are have traditionally voted their conscience. Unfortunately, you know, they voted their conscience when they voted for George Wallace and strom Thurman in a different way. But the fact of the matter is that when you vote that conscience, you also have to consider what are the consequences of your vote.

All votes have some consequences.

All votes have some consequences.

And then this election, in this election, a vote from somebody that we just heard from who is generally more progressive on the left, if that goes anywhere other than Joe Biden, that is a vote for Donald Trump because of the winner take all state elections that we have. If it's winner take all, you are taking away a vote and you're essentially giving it to somebody else. And I think that that's really important for people to understand and remember. It is great to stand up and stand and be counted that way, but at the end of the day, you have to look what is the unintended consequence of your vote. That's when we get it into this spoiler a thing that I believe that most of these third party candidates, if not all of them will be a spoiler in favor of Donald Trump, especially in those battlegrounds.

And then this election, in this election, a vote from somebody that we just heard from who is generally more progressive on the left, if that goes anywhere other than Joe Biden, that is a vote for Donald Trump because of the winner take all state elections that we have. If it's winner take all, you are taking away a vote and you're essentially giving it to somebody else. And I think that that's really important for people to understand and remember. It is great to stand up and stand and be counted that way, but at the end of the day, you have to look what is the unintended consequence of your vote. That's when we get it into this spoiler a thing that I believe that most of these third party candidates, if not all of them will be a spoiler in favor of Donald Trump, especially in those battlegrounds.

Professor Asari, this is the we've heard about winner take all a few times. I can't remember those words being in the Constitution. Where did the winner take all system come or why do we use that?

Professor Asari, this is the we've heard about winner take all a few times. I can't remember those words being in the Constitution. Where did the winner take all system come or why do we use that?

We have we have single member districts that elect our our congressional districts. I mean, if we want to talk about the constitution, the Constitution does not use single member districts or winner take all. It does lay out the sort of idea about what congressional districts should look like, and the sort of specifies, you know, how large they should be and within some parameters, and it sets up two senators per state, and it sets it does set up the electoral College. It doesn't say that every state has to be winner take all, and as the senator pointed out, not every state is. But those are just sort of the that's just sort of the way the system has has evolved over time. We don't have a system where we have multi member districts. So that's what I'm getting wonky here. But you ask, so some countries have a system where you might have a district like say where I'm at in the state of Wisconsin, You've got eight congressional seats, and so the party that gets some percentage of the vote gets sixty percent of the vote get sixty percent of the seats. That means a smaller party that can get ten percent of the vote maybe can get you know, ten percent of the seats, or can get one seat or whatever. We don't have that. So if you get ten percent of the vote, you get zero percent of the seats. Because every district elects one member, and in the case of the Senate, of course, you know, it's one member elected at a time. So that's that's kind of how that works. I hope that's a good on the fly explanation.

We have we have single member districts that elect our our congressional districts. I mean, if we want to talk about the constitution, the Constitution does not use single member districts or winner take all. It does lay out the sort of idea about what congressional districts should look like, and the sort of specifies, you know, how large they should be and within some parameters, and it sets up two senators per state, and it sets it does set up the electoral College. It doesn't say that every state has to be winner take all, and as the senator pointed out, not every state is. But those are just sort of the that's just sort of the way the system has has evolved over time. We don't have a system where we have multi member districts. So that's what I'm getting wonky here. But you ask, so some countries have a system where you might have a district like say where I'm at in the state of Wisconsin, You've got eight congressional seats, and so the party that gets some percentage of the vote gets sixty percent of the vote get sixty percent of the seats. That means a smaller party that can get ten percent of the vote maybe can get you know, ten percent of the seats, or can get one seat or whatever. We don't have that. So if you get ten percent of the vote, you get zero percent of the seats. Because every district elects one member, and in the case of the Senate, of course, you know, it's one member elected at a time. So that's that's kind of how that works. I hope that's a good on the fly explanation.

Thank you for that constitutional explanation. Let's go to Terran, who's in Salt Lake City, Utah. Hi, Terran, what do you think should there be a strong third party? I?

Thank you for that constitutional explanation. Let's go to Terran, who's in Salt Lake City, Utah. Hi, Terran, what do you think should there be a strong third party? I?

You know, I really believe that a third party candidate and third party parties are necessary at this point, especially in local elections, especially in state elections. And I think those types of groundworks of actual parties that can truly do work much more so than a presidential candidate can, being able to direct that information and form proper coalitions with people is necessary to help us continue to operate this democracy and continue to thrive and and make sure that we're happy and healthy. And I think part of that too is, you know, we need to really update how our elections run. I believe the electoral college should be abolished, and I think proportional voting is necessary, especially for states like Utah where we have a heavy, you know, conservative Republican demographic, and you also have very liberal cities that separate themselves, much like with Texas and Austin. It's it's necessary to make sure that those people's voices are also heard as well as the people that you know live in role with call and those people's voices matter as well.

You know, I really believe that a third party candidate and third party parties are necessary at this point, especially in local elections, especially in state elections. And I think those types of groundworks of actual parties that can truly do work much more so than a presidential candidate can, being able to direct that information and form proper coalitions with people is necessary to help us continue to operate this democracy and continue to thrive and and make sure that we're happy and healthy. And I think part of that too is, you know, we need to really update how our elections run. I believe the electoral college should be abolished, and I think proportional voting is necessary, especially for states like Utah where we have a heavy, you know, conservative Republican demographic, and you also have very liberal cities that separate themselves, much like with Texas and Austin. It's it's necessary to make sure that those people's voices are also heard as well as the people that you know live in role with call and those people's voices matter as well.

All Right, Tarin, thank you so much. We've got it, and I'm going to go to Jerry, who's in Long Island, New York. Jerry, what do you think should there be a third party this year? A strong third party?

All Right, Tarin, thank you so much. We've got it, and I'm going to go to Jerry, who's in Long Island, New York. Jerry, what do you think should there be a third party this year? A strong third party?

No?

No?

Absolutely not. Two reasons. First reason, Donald Trump is an existential threat to the country and also to the planet, so because he's in the race, no way. But secondarily, I think they should have to be they should be forced to win seats in Congress. I don't think any third party should be allowed on the ballot for a presidential candidate until they win ten percent of the seats in the House and ten percent of the seats in the Senate. I believe in building a third party from the ground up, not from the top down. So let them contest races in the Senate and the House of Representatives, and when they get ten percent in both chambers of Congress, then let them get on the ballot and a presidential race.

Absolutely not. Two reasons. First reason, Donald Trump is an existential threat to the country and also to the planet, so because he's in the race, no way. But secondarily, I think they should have to be they should be forced to win seats in Congress. I don't think any third party should be allowed on the ballot for a presidential candidate until they win ten percent of the seats in the House and ten percent of the seats in the Senate. I believe in building a third party from the ground up, not from the top down. So let them contest races in the Senate and the House of Representatives, and when they get ten percent in both chambers of Congress, then let them get on the ballot and a presidential race.

Interesting, I did you've thought about this, Jerry, thank you for that call. And Doug Jones, what do you say to.

Interesting, I did you've thought about this, Jerry, thank you for that call. And Doug Jones, what do you say to.

People.

People.

It's clear that there are a lot of listeners calling in who say I want a third party, and even if they do want a third party, they might not want one this year.

It's clear that there are a lot of listeners calling in who say I want a third party, and even if they do want a third party, they might not want one this year.

Well, I think that that's an important distinction. Number.

Well, I think that that's an important distinction. Number.

First of all, the last two callers are absolutely right about a number of things, and it was consistent with what the professor said earlier. A third party is welcome on the state and local level. They need to build up, they need to work as a real party instead of just all of a sudden having somebody at the top of a ticket.

First of all, the last two callers are absolutely right about a number of things, and it was consistent with what the professor said earlier. A third party is welcome on the state and local level. They need to build up, they need to work as a real party instead of just all of a sudden having somebody at the top of a ticket.

That's really not a ticket. It's just two candidates.

That's really not a ticket. It's just two candidates.

And how in the world are they going to even govern if they were to get elected.

And how in the world are they going to even govern if they were to get elected.

It's going to be impossible. And so I think building.

It's going to be impossible. And so I think building.

That up is really, I think, very strong, and that's what I would basically argue. I just don't think that right now, and I think the last caller said it best. And again I am unabashedly biased here, but I agree with the caller about this year.

That up is really, I think, very strong, and that's what I would basically argue. I just don't think that right now, and I think the last caller said it best. And again I am unabashedly biased here, but I agree with the caller about this year.

This is not the time to take a chance on that. This is not the time.

This is not the time to take a chance on that. This is not the time.

When democracy has more at stake on this election than it has been since the Civil War.

When democracy has more at stake on this election than it has been since the Civil War.

This is the time to.

This is the time to.

Stick with where you are and who is best to carry forward the democratic ideals, the democracy that we've enjoyed in this country for so long. And I think that I agree with I certainly agree with the last caller about former President Trump being an existential threat to democracy.

Stick with where you are and who is best to carry forward the democratic ideals, the democracy that we've enjoyed in this country for so long. And I think that I agree with I certainly agree with the last caller about former President Trump being an existential threat to democracy.

In this country.

In this country.

Tolliver, some messages are coming in online.

Tolliver, some messages are coming in online.

Absolutely, Cody writes, it has always been time for a strong third party. The lesser of two evils mentality has been hurting us politically since we first closed ranks behind just two parties.

Absolutely, Cody writes, it has always been time for a strong third party. The lesser of two evils mentality has been hurting us politically since we first closed ranks behind just two parties.

So, professor, what about that?

So, professor, what about that?

It's sort of the if not now, when, And we just heard a caller say that they wanted, you know, to the third party to be built up first. But when is that going to happen.

It's sort of the if not now, when, And we just heard a caller say that they wanted, you know, to the third party to be built up first. But when is that going to happen.

I don't know when that's going to happen. I think one of the colors a few minutes ago made an excellent point, which is that there needs to be some coalescing happening, and I think that's been kind of the challenge with these third party movements. People kind of say, well, I want more choices, I want more choices. But ultimately, the active voting isn't just about having a choice. It's also about once you've expressed that choice, that the people you voted for being able to do something for you. And that's always going to involve a coalition. So if it's not the lesser of two evils, it's going to be the lesser of three or four evils, in the sense that you're always going to have to make some kind of compromise. I mean that being said, I think there are movements on the ground. The Tea Party movement in the last decade was such a movement to move the Republican Party. It in fact it has and there are movements, similar movements on the left. It's just those movements tend to get co opted into one of the two major parties.

I don't know when that's going to happen. I think one of the colors a few minutes ago made an excellent point, which is that there needs to be some coalescing happening, and I think that's been kind of the challenge with these third party movements. People kind of say, well, I want more choices, I want more choices. But ultimately, the active voting isn't just about having a choice. It's also about once you've expressed that choice, that the people you voted for being able to do something for you. And that's always going to involve a coalition. So if it's not the lesser of two evils, it's going to be the lesser of three or four evils, in the sense that you're always going to have to make some kind of compromise. I mean that being said, I think there are movements on the ground. The Tea Party movement in the last decade was such a movement to move the Republican Party. It in fact it has and there are movements, similar movements on the left. It's just those movements tend to get co opted into one of the two major parties.

Senator Jones, by the way, it seems like the Democrats have more to lose from a third party candidate this year than the Republicans.

Senator Jones, by the way, it seems like the Democrats have more to lose from a third party candidate this year than the Republicans.

Do you think that's right?

Do you think that's right?

Oh?

Oh?

For sure, Yeah, I don't think there's if you look at the candidates that are out there, and by the way, none of these people are third parties. We keep talking about third parties, but Robert F. Kennedy is an independent, Cornell West is an independent. They don't have a party. They're just out there on their own with their own egos out there running. So I think that people have to remember that even though Labels is not a party at this well.

For sure, Yeah, I don't think there's if you look at the candidates that are out there, and by the way, none of these people are third parties. We keep talking about third parties, but Robert F. Kennedy is an independent, Cornell West is an independent. They don't have a party. They're just out there on their own with their own egos out there running. So I think that people have to remember that even though Labels is not a party at this well.

In fact, Cornell West, I think, has represented four parties since the start of this campaign year.

In fact, Cornell West, I think, has represented four parties since the start of this campaign year.

Tolliver, you know, he only got two point.

Tolliver, you know, he only got two point.

Seven percent of the popular vote in two thousand, but a lot of people, as we've talked about, think the candidacy of Ralph Nader made the difference in that incredibly tight election between Gore and bush yep.

Seven percent of the popular vote in two thousand, but a lot of people, as we've talked about, think the candidacy of Ralph Nader made the difference in that incredibly tight election between Gore and bush yep.

The margin in the decisive state of Florida was five hundred and thirty seven votes. Nator got almost one hundred thousand votes in Florida. Here he is railing against America's two party system in two thousand.

The margin in the decisive state of Florida was five hundred and thirty seven votes. Nator got almost one hundred thousand votes in Florida. Here he is railing against America's two party system in two thousand.

Well, they're going to get politics as usual unless they stop staying at home or stopped voting for the least of the worst or lesser of two evils, ensuring that every four years both parties get worse and you still got evil. The important thing for people to understand is that if they don't want more power to address their grievances, to achieve justice and to help shape the future of our country for their children and grandchildren, they can go vote for Al Gore or George W. Buch.

Well, they're going to get politics as usual unless they stop staying at home or stopped voting for the least of the worst or lesser of two evils, ensuring that every four years both parties get worse and you still got evil. The important thing for people to understand is that if they don't want more power to address their grievances, to achieve justice and to help shape the future of our country for their children and grandchildren, they can go vote for Al Gore or George W. Buch.

Wow, it seems different listening to it now in hindsight. We will be right back in a minute with more of the middle.

Wow, it seems different listening to it now in hindsight. We will be right back in a minute with more of the middle.

This is the middle.

This is the middle.

I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just joining us, we are asking you if it is time for a strong, viable third party option in American politics. You can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also reach out to us at listen to themiddle dot com. Our guests are former Alabama Senator Doug Jones and political scientist Julia Azari at Marquette University. And let's go to the phones and Noah who is in Las Vegas, Nevada. And Noah, what do you think about a third party this year?

I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just joining us, we are asking you if it is time for a strong, viable third party option in American politics. You can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also reach out to us at listen to themiddle dot com. Our guests are former Alabama Senator Doug Jones and political scientist Julia Azari at Marquette University. And let's go to the phones and Noah who is in Las Vegas, Nevada. And Noah, what do you think about a third party this year?

Hey, Jeremy, you know, I'm inclined to agree with a lot of the people are saying it's time, because it is. You know, we do need some additional choices. However, our current choices are, you know, according to my beliefs, somehow I see them someone who, if elected, will do the best they can, listen to the constituents and try and find a middle ground. And the other option is someone who were not entirely sure if they will even give up the seat when that second term ends. So when it comes to trying to find a third party option, I'm of the mind let's do it when we are sure democracy is in a safe position.

Hey, Jeremy, you know, I'm inclined to agree with a lot of the people are saying it's time, because it is. You know, we do need some additional choices. However, our current choices are, you know, according to my beliefs, somehow I see them someone who, if elected, will do the best they can, listen to the constituents and try and find a middle ground. And the other option is someone who were not entirely sure if they will even give up the seat when that second term ends. So when it comes to trying to find a third party option, I'm of the mind let's do it when we are sure democracy is in a safe position.

Okay, now, well, thank you very much for that, Colin. I'm going to go next to John who's in Boston. John, what do you think should there be a strong third party this year?

Okay, now, well, thank you very much for that, Colin. I'm going to go next to John who's in Boston. John, what do you think should there be a strong third party this year?

Thank you, Jeremy, thank you. So here's my take on this. I think and I hope either Doug Jones can answer this or the other guests the professor, but I think, professor, pardon me, but what I would say is that it is time to get rid of the electoral college. It's the only way you could have true democracy. This is the only civilized nation that we know that you can win the most popular vote and you still can't be the president. It just doesn't make sense. And if anyone votes just to get back at Joe Biden because of the war, it's it's a win for Donald Trump. It's a vote for Donald Trump. And if you're talking about not getting somebody back into the White House, who if any one of us will charge with one of or even alleged to have done one of the things he's done, we wouldn't be able to run front office. So why it is we want to put someone back in the office in that position? So I think the true democracy is it is time to get rid of the electoral college.

Thank you, Jeremy, thank you. So here's my take on this. I think and I hope either Doug Jones can answer this or the other guests the professor, but I think, professor, pardon me, but what I would say is that it is time to get rid of the electoral college. It's the only way you could have true democracy. This is the only civilized nation that we know that you can win the most popular vote and you still can't be the president. It just doesn't make sense. And if anyone votes just to get back at Joe Biden because of the war, it's it's a win for Donald Trump. It's a vote for Donald Trump. And if you're talking about not getting somebody back into the White House, who if any one of us will charge with one of or even alleged to have done one of the things he's done, we wouldn't be able to run front office. So why it is we want to put someone back in the office in that position? So I think the true democracy is it is time to get rid of the electoral college.

John, Thank you, Professor rozzari.

John, Thank you, Professor rozzari.

I didn't you know I have said before that we are going to do a show about the electoral college. I didn't think it would be this one, but it's definitely coming up a lot.

I didn't you know I have said before that we are going to do a show about the electoral college. I didn't think it would be this one, but it's definitely coming up a lot.

Yeah, I mean it's definitely an obstacle to a third party system, although if you look around the world at other presidential systems that have multiple parties, that has its own instability. Even when you don't have that intermediary step of the electoral college, you're then looking at presidents who may have been elected with thirty percent of the vote, So you're looking at a president who doesn't command an electoral majority, and that can make it challenging for any number of reasons. I think, you know, I think it's an additional impediment. I think there are some strong arguments against the electoral college, but I think there's like there's kind of an overlap between the two, but they're not exactly the same thing. I could go on more with the electoral college, but a lot of the people talk for.

Yeah, I mean it's definitely an obstacle to a third party system, although if you look around the world at other presidential systems that have multiple parties, that has its own instability. Even when you don't have that intermediary step of the electoral college, you're then looking at presidents who may have been elected with thirty percent of the vote, So you're looking at a president who doesn't command an electoral majority, and that can make it challenging for any number of reasons. I think, you know, I think it's an additional impediment. I think there are some strong arguments against the electoral college, but I think there's like there's kind of an overlap between the two, but they're not exactly the same thing. I could go on more with the electoral college, but a lot of the people talk for.

The electoral college.

The electoral college.

Show let's go to a man. Let's go to Jen, who's in Saint Louis. Jen, go ahead, what do you think?

Show let's go to a man. Let's go to Jen, who's in Saint Louis. Jen, go ahead, what do you think?

Hi, guys, thank you. I'd like to agree it's way past time for a third party with a lot of folks. But again, I am going to say, not all votes are created equal. We need to do that first. We need to send the electoral college by the way of late savings time. I mean, if we can add the word riz to the dictionary, we can certainly make changes that are going to be for the planet. But for as far as a third party, everybody's saying like we need a third party, it's not a new thing. Yes, we have needed some length something else right to choose from, but it's not going to be a third party like the ones I've been seen cropping up that are all about sunshine and rainbows on their platform, but no specific plans for doing those things. So that's for starters. And second of all, would please no one who does not want Trump elected vote in a third party fashion or a not blue fashion in battleground states or questionable states, because that's going to turn things. If we want to show support on a nationwide level for a viable third party and a great platform that people can meet in the middle lawn, it is going to have to start locally, and it's definitely not going to be in the battleground states. It could happen in a red state. All the people that won the third party could vote that way. You can write sure in any state you want you as long as you live there and owned property or whatever. I mean, let's show that they're support for one electing third party candidates locally. I mean, what designated survivor.

Hi, guys, thank you. I'd like to agree it's way past time for a third party with a lot of folks. But again, I am going to say, not all votes are created equal. We need to do that first. We need to send the electoral college by the way of late savings time. I mean, if we can add the word riz to the dictionary, we can certainly make changes that are going to be for the planet. But for as far as a third party, everybody's saying like we need a third party, it's not a new thing. Yes, we have needed some length something else right to choose from, but it's not going to be a third party like the ones I've been seen cropping up that are all about sunshine and rainbows on their platform, but no specific plans for doing those things. So that's for starters. And second of all, would please no one who does not want Trump elected vote in a third party fashion or a not blue fashion in battleground states or questionable states, because that's going to turn things. If we want to show support on a nationwide level for a viable third party and a great platform that people can meet in the middle lawn, it is going to have to start locally, and it's definitely not going to be in the battleground states. It could happen in a red state. All the people that won the third party could vote that way. You can write sure in any state you want you as long as you live there and owned property or whatever. I mean, let's show that they're support for one electing third party candidates locally. I mean, what designated survivor.

Jim, thank you, thank you for that call, Senator Jones your thoughts.

Jim, thank you, thank you for that call, Senator Jones your thoughts.

No, she's absolutely correct.

No, she's absolutely correct.

I mean, look, I don't think anybody should disfavor third parties or even independence across the board when it comes to state and local politics. You know, I think that that kind of encourages things. But even if you were to do away with the electoral college, third parties and independent candidates could still be spoilers unless you have a runoff, and I'm not sure we want to run off for that. I want to go back real quick. Jeremy y'all mentioned and talked about Ross Barreau. I think Ross Bureau is a great example where people seem so frustrated with candidates now and folks forget In nineteen ninety two in the summer, in the summer, not March where we are now. Ross Perot actually led in the polling against an incumbent president George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton, who was the Democratic nominee. He had like thirty six thirty seven percent of.

I mean, look, I don't think anybody should disfavor third parties or even independence across the board when it comes to state and local politics. You know, I think that that kind of encourages things. But even if you were to do away with the electoral college, third parties and independent candidates could still be spoilers unless you have a runoff, and I'm not sure we want to run off for that. I want to go back real quick. Jeremy y'all mentioned and talked about Ross Barreau. I think Ross Bureau is a great example where people seem so frustrated with candidates now and folks forget In nineteen ninety two in the summer, in the summer, not March where we are now. Ross Perot actually led in the polling against an incumbent president George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton, who was the Democratic nominee. He had like thirty six thirty seven percent of.

The vote, led all polling.

The vote, led all polling.

He ends up.

He ends up.

Getting less than twenty percent of the vote and no electoral votes. That is his That's just the basic facts of history, and it's why the two party system has evolved from the electoral college. I really believe it was that chicken in the egg that the two parties evolved from the electoral colleges much as anything.

Getting less than twenty percent of the vote and no electoral votes. That is his That's just the basic facts of history, and it's why the two party system has evolved from the electoral college. I really believe it was that chicken in the egg that the two parties evolved from the electoral colleges much as anything.

Well, Professor Azzari, I assume it wasn't just Admiral Stockdale's performance in the debate that led to that.

Well, Professor Azzari, I assume it wasn't just Admiral Stockdale's performance in the debate that led to that.

So like, why do you think.

So like, why do you think.

Paro was doing so well in the polls and then couldn't make it happen.

Paro was doing so well in the polls and then couldn't make it happen.

I think there's two basic reasons for that. One is something that many of our colors have laid out again and again, which is that when the campaign kicks up and push comes to shove, most people who are going to turn out to vote prefer one of the two major party candidates over the other, and that's why they end up casting their ballot that way. The other is that Perot realized he was going to win, and surprise, Perot himself had a preference for one of the two the two major party candidates over the other and briefly dropped out of the race because he was worried he was going to hand it to Bush. So I think campaign effects. Campaigns are real, and I think that's part of it. But I think the other piece of this, if I can say one more thing, is going back to the electoral college. Building a kind of broad base of national support for twenty percent is not going to win you any electoral college votes. Those votes go to regional type candidates like the Senator brought up George Wallace and before that strom Thurman, Southern candidates running on pro segregation tickets, and those were the most recent third party candidates to win electoral college votes.

I think there's two basic reasons for that. One is something that many of our colors have laid out again and again, which is that when the campaign kicks up and push comes to shove, most people who are going to turn out to vote prefer one of the two major party candidates over the other, and that's why they end up casting their ballot that way. The other is that Perot realized he was going to win, and surprise, Perot himself had a preference for one of the two the two major party candidates over the other and briefly dropped out of the race because he was worried he was going to hand it to Bush. So I think campaign effects. Campaigns are real, and I think that's part of it. But I think the other piece of this, if I can say one more thing, is going back to the electoral college. Building a kind of broad base of national support for twenty percent is not going to win you any electoral college votes. Those votes go to regional type candidates like the Senator brought up George Wallace and before that strom Thurman, Southern candidates running on pro segregation tickets, and those were the most recent third party candidates to win electoral college votes.

Let's go to Robert, who's in Burlington, Vermont. Robert, what do you think should there be a strong third party candidate this year?