Welcome to the middle, Jeremy Hobson. Is bipartisanship still possible? Our number is eight four four four middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. Tolliver is here. Hih Tolliver.

Welcome to the middle, Jeremy Hobson. Is bipartisanship still possible? Our number is eight four four four middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. Tolliver is here. Hih Tolliver.

Hey, Jeremy, Hey, listen man. I've always been bipartisan. I like the Cubs in the White Sox, the Stones and the Beatles sleeping and napping, you know.

Hey, Jeremy, Hey, listen man. I've always been bipartisan. I like the Cubs in the White Sox, the Stones and the Beatles sleeping and napping, you know.

Having grown up in Champagne Orbanna. By the way, it was very difficult to figure out whether you should be a Cubs fan or a Cardinals fan. The cities are all anyway, that's pretty tough. You're bipartisan. Well, I've been paying a lot of attention to the news this week, and sometimes it looks like bipartisanship is definitely not possible anymore. Like when former President Trump referred to his political opponents as vermin, echoing Adolf Hitler, Or when two members of Congress, Jared Moskowitz, a Democrat and James Comer, a Republican, got into it in a committee hearing.

Having grown up in Champagne Orbanna. By the way, it was very difficult to figure out whether you should be a Cubs fan or a Cardinals fan. The cities are all anyway, that's pretty tough. You're bipartisan. Well, I've been paying a lot of attention to the news this week, and sometimes it looks like bipartisanship is definitely not possible anymore. Like when former President Trump referred to his political opponents as vermin, echoing Adolf Hitler, Or when two members of Congress, Jared Moskowitz, a Democrat and James Comer, a Republican, got into it in a committee hearing.

Wing stopped the clock.

Wing stopped the clock.

You all continue, Do you look like a smurf here just going around and all this stuff?

You all continue, Do you look like a smurf here just going around and all this stuff?

Now, look, mister Chairman, you have hold on if we're we're not on time.

Now, look, mister Chairman, you have hold on if we're we're not on time.

We you this information you have done on Hill.

We you this information you have done on Hill.

You had, the press did something, you you're doing stuff.

You had, the press did something, you you're doing stuff.

It gets to a point, I think at some point. But but the thing is Tolliver. When it came down to it, the House of Representatives and the Senate ended up passing a bill this week to keep the government open, with members of both parties on board. In the end, almost all Democrats voted for it, Republicans were split. So again our question, is bipartisanship still possible? Our number eight four four four six four three three five three and before we meet our panel guest Tolliver. Last week we asked what role abortion could play and how people vote in the next election. So many voicemails, as always, take a listen.

It gets to a point, I think at some point. But but the thing is Tolliver. When it came down to it, the House of Representatives and the Senate ended up passing a bill this week to keep the government open, with members of both parties on board. In the end, almost all Democrats voted for it, Republicans were split. So again our question, is bipartisanship still possible? Our number eight four four four six four three three five three and before we meet our panel guest Tolliver. Last week we asked what role abortion could play and how people vote in the next election. So many voicemails, as always, take a listen.

My name is Heather. I'm calling from Please go to Ohio.

My name is Heather. I'm calling from Please go to Ohio.

My name is Alan Crouch. I'm calling from Saint John's, Florida.

My name is Alan Crouch. I'm calling from Saint John's, Florida.

My name is William.

My name is William.

I'm calling from Saint Louis.

I'm calling from Saint Louis.

This is not a statement from Gilbert arizonas my vote would have been Democrat. But since in this election we're voting over abortion, yes or note, I would be forced to vote for Republicans.

This is not a statement from Gilbert arizonas my vote would have been Democrat. But since in this election we're voting over abortion, yes or note, I would be forced to vote for Republicans.

I certainly voted to enshrine the right to abortion in Ohio. By the next morning, our Republican legislature was doing all they could to figure out ways to circumvent that. I will do everything that I can to make sure that we vote every last one of them out.

I certainly voted to enshrine the right to abortion in Ohio. By the next morning, our Republican legislature was doing all they could to figure out ways to circumvent that. I will do everything that I can to make sure that we vote every last one of them out.

It is going to affect the way I vote, and that I'm expecting politicians to represent those of us who do are about life, and I'm hoping that there are those who at the very least are more toward the middle to span an abortion period.

It is going to affect the way I vote, and that I'm expecting politicians to represent those of us who do are about life, and I'm hoping that there are those who at the very least are more toward the middle to span an abortion period.

That's wrong and if on God leave the decision for the people, that's all we.

That's wrong and if on God leave the decision for the people, that's all we.

Need to do.

Need to do.

So many great calls. If you were listening live last week, you heard there were some phone problems. That's because so many of you were calling, you were overloaded the system.

So many great calls. If you were listening live last week, you heard there were some phone problems. That's because so many of you were calling, you were overloaded the system.

Absolutely not a bad problem to have.

Absolutely not a bad problem to have.

I'm serious about that. Apparently the capacity has been boosted. So fingers crossed this hour as we ask, is bipartisanship still possible? Eight four four four six four three three five three is our number. Let's meet our panel guests. Mitch Daniels, a Republican, served two terms as governor of Indiana before he went on to lead Purdue University as its president. He left that job last year and is now a senior advisor to the Liberty Fund. He's with us from Atlanta, Georgia. Governor, welcome to the middle.

I'm serious about that. Apparently the capacity has been boosted. So fingers crossed this hour as we ask, is bipartisanship still possible? Eight four four four six four three three five three is our number. Let's meet our panel guests. Mitch Daniels, a Republican, served two terms as governor of Indiana before he went on to lead Purdue University as its president. He left that job last year and is now a senior advisor to the Liberty Fund. He's with us from Atlanta, Georgia. Governor, welcome to the middle.

I appreciate being included.

I appreciate being included.

Well.

Well.

And Democratic Congressman Don Davis of North Carolina is with us as well. He's in his first term and is a member of the Problem Solvers Caucus. He voted to avert the shutdown this week. He joins us from Greenville, North Carolina. Congressman, welcome to you.

And Democratic Congressman Don Davis of North Carolina is with us as well. He's in his first term and is a member of the Problem Solvers Caucus. He voted to avert the shutdown this week. He joins us from Greenville, North Carolina. Congressman, welcome to you.

Hey, jeremy, thank you for having us today, and look forward to join you and the governor for a great discussion tonight from the middle.

Hey, jeremy, thank you for having us today, and look forward to join you and the governor for a great discussion tonight from the middle.

Well, and let me ask you, first, Congressman, the news that actually matters to Americans this week from Washington is that the government is not shutting down. But the headlines were about sucker punches and swearing on Capitol Hill. Did this week feel different to you there or business as usual?

Well, and let me ask you, first, Congressman, the news that actually matters to Americans this week from Washington is that the government is not shutting down. But the headlines were about sucker punches and swearing on Capitol Hill. Did this week feel different to you there or business as usual?

It was definitely a different week. Perhaps we've been in Washington, d C. Too long. With a sucker punch that took place, we had a ledge challenged to fight over in the Senate, and yes, as we highlighted the wonder world of the Smurt's return and bargarellably return here. I don't know what was in the water in Washington, d C. But I can tell you I'm definitely glad to be in eastern North Carolina.

It was definitely a different week. Perhaps we've been in Washington, d C. Too long. With a sucker punch that took place, we had a ledge challenged to fight over in the Senate, and yes, as we highlighted the wonder world of the Smurt's return and bargarellably return here. I don't know what was in the water in Washington, d C. But I can tell you I'm definitely glad to be in eastern North Carolina.

Mitch Daniels, you had divided government when you were governor, and you've said that if you're interested in results as a politician, you have to work across the aisle, especially if you want to get big things done. So what do you make of the current state of bipartisanship at the federal level.

Mitch Daniels, you had divided government when you were governor, and you've said that if you're interested in results as a politician, you have to work across the aisle, especially if you want to get big things done. So what do you make of the current state of bipartisanship at the federal level.

You described my point of view very accurately. I think if you're interested in results, in most cases maybe all you really have to be open to the idea of working with people who see.

You described my point of view very accurately. I think if you're interested in results, in most cases maybe all you really have to be open to the idea of working with people who see.

Things a little differently than you do.

Things a little differently than you do.

If you're only interested in scoring points, there's never any There's always the opportunity to do that. But whether we had as half our time in office was divided government, half we had a supportive legislature, But in both cases I felt.

If you're only interested in scoring points, there's never any There's always the opportunity to do that. But whether we had as half our time in office was divided government, half we had a supportive legislature, But in both cases I felt.

It was really really important wherever.

It was really really important wherever.

Possible to them try to find common ground. Bipartisanship is the only way to achieve things when polities are divided, and it's the way to achieve enduring change even if one party has temporary control.

Possible to them try to find common ground. Bipartisanship is the only way to achieve things when polities are divided, and it's the way to achieve enduring change even if one party has temporary control.

So why do you think that it's so hard to find these.

So why do you think that it's so hard to find these.

Days each party?

Days each party?

I think when the party's lost control their nominating process, they drifted it. It seems to me they drifted into the current situation in which nominations are increasingly controlled by their fringes and their edges and leaving a lot of people.

I think when the party's lost control their nominating process, they drifted it. It seems to me they drifted into the current situation in which nominations are increasingly controlled by their fringes and their edges and leaving a lot of people.

In the middle who bill a have limited or no choices.

In the middle who bill a have limited or no choices.

I think folks who are selected in that way and looking over their shoulder to make sure they keep their offices when they're controlled by an avid or a passionate edge, are much less likely. I'm afraid to think about results or to look for a commonality with people of different viewpoints.

I think folks who are selected in that way and looking over their shoulder to make sure they keep their offices when they're controlled by an avid or a passionate edge, are much less likely. I'm afraid to think about results or to look for a commonality with people of different viewpoints.

Let's go to the phones. Jay is with us from Overland Park, Kansas. Jay, go ahead, Welcome to the middle.

Let's go to the phones. Jay is with us from Overland Park, Kansas. Jay, go ahead, Welcome to the middle.

Hi there.

Hi there.

I was just explaining to the person on the phone that I believe I work for a political nonprofit that seeks to be nonpartisan and kind of reach across the aisle, and as I work in politics, I share a lot of different opinions, and I find that there are are still people committed to being in the middle, that there are people who want to find common ground with people from different political parties. But I also hear a majority of people saying, well, I just can't work with people who don't see eye to eye with me on issues.

I was just explaining to the person on the phone that I believe I work for a political nonprofit that seeks to be nonpartisan and kind of reach across the aisle, and as I work in politics, I share a lot of different opinions, and I find that there are are still people committed to being in the middle, that there are people who want to find common ground with people from different political parties. But I also hear a majority of people saying, well, I just can't work with people who don't see eye to eye with me on issues.

So what do you say to those people? What do you say to those people?

So what do you say to those people? What do you say to those people?

I say to those people that I agree with them. You know, I want to be committed to issues rather than party, and I think that I am willing to work with anyone who agrees with me on those issues. So I think that bipartisanship is possible. It's just more of a question of are people able to get past a party label and are people able to actually work together, especially if they're not agreeing on certain issues.

I say to those people that I agree with them. You know, I want to be committed to issues rather than party, and I think that I am willing to work with anyone who agrees with me on those issues. So I think that bipartisanship is possible. It's just more of a question of are people able to get past a party label and are people able to actually work together, especially if they're not agreeing on certain issues.

Jay, thanks for that call, Congressman. I'm sure that you in a purple state like North Carolina hear from a lot of people who you know, feel that way or don't want to talk to somebody from the party that that isn't theirs and that they disagree with politically.

Jay, thanks for that call, Congressman. I'm sure that you in a purple state like North Carolina hear from a lot of people who you know, feel that way or don't want to talk to somebody from the party that that isn't theirs and that they disagree with politically.

Oh.

Oh.

Absolutely, I believe it's so important for us to bring civility back to this process. This is about humanity and the relative it is. I remember my grandmother always reminded me growing up looking for the best and that best in everybody. Somehow we forget that in this process. But I'm not giving up. I look, you know, even over the courses this week, with everything taking place, we were still able to get at the end of the day to a stop gap to continue to keep the government open for the American people. And this is about putting the people over politics.

Absolutely, I believe it's so important for us to bring civility back to this process. This is about humanity and the relative it is. I remember my grandmother always reminded me growing up looking for the best and that best in everybody. Somehow we forget that in this process. But I'm not giving up. I look, you know, even over the courses this week, with everything taking place, we were still able to get at the end of the day to a stop gap to continue to keep the government open for the American people. And this is about putting the people over politics.

Let's go to Bill in Central Illinois. Bill, welcome to the middle. Go ahead, Hi, Bill, Hi.

Let's go to Bill in Central Illinois. Bill, welcome to the middle. Go ahead, Hi, Bill, Hi.

There just half a second when let me turn that radio off and clip and put it on regular phone.

There just half a second when let me turn that radio off and clip and put it on regular phone.

Okay, and go ahead.

Okay, and go ahead.

Can you hear me better?

Can you hear me better?

Can you hear you? Yes? Please go forward, Thank you.

Can you hear you? Yes? Please go forward, Thank you.

I was just making the point that I thought the Overton window had shifted so far to the right with the advent of Donald Trump and other politicians that I'm not sure by partisanship is possible anymore. The things that they are now espousing and saying, you know, camps to put all the illegals in and to port eleven million people, that your political opponents are vermin that we're going to exact retribution on her political enemies. These things are such anathema to anyone who is even just mildly center left, and how can you expect cooperation?

I was just making the point that I thought the Overton window had shifted so far to the right with the advent of Donald Trump and other politicians that I'm not sure by partisanship is possible anymore. The things that they are now espousing and saying, you know, camps to put all the illegals in and to port eleven million people, that your political opponents are vermin that we're going to exact retribution on her political enemies. These things are such anathema to anyone who is even just mildly center left, and how can you expect cooperation?

Uh, let let me let me take that to the governor of Mitch Daniels. You know, this is I'm sure something we're going to hear tonight, which is that Donald Trump has changed the game here.

Uh, let let me let me take that to the governor of Mitch Daniels. You know, this is I'm sure something we're going to hear tonight, which is that Donald Trump has changed the game here.

Well, the game has changed, and he's been one actor in it.

Well, the game has changed, and he's been one actor in it.

But I think it's not accurate to assign him all the blame for where we are. Both both sides have their absolutist points of view. In fact, I think what gave rise to the Trump phenomenon more than anything was the naked contempt that was shown by too many people who would describe themselves as left or center left for the values and the lifestyles and of those who disagreed. You know, back to Jay's point, You know, you have to hope that people will come to accept the notion that tolerance of another viewpoint does not connote endorsement, and that compromise does not require a forfeiture of principle. I'm back to the term results again. But if your real interest is the public good of the country and trying to move it in whatever direction you believe important, and I have respect for people who hold their view strongly, whichever set of us those are. But if your real goal is to advance those then you're very unlikely to make much progress by, you know, hurling insults and disparagement at the other side. And so I hope that at some point, maybe we need things to get desperate enough, as they were in the case of this near shutdown, that people face up to that more often.

But I think it's not accurate to assign him all the blame for where we are. Both both sides have their absolutist points of view. In fact, I think what gave rise to the Trump phenomenon more than anything was the naked contempt that was shown by too many people who would describe themselves as left or center left for the values and the lifestyles and of those who disagreed. You know, back to Jay's point, You know, you have to hope that people will come to accept the notion that tolerance of another viewpoint does not connote endorsement, and that compromise does not require a forfeiture of principle. I'm back to the term results again. But if your real interest is the public good of the country and trying to move it in whatever direction you believe important, and I have respect for people who hold their view strongly, whichever set of us those are. But if your real goal is to advance those then you're very unlikely to make much progress by, you know, hurling insults and disparagement at the other side. And so I hope that at some point, maybe we need things to get desperate enough, as they were in the case of this near shutdown, that people face up to that more often.

You know, Tlliver. One of the most famous cross party relationships was the one that existed between former President Ronald Reagan and the House Speaker during his presidency, Tip O'Neil.

You know, Tlliver. One of the most famous cross party relationships was the one that existed between former President Ronald Reagan and the House Speaker during his presidency, Tip O'Neil.

Yeah, they were famously closed despite their political differences. Here's was Reagan speaking with William F. Buckley nineteen ninety about O'Neill.

Yeah, they were famously closed despite their political differences. Here's was Reagan speaking with William F. Buckley nineteen ninety about O'Neill.

We got along and Nancy and I had Tipp and his wife over for dinner. And then one day I picked up the paper and read where he had made a statement about me that was pretty harsh.

We got along and Nancy and I had Tipp and his wife over for dinner. And then one day I picked up the paper and read where he had made a statement about me that was pretty harsh.

And I called him and I said.

And I called him and I said.

Tip, I thought we had a relationship here where we could do business together and all, and no I read in the paper that you said, and he interrupted me and said, well, old buddy, that's just politics, he said, after six o'clock, we're buddies, we're friends.

Tip, I thought we had a relationship here where we could do business together and all, and no I read in the paper that you said, and he interrupted me and said, well, old buddy, that's just politics, he said, after six o'clock, we're buddies, we're friends.

Well to all of our buddies and friends. More of the Middle coming right up after this break.

Well to all of our buddies and friends. More of the Middle coming right up after this break.

This is the Middle on Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle as a national call in show, we're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. My guests are Mitch Daniels, a Republican who was a two term governor of Indiana and after that president of Purdue University, and Democratic Congressman Don Davis of North Carolina. We're asking you, is bipartisanship still possible? Perhaps political leaders in your area have found a way to work together. We want to hear from you. Tolliver, what is that number again?

This is the Middle on Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle as a national call in show, we're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in the middle. My guests are Mitch Daniels, a Republican who was a two term governor of Indiana and after that president of Purdue University, and Democratic Congressman Don Davis of North Carolina. We're asking you, is bipartisanship still possible? Perhaps political leaders in your area have found a way to work together. We want to hear from you. Tolliver, what is that number again?

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three, Go ahead and give us a call.

It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three, Go ahead and give us a call.

Before we go back to the phones. I want to ask our guests if this partisan ranker is opening up a lane for a third party presidential candidate who could actually get into double digits percentage wise and shake up the election next year. Mitch Daniels, what do you think.

Before we go back to the phones. I want to ask our guests if this partisan ranker is opening up a lane for a third party presidential candidate who could actually get into double digits percentage wise and shake up the election next year. Mitch Daniels, what do you think.

I don't think it's impossible.

I don't think it's impossible.

I know folks are dismissed of some of this idea, but they're looking in the rear view mirror only, and we're to me an astorical moment with unprecedented percentages of people expressing total discomfort with both of the standing parties, which the parties used to compete for the middle and that's why third parties generally fizzled out. These days, when they are captive to their edges, it leaves a huge opening. Plus, we've never seen a race between two octagenarians before, so you've got to unique historic situation.

I know folks are dismissed of some of this idea, but they're looking in the rear view mirror only, and we're to me an astorical moment with unprecedented percentages of people expressing total discomfort with both of the standing parties, which the parties used to compete for the middle and that's why third parties generally fizzled out. These days, when they are captive to their edges, it leaves a huge opening. Plus, we've never seen a race between two octagenarians before, so you've got to unique historic situation.

I'm not predicting anything.

I'm not predicting anything.

The odds are probably still long, but I don't accept that somehow it's out of the question.

The odds are probably still long, but I don't accept that somehow it's out of the question.

Congressman, is this something that you and your Democratic colleagues are worried about because it would make it easier, for example, for Donald Trump to win the election without independent voters if it's a three way race.

Congressman, is this something that you and your Democratic colleagues are worried about because it would make it easier, for example, for Donald Trump to win the election without independent voters if it's a three way race.

I believe what's most important it's looking at results, looking at what's been accomplished for the American people. When I think about the infrastructure Plan, I think about so much that's been accomplished right here. For instance, in eastern North Carolina, we see real work on the ground to help get broadband out across rural communities. That makes a huge difference. So I believe at the end of the day, the American people will decide what has taken place. They can see through a lot of you know, these things and sift through who's who and what's what, and who's actually delivered for them, and I believe the people will show up, they'll cast those votes for who will deliver or they feel that have delivered for them. And we know the challenges before the American people right now. Inflation is still real, many people struggling to put food on the table. So you know, these are real issues. These are issues that I hear every day from constituents. And I also hear interestingly increasingly more people saying they want me to go to DC and work to get along. And that's what I've tried to do. And I just want to be clear here when we talk about the middle and what's happening, is it possible here's a reality which is not reported in the media right now on the most contentious votes. Look at my voting record fifty three percent actually with Republicans on fifty five contentious bills three hundred and two bills that haveve co sponsored out of three hundred and eighty six, seventy eight percent or bipartisan have worked. For instance, with Zach Nunn, we've worked on nine pieces of legislation together, and that record expands. And these are issues and topics and policy issues that are not often picked up in the media. So we just have to be honest and real about that as well. There are many who are talking, having meaningful conversations and are not looking to just go drop bombs. And the unfortunate reality and I just want to pick in touch on this point is somehow we've gotten to the point that we are rewarding those who show up to drop bombs and run, you know, to the media and have the loudest.

I believe what's most important it's looking at results, looking at what's been accomplished for the American people. When I think about the infrastructure Plan, I think about so much that's been accomplished right here. For instance, in eastern North Carolina, we see real work on the ground to help get broadband out across rural communities. That makes a huge difference. So I believe at the end of the day, the American people will decide what has taken place. They can see through a lot of you know, these things and sift through who's who and what's what, and who's actually delivered for them, and I believe the people will show up, they'll cast those votes for who will deliver or they feel that have delivered for them. And we know the challenges before the American people right now. Inflation is still real, many people struggling to put food on the table. So you know, these are real issues. These are issues that I hear every day from constituents. And I also hear interestingly increasingly more people saying they want me to go to DC and work to get along. And that's what I've tried to do. And I just want to be clear here when we talk about the middle and what's happening, is it possible here's a reality which is not reported in the media right now on the most contentious votes. Look at my voting record fifty three percent actually with Republicans on fifty five contentious bills three hundred and two bills that haveve co sponsored out of three hundred and eighty six, seventy eight percent or bipartisan have worked. For instance, with Zach Nunn, we've worked on nine pieces of legislation together, and that record expands. And these are issues and topics and policy issues that are not often picked up in the media. So we just have to be honest and real about that as well. There are many who are talking, having meaningful conversations and are not looking to just go drop bombs. And the unfortunate reality and I just want to pick in touch on this point is somehow we've gotten to the point that we are rewarding those who show up to drop bombs and run, you know, to the media and have the loudest.

Voices, right, I mean, and it's true, it's true what you're saying that as you know, as you watch as you watch the news these days, that often the loudest voices are the ones that get the clips over and over and over and over again. Let's get to our phones and hear from some of our callers and listeners that are calling in Robert in North Carolina is with us. Hi, Robert, Welcome to the middle.

Voices, right, I mean, and it's true, it's true what you're saying that as you know, as you watch as you watch the news these days, that often the loudest voices are the ones that get the clips over and over and over and over again. Let's get to our phones and hear from some of our callers and listeners that are calling in Robert in North Carolina is with us. Hi, Robert, Welcome to the middle.

Hey, hey, Dan.

Hey, hey, Dan.

My answer to the question is, I do kind of think biparty by partisnership is dead, but it can be good in my opinion, if it leads to something else besides our two party system. To me, that would be a good thing. And when y'all y'all mentioned earlier there's talk of a mainstream, maybe more centrist third party, you know, called No Labels. If we just had another option besides you know, team A fighting team B and it's just mudslinging. I think the media kind of feeds the whole negative cycle, and so I just think things are broken if we had more valuable options. You know, we have Dean Phillips is actually going against Joe Biden and Mark Kennedy No Labels, right right?

My answer to the question is, I do kind of think biparty by partisnership is dead, but it can be good in my opinion, if it leads to something else besides our two party system. To me, that would be a good thing. And when y'all y'all mentioned earlier there's talk of a mainstream, maybe more centrist third party, you know, called No Labels. If we just had another option besides you know, team A fighting team B and it's just mudslinging. I think the media kind of feeds the whole negative cycle, and so I just think things are broken if we had more valuable options. You know, we have Dean Phillips is actually going against Joe Biden and Mark Kennedy No Labels, right right?

Are you going to Are you going to vote for a third party candidate next year in twenty twenty four?

Are you going to Are you going to vote for a third party candidate next year in twenty twenty four?

Yeah, I mean I'm going to wait to see who they run. You know, I know they're supposed to run a split ticket Democrat and Republican. But I've been like salivating over the idea of having a third choice for decade at least fifteen years. And that last thing. Our current system is definitely broken, like the gentleman said earlier, mainly because of the primaries that we have, so the far fringes of the parties end up running against against each other. But right now they say two thirds of the country does not want to see Trump versus Biden, and the fact that it's going to be Trump versus Biden just shows you what a broken system that we have.

Yeah, I mean I'm going to wait to see who they run. You know, I know they're supposed to run a split ticket Democrat and Republican. But I've been like salivating over the idea of having a third choice for decade at least fifteen years. And that last thing. Our current system is definitely broken, like the gentleman said earlier, mainly because of the primaries that we have, so the far fringes of the parties end up running against against each other. But right now they say two thirds of the country does not want to see Trump versus Biden, and the fact that it's going to be Trump versus Biden just shows you what a broken system that we have.

You know, Robert, thank you for that call. Let's get to another call. Carly is with us from Salt Lake City, Utah. Hi. Carly, welcome to the middle.

You know, Robert, thank you for that call. Let's get to another call. Carly is with us from Salt Lake City, Utah. Hi. Carly, welcome to the middle.

Hi, go ahead.

Hi, go ahead.

Do you think bipartisanship is still possible?

Do you think bipartisanship is still possible?

Well, I think one of the concerning that the caller brought up previously when they were speaking about just how far right with Donald Trump politics have swung, and how it's difficult to find that middle ground because it's weird the pendulum has swung so far. I think one of the things I'm really concerned about, and I feel like the governor avaded the question a little bit of that caller was that when we talk about the people on the far right extremes, they tend to attack the individuals in politics as opposed to creating policy and idea that represents. And one of my big concerns is that if we are just attacking the people involved in politics and we never actually get to the policy and ideas because we're tearing them down, then we're never going to get to the medal. And I feel like the at least on the left side, we tend to hear more conversation about the policies and ideas of the right and finding issues with them.

Well, I think one of the concerning that the caller brought up previously when they were speaking about just how far right with Donald Trump politics have swung, and how it's difficult to find that middle ground because it's weird the pendulum has swung so far. I think one of the things I'm really concerned about, and I feel like the governor avaded the question a little bit of that caller was that when we talk about the people on the far right extremes, they tend to attack the individuals in politics as opposed to creating policy and idea that represents. And one of my big concerns is that if we are just attacking the people involved in politics and we never actually get to the policy and ideas because we're tearing them down, then we're never going to get to the medal. And I feel like the at least on the left side, we tend to hear more conversation about the policies and ideas of the right and finding issues with them.

Carly, thank you for that call, Governor. She invoked your name, so I'm going to go back to you on this one. What about the point that she makes though about Republicans, She says, going after the character of their political opponents as opposed to the policies.

Carly, thank you for that call, Governor. She invoked your name, so I'm going to go back to you on this one. What about the point that she makes though about Republicans, She says, going after the character of their political opponents as opposed to the policies.

Well, first, let me point out that I haven't had a thing to do with partisan politics for eleven years. Out of respect for the public institution at which I worked. I stopped, as a matter of fact, was six months ago in the previous job. So to an extent, I'm, you know, like I've been a spectator to this, but I understand what the caller's saying. But believe me, and I looking from a third party's perspective. There's plenty of horrible invective, insulting, and again contemptuous outlook that's been directed at people who of more traditional outlook, and I think Trump took it as became the expression of their frustration and their to a large extent, their sense of that they had been looked down on by not just the people on the leftist political persuasion, but the national media and the higher institutions of this country. So, you know, I'm a little more charitable then than she might be about the way they have reacted. So I'm not excusing anything that has happened that Trump has said or done, but it's it's too simplistic in my judgment to assert that somehow he's the cause of all our current difficulty.

Well, first, let me point out that I haven't had a thing to do with partisan politics for eleven years. Out of respect for the public institution at which I worked. I stopped, as a matter of fact, was six months ago in the previous job. So to an extent, I'm, you know, like I've been a spectator to this, but I understand what the caller's saying. But believe me, and I looking from a third party's perspective. There's plenty of horrible invective, insulting, and again contemptuous outlook that's been directed at people who of more traditional outlook, and I think Trump took it as became the expression of their frustration and their to a large extent, their sense of that they had been looked down on by not just the people on the leftist political persuasion, but the national media and the higher institutions of this country. So, you know, I'm a little more charitable then than she might be about the way they have reacted. So I'm not excusing anything that has happened that Trump has said or done, but it's it's too simplistic in my judgment to assert that somehow he's the cause of all our current difficulty.

Let's go to John in Illinois. John, if you can turn your radio down and tell us what you think is by partisanship still possible.

Let's go to John in Illinois. John, if you can turn your radio down and tell us what you think is by partisanship still possible.

Particiansanship is very difficult and maybe maybe almost impossible because the House of Representatives has been polarized because by because the majority of the People's members the House of Representatives have safe seats and therefore unwilling to engage in bipartisan solutions to legislative problems. This is a result of partisan jerry mandarin. I live in a district that's been Republican solid for thirty years and will be republic for another ten years. I am deprived of the meaningful election day experience, not because there's no Democrats living around me, but because the city has been split in half, where Democrats on one side of the seat and Republicans on the other side of the street, and we're stuck. I think if there were less partisan jerry managers. Right now, there's only about thirty seats in the House of Representatives that are truly competitive. If there were three hundred and fifty or four hundred seats that were truly competitive, then the extremists wouldn't be able to behave as they do without being accountable to the people that elected to office the next time the election cycle comes around.

Particiansanship is very difficult and maybe maybe almost impossible because the House of Representatives has been polarized because by because the majority of the People's members the House of Representatives have safe seats and therefore unwilling to engage in bipartisan solutions to legislative problems. This is a result of partisan jerry mandarin. I live in a district that's been Republican solid for thirty years and will be republic for another ten years. I am deprived of the meaningful election day experience, not because there's no Democrats living around me, but because the city has been split in half, where Democrats on one side of the seat and Republicans on the other side of the street, and we're stuck. I think if there were less partisan jerry managers. Right now, there's only about thirty seats in the House of Representatives that are truly competitive. If there were three hundred and fifty or four hundred seats that were truly competitive, then the extremists wouldn't be able to behave as they do without being accountable to the people that elected to office the next time the election cycle comes around.

John a great point. I want to bring that to the congressman, and I'll just say, Congressman, that one of my favorite quotes from the late Anne Richards, the former governor of Texas. She was on Larry King Live, and she said, she said about the jerrymandering, Larry, some of these districts are so Jerry Mannard, you could drive down the street with both your car doors open and hit every house. So to the put the point that John was making though, what about that? How much of that is the problems these safe seats, the jerrymandering and and that sort of thing.

John a great point. I want to bring that to the congressman, and I'll just say, Congressman, that one of my favorite quotes from the late Anne Richards, the former governor of Texas. She was on Larry King Live, and she said, she said about the jerrymandering, Larry, some of these districts are so Jerry Mannard, you could drive down the street with both your car doors open and hit every house. So to the put the point that John was making though, what about that? How much of that is the problems these safe seats, the jerrymandering and and that sort of thing.

Yeah, what a legacy with the end here? Well, hey, North Carolina, we have just experienced a redistricting process. And I want to explain this to everyone because it's not just North Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina. We can go on across the Union. But here in North Carolina, many of our elections are extremely competitive, come down to just a few thousand of votes. But we had a court using special masters to draw the map, and we landed with fourteen districts, seven Democrats, seven Republicans. And now under the new plan, we're going to ten Republicans, three Democrats, and one toss up. Now, just so happened, I'm the toss up seat.

Yeah, what a legacy with the end here? Well, hey, North Carolina, we have just experienced a redistricting process. And I want to explain this to everyone because it's not just North Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina. We can go on across the Union. But here in North Carolina, many of our elections are extremely competitive, come down to just a few thousand of votes. But we had a court using special masters to draw the map, and we landed with fourteen districts, seven Democrats, seven Republicans. And now under the new plan, we're going to ten Republicans, three Democrats, and one toss up. Now, just so happened, I'm the toss up seat.

Uh huh, that's why you're in the middle. You got to appeal everybody.

Uh huh, that's why you're in the middle. You got to appeal everybody.

But to to calls point, I've been in the elected office from mayor to state Senate, now in the US House, and Jeremy I'm still trying to figure out what a safe seat is like. But we've operated in this space for a long time, and I can definitely tell you that as you move towards competition in our elections, as we move beyond political partisan jerimanders and even yet still racial ger manders, that we tend to see this out there. It really forced, It forces more conversation, competitiveness, and really it inspires members to go and seek an opportunity to the work across the island, reach out to others.

But to to calls point, I've been in the elected office from mayor to state Senate, now in the US House, and Jeremy I'm still trying to figure out what a safe seat is like. But we've operated in this space for a long time, and I can definitely tell you that as you move towards competition in our elections, as we move beyond political partisan jerimanders and even yet still racial ger manders, that we tend to see this out there. It really forced, It forces more conversation, competitiveness, and really it inspires members to go and seek an opportunity to the work across the island, reach out to others.

Hey, Jeremy, Yeah, go ahead, Adam.

Hey, Jeremy, Yeah, go ahead, Adam.

I think John's asked such an important question, and I really appreciate the Congressman's response. Likewise, I take a lot of heart, by the way, from what I understand about the congressman, I hope he's the first of many, maybe a new generation that has greater appreciation for the problems that our bipolarity is causing. But a couple quick points. I think it's it's noteworthy that the Congressman has had experience as a mayor and has had experience in genuinely competitive district and politics that's increasingly rare, and whereas it was clearly assignable a lot of it to partisan jeremandering by both parties in different places. It's less so these days, unfortunately, we have begun to cluster and and to be more homogeneous geographically, such that in some places I could a lot of places I could show you'd almost have to reverse jerrymander if you wanted a genuinely competitive politics.

I think John's asked such an important question, and I really appreciate the Congressman's response. Likewise, I take a lot of heart, by the way, from what I understand about the congressman, I hope he's the first of many, maybe a new generation that has greater appreciation for the problems that our bipolarity is causing. But a couple quick points. I think it's it's noteworthy that the Congressman has had experience as a mayor and has had experience in genuinely competitive district and politics that's increasingly rare, and whereas it was clearly assignable a lot of it to partisan jeremandering by both parties in different places. It's less so these days, unfortunately, we have begun to cluster and and to be more homogeneous geographically, such that in some places I could a lot of places I could show you'd almost have to reverse jerrymander if you wanted a genuinely competitive politics.

In other words, you'd have to draw.

In other words, you'd have to draw.

Not compact districts that respect the existing lines, but you'd have to actively reach out to diversify the place politically. So, you know, thirty nine of our states we've never had this. Thirty nine states today have the same party in charge of both houses and the governorship. Right North Carolina notably is one of the exceptions, and that may explain why they've had a little more bipartisan tradition.

Not compact districts that respect the existing lines, but you'd have to actively reach out to diversify the place politically. So, you know, thirty nine of our states we've never had this. Thirty nine states today have the same party in charge of both houses and the governorship. Right North Carolina notably is one of the exceptions, and that may explain why they've had a little more bipartisan tradition.

Do you think, Governor that the model that some places like California use with a committee that figures out the districts instead of the parties that are in power, does that make more sense to you?

Do you think, Governor that the model that some places like California use with a committee that figures out the districts instead of the parties that are in power, does that make more sense to you?

Well, I don't know that. Yeah, maybe I don't know. I'm in favor of that.

Well, I don't know that. Yeah, maybe I don't know. I'm in favor of that.

I'm just saying that that at this point you could draw lines that are sensible, that that don't presspass existing boundaries the kind that we've always thought would give us less partisan politics, and you might not succeed them.

I'm just saying that that at this point you could draw lines that are sensible, that that don't presspass existing boundaries the kind that we've always thought would give us less partisan politics, and you might not succeed them.

In California is a one party state. I don't care how you draw the lines.

In California is a one party state. I don't care how you draw the lines.

People of the Democrats and people of sometimes from the.

People of the Democrats and people of sometimes from the.

Far left of that party are going to be in charge there.

Far left of that party are going to be in charge there.

Right, Let's go to Len, who's calling from Massachusetts. Len, Welcome to the middle.

Right, Let's go to Len, who's calling from Massachusetts. Len, Welcome to the middle.

Go ahead, Oh great, thanks. The first thing, you know, I'm really glad that there's a talk till finally that deals with takes the stand of being in the middle, because there are just too many cocktails that are on one friend or the other. And you know, I think that exactly the some of the hostility that we have, you know, going on in this country. You know, just another little personal note. You know, I ran for Congress myself in twenty eighteen as a Democrat, and I didn't, you know, vaked when I read about some of the things going on in Congress. Now, I think maybe the voters did me a favor, you know.

Go ahead, Oh great, thanks. The first thing, you know, I'm really glad that there's a talk till finally that deals with takes the stand of being in the middle, because there are just too many cocktails that are on one friend or the other. And you know, I think that exactly the some of the hostility that we have, you know, going on in this country. You know, just another little personal note. You know, I ran for Congress myself in twenty eighteen as a Democrat, and I didn't, you know, vaked when I read about some of the things going on in Congress. Now, I think maybe the voters did me a favor, you know.

All.

All.

Yes, I've been following Congress. I have never seen such such stack fighting. And I know a number of people have called in and say they want a third party, and I don't think that's the answer, right. You know, when the Framers developed, well, the way our constitution was set up. Originally, the Framers never thought of any parties. They didn't want any parties. But the system was set up and touch away that it encouraged two parties. And the way our whole electoral system works now it's really binary. You had a third party to get you know, people getting elected siightening off votes some other candidates and the voters might get a result that they don't want. I think what needs to be done, hopefully is to get the moderates in both parties to form a more formal coalition and work on issues together. I know it's been done at art I don't think it needs to be done on a permanent basis.

Yes, I've been following Congress. I have never seen such such stack fighting. And I know a number of people have called in and say they want a third party, and I don't think that's the answer, right. You know, when the Framers developed, well, the way our constitution was set up. Originally, the Framers never thought of any parties. They didn't want any parties. But the system was set up and touch away that it encouraged two parties. And the way our whole electoral system works now it's really binary. You had a third party to get you know, people getting elected siightening off votes some other candidates and the voters might get a result that they don't want. I think what needs to be done, hopefully is to get the moderates in both parties to form a more formal coalition and work on issues together. I know it's been done at art I don't think it needs to be done on a permanent basis.

Congressman, let me go to you with that. You're in the problem Solvers Caucus. Is that solving problems? I mean, are you? Are you having results.

Congressman, let me go to you with that. You're in the problem Solvers Caucus. Is that solving problems? I mean, are you? Are you having results.

The problem Solvers Caucuses? To let everyone know, we are caucus of Democrats Republicans equal number, thirty two Democrats thirty two Republicans. And I can tell you there's been a lot of positive you know, to come out of the problem solvers. You know, inspiring dialogue. I can tell you it became a little challenging even as we were dealing with the speaker election and Va Caden the speaker. But you know, we're still moving forward to forge, you know, those relationships and continue to keep the problem solvers moving forward.

The problem Solvers Caucuses? To let everyone know, we are caucus of Democrats Republicans equal number, thirty two Democrats thirty two Republicans. And I can tell you there's been a lot of positive you know, to come out of the problem solvers. You know, inspiring dialogue. I can tell you it became a little challenging even as we were dealing with the speaker election and Va Caden the speaker. But you know, we're still moving forward to forge, you know, those relationships and continue to keep the problem solvers moving forward.

At Tolliver. There's an interesting stat from the Pew Research Center. Americans who follow government most of the time are generally less likely than other Americans to perceive common ground between Republicans and Democrats in Washington.

At Tolliver. There's an interesting stat from the Pew Research Center. Americans who follow government most of the time are generally less likely than other Americans to perceive common ground between Republicans and Democrats in Washington.

That is interesting, and yet people are drawn to the idea. Listen here to former President Barack Obama using the promise of bipartisanship to help launch his presidential campaign. Here he is invoking Abraham Lincoln, who famously said a house divided against his self cannot stand by ourselves.

That is interesting, and yet people are drawn to the idea. Listen here to former President Barack Obama using the promise of bipartisanship to help launch his presidential campaign. Here he is invoking Abraham Lincoln, who famously said a house divided against his self cannot stand by ourselves.

This change will not happen.

This change will not happen.

Divided, we are bound to faire.

Divided, we are bound to faire.

But the life of a tall.

But the life of a tall.

Gangly, self made Springfield lawyer tells us that a different future as possible.

Gangly, self made Springfield lawyer tells us that a different future as possible.

I'm pretty gangly myself.

I'm pretty gangly myself.

I relate to that.

I relate to that.

More of the middle coming up after this break.

More of the middle coming up after this break.

This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about. Bipartisanship is it still possible. My guests are Mitch Daniels, a Republican and a two term governor of Indiana, and Democratic Congressman Don Davis of North Carolina. Our number is eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also reach out to us at Listen to the Middle dot com where Tolliver what are we seeing right now?

This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about. Bipartisanship is it still possible. My guests are Mitch Daniels, a Republican and a two term governor of Indiana, and Democratic Congressman Don Davis of North Carolina. Our number is eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three five three. You can also reach out to us at Listen to the Middle dot com where Tolliver what are we seeing right now?

Alan from Longmont, Colorado rights Personally. I used to be able to understand the other side of the island budget and keeping the debt down. But when I see speakers of the RNC saying trans people shouldn't exist and open bigoty being allowed without anyone saying anything, I don't think I'll be able to see eye to eye with them.

Alan from Longmont, Colorado rights Personally. I used to be able to understand the other side of the island budget and keeping the debt down. But when I see speakers of the RNC saying trans people shouldn't exist and open bigoty being allowed without anyone saying anything, I don't think I'll be able to see eye to eye with them.

Governor Daniels, let me go to you on just sort of that idea, because this is something that comes up not just on the issue of trans rights or but on many issues where people feel like they can't possibly even talk to the other side because their very existence feels like it is being denied by the other side.

Governor Daniels, let me go to you on just sort of that idea, because this is something that comes up not just on the issue of trans rights or but on many issues where people feel like they can't possibly even talk to the other side because their very existence feels like it is being denied by the other side.

Well, I don't quarrel.

Well, I don't quarrel.

If that's their impression, then it's certainly injurious to getting things done. People think that, and by the way, I'm going to insist that there are people of a very different value set who feel equally threatened, put upon, disparaged, and look down on.

If that's their impression, then it's certainly injurious to getting things done. People think that, and by the way, I'm going to insist that there are people of a very different value set who feel equally threatened, put upon, disparaged, and look down on.

And so I think that.

And so I think that.

Some resumption of a sense of tolerance. I say, again, tolerance doesn't imply endorsement. But you know, we really need as a starting point to buy partisanship. I think an acceptance that we're not going to agree on some of these questions. We've got questions we better agree on. Somebody just mentioned the debt. It's going to crush this country economically and lead to enormous social betrayal when we can't keep the promises we've made in our safety net programs. You know, that's one example among others. I could offer that we share in common, and I hope for leadership from either side.

Some resumption of a sense of tolerance. I say, again, tolerance doesn't imply endorsement. But you know, we really need as a starting point to buy partisanship. I think an acceptance that we're not going to agree on some of these questions. We've got questions we better agree on. Somebody just mentioned the debt. It's going to crush this country economically and lead to enormous social betrayal when we can't keep the promises we've made in our safety net programs. You know, that's one example among others. I could offer that we share in common, and I hope for leadership from either side.

Vote that says, Look, we're.

Vote that says, Look, we're.

Just gonna have to understand that on some of these values and social questions, they're too personal, they're too deeply felt. We're not going to be rate each other into agreement. So let's agree to disagree and get busy on the things that threaten us.

Just gonna have to understand that on some of these values and social questions, they're too personal, they're too deeply felt. We're not going to be rate each other into agreement. So let's agree to disagree and get busy on the things that threaten us.

All.

All.

Well, let's go to Lee in Wilsonville, Alabama. Lee welcome to the middle Go ahead.

Well, let's go to Lee in Wilsonville, Alabama. Lee welcome to the middle Go ahead.

Thank you. True by parisanship can only occur if two or more sides are negotiating in good faith to try and do something to improve their country or their particular jurisdiction. Unfortunately, today, and I've been a Republican all my life, now before I say this, now, the Republican Party is not negotiating good faith. They're lying about everything, including elections. They don't have policies that are winners these days, so they've gone anti democratic just to return in power. So true by a partnership is dead until the Republican Party as it is currently configured just gets shellacked at the national level.

Thank you. True by parisanship can only occur if two or more sides are negotiating in good faith to try and do something to improve their country or their particular jurisdiction. Unfortunately, today, and I've been a Republican all my life, now before I say this, now, the Republican Party is not negotiating good faith. They're lying about everything, including elections. They don't have policies that are winners these days, so they've gone anti democratic just to return in power. So true by a partnership is dead until the Republican Party as it is currently configured just gets shellacked at the national level.

How do your fellow Republicans in Alabama feel when you tell them.

How do your fellow Republicans in Alabama feel when you tell them.

That, they get really really angry.

That, they get really really angry.

Well maybe some of them are listening right now, getting very angry that you said that.

Well maybe some of them are listening right now, getting very angry that you said that.

Lead.

Lead.

Thank you for that call. Let's let's squeeze in another one. Here, Amy is calling from Chicago, Illinois. Hi, Amy, welcome to the Middle.

Thank you for that call. Let's let's squeeze in another one. Here, Amy is calling from Chicago, Illinois. Hi, Amy, welcome to the Middle.

Hi, thank you so much for your program. Ask for the question of the days by partisanship still possible? I believe it is. I look at the history of our country. I'm a national Parks, Boss, and have heard so many situations where in this country, in our very country, by partisanship was crazy and we survived pendulum swing. So I say thank you so much for your two guests who are both in my view, moving us toward a solution, and that we need to just keep putting one foot in front of the other and being polite and trying to work things out. And thank you for.

Hi, thank you so much for your program. Ask for the question of the days by partisanship still possible? I believe it is. I look at the history of our country. I'm a national Parks, Boss, and have heard so many situations where in this country, in our very country, by partisanship was crazy and we survived pendulum swing. So I say thank you so much for your two guests who are both in my view, moving us toward a solution, and that we need to just keep putting one foot in front of the other and being polite and trying to work things out. And thank you for.

Your thank you, thank you today, Thank you Amy, Congress. I'm going to go to you on that because Amy brings up the history. Obviously, when you think about and you know you're an African American member of Congress, when you think about the Civil War in this country, when you think about the Civil Rights era in this country, things have been a lot worse it seems than they are now.

Your thank you, thank you today, Thank you Amy, Congress. I'm going to go to you on that because Amy brings up the history. Obviously, when you think about and you know you're an African American member of Congress, when you think about the Civil War in this country, when you think about the Civil Rights era in this country, things have been a lot worse it seems than they are now.

Oh.

Oh.

Absolutely, when you look at the strength of the American people over time, historically, we tend to pull together and come together. You know, we may not see it right now, we may not totally feel it right now. I mean, just think the one hundred and eighteenth Congress, well, the first time in the history of the Union we vacated a speaker. But I would say that we will come out stronger look at where we are today. I just want to point the finger at this. For instance, you know, when I'm not going to say the Texas two step here, but the Louisiana two step. We wrote out a continuing resolution that had two steps in which we would phase in. That was not a preference of the Democratic Caucus. At the same time, you know, there was still concerns within the Republican Caucus conference regarding spending levels.

Absolutely, when you look at the strength of the American people over time, historically, we tend to pull together and come together. You know, we may not see it right now, we may not totally feel it right now. I mean, just think the one hundred and eighteenth Congress, well, the first time in the history of the Union we vacated a speaker. But I would say that we will come out stronger look at where we are today. I just want to point the finger at this. For instance, you know, when I'm not going to say the Texas two step here, but the Louisiana two step. We wrote out a continuing resolution that had two steps in which we would phase in. That was not a preference of the Democratic Caucus. At the same time, you know, there was still concerns within the Republican Caucus conference regarding spending levels.

But here we are.

But here we are.

We are the day after and the government is still operating, and we're preparing now for families to come together and enjoy I would hopefully great Thanksgiving together.

We are the day after and the government is still operating, and we're preparing now for families to come together and enjoy I would hopefully great Thanksgiving together.

Yeah, you're you're joining us from North Carolina rather than being in Washington as you wait to see if you know you need to vote leading right up to Thanksgiving, which you know you may have to do in the future. Let's see. Kevin is with us from Saint Louis, Missouri. Hi, Kevin, welcome to the Middle.

Yeah, you're you're joining us from North Carolina rather than being in Washington as you wait to see if you know you need to vote leading right up to Thanksgiving, which you know you may have to do in the future. Let's see. Kevin is with us from Saint Louis, Missouri. Hi, Kevin, welcome to the Middle.

Thank you. I really appreciate this show that you're doing. I am responding to a comment that suggested that the reason that we have fringes, fringe candidates from each party is because of the way the system was built. But I would point out that that's only true if we have winner takes all voting. So, for instance, you have let's say twenty sixteen Republican primaries in many of the early states, you had say, three quarters of people not voting for Trump, and yet he would win states because he had, say, twenty five percent of the vote and other candidates had fifteen, twelve, ten, nine percent of the vote. And at the party primary level, would be the easiest way to make a change without requiring legislation to be passed. If the say the RNC and DNC decided to implement choice voting for primaries or approval voting, one of these other methods, and it would favor a more moderate candidate from that from within the party, and then you'd have, you know, you wouldn't have an election where the great majority of the people didn't like either of the candidates that were on the ballot that had any chance of winning.

Thank you. I really appreciate this show that you're doing. I am responding to a comment that suggested that the reason that we have fringes, fringe candidates from each party is because of the way the system was built. But I would point out that that's only true if we have winner takes all voting. So, for instance, you have let's say twenty sixteen Republican primaries in many of the early states, you had say, three quarters of people not voting for Trump, and yet he would win states because he had, say, twenty five percent of the vote and other candidates had fifteen, twelve, ten, nine percent of the vote. And at the party primary level, would be the easiest way to make a change without requiring legislation to be passed. If the say the RNC and DNC decided to implement choice voting for primaries or approval voting, one of these other methods, and it would favor a more moderate candidate from that from within the party, and then you'd have, you know, you wouldn't have an election where the great majority of the people didn't like either of the candidates that were on the ballot that had any chance of winning.

Okay, rank choice voting, let's go to Mitch Daniels on that one does something like that, Mitch Daniels, sound like it would go a long way toward helping bipartisanship in this country, or even just changes to the systems of how we vote.

Okay, rank choice voting, let's go to Mitch Daniels on that one does something like that, Mitch Daniels, sound like it would go a long way toward helping bipartisanship in this country, or even just changes to the systems of how we vote.

I appreciate the question. I thought and hope that it would that this idea would come up.

I appreciate the question. I thought and hope that it would that this idea would come up.

Uh.

Uh.

I think my own answer is that I'm not sure. I'm not sure any of us is I.

I think my own answer is that I'm not sure. I'm not sure any of us is I.

You know, a great.

You know, a great.

Advantage of our federal system is the is that our ability to experiment on less than a national level and find things that work or identify things that sound good but don't work. And I'm very glad without without being sure that it will work well and would work well nationally, and in practice, I'm very glad that several states are experimenting with it or have attempted it, and here and there I think.

Advantage of our federal system is the is that our ability to experiment on less than a national level and find things that work or identify things that sound good but don't work. And I'm very glad without without being sure that it will work well and would work well nationally, and in practice, I'm very glad that several states are experimenting with it or have attempted it, and here and there I think.

It does show promise.

It does show promise.

So if there's a structural way out, let me put it this way. I already said that I'm just not sure that even the most fair minded of redistricting will anymore make a sufficient difference, giving the demographic trends that we've seen, the clustering and so forth. But if there's a structural change that might materially alter where the status quo, that might well be it.

So if there's a structural way out, let me put it this way. I already said that I'm just not sure that even the most fair minded of redistricting will anymore make a sufficient difference, giving the demographic trends that we've seen, the clustering and so forth. But if there's a structural change that might materially alter where the status quo, that might well be it.

You know, Kathy in New Mexico writes into us at Listen to the middle dot com. If it's true that over half of Americans are not happy about the candidates for twenty twenty four? Why can we not move toward ranked choice voting to reach a middle And by the way, ranked choice voting is what propelled Alaska's bipartisan Senate leadership system that is now in place. Congressman, what do you think about ranked choice voting?

You know, Kathy in New Mexico writes into us at Listen to the middle dot com. If it's true that over half of Americans are not happy about the candidates for twenty twenty four? Why can we not move toward ranked choice voting to reach a middle And by the way, ranked choice voting is what propelled Alaska's bipartisan Senate leadership system that is now in place. Congressman, what do you think about ranked choice voting?

We think about ranked choice voting? I would tend to align with the governor. It's good to continue to explore and look at ways that we can make meaningful reforms. But I think there's still a lot for us to learn and to still, you know, evaluate an assess there could be true merit in that process.

We think about ranked choice voting? I would tend to align with the governor. It's good to continue to explore and look at ways that we can make meaningful reforms. But I think there's still a lot for us to learn and to still, you know, evaluate an assess there could be true merit in that process.

Let's get back to the phones. Susannah is with us from Silverthorne, Colorado. Susannah welcome, Thank you, go ahead.

Let's get back to the phones. Susannah is with us from Silverthorne, Colorado. Susannah welcome, Thank you, go ahead.

What do you think my comments?

What do you think my comments?

I'm ready?

I'm ready?

Well, I just want to apologize I'm not an eloquent speaker. But I think that the one of the byproducts of the jury manadering is where are the jury mandering where you have the dominant party, you know, trying to create the most advantageous voting systems for them, and then essentially dividing them between democratic and Republican areas. Has led to the bipartisanship because it does not give you much of a choice. If you have mixed areas with both parties represented fairly equally, I think people are more likely to look at the actual candidates, the character of the candidates, the leadership qualities of the candidates, and not just which party.

Well, I just want to apologize I'm not an eloquent speaker. But I think that the one of the byproducts of the jury manadering is where are the jury mandering where you have the dominant party, you know, trying to create the most advantageous voting systems for them, and then essentially dividing them between democratic and Republican areas. Has led to the bipartisanship because it does not give you much of a choice. If you have mixed areas with both parties represented fairly equally, I think people are more likely to look at the actual candidates, the character of the candidates, the leadership qualities of the candidates, and not just which party.

They belonged to.

They belonged to.

Susanna, that was ver. That was very eloquent. Thank you for calling it was you were good. Let me let me ask the governor actually about about that. What you just said there, Governor, what are your thoughts? We talked about jerry mandering a bit, but what do you think.

Susanna, that was ver. That was very eloquent. Thank you for calling it was you were good. Let me let me ask the governor actually about about that. What you just said there, Governor, what are your thoughts? We talked about jerry mandering a bit, but what do you think.

I think in an ideal world we would have competitive politics. The congressman would put it well a few minutes ago. Competitive politics incentivizes those in or seeking public offer.

I think in an ideal world we would have competitive politics. The congressman would put it well a few minutes ago. Competitive politics incentivizes those in or seeking public offer.

Us to.

Us to.

Seek out or at least to avoid those position statements, postures that antagonize or drive away people, and to seek out those that might bring people together. And you know, I'm back to saying that if one's goal in public life is simply self preservation, in the world we're in now, you know you can your definition of success is to get off a snappy tweet that breaks through the clutter. Well, that's not hard to do if your goal really is to make change, especially big change. Everything in my experience has taught me that big change requires big majorities. You've got to look for ways to bring disparate people together, and that does require settling, almost always settling for less than you less than one hundred percent of what you hope for. You know, it doesn't once again, you can pursue firm principles and should vigorously, but you if you really want to produce change in the end, you have to recognize that almost never is any victory total, or probably should be in a pluralistic society.