The Mentor with Mark Bouris#444 The PR Playbook: Mastering your message with Odette Barry
Odette Barry is a seasoned publicist, Public Relations mentor, and the Director of Odette & Co, a thriving PR and digital marketing agency based in Byron Bay.
With over 15 years of industry experience, Odette has honed her expertise in crafting compelling narratives and amplifying the voices of businesses across various sectors.
Now as the head honcho of Odette & Co, Odette is dedicated to fostering strong relationships with clients and her talented team, embodying a collaborative approach grounded in trust and integrity. Her consultancy arm has garnered acclaim for its ability to tackle complex communications challenges and deliver tangible results for clients spanning the technology, education, beauty, wellness, health, and fashion sectors.
We spoke about how PR has evolved, creating the right relationships, the importance of controlling your own story, how most marketing boils down to common sense, her work with startups, handling PR disasters, and much more.
Learn more about Odette's work here:https://www.odetteandco.com.au/
You can subscribe to the newsletter here: https://mentored.com.au/newsletter-sign-up
Follow Mark Bouris on Instagram, LinkedIn & YouTube.
Welcome to the Mentor. I'm Mark Boris Odette Barry. Welcome to the Mentor.
Thank you.
Now you're the founder of Odette and Co. What do you guys do.
Well, I'm a publicist, and I guess I'm probably doing things a little bit differently. I actually teach people how to do their own PR as the main bread and butter of our work. So we're a micro PR agency based out of Byron Bay, and we really focus on working with change makers, so people that are really disrupting their industry and trying to focus that energy around making the world a bit of a better place.
So you just said use tours really interestingly then, and the two words always confused me. I'm sure a lot of listeners would be not sure where they mean either. So you said publicists and you use the two words PR, which is public relations. Maybe you could just tell me what you mean by a publicist, So, I know, roxy just saying it as a publicist, right, which basically means she will get if I wanted to, she would get me in a paper somewhere or in a radio or something like that. What is actually a publicist do?
Yeah, it's such a good question because honestly, like I would say, nine times out of ten, most people don't understand what PR is. Look I think prs are ultimately middleman. It's our gig to help our clients to get visibility, and that's changed a lot over the years, and particularly in the last decade. I think traditionally a publicist's role would be to try and position their client in a positive light in front of the right audiences. So that's like the bread and butter. But I think what how I really feel about it is to I like to use to think about PR as being a vehicle for changing the hearts and minds of people across whatever channel.
That is.
So traditionally that might have been magazines, newspapers, television. These days that sort of moved into the podcast space, into the influencer landscape, digital media. So our role has really evolved and the space that we operate. But yeah, helping people become visible.
What's interesting about that is if you ask, say Cornwell Bank or Telstra how many people they got their PR department, they'll tell you there'll be a heap. The public relations in those environments is a lot different to the sort of public relations and or publicist services that maybe your clients want totally, because PR in those environments is more about governance and protecting the brand as opposed to promoting the brand. Hosing down a problem there could have been a data breach or something like that. Like that's when the public relations teams comes in totally. How do we manage this shitty outcome and make sure there's not too much damage damage control? Yeah, and or making sure nothing goes out that could create damage control. So a lot of times it's about diluting the announcement.
Yeah. And look, I think there's you know, probably twenty different streams of PR from crisis management to you know, reputation management through to you know internal communications. As being part of that the space that you know, like at UNI, I was learning how to manage an oil spill on behalf of a you know, oil company, and how you would mitigate the reputational damage. That's not the space I work in at all. That's I think I'd be terrible in that domain. I The way that I work with PR is actually you know, much smaller end of town. So those emerging leaders, emerging businesses that really just want to try and get visible, so they're not really having to worry about those negative you know, crises that are popping up from some kind of disaster, tech breach, or whatever it might be. They're really good news stories, so they're a lot easier to put out there. I think once you have a more established name, there's a bit more clout and visibility. There is a lot more complexity to the messages that you're putting out there. You know, you might have hundreds of stakeholders that you have to keep on board or shareholders, so it becomes a lot more complex. I'm down the like good news end of the scale. Just yeah, really helping epic humans get on podcasts like the Mentor, Like lots of my students have come and chatted with you from pitching their own stories and them being the person that can actually put themselves out there and they don't have to pay an arm and a leg for a publicist because we're expensive for a small end of town, Like an early stage business can't always afford to pay for a pr. So I really like to help the smaller businesses.
So it's and I've experienced both ends of it in my own life having worked with General Electric for a long time. You know, a global business which you know, you weren't even allowed to use the word general Electric or even the low logo the lozenge that was at the bottom there. We sometimes it would take if we want to announce something. Literally when I had the Indian business, the business in India with g I was a partner with them. For us to use the logo, I think it took four months of approval time and we had to go get the head of India degree. We had to get the head of Japan which is the region regional head degree. Then it had the regional head had to go back to Connecticut to get the head office to agree to use the logo and.
On inspiring process and on.
Each occasion because I was used to an email, own business and do whatever I want when it's just just Afterwardsard. But the process of getting it done too was you had to not only talk to the head of the country, the head of the region or the head of the world globally I'm talking about you had to get they had to be advised by the head of public relations or corporate relations. They caught it was public relations, and you had to pitch to every single one of them, and it was like such a punishing process. Like in then I felt like giving up a few times. You're so less so to be clear, because I'm more I'm quite interested getting the terminology right. So to be clear, you're not in that territory. You're not in that. That's what I call corporate public relations. When you talk about public relations at the beginning and or publicists, in other words, you're trying to at least get your client, the individual in front of a camera or on a page or in front of a microphone, so that they can actually talk about what they do, what their proposition is.
Yeah, totally, so helping their Yeah, definitely not in the corporate end of town. I worked in the corporate end of town, not my favorite, and I worked in for government organizations as well and have felt the delight of the many layers of sign off. I think I probably the cowboy territory of small business and the startup landscape. Yeah, helping those people get out there and share their message, and that can be like multi layered. I think there's moments where you can be the story and you know you're doing something but that's really interesting and worthy of a conversation. But the thing that I think I really really like is a thought as a strategy, and that's where people are going out there with their big ideas for change. So it might not be that you have this really cool thing that you're doing in that moment that's going to be worthy, but you can go out there as an expert and comment on what's happening in the football industry or what's happening in the energy industry, and you're there as part of the conversation. And that's a really valuable way for emerging voices to build their brand. So let's say.
I've got an idea, and let's say I'm a technology person, a stem as scientist or a technologist, and I've got this idea that's bubbling around in my mind, and I think I can create a device to manage or end or cure something, or identify something, to diagnose something. And let's say it's in a popular territory. Now, concussion, good example. You mentioned that rugby. You mentioned a sport concussion. What do you But I haven't really established it yet. I've sort of got my ideas together. I'm maybe thinking about down the track talking to someone to come and funded for me, you know, speaking to high net worse or venture capitalist, et cetera. But I still really haven't got my pitch ready for them. But I got the idea, and given social media today, would you say to that individual, well, how do you assess whether that individual should start to talk about the problem, not so much the solution, but actually put themselves out there as the expert and accessible expert on that particular issue. At what point do they start doing that or should they wait until they've got the product or you know, how's it all worked? Because I would have thought that's a typical sort of person you should come and see you.
Yeah, yeah, Look, I mean lots of people tackle this in different ways. I'm a really big fan of like founder led or expert led pr where that person you know, like Anita Saka who came and chatted. She's someone who's out there always chatting, having conversations, and so it means that has a beautiful halo effect over whatever product book that she launches because she's always part of conversations. So for me, but how do you do that?
Though? So if you don't, as I did, so, A good example that was John Simon's when he launched Jolsey Homelanes. He put himself in the conversation about, you know, how banks run fair and the way they treated people relative to borrowing money, how they wold very judgmental, et cetera. And he just put himself in the conversation in the early days we're talking about the nineties, and he became he was an expert. He's an expert. He'd been doing his whole life as a mortgage broker, so he understood the territory. How do you establish yourself one as someone who the media wants to talk to you about the territory? How do you put out you're the expert? You have to go on right an article in the conversation. I mean, like, how does all this stuff work? What would you say to.
Somebody, Well, you have to be an academic PhD to get an article with them with the conversation, tell me about that. So you need to be aligned with an academic institution and have a PhD to write for the conversation. That's what they stand for. But in terms of like just that foundational piece where you've got lived or academic or worked experience. So you might have personal exposure to domestic violence, or you might have studied incarceration policy, or you might have worked in a particular industry for ten plus years and you've kind of got some good ideas, you really intimately understand a thing. They're kind of like the three core things that you need to have at least one.
You need one of those.
Yeah. Yeah, So I don't think that to be an expert you have to go to UNI or have studied a particular thing. I think in an academic institution, I think you can study a thing in life.
Does it help if you have got an academic.
It depends what the domain is, So, particularly with science technology, there's definitely a lot of value there.
Does it make your job easier if the person, for example, has a PhD?
Yeah? Does it make your job interesting? Conversation I've had with a client recently that I worked with Sophie Walker. She is the podcaster behind Australian birth Stories, and we worked on her book launch last year and she was honestly saying to me, should I go back and do a PhD? She's got sixteen million downloads, four hundred and fifty episodes talking interviewing women about their birth stories. It's like, I really don't think that you can get much more experience and exposure to understanding that intimate detail of birth then talking to four hundred plus women blow by blow of that experience. So there's moments where you definitely and I think it probably more comes down to self doubt and the impost that we all have to navigate through. But you can absolutely have the lived experience and those the intimate understanding of an issue. And that's what it comes down to, like how good is your understanding of an issue? You know, can you speak until the cows come home? Do you have all of the you know, latest data. You don't have to be an academic to collate data if you read the news, if you're reading peer reviewed journals, you know, if you're listening to podcasts and all of those conversations and collating your own fact sheet. And that's something that I urge anyone that's thinking about doing PR to be doing. It's not just good for PR, it's good for business. Like if you're pitching to an investor and you can rattle off who you know, the big names, who the big influencers, who the leading researchers, and who's holding the purse, that's going to make a really big difference in how you operate in business as well. So that foundational piece, I think.
So to stop you there from when you say that foundational piece, is that foundational piece in terms of being either having lived or studied either lived experience or studied academic experience and or qualifications. That foundation piece is that about you establishing you the individual, not you, but the point their cred other words, because that's going to send off this person's profile maybe and or whatever this person is saying to a media outlet. At the end of the day, you want to get into a media outlet whatever, there's a podcast where it's channel Today's show, whatever it is news, You've got to because you've got to get past the producer or you've got to get the producer's interest totally.
Relative to the show.
Your job is to know what they are interested in. But you've got to say with this person got cred, So credit is either one of those PhD lived in experience, lived experience, or whatever the case may be. That's the first thing. So you've got to get cred and relevancy. What about then convincing that the story is a good story, Like in other words, Okay, this person is the real deal, but might be it's a bit boring or how do you work out that and how do you get your client to find that those few threads that will get them excited about putting it on television because at end of the day, for example, television or radio, they were the listeners to like it. You're looking for your content or your client's content.
Totally, So how do you do that?
What's the deal?
Yeah, well, I guess like lots of prs tackle this differently. Some will do the big events and activations and build the wackiest thing ever and then suddenly you've got a story because it's unusual.
Richard Brain and stuff. Yeah, take down middle of Martin Place and pointed.
In the arm Williams one in Mutton Place as well, like and that they're great, they work. I've worked on campaigns where we've had hundreds of tradees doing workouts in Martin Place, like you know that that is a strategy. But for me, I think human emotion is something that's really helpful for television. So it's Sunrise or Today Show. They're looking for what is the human interest piece? So if you go to them with a really corporate story, it's not going to necessarily translate to their audience. So you have to find a way to make their audience care. So for me, I always am thinking about what's that ven diagram, what's the crossover between what you give a shit about and what they give a shit about? And where do they cross over? Because the media outlet is not going to move closer to you. They know what works for them, what their audience loves. That's exactly. So it's really important, I think for anyone that's going out in and do some pr for themselves is to think, well, what are the things like? The rule of ten is what I live by. So I always say to anyone that is thinking about pitching a story, go and watch that show ten times. Listen to ten episodes of that podcast before you pitch, because you'll understand where you fit in their narrative. You'll know, Okay, they're really interested in business stories. They like, you know, the human interest. They want to hear your fuck ups. They want it, you know, or it'll be the other ones where you have to be really squeaky clean and your CEO magazine or Forbes version is going to be totally different to the Mark Boris Vergin yep.
I get that. And because I think this, if you don't mind that we just step through this because I think is really important.
Well, this is my favorite topic totally.
I'm sure it is. It's one of my favorites too, because most people don't know what they're doing. Yeah, and it's not that scientific, but it is a lot of common sense.
It's so simple. I honestly feel like rude taking people's money to teach them how to do pr Yeah.
But a lot of people don't have common sense words. They're in the weeds, they're very invested in there or you just.
Don't know what you don't know right, like it's over there and you kind of have to do a bit of guesswork unless you know someone that can just step you through it. And then it is really it is step.
So there are a number of steps. Yeah, but I want to go to the break when it comes straight back. But when we come back, I want to go. I would like to talk to you about beyond establishing credibility, how important is the ability the skill of storytelling and how do you how does one develop that skill? How important is authenticity? And that's a skill to be able to convey authenticity just because you're authentic doesn't mean you can convey it. And and finally, ian at the end of the day, what are the How important is it to play around with sensationalism sensationalizing things in other words, creating a sense of urgency in the way you speak, the way you look, or using data to for example, we only live for four thousand weeks in our life overage statistically, if you're seventy, you've only got six hundred weeks left. Do something about your life and your health. That that type of sensationalism. I don't mean sensationalism. I mean that sort of sense of urgency for fox.
Sake, Why does that matter right now?
Yeah? Correct that type of stuff. But I'll go to the break one to come straight back. I'm straight back here and I'm with Odette end from Odent and Go like as an odeate Barry the founder of Odent and Co. Which is a I don't know what we call it. I don't like call them publicity publicists or PR.
But we teach people how to get their own PR.
And get on the front foot and get people to notice them. And we will finish you off on some sort of areas around you know, the importance of establishing your credibility, but I do want to talk about what happens after that, In other words, the execution part. Once you can prove your credible to a media outlet, what do you recommend our debt in terms of things like, for example, the ability to tell your story. So no point getting oh wow, it's a great release from my dad. Let's get this person on the you know, the morning show, whichever one it is, and she gets who or she gets on there and they've got nothing. They can't tell a story. How do you train people? How do you what's what's the deal there? How important is that stuff?
Oh, it's so important, And it's really like I think, you know, coming back to that rule of ten. That's a big part of it, because every format has a different style. You know, if you were going to do a radio interview for a section, you might have a seven second SoundBite, So you need to have like a ForWord phrase that's going to work. That's going to be memory, and that's going to be sticky versus you know, if you do an hour podcast, you're going to have to be able to carry some time and explain things in detail. If you're on the couch, you're going to need to have a sunny disposition. And you know, so all of those things really come into really understanding each of the different audiences. And I think historically, I think where people make those mistakes with pr that don't understand it, they'll send out a broadcast media release and a broadcast message BCC every email address they can possibly find. And the data says seventy five percent of journalists, produces, editors say only a quarter of what they receive in their inbox is even valid or like applicable to their platform. You know, every producer I talked to was talk about the swamp of their inbox and it's because people are not tailoring their message to that particular.
Out spray technique.
They're just spray everyone Sprain and Prey. Yes, very impressed.
So that's very interesting. So is that where you come in as a teacher or you come in as a person looks after clients. Is it you or you're asking them to work it out themselves? Is it you who says, look, that story is going to be best in this particular media outlet because that's what they're interested in. And this is the producer and I will you a debt, will send it to them, and the fact that you know they know who you are, this might get put to the top. Bole there's one of our debt and codes releases. We'll have a look at that. Or is it you you saying to the client you have to work out who the best media outlet is.
It depends how much money people are spending right so down.
If you don't lower in the scale, they have to do it themselves. But you teach them.
Yeah yeah, so money. Work it out well with with hack your own pr that I teach online and that's anyone can sign up anytime. That gives people the skills to go out and go, Okay, this is who my customer is. These are the who this cold as I need to get in front of. Ah, I'm going to go through these particular steps to find the publications that makes sense.
These are the places I watch, listen or watch.
Exactly and you know, like a super simple basic version of that is go and have a chat to some of your clients and say what do you read, what do you listen to? Like, where do you go to get entertained or find out information about our industry? That very simple step is that first piece, and then go and google the media kits for those publications. So that's that's the DIY. Learn it yourself for us when we're working on behalf of a client. You know, similarly as your producers would put together a prep for any of your guests that you're having on, that's what we do as well. So we will a be matchmaking to make sure that we're only putting them in front of you know, aligned values, met agreeable places that are going to be you know, receptive to their message. And then we put together a backgrounder. So who is Mark? What's he interested in? Here's maybe two podcasts you should listen to get a sense of his flavor. Here's his style. He might not follow the script, you know, he you know, and here's the format. Here's what to expect, here's how to tackle it. Here's how to get at ease as quickly as you can. These are some of the themes he loves talking about. You know, that's that's our job. But that's all information that absolutely anyone can acquire. A go and listen to my podcast with Jess Smalley. She's given us the background on you you know, like that's that's my job. I go out there in industry and I interview every journalist, editor, producer that I can get in front of to ask them what do they want, what are you looking for, what do you need in a pitch, what kind of talent works for your audience? What topics gets them really excited? And then that's something that absolutely anyone can listen to. So you don't even need to do the course, you know, if you've got some initiative and hustle, just go and have a listen. And and that's you know, in everyone's hands.
How they learn how to tell the story. That's a skill time, you know, pauses, language, tone, confidence. Yeah, you know, people get extraordinarily nervous once it came, once the cameras pointed in their face. It changes the whole world. If you do courses where you put them in front of the camera, show what they look like.
That's not that's not I know some Jess Ridley bt W Media is incredible at that. She has the full crew and makes people nervous as all get out and really like irons out those ticks and quirks that we do in front of what that we do all the time, but we notice in front of a camera. That's not my domain. Like I do a small amount of preparation in how to present, but you know, like I maybe I'm out out of school on this one, but I don't necessarily think a super squeaky clean media trained spokesperson is a good thing. I think it's fucking boring if someone if someone is trying to perfect and you know, not be themselves, it's not super fun to listen to. I think the old world of media training was very much about, you know, making sure you've got the right intonation, whether your gaze is soft enough, whether you're wearing you know, the right color. Like I was talking to a client recently and she was just doing some media training through I'm not going to say who, but through a you know, one of the Big four. And she had the experience of she is a social enterprise and she works on supporting refugees to get their first jobs in Australia. And she she said that she was informed that she shouldn't wear black interviews because it would it didn't align with philanthropy and doing that kind of work. And to me, I just think that is just like the that's too far into like analyzing minutia. Yeah, like I don't. I totally appreciate. Like we have Katrina Blauer from Chattel seven comes and does sessions with our students and she talks about like how to you know, minimize distractions, and half of it's not what you say, it is how you present in the flyaway hairs and the matt you know, buff so that you're not shining like a disco ball under the lights. That's like that real TV space of TV anchors. I don't think that applies in the same way to the talent that are interviewed. I think there is an expectation of this really crisp and polished anchor, but I think the talent can be a little bit more real. So storytelling is really important that you can, you know, say something that is engaging and add detail and color in how you present information. But I don't I don't love like refining yourself to the point of removing the you from the story.
Yeah, it's sort of interesting. There's a balance. You're right, you don't have to come because I think if it comes across as too polished, it can look it can lose as authenticity. Yeah, I mean in authenticity I think is this is a big word these days, but can you just touch on authenticity? I mean, like, how do I show that I'm truly authentic about say the topic of oh, domestic violence for example, it's a good example. I mean, I'm probably hard for me to do that because I'm a male, But if I'm a female, is it important to sort of say that you know someone who's suffered from that or you've suffered from it from it yourself in order to build that empathy factor? Can you be seriously able to talk about the topic if you haven't really experienced it? Oh?
I mean I think I guess I'm trying to apply that to a storytelling format. But like, more from an authentic perspective, I think it's about being honest and like what you don't know, you ask questions about. And I think like empathy comes from understanding, right, So you don't have to have lived experience to be able to experience empathy. I think that starts with curiosity. So where you don't know things, you don't have to say, oh, I know someone who experienced that, because it's potentially taking space away from that person. I think the best response when someone shares like you know something that you don't understand or that might be quite big, is to ask me if they're comfortable telling you more about it, you know, like that's a nice safe space to like open an invitation to learn more. I think the world is so much better by the stories that we share with one another. That is how we learn and grow. So, yeah, I think that's the sort.
How important is it? How important is it to be really? What do you call it? Impactful?
Though?
Is it important to be impactful when you're out there trying to promote what you stand for? And it could be just a simple product that you know, it helps you get your kids to school on time or something like that. It could be a business product that helps you get your kids to school on time. But how important is it to be impactful? Like hit them between the eyes of something that? Wow? I didn't know that.
Yeah. Well, I think it's similar to your four thousand Weeks. Four thousand Weeks.
It's actually a book written called four thousand Weeks.
Yeah. Yeah, I've heard you talk about it a couple of times, and I really feel like I need to read it. Yeah, I feel like so there's a there's a for all of my anti strategy advice. There is a really simple formula when it comes to developing key messages, which can be quite helpful when you want to create that impact, because I think our brains are wired to retain information when it spikes emotion, but also when there's like a simple thing we can hook on too. So you know, a good example of that is to use a stat and then have a following a motive statement, and then you have your product or service as the solution. So Sophie Walker from Australian Birth Stories, for example, you know, she's out there trying to help the one in three women that experience birth trauma in Australia, which is horrific data, so many you know, incredible mental and physical injuries as a result of that, and she's using her podcast to create change in birth trauma. So if you can stack three things together in that way, it helps people go it's that sticky thing that they can hook onto. They'll go, oh god, one in three women, that's terrible, you know, and that oh well, storyteller stories around birth can create change, and I'll go and check that out.
So one of the three things though, the stat, Yeah, what's the second thing?
And a motive hook, so using language that like, you know, talking about the horrors of mental and physical trauma something in that nature. And then you're using yourself or your product or your service as the solution.
So you use the stat which is well, I didn't know that. Second one is you've got to use language as a sort of evocative that.
Makes them feel something.
They go, oh, sure, I didn't you know, like wow. And then the third thing is there's a solution, yeah, and then then obviously direct them to.
Where they need to go totally.
You need tell them where to go. That you have to you have to have a website or something access, give them access.
Yeah, And you can do all manners of that same thing. You can do that in a you know, ten second bit. You can tease that into a thirty second version. You can have a three minute version, so that you can essentially say the same thing, but you can do it in different formats.
That's interesting because, like you said something earlier, which is really important. On radio, you might get seven seconds. How do you I mean, politicians do it all the time, but how do you teach your students.
That no matter you're up there, you've got an objective?
Yeah, and you're seven, you might have seven seconds to say it. And you know as well as anybody, you will send the brief into the particularly radio, and radio will always go off script. They just wander all around the joint and you end up talking about rubbish. You start in the mialle time. But I go in there to talk about Wizard home loans and they want to talk about rugby league and I just think, oh my god, I didn't even get to talk about what I want to talk about.
But you built a relationship and you got your name out there and you were talking about something that matched that format. If you had a gone there and just been like Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard Wizard, everyone's like, oh my god, that guy is so self promotional. You know. It doesn't let the radio announcer get in there. But if you're giving them what they want, it's just so much more effective. But you have to do it often, Yeah, totally, you have to.
It's not just a once only it's one shot go like, you have to keep going back. How do you then get yourself in a position that the in for example, the radio show wants to get you back. So what is it that you have to build a relationship with these individuals, these the hosts of the radio show.
Is that how it works absolutely?
I mean free stuff, free content.
Yeah yeah, Well, at the cornerstone of PR is relationships. Like that's what it all comes down to. So you I always everyone that I teach, whether it's learning how to do their own PR or with the clients that I work with, it all comes down to be be a great person to work with that people enjoy having around. So be really organized, be really helpful, anticipate their needs so that you're giving them what they want proactively, be really curious and engaged with what they're about, and then you're going to get invited back time and time again. And be proactive. And also you have to be a hustler, Like there's just no two ways about it. Like most times I would suggest it's going to be three or four rounds of follow ups before the thing converts. So you've got to be fearless in the face of rejection and radio silence. Because often producers, you know, have hundreds of pictures in their inbox every day, and often the most persistent and aligned will win, you know, and there'll be other aligned ones in the inbox that won't follow up because they're afraid of rejection, and so you've got to be willing to chase for it.
I like this of hustle. I mean, I actually think PR is about hustle constant. What I mean by hustle consistency, constantly being consistent with your story, assuming that whatever it is you're trying to talk about something that they like to talk about or their audience likes to listen to. Take, for me, example, in my Homeland business, when the Reserve Bank governor was increasing interest rates, I know that the audience wanted to thought that was unfair. So we would just continually feed all the media outlets with why we thought it was unfair and why he did not need to do that, and by the way, and not just saying it for the sake of saying, we honestly believed it too, and which meant I was good content to get on there. But like you know, I don't need to do this sort of stuff in my life, but I did it because it's.
A good for my business totally.
But you've got to be prepared to do it.
Yeah, But I mean, you've seen firsthand the benefits of building a profile you know both. You know, like in many different natures, you know, being visible would have a halo effect on the various that you have. And I think you know people to your point before you are wondering about like sensationalism, I think there's like a really fine line there and probably not so much in the say something ridiculously audacious to get the headline. But I think you can say what you want to say in a more enhanced weals.
Yeah, don't be scared to say what needs to be said.
Yeah, absolutely, And I think I think if you particularly the sorts of people that I want to work with there, they are cage rattlers. They they are people that see issues in society and they want to create change. So that is definitely kind of part of them o which makes it easier. But I think if you can think of what's what's the current narrative that's happening, what do you disagree with about that, that will really help. So to your point, with the interest rates that you know, you could spot that the conversation was heading in a particular direction, you could come out with the counter narrative or whatever represented the views of the people that you wanted to get in front of you.
And finally, then I think this is an important point. Do you ever explain, or do you explain to your students or people who enroll in your courses and all your clients that one of the things you're going to trade off for this success in publicity is their private life. It's a clear trade off because all of a sudden, if you are successful at it, everybody wants to know. Well, the moment you put a foot wrong, they'll want to talk about that too.
Yeah, totally. I think you know, the nature of celebrity is probably a fair bit further down the line from their startup community building profile around business, so that trade off of private life is probably a bit further away. Yeah. And I also think that in the landscape of like building a visible profile to support your business endeavors is probably a little bit different to maybe doing something that's quite mainstream consumer celebrity media. If that makes sense.
It does. But I was probably more thinking about not so much the media jumping all over you if you make some mistakes, because that is once you get to that. I'm talking about your competitors or people in your cohort, people who thinking themselves will look at her she did this, but she's been talking about that for ages and give them the way you know, LinkedIn and all those things work. You know, you only have to have a thousand followers and then you can bring someone down pretty fast.
Yeah, but also you can you can like cancel culture. I think is a massive problem, and I think we need to move more towards, you know, having difficult coms in a really kind and compassionate way. I loved your conversation with Hannah Ferguson, and I thought that was, you know, to that point. But I guess, like my lens would be, you can change direction on things publicly that you don't have to hold the course on a particular position just because that's where you came from. We're all growing and learning and becoming wiser and making better choices in our lives, and some bad choices as well. But I think how you explain how you changed decision and being public in what the movements and thought processes were, that's how you navigate that. I would hate to think that anyone would become afraid of changing their mind on something because they've previously taken a stance. You know, we're all changing.
That's very interesting because it's quite complicated. Well, it's not complicated as much as it is can become complex when you're building let's call it a brand around yourself. It's it's not all perfect. I mean, like the best example is Trump, you know, probably the biggest brand builder of a personal brand builder that ever that we've ever knowned. You know, he went from a TV guy to becoming the president of the biggest nation in the world at the time. But look at the downside for him. I mean, here's the ultimate example of pr for me in public and publicists and being his own publicist I think, and maybe the best example of the upsides and the downsides. And always he sticks to his guns whether you like him or not. He sticks to his game plan because he's got an objective he must be president again, and he just doesn't care abou anything else. And it's quite amazing, don't I don't know how he sleeps at night with the stuff that's going on in his life. What would you be saying to him actually as his publicist or as his power person.
Oh, I wouldn't be in that game. I don't think I'd be available for that role.
No, But let's say you had to and you're at a bigger organization where you're an employee of that organization. Because I don't mean in terms of his morality or his ethics or what he believes in. I'm not talking about that. But would would you say to him, you're the client, that's the outcome you want to do, stick to your guns and just keep walking forward and use every opportunity as a publicity opportunity. Or would you say to him, maybe his time today to admit you made mirrors and say that you want to make change of yourself.
Yeah, I mean, I think he's a reasonably unique case study to talk it to this conversation, I mean, I think fascinating. Yeah, I just don't think that he would listen to anyone. But what would you say? It doesn't matter personally. I would say, you have to take account for all of the wrongdoings and the missteps. And yeah, absolutely, But again, like me studying like an oil spill at UNI, he is an spill. Yeah, you know, like my recommendations would go and fix everything, stop doing that, go and pay for every bit of damage, apologize, you know like that. It's a totally different approach. So I don't think you can always apply that.
Do you think he'd be able to win over his detractives? So if you did that, my point here is about.
Well, it all comes down to endgame. What are you trying to achieve?
He wants to win election, he wants more voters, so he's got his rusted on voters. They'll always vote for him no matter what. What he wants to do is cut into you know, the Democrats voting or the swinging part of the votes. And I would have thought, I think that if he did a Bob Hawk, you know, and how did I don't know if it's real or not. Really, it's not here to tell these days, but I knew him quite well. He started crying and he came up with this thing about about his transgressions and nowhere near as his transgressions were, nowhere near as allegedly as highous is what Trump has done, but no less he Miakoba. He said, look, I accept what I've done. I'm sorry, I'll never do it again. I'm as sorry for my wife, et cetera, et cetera. And I'll think he won a lot of Australia over and he won the next election.
I think the biggest factor in there would be time like how long have you got? Do you know what I mean? Like, because I feel like if it was for that impending election, I don't think there's enough time to change.
Stay the course way.
People, well, yeah, or just get out of the game.
Because at the end of the day, Because someone many many many many years ago, a guy said to me who was a political advisor for and a speed help me with pr very very early in the stage of wizard. He said, Mark, we're building a brand is like building winning an election. You've got to get people to vote for you. And he said that's he said, So I'm going to help you with what I help the people I help out about winning elections. And he said, it's just really winning vote by vote by vote by vote by person by person. And if I think what you're saying is correct. Today there's an expectation, particularly amongst younger voters, that you own up for what you've done. Yeah, and your compenswite and they'll forgive you.
There's a bit of like radical transparency and radical forgiveness that I think that happens these days. I don't know whether that applies to Trump, using him as an extreme example, but I like, I think that it takes careful thought to really understand what you're comfortable sharing, right, you know, because you're not the only stakeholder there. There's people you may have harmed that come to light through the process. Or you know, it doesn't have to be of that gravity. It might just be that you know, you previously were really pro abortion and you changed your mind on that that you actually have decided you don't want to stand for that anymore.
Whatever the well the opposite way, yeah whatever, the issue is against abortion, but I'm now pro choice.
Yeah cool. And so like something like that, you can really easily explain through how you have become more exposed information, you know, the education that you have taken yourself on a journey of and how that's informed your worldview. There will always be people that don't agree with you, and I just think that it's important to understand that you you have your space. You don't have to be liked and loved by everyone. You know, you need to just find the people that actually matter to you and your couse.
Because it's if I then doll that back this is the last part, but if I dial that back to an individual who's just trying to build their brand on LinkedIn or through very social media's mediums, and it's getting a little bit of blowback in things that they might be saying, both in comments, et cetera. And perhaps they haven't thought through some of the things that they're standing for. And now, and as I said, I'm dialing it back, I agree with you. It's not a big deal. Then to start saying, well, I've been thinking about some of these people that have been hitting up with comments against what I've been talking about, and it doesn't matter what it is, and I've been thinking about it, and effectively, you put yourself in a position to apologize, because I think authenticity for me is about to say, wow, I did know about that curiosity and just cop it sweet and I don't not so much meta coal, but so oh I'm to blame and you don't have to take a bullet in the head. But at the same time, you can be so I didn't realize these things and I'm actually made me think about it.
Yeah, totally, And you see it happen all the time.
That's authenticity to me.
Yeah, but you see that all the time that a crisis, like a well managed crisis turns in an opportunity for change where you can like do something really cool like learn more advocate for a different issue. Yeah, no, I think that's that.
I think that and I think that's in terms of knowing all these little things that you tell people about who go on to your courses and and I presume we've got a website. It's it called what is it called, yeah debt, So I mean someone goes on there, and these little nuances that we're just talking about now, I think they're also important for people to start to recognize too. It's not just I'm sure you just don't take it through, you know, session one, Session two, Sessions three, session four. There's nuances all the way through these things that where they get confused, Well, hang on and I did what exactly what a dead said? But something else has happened, and and there will always be something else.
That happens, always always.
Just people involved, and there are things you can't account for totally.
And that's that's the shit sandwich of PR. Actually. Yeah, you know, you're in between like a client's expectations and like deliverables that you cannot guarantee, and journalists, editors, producers that may or may not be interested in what you're doing, and then may portray things in a light that is, you know, completely outside of your hand. So the biggest thing I always say to anyone that's coming into PR is surrender your ego and surrender your sense of control. So like move with like water through it. Enjoy the process, enjoy the like the highs and lows of it. But don't get too attached.
Don't make it personal.
Yeah, don't get too attached to exactly how it has to be, because near enough is actually probably going to be good enough.
You know, you said something really interested many of years. I'll remember you said the shit sandwich. Many years ago I was saw written on a wall at some James station. This is how far back Aursole was actually catching the train, catching it to Greek dancing school. So I was like fifteen or sixteen, and I remember reading it. I've never forgotten the phrase I said. When it comes to the shit sandwich, the more bread you got, the less shit you eat on that basis allowed to finish.
Off a beautiful image a dead Barry. Thanks very much, thanks for having me.
You're welcome
