This is me eat your podcast, coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to Hunt e podcast, you can't predict anything presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for every hunt first Light Go farther, stay longer, Phil, We're going to see you. Are you okay? You're coming to turn the podcast? Turn the podcast on? Alright? First six? First here Phil? Uh, this morning, my wife was buying tickets for the whole family black panther to know, Oh, for the whole family to go see you in Uh, what's it called Christmas Carol? Christmas Carol? Yeah, Evan, he's a Scrooge. Well I'm not Scrooge, but he's in the play. Yet it's great. What is you? Who are you in? There? A couple of guys play a guy who takes out a predatory loan with Scrooge, gets really really screwed over, and then a guy who remember I don't remember that part. Yeah, it's it's it's in the book. I don't think it's in like any of the movies. You're seeing the Muppets version Michael, where he forgets to act a lot of the times, like the Mumps will start singing and he forgets. He looks like he's lost. He seems so baffled by these puppets around him singing. Yeah, he like totally stops acting for whole songs. Yeah, it's charming. I love it. I didn't like that. So you can play that. Then you come back out and do what. Now, the ghost of Christmas future comes. I'm not the ghost, but he comes and shows like what's going to happen to Scrooge after he dies? And I'm robbing his house, I'm cleaning cleaning it out. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it should be fun. So when I'm there how many minutes? Well, I be how many? How many minutes when I'll be able to like have a chance to yell or heckle or anything. When you're on there, up there, Oh you'll be up there fifty or twenty minutes, maybe, I think. So I'm doing other stuff. Yeah, I'm on stage. Um my little boy's gonna price sleep. That's fine. I fully expected I expect you to sleep as well, which is also I'll be rivet. That's one of my favorite stories. Man, that's good. I like it. I'm excited you're coming, also terrified. I saw a thing one time where it was like Christmas Carol Part two and everybody took horrible advantage of him. This was not like a Dickens story though, just like yeah, like later, and everybody would like manipulate him and tell him lies and sobs stories and con them out of his money and take advantage of his generosity. So scrooges the victim in this sequel comes a victim. Yeah, this sounds bad. I can't remember what I was looking at. What what makes the Christmas Carol one of your favorite stories? Uh? Well, I imagine it being in the same vein as Jimmy Stewart in UM It's a Wonderful Life, which is a great story if you like the story of the making of UM. I don't know if you know, but that production company went bankrupt. It was a huge flop. UM Kappa had been a World War Two veteran came home. UM wanted like desperately to do something positive. They put all their money into it. Everything was horrible, and then the ultimate redemption of it being UM, no one went to it. It was panned by critics, oddly and then now it's an American ritual to watch it every year. But the idea of being able to see your life when you're not around it is kind of an eye opening story. Yeah, so like seeing your life and one Jimmy Stewart sees the world without him around and it's horrible. Um, Scrooge has a face with you know, the life of him not around and yeah, just fine. Yeah, I like that ship man. That's good. Um, I'm excited to go see you. Phil good. You would never lie to me, Steve. How often do you practice every every weekday now on Saturdays? Yeah, it's getting up that final stretch. You put a lot into it. Yeah, that's a cool. A lot of time. He's a song and dance man keeps me off the xbox. How do you rehearse being a robber? You just like, oh, it's so much fun. Look, so I get to kind of ham it up for that scene, Like I put on my like Dick Van Dyke Cockney accent and really really go go next. How does that Cockney accent sound? You'll have to go see the play. Come on, But listening, why are you talking? Who are you talking to while you robbed? Like I I picture robbers being more discreet. Oh, I'm with my my, my buddy. We're robbing it together, ran. So yeah, we're having a little dialog. Yeah that's great. Yeah, I'm excited. It's fun. Um join to us about Garrett Long. What's up, dude? There you go. I'm coming down from a high high. So I'm just like in this very mellow state right now. No, I told Johnnie you'll be chill. Why did you have to tell Johnnie that? Because he's talking about coming down? He said, how crowded is? Its crowded? But my name came up and he said I'd be chill, didn't. I don't think if you guys this guy like me like just talking about stupid ship all the time. You're like, you know, getn't there when you need to get in there and get done. Yeah, I like in this self reflection phase, self reflection, Are you gonna tell us about this high of all highs? Will? Yeah? Crin's here song dance Phil j honest is here, has no idea what we're here to talk about today. He's gonna be in an interviewer role. That's not true. Yeah, I rushed down here. No, you know we're talking about but you're gonna be you don't know the aunts like you're the only one who doesn't know correct no, no, no, correct um seth Morris howdy. And then we have industry over there. I've been on the show Trivia Player. Corey used to be the guy that when you wrote an email in, that was your guy. Yeah not anymore. Yeah easy now talked to a lot of great people. You were always good about sending me the interesting emails. Yeah. Well we're saying on on the show when we say, like, uh, you know, a guy wrote in and then we tell something that happened to him. Corey used to vet all that. Yeah, a lot of a lot of folks didn't make the cut. Gatekeeper Corey makes me wonder what didn't make the cut that I should have known about? Not great stuff? Do you think so? Yeah, but we appreciate everybody writing in. We had a guy right in recently, No, he we had a guy write a great story and recently where he got caught stealing a tree stand and wrote us in about it. He got caught, The guy got the guy he stole tree stand, got caught and wrote us a letter. No, he didn't steal it. Kind of just go listen to the epis. I was there, Yeah, yeah, I got mad that he was surfing ship, not that he took a stand. Wow, what a story. Did he have an accent like Phil? Oh? We didn't. I couldn't tell. M hmm, okay, we gotta do a couple of things. If you listen to Col's weekend Review, you've been getting a weekly synopsis of what are going What is going on with UM? An important piece of legislation that sitting in Washington, d c. Right now called RAWA Recovering America's Wildlife Act. We're gonna get a lesson on UM. It passed the House, so you know we have our like bifurcated legislature where we have how many how many Congressmen? Almost four hundred? Right, maybe more than four hundred, not the personal any congress. Don't look at anybody. Look how close to right I was? What is it? It changes all the time? Last like just Montana's added a seat changes all damn time. It's a moving number. Let me tell you what never changes. The number of senators is fixed at one each state. Having to you all can do a quick civics lesson for Americans younger, younger, folks older. If you don't know, okay, seth, explain to me your young Explain to me how and why? How and why do we have a bifurcated legislature. And what is the difference between the House and Senate. I thought you were giving a lesson if I'm trying to see, I'm trying person that needs that lesson. Uh So to give an equal equal balance. Um, something you get your congressmen, is you get those are rewarded on population. Okay, um? And then every state gets two senators. One might look and be, well, how would a state like I don't mean to pick out Wyoming. Here, you have a state with six people and they sent two senators to d C. And then you have a state. How many people are in California over thirteen million? Is that why Montange just got a senator? Because our population is going no, No, one was thirty nine point to four million. Okay, So do this. Divide that number by two and divide Wyoming's population by two, and notice how skewed it is how much senatorial representation you get in Wyoming. So let's say that half of California's population is twenty million in Wyoming's population in one was five hundred, So divide that by two three thousand. Roughly one million Californians get a Senator and hundred thousand Wyoming wyomings. Here's about here's the really cool thing about being in Wyoming. How many of those people are legal? So pull out the pull out everyone under eighteen. You now shrunk the number way down. Pull out who actually votes. It's like a very small number of individuals sends a person to the Senate in Wyoming, and meanwhile in California they gotta split the same number, but then they get a shipload of representation in Congress, which is doled out by I'm assuming Wyoming has a congressman. Yeah, they would have a congressman. California has a fifty something right. Yeah, there you go, Seth. That make you feel proud to be an American that they thought all this through. So um Rawa back to RABA passed the House and everybody loves it. Um all you know, wildlife people all like it. They all worked on it, and it'll pass the Senate if it votes. But they just don't vote. And we're gonna learn about what rawa is, why it isn't getting across the finish line and what it would take to get across the finish line? From um. Senator Martin Heinrich from New Mexico. Who's been, who's joined us on the show before, so he'll be joining us right now, all right, Senator Martin Heinrich from New Mexico. Layout layout for us real quick, remind everybody what is rawa rawa? How do you guys? What do you like to say? Yeah? I usually call it raka? What is raba and what exactly is the problem? So ra is the recovery in America's Wildlife Act, and it really creates a mechanism for being able to conserve species um all the various species of wildlife that people care about before they get into an emergency room kind of situation. If you think about like the Endangered Species Act, if if a species ends up on the Endangered Species list, there are already so far gone that it's incredibly expensive then really difficult to bring them back from the brink. And this shines a spotlight on all those species that that are nowhere close to being listed but are in decline and gives us a tool to be able to recover them and maintain healthy populations. And who who was on the who's on the hook for it? Financially? You know, what is the money? Where does the money come from? That has always been sort of the rug with this legislation. Uh, And we're in the midst of negotiating that literally as we speak, and I think we're getting close to being able to announce a way to raise the money in a way that doesn't increase the deficit and has both Republican and Democratic support. What is the how long has it been ready to vote on or when you say that you're literally that you're working on it as we speak, Do you mean you're that they're they're finally drafting the final bit of the legislation or what the main portion of the policy has already passed the House and it's also pass the relevant committee in the Senate. UM. So we're very close to being able to get this done. Um most likely because there's not a lot of time left in this Congress. It would be included in the end of year spending package. What were the tell people how it went when in the House? You know, I mean when you factor in total Republican support, Democrats support, we've had really strong Republican support for this legislation. It's been vary bipartisan because it was literally drafted from the ground up with the input of the state wildlife agencies. They're the groups that would implement this legislation. And if you look, if you're looking for something that is like government that is popular, look at your state game and phish agencies and so all of them have a plan in place called the State Wildlife Action Plan with a bunch of species that they just don't have the money to work on um and this bill would really change that dramatically. How does it happen in d C. When there's a there's a bill that has bipartisan support and there's really no doubt that if it came to a vote that it would pass. How does it come to be that you just can't get it up for vote. There's a couple of and eamics at play. One is just a lack of time. If you if you watch the Senate at this point, you'll see things constantly filibustered, and it only takes one person to really gum up the works. So you can have something that has well over sixty votes, as RABA does, and still not be able to get it on the floor and get it past Give me. Is there only one argument against it or is there an argument against it coming from each side? Now? I think I think this is this has been worked on for so long, and it's so bipartisan that I mean, there are there are always a handful of people that will find a reason not to do something. But I think what is really attracted by partisan support about this legislation is if you wait until some species is on the endangered species list. Let's take the monarch butterfly as a great example. It's the monarch where to get listed to morrow, the compliance costs for agriculture all across the Midwest would be in the tens of billions. And we have a tool here where you can you know, if if the Endangered Species Act is like the emergency room, this is like primary care. This is spending a small amount of money early in the process to really maintain the wildlife that does so much for our economy. Yeah, and then also it gets it, you know, taking care of the problem before it's too late helps you avoid the inevitable blood bath that happens when people really have to start sacrificing on behalf of something that's really imperiled. I mean, that's when things get ugly right now. If you look at some of the endangered species battles we've had, we can avoid those and make sure that we're avoiding um, both the political battle and the compliance costs that come with trying to break bring something back from the very brink of extinction. So, uh, when when you I spoke about this the other day, you brought up that you know, we've had our um, we've had midterm elections. It creates turnover, new people coming in priority shifts. You feel that to get this across the finish line, you feel a sense of urgency. Absolutely. I think this is an important window and we have you know, we have our ducks in a row right now. It would be a terrible missed opportunity if we can't get this across the finish line. And I can tell you know, John Dingle, one of the great uh sort of conservation heroes of the House of Representatives, tried to pass very similar legislation multiple times and and came very close. People have been working on this problem for fifty years. We've got an opening right now, and we need to take advantage of it. So what what do you recommend to to listeners who care about wildlife. I want to see these problems addressed early before they become emergencies that are incredibly divisive and expensive. Uh what what do people do to get it that that you guys, get it in front of you and vote on it before the end of the year. I would really recommend people reach out to their member of Congress and both of their senators and say that this is something that's important. And given the breadth of support for this, I mean, all the state agencies support this. You have all of the conservation at hunting groups from the UM, the National Wildlife Foundation to t RCP, to pheasants forever you name it. Go to their websites. Most of them have some sort of alert on their side about how to engage your member of Congress and your senators and say this is important. Let's get this done now. All right, man, we'll get people on it. And Uh, I appreciate you taking the time to come and talk to us. Oh, it's my pleasure. Keep up the great work, all right, everybody that's a senator. Martin Heinrich from New Mexico, UM friend of the show been on a handful of times, Big Hunter, Big Fisherman. He does all the stuff he's supposed to do, Um, and while he's doing that, he really just keeps his eyes peeled on access issues, things that affect hunters and anglers. He is a friend of outdoorsman, Um Martin. Thanks for coming on man, Best luck to you. Always a pleasure, Steve, alright, take care, al right, Everyboddy. This this is this is one of our special hunt recap issues and episodes. And the reason this episode is special and you really ought to listen because it is what I think is the most politically Is this fair to say in terms of elk hunts, is the most politically convoluted, contentious, weird little elk hunt in America America's weirdest little elk hunt. The podcast would be a great title for the podcast. If I was just a dude at home and I was thinking about what listened to and I saw that pop up some bitch, I'd be listening in. Yeah, it sounds kind of like the what's the Reno America's best little horhouse close? I'm talking about what is that movie? Ye? What? I was thinking that what wasn't Reno has a catchphrase that's sort of like America's favorite little big city or something. Yeah, but help me out, Delly parton. Isn't a isn't a movie? Right, that's it's an a music something about a favorite little horhouse. Yeah, best little horrhouse in Texas. Yeah, something like that. I never saw that one. Not familiar good family movie for tonight. Um, what was it? Was the weirdest little elk count in America? Yeah, Okay, we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about actual l COHNT. But first I want to lay I want to lay out why, um, what makes this the weirdest little elk hunt in America? Okay, Yanni, I'm listening. And then and then you can you can ask about like there will come a point where you'd be like, so what was the elk cunning? Like, Yeah, I've heard a lot about this elk hunt ever since I moved here. I know several people that have hunted it, including Garrett. Prior to this one, his grandpa, his great grandpa. Grandpa Garrett pretty much guided him though Grandpa Garrett described his grandpa to me, Okay, I wish I remember the sentence exactly a lifelong public land cow elk killer. Yeah. Yeah. The first twenty five points we saw up there, it was like, should I shoot him, Grandpa, No, it's gonna have six on each side at least. Yeah, he said it was hard for him to get used to the idea of passing up and elk man. He's like, his brow, time's long enough on that bowl. I'm like, god, dang, Yeah, it is a coveted tag. Well, I'll tell you. You wanna know how coveted. Let's go um roll up stats. I first, I'm gonna roll out what it is. So there's a thing called there's a there's a thing called the Buffer Zone UM in Montana and it sits it's it's it's fifty square miles and it kind of straddles the northwest corner of Yelstone National Park. UM. Historically it was like a general unit thing and you can hunt right up to Yellastone Park border and they would now and then have a little bit of a blood bath over there where weather and such would really start forcing elk out of the park. There was a couple of places like this UM. There's one in Gardener They used to call up the firing line was at the shooting line, fire the firing line firing line, because things would just hit a crescendo now and then like a crescendo of elk killing would occur in these places. Um, they then for a while closed this little portion of land to give elk room to move out of the park, disperse a little bit and go about various paths and not be in such a funneled situation. So it'll be like a man a funnel if you will imagine an hour glass. Okay, the buffer zone is the neck on the hour glass. The cone on one side is like the park portions of the park. The cone on the other side is national forests and ranch land you know, at large. And that neck is just this place where a lot of animals come through. And so they closed it to give elk a chance to get out of there and go about either hang tight in the neck of the funnel or take various routes and spread. When when did they close that? What was it? Krins? I told her to find it out, sent a message I try to up. It was nineteen eleven. Nineteen eleven, Yeah, is the where the handgun name comes from. That long ago I had no idea. Yeah, seriously, I thought it was in the sixties and seventies. Now I did like real quick math on that for some stats, there's been in there in the last hundred and twelve years. Man, you should you want to get a job produced in the podcast? Yeah? Where's that on these notes? It's actually not in here, that's all Later Garrett's little noodle, Damn Garrett, good job man. Then well I got a little I got a little factoid for you. When they first opened the buffer zone, how many elk takes? For so decades went by, and then eventually a region three biologists with Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks put some effort and work into creating the buffer zone. Hunt and this gentleman, um, he's still alive. I've emailed with him. This gentleman brought up, you know, we got hundreds of elk coming through here and winnering and whatnot. Is it really gonna hurt anything if a few guys take a poke? Great question. And so they started issuing some tags, and for long it was four and then it became five this year. Has it ever been more than five? I don't believe. So, I haven't seen any mention. I know, and so they shut it down in nineteen eleven. When did they reopen it? Not just recently two three They started talking about in two thousand three, but opening two thousand. This guy is just like nobody likes to show off. That's great that you think that when he dies, the gonna mount him and hang that fishing game. Gart longs passed gar Long passed nab Long Long Creek's amazing trail. Speaking of getting mounted at fishing game, I don't want to give it to the details because I don't know if this is true, but I think this is true. There's a guy like I'm sure it's true, but I know it's true because I've even seen where it happened. I've seen it and I've seen where it happened, and I had the whole thing explained to me. There was a feller that has a plane, his own private plane. One time he sees a giant mule deer on a someone's ranch land. Do you know the story? Just shaking my head because lands, the plane kills the mule deer, gets in trouble. The mule deer gets confiscated, and it hangs in a regional It hangs in a regional fishing game headquarters. On occasion, the gentleman who got it will still take his friends down to show him there was there was another story. Just that's the story I heard. He still was like, let me take it down. Didn't we have another story? You had another story just like that where someone got busted and would take friends down to fishing game. That's it, that's the one I never remember. The plane part. Yeah, yeah, that's the story. Um so last year twelve is he bringing out a couple of beers. I was like, yo, mine, i gonna put some camp chairs and ship and I've had like a little fake campfire I'd like to set. His man cave has hours like, well, we gotta be out here by five. Boy, thinking about having everybody over, but it's at four o'clock on Monday, not at my house. Um. The so the buffer zone, what year did it come in? Okay? So it came in two thousand five. Um, and you know people really want to hunt the buffer zone. They had twelve thousand people applied for the buffer zone permit. That was one five got it. So you might be like, well, what astounding odds? And it is it's astounding odds. But keep this little detail of mine. Um. We've explain bonus points thousand times. I'll do a real quick rundown again. Oftentimes, as in the case of the buffer zone, which is an extreme version, the demand um for a specific hunt um is greater than the supply. Right, So we all know that if you live in pretty much anywhere in America that has white tailed deer, Let's say you live in um, New York State, anyone that anyone that legally can't go down and buy a deer license, you just go deer hunting. The amount of deer tag sold is like has a lot to it. How many people wanted one? There's no cap, there's never a point which they like, you cannot have a deer take um. But you take something like big horn sheep for instance. Hell, everybody like to go hunt in big horn sheep with aren't that many big horn sheeps. So you need to allocate the permits, and they do it generally. There are notable exceptions, UM, which we've covered in the past. Generally, it's a democratic it's they're allocated democratically, meaning you have a lottery, you have a raffle draw um, a lot of states were reward return customers. So every year that if you throw your hat in the ring and you you enter a tag lottery and you don't win, you get what's called a bonus point or a preference point. In Montana, UM, they they square your preference points. So they used to not do this. So if you had two points, your names in the hat twice, if you have three points, your names in the hat three times. Um, some years element how long ago it was less than ten years ago, they started to square your points. Meaning if you're going in with I have never drawn a special Elk tag in Montana in my life. I don't know how. I had a shipload of bonus points. So your name might be in the hat four hundred times if you've got twenty bonus points, which is how long they've been doing the bonus point system. Roughly, Um, you're going with twenty bonus points is twenty times. Twenty people applied, but a lot of them their names only and once, and some of them their names in the hat four hundred times, So it's not like that crazy, but it's still crazy to draw it. Well, yeah, because you still have other people in there that have their name in the four hund Yeah, you're not the only one for sure. It's to the point where people would when I drew it, people would congratulate me as though I had a baby. Oh yeah, they'd call you congratulations. I mean I felt like we had a moment on the phone right when you drew it and you called me. It was like I think it was. I thought it was like I thought they'd made a mistake. You're like refreshing it. Yeah, oh yeah, I texted you when I found out. I was pissed. Yeah that was your response. Garrett was happy you were pissed. Yeah, really shows you know, different ways you can go out through life. It's Christmas. I was happy because he wanted it. Well, you know, some of these coveted tags might need to be restricted to Montana natives one of these things. That's a good idea, don't you think that's a good idea, great idea. I could get on board with that. But I was happy before you right away. I was like, God it out of state here. You know, I wouldn't even if that happened on some things, that'd be like, yeah, whatever, that's fine, I won't be pissed. Um, that's a good idea, especially now that I did it. No, that got mine. Here's where, Here's where the thing get Here's where the tag is tricky, contentious, So there are certain access issues. Um, try to picture in your mind, close your eyes, and picture in your mind's eye that you have trying to think of how you explain this Yellowston National Park where you're hunting. The border of Yellowston National Park is a river. Okay, it's the upper Galloton River. If you're facing we're gonna do this where you're facing upstream looking into the park. So you're you're fit, You're you're you're facing south, look king upstream on the Galatain River into the park, and you're on a highway. It just so happens that the highway is not down the center of the river. The highways off to the side of the river. Right. The highway sits to the east of the river. But the park border is the river. So you have a little strip of ground between the edge of the highway in the edge of the river because the highway parallels the river. So picture this you have. It could be thirty yards mm hmm, it could be two yards. Where you would leave the road and need to is this. How clear is this to someone who doesn't when I'm talking about No, it's good. I got it, I got it. Okay, lay your hand down flat, listeners, lay your hand down flat. This is perfect. Lay your left hand down flat on the ground. Unless you're driving. Then just look at your fingers. Okay, now, never mind, okay, never mind your pinky and your thumb. We're only focused on your three middle fingers, which are laid flat on the ground on the table. Your index finger, of your your yelso, National Park is off your fingernails, your this is your left hand land flat. You don't have a thumb and pinky. Your index finger is the highway. Your middle finger is the upper Gallanton River. Your ring finger is public land. You need to get from your pointer finger to your ring finger right now. At a time that was illegal m hm, because you couldn't have a gun in the park. Right This is where the story gets interested. I couldn't have a gun in the park. I was shocked to hear what president signed the legislation that made it that you could have a gun in the park. It starts with the oh and ends in Obama. People in the press were not happy. Corin't read that line from that that headline you found her that that line that lays out So once they made it that you could cross through the park with guns, here's how I was described in the newspaper article. Well, I mean it's like it was all over mainstream media, right, so ABC, NBC, I mean anywhere you guys get but give the new realities. But um so which source this comes? Okay? So this was just an ABC News article from February. Hikers in the Grand Canyon, visitors to Old Faithful in anyone else sleeping at hundreds of National park campsites across the country might now be surrounded by other tourists carrying shotguns or rifles. Surrounded, surrounded. This is like, thanks to a new law that took effect today, they got us surrounded. Thanks to it is now legal to carry loaded guns into our national parks. So they did that, which made it now once you could do this, you could now with a gun, cross your middle finger back to the hand on the ground. You could take a gun on the highway for wearing Hunter's orange. And just as I can tell you for personal experience, now this causes some constant asian with motorists because they know they've just passed a huge sign that says Yellowstone National Park and then lo and behold, what do we have here? A bunch of rednecks wearing their crazy ass orange clothes with guns look doing what looks a hell of a lot like going hunting. And they hit the brakes, they slow down and they look and it is not a friendly look. It's a what and Sam hill And they're like, I need to report this. These people are blazing. People are blazing surrounding me. Did it get reported on often? I don't know, but judging by the part, let me continue my story because it gets better. It gets better. What that left off, though, was that left off archery equipment. So for a while like no, okay, the the idea that you can cross the park with a gun is no longer contested. The Park Service don't like it. You can tell the park rangers hate it. They don't like it none. But there's nothing you can do about it. Some years ago, though, they had to take on the issue of archery equipment. And if you draw the buffer zone tag and you get to calling around, you will not get a straight answer from anyone about what the situation is with archery equipment. It is very similar to if you happen to be a hunter from Missouri and you wanted to go corner crossing and Wyoming, and you talked to a lot of different law enforcement people who all told you it was okay up until you got arrested by one of them, until you got arrested by the one that told you was okay. Right. It's like, no one will give you the straight answer on archer equipment. But where's the lock ran that they had? What is the wording for the law? I know by heart, I don't need If you just pull up the year why I say it some years ago for archery? Yep? What year do they address it with archery? Because it's like a little weird. You can have a gun there, but you can't have a bow there or a cross boat. For a while, you it was the way they were reading the rules. You had to disassemble your boat. You couldn't have an assembled boat. Then they made it no, Yeah, why are you yawning? This is fascinating. What do they mean by disassembled? Assembled? People think it means if it's a if it's a stick boat, just take the string off. If it's a compound boat. You gotta have a bow press to put it back together once you crossed the park. Like, I know the law, I know it now, but I'm more I'm trying to paint the picture of how you cannot get a straight answer. And I got a great story from a guy that had to take a couple of years ago. So what year was? They said you can cross the ark with a unloaded And then I asked, like, what does unloaded mean? It means you don't have an arrow in it. Okay, not like just it's just like you know, it's unloaded, there's not an arrow in it. You can cross the park with a boat if if it was impossible or otherwise impractical to get to that location by other means impossible or otherwise impractical. Right, there's so much room for interpretation. A friend of mine in law enforcement, when I was discussing with him the other day, he says, Man, the minute you throw a word like impractical into a law, you have just opened up the floodgates. He says. No person in law enforcement, he says, wants to see the words impractical. The hell does that mean? Well, this same individual years ago, a couple not years ago, a couple of years ago drew the buffer zone tag, and if you call the park Service, the Park Service will tell you that you can't cross that little strip with a bow. They'll say you have to go. It's about a nine mile trip to get back into some of these areas by horse, some of the areas, some of the areas now here listen to this too, though, Well, no, to get to the to get to the area that's like that people would want to go hunt for archery if they had the buffer zone tag is nine miles from a trailhead, and then you wind up a few d yards from the road. So you're doing a nine mile trip to wind up a few hundred yards from the road. Because you cannot recover game across the park anyways. So it opens up this thing that you could go in with a gun or go in with a bow, which we'll get to. But if you kill elk, you can't retrieve it across the park. You have to find another way out of there. Okay. So this individual that I know had a plan. He's got he's got access to horses. He's like, oh no, if I kill one, if I crossed the little strip with my bow and kill one. I'm gonna go get my horses. He's gonna go get his buddies horses and these ride nine miles and get the damn Elk fully plans on it where he runs into a park ranger from a Yellowstone park ranger. Park ranger says, if I catch you doing that, I'm gonna write you a ticket. He says, Man, I just got off the phone with the people in Washington, d C. About how that rule be interpreted. I also brought it up. I brought it up with with Fosburgh, President and CEO of Theater Rose about conservation partnership. Not an Elk hunter doesn't put in for the buffer zone tag has zero skin in the game. He was. He basically was like he remembered, he remembered working on codifying the legislation around this, and he said, hold on, Mante, there's an argument about other it would be impractical to walk a couple hundred yards versus a nine mile trip. He's like, I'd love to see someone make that case. Anyways, This ranger that was, that was I don't want to use the word harassing. This ranger that was, yeah, I don't know, semi harassing. A friend of mine was putting it that. His interpretation was that's not impractical. I had a person from the National Park come and check my license a couple of days ago. I said to him after he checked my license, I didn't know. I didn't know they could do that apparently. I mean, you can't help the park anyway, So I don't know what it has to do with him, but check my license. I then said, sir Um, I got a question for you, and listen both seasons over and I'll never have this tag again. This has nothing to do with me. I'm just curious what's your read on the law. And he didn't want to answer it. He wanted to have like an ethical he he wanted to have an ethical conversation with me Um. He felt that this tag is meant for the kind of person who would want to go nine miles. Oh give that a lot of people now just want that easy hunt. He said, no offense to anyone here, but they just want that easy hunt for Instagram. No, he brought it up, that easy hunt for Instagram. Yeah, with the odds against him, five people getting it, it burns their ass so bad that they could have a dude, that they could have a dude crossing that little chunk of park to go hunting. It tears them up. And then he kind of tried to be a little bit misleading to you on how to get to some other else. I was looking at, we were looking at, we weren't looking at. We're looking up a mountain um not too far above us. And we're standing there in waiters okay, And he's like, you guys, got your eyes on the bulls we had we were watching when we're trying to see if we can find him again. And he said, oh, so you'll go around to a trail. There's a trail a few miles down, So you'll go around into that trail and take that trail up in there. And I'm staying there at chess waiters said, no, we're across the river. Zero reply. So it's it's contentious, like they don't like they really zero interesting to that. And then did you go across the river? Oh? And my friend a couple of years ago, he hunted the piss off with his bow walking across. I think I never got a citation because he's like he because he like I said, he called d C. He's like, I'm not, I don't want to deal with any I don't want to deal with the ranger there. I want to just call the National Park Service and get their take on it. I don't want to have it be I don't want to have someone like interpreting what this means, because I just want to know the truth. Once I knew the truth, there's no thing an individual is going to tell me there, because I knew the truth and I was more than ready to hash this out with them in a court if I needed to. M hmm, sounds like a great hunt so far. Okay, let's look at the flip side though. The first day we're there, we saw twenty seven bulls or something like that. First five minutes we were there, we saw hard hunt for video because he can't. He can't. You can't, you can't, you can't. Even so we even looked into this, like, you know, there's like certain right away stuff, um like normal you can film off a road, you know, but when the park owns both sides of the road, you can't, like you can't use in it. You can't film anything like that, right, you can't be on that road filming off the It's it's strict permission. Yeah, even this guy weirdly too, knew like he knew even though he's with NPS. He knew where we had film permits. Asked me, and before I could answer, he told me, huh, hey, there's some weird information sharing that needs to happen. Well, they've been sharing it. No, it was weird because he asked me a question, but I didn't get a chance to answer it. I was bummed out because then he told me the answer. It was so he was setting you up for a gotchair. I want to know, like, I'd love to have to do a Freedom of Information Act to get the body cam conversation. It was such an interesting conversation, especially when I got shamed, and I was getting shamed a little bit. I would love to have the body cam conversation to be like, this isn't interesting, just play. The conversation was he was he shaming you about being skinny? No? No, no, no, he he has like a body camera. No. I didn't get body shame. No. It was like it was like that this hunts. You know, this hunt's kind of for people. What you mean you mean how there's like two ft of snow and it's negative thirty degrees and and and you're not gonna like go up Skyline Ridge. He had he had mentioned how there was another tag holder that killed a bowl far In did everything, he did it the right way. And then you know what I had to point out to him it was two people that had they had party tags, and so he's talking about one of the people in the party. I had to point out to him, Oh, you know, right now, while you're telling me this, those two individuals are right down the road with waiters on, like literally right now. The guys that did it right, did everything right, they're down there in waiters. And it's not like that's just what we wanted to hunt was right by the river either. I mean, if I was a buffalo hunter, I'd go where the buffalo are. That's where the buffalo are. And we tried to make it as hard as we could, like we we we were all over them place. Yeah, we were way back there. There just wasn't any out there. But it's but it's neither here nor there. It's like you get you it's called the buffer zone. What is it? Buffer? A buffers Yelso National Park with the surrounding National Forest, And it's kind of like hate, the hate, the game, not the player, Like I had zero to do with instituting the buffer zone, right, Like, I'm sorry, I didn't know that it was such a problem. I applied for a thing that my state is handing out. He's just trying to do everything. I'm doing everything. I've done exhaustive research. I don't understand the problem. Someone feels away about it. I wonder if there's any park rangers that are hunters down there. There's He didn't like, he didn't. He didn't in any way threaten, he didn't. It was just but it wasn't like, hey, guys, no, welcome to the yesterday. It's just weird. So anyways, on the That's all I gotta say about the Have you covered the contentiousness of the issue, like it's Disneyland Welcome to the Buffer Yeah, it should be like you jumped through all the hurdles and preference points and basically got one in almost dred entries. You went a prize welcome zero to complain about. I just like, it's like, I've just take the older I get, the more I'm interested in things that that. I'm like, how is this not just that everybody agrees on what the issue is such as the corner, like with the corner across the thing. I would just like to see it clarify in the courts. How is there a question mark over Something's like, how do multiple states not know whether or not they can't agree on whether or not something is legal? And to have it be that you can ask ten different people and get ten different answers about one you can you can't do when you hunt the buffer zone is insane. You think they'd be like a pamphlet. Yeah, like a um ALL agency alert, you know what I mean? Just like the letter we got from Alaska efficient game before we went to a fog knack, like it, heads up, that's what you're going to deal with. You think this is how you deal with They said, you're if you kill elk. Well, first, it's like it's hard. If you kill elk, the carcass will get confiscated by a bear. And it's like, here's what's up. When I drew the d I four or five four bison permit in Alaska, they send you a letter. The letter basically says, you drew this, but you're kind of screwed. Here's the deal, HM, And they lay it out. Access issues blah blah blah blah, historic problems. Um, there was a there was a Boa State biologist that also another hunter. I know that they warned the other hunter of what just what I'm talking about a chili reception, a chili reception from the park that was that was me? Oh that was you. Yeah, Oh I was warned. I was worn before my when my grandpa drew the tag, I called one of the biologists and uh, they told me, like it was known, you don't heckled is the wrong word, but you'd get misleading information, just like him asking if you're going to go around the trail to go to the elk instead of right at him through the river. Uh. That person warned me that that was like it was a very contentious. And then I think you were talking about too, about people that were watching elk that were bought ready to cross out of the park and they'd have like company to watch them. Yeah, yeah, to help them interpret whether or not, like oh is that really far enough? Like is it going to go back in? Like just making them nervous? Man, which that that's like I think the most irritating thing about is it's it's just trying to make you feel uncomfortable with the thing that you're not doing anything wrong about. Yeah, it's like borderline harder harassment. Yeah, kind of leaves you feeling that way. But I can't, I can't good conscience go that far. But it's something. It's something. Yeah, I think there's a way to handle. Like I like to imagine, um. I like to imagine myself in that role, and that I would have come up and be like, what's going on, guys, Um, everybody having a good time. Here's what's going on. Listen, let's uh, you know, have you got any questions by any this? Let' let's talk with you. I can help you understand where I'm coming from, X, Y, and Z, and just so we can all be not cross wires. Yeah, I mean the point is that people are you know, they're supposed to be enforcing the law, and if you're not breaking any laws, it's not like you're showing up and asking for opinions and weigh ins on you abiding by the law. Well it's funny too, is he knew I was Steve Renelly? Yeah? Of course, before I was even able to identify that I had that I was a tagholder, you knew he's looking for Stephen. It's pretty ballsy guy, pretty ballsy guy looking for Renelli. I loved it. Did that sour things going in? No, because I knew I had heard so many stories about it and and um in preparation for it, like I had even gone to people. Um, I'd even gone to people like trying to understand the law, understand that rules aren't because I didn't want to be in a situation debating it. So No, it didn't because I'm like I knew the law. In fact, Um, I would say this is gonna sound bold ass statement. I would say that I perhaps knew it better, I perhaps more, I had more of an understanding of what actually said than my interlocutor. That's a word for someone you're talking to. So when you crossed in your way, did you turn around to see what his facial experience? I never stepped footing that goddamn river, had never really I think never got to is the better? Maybe we should have? Yeah, we should have never set footing that water. Huh, never went over there. We hunted stuff we had, We hunted out stuff. We spent a lot of time looking, Yeah, across that river, too much time looking, too much time looking across that river. Couldn't help. But look, it's too interesting over there, all right, any what else you need to know? Man, you said you're going to interview, Well, are we gonna do like a are we doing to play by players? It's just Yanni asking us he's going to lead the play by player? Gotcha? You guys were filming? That's correct? Meier season twelve? That's correct? Who'd you have on? Is like actually on camera as your guests? These two? Ye who's nobody can see? Number two over here? Cory and Garrett number one? Who's filming? New guy? And uh? I think you spent some time with him? Bobby, Bobby and Ridge Pounder. Yeah, Bobby saved me on my big run in September at the top of a big, long, nasty climb in the heat of the day. He was sitting there with a backpack full of ice cold water and was like, hey, you want me to dump this on your head? It was like, Bobby, where did you come from? Yes? No, I mean he was hanging there. He I mean, he's done the race of Bunch and so he knows that when you're coming out of this climb and you finally get up on the service road that you're you're, you're you know, you're wondering who you are and why you're there, and uh, a little cold water can do person something good. Um, that explains he was having not much. We're going through a lot of snow and a lot of miles at times. He didn't seem to change tune. No, he's pretty wrong mountain runner kind of fellow. But that's good. Sounds like a good crew. And Sam Bass with you too, Sam basis there? Good? Good? Now that tag was the season was open? How long? Six weeks archery, six weeks agone okay, and you hadn't stepped footing there until the final two weeks. I was gonna bow hunt it with Phelps in the wilderness area where you can't film. But we're just gonna go in there and bow hunt it. And that was our big plan. We got all kinds of time figured out. But then I uh drew an archery or sorry, I drew Idaho firearm mule deer permit and scrapped my plans with Phelps. Canceled on Phelps so I could have best both worlds and hunt. You just draw so many premium tags. That drew two good tags and last year I drew zero. And I'll point out to people I apply for everything everywhere, and I've been added a long time and have accrued a lot of bonus points after a I'm an old man. I'm forty eight years old. I've been applying for ship for a long time and now I'm cashing in. Yeah, your investments. No, it's it's a good for all those people think that it will never happen and it's not worth I think Steve's a prime example. Like you know, we've been doing this together ten years, and I remember when we first started this. We were like I was like, yeah, dude, let's do all of them. Like I was talking to a tag draw a consultant. I can't remember if it was Garth Carter that told me this or Chris denn denhim He maybe it was Chris Denham from Western Hunter. He had said, if a guy comes to me, he we're talking about tag draws, but we were specifically talking about big horn drawing a big horn permit. He said, if a guy comes to me in his thirties, I'll tell him to get in on the tag draws. It's not too late, and you'll draw one or two big horn tags. If a guy comes to me in the four in his forties, I'll tell him, you might save all the time and hassle and just buy a guided sheep hunt, because you're gonna be at this for years and then by the time you get it you might not be in the physical condition to capitalize on it anyway. So just save yourself all that heartache and just go higher by adult she hunt. Yeah, save the money up and going going to sheep hunt that way, because you're not gonna draw the tag, or you'll draw it when you're aiding. It. Won't do any good. Not to hack on eighty year olds. No, there's some eighty eighty year olds that can pull it off. But I know a bunch of you know guys guide those sort of hunts, you know, hard to draw go hunts, sheep hunts and stuff all over the country, and they often deal with the problem of Okay, you know, George's coming in, he's eighty two, he's got he's got one hunt, like literally, like he's got one trip up the mountain, because after he goes up there, once it comes that comes back down, he's not going up again. So like we have to find the animals when when the opportunity is the best and tips to pull it off. So it is is I mean that I said that often when I had my sheep tag that was so fortunate to draw at forty three, I guess that was. Uh, and have legs to go just cruising around the mountains. You know, Corey, did you encounter that stuff? Corey guided for how many years? Fourteen years? Did you come across stuff like that? Christ Chris still said you had a groove as though you guided for fourteen years. Yeah. Cool, I wonder what that looks like. It looks just the way you carried, just the way you carried around that spotter. He was impressed by how he didn't even have time to like register and someone had said something you already had it in focus about of practice for sure. Yeah. But yeah, I've definitely had those clients, just old timers. It's like, you know, they only have a little bit of steam left. Absolutely. Yeah, do a lot of driving around sometimes or horsebacking whatever, wherever you're at. Yeah, I imagine you know those clients. It's probably those guys that come every year as they get older and older, it's like it's probably hard for them to give it up. Oh yeah, it's like the thing they did every year. You tell Seth just got married because he still fiddles with that ring. I can't um being there some folks, Garrett Core, you can win on this. To some folks who say this is possibly the best ELK tag in the state of Montana, I would say it, I would say, and if not, it's top two or three, well let's let's let's qualify. I would say, I haven't been to all the units, but I would say in terms of bp ms bulls per minute, I don't know how you're gonna like bp ms. You're not gonna beat it without paying for it. Yeah, I'm sure you could get greater bpms at like or whatever, but like for a for public land, for non guided public land hunting, I don't know how you'd get more bp ms. And this is something I mentioned on when we were filming, probably too much. But I think what makes it the best unit is just the amount of bulls that come in there from nowhere, right Like you got the break stuff that everybody likes to do. But I feel like a lot of those bulls are named by everybody around there, and we would just like all of a sudden, a bull like al would show up and he's just this freak bowl. That's just maybe he never came out of the park in his life. And then that like one week, he decided to trot across the line, you know, like you just never know what's Yeah, people might have looked at him, and no one ever looked at him lustily. Yeah, no, you never had a lustful glance his way. And then all of a sudden, like some crazy bull, he doesn't know you just crossed the line. And also when he crossed the line, you're standing there. But it was the other thing. I don't know how far we want to get ahead of ourselves here, but he was still an elk, right Like he got bumped one time and he disappeared for the rest. We never saw get bumped by someone. He got bumped by someone from a couple hundred yards away, probably three yards away. Ran never ever laid eyes in at some bitch again. And we looked, Yeah, I mean look looked because you were looking at him lustily. He had a hand. He had a freak hand. Back to your hand, imagine you had an elk and then your hand is made out of antler and it's glued to the back of his beam. He was a five by eleven well because he had this freak growth like a growth being being that you applied for nearly twenty years one of those coming at tags in the state, but I never applied for that was the first time I applied for SILL apply for different units, sure, but still you put a lot of time in affter you applying for trophy units. I've always there's been four I applied for it, and this is the first time I tried this one. Did you feel the pressure of having such a coveted tag? Yes? Absolutely, absolutely changed. It changed everything. M hm. How did it manifest? It manifested like this? We kept telling ourselves we'd be like, um, you know, like Garrett and his grandfather's footsteps is a publicly and cow killer. It's like, you don't you know, if you're out on the national forest and you see a bull, there's something to get excited about. You're like, you know, during general firearm to be you know, two and then to be like, oh there's eight, just just five little sixes in range here. It's like just it's just different. Do you remember when we had the guy that killed the biggest white tail in America. Uh uh huff the huff buck killed. The buck falls the Indiana state record might being the biggest typical white tail ever killed in the US. That night, like, up until that day, he was trying to get a personal best. His goal every year is to get a personal best, and I think he thought if he could get like a hundred thirty five inch buck the personal best, that's what he was out in the woods for and kills it to something two inch buck. At the end of that podcast, I said to him, so what now with the personal best deal? He goes, I go back to the day before I killed that buck that never happened. We had a lot of conversations about um that, you know, like just reminding yourself just how unreal it is. Yeah, yeah, reminding yourself hunt real is and being like joking about can you believe that we would have the audacity to be like stupid six points? Yeah, it was like the first night was that he was like mid three twenties bowl Corey got on his on his phone scope there and we were like, I'm not worth going back there. I didn't see any interesting back, right, So you passed up how many and how big. Well, there's like I like, I was like when people say like I passed up a blank, I'm I was like, meaning meaning what you saw it and didn't go after it? It was in range after like it didn't it didn't you know, get you excited enough to be like, Okay, we're gonna put some effort to close the gap between where we are in that ball. If we were market hunters back in the old days, market hunters, I don't know, we could have killed a lot of balls. I mean the one night Corey was down by the river, he saw seventeen and that same night and this is just bulls that same night what we saw fourteen. We've seen a lot of cows to some some some bands. Yeah, I should I take that back. Yes, more than I expected to see you for sure. Yeah, you see some cows. Bands of cows, not like you know, not like like two packs, but but probably the biggest group. I mean, maybe in excess of a dozen. Um. Yeah, I think like they'd have little spikes with them and stuff, you know, with all these bowls. One of the hardest things. We talked about it a lot. Um Yanni, you and I have talked about this cou's hunting. How like you always think the biggest couse deer is at the top of the mountain. M hmm um. Effort, yeah, effort to size ratio, Like it didn't mean anything. So we kept thinking, like, oh, we gotta get to that like isolated far back spot. You had to hike for the dangers. Yeah, exactly, the big ones if you if you got two and a half miles in the trail ahead, you can see a bunch of dingers, remember the big bulls to go up in the mountains. And remember I saw that single track way up high in the mountain in the deep snow, Like, that's gotta be a giant. No. I was laughing about that. I think with Johnny, I was like, how could something that far away be small? Yeah, it has to be big. It was that far away. I think it was al so yeah, um some of that. So the only other bowl before you killed yours that you were lustly looking after was this was this weird awl there was I was lusty for four balls. I was lusty for four What prohibited you from greed? Greed and lust? Available time? We got there one day. The day we got there, we got there at at daybreak, the morning version of dusk by the time we were actually dawn. Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. I'm not kidney man, I'm not kiding you that I think I'm right when I say this. The biggest, probably maybe the biggest bull we saw, was the first bull we saw. It would have required a little what in that spot? How far to get off? No, you wouldn't. You didn't. There wasn't. It was a straight shot. You could have walked, You could have stepped legal the legal distance off the center of the road and shot and shot. He was like sparring his buddy a couple of what he was I don't know, maybe two hundred yards under three hundred yards. And my thought was, if that son of a bitch is standing there, imagine how big of the one that must be behind us. And that set us down a strange path. You know. That happened to me a little bit in Lavia, which we'll get to it another time, but it happened to the other day. When I parked to go deer hunting. I got I got as where I was gonna park on private to go hunt some public but I mean I was literally like on the fence where I parked, and as I'm in the car sort of fiddling around, two dolls walk within rifle range across a little meadow into the woods. I get out, put my pack on and I'm literally grabbing my gun out of the back seat and I look back up the hill and there's a nice eight point buck and like, without having any effort invested, it just didn't feel right. And the same thing happened to me in Latvia, where I had an opportunity. It was so early in the hunt. I was unfamiliar with the land, the woods, the habitat, the animals, and just didn't have the girl in here at all. And I'm sure that you probably had a little bit of that too, That first moment where you're like, oh, well, there's a giant but and you don't want it to end. You want felt totally weird. It would have felt totally weird. What what also got us, though, is how how trackable what they were A man like that bowl was two yards the second day from where we saw him on the first day, and then the next day he was in the same exact spot, Like it almost just seemed like they're always gonna be there now I'd always heard it was kind of a migration hunt, where like every day or possibly you're gonna have critters coming out of the park because there's cold weather and snow up higher in the park, they're moving. Did you guys see that that remains? We got there right after a severe weather event, meaning onset of a severe cold snap, a bunch of snow and stuff. Had a stirred up feeling about it, Okay, just weird stuff, but then it stabilized, very clear skies, no precipitation, extraordinarily cold, like we are. The coldest morning we hunt, it was negative twenty nine. We spent whole days in negatives, crept up in like nine or ten or whatever. But like and then it just everything just that frenetic craziness seemed to pass. They did seem like there was like new stuff, you know, I don't know that was my perception anyways, You're like, how could there be this many tracks in brand new snow? Felt feeling about it, you know, like what in the helm hast been going on here to make that number of tracks and snow that hasn't been here forty eight hours? It's like, how could that be possible? And that definitely seemed to chill, but like it was like a wave of stuff happened and then it stabilized. Just very cold. We had that suit. You know what was interesting that negative morning. We were looking at elk at night and the next morning was negative twenty nine, and we were able to find all those elk and they were like six ft away from where we found. There's like they that they didn't they didn't strike out in that. They seem to be like, I'm just hunered. Yeah, here feeding. They didn't seem to shuffle and that and that extreme cold. It was like they just they they for whatever reason, they seem to conserve energy. I'm where, I'm not doing some crazy exploration right now. A negative negative weather, Yeah, they can't afford to stop eating right there. I remember kind of getting excited for that cold weather and then realizing that it wasn't helpful. Everything seemed to stop. I was in my mind, I was thinking, oh, this cold snap, those bulls are gonna have to move all night long, Like they're just gonna be in the park and be like I'm getting to greener pastures tonight because it's cold. But that's not what happened. I think it was by the third By the third day, I think we saw the last new bowl of significance. Yeah. Whatever day, weird Al showed up. We're you ever glassing into the park. Oh yeah, we wouldn't. We wouldn't pour the coals to it, but we would look in there and sea bowls in there. He saw, he's I didn't see it, but he saw far and away. When he said far and away, the biggest bull was in a drainage. He cut Sam and I we went up into an area and and then he cut down and went down this drain the drainage down through the park and he saw a tanker there was he was with fourteen, He was with thirteen other bulls in there. Yeah. We we walked out what it was like one o'clock, I think, and Sam and I would only pull up glass if we could see something with our naked eye, pretty much, and we saw twenty bowls walking out of there, one group of fourteen and yeah, man, like a straight six three eight class bowl in there. That just blew my mind. Wow, Yeah, just good. A little video. No we didn't get a video of and we didn't have a spot or with us, but you know that big landscape called Yellows a National Park got in the way Steve going in there. Yeah, uh, well, I guess to tell me about the one that you did crack in the end. I want to talk about something different first. Well, I'll tell you two interesting things. Um, we're the whole time wondering like a negative twenty nine and then the snow was up to the mid middle of your shin not I don't want to devide, wasn't need you, snow was shin deep snow. And then and then that was the lowest temperatures negative twenty nine, but there was a It was always at least negative ten in the mornings, cold mornings, and we kept thinking, are the grit like, what do the grizzly bears do? Like they gotta go? They don't. They're out wandering around just freezing their little feet off. Can you imagine what that must feel like they're out freezing her asses. I'm I'm I'm anthropomorphizing. I don't know if they're cold. It just seemed like a bad what are you surprised they weren't in their little dans even if they're gonna get back out again later when it warms up. Yeah, there's out pounding the pavement. Do you saw quite a few? No? I saw one track in one bear just cruising. One day we're on the highway and Garrett sees a bunch of where all these kinds of stuff was crossing the road and he just stops and looks in his headlights, thinking it's all elk tracks. But it's all wolf tracks. And that day we're gonna do a big hike up of drainage and get on that drainage and wolf tracks just crisscrossing everywhere. But eventually the wolf tracks all lying out and they're just going down the trail round. I mean, it's like it looks like sled dogs going on. It looks like a dog park, like just insane amount tracks, big old beautiful ship pile pissing on stage bushes. You could have got down and ate that pistone wolf wolf piston. He could have. I seriously, I'm like, what you could. I seriously thought about eating that wolf pistol. I don't know about smelling it for the power. Yeah, you might get some pot kind of power out of it. See what they're lifting their little legs and we're going, going, going, And I started getting I just started to be like, we are going to see because there's a bunch of elk up here. We're gonna see him in Lo and behold on a far away ridge. There they were m h. Garrett took a poke. Yeah, here's the thing. It's killing me. Well, no, it shouldn't. I had always said to Garrett when we were talking about he's gonna come with, I had said, you can you know, each had a wolf tap. But I'm like, if you see a wolf, but your crack. And he didn't grab his his precision, his own personal precision long range rifle which he shoots competitively with, and you know it's real well like an extension of his hand back to your hand again. Yeah. I think the disappointing part about it is I was having an argument with myself walking up the trail about go because we got on the trail and what it was within fifty yards were on those tracks again, and we're walking up the trail and I'm like, it's the trucks right there. All you gotta do is turn around and go grab that gun. But man, I've also borrowed my gun to people and have a miss stuff and then blame the gun be like, oh no, I was on him. So I don't want to even pull that argument like that I used your gun and shot Yeah, Like I don't. I don't. I don't want to go there. I think what I'm what eats me the most is just when you've hunted enough and you've shot enough, you think that you can detach from the emotion side of it a little bit, where you can be like, no, I probably shouldn't take this shot, or I should probably maneuver to get a little closer we're getting. Yeah, maybe if I would listen to you. Um, But I think that's what gets me the most is instead of doing that where I like could detach a little bit, I was just it was a wolf man. I've been chasing wolves ever since you could buy a wolf tag, and it's just like I gotta take somebody else's gun at a range it's probably a little bit too far, and had had to do it. M hm oh man, yeah, clean, miss fun, very clean. Miss watched him for a long time after he ran well, yeah, scared him. Yeah, so does that that's fun? M core. You haven't said a whole hell a lot where you at on this whole thing. Oh, just still reliving it. I mean we just got back today, so you know, like Garrett said earlier, just coming down from the high. But you've haunted us some, You've you've guided us some premier ELK locations. Yeah. Did it feel different for you? No, it felt very similar. I mean passing up it felt like what it feels like hot guiding that premier ELK location. Yeah, passing up world class once in a lifetime, elp to hopefully see something bigger and then hopefully keeping those big bowls in your back pocket to come back later. But a lot of times it doesn't pan out like that. So did it live up to the hype? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I mean if you want to, yeah, if you want to look at a tune of bulls and I do. I was talking to Jake about that because after I don't know if you were already shown in pictures, we were getting a lot of pictures those of us that weren't on the hunt from Steve. I mean, like, how much how big is this one? Score this one? I'll figure the fifth on this one. I told, I said, Jake probably like to play this game too, So I don't know if and uh he said that he haunted it like four or five years ago with a buddy had the tag and he said it was the best hunt ever. They spent like almost thirty days in there and just had unbelievable bugling. It's just some people think that the guarantee is not the four Bowl. The guarantee is seeing a lot of bills and to go in there every day and be like, oh, let's just start cow calling and just be almost guarantee, call in after calling, after calling. I mean, that's why our buddy j likes to hunt on some of these ranches like where he used to guide. Is like, you ain't gotta go days without seeing an elk or whatever. She's like, you step out of the truck and sometimes they buw go into car door shots. You know, you know what you know. Hayden one day said something to me that a little bit listen. It was a tremendous blessing. I had a wonderful time. It was crazy to see all those elk. But here's a here's an issue. Hayden one day said to be something about um that he likes to spend his time exploring replicable experiences mm hmm. Meaning and it's it's like a thing I feel and he put he put a good word to it, meaning you're always looking for like a thing that you can make part of your discipline, that you can make part of your annual cycle. Do you know what I mean? The difference between finding of finding a great fishing spot that you can get to and you understand it. It's like, yeah, man, I've over like take fishing Halibut. Okay, I've got fifteen years into my little Alibi area. And it's a really cool relationship, right to have with the place and to be able to like grow with it and watch it change and be like, oh, I can't believe we used to always go there, and then we realize one day that if you go over there, it's or or if they're not there, go check there. Because and you you established this whole elaborate interplay with something over time, right, and you watch by changes. So to go and do a once in a lifetime situation And I feel this every time it happens to me. You're so thankful to do it, but you go do it and you're already nostalgily, You're already like there's nostalgic is not the right word for it. You're right away get hit by oh I can't go do this again, Like now that I know, i'd he's so interesting to go again, nor would I now know. That's why Garrett had Garretts. They were drawn the damn tag. But he had such a good time because he thought when he was there with his grandpa, he'd never get to do it with someone who could know no offense to your grandpa, someone that was gonna go real fast up the trail because he was come on, Grandpa, come on, yeah, yeah, we gotta go. I was way you know, I was so excited when he do that that tag. But you're right having been in there, man, I was a hundred times more excited when you drew it because it was like, I get to go back to this place that I know a little bit about. The thing is, though, is it's elk hunting, dude, and it's like what I experienced with my grandpa was very different than what you and I experienced as far as where the elk were, how the elk moved. And so maybe that's the takeaway is like, yeah, you're not gonna go in there and hunt it next year, but you learned more about elk because you had so many encounters with that. That was you made that point when and I hadn't even brought up the feeling I get of doing when I get to go have those respects, like when I drew the toke the toke doll sheep tam. It's great, but you're like, man, where's that? Go do that next year? Right, but you'll never do that, you know what I mean. But you were addressing that what I hadn't even brought it up, and you said, like, I'll tell you one thing that being here has impacted how I hunt elk, and that I'm able to watch so many bulls relate they're still elk, right, they still gotta eat and they gotta sleep. They you know, they they come out of the timber um right before dark, they go back into the timber you know, right at daybreak. And you're like, I got to watch how elk be elk to a degree that that would take a lifetime to accumulate that many experiences of watching how bulls be bulls like what they do. And then true, you could go sit there and and then you imagine that you're shrinking it down to where it's a tenth as many a twentieth as many, a thirtieth as many, but you still have in your head like that little timber patch seems like a place. Yeah, little bull wud want to lay in this cold, snowy ass weather. And I bet you when he comes out, he's gonna do this thing. He's gonna do this thing. Yeah, l cutting buddy telling me that he spends his time looking at ten percent of the mountain. M hm, and I you know that's like, we got to see what ten percent of the mountain. Elk live on the river is a little because I would, I would look, I would, I would make a hobby of trying to be like, why can't I ever find a bowl and huge areas and be like, I don't care what you do. You cannot find a bowl and a huge area that I would have thought would be loaded with them. They ain't there right right? And I can tell that because I know we're all the ones that are there are you know, yep, Like no one likes that spot, No elk likes that spot. Yeah it's not always convenient, man, Yeah, you know it's interesting. I like this idea of replicable experiences, but also for me personally, I like, uh because I'm with like, there's nothing better than the second time in the spot where you sort of you got your titilated. The first time you're coming in feeling cocky, you know, like I know where they're gonna be, I know what that hillside looks like, I know where to look. We're not to look the third time. Often I'm kind of like, okay, yeah, and I'm starting to all of a sudden juggle in my head like I would be cool if I was just in a totally different spot, learning new country and just back at ground zero, because I enjoy so much just newness, you know. So Anyways, the boat we got, there's a lot to talk about. Um we Corey spotted it from the highway in a crazy place like up in like rock up in Rock Pile Cliff, not crazy, but steeping up that he had a time off. I saw when you guys were chopping him. The only reason he didn't go down that whole mountain by himself, as he got hung up on his own rack. It was a bull. We had seen a couple of miles away. Probably a couple of miles Yeah, we've seen it a couple miles away. He's very identifiable because he had busted off his he he had big uh big Royals swords fourths, like really impressive like his other times or whatever. But he had he's like just freaking Narwaltuss coming out of his fourths and he had snapped his rack off behind that, So you knew you knew who you're looking at. Um, here's where this gets interesting. We had seen three bulls that looked like they had rubbed the hide on their backs. If you had saw in September, be like, oh he's been he's been wallowing and has dried mud on his back. But it's not September October, right, We're in the mid November. Three of them to have this. And we had talked even about like what is going out that dude's back? Why is he having that problem on his back? Hold that thought because it had been a very cold morning and the sun was just starting to hit the rocks and he was in this cliffy rocky area like you could imagine an area that would have great radiant heat. And I don't know how in the hell Corey sees it. It was like yards above the road we were going sixty two. And it's because it's something not not that the trap, I means, one of the most incredible game spots I've ever seen. But he had come out to sun and was sitting broadside up by a rock, like basking in the sun. Um stock ass still okay, but on his feet not bedded. Keep in mind the ship with the back stuff. Okay. So we turn around and go park at a trailhead and we figure where we could climb up and do it like a ridge to ridge shot. Well, get up there. He's still there. We have a debate about what's up with that bull? Why is he doing that? And at times he's got his eyes closed and he's got his eyes open. We're like, he's like basking in the sun, um and killed him. We get up there, and that stuff on his back, like the hair on his back, you could pull it out in clumps, and he's got a big patch around his mound, around his hump. I later got on the phone with a with a state vat the bulls we were seeing had Maine and she says it's hard for him to keep warm. It can be bad enough where and he was thin, like a big long body, but but he tasted fine. We ate some last night. Just could be curious about it. Um hip bones sticking out, not like small backstraps, small backham smallish back hamp. Just look poor, you know what he looked like. It's like a like a like a milked out dairy cow, that kind of like skeleton here there. Even though like a big heavy rack. He had been feeling frisky enough to snap his to be fighting like built like like a great rack. I'm gonna have a rough rent winter. He's not gonna make the winter. And when I talked to that that she said, I said, well, he was skinny. She said, we see that they can't keep warm and they don't want to bed down, and they're just eating and it takes so much caloric energy. Um. And and it's funny, is that was his that hide there was frozen like wet and frozen. And she said, they're so hungry they can't keep warm. He had gone a couple of miles. Said, they're just on their feet, eating, eating, but they can't keep up with it. And she said, and in a bad winter, it can kill them before they get they can kill him before they get better. I don't think he was gonna live. He didn't have many days left. I don't think he was gonna live. We saw one once when I lived in Colorado. There was a little batch of bulls. There was I don't know, three or four of them. They were up above the hill the house on his hillside, nos Public. We'd watch him every day and one morning I'm laying in bed and I'm looking at him, and I get my glasses out and I can see that he's got like snow on him, and it just snowed like a little dusting. I could see that he's like he's like bedded, but like looks like he's a little leaned over, you know. And that's like finally went got the spot and really looked close. I'm like, man, I think he just perished last night, you know, like we have been watching them the night before. And so Jennifer and I she was actually prego with our first one, and we hike up there real quick, bro saw with us, and uh, sure enough, there he is. Did it as a doornail, and he had that same patch but it wasn't on his mound but right on his hip, but a dinner plate size pass. And uh, when I talked to the and it was late I remember as my brother in law's birthday, which is h Nolah Marsch And uh yeah. The wardens said, yeah, winter weekends and spring kills. When I talked, I, we're bringing a patch that high. We got in touch with the state VAT and they want to we're bringing him a sample the hide so she can take a look at it. Um. She said, we see it. Um, we've been dealing with it for some years. We see a lot of it. She named three or four places where you see a fair bit of it. Tends to hit old bulls m more than house. Um. Yeah, I don't know. And what's funny though, is Zip two shots right through the boiler room on him, and he kept his feet for a long time. He wasn't like unstrong, but at that I mean, it's mid November, man, and he already looks like it's mid November. He looked like what you'd expect him to look like in March. He was gonna make it he's got wolves to deal with. Yeah, I was gonna say, it's an easy wolf snack there, you know, and hanging out in him rock piles like that, he's gonna get cougared. You know. He's just got a lot. There's like there's no way that bull is gonna be alive, and a lot against him, there's no I mean, if you're looking at how and then he's not going to rebuild because it's already everything, he's already covered in snow. He doesn't It came so early. Um, we're coming out of weeks of like unseasonably cold weather. I think that I wouldn't be I mean, people killed a lot of elk this year. I had a lot of elker gun die this year. And then the fact that we saw three balls like that, all big bulls. I wonder we saw that bowl down. When we first saw him, he was down along the creek acting weird, acting weird. And then when Corey spotted him, he was way up high and there was always like an inversion every morning it seemed like where it was. Oh no, he wasn't acting weird. Done by the creek. I think I met that other bull that had that, that had that patch on his home. Oh yeah, that's ex poaint that betted right along the road. He was acting weird. He was in the park, Yeah he was, But I wonder if he went all the way up high. They're just too seek warmer temperatures, you know, because downlong in the creek in the morning was freaking cold. I caught his track. He had been he had been zig zagging up that hill, feeding on you know that some of that some of that snow was Um what's it called when snow melts but doesn't melt. Um, that's what you do when you freeze dry something like the snow sublemates right like go from it just vanishes in the sun. And it happens even below freezing like it sublimates, bakes it off without like around stuff that gets radiant heat around rocks, You'll see it around tree trunks. Um, he was, uh, zigzagging up that feeding on that grass that was melting away from the from the tree trunks that were getting sunlight. But yeah, he might have been going there to get warm. I don't know something I forgot to tell you. Uh, because Corey and I talked to the other tag holders last night. Um, they had videos of that ball that you killed in daily and I don't remember the name they had for him, but there was a goofy name because they had him on their space. They had filmed them in the park and Uh, they that he was just acting goofy like they said that he would just like and they had videos of him. He would just turn around and kick up in the air, like spin around, kick up in the air, and then stand there and stare at the ground and then walk a little further. Like when he was walking, he would like it seemed like he was swaying a bunch and everything. Yeah, just acting goofy. And I can't remember the name they had. It was like they were like, what is up with this well I had and I don't. I don't think they've had it in there. I mean I could. I was just gonna ask about it. I don't think that. It's like talking to the vet about like the hair loss deal. Yeah, And we sat there talking about what was going on with him. Yeah, we contemplated shooting him because it's like, man, is that we played just shooting him for and then being like, hey we shot him, you know, yeah, manage misery issue another tag place. No, I'm good. I'm good when I got It's a beautiful Elk, yeah for sure, but it's crazy area. It's crazy area. I've never seen anything like. I've never seen anything like it. Oh yeah, you can you do with a Yellowstone and go see. Yeah, let's go hang out in Lamar Valley a little bit. Well, it sounds like a good hunt. I'm gonna start applying again. Yeah, we both know a few people that have drawn with a lot less points than you drew. What you need to do is look up with someone it's got twenty points and do a party tag, give me a shout, be careful what you wish for good anything else you gotta wanna tell us about? Any other real highlights. I don't know, it's been fun epic. Man. If you think going in that like that week of hunting that we did, if everyone still had their tags, that would be a different experience. Oh m hm, you know, just like constantly running into the other tag holder, like I couldn't imagine they're being all like all five there would be interesting. If I'm not saying they should do this, be interesting if you broke it out, you made five chunks of time. M h. I mean I could say in archery season though, there's kind of like the bulls are in one spot right now. Archery season they're more spread out the other in a very confined area. No, man, it was I don't know, it was something. It was interesting. You seem a bit sad or down or something. Well, it's been a lot of time thinking about that, and then you know, and then you do it. You do it, and then it's like listen, when I drew that tope doll sheep tag, we had a big chunk of time, square it up, you know, and got it like a beautiful ram real quick. And then I spent five years thinking about if we'd just run those ridges for ten days. I just I don't know, I don't know, like when you when I imagine Sunday, my kids will leave to go off to college, and I'll be real sad, and I'll think about when my when I my Bufford hunt was over. That's why it's nice to live in a state like Montana, where now we can think about dogs for a little bit, and then we got mountain lions coming right on up, and before you know, we'll be thinking about turkeys. And then I got you turkey at Doug Durn's. That's the highlight of my ear. That's a replicable experience. No, it's just suppressing, man, because it's like it was like so exciting, yeah, because you see you know, Yeah, I don't know, man, it's just like it's all part of the thing. It's all part of the experience. I've drawn some incredible permits, and it's like I did a cool hunt and Idaho this year, and I'll like to if I could just go do that all the time, I would give up everything else. Corey and I were at the cabin this morning and we described it as like the day after Christmas. Yeah, yeah, sure, man, it's all part of it. It's like it's exciting to draw it. You're so happy. You do all the research, you find all the people that had it before, you share notes. You're like living for it, you know, and then you pull the trigger. Then all of a sudden you're done. It's just like it's just sad, not in a bad way. It's just it's it's it's it's it's sad and a great way. It's sad and a great way. It's sad and a great way. This one. When I draw the tag, I'll invite you, Steve. I'll need a second set of eyes. It's pretty fun man, you too, Garrett. It's a little sad. Feel sad for me. Philm We make a musical called The Buffer Zone Musical Theater. We have one guy that can sing and dance. We know that I'll play the park ranger. Mr Ronnelly don't want to go that way. Rules as rules. Oh, I don't tell you. One last thing, man, we got a show like if I ever. It's a new show called Dog Justice. I'll tell you about some our time. It's a great show concept. I'm gonna share them with you. I heard about another new show concept. I was the last night at dinner or on this morning, my daughter after we hunted Wisconsin deer Camp this weekend. She got to come for the first time and U she was on a high last night after dinner. She's like, let's play a game of cribice. You know, I'm like cards. She's been playing cards for a while. But just like, yeah, she was in the in the groove, you know. It was all the guys cooled her, even though she's a girl. Yeah, you're worried about that because the old you know, old fellers deer camp. Yeah. Yeah, they had to say a few jokes, you know, maybe under their breath, you know, or look around before they said something. But not for the most part, it was no, I would not. For the most part, it was all great, but she came at me last night or this morning, was like, I got a new show idea me, Jimmy and Ronnella. We'll call it the Next Generation. I love it. Oh? Was she was? Was I the first woman at deer Camp? Yes, that's crazy. Yeah. Over fifty years she'll be running it. Someday, could be she'll be running deer Camp. Yeah. And in a hundred years there might be a guy who was like, I'm the first guy that's been here in fifty years. It's all women. Well he's coming down, Ni. Yeah, you're welcome. That was enjoyable. I'm glad I got to hear the story, you know, full story. So busy these days we often don't get swapped hunting stories fully like that. Yeah, Steve, I've told you before that my favorite shows are the authors and the archaeologists and the historians, UM and I Usually sometimes I'll scroll my phone during the hunting stories. But that was a good show. This one was Are you saying next? I bought tickets to your thing? Yes? Do you get a cart to the door? No comment? All right, thank you everybody. E