The Middle with Jeremy HobsonOn this episode of The Middle we're asking you: is democracy really at risk? We're joined by Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton and political commentator Andrew Sullivan. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #Trump #democracy #constitution #inauguration #2025
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on how you can support the Middle at listen to Themiddle dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our house DJ Tolliver, and of course you can watch us live on YouTube, TikTok and Twitch, although Tolliver maybe not TikTok for very long because it's about to get banned.
In the next few days.
Boo.
You know, it was the best of times. It was the demurest of times. Thanks for the memories.
The memeries. Okay, Well, the other thing that is happening in the coming days is that Donald Trump will once again be President of the United States, something that many Americans view as devastating to US democracy, not least because of Trump's unwillingness to accept the election results four years ago in his role in what happened on January sixth, twenty twenty one. So this hour, we want to know if you thinkocracy is really in danger because of Trump's return to the White House or number is eight four four four middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three, And we'll get to your calls in a moment. But first, last week we asked you what should happen now with the US support of Ukraine. Here are some of the calls that came in after the show.
Well, this is Bill Scher from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. This is not just about the Ukraine. It's about Poland, the Baltic Republics, one country after another. Vladimi Poden wants to reconstitute the Soviet Union and going further back in history, the Russian.
Empire, NATO and the US should defend Ukraine from Russia. Ukraine must be defended and allowed to join NATO, no matter the cost.
Hi, I'm Manny Moroda. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. The war is about what it's always been, pride. And I think that if the solution is found where both Putin and Tromp and NATO, if they all signed a solution that can find them pride, then the war can end without further loss of life or territory on either side, if there is simply a maintenance of pride. And I think that is what Trumps and Fotin should be focusing on in their upcoming negotiations.
Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour, is democracy really at risk as Trump retakes the White House? And by the way, I want to hear from you if you think it is at risk or if you think that these concerns are overblown. Tolliver, can you give us the number again please?
Yeah, it's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can.
Write to us that listen to the Middle dot com.
You can also comment on our new live stream on YouTube, TikTok and Twitch.
Let's be at our panel. Political commentator Andrew Sullivan, who writes the weekly Dish Substack and host the Companion podcast, joins us. Andrew, Welcome to the Middle.
Thanks for having me, Jeremy, and.
Clemson University is wan Vernon Burton joins us as well. Vernon, great to have you back on the Middle.
It's great to be back with you, Jeremy.
So before we get to the phones, let me speak to each of you. Andrew, do you think democracy is at risk with Trump coming back into the White House?
Not seriously at risk, I think. I mean, look, we just had a big election, big turnout, and he won. It's very hard to argue that a big democratic victory is somehow the demise of democracy. It's just becomes surreal when you start talking that way. Now, what am I he do in office there? Who knows? And we can't rule out the risk given the things that he said in the past. But I found myself not as worried this time as I was in twenty sixteen, and partly because we have been through this before and we know he didn't do it before, and so the chances of him getting away with it now are pretty small. Also to a very obvious fact. He has a five seat majority in the House of Representatives so far, which may well go down.
Well, it's lower now, right because of some people that have been taken out of the House to go into his administration.
Yes, so it may come down to two or one or two in the end. It's just really hard to be a tyrant with a two seat majority in the House, and you'd be lucky, especially when your party is as divided as his is. I think he's at a high watermark now and we'll see what will take place.
Furner, Britain. What do you think and give us the historic context. Have there been moments in the past. Obviously we think about the Civil War as a moment when everything was at risk, But are there moments that you compare this to and how does this stack up for you?
Yes?
And I think Jeremy that we need to realize the question should be democracy always has been at risk, and people understood that.
You know.
The famous quote by most historians is with Ben Franklin when a woman ask him, you know, well, doctor, what have we got a republic or a monarch? And Franklin replied, a republic if you can keep it. And this has to be put in the context to decline and follow. The Roman Empire by Gibbon was hot off the Press is in the seventeen seventies and his account of how the Roman Republic slipped into tyranny when powerful men it seduced or intimidated his citizens, so they became a stampeding mob, hungry for bread and sert. They were worried about the founders worried about it, Lincoln worried about it, and I think what's interesting is we have not worried about it very much since, and I think we should have because democracy has never been static. I will say that this period parallels more closely the Civil War reconstruction era than in so many ways than ever before. My main concern is belief in the rule of law. We started with the idea of the rural law. People forget at the Declaration, which is not part of the Constitution as all men are created equal, that it was actually written to explain the rule of law, of why a revolution was necessary, so that people could live under the laws and be governed by them. And I guess my greatest concern is will the rule of law be used to undermine the rule of law? And there have been a number of issues. I've written the article, my co author of Justin Fird wrote another article about the Supreme Court used there, But in general we haven't seen law used to go after people as enemies per se. So if that doesn't happen, I will feel pretty comfortable and agree with Andrew, but that would be my main concern there.
On that point, Andrew about the rule of law. We just had the president elect's nominee for Attorney General, Pan Bondy in her hearing wouldn't say that Biden won the twenty twenty election. Are you and was asked about, you know, going after some of Trump's political enemies with the rule of law. Are you worried about that that aspect?
Well, I think that Democrats would have a stronger case if they hadn't persecuted Trump with the political use of the rule of law, specifically Alvin Brad case, which was clearly an attempt to politically manipulate the law to prosecute this guy because the DA didn't want it, didn't like him, and because the DA would get popularity in New York City if he indicted him. He did. He jinned up this fake charge, turning a misdemeanor into a fello. I mean, the whole thing was obviously corrupt. So it's not as if we're starting from position in which one side is sticking to the rule of law. On the other side, isn't they did everything they could to use rule of law to get rid of Trump, and I hope he doesn't do the same thing in return. But a's clear that that's what happened. The three other cases, of course, are more legitimate. But again, when you're using the legal process to circumvent a political process like impeachment, you are, I think, twisting the rule of law in ways that are dangerous, and no one points us out when the Democrats do it, but everyone's extremely upset if Trump would do it.
Let's get a call in before the break. Here, Ryan is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Ryan, Welcome to the middle Go ahead. Do you think democracy is at risk?
I think that Trump's recent election adds to the endangerment of democracy. But I think this question is almost forty years too late. I think we really should have started asking his democracy and danger as we started seeing the industrialization hollow places like Peoria, Illinois, or Flint, Michigan, and you started seeing jobs going overseas and the middle class rapidly shrinking. I think that was a much more intense and immediate threat to the fabrica democracy in this country. And Trump is just adding to a process that's been underway for almost two generations.
Now.
I think we really have to focus on the economic issues when we want to think about is democracy under threat? And you know, Trump is more of a symptom than necessarily a cause.
You're saying just the decline of the middle class is the threat to democracy.
I think the biggest threat to democracy is people's, you know, the ability to pay the bills, keep themselves in their homes and feed themselves. This is sort of this is comparable to Weimar Germany in the nineteen twenties. If people can't feed themselves, if people can't keep themselves in their homes and think about tomorrow is potentially better or stable is today, then they stop thinking about things like democracy because they have to really focus on survival.
Right, Thank you very much for that. Vernon Burton, your thoughts on that.
Well, I think there's a really good point there, and I think it goes back that our generation we have sort of thought of Martin Luther King Junior's the Arc of Morrow, universe's loan, but it bends towards justice, and we forget that Martin Luther King Jr. Was a theologian, and he's talking about the end times even quotes in that same great speech. Of course he's talking about John on pat Mos and the end times as opposed to as he says, very clearly, we have to be doing something. And you know, I take my view as a person of faith the same way that ultimately justice is going to be okay, but we have to do things here. And I do think there's a slight difference from what Andrew was saying on the state case versus the threat of using the federal government to go after enemies. I'm hoping it will not happen, but I do think that is something that will really undermine our belief in the rule of law, and particularly I worry that the Supreme Court when it basically said that the president is above the law, that is, it's not quite that, but the idea it goes against the sort of historical understanding that no one is above the law. And with that kind of of ruling, I think it, with a lot of others, it is undermine a lot of people's faith in.
I gotta, I gotta, I gotta stop you right there, Vernon Burton, because Tolliver, the claims about trumping a threat to democracy go right up to the top.
Yeah, here's President Biden delivering remarks to supporters about a year ago in Pennsylvania.
Democracy is still America's sacred cause. Is the most urgent question of our time, and that's what the twenty twenty four election is all about. The choice is clear. Donald Trump's campaign is about him, not America, not you. Donald Trump's campaign is obsessed with the past, not the future. He's only to sacrifice our democracy. We must be clear.
Democracy is on the ballot well, and the people knew that, Tolliver, and they still voted for Trump. So there we go. And and by the way, we are going to be doing a live new special show in just a few days on Inauguration Night. The podcast will drop the next morning, but we hope you'll tune in for that as well, and we'll be right back with more of the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning. In the Middle is a national call in show focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. We are also available as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts. This hour, we're asking you, is democracy really at risk? Tolliver? What is the number of people to call in?
It's eight four four for Middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com or on social media.
I'm joined by political commentator Andrew Sullivan of The Weekly Dish and Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton. And before we get back to the phones, Andrew, what about the press, uh and the role of the media. We've seen obviously over the last many years, newspapers disappear. We've seen a lot of people get their information from these large tech firms like Meta and x that are not operating like normal news organizations. They're clearly trying to stay in good graces with the incoming administration. Are the media up to the task of safeguarding our democracy to the extent that a free press does that?
Yes, they want to. I mean it's perfectly possible to print the news and to challenge people in government. There's nothing stopping them. We still have a First Amendment. I think some of this and considering what the media has been over the last ten years, if you think about how they have been lecturing us, controlling us, telling us how to live our lives incessantly, a woke agenda imposed from the top with no democratic input whatsoever. The idea that the only threat democracy is coming from the right is just silly. And when you hear Biden say democracy is on the ballot, just think about what he just said. Democracy is on the ballot. Democracy is the ballot. This is not Weimar. We do not have one thousand percent inflation and thirty percent unemployment. We have incredibly low unemployment. We have strong growth, stronger than any other country in the world. The question with democracy is are we going to continue to have elections? Are we continue to be able to choose who represents us? Yes, we will. Now there's another question about liberal democracy, which is that do we have the institutions to make sure that democracy doesn't become the tyranny of the majority. And that's a question that the press has to focus on. But I think we're losing track of what democracy is. I think we're losing perspective on the moment we're in. And for all Trump's insane pronouncements, he is so much and has proven to be. His bark has been so much bigger than his bite. We've already been through this for four years.
Vernon Burton, what about that argument Andrew has said that, Now, a couple of times that Trump was president before we've been through this for four years, there was still an election. I mean, he didn't show up to the inauguration. But but you know, the democracy did continue after the first Trump term.
Yes, and I think Andrew was right to say that gives us a pause to consider. I think that things will continues. I said, I really believe we should have been worried about democracy long before there was was Donald Trump. And I was actually gonna throw this to both you and Andrew because you are the media now. And remember Walter Concrete sort of famous saying if I can paraphrase that the press is not just important to democracy, it is democracy. But one of the big changes that I have seen in my lifetime is this idea. Well, if you think about with Lincoln, people knew at the time that the newspapers were political parties. The parties owned the newspapers, and you know, we probably don't have time. One of my favorite stories is in eighteen fifty he ate the Lincoln Douglas debates, and you have to come down briefly. The Democratic Party said Lincoln was totally ineborated and drunk. Remember he was president of the Temperance Society. He gave the most incoherent and terrible speech, and these followers had to carry him out. He was so unable to walk. Whereas the Whig paper said, it was the greatest, most inspiring speech of all time. And his supporters put him on their shoulders and hurrah, and carried him out in triumph. And the only thing that they agreed on was that he was carried out. Now, but people reading those papers knew those papers were owned by a political party, and I think that's a major difference. Today. We can all point to the other people looking at the one that we don't look at and say, oh, they're looking at a bias one. But I think this is something people need to learn to think critically again. And I'll just do one hobby horse about democracy. You know, we don't teach civics anymore in most schools, and even history is being challenged and not put the emphasis on it. And I'm not trying to. We really need still education, but everybody believes in that, and yet you really need the humanity, civics and history and political science to understand how government works.
Well, it's amazing.
Over the last ten years all the major media establishment moved so far to the left, became essentially mouthpieces to the Biden administration, deliberately concealed the fact that he was incompetent as the president, was unable to even function as president, put every news story through the prison of critical race theory and critical queer theory and critical gender theory. They are the most partisan impressed we've had. NPR is the most biased institution media.
In the country.
This is how you know the middle is different because Andrew is on NPR stations and he's saying that right now.
For all its laws, can you something different. That's why it's successful. The substact world, the places that are actually offering real journalism, unlike the New York Times, unlike NPR, which are essentially become propaganda channels for the left, are doing really well. We're booming. Not that we're right ringers so much, but we haven't adopted a mentality that has been imposed as an actual policy across all these major media groups to defend and advance what they call social justice at the expense of every other value in journalism. They have lied to us again and again. We know it, We've seen it. So I think we're already in a nineteenth century situation, and the more different outlets the better, and people need to they shouldn't be spoon fed their news. They have figured out for themselves. That's to sort of democracy really is. And it is a diversity of views. It's a diversity of newspapers. And then I think we're doing better now than we were five years ago or ten years ago.
I will say, just as a democracy, the panda educated citizenry, yes, of course.
But that doesn't But but you think, but that applies to every sort of media that you might be, the biased media of MPR or the biased media of Fox Media.
I'm just gonna be I'm just gonna say one thing is somebody who's been working in public radio since I was a child, I do believe in public radio. I do think that it should be credible across the political spectrum. And I agree with you Andrew that at many times in recent years it has not lived up to that. But that's what we're trying to do here. So let's get to another call. And Emmett is in the Bay Area in California and is seventeen. Emmett, tell us, what do you think about democracy? And whether it's at risk.
I think it's very interesting at the two people on this call or on the radio are talking about education, because I currently I just took an AP government course. I'm taking an AP economics course, and for my free time when I drive, I listen to The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich on audiobook by William L. Shire, who's considered one of the most profound historians on the rise of Nazism. And so the where I recently left off is during the Weimar era, after the phil beer Hall push, Hitler's turn was to take over through the democratic nature of Germany. And so I think that while I'm not saying Trump is Hitler by any means, I'm saying that it is possible to take over a democracy through democratic nature, and I think that through some of the people that Donald Trump is appointing, they're yes men, and I'm afraid that there won't be that democratic safeguards to stop I'm not saying that right now Donald Trump will end democracy, but it's there for the taking if he's like it, and I think that it's very In his first term, there were the safeguards, there were the people in the war room in there with him to say this is wrong, you are wrong, and they were promptly fired most of the time.
But there were those safeguards.
I'm afraid that those are now going away, and I'm afraid for what that means for democracy. And I think because of that, democracy is at risk. That's all I have to say. Thank you for having me on EMMED.
Thank you so much for that call. You know, there are a lot of people Vernon Burton, I'll go to you. There are a lot of people who do believe that. They say the safeguards aren't there this time. Look at the people that he's putting in this time. Some of his impulses, you know, to sort of have one set of rules for him and one set of rules for everybody else would be anti democratic.
Well, one of the things why I'm so glad that our caller, the seventeen year old student, is taking these ap government classes. We have a system of chicks and balances and this hope it works. One of the things we've seen is the way Congress has been has been stalled in the Supreme Court, has done a lot of things I think it normally would not have. But checks and balances should work.
Let me go to uh, let me go to Joseph, who's calling from Peedley, Missouri. Joseph, what do you think is democracy at risk with Trump retaking the White House?
Well, I mean Trump, I seen him kind of more a symptom. I mean, he's a bit of a goofball. He couldn't really hang with any of the great statesmen of our past, but he does have the unique political talents that our time requires. Are kind of tough mindedness and a lot of all fizzle, no stake, media savvy. I think that the real threat to democracy as we have it right now, like the mass liberal democracy is kind of built into the system. I mean, all of the people who are trying to lead us worried about misinformation are kind of right that a lot of people do get easily swayed. But that begs the question should these people who you know are you know, not even people who are totally you know, too dumb or crazy to vote, but just people like me who are too busy to keep up with everything. You know, we're working eight hours a day trying to keep the family together. So you know, the media power really is what can move the masses to vote for people and choose the direction of the country. I mean, I personally think that if we restricted the franchise to save democracy, I'd be happy to give up my right to vote to labor under a just and wise and competent government rather than having to deal with these short term grenetic bouncing back and forth of.
Democracy. Right there, that's the threat to democracy. The views that the most people are to to vote for their own interests, that's what.
They get.
Some of them died, he trusted, I don't. I really, I think the Viyma stuff is massively overblown. We have two hundred years of constitutional government. The resistance is not supposed to come from within the executive branch. It's to come from the Congress and the courts and the States and the media and everything else. And I was worried, very worried in twenty sixteen. But I've watched this process, and you know, the courts have fought back against both presidents the I don't think the recent court decision on immunity is anything like a sweeping as Villain said it was. And he has a one or two seat majority in the House. Again, I repeat that that's incredibly hard to force policies upon people they don't want, and certainly, ins far as he was elected, he was replacing someone who was in forcing policies the people didn't want. Mass immigration, open borders was something no one wanted, but the Democrats gave us anyway because they thought it was good for us.
Yeah, tolliver Y, Hey, Vernon, let me let's just go. Let's just wait to hear a couple of comments that are coming in here online.
Very spicy.
Yeah so, Carmelia and Atlanta says, the instability of the middle class is a threat to democracy. Is a great point that is actually illustrated quite colorfully.
In Squid Game season two.
A two party democratic season can lead to conflict and at worse, bloodshed. Brianon Demm says the Federalist Society Project twenty twenty five. These are all chipping away at our democracy. Trump is a useful idiot. Literally all the comments are this spicy.
It's crazy. It's a big one today. Uh and then let's go.
Trump has the stantial immunity and keeps pushing for that to apply to non presidential issues.
Trump bragged about.
Being able to shoot someone and get away with it.
Wild wild, wild stuff.
Today you get that comment at listen to the middle dot com Vernon Burton, you were about to say.
Yeah, I just I don't know if and would agree with me not. But my observation of the twenty sixteen four years of President Trump is I don't think that President Trump understands very well how government works, and so in some ways that's a reassurance to me that he would not know how to undermine it very well, even if he intended. I'm not saying he intends to, but I think in support you asked me earlier other peeros and just you know, I wasn't quite born then, but we had the McCarthy era, and of course I grew up with the Jim Crow era of white supremacists. One thing that has bothered me, though, is, except for the Civil War era when people would refer to Abraham Lincoln as an ape or an animal, I think the language even the white supremacist.
Of the.
Era of which I grew up in and the Jim Crow per they never sort of demonized their opponents so much. They were within the political process. And I'm not sure how that's going to play out, but it is something I have some concern with because language is very important. I think, and the only other period I can come up with it I've looked at is before the Civil War and the Civil War reconstruction era.
Jeremy, a democratically elected president could become a dictate right, he would use an emergency, a disaster the Reichstag fire in Germany to seize power, to tell people God to seize his power because order now. Trump was given too unbelievably good opportunities to do that. He was given an epidemic which could have given him the power to use the federal government to control every part of our lives. Turns out he didn't really want to do that. In fact, he was kind of hostile to it. In the summer of twenty twenty when cities were burnings were going on. He could have sent the military, he could have used that as a pretext. He didn't. So we've had two cases where he had it for the taking and look the other way. The other thing is he's not interested in going to war now. Tyrants people who want to destroy democracies love wars. He's not one of them. He's a strange character because he's very anti interventionist. He wants peace, he wants appeasement, in many ways. So that's another reason I don't think he really wants to be a dictator or would have the ability to become one.
Well.
Stand by, because Tolliver, there are those people who say Donald Trump does not post a threaten to democracy, including people who otherwise criticize him quite a bit.
Yeah, his former National security advisor John Bolton is certainly no friend of Trump these days, but he doesn't think Trump is going to bring about the end of democracy.
We've had boiling points in this country. We're almost called the civil war. We're nowhere close to that rhetoric. To the contrary, notwithstanding, I think Trump could cause a lot of damage if he's reelected. I've been saying that for several years now. I do not think he is an existential threat to our democracy, and I think it's in fact harmful to say that. That's the kind of rhetoric I think we could do without.
Yeah, Toliver, John Bolton really doesn't like Trump these days.
I've heard.
Yeah.
Yeah, We'll be right back with more of your calls coming up on the middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're asking you, is democracy really at risk? As Trump retakes the presidency, you can call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also reach out at listen to Themiddle dot com. I'm joined by Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton and political commentator Andrew Sullivan of The Weekly Dish. And the phone lines are full, So let's get to Alex in Atlanta. Alex, Welcome to the Middle.
Go ahead.
So, I think there's a lot of ways you can look at it, and I'll try to take I guess more of a centrist stance, where there are a few presidents throughout the last one hundred years or so even that you can look at that responded by using a lot of their power to take drastic measures. You know. One example you can look at is FDR using the New Deal, packing the courts to get the New Deal passed through in order to sort of fix the Great Depression. And then you can look at like Ronald Reagan who saw a lot of the economic turmoil in the seventies and then use his presidential powers to sort of go crazy with the regulation and pushing forward his conservative agenda. So I think that if Trump uses sort of the most of his power. You're going to get something maybe in between those.
M so the presidential power and of course Vernon Burton, the power of the presidency is bigger now than it has been, isn't it Well?
And I'll be honest what Andrew thinks. I we don't know yet what it is going to mean in terms of this ruling that says the presidence above the law at least as long as as presidential duties thing has going to be interpreted. But if as I read it, uh and and with you know, to to to make it clear, I had an amicus brief in fact, which laid out the history and and the court just sort of ignored all the history and the precedence and everything to to come to that ruling. But we really haven't had it tested yet. We'll have to. We'll have to see. I don't know if Andrew agrees or not with it. I go either way.
I think really good. John Roberts has written that it's not meant to be that sweet, right, and I don't think when you read it closely it reads that way. But imagine Jeremy for example, and that the president today said I'm going to get a whole bunch of legal citizens and put them in camps for four years. I'm going to get re elected four times, three times. Rather, I'm going to have such a big majority in the Congress that I can do anything I want. That was fdr. We had to have a constitutional amendment to brind that happening again. It's just when you actually look at some get some perspective on this, you realize that, in fact, no, we may be moving away from the liberal democracy when we were able to have real conversations that fantably we were able to come together the kind of conversation we're having now, we may be more in a more sort of rambunctious, polarized period. But this constant is a pretty good one. It has lasted really well, and we'll see how it does. It survived one term of Trump. And look, I do think that the attempt to squelch in, to get rid of him, to short circuit democracy through the law or through other measures, backfired. And the American people said very clearly, we don't think he's a threat to our democracy. We're voting for him again. And I in the end trust their judgment. I do I trust their jobs. If he does something crazy and I want you torus. I didn't vote for him either time. I've been one of the sharpest critics of him. I disagree with him on many issues. I think his rhetoric is insanely deranged. I think he should never be present. But I don't think he's going to destroy our democracy. That's all.
I think they could have had an ad with you in it for the Trump campaign saying that I don't like him, I didn't vote for him, but I don't think he's going to the democracy. Let's go to Aaron, who's in Titan, Wyoming. Aaron, welcome to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Yeah, Hi, thank you honor to be on with your two guests. Andrew, I follow you a lot and I admire you a lot. I think you're brilliant. I do think you took a cheap shot to MPR, which I am not brought proud of you for that one. Anyways, Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. One of the things that Vernon mentioned, which is kind of what I think is more fundamental with the risk, is that we don't talk about enough, is you know you have you have in our society, especially now with the diversity we have in every community. I think anyone that's grown up in the United States. I grew up in Virginia, Michigan, California, I'm in Wyoming. Everywhere I've been, I felt there was a level of attention among neighbors. It's just a natural thing that exists when humans try to live among humans. And it was your coach on the team, or the principle of the high school, or the city mayor or the governor, or ideally the president that made civilized nations civilized where we didn't have viture all towards people that we didn't agree with. We could disagree, but we didn't get violent with them. And I think one of the roles of every president that's important to me when I vote is not so much even policies anymore, because they don't control as many policies as you think. There's a big government that does that, and quite frankly, policies change and they ebb and flow over the years. I think what's going to affect my life on my kids' lives more than anything is the attitude in the atmosphere, in the tone of the nation, and if neighbors can live peacefully among neighbors because the role models in our society make us realize they shame us if they shame us if we're not behaving, and they praise us when we do when we do act courteous to our neighbors. And I think the big risk with Trump is he viciously attacks people that he doesn't agree with in a hatred way, not an unfriendly way, in a hatred way. And he called Gavin k Newso new scum.
In the middle in the middle of the fires, and and and yeah.
Right, So it's like, why would you if you start demonizing and start making people hate each other because they don't agree with you politically, they don't agree with you. You know, they're from the blank whole countries, the immigrant you know.
It's right now, we got your point. Let me let me take that to Vernon Burton. That's a very good point. What about that neighborlyiness? Uh and and just sort of the tone of our politics, that is that in itself a threat to having the kind of democracy that we have in the United States.
Well, yes it is. And that's what I said about education is where I was going with the use of a term vermin in this I said look, I look back to see if that kind of language had been used before, and really just the civil Civil War. But I think there's something besides just the neighborlingdess and these sorts of things. Uh, that is is really important. That's another parallel we haven't talked about. And then the parallels that follow in history. What we have now pairallels what was Mark Twain called the gilded Age after Civil War reconstruction, when what you had what extremes in wealth, and that's where we are going now. It seems to me. I hope I'm wrong, and we'll see what kind of what happens with the policies that are passed. But certainly with the first time there was reaction with the People's Party commonly known as the Populist Party that brought about a lot of reforms through the progressive era at that time. And I think there and one other parallel for me is it reminds me of my oncoming age of the sixties and when in fact, young people decided that the generation before hadn't done a very good job and they're going to do something. You begin to have cities and things like that. I really do think young people today are a little tired of looking and saying, look at off these old people who have been president. They have messed up, they have not done a good job. And I don't know which way it's gonna go, but I do think there's a movement or the stirrings of a similar kind of time of the sixties among young people, particular in things like the environment and other issues that be interesting to see what happened and what comes out of it. That ass your question, Jeremy, I went.
On, Yeah, that was very interesting. Let me go to Brett, who's in Totonia, Idaho. Brett, welcome to the middle. Are you worried about democracy?
Well, you couldn't have picked a better person to get to following Jeremy because he's just on the other side of the tetons from me. But worried about democracy? Democracy, that's a big word, probably with a lot of ways that you could look at it. But as far as the ability to vote, do I think Donald Trump's going to ruin our ability to have a fair and honest vote? Probably not. But what I do worry about is, and it was prior to Donald Trump, but is the introduction to the money level that is going on in our democracy and also the lack of what seems to be our society are how we are educated on what is really going on right, And it seems like a lot of people react to the last worst thing that they've heard Brett, and that is go ahead.
I was gonna say that. I want to I want to ask Andrew about the money issue, because that's a really important one. And I also want to say the middle is obviously hot on both sides of the Titans. So thank you for that, Andrew, what about that? That's the second caller that's brought that up. We've got Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, now having an enormous amount of sway. Is that is this oligarchy that Biden warned about in his Goodbye address a threat?
Well, we should notice by partisan the Kamala Harris raised much more money from a lot more holigoqics than Donald Trump is and historically Trump has kind of animated all of those people. They're now coming around him because they want to suck up to him. Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing that these people exercise too much influence. I will happen and I don't and I don't like the access they buy. Although it's not new obviously, it's not like we haven't had this stuff many times before. I will say this though, if you think that Elon Musk and Donald Trump are going to get along for four years, you have no idea. If you think, I mean already, vivac is a is a casualty. Last last week Steve Bannon called Elon Musk an evil man. These these people are not stable characters. They're big egos. I give them a few weeks before they blow up with Donald Trump and leave in disgrace. So I you know, And and money affects all sorts of things. But money at this point and the wealthy are far more on the Democrats side on the Republicans. It's true, I think at this point, except for a few opportunists right now, but in Chen that's the case. The Reroblicans have become more of a working class party. And on questions like immigration, you know, all the money, all the money, people want more immigration, they want cheap foreign labor as much as they can get. So in some ways Trump represents a resistance to that force of money.
This is sort of what I was talking about. Jeremy in the parallel because with the populist movement. He was no populist but one of the worst racial demagogue. But it was a nineteen o eight Tilman Act against what was then the large corporations or railroads. It said you had to keep big money and particularly dark money out of politics. That, when you know twenty ten was Citizens United, I think was one of the great mistakes of the Supreme Court and one of the most dangerous things, much more so even than gutting of the Voting Rights Act and things like that. Ultimately for democracy, at least that's that's the way I read it. But that's why I think there's gonna be another pendulum swing because of this. It's exactly what happened after the Civil War in that other Gilded age. You then had this age of reform, and I think that's part of what young people are going to be upset about. But I'm guessing, totally guess. And you know, historians are not profits. We make a lot more money Andrew's a profit, and we'll hear from him.
Well.
So, because we have an all male panel today, I am glad that our next caller, Kim, is calling from East Texas to have a little gender diversity. Kim, Welcome to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts. What do you think democracy is at risk?
Hi, Yes, absolutely I do. And I think the danger this time is from Project twenty twenty five replacing people with experience in government with siccophants and loyalty to Trump. And I think that's what saved us, if you will, the first time around, and those rills are in the process coming down, And yeah, I think we're in a lot of danger.
Yes, I don't think it's a threat to democracy for a president to have his own staff actually follow what he wants. I think it's a threat to democracy to have a class of bureaucrats who are actually so left oriented and so in defense of the previous administration that they block and stymy the initiatives of the incoming administration. That is a danger to democracy. Democracy isn't endangered because your particular policy views are not in favor. It's endangered when people attempt to prevent democratic processes happening, and the bureaucracy and the administrative state does do that. It really does. He doesn't like certain things, it resists. Look at Trump's ability to even change immigration. It's been an incredibly hard lift. Now, I don't agree with getting rid of everyone and putting every voting into political points, but I do think they come to the point now, which when the civil service is structurally opposed to you politically, you have a right to get people who want to do what you want.
Let me squeeze one more call in and Philip, who is calling from Pine Ridge, Colorado. Philip, welcome to the middle your thoughts.
You posed a very interesting question tonight, and I'm glad you got to me. And I've got to say I voted for Trump, first of all, but I would absolutely say that he is a danger to democracy. I've got to tell you why people mistake. People have been told for decades that the US is a democracy, and it's not. It was set up as a constitutional republic. And Donald Trump has said many times in the past few years that he would restore the republic. And what people miss is that's why he's so loved is because for the few of us that realize it's a constitutional republic, he's seen as a person who's going to restore the government to what it's supposed to have been.
Vernon Burton, that's a great, great one. To go to you on the US as a constitutional republic, and we heard there from a Trump voter, he says, this is what we wanted.
Well, it is a republic and that's how it works. But again I go back to the rule of law. And my concern has been the sort of I think this is the first time when you get down to it to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has been totally out of touch with where most Americans are on issues and things, particularly certain issues as of late, and that worries me about a republic. But a republic is there to make democracy work. I think we're we're I think we're hanging up more on rhetoric than reality. Of course, it's a republic of when you have something that lord. But we've to go back to the beginning. You know, the founding fathers did not see political parties. They didn't want them, they didn't see them coming. Uh maybe that was their fault. They should have. But I think that's made a huge different political parties, and the sort of lack of Congress to get things done has left a vacuum that has allowed a shift in this balance of powers. I fear again, I want to be careful and here is certainly much more of a profit than I am.
But you're gonna but you're gonna have the last word here brand because because we've run out of time. So let me say let me say thank you to let me say thank you to both of you, Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton and political commentator Andrew Sullivan. You can subscribe to his substack in podcast, The Weekly Dish. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us.
You're so welcome.
Thank you.
I learned a lot and Andrew, thank you.
Yeah, we've got We've got two new shows in the next week. We're live with a special on many stations on Inauguration Night, taking your calls, and then next week I will be in Evansville, Indiana, with a focus on Trump's deportation program, which should be underway as always.
You can call in at eight four four four Middle that's eight four four four six four three three five three, or you can.
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The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmas, Dawes, John Barth, An Akadeshler, and Brandon Condritz. Our technical director is Jason Croft. Thanks to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the more than four hundred and twenty public radio stations making it possible for people across the country to listen to The Middle, I'm Jeremy Hobson, and I'll talk to you next week.
