Hello, and welcome to Pit Talk, brought to you by Shannons. On today's episode, Oscar Piastre claims his third Grand Prix victory in a Shanghai Sunday cruise, and it's Hero to zero four Ferrari, with Lewis Hamilton winning the sprint, but both cars disqualified from the Grand Prix. My name is Michael Lamonado. It's great to have your company and the company of my co host. He's just got off the phone with Christian Horner and he's next in line for the Red Bull Racing drive. It's Matt Playton.

Hello, and welcome to Pit Talk, brought to you by Shannons. On today's episode, Oscar Piastre claims his third Grand Prix victory in a Shanghai Sunday cruise, and it's Hero to zero four Ferrari, with Lewis Hamilton winning the sprint, but both cars disqualified from the Grand Prix. My name is Michael Lamonado. It's great to have your company and the company of my co host. He's just got off the phone with Christian Horner and he's next in line for the Red Bull Racing drive. It's Matt Playton.

That's actually not too far from the truth, you know. I reckon if I actually picked the phone up and call Christian, perhaps what he's on the set of Drive to Survive so he can pretend he's actually speaking to a driver lock he did with Sergioperus a few series ago. I reckon, I'd be half a chance of being in the top five to get a drive for that team. But yes, that's a topic we'll discuss a little bit later on in this podcast, and a topic we've discussed once or twice before.

That's actually not too far from the truth, you know. I reckon if I actually picked the phone up and call Christian, perhaps what he's on the set of Drive to Survive so he can pretend he's actually speaking to a driver lock he did with Sergioperus a few series ago. I reckon, I'd be half a chance of being in the top five to get a drive for that team. But yes, that's a topic we'll discuss a little bit later on in this podcast, and a topic we've discussed once or twice before.

Yes, well, you at least know you're not last on his list because that place is reserved for Yuki Sonoda.

Yes, well, you at least know you're not last on his list because that place is reserved for Yuki Sonoda.

Or is it home Manu.

Or is it home Manu.

A bit later on we got to start, of course with Oscar Piastre and there is to the Chinese Grand Prix big win for him, not just in the context of where he's increased his victory tally by fifty percent, third win of his career, and not just because it was such a comprehensive weekend. They sort of had to go back and think because he's become such an established driver so quickly that actually, well, first pole position, win from pole, almost led every lap with quite a few laps and pretty much controlled the entire race. But that picture of the championship, and it's way too early to talk about points. Obviously he's now ten points behind Lando Norris. But it's that idea that if this is going to be an all McLaren tidle battle, you definitely don't want to be the driver starting from a long way back, kind of like he did last year when things started to enter that championship winning picture. How important do you think it was for him to claim this victory, And of course a week after the Australia disappointment.

A bit later on we got to start, of course with Oscar Piastre and there is to the Chinese Grand Prix big win for him, not just in the context of where he's increased his victory tally by fifty percent, third win of his career, and not just because it was such a comprehensive weekend. They sort of had to go back and think because he's become such an established driver so quickly that actually, well, first pole position, win from pole, almost led every lap with quite a few laps and pretty much controlled the entire race. But that picture of the championship, and it's way too early to talk about points. Obviously he's now ten points behind Lando Norris. But it's that idea that if this is going to be an all McLaren tidle battle, you definitely don't want to be the driver starting from a long way back, kind of like he did last year when things started to enter that championship winning picture. How important do you think it was for him to claim this victory, And of course a week after the Australia disappointment.

I think it was important to claim the victory for one, I think it was important to claim a victory in this manner. I think because you look at his previous two wins where you know Hungary, there was all of the team with Norris being in front after the pit stop, and as Abaijan he was very attacking and then onto the defensive from Charlote Claire. As we remember last year, we've not had one of these race weekends for Oscar where he's qualified really well and converted it in the manner that these are the days that win you world championships when you do what you're supposed to do in the best car on the grid. We've seen that as a tried and true recipe. So to get ahead of Norris and qualifying for the first time I think it's in the last nine races the first time he's outqualified him, and then to convert that with a complete lack of fuss. It was I wouldn't say an absolute thriller, bit roller coaster right of a race, because he controlled it so well that he didn't really give anybody else a look in. So to my mind, it was more the way he won it rather than that he actually won it. That was the key. Thing, and these are the sorts of days that make you think, right you string a few of these together, they clearly have a car advantage. We can see that after the first two rounds. These are the days that put you in world championship contention rather than these amazing rearguard actions or attacking drives that we were talking about with Azerbaijahan. So an important win in the context of how he wins races. I don't think it's going to be the last time we see it either.

I think it was important to claim the victory for one, I think it was important to claim a victory in this manner. I think because you look at his previous two wins where you know Hungary, there was all of the team with Norris being in front after the pit stop, and as Abaijan he was very attacking and then onto the defensive from Charlote Claire. As we remember last year, we've not had one of these race weekends for Oscar where he's qualified really well and converted it in the manner that these are the days that win you world championships when you do what you're supposed to do in the best car on the grid. We've seen that as a tried and true recipe. So to get ahead of Norris and qualifying for the first time I think it's in the last nine races the first time he's outqualified him, and then to convert that with a complete lack of fuss. It was I wouldn't say an absolute thriller, bit roller coaster right of a race, because he controlled it so well that he didn't really give anybody else a look in. So to my mind, it was more the way he won it rather than that he actually won it. That was the key. Thing, and these are the sorts of days that make you think, right you string a few of these together, they clearly have a car advantage. We can see that after the first two rounds. These are the days that put you in world championship contention rather than these amazing rearguard actions or attacking drives that we were talking about with Azerbaijahan. So an important win in the context of how he wins races. I don't think it's going to be the last time we see it either.

Yeah, the qualifying I think point is a really important one, considering he was belted in the qualifying head to head by Lando last year. I think it was twenty to four that he was defeated. That the average margin wasn't massive, but you know, it is certainly cumulatively not a good look for him. It was the way that he was the faster driver at McLaren all weekend as well, that I think is really important because there's there is an unknown about Piastria. We ultimately will we all expect him to be title contending material. We don't know, because he hasn't been around long enough, he hasn't done it. And Lando found that extra gear late last year when he was theoretically in title contention, and we did also see Oscar fade a little bit in the final rounds. He put that down to those being those tracks he has less experience at. For him to come out and comprehensively have Lando's number this weekend, I think was really quite a big win. And something that Team Prince and Andrea Stella brought up after the race is that he's dominated at a track where last year he was pretty awful. Well, it was early in the year, obviously, similarly early as it was this season, so you're still putting together the gains he'd made in the previous year after his first season in Formula One, but he was something like forty seconds behind Norris at the end of the race last year, and the tire management was no good new surface admittedly, but same layout. Obviously. I think that for me is almost the most interesting part of this is we got a really good comparison into the step he appears to have made this year, and if it is that big, well, I think that sounds been really good. Stead.

Yeah, the qualifying I think point is a really important one, considering he was belted in the qualifying head to head by Lando last year. I think it was twenty to four that he was defeated. That the average margin wasn't massive, but you know, it is certainly cumulatively not a good look for him. It was the way that he was the faster driver at McLaren all weekend as well, that I think is really important because there's there is an unknown about Piastria. We ultimately will we all expect him to be title contending material. We don't know, because he hasn't been around long enough, he hasn't done it. And Lando found that extra gear late last year when he was theoretically in title contention, and we did also see Oscar fade a little bit in the final rounds. He put that down to those being those tracks he has less experience at. For him to come out and comprehensively have Lando's number this weekend, I think was really quite a big win. And something that Team Prince and Andrea Stella brought up after the race is that he's dominated at a track where last year he was pretty awful. Well, it was early in the year, obviously, similarly early as it was this season, so you're still putting together the gains he'd made in the previous year after his first season in Formula One, but he was something like forty seconds behind Norris at the end of the race last year, and the tire management was no good new surface admittedly, but same layout. Obviously. I think that for me is almost the most interesting part of this is we got a really good comparison into the step he appears to have made this year, and if it is that big, well, I think that sounds been really good. Stead.

It's part of the evolution, isn't it. I Mean we saw it in twenty twenty three and the race craft and the ability to get his elbows out and fight cleverly in combat has been there, and the time management was an issue in the first year. He acknowledged that that was where he had some problems. That improved last year. It's still not perhaps as good as it needs to be. That the arrow was definitely going up on that. But then the thing last year was, well, you know, he was out qualified by his teammate twenty times in twenty four Grand Prix and that was even before McLaren had a car. Advantage's not so much the back end of the year. So the way he was able to put this weekend together from really from Friday with Sprint qualifying and then the sprint and then natural Grand Prix qualifying on the Saturday. I like the fact that he's just methodically ticking these boxes off as you go, step by step, and you would hope that that would be the trajectory of a driver in his third year. There's not a lot of weaknesses in his game, and I don't want to say that the qualifying has been a weakness. It's a relative weakness compared to his strengths. If he starts to get on top of that then I wouldn't say it's the final frontier because you know, we still don't know how he is in an intra team title fight, because neither he, nor Norris or McLaren have actually been in one for something meaningful the way this season is shaking out. And then I think the looming specter of the twenty twenty six rule changes is another factor here, because there will undoubtedly be some teams that start to turn the tap off for with twenty six looming. So maybe the title fight with a number of different drivers in a number of different teams doesn't burn quite as long as it did last year. I could see it shaking out to be a few drivers battling for the big prize quite early in the season. As long as he's one of those names, then it's a different championship from maybe, you know, the last two thirds of the season. But to have a weekend like these and to show that perhaps this relative weakness is being worked on to a point where it can become a strength I think was super important for him.

It's part of the evolution, isn't it. I Mean we saw it in twenty twenty three and the race craft and the ability to get his elbows out and fight cleverly in combat has been there, and the time management was an issue in the first year. He acknowledged that that was where he had some problems. That improved last year. It's still not perhaps as good as it needs to be. That the arrow was definitely going up on that. But then the thing last year was, well, you know, he was out qualified by his teammate twenty times in twenty four Grand Prix and that was even before McLaren had a car. Advantage's not so much the back end of the year. So the way he was able to put this weekend together from really from Friday with Sprint qualifying and then the sprint and then natural Grand Prix qualifying on the Saturday. I like the fact that he's just methodically ticking these boxes off as you go, step by step, and you would hope that that would be the trajectory of a driver in his third year. There's not a lot of weaknesses in his game, and I don't want to say that the qualifying has been a weakness. It's a relative weakness compared to his strengths. If he starts to get on top of that then I wouldn't say it's the final frontier because you know, we still don't know how he is in an intra team title fight, because neither he, nor Norris or McLaren have actually been in one for something meaningful the way this season is shaking out. And then I think the looming specter of the twenty twenty six rule changes is another factor here, because there will undoubtedly be some teams that start to turn the tap off for with twenty six looming. So maybe the title fight with a number of different drivers in a number of different teams doesn't burn quite as long as it did last year. I could see it shaking out to be a few drivers battling for the big prize quite early in the season. As long as he's one of those names, then it's a different championship from maybe, you know, the last two thirds of the season. But to have a weekend like these and to show that perhaps this relative weakness is being worked on to a point where it can become a strength I think was super important for him.

This was McLaren's fiftieth one to finish in its history, only it's third since twenty ten with Yes Button and Lewis Hamilton, which is I think quite illustrative of the journey McLaren has been on the last two prior to this one came in only the last few years, of course, Daniel Ricardo and Landon Norris in Monza and then Hungary last year, so it's very much been a gradual build up to the position where McLaren is now capable of at least occasionally dominating races. It could so easily have been in Australia as well, had the weather played ball and Osco Piastri not spun off the row. But there is this question, and we are again only two rounds in a sample size of only two circuits, so we don't have all the information. But this was another race that McLaren won from pole position. The question of the advantage now perhaps as a barometer, perhaps not as a barometer at all. The comments of George Russell, who last week in Australia said, well, McLaren, they could stop developing this car and they'll win both titles easily. He's up the Ante this week and he said it is a car with the biggest advantage of any car ever, including all the Red bullcars that have come before it, and that includes presumably the twenty twenty three Red bullcar, which won all but one Grand Prix. Matt, that seems like a bit of an exaggeration, but what's your gut instinct on the team's advantage, because while this was ultimately a straightforward race for Oscar from Pole, it didn't feel like McLaren had it easy over the weekend.

This was McLaren's fiftieth one to finish in its history, only it's third since twenty ten with Yes Button and Lewis Hamilton, which is I think quite illustrative of the journey McLaren has been on the last two prior to this one came in only the last few years, of course, Daniel Ricardo and Landon Norris in Monza and then Hungary last year, so it's very much been a gradual build up to the position where McLaren is now capable of at least occasionally dominating races. It could so easily have been in Australia as well, had the weather played ball and Osco Piastri not spun off the row. But there is this question, and we are again only two rounds in a sample size of only two circuits, so we don't have all the information. But this was another race that McLaren won from pole position. The question of the advantage now perhaps as a barometer, perhaps not as a barometer at all. The comments of George Russell, who last week in Australia said, well, McLaren, they could stop developing this car and they'll win both titles easily. He's up the Ante this week and he said it is a car with the biggest advantage of any car ever, including all the Red bullcars that have come before it, and that includes presumably the twenty twenty three Red bullcar, which won all but one Grand Prix. Matt, that seems like a bit of an exaggeration, but what's your gut instinct on the team's advantage, because while this was ultimately a straightforward race for Oscar from Pole, it didn't feel like McLaren had it easy over the weekend.

I thought their pace margin relative to the rest was bigger in Australia. We just didn't really get to see it at Park on Sunday because of how sketchy the weather was. It felt they were more dominant there than they were in Shanghai too. Totally different circuits as we know. Not sure. I mean, George Russell was racing in twenty twenty three and kept seeing the same team and certainly the same guy winning most of them, So there's a little bit of recency bias in those comments. I think that I don't know what you thought, but I thought they looked to have a greater advantage in Melbourne than they did in China. But that may be a bit circuit specific. I reckon if there was if it was a dry weather Australian Grand Prix, I think they would have absolutely slaughtered the rest of the field in Melbourne, such was the advantage they had in qualifying. So we probably need a greater sample size of circuits and circuits that you can race on now, much as we love Suzuka that's coming up in the next round, it's a fantastic driver's track. I don't know if it's a fantastic racing track just by virtue of the nature of the cars are so big and wide these days. It's a very narrow, one line, high speed, great driving challenge, not maybe a great race track. So that might be a bit of an asterisk on that one, But you look at what's coming up after that with Bahrain and Saudi. By the time we get to the end of round five, you've almost got every type of track type characteristic that you probably could see across the course of the season. Then if Nat McLaren goes five for five to start the season in whichever order those drivers win, then perhaps Joe Russell's comments have got a little bit of weight. But you and I sat through twenty twenty three. There are a lot of late nights. We used to joke, you know, to get people behind the curtain here, we used to laugh after lap one start writing your race report because you pretty much knew what was going to happen. I don't think we're quite at that level of dominance yet, but I don't think it's beyond the realms because the car clearly seems to be good. The other teams all have their various problems with drivers or consistency, and also twenty twenty six that I mentioned before, so it could end up being an intro team battle for the title. But whether they have that sort of advantage that Verstappan had in twenty twenty three, it's hard to imagine that anyone could have that. Quite frankly, well, at.

I thought their pace margin relative to the rest was bigger in Australia. We just didn't really get to see it at Park on Sunday because of how sketchy the weather was. It felt they were more dominant there than they were in Shanghai too. Totally different circuits as we know. Not sure. I mean, George Russell was racing in twenty twenty three and kept seeing the same team and certainly the same guy winning most of them, So there's a little bit of recency bias in those comments. I think that I don't know what you thought, but I thought they looked to have a greater advantage in Melbourne than they did in China. But that may be a bit circuit specific. I reckon if there was if it was a dry weather Australian Grand Prix, I think they would have absolutely slaughtered the rest of the field in Melbourne, such was the advantage they had in qualifying. So we probably need a greater sample size of circuits and circuits that you can race on now, much as we love Suzuka that's coming up in the next round, it's a fantastic driver's track. I don't know if it's a fantastic racing track just by virtue of the nature of the cars are so big and wide these days. It's a very narrow, one line, high speed, great driving challenge, not maybe a great race track. So that might be a bit of an asterisk on that one, But you look at what's coming up after that with Bahrain and Saudi. By the time we get to the end of round five, you've almost got every type of track type characteristic that you probably could see across the course of the season. Then if Nat McLaren goes five for five to start the season in whichever order those drivers win, then perhaps Joe Russell's comments have got a little bit of weight. But you and I sat through twenty twenty three. There are a lot of late nights. We used to joke, you know, to get people behind the curtain here, we used to laugh after lap one start writing your race report because you pretty much knew what was going to happen. I don't think we're quite at that level of dominance yet, but I don't think it's beyond the realms because the car clearly seems to be good. The other teams all have their various problems with drivers or consistency, and also twenty twenty six that I mentioned before, so it could end up being an intro team battle for the title. But whether they have that sort of advantage that Verstappan had in twenty twenty three, it's hard to imagine that anyone could have that. Quite frankly, well, at.

A minimum it'll be a competition between two drivers, not just one. If it is, we're dominating, so you know it's not all doom and gloom. I guess twenty there were great seasons. There was at least one and a half great seasons of Mercedes domination in terms of the championship battle anyway, so there is that to look forward to. But I think you're right. In Australia it certainly looked like a bigger margin and there's still and it is. I think there is a track specific element of this. And Lando Norris in particular point to this, how the car is a bit more knife edge this year and it's a little bit easier to fall out of its window than it was last year, because he was uncharacteristically off the pace pretty much until Sunday, Okay, in Grand Prix qualifying, but it really was Sunday that the car started to come to him. So I think there's a little question mark there. And we'll talk about Ferrari in a moment. After all, they did win sprint qualifying and the sprint race, so there's something in that. But Fred Vassa and look, I'm not we can't talk about this a little bit more moment, But I'm not convinced whether or not I think this is just him defending his team and sort of deflecting a bit, or whether I do sort of buy into it. But he points to the fact that at the end of last season, the last four or five rounds, there was a different winner in all of the and all of them looked dominant, and Mercedes dominated in Vegas Ferrari, it's very convincing. Weekends Max Withstaffan was very convincing in Katar against explanation expectations and McLaren was relatively weak there despite having expected to dominate that weekend. And I think in Australia it was very straightforward from McLaren, even though the weather made a little bit more difficult, and here it just looked a little bit more marginal at various points. That makes me think a few more tracks we might see a couple of different performance profiles and actually realize that it's maybe McLaren does have the quickest car, but that's not necessarily enough to automatically win every race, and that could be enough. As we know last year things can change relatively quickly. You wouldn't have picked McLaren to have won the Constructor's Championship at this point in twenty twenty four, so I think it's early, but certainly those pre season expectations that McLaren is the fastest car I think have proved to be accurate. Matt Before we look at Ferrari and the remarkable weekend they had. We've got to pick move of the week by Shannon's because we did have some overtaking only one weekend, only one race weekend, by the way, at this weekend, obviously only the Formula One Grand Prix, Moto GP on a break, so be cars on a break, So limited number of overtakes I think to choose from, but there were a few worthy of Move of the Week. Do you want to kick us off?

A minimum it'll be a competition between two drivers, not just one. If it is, we're dominating, so you know it's not all doom and gloom. I guess twenty there were great seasons. There was at least one and a half great seasons of Mercedes domination in terms of the championship battle anyway, so there is that to look forward to. But I think you're right. In Australia it certainly looked like a bigger margin and there's still and it is. I think there is a track specific element of this. And Lando Norris in particular point to this, how the car is a bit more knife edge this year and it's a little bit easier to fall out of its window than it was last year, because he was uncharacteristically off the pace pretty much until Sunday, Okay, in Grand Prix qualifying, but it really was Sunday that the car started to come to him. So I think there's a little question mark there. And we'll talk about Ferrari in a moment. After all, they did win sprint qualifying and the sprint race, so there's something in that. But Fred Vassa and look, I'm not we can't talk about this a little bit more moment, But I'm not convinced whether or not I think this is just him defending his team and sort of deflecting a bit, or whether I do sort of buy into it. But he points to the fact that at the end of last season, the last four or five rounds, there was a different winner in all of the and all of them looked dominant, and Mercedes dominated in Vegas Ferrari, it's very convincing. Weekends Max Withstaffan was very convincing in Katar against explanation expectations and McLaren was relatively weak there despite having expected to dominate that weekend. And I think in Australia it was very straightforward from McLaren, even though the weather made a little bit more difficult, and here it just looked a little bit more marginal at various points. That makes me think a few more tracks we might see a couple of different performance profiles and actually realize that it's maybe McLaren does have the quickest car, but that's not necessarily enough to automatically win every race, and that could be enough. As we know last year things can change relatively quickly. You wouldn't have picked McLaren to have won the Constructor's Championship at this point in twenty twenty four, so I think it's early, but certainly those pre season expectations that McLaren is the fastest car I think have proved to be accurate. Matt Before we look at Ferrari and the remarkable weekend they had. We've got to pick move of the week by Shannon's because we did have some overtaking only one weekend, only one race weekend, by the way, at this weekend, obviously only the Formula One Grand Prix, Moto GP on a break, so be cars on a break, So limited number of overtakes I think to choose from, but there were a few worthy of Move of the Week. Do you want to kick us off?

I was actually going to nominate term one Lap one, but it was more a keeping of position than an overtake, wasn't it with an Oscar Piastre squeeze George Russell on to the inside curve there and left a nice little gap for his teammate to sweep through to second place. So that wasn't really classify as an overtake, but the one for me, and it looked much better with the offboard camera than it did the on board was Esteban Ochon on Kimmi Antonelli down into the hairpin Lap fourteen I think it was, And when you saw the off board it was a Ochon had two wheels on the grass and managed to keep the car a in a straight line and made you manage to make the move stick at a hairpin where well we know it's a good place to hit people careering down the inside. I seem to remember a very young Max for Staff and doing that to sebascinnivisual back in the day, but you know, probably the galand or a really really good weekend for hearts, which is not something that we're saying this time seven days ago. But to my mind, that was an outstanding move by Look, we know what Ocon's like in battle. He's one of the guys that you know what you're going to get and it's going to be pretty robust and there's going to be some elbows out. But to make that stick on a Mercedes was a little bit compromise that had some damage, as we know, but to my mind that was the overtaker of the Grand Prix. I'd be curious to see if you're going to argue with me on this one.

I was actually going to nominate term one Lap one, but it was more a keeping of position than an overtake, wasn't it with an Oscar Piastre squeeze George Russell on to the inside curve there and left a nice little gap for his teammate to sweep through to second place. So that wasn't really classify as an overtake, but the one for me, and it looked much better with the offboard camera than it did the on board was Esteban Ochon on Kimmi Antonelli down into the hairpin Lap fourteen I think it was, And when you saw the off board it was a Ochon had two wheels on the grass and managed to keep the car a in a straight line and made you manage to make the move stick at a hairpin where well we know it's a good place to hit people careering down the inside. I seem to remember a very young Max for Staff and doing that to sebascinnivisual back in the day, but you know, probably the galand or a really really good weekend for hearts, which is not something that we're saying this time seven days ago. But to my mind, that was an outstanding move by Look, we know what Ocon's like in battle. He's one of the guys that you know what you're going to get and it's going to be pretty robust and there's going to be some elbows out. But to make that stick on a Mercedes was a little bit compromise that had some damage, as we know, but to my mind that was the overtaker of the Grand Prix. I'd be curious to see if you're going to argue with me on this one.

No, I look, I quite like that one. It was a very oc on move, wasn't it to just put wheels on the grass and hope it was going to be fine and be a part of me? When I saw that, I was like, oh, this is not going to be fine. Pulled it off. Must have done a bit of an off road track walk on the Wednesday to just double check the quality of the run off there and well executed it arguably bit unnecessary down the straight but look, you got it done and you can't argue with that. I'm going to nominate probably similar. Actually we've both picked overtakes on drivers that have damaged cars. But Max Vestafan's move on Charlotte Claire laid in the race turns one, two, and three. I just really liked that he was forced. It's rare to be forced to the outside at all parts of this three part corner or complex, if you like. He had to take the outside of turn one because Charlott Clair defended the inside line. At turn two, they both ended up on the outside. He switched to what then became the outside of turn three and still got it done. They had a bit of a car advantage at that point because, for reasons he couldn't explain, his Red Bull Racing card suddenly was quicker late in the race when it certainly wasn't the first half of the race, and Leclaire was cambering damage that well. Actually, despite the damage he's cast seemed to be pretty quick in the first half of the race, So a lot of mysterious performance factors at play there, But I just liked the little bit of racecraft between him could so easily have been a crash at turn two when they both ended up wide but well navigated by both, and Max got a result that I think he didn't expect. I'm not sure who will give you. I don't know if we're obliged to give it to anyone. I think we're allowed to have two. I'd have two moves of the week.

No, I look, I quite like that one. It was a very oc on move, wasn't it to just put wheels on the grass and hope it was going to be fine and be a part of me? When I saw that, I was like, oh, this is not going to be fine. Pulled it off. Must have done a bit of an off road track walk on the Wednesday to just double check the quality of the run off there and well executed it arguably bit unnecessary down the straight but look, you got it done and you can't argue with that. I'm going to nominate probably similar. Actually we've both picked overtakes on drivers that have damaged cars. But Max Vestafan's move on Charlotte Claire laid in the race turns one, two, and three. I just really liked that he was forced. It's rare to be forced to the outside at all parts of this three part corner or complex, if you like. He had to take the outside of turn one because Charlott Clair defended the inside line. At turn two, they both ended up on the outside. He switched to what then became the outside of turn three and still got it done. They had a bit of a car advantage at that point because, for reasons he couldn't explain, his Red Bull Racing card suddenly was quicker late in the race when it certainly wasn't the first half of the race, and Leclaire was cambering damage that well. Actually, despite the damage he's cast seemed to be pretty quick in the first half of the race, So a lot of mysterious performance factors at play there, But I just liked the little bit of racecraft between him could so easily have been a crash at turn two when they both ended up wide but well navigated by both, and Max got a result that I think he didn't expect. I'm not sure who will give you. I don't know if we're obliged to give it to anyone. I think we're allowed to have two. I'd have two moves of the week.

No, they can share it. It might be the only thing Max for step at wins for a while, so perhaps he can. He can half of it. Mister man knock one can have the other half.

No, they can share it. It might be the only thing Max for step at wins for a while, so perhaps he can. He can half of it. Mister man knock one can have the other half.

Doesn't share too often either, So a dual Move of the Week by Shannons this week, let's move on now, Matt to Ferrari and Lewis Hamilton. This was very much the good news story a few days ago, but twenty four hours later not such a good news story, because right I looked like the ultimate bounce back from Australia, didn't it, with Lewis Hamilton taking that sprint pole position and then on Saturday sprint victory, which annoys me because has he won his first race for Ferrari? I don't know. I don't know where we sit on that, because on Sunday he definitely didn't win his first cron free for Ferrari, pace was again nowhere. He was slower than Leclaire, even though the Claire had this damaged front wing. A bit of a kerfuffle with radio, although that seemed to be more about broadcast. They did to be about the team and came home fairly anonymously, one of the few to stop twice in Lewis Hamilton's case. Charlotte there stopped on any once and they ended up roughly the same place on the road. So not an ideal conclusion to this weekend. Ferrari is still obviously pointing towards the performance on Saturday, and we'll talk about double disqualification that put a very much a punctuation mark at the end of this Grand Prix for them. But I don't know, is this a positive weekend for Ferrari? What what are we meant to think about?

Doesn't share too often either, So a dual Move of the Week by Shannons this week, let's move on now, Matt to Ferrari and Lewis Hamilton. This was very much the good news story a few days ago, but twenty four hours later not such a good news story, because right I looked like the ultimate bounce back from Australia, didn't it, with Lewis Hamilton taking that sprint pole position and then on Saturday sprint victory, which annoys me because has he won his first race for Ferrari? I don't know. I don't know where we sit on that, because on Sunday he definitely didn't win his first cron free for Ferrari, pace was again nowhere. He was slower than Leclaire, even though the Claire had this damaged front wing. A bit of a kerfuffle with radio, although that seemed to be more about broadcast. They did to be about the team and came home fairly anonymously, one of the few to stop twice in Lewis Hamilton's case. Charlotte there stopped on any once and they ended up roughly the same place on the road. So not an ideal conclusion to this weekend. Ferrari is still obviously pointing towards the performance on Saturday, and we'll talk about double disqualification that put a very much a punctuation mark at the end of this Grand Prix for them. But I don't know, is this a positive weekend for Ferrari? What what are we meant to think about?

It was Ferrari's Gennaro Gattuso weekend, wasn't it?

It was Ferrari's Gennaro Gattuso weekend, wasn't it?

Look it up?

Look it up?

Kids? If you ah, I had to slip that in there somewhere, But I think the did he win it's a sprint? Oh no, it doesn't count. I think the only thing that annoys you bore is when they start issuing half points places that they go the full distance. See a decimal place in the points table is something that gives you the errits. But look, it was such a I am confused. I mean I'm confused, they're confused. I'm confused by what Ferrari are doing at the moment because when it's good, it actually looks really accomplished and repeatable. And there was absolutely no doubt that Hamilton was going to win that sprint, and where it was jarring, it's like, oh, yeah, Lewis Hamilton's winning a sprint, never won a sprint before, which was a bizarre stat that came up. But also doing it in a Ferrari, it looked very normal. Yeah, that looks pretty polished, pretty normal. We're expecting to see this, really excited to see what they're going to do in the Grand Prix, and then it just didn't happen. So the swings in performance are pretty wild at the moment. I thought that the Cleare drive on Sunday was pretty typical. Charlotte Claire really in that really dogged and determined in a car that was compromised two corners into the race after hitting his own teammates, which was not fantastic. But it's so hard to read where they are because to my mind they're the team with the biggest variants at the moment, and I think when it's good, they can genuinely be really, really good. I think when it's good, they can be faster than Mercedes. But we just haven't seen it on a Sunday yet. But I'm just so I'm not underwhelmed because I think there's a good promise there for them. But it is really confusing, isn't it, with what they've done in these first couple of race weekends.

Kids? If you ah, I had to slip that in there somewhere, But I think the did he win it's a sprint? Oh no, it doesn't count. I think the only thing that annoys you bore is when they start issuing half points places that they go the full distance. See a decimal place in the points table is something that gives you the errits. But look, it was such a I am confused. I mean I'm confused, they're confused. I'm confused by what Ferrari are doing at the moment because when it's good, it actually looks really accomplished and repeatable. And there was absolutely no doubt that Hamilton was going to win that sprint, and where it was jarring, it's like, oh, yeah, Lewis Hamilton's winning a sprint, never won a sprint before, which was a bizarre stat that came up. But also doing it in a Ferrari, it looked very normal. Yeah, that looks pretty polished, pretty normal. We're expecting to see this, really excited to see what they're going to do in the Grand Prix, and then it just didn't happen. So the swings in performance are pretty wild at the moment. I thought that the Cleare drive on Sunday was pretty typical. Charlotte Claire really in that really dogged and determined in a car that was compromised two corners into the race after hitting his own teammates, which was not fantastic. But it's so hard to read where they are because to my mind they're the team with the biggest variants at the moment, and I think when it's good, they can genuinely be really, really good. I think when it's good, they can be faster than Mercedes. But we just haven't seen it on a Sunday yet. But I'm just so I'm not underwhelmed because I think there's a good promise there for them. But it is really confusing, isn't it, with what they've done in these first couple of race weekends.

Yeah, I think for me the telling aspect of this that doesn't really decode to what's happened, but gives maybe a little bit of context, is that up until Sunday, maybe even Saturday night. But let's say Sunday, Lewis Hamilton was the faster Ferrari driver, contrary to expectations. Then again, he's always been really good at this circuit, but considering that he just looked comprehensively off the pace, not by a lot, but comprehensively in Australia made that a little bit of a surprise. But then by the time we got to Sunday, that dynamic had very much reversed. Charlotte Clair had made the changes he needed for the car to be faster even with the damad's front wing, which I think there's a lot and Lewis said afterwards, look, heah, we felt really good in the sprint. We made changes that we thought were going to work, not only for the evolving track conditions, et cetera, but that we thought was going to make the car better, and he incidentally made the car worse. I think that speaks to him still not understanding how to set up this car. You know, we often find this when teams, when drivers changed teams to get those final few percent, to know which levers to pull, to know what configurations to change is difficult. Charlotte Birkley knew which ones to pull at least to improve his form, but Lewis ended up going backwards. So I think that at least explains a little bit of why the inter team result was on predictable. But you're right, it's a car that a car that looked that convincing on Saturday shouldn't have been so anonymous on Sunday in normal circumstances. I guess that also maybe speaks to this being the last year of the regulations, these rules, I don't know. Do you asked me the second half of last year, should we keep these rules longer? I would have said, well, obviously yes, because the competition seems so close, that's what you want. But it does feel like we might be entering into a little bit of random territory. We know these cars are really peaky, and if we're going from not even weekend to weekend, but day to day, and even the teams aren't sure how their cars are going to perform. I mean, on the one hand, you could argue, well, that's pretty exciting. Who knows he's going to win, But it's sort of I don't know a little bit in two minds about it, but it sort of makes you think, well, maybe we are really at the end of life of these rules, because no one seems to understand why the cars work or don't work. So I think there's a little bit of that at play in Ferrari as well. But they insist, you know, as I said earlier, Fred Bastin says, well, look, you know, next week we could dominate, and then who knows what the story is going to be, and that won't and I like it. Even that won't be convincing, you know. After the split race he sort of said, oh, I don't understand why we've won. We need to go and figure it out. I think that kind of just sums it up for Ferrari in my mind. And things really only got worse after that, though, didn't they Because it wasn't just about the bad performance. It was a double disqualification. You're more You're more of a history buff than I am in Formula one, so I want to ask you this question. I don't know the answer to it, so please don't feel pressure. When was the last time a team had two cars disqualified but for different reasons.

Yeah, I think for me the telling aspect of this that doesn't really decode to what's happened, but gives maybe a little bit of context, is that up until Sunday, maybe even Saturday night. But let's say Sunday, Lewis Hamilton was the faster Ferrari driver, contrary to expectations. Then again, he's always been really good at this circuit, but considering that he just looked comprehensively off the pace, not by a lot, but comprehensively in Australia made that a little bit of a surprise. But then by the time we got to Sunday, that dynamic had very much reversed. Charlotte Clair had made the changes he needed for the car to be faster even with the damad's front wing, which I think there's a lot and Lewis said afterwards, look, heah, we felt really good in the sprint. We made changes that we thought were going to work, not only for the evolving track conditions, et cetera, but that we thought was going to make the car better, and he incidentally made the car worse. I think that speaks to him still not understanding how to set up this car. You know, we often find this when teams, when drivers changed teams to get those final few percent, to know which levers to pull, to know what configurations to change is difficult. Charlotte Birkley knew which ones to pull at least to improve his form, but Lewis ended up going backwards. So I think that at least explains a little bit of why the inter team result was on predictable. But you're right, it's a car that a car that looked that convincing on Saturday shouldn't have been so anonymous on Sunday in normal circumstances. I guess that also maybe speaks to this being the last year of the regulations, these rules, I don't know. Do you asked me the second half of last year, should we keep these rules longer? I would have said, well, obviously yes, because the competition seems so close, that's what you want. But it does feel like we might be entering into a little bit of random territory. We know these cars are really peaky, and if we're going from not even weekend to weekend, but day to day, and even the teams aren't sure how their cars are going to perform. I mean, on the one hand, you could argue, well, that's pretty exciting. Who knows he's going to win, But it's sort of I don't know a little bit in two minds about it, but it sort of makes you think, well, maybe we are really at the end of life of these rules, because no one seems to understand why the cars work or don't work. So I think there's a little bit of that at play in Ferrari as well. But they insist, you know, as I said earlier, Fred Bastin says, well, look, you know, next week we could dominate, and then who knows what the story is going to be, and that won't and I like it. Even that won't be convincing, you know. After the split race he sort of said, oh, I don't understand why we've won. We need to go and figure it out. I think that kind of just sums it up for Ferrari in my mind. And things really only got worse after that, though, didn't they Because it wasn't just about the bad performance. It was a double disqualification. You're more You're more of a history buff than I am in Formula one, so I want to ask you this question. I don't know the answer to it, so please don't feel pressure. When was the last time a team had two cars disqualified but for different reasons.

What you're politely saying is that I'm considerably older than you, which is correct. Yeah. Look, honestly, when that happened that my first thought was go straight to Sean Kelly, Yeah, and try and find out what's going on with this, Because at virtual stapmads you go to with things like this. I can remember Ferrari cars being disqualified, but not both in the same race and for different reasons. I'm sure Sean will come back and say in the nineteen fifty eight non championship Targer Florio or something or other. He'll have something at the moment. It's just so bizarrely. Look, I remember Laclure getting disqualified in the USGP was at twenty twenty three. I think it was a similar situation, was like, and I think Hamilton was disqualified that day too, but they were teammates of course at that point. But maybe that's what I'm thinking of. But it's such a bizarre thing to have two cars thrown out of Frankly, Ferrari doesn't get out of bed to finish fifth and six. So I don't think they're going to be crying too much about it, other than the fact that they're now fifth in the Constructor's Championship, equal with Williams, which is another story. But after the race, look the underweight thing. You can see how that may have happened for the clear when this race became a one stop. It was a little bit like George Russell at SPA last year, wasn't it when what looked to be a nailed on two stop ended up being a one stop tie? Where is such that perhaps that had a factor in the car coming so close to being the minimum weight but being underneath it. So maybe that was a factor there. The plank where thing to my mind with Hamilton's car, is that not just a byproduct of you only have one practice session, you're straight into sprint qualifying on Friday. You don't get to do that really extensive long running that you normally do it a Friday FP too, and teams are always a little bit underdone on these sprint weekends and it's not a case of cross your figures and hope for the best, but they certainly don't have anywhere near the amount of data running to put something like that to bed, because I think that's something that you would have determined, perhaps in a longer practice session on the Friday and adjusting your right heights accordingly. But it's funny these things, whether it's a coincidence or not, these things tend to happen on sprint weekends, don't they.

What you're politely saying is that I'm considerably older than you, which is correct. Yeah. Look, honestly, when that happened that my first thought was go straight to Sean Kelly, Yeah, and try and find out what's going on with this, Because at virtual stapmads you go to with things like this. I can remember Ferrari cars being disqualified, but not both in the same race and for different reasons. I'm sure Sean will come back and say in the nineteen fifty eight non championship Targer Florio or something or other. He'll have something at the moment. It's just so bizarrely. Look, I remember Laclure getting disqualified in the USGP was at twenty twenty three. I think it was a similar situation, was like, and I think Hamilton was disqualified that day too, but they were teammates of course at that point. But maybe that's what I'm thinking of. But it's such a bizarre thing to have two cars thrown out of Frankly, Ferrari doesn't get out of bed to finish fifth and six. So I don't think they're going to be crying too much about it, other than the fact that they're now fifth in the Constructor's Championship, equal with Williams, which is another story. But after the race, look the underweight thing. You can see how that may have happened for the clear when this race became a one stop. It was a little bit like George Russell at SPA last year, wasn't it when what looked to be a nailed on two stop ended up being a one stop tie? Where is such that perhaps that had a factor in the car coming so close to being the minimum weight but being underneath it. So maybe that was a factor there. The plank where thing to my mind with Hamilton's car, is that not just a byproduct of you only have one practice session, you're straight into sprint qualifying on Friday. You don't get to do that really extensive long running that you normally do it a Friday FP too, and teams are always a little bit underdone on these sprint weekends and it's not a case of cross your figures and hope for the best, but they certainly don't have anywhere near the amount of data running to put something like that to bed, because I think that's something that you would have determined, perhaps in a longer practice session on the Friday and adjusting your right heights accordingly. But it's funny these things, whether it's a coincidence or not, these things tend to happen on sprint weekends, don't they.

Yes, well, I was going to say exactly that, Like, I don't think it's such a coincidence to say that that's probably what's happened here, even though when it happened in twenty twenty three to both Mercedes and Ferrari, and there were suspicions a lot of other cars that weren't checked probably had the same problem at that time. You couldn't ad just set up after FP one or after sprint qualifying. Now you can, like you say, you have limited data to make those changes. Anyway, it's only really the sprint race, which is much shorter than Grand Prix, so it's not like you have that validation time. So I think you're right. It's not that surprising, but it is. I mean, it says two things, right. It says Ferrari's pushing really hard to try and understand a car to get the most out of the car, when they know maybe they don't have the capacity to build in a margin. Considering both cars were disqualified for reasons, you'd say, what to summit up Lewis Hamilin's cars run a little bit too low and the curse cars run with a little bit too much too little ballast is fundamentally whatever it is, whatever reason the miscalculation was made, they were clearly pushing hard against those limits. But to make that, to make both mistakes on the same weekend, I think it's obviously a bad loock to have both cars disqualified. But it's just a little bit after Australia, where I think we sort of said, oh, this is a bit had a bit of a rough weekend execution wise, Well, this can only be considered much worse if we're talking about Ferrari execution. I think if this is going to be a title contending year, I mean, obviously the loss of points this weekend is going to count against them, but this kind of execution style is going to count against them. It's not as bad as McLaren was last year, but I can't but think maybe they are at least a year behind McLaren on that trajectory of becoming a championship ready team, because so far from what we've seen from McClaren against only two weekends and a lot and change, but they've been really slick in that regard, really polished in a way they weren't last year. It feels like Ferrari is now putting up against that ceiling of needing to find that next level in terms of preparation, and they're tripping up on all the same Ferrari hurdles we've become used to them a few years ago.

Yes, well, I was going to say exactly that, Like, I don't think it's such a coincidence to say that that's probably what's happened here, even though when it happened in twenty twenty three to both Mercedes and Ferrari, and there were suspicions a lot of other cars that weren't checked probably had the same problem at that time. You couldn't ad just set up after FP one or after sprint qualifying. Now you can, like you say, you have limited data to make those changes. Anyway, it's only really the sprint race, which is much shorter than Grand Prix, so it's not like you have that validation time. So I think you're right. It's not that surprising, but it is. I mean, it says two things, right. It says Ferrari's pushing really hard to try and understand a car to get the most out of the car, when they know maybe they don't have the capacity to build in a margin. Considering both cars were disqualified for reasons, you'd say, what to summit up Lewis Hamilin's cars run a little bit too low and the curse cars run with a little bit too much too little ballast is fundamentally whatever it is, whatever reason the miscalculation was made, they were clearly pushing hard against those limits. But to make that, to make both mistakes on the same weekend, I think it's obviously a bad loock to have both cars disqualified. But it's just a little bit after Australia, where I think we sort of said, oh, this is a bit had a bit of a rough weekend execution wise, Well, this can only be considered much worse if we're talking about Ferrari execution. I think if this is going to be a title contending year, I mean, obviously the loss of points this weekend is going to count against them, but this kind of execution style is going to count against them. It's not as bad as McLaren was last year, but I can't but think maybe they are at least a year behind McLaren on that trajectory of becoming a championship ready team, because so far from what we've seen from McClaren against only two weekends and a lot and change, but they've been really slick in that regard, really polished in a way they weren't last year. It feels like Ferrari is now putting up against that ceiling of needing to find that next level in terms of preparation, and they're tripping up on all the same Ferrari hurdles we've become used to them a few years ago.

Well that's the key thing, isn't it, Because it's Ferrari. We talk about this through a completely different prison because we've seen what pre Vassur Ferrari was like. It was pretty calamitous, pretty regularly calamitous. So I'm not saying it's a revisit to the bad old days of how it was before he took over, but there's definitely echoes of it. And if this sort of thing happens to other teams, I think we're having a really different discussion. It's because it's Ferrari, and you know they clearly you look at the driver lineup and the pedigree and where they should be. Look, I mean, do we really stickly think their championship contenders this year? No, but I think the building blocks of what they do this year they need to clean all this sort of stuff up because there is an opportunity next year by virtue of the fact that we've got this big regulation reset. They need to be completely on it now. If you're going to be making mistakes the first two rounds of a season, you know it's better now than later, perhaps, But you don't want to have too many more weekends like this because it feels like they're kind of beating themselves to a point at the moment and not achieving the results they should be for things that they can control, and that's what you've got to try and clean up.

Well that's the key thing, isn't it, Because it's Ferrari. We talk about this through a completely different prison because we've seen what pre Vassur Ferrari was like. It was pretty calamitous, pretty regularly calamitous. So I'm not saying it's a revisit to the bad old days of how it was before he took over, but there's definitely echoes of it. And if this sort of thing happens to other teams, I think we're having a really different discussion. It's because it's Ferrari, and you know they clearly you look at the driver lineup and the pedigree and where they should be. Look, I mean, do we really stickly think their championship contenders this year? No, but I think the building blocks of what they do this year they need to clean all this sort of stuff up because there is an opportunity next year by virtue of the fact that we've got this big regulation reset. They need to be completely on it now. If you're going to be making mistakes the first two rounds of a season, you know it's better now than later, perhaps, But you don't want to have too many more weekends like this because it feels like they're kind of beating themselves to a point at the moment and not achieving the results they should be for things that they can control, and that's what you've got to try and clean up.

All right, Let's look at the big well on and off track story this week, and that is Red Bull Racing. Another fine week well not fine, it's not what they want, but fine weekend for Max withstaffn finished third and the sprint forth in the Grand Prix. With that, as we mentioned, unexpectedly reasonable pace late in the Grand Prix to pass both Ferrari drivers and finish better than I think you expected. But that he says, the car deserves, but it's the car and the other car that is the talking point, both the quality of the car and the driver in the other car. Because Liam Lawson had another weekend to forget twentieth in both qualifying sessions, failed to score in either race. I mean it's not great, a good start. Actually I enjoyed this one. Was that's the worst two rounds of qualifying consecutively any drive in Red Bull history has ever had. The closest was David Coulthard in two thousand and six or seven when he qualified seventeenth and nineteenth consecutively, So not quite as bad as eighteenth and twentieth, but close. But was obviously a long time before Red Bull had any kind of expectations to be a good team. So it's not great whichever way you cut it. Alarmingly, Matt though, we're not even two full weeks into this season yet, two rounds into this season, and already Red Bull Racing is considering dropping Liam Lawson. I mean they couldn't, could they?

All right, Let's look at the big well on and off track story this week, and that is Red Bull Racing. Another fine week well not fine, it's not what they want, but fine weekend for Max withstaffn finished third and the sprint forth in the Grand Prix. With that, as we mentioned, unexpectedly reasonable pace late in the Grand Prix to pass both Ferrari drivers and finish better than I think you expected. But that he says, the car deserves, but it's the car and the other car that is the talking point, both the quality of the car and the driver in the other car. Because Liam Lawson had another weekend to forget twentieth in both qualifying sessions, failed to score in either race. I mean it's not great, a good start. Actually I enjoyed this one. Was that's the worst two rounds of qualifying consecutively any drive in Red Bull history has ever had. The closest was David Coulthard in two thousand and six or seven when he qualified seventeenth and nineteenth consecutively, So not quite as bad as eighteenth and twentieth, but close. But was obviously a long time before Red Bull had any kind of expectations to be a good team. So it's not great whichever way you cut it. Alarmingly, Matt though, we're not even two full weeks into this season yet, two rounds into this season, and already Red Bull Racing is considering dropping Liam Lawson. I mean they couldn't, could they?

Yes, they could because they're red I mean you mentioned, you know the quality of the driver in the second car and the performance of the second car. If this podcast existed in twenty nineteen, you could have said that exact same sentence. Because this is Red Bull Racing's Daniel Riccardo problem, and I've framed it as this a couple of times before, and people look at him and say, what are you talking about. They have not found a competent second driver in that team since Riccardo left at the end of twenty eighteen. This has been a problem that you use the analogy of kicking the can down the road. I'm not sure how much is left of his can at this point. Are so scuffed by bitchuman, but they've just kept booting this thing down the road for year after year after year. Before we go down that path, Can I just say something nice about Red Bull, because I think we should probably temper it a little bit. Max Verstappen is driving incredibly well at the moment given what it is that he has to drive, what he's doing in that car. He's second in the World Championship. Now he's not probably going to stay there. But what he's achieving with what he's been given to drive right now is absolutely outstanding. So if I had a hat, I would be tipping it to Max Forstappen right now. But this second car in your original question, they couldn't drive Billy and Lawson after two races, could they? They couldn't. Probably would like to hand on heart. Yes it's bad. It's really bad at the moment. And you know there's all the caveats about he'd never raced anything in Melbourne, he went to Shanghai a million years ago, so on and so forth, compared to how long they hung on to Sergio Perez, where it was demonstrably bad that it cost them two places in the Constructors Championship in the year they won the Driver's World Championship. For Lawson to be on the chopping block after two races is completely insane, for one, and completely in keeping with what an absolute rabble this driver pipeline has turned into. And while I'm on my soap box here, this could be like a ten minute monologue. So they put the catalog. This is the bit that I don't get right. I'm going to bounce this off. This is a bit I don't get Red Bull has two teams. Theoretically they have double the chance of any other team of getting this right because they have a pool of four drivers can put in Formula one seats and not two. For this to be a worse situation than any other team at finding two competent drivers is absolutely crazy to me. You've literally got almost an unfair advantage in air quotes to get this more right than every other team, and you routinely get it wrong year after year after year, and the same people are in the same management positions, and we have the same conversation. Would it be very harsh on lem laws and to get the boot after two rounds, particularly with A we've got tripleheader coming up. B We're off to Suzuka next, so there's none of this. He hasn't driven here, He's done a full season of super Formula. He knows Suzuka really well. He has raced in Formula one there and being good. It would be bonkers to get rid of him before the next race. And what are you going to do if you do get rid of him, You're going to put Yuki Sonoda in there, who you've basically told for five years isn't competent to be the second driver next to Max Ofastappan. That's a very very long winded way of saying. Is it insane that they could drop Lawson? Yes? Do I'm more than half expected to happen given that team's track record. Also, yes, but I'll climb down off my site box and give you a go on it. How are you reading this situation? Because after what they did last year with Perez, I thought keeping him on was possibly the silliest thing they've ever done for as long as they did, but this might actually top it if they get rid of Lawson after two weekends.

Yes, they could because they're red I mean you mentioned, you know the quality of the driver in the second car and the performance of the second car. If this podcast existed in twenty nineteen, you could have said that exact same sentence. Because this is Red Bull Racing's Daniel Riccardo problem, and I've framed it as this a couple of times before, and people look at him and say, what are you talking about. They have not found a competent second driver in that team since Riccardo left at the end of twenty eighteen. This has been a problem that you use the analogy of kicking the can down the road. I'm not sure how much is left of his can at this point. Are so scuffed by bitchuman, but they've just kept booting this thing down the road for year after year after year. Before we go down that path, Can I just say something nice about Red Bull, because I think we should probably temper it a little bit. Max Verstappen is driving incredibly well at the moment given what it is that he has to drive, what he's doing in that car. He's second in the World Championship. Now he's not probably going to stay there. But what he's achieving with what he's been given to drive right now is absolutely outstanding. So if I had a hat, I would be tipping it to Max Forstappen right now. But this second car in your original question, they couldn't drive Billy and Lawson after two races, could they? They couldn't. Probably would like to hand on heart. Yes it's bad. It's really bad at the moment. And you know there's all the caveats about he'd never raced anything in Melbourne, he went to Shanghai a million years ago, so on and so forth, compared to how long they hung on to Sergio Perez, where it was demonstrably bad that it cost them two places in the Constructors Championship in the year they won the Driver's World Championship. For Lawson to be on the chopping block after two races is completely insane, for one, and completely in keeping with what an absolute rabble this driver pipeline has turned into. And while I'm on my soap box here, this could be like a ten minute monologue. So they put the catalog. This is the bit that I don't get right. I'm going to bounce this off. This is a bit I don't get Red Bull has two teams. Theoretically they have double the chance of any other team of getting this right because they have a pool of four drivers can put in Formula one seats and not two. For this to be a worse situation than any other team at finding two competent drivers is absolutely crazy to me. You've literally got almost an unfair advantage in air quotes to get this more right than every other team, and you routinely get it wrong year after year after year, and the same people are in the same management positions, and we have the same conversation. Would it be very harsh on lem laws and to get the boot after two rounds, particularly with A we've got tripleheader coming up. B We're off to Suzuka next, so there's none of this. He hasn't driven here, He's done a full season of super Formula. He knows Suzuka really well. He has raced in Formula one there and being good. It would be bonkers to get rid of him before the next race. And what are you going to do if you do get rid of him, You're going to put Yuki Sonoda in there, who you've basically told for five years isn't competent to be the second driver next to Max Ofastappan. That's a very very long winded way of saying. Is it insane that they could drop Lawson? Yes? Do I'm more than half expected to happen given that team's track record. Also, yes, but I'll climb down off my site box and give you a go on it. How are you reading this situation? Because after what they did last year with Perez, I thought keeping him on was possibly the silliest thing they've ever done for as long as they did, but this might actually top it if they get rid of Lawson after two weekends.

Yeah. I think it's just pure panic at this point, isn't it, Because there's no rational reason to drop him. Obviously hasn't scored any points and so you can say, well, there's a championship reason to do it. But it's so early that you can only describe this as panic. I think if they do bring if they bring Yuki Sonoda in, it is one of the great monumental political batflicks backflips in formud one history. Because, as you said, for years now, they've told him he's not going to do it. He said, he got phone. You've got three different phone calls when Liam Lawson got the drive from various Red Bull management figures explaining to him that oh, you know, it's this and that, telling him essentially in a bunch of different ways, that they just don't want him. Christian Horner called him the perennial bridesmaid last year and said essentially that he'd be dropped at the end of this year because there's no reason for them to keep him because he's never getting a Red Bull Racing.

Yeah. I think it's just pure panic at this point, isn't it, Because there's no rational reason to drop him. Obviously hasn't scored any points and so you can say, well, there's a championship reason to do it. But it's so early that you can only describe this as panic. I think if they do bring if they bring Yuki Sonoda in, it is one of the great monumental political batflicks backflips in formud one history. Because, as you said, for years now, they've told him he's not going to do it. He said, he got phone. You've got three different phone calls when Liam Lawson got the drive from various Red Bull management figures explaining to him that oh, you know, it's this and that, telling him essentially in a bunch of different ways, that they just don't want him. Christian Horner called him the perennial bridesmaid last year and said essentially that he'd be dropped at the end of this year because there's no reason for them to keep him because he's never getting a Red Bull Racing.

Drive and no Hondolins either.

Drive and no Hondolins either.

Yes, and even Honda has now said well, at this point it's sort of up to him and it'll be interesting to see how that evolves, depending what happens the next couple of weeks. So the idea that he might get the drive now is just it is absurd. It's absurd. The point Red Bull has put itself in here, but it's a problem, as you've said, completely of its own making. Had a lot of decisions to make in the middle of last year, and you can't help but wonder we've sort of run through some of the scenarios in the background of this at an article at Fox sports dot Com at a usually go and read that was published on Monday afternoon last year. It decided suddenly that it would retain Sir Joe Perrys in August at the mid season break after a pretty terrible run into the mid season break that continued after it. That subsequently meant Daniel Ricardo was sacked after a few more rounds at the Singapore Grand Prix. We all remember, we sh meant Liam Lawson was brought in for a few races to for a reason that really in retrospect isn't clear, because clearly they weren't going to put Yuki Sinoda in the seat. They already knew that Lawson was quick enough to be in Formula one and that seems to have been the only criteria to get the promotion once Pais was dropped at the end of the year. But as a result, several things happened, right They were on a trajectory to put a driver with eleven Grand Prix into a Red Bull Racing seat the hardest in Formula One, not only because their teammates with Max, but because the car is so difficult to drive, and was so difficult to drive last year that even Max couldn't drive it. Let's not forget for a few races around about the Italian Grand Prix even he said this is too much, and clearly the progress this year has been minimal on that front. It dispensed with the only experienced driver in its lineup that has a history of success at Red Bull Racing, which was Daniel Ricardo. Now we can argue about whether or not a driver who failed to adapt to the Claren car and was okay against Yuki Sinoda would have been able to cut it. You could also argue, though, on the other hand, that well, that's where he's driving style was developed in cars built by Red Bull, so surely having brought him back to racing balls or whatever it was called at the time, he was worth a crack, considering that at this point they were at the bottom of the batrel with no decisions to make. But then, most of all, the driver that they've spent millions in developing with Honda, they've continued to let wither on the vine. It's almost like they've chosen the most difficult option and had hoped that that would be enough that they'd pull it out of the bag. That would be a miracle move. But it just doesn't make any sense that the logical decision making there. And I think there's also another element here, And I thought it was interesting that Liam himself sort of pointed to it on Sunday night. He didn't use his excuse. He's been really trying to front up and cop all the responsibility in the blame. And I guess not a lot else you can do when you're qualifying last. But he said, compared to all the other rookie drivers who've had in some cases thousands of kilometers of testing in previous editions of their team's cars, And think of Andre kim Antonelli year, even Jack Do and a few others, despite him being a red bull driver, he's had almost none the odd test here and there. Often they've been in Alpha TAWI or RV or racing bulls cars when you want to call them. So there's a Minati thrown in there as well, but didn't have that testing program. I mean the car that is now notoriously difficult to drive, and after only not even one and a half days of preseason testing, considering he lost a lot of his sole day to both weather and technical problems. Remarkably, that is a pretty difficult position to be in. And you know, okay, there's all those people have to say. Oh, you know, if one's not a finishing school and you're not on anything, you've got to be the finished product whatever. That's a pretty raw way to come into a team that expects, probably against realistic expectations, to try and win both championships this year. So it's a rough way to be But I think whatever way you cut it, Red Bull Racing has continuously, through its decision making, made this problem for itself and now it's panicking and doesn't know what to do about it.

Yes, and even Honda has now said well, at this point it's sort of up to him and it'll be interesting to see how that evolves, depending what happens the next couple of weeks. So the idea that he might get the drive now is just it is absurd. It's absurd. The point Red Bull has put itself in here, but it's a problem, as you've said, completely of its own making. Had a lot of decisions to make in the middle of last year, and you can't help but wonder we've sort of run through some of the scenarios in the background of this at an article at Fox sports dot Com at a usually go and read that was published on Monday afternoon last year. It decided suddenly that it would retain Sir Joe Perrys in August at the mid season break after a pretty terrible run into the mid season break that continued after it. That subsequently meant Daniel Ricardo was sacked after a few more rounds at the Singapore Grand Prix. We all remember, we sh meant Liam Lawson was brought in for a few races to for a reason that really in retrospect isn't clear, because clearly they weren't going to put Yuki Sinoda in the seat. They already knew that Lawson was quick enough to be in Formula one and that seems to have been the only criteria to get the promotion once Pais was dropped at the end of the year. But as a result, several things happened, right They were on a trajectory to put a driver with eleven Grand Prix into a Red Bull Racing seat the hardest in Formula One, not only because their teammates with Max, but because the car is so difficult to drive, and was so difficult to drive last year that even Max couldn't drive it. Let's not forget for a few races around about the Italian Grand Prix even he said this is too much, and clearly the progress this year has been minimal on that front. It dispensed with the only experienced driver in its lineup that has a history of success at Red Bull Racing, which was Daniel Ricardo. Now we can argue about whether or not a driver who failed to adapt to the Claren car and was okay against Yuki Sinoda would have been able to cut it. You could also argue, though, on the other hand, that well, that's where he's driving style was developed in cars built by Red Bull, so surely having brought him back to racing balls or whatever it was called at the time, he was worth a crack, considering that at this point they were at the bottom of the batrel with no decisions to make. But then, most of all, the driver that they've spent millions in developing with Honda, they've continued to let wither on the vine. It's almost like they've chosen the most difficult option and had hoped that that would be enough that they'd pull it out of the bag. That would be a miracle move. But it just doesn't make any sense that the logical decision making there. And I think there's also another element here, And I thought it was interesting that Liam himself sort of pointed to it on Sunday night. He didn't use his excuse. He's been really trying to front up and cop all the responsibility in the blame. And I guess not a lot else you can do when you're qualifying last. But he said, compared to all the other rookie drivers who've had in some cases thousands of kilometers of testing in previous editions of their team's cars, And think of Andre kim Antonelli year, even Jack Do and a few others, despite him being a red bull driver, he's had almost none the odd test here and there. Often they've been in Alpha TAWI or RV or racing bulls cars when you want to call them. So there's a Minati thrown in there as well, but didn't have that testing program. I mean the car that is now notoriously difficult to drive, and after only not even one and a half days of preseason testing, considering he lost a lot of his sole day to both weather and technical problems. Remarkably, that is a pretty difficult position to be in. And you know, okay, there's all those people have to say. Oh, you know, if one's not a finishing school and you're not on anything, you've got to be the finished product whatever. That's a pretty raw way to come into a team that expects, probably against realistic expectations, to try and win both championships this year. So it's a rough way to be But I think whatever way you cut it, Red Bull Racing has continuously, through its decision making, made this problem for itself and now it's panicking and doesn't know what to do about it.

Panic's a good word, by the way, f one's not a finishing school, thank you, Mark Webber, one of his favorite sayings. So if that's the case, maybe maybe signed Carlos Science when he's available. He'd probably be a pretty decent candidate for that second seat. But that's another story. But your point on Lawson not being able to just hammer around a bunch of testing tracks like Antonelli did last year is really valid, and you do wonder that there's no pace or statistical justification for having Ricardo in the car for the back half of last year. If they'd gotten rid of Perez at the mid season break, which was being mooted, at least we would have got some sort of decision on whether Daniel was the right person for the job if you put him in for that. Because the Constructors Championship was toased at that point, that wasn't happening, So I'm not really sure what you're going to lose by actually finding out whether he could adapt to that car. You had probably a seven or eight race sample size. The answer, based on the evidence that we've seen before, was probably not. But then at least Lawson gets to do all of the getting all the bugs out and doing all that outside of the spotlight, like Antonelli did, like Jack Doing did. As you mentioned, maybe that was the right course of action in retrospect, but this is the question. So say they make the swap for Suzuka and Yuki Sonoda, who they've publicly rejected a thousand times at this point ends up in the seat next to a Stappan. Why is he going to do any better in a car that's clearly got its limitations and is clearly going to be difficult to drive for anyone else other than one of the best drivers in the history of Formula One. And the parallel that I'll make here taking two wheels off here and putting my motor GP hat on is We only really found out how bad Honda was when Mark Marskeys got injured in twenty twenty, because he papered over the cracks of where that bike was going developmentally for the latter part of the twenty tens and just kept winning world championships because he was Mark Marquez. And as soon as he got injured and was not himself for the best part of four years, that bike and that program went absolutely nowhere. It was probably hiding in plain sight, but he was so brilliant that he was papering over the cracks. And you look at what Vstapan's done at Red Bull the last couple of years, yes, twenty twenty three. It was clearly a fantastic car, so fantastic in fact, that even Sergia Perez WANs and races in it, but as soon as it became a difficult car. We saw what he did last year, particularly in the back half of last year. That's not a championship that too many other drivers would have won last year, and I think that's where you see his quality. The fact that he's scratching around trying to get random fourth places out of a car that's clearly more difficult this year than last shows you a how good he is and b how much that car has lost its way. So if you stick Yuki Sonoda in there, or Christian Horner wakes up one morning and says, let's get Avid Lindbladd in here, let's get him a super license, or they go and get Valterie Botass off the Mercedes bench or something to put in that second car, why is it going to be any better than Lawson, who a few weeks ago they were investing in him and they were going to give him time. I go back to what I said originally, he has got to be in the car for Suzuka because that takes one variable off the table. He knows the circuit probably better than any circuit on the Formula one calendar, and he raced there before. If it's this bad again after Suzuka, then knock yourself out. Fine, somebody else to put that second seat. The question is if it's not him, then who is it?