Leighton Smith Podcast #248 - July 24th 2024 - Ramesh Thakur

Published Jul 24, 2024, 2:47 AM

Ramesh Thakur is well known to this audience; he has appeared on the Leighton Smith Podcast more than once.

There was much to catch up on.

His views on the world and its various parts are substantiated by life experience. He taught at a number of universities including Otago and ANU Canberra and Rector at the U.N. University. He was also an assistant Sec-Gen of the U.N.

As a result his commentary on world issues is superb.

And finally, we delve into The Mailroom with Mrs Producer.

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You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B. Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all the information, all the debates of this now the Layton Smith Podcast powered by News Talks it B.

Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and forty eight for July twenty four, twenty twenty four. Ramish the Curve is a familiar name on this podcast. His history is pretty well known. Professor at Otago for a lengthy period, then Australian National University, Canberra, time at the United Nations, including as Assistant Secretary General and a profound author, and there's many more accolades. At the beginning of the discussion that we have we worked our way through so much of relevance, beginning with the latest, well almost the latest in US politics, hard to keep up other world matters, including dangers of a centralized digitized world, cash and cbdc's free speech wokeness. We called time at eighty minutes, and I've chosen to split the discussion over two weeks. Over two weeks podcast so two forty eight is part one. Now, I have no doubt it falls into the category of one of the best. After the mail Room, I've included what is a lengthy piece, an article that's highly relevant to believers in democracy, freedom, independence. Actually it's actually it's relevant to everyone. Really, one man's battle with a suppression will cover it for the moment. It also has a connection with Oliver Hartwitch's column on the New Zealand Initiative website. Europe is now on its own a connection because both involve Europe, specifically Germany. Now, a couple of things in passing just before we get into Ramesh the Kur there is an individual who's causing a great deal of shall we say, agitation with practically all the population, well those who are aware of it. This individual is a member of Parliament and shouldn't be. This individual is sitting on the back seat and collecting full salary, which she apparently is entitled to as long as she stays there for the next two and a half years. Now there are people who are blaming other people and trying to trying to decide who's responsible for this situation. And the answer is there's one thing that's responsible for it, and it's called MMP. And MMP has wrought all sorts of issues over the years. It's something that we should dump yesterday. But it won't happen, of course, because it's too difficult, and I suppose we have to live with it. But it's failings showed themselves occasionally, and this is one of them and one of the worst. There are all sorts of adjectives I could use to describe this person, but I'll leave that for you to fill in some spare time with the other one is the other one I want to mention is something that is relevant elsewhere but also of interest to us. The chances are very high that you've never heard of this individual whose name is Tina Peters.

Who was Tina Peters?

Well, she was the election clerk at Mesa or Mesa, whichever you want, Mesa County of Colorado at the twenty twenty election. And she's looking at twenty years in jail. Why because in the election that mattered, she decided that she would retain records of voting. Now, I have no idea of any further details except that this story broke just a few minutes ago while I was recording, and it came up on my phone. So I had a quick look at it, and I thought I'll throw this in for good measure because we have experienced, all of us have experienced this trauma that came out of the twenty twenty election and the twenty two election as well, but with voting machines and all sorts of claims and counterclaims and megabucks being paid out in lawsuits, etc. It gained an awful lot of attention. And the question still hangs in the air. Was the twenty twenty election corrupt? I know that it was, but was it corrupt enough to swing the result? It's something we don't know. I don't know, nobody knows, but you can have a guess. Anyway, this story just broke and I thought I'd throw it in because if it's true, and I have no idea as to its truthfulness, came up on X then there could be all sorts of repercussions. And I just find that interesting or a tacit your way now in just a moment, rameshtheku. There are essential fat nutrients that we need in our diets as the body can't manufacture them. These are Omega three and Amiga six fatty acids. Equisine is a combination of fish oil, and virgin evening primrose oil, a formula that provides an excellent source of Omega three and Omega six fatty acids in their naturally existing ratios. The Omega six from evening primrose oil assists the Omega three fish oil to be more effective. Equisine is a high quality fish oil supplement enriched with evening primrose oil that works synergistically for comprehensive health support. Source from the deep sea sardines, Anchovisa Magril provide essential Amiga three fatty acids in their purest form without any internal organs or toxins. Every batch is tested for its purity before it's allowed to be sold. Equism supports cells to be flexible, so important to support healthy blood flow and overall cardiovascular health. Equisine can support mood, balance and mental clarity and focus in children, all the way to supporting stiff joints, mental focus, brain health and healthy eyes as we get older. Equasin is a premium, high grade fish and evening primrose oil to be taken in addition to a healthy diet and is only available from pharmacies and health stores. Always read the label and users directed, and if symptoms persist, seeing your healthcare professional, farmer broker Auckland. Rameshtha Kur is emeritus Professor in the Crawford School of Public Policy at the Australian National University. He's a Fellow of the Australian Institute of International Affairs and Brownstone Institute's Senior Scholar. He's doing brilliant work with Brownstone. He was a Senior Vice rector at the United Nations University and Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations. Educated in India and Canada, he was a professor of International Relations at the University of Otago, a professor and head of the Peace Research Center the Australian National University, and Foundation director of the Balsilly School of International Affairs at Waterloo, Ontario. He's also served as a consultant advisor to the Australian, New Zealand and Norwegian governments on arms, controlled, disarmament and international security issues. And he was commissioner and one of the principal authors of the Responsibility to Protect in two thousand one, and Senior Advisor on Reforms and principal writer of the United Nations Secretary General KOFE. NaN's Second Reform Report in two thousand and two he's been on this podcast on more than two occasions, and it's a great pleasure to welcome me back.

Ramsha. I hope you're good. Good, Thank you. Laden.

I noticed that we hadn't spoken this year at all, and that disturbed me, and it was it was even it was about nine months ago. I think that we that we actually did our last interview. And I can't understand that except that this year.

Has been a little bit. Time flies.

This year has been a little different to a lot of a lot of others. Are you yes, you've just come back from Japan too? Was what was the cause? I was in Hiroshima. Every year since twenty thirteen, the Governor of Hiroshima, which is an elected position, has convened a small group of international experts on a team called the Hiroshima Around Table. We look at the year that has gone by and look forward to the year that's coming with respect to the threats and attempts.

To reduce the threats from nuclear weapons. And we've done it every year except for two years when we couldn't because of the travel restrictions in relation to COVID. Is it what you announced? This? Sorry? Just one last thing, Well, I'm on that subject. I announced to the group this year that this will be my last meeting. Excuse me, I'm getting a bit too old to engage in law distance travel. Your body rebuilt. I'll keep going to New Zealand and to family in India, and beyond that that's unlikely.

Well, there are people, it is really important or interesting. There are people in New Zealand who will see you as often as you like. Now, you've also published a book last year, our enemy, the government. I want to talk to you about the book, and I thought it appropriate to rate it at the beginning. But before we do the book, I want to ask you about your thoughts on American politics at this moment, with the last couple of weeks in mind, because there has been well what can I say, there has been an earthquake. Politically of course.

Yes, yes, Well it's in a sense part of the ongoing sense of in Churchill's words, the gathering storm once again internationally. But of course the United States has a uniquely important influence in shaping the contours of world affairs and geopolitics as well. So what's happening that is important for all of us, particularly all of us in the Western democratic world, if you like. And we began the year with the thought that surely the United States can do better than presenting us with the same two choices. But in fact there has been remarkable developments with respect to both of them within the past two to three weeks, including today as we speak, or overnight as we speak, with respect to President Biden finally bowing to reality, the political reality which is caused by his increasingly obvious health reality. So yes, there's all sorts of convulsions is probably the best word. In the meantime with the attempted assassination on Trump, there's another whole slew of questions and reflections in relation to that. I mean, I think we're all going to be watching that particular photo endlessly from not in November, and I suspect periodically after that. I'm not sure what photos you can compare that to. Its certainly visually very reminiscent of the famous photograph on Yuojima as the Americans raised the American flag, except that was obviously more consequential in terms of the Pacific War theater of the Second World War, but it was whereas the Trump thing was lived reality in technical for everyone who was watching it live or unless they've been hiding themselves under rock, watched the news since then, and it recreates a myth of Trump which is in a sense sharper than and different from his previous perceived for sooner. So that's one side of it. And that followed the disastrous debate performance by Joe Biden, which performed the reality that he's mentally aged a lot, even in the past four years, almost on a monthly basis, and essentially, to be blunt about it, the Democratic Party and the press by and large have light to the public about just how bad he's been and until it became just too obvious and they had to backtrack. And now he's had to leave. Where does that leave us? We don't know, but the fact remains, but the election in November will be exceptionally consequential for the United States and for the world. And there's a number of teams that call us around that. So as on how much you want to unpack, but you know, the just political stupidity, but the worrying implications for democracy of the way in which they have weaponized lawfare against Trump, adding to the way they made it impossible for him to govern in his first term. How much of that has he learned from? Will he from the first day onwards, to use his phrase, try to drain the swamp, except with more efficiency and determination, perhaps more success this time. Because that erosion of democratic freedom, civil liberties, election integrity, the institutions, the slide from democratic self governing republics and monarchies for that matter, to the administrative administrative state where the technocratic elites are in charge, aligned with international elites, technocratic elits and organizations, and in collision with the big media, big tech, etc. The transformation of democratic politics as we've known it in terms of political partisanship and social cievage, in the sense that democrats in the US, labor parties on the UK, Australia and New Zealand have changed from have evolved and changed qua dramatically from their roots and workers and working class people into representing the elites. And it's the conservative parties now that are increasingly aligning with the workers. You see that vigaide defense. You know, if you look, well, Kamala Harris another likely to be the new presidential candidate. But if you look at these two together, it's a good conjunction because between them. Vance is the one who has white trash origins, if I may use that phrase in this context, from Middletown, Ohio and overcame that complete dysfunction, completely dysfunctional family, poor boy, come good, worked on self discipline, used education, joined the Marines, then used the gi bill, leveraged that background to enroll in Ohio State University, graduated, went Yale Law School, graduated from there, became a venture capitalist of businessman, entrepreneur, and then entered politics. And his book, I assuming you've read it, Hillbilly Elergy. I read it some years ago now when it came out. It's quite a gripping account of this heart scrabble backstory that he has. And he represents one, shall we say, leg of the great dream of overcoming your origins, working hard and achieving success and financial rewards. But just as importantly, and I think at this point has to be made as well, his wife, Usha Chili Huri Evans. Now she is from middle class, comfortable background for immigrant parents, and represents the dream that immigrants have when they come to the West of working hard, being rewarded for it, and a belief in the rule of law where no one is either above the law or below the law. In other words, they are subject to the law and bound by it, but they also are protected by the law against excesses and arbitrary excess as a power. So all those things are just being complete that in one sentiday. On the other side, surprisingly, by contrast, Kamla Harris is the child of privilege and as an adult, the beneficiary of political patrileage. And yet in terms of racial avent do you think it should be the other around? So it's a strange world, but it's a world in transformation.

In the middle of chaos, with hope it's creative rather than destructive.

Girls.

Well, I'd very much like to think that you're that you're right when you when you said something about the two of them, were you talking about about JD and his wife or were you referring to him alone?

When I started off as referring to j Evans comparison to Kamala Harris, well, then of course I did segive into the two of them in terms of the Vans and Vans.

So what about the combination of Trump and Vance? How does that sit with you?

It's an interesting choice. I was very pleased with that. Uh, and we don't will. I guess we might find out in due course if his choice might have been different. Oh, he was leaning in a different way before the attempt on his life. But what happens after that is very interesting if you think you threw from his point of view. Firstly, I suspect it confirms in his mind that he's going to win this year. That attempt and his survival and the way he reacted in a sense, is the deed. If that's the case, he doesn't need to worry so much about a running mate who brings other states or other votes to the elected College to add to his. He now takes that for granted and thinks, okay, if I win, I want my revolution to be institutionalized within the party, and I want someone who will carry on my legacy. Now, if you think of his first administration and the chaos and his senior appointments and the Turner were in the senior appointments, the vice president is the one person he can't sack elected on the ticket. All the other cabinet appointees he can sack. So he needs someone that he thinks believes in his vision and in and in what he's trying to do. And secondly has the strength of character to withstand the attacks that will come his way as well. So if you're going to embed your legacy, none of the other potential choices would have matched what Vance has to offer, whereas some of the others would have been better in terms of winning State A or State B as well. So there's that consideration. Vance is trump Ism without the Trump character flaws. He's articulate, he's personable, he's accomplished, he has a stable family. He is clearly a devoted a husband and father, and he seems to give higher priority to that than to anything else, which is understanda will give in his own background. Then at the convention he introduces his mother, and I certainly hadn't realized since reading the book that the mother has been on the mend and has been clean and sober, as you put it, for more than nine years, almost ten years or ten years will be completed in January. So it's quite a compelling story. And I thought he spoke very well, and his wife did a good job introducing him as well, and I think that will build and the two of them together should make an effective set of campaigners. So for those reasons, I was actually quite pleased with the choice. I think in terms of what he's trying to do. You know, Rance is not going to have the crude vulgarity that is an inevitable part of the baggage of the package that comes with Trump. But I think and also both of them are more pragmatic conservatives rather than ideological conservatives, and so I think they may balance out quite nicely. Vance is supposed to be an excellent debater as well, and we've seen glimpses of that. So it will be interesting. Now the course of focus will turn to who's going to be Kamala Harris's running mate, and of course on the final products. And now, as someone who's Indian, you've got a bit of Indian as a presidential candidate now and one half of the advanced package as an Indian background as well. So it's spearing to see us in my community doing well. The Indians are coming Indians, I hear me, Well, don't mind. I don't think soon like did very well as Prime Minister in the UK, but Attlea at least you know the good about the UK. If if I'm against Sichtra is that Indian he was just as he should have been all alone on his performance, not on the color of his skin. And it's to his everlasting credit that he has not blamed any of the results on racial discrimination or presidente and the same with Chili Kuri. It's a family that relied on hard work and application. No one came to favoritism. So I think if you look at the Indian overseas Indian community, including in New Zealand, they seem to reflect the thing that I argued in relation to the voice to be here, and that is that I do not seek any privilege or rights is not available to every other Australian, but I do want to claim rights all the rights that are available to any other Australian, So just as on our merits and work, not on our inherited characteristics. And that's I'm pleased to see that that's a more widespread phenomena as far as the overseas Indian community is concerned.

Now you may mention of the Democrat Party edits Hinchman and in the same breath the media and how they have deceived, which.

Deceived, dessembled protected Democrats tried to undermine the Trump first administration and his candidacy since then so yes, issues for the Democratic Party.

Yes, So the question, the question becomes, is that rectifiable or is it? I mean, they're already back into the game. And I'm talking I'm talking specifically the media. Now, I mean they have switched sides on two or three occasions, the media that we're talking about, the so called legacy media, And it's only it's only taken a word from somebody like a Bama or to to encourage that and effect that switch, so that you know, within a twenty four hour period, they're they're they're backing, they're backing Biden. Then all of a sudden, they're not backing Biden. And then then they were again, at least some of them were. And so the inconsistency wall, now that's the wrong thing to say, because they're very consistent in their in their approach, even though even though there's a large slice of the population here as well that realizes that they are dishonest and even criminal in some quarters. But it doesn't seem to penetrate the bulk of the Democrat Party.

No, but it has affected the reputation of the media and reach. If again, the polls have documented in the country after country declining trust in pretty much all the major institutions, and in most places the reputation of the media is almost the same as that of governments now, in other words, very low. This is the legacy media, and so more and more people are getting the information from other sources. Now. Having said that, I do have some sympathy for the legacy media in that clearly they have been under great pressure and stress, even from the revolutions in technology that has troy the old model of if not a generous profitability, at least viable profitability. And they're losing money and you saw that. I forget the huge amount that the Washington Post has been losing, for example, and the owner came and said, you know, you're losing this much per day. The people are not interested in reading what you're writing. So that message will sooner or later I have to either get through or the leading examplars of legacy media will die whither are on the vine, and the next to come under stress will be the publicly funded broadcasters. I don't think those models are viable either. I just I think they'll go to subscription model and will have to be forced to survive. And of course it's not true that it's not necessarily the case that the case for publicly funded broadcasting is as valid today as it was when they were first set up.

Well, there's plenty of discussion about it from time to time, when when a crisis arises and you find that the investment that the population is putting into into the government owned benures simply isn't isn't going anywhere and not achieving anything now, and and so we we should we should move on. I was going to ask you anyway, We've we've already discussed a fair bit of politics, but the state of the world in general. You with your experience, and we've emphasized that on numerous occasions, but your your United Nations experience and what came from it. What is your interpretation of where the world is at at the moment out leaving America aside.

Well, there's several things. On the one hand, there's little well different theaters of the gathering storm and thenations that seem to keep ratcheting up. Ukraine is still a problem in Europe. The Middle East is getting worse rather than better, and it certainly looks as though with the Gaza situation under control by Israel, from Israel's point of view, the tension might be ratting up on the northern border with regard to his vola in Lebanon. So there's that, and then of course the unresolved issue with Iran. We keep. There's no reason to feel any less worried about what's happening in East Asia around the South China Sea and Taiwan issue Korean Peninsula. I don't think it's any worse, but it's not got any easier either. I think the subcontinent at the moment, with the exception of what's volatility domestic volatility in Bangladesh, at least in international politics of continent, is perhaps a bit less fertile. And I was actually pleased with the outcome of the election in India in terms of putting a check on the authority intendencies of the government without necessarily throwing them out to plunge in thea into instability. And I think across the Western world in the meantime, the thing that vories me in terms of the centralization of power, firstly in the central government and then in the office of the Prime Minister, and the growth of the power of the state at the expense of the freedoms and liberties of citizens. That remains of concern, certainly in the UK. I think their indication that the Starmer government is going in for a massive emputy, rapid expansion of the techno bureaucratic pombocratic if there is such a word state as well rather than and that will have the inevitable effect of producing freedom. And I think the international trends again reflect the centralization of power and influence in the global alliance of the technocratic elite. So I think at some stage this disconnect between what the people are prepared to tolerate. You see the pushback in Europe, and I think it's going to come here as well. And I don't mind not about New Zealand now, but the pushback as the individual costs of the net zero green agenda become obvious, people are saying, no, we're not going to we are not prepared to pay that price. And we don't see that, you know, but if you look at the health infrastructure, for example, we don't see why you should prioritize the health of the planet against the alleged threat of global warming over the needs of our health today. And yet you've got the wh or expanding sentacles to embrace climate change as a health threat. You've got medical counsels in various places doing the same thing. So those things are on top of the geopolitical tensions, and you just get the same sense that at some point some thing's got to give, which was in a sense in a strange way, if you know what I mean. I think that was also the case with the assassination attempt from Trump. The qualification, the abuse was getting to extreme youth against sense that something had to give, and that happened. So there's some release point of pressure, some valve that will release the pressure that's going to Europe somewhere or other, is my sense. So the existing institutions of golobal governors meant to manage all this peaceably smoothly, there proving less and less fit for purpose, and that gap between the institutions of governance, both nationally and internationally and the people's needs and desires and expectations, that gap is putting stress both on national government systems and global government systems which are more Which is a more abstract way of making the same argument.

There's so many tangents we could spike off on from from what you've just said. But I'm intrigued with your one word of thought. This goes against the grain of your your background in the United Nations, especially as a as a sorry, what's the word, Assistant Secretary general.

As sex general.

Yeah, well, let me let me just let me spit this out. I'm see you and I travel. I've discovered in the same boat on numerous issues, and climbing climate change is one of them. But I'm looking at a headline and I can't even tell you where I got it from because I printed it and it's got no reference to it. But the headline is climate change and man made co to the biggest con in history. I know that it's from a legitimate site, but I can't can't recall which one because I've had it for a while. But at the very last paragraph, humans attempting to eliminate CO two from the atmosphere is equivalent to some evil fictional plant demon attending to eliminate attempting to eliminate oxygen from the atmosphere, causing the mass asphyxiation of the entire human race. Just as eliminating oxygen is genocide against humans, eliminating carbon dioxide is genocide against plants. Now, do you get the feeling that this is starting to make progress and sink through some rather thick brains.

I think so. And it's through the governments as well, not certainly not in Australia at the moment, but you know, this year the Opposition party has at least committed to reopening the domestic nuclear energy debate. So there is that progress, and they're I think of reading the room in the global level and the States and in Europe. And you had the commitment from I think on this board Van Vat, who let's say, said are the like more likely winners at this stage in November, they are committed to reversing the green agenda completely and very urgently. In fact, Trump and his acceptance speech went back to his drill, Baby drill, and Vance made a reference to that as well. So so I think that is getting through. But the problem is there's been so much indoctrination and brainwashing that I'd be surprised if a majority of young people realize that carbon dioxide is absolutely essential to plant life. And I don't think most of them would know or would even believe you if you told them that there has been actually a greening of the world with increased warmth, nor would they know that the evidence, all the available research shows that in relation to extreme weather conditions, ten times as many people in the world die from extreme cold as from extreme heat. When has there been a time when climate has not changed? And in relation to what you're thinking about the United Nations, I don't think it helps anyone for the Second General to start using the hyperbolic language of we have moved on from climate from globe warming to global boiling. When that that's just irresponsible, extremist language.

We're all interested, I think, to know from your perspective when the un changed. Can I say as dramatically as it seems to have over over over a period of time, but it when when did it start?

It's been well, it's it's been gradual, I suppose, And I think you'd have to tie to what I was saying earlier as the functions that the core functions of government are delegated from the legislature and the executive to the administrative state and the technocrats. That has become reflected in the international organizations as well, because it's the same technocratic elite that moves society base back and forth. And so if we were to read take the agenda and vest the real powers of the functioning of government back in the parliament and back in the executive and take it away from the bureaucracy and the judiciary, then I think you see that reflected in the United Nations as well. The United Nations is not an independent actor. It is still subject to control and ownership by governments, and so if the politicians took charge of it more, then I think you see that transferred across to the United Nations as well. So I think we have to be careful not to blame the United Nations directly as such, it does what member states want. Policy is set by the member states, not by the International Secretariat. Even the Secretary General and call for things, but he doesn't get to vote on these issues.

What about the influence that the shall we say, the darker nations have and I don't mean color, I mean in outlook on things. And I'm and I'm thinking of I'm thinking of the dictatorial countries specifically.

Why is why they don't they don't they don't have so much power in the human system. It's it's mainly in the Security Council. It is the Western powers in the General Assembly that there's they don't have a such a huge block. It's on Israel, for example. The agenda is driven by the Middle East and Islamic countries, not not by the digitarial countries so much or not similarly on other issues is different coalitions. And there are some countries that are influential swing states, and that includes India. It used to include Sweden, for example, Canada used to be, but it's not at the moment of the five permanent members Western, Democratic, UK, France, USA. I think we need to remember that the most of the UN agenda is still under the West control and the worker then that comes from the West and is driven by the West.

Okay, you mentioned Israel momentarily, what to quote you? As the liberal international order fades, institutions that were created as part of the euphoria of liberal internationalism are becoming unmoored from foundational values as rather than in contact of the ICC.

Yeah.

Yeah, as relative power is ceded to newly powerful but illiberal countries. Western powers that designed, created and provided stewardship stewardship in the post forty five order losing their controlling grip of the institutions of that order speaking of Israel, and this you wrote this, of course, of the opening paragraph of the ICC's legitimacy and integrity, the important word deficits. So what is your take then on Israel's performance to date in the wars?

Firstly, that general argument that I was making there is a continuation of the argument that I've been making since my book on the UN and back in two thousand and six, So it's not actually new, but the trend has continued and has intensified. And I was raising these issues then already, and I remember writing, for example, in relation to the death penalty, by what technocratic grace or by what legitimacy does the United Nations claim a state of grace above and beyond that of its member states when it comes to the death penalty. So it's those the general questions. And I was raising the same issue in relation to the piece efforts in these teamor and you know that when they were deciding that they would disband the or not pursue criminal justice against the previous regime in relation to each timor and the new government and Indonesia's and that agreement of predcision, that these are issues that were raised in relation to trying to and conflicts in Africa. So all that was there, but it has intensified. The difficulty is now since then, the rise of China has become more obvious, and inevitably the major powers of the era will seek and will gain commensurate influence in the institutions of governance of the time. And the fact that for the first time in history, we're going to have a global hedgemon that's not English speaking, that's not liberal, that's not democratic, that's not capitalist, and doesn't engage in international diplomacy in the English language. All that's creating a lot of discomfort for us, as it as bound to and as it should. So that's a different issue now. In relation to Israel and the United Nations and ICJ, the World Court and the International Criminal Court, you've got a peculiar situation where different parts of the UN system either defer excessively to Israel or focus excessively on it and condemn it excessively disproportionately to compare to others. So the Human Rights Council, for example, puts Israel in the talk more than any other country, and that clearly cannot be justified on any objective basis. On the other hand, in the Security Council, Israel has got away with defiance of United Nations or resolutions more than any other single country. The World Court has ruled on the legality of Israeli occupation in terms of international law. I think the World Court is right. At the International Criminal Court, the prosecutor has sought a restaurance, but the judges have not yet granted that. I hope they don't give it. If they do, it creates a different set of difficulties. But now you relate that to what my basic argument has been for two to three decades now in relation to these issues, and that is the international level, you have a development of legal institutions and criminal justice institutions the stand by themselves without the supporting infrastructure of a legislature, a bureaucracy, an executive, and that reverses the historical trend. Domestically, a functioning legal system apart from the legislature and the executive comes at the end of establishment of institutions of governmance, not at the very start. They don't, for example, have enforcement capabilities themselves. And it's when the basic first auto political question are settled and the purpose of the state is reflected in our constitutional constitution arrangement of government parts, whether in written constitution or by convention, then you can start having separation of judiciary from the others. But at the moment we don't have that internationally. And should the Prime Minister of Israel be welcome in Australia or New Zealand, or the UK or India. Should the President of Suddam be welcome in South Africa or in India. These at the moment are not principally legal questions to be addressed, announcewered with the legal analysis and passing of what things are. They are primarily political questions and for us they are foreign policy questions. And I don't think it works to subordinate every other calculation to the determination of the law and the criminal law as judged by deucocrats sitting in the Hague. And that was a mistake that was made, and it's coming home the implications of that. How can you reconcile the fact that the United States and Russia and China are not members of the International Criminal Court, have not subjected themselves to the discipline and authority of the Criminal Court, have not signed the wrong statute and yet have a vote in the Security Council on matters that come up in relation to the Criminal Court. India has not signed the NPT, doesn't get a vote on it. United States has not signed the Convention of the Law of the Sea, doesn't have a vote on it or any role in it. So there are all these compromises that we thought, well, we'll just keep quite about it because we want progress on this. But the result is it's creating political difficulties and I think it was a British Prime Minister Rishisu Nakhu said in relationship to the ICC request for the rest worried by the prosecutor. This doesn't advance any of the political agendas. It doesn't help to seek relief of the hostages. In fact, it delete it. They delays it. It will impede and obstruct at negotiating a compromise, and it doesn't help in a relation to the two test to state solution as an ultimate objective of these negotiations either And here's right on the practical side, all the three parts agender were obstructed rather than facilitated by that. But of course the legal answer to that is well, that's not our concerned you're only looking at the law, and that's what I'm saying. The separation from law of law from politics doesn't work on the existing international conditions we wanted domestically, and we see the consequences of not having it with the weaponization of lawfare against Trump. But again, the political impact has been it has backfired on the Democrats. I'm glad you made it. You don't think, Yeah, I'm glad.

I'm glad you mentioned Trump again, just momentarily, because I was going to go back there off the off the back of what you've been saying, Can you give me a good reason why there are, as far as I know, three Trump X advisors or staff members who are in jail at the moment for declining to accept a subpoena to appear before a House.

Committee, and it's just been released. I think, who has one of them? Has that's been released to served his term? Yeah?

Okay, but but he served his term. And at the same time, the present Attorney General also declined to accept his invitations to appear before before the House committee, just refused basic basically stuck his nose in the air and told him what they could do with it. Now, where's the jail tour for him. That's this is only one, one single example of so many of similar situations. But I'm just wondering your thoughts.

Well, it goes back to the thing which is the enforcement arm, is the Department of Justice. So for that to happen, you need a change of administration, and that becomes a problem that I think it is. It is, It is an inconsistency, but it's not as bad really as as a prosecutor who campaigns on getting Trump and then bends and twists the law into a complete pretzel to pursue Trump. And that whole thing is just absolutely ridiculous, and I think it is a backside big time.

Got a little while to wait to see that, but I'm looking forward to you being right.

I don't think Trump would have had an easy ride to nomination of the Department Party if they had not pursued him so recklessly and so relentlessly. And they have proven his assertion that they're coming after him with everything they've got. They vilified him, they slandered him, they made it impossible for him to govern as a duly elected president, and the shootspath saying he doesn't accept election results. You have intelligence officers lied to the American public after before the last election, the fifty one intelligence officers senior intellience offices in relation to the Hunter Biden laptop story. Then they have tried to bankrupt him, they have tried to imprison him, and in the recent times they even had a shot at him. I mean, I'm using day in the general sense there because we don't know what because motivation was, but all that progressively, a lot of independents who would have found Trump too distasteful to vote for him have been angered enough and incensed enough at this overt politicization and weaponization of the justice system. Did they see that as a greater threat to democracy than Trump is? And there's lots of poor evidence to back that up.

Yes, there is Laighton Smith. So that is part one of our discussion with Ramesh Thicker. We will have part two in podcasts two forty nine. We get into Julian the Sanane and have a little discussion. We agreed this, we disagreed slightly. And reliance on technology, cash and the importance of it, and Western society's bent on feeding fuel into the fire that is consuming them and DEI they're just some of the Things A Podcast two forty nine. Over to the podcast for number two hundred and forty eight, missus producer.

You're looking very well, lighton. I'm great.

Got rid of the pesky cold after the plane flight, Well mostly I've got rid of it.

Yes, feeling one hundred percent excellent and the sun is shining, albeit that it's still chilly.

Could you want I want to get in a plane cold or no cold on planes and go somewhere warm.

That'll be good. Yes, all right, why don't you lead?

Layton Vincent says in the same week that the Reserve Bank has media releases about the brilliance and safety of its desired CBDCs to be rolled out across the country. We have what's been described as the largest IT disaster in history, grinding much of the world to a halt. All it took was a simple software update gone a right to shut down civilization and stop everybody.

In their tracks.

I'm thankful that we have about three hundred dollars in cash sitting in a drawer at home for such moments as these, so we can pop to the shops with some milk without queuing up with others who have bemused and frustrated at what's going on. Of course, my three hundred dollars won't last long, but this whole episode does highlight the fragility of unmodern world and that cash truly is king and always will be if given a chance. Cheers to the businesses who've been turning their noses up at the folding stuff. How's that working out for you? Still loving the podcast of more than five years later, and we really appreciate your hard work team, and long may these continue as long as you're keening.

Vincent, Vincent, that's very inspiring, Vincent. Who knows what it might have done, what it might have created? And I think that what you had to say was pretty correct now, David writes underneath the address for a video he has included. This video goes through the audio sequence of gunshots of fired at the Trump rally. Mike Adams, who made this video, is open to critique on his methodology, but believes that there were three shooters firing at t based on the audio files. Mike Adams also provides an update at the end of the video which suggests that one of the shooter positions was from the water tower, which gels with the previous video that I sent you that was produced by Clayton Morris at redacted. It's in your podcast. Your treatment stated that he found it hard to believe that there was a conspiracy to assassinate Trump. I would suggest that evidence is mounting daily from sources that this was indeed a conspiracy. From what has been discovered so far, mainly by independent media, it's become clear or becoming clear, that the twenty year old crooks did not act alone. Of course, the public will never get the full story as long as the corrupt FBI is involved in the investigation. They cannot even provide an update photo of crooks to the media. Yet we are told that a police officer took a photo of him when he was seen acting suspiciously prior to the start of the rally. Well, let's just say at this point that that doesn't mean that that the picture that the guy took the cop took was one of detail.

Or even on his face or whatever. We don't know.

As for George Treatman's comments regarding the Secret Service, it would appear that a large number of Trump's security detail were not actually Secret Service members. The DEI hires that were seen bumbling along the limo as Trump was taken away and did not inspire public confidence. It was like watching an old Keystone Cops movie starring Laurel and Hardy. I don't know, did that Laurel Hardy did Keystone Cops? Or you're too young to know, David, thank you. There's some there's a bit of a bit of an anticipation in your in your letter that I think we'd all be wise to just hang out a bit longer. And wait, I mean it is it is today, earlier today that whatever name is forgotten was before the House Committee, and she wouldn't answer any questions. We don't really know any more than what we did, do we And there's a lot of supposition that's going on. I'm just being cautious, that's all I mean. I I love the sound of a good conspiracy, to be honest, but I also like destroying them even more.

Leighton Claire says, I totally disagree with George's take on how fit the women and the Secret Service are. Maybe they have past tests in the field, but they are not fit for purpose. How can a person of any sex who has head and shoulders shorter than their protect tea possibly be seen as a good fit. The short person can't shield the protect tea and couldn't possibly get the much taller and heavier protect tea into safety. I heard on several occasions that when Reagan was shot, a Secret Service agent picked him up like a rag doll and got him into the waiting vehicle. A short person couldn't have possibly done that.

With Trump.

I don't usually talk politics, and my friends are apolitical, but they know where I stand. Twice in the past two weeks, when pushed with stupid comments about Trump by acquaintances, I've point blank told the speaker I was going to vote for him, and why they were dumbfounded. And that's from Claire, who I presume is in the States.

Yeah, yes, well, who knows what effect what you're saying to them might have. I mean, they're not being fed, they're not being fed or they're not receiving shall we say, proper information, And that's widely known now and it's just very frustrating. Late and I heard you discussing the female security personnel protecting Trump the other day. You should google and listen to the very entertaining the Late debate on Sky News Australia on fifteen July. What the panel discusses is so correct and obvious that you must agree that females are not suited to that role.

I'm female.

By the way, listen to the audio without subscribing to the visual show. The one on seventeen July is also worth listening to. I'm sure you'll get a giggle out of them. There are commentaries going all which way at the moment. I'll look, I'm the first to say that neither of the two main women that we're talking about in the service inspired confidence in anybody.

I don't think.

I don't know how they could with what was required, albeit that they were doing the best that they could. I know there's a letter here somewhere though, as a producer that somebody has a different.

Opinion to that. Have you got?

I must say I initially thought when I saw those pictures that the I know, look, granted, she was smaller than Trump, wasn't she can't deny that. But the one in the middle of those pictures I thought was incredibly brave, as the men were as well.

But I just mind add that there are so many There are so many versions and commentaries of various kinds over this that you've got people, unquestionably, you've got people seeing or hearing things that didn't happen, or they didn't really see, they just convinced themselves that they did.

I'm not saying that's anybody that's written to us today. It's just that.

It's patently obvious that until there is a proper inquiry, a proper inquiry and a neutral one, then we need more information. And then I say to myself quietly, will we ever get to know the real deal? I think it's just as unlikely as tomorrow's weather forecast.

Leighton Paul says Podcast two four seven was as good as ever. I enjoyed Jordan William's pragmatic view of tax The big highlight for me was George Friedman's consistent analysis of the American political system and the reasoning he provides for the current chaos. All in all, it is one of the best podcasts I've had the pleasure of listening to. George's input prompted me to reread The Geopolitical Future's special report The Geopolitics of the American President. That was well worth my effort as well. Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to the next podcast, says.

Paul, I might see if I can find that.

I will see if I can find that and quote it. If so, they're Latin and Carolyn missus producer.

If you don't mind, Carolyn's fine, thank you.

Following the events of the past two weeks, people must surely begin to either believe in the existence of conspiracy theories or the existence of God. Trump was being assassinated on live TV, and all he lost was part of his right here in a pretty small part by the look of it now, and he gained a political turnaround of epic proportions. Biden swore that he would remain in the presidential race, only to be taken by COVID and had his political campaign assassinated by the Democrats. It's a good way to put it, actually. Of course, the American leftist mainstream media tried to play down the inevitable MAGA tsunami coming their way. While Jordan Williams rightly lamented the lack of conservative media representing the population they serve, America does have media like the New New York Post, which reported that Secret Service officials repeatedly rejected Donald Trump's request for additional security in the two years before his assassination attempt, or before the assassination attempt. I hope America is reaching the good end of George Freeman's fifty year cyclical history, because America is severely broken, and the American political landscape is indeed a swamp. Will God save America or abandon her? We shall see in November later.

This is from Robin, who was referenced seeing the comments she made a week or so ago about petrol and cars.

Do you remember.

That that I was just contemplating my money saving Ah?

Yes, you were too well, Robin says, no, don't, especially in a European car. In a previous life, I was a motor mechanic. I still mess about with cars. My three V six lagooner has been on ninety one ever since I got it.

Not you. At one point when it.

Was low on gas, I had some fresh ninety eight left over from racing.

Why wasted?

I thought, after all, the computer will adjust it wrong, not in this car anyway. It became virtually undriveable. Fortunately it was my wife driving, not me. She was not best pleased, thought she would get stranded. It was almost worse than limp home mode. When I got to it, I wondered how she'd managed to drive it. It was a mission to reset the computer as I had no scan tool to reset, so battery disconnected, et cetera to clear the computer. Then about three adaption runs later and it was back to operating close to right. I moved it onto ninety five. We don't have ninety eight where I am, and I will never change the rating again. Some will say it doesn't matter, but in my experience it does. And I'm just coming home from a walk along the beach to the spit in Malulabar. HIVEH twenty one predicted today. That's from Robin time.

Time to go.

Finally from Ian Laydon, what a tumultuous week in US politics. We have the cardboard cutout that is Joe Biden finally exposing what we all knew at a photo of Donald Trump defiantly raising his fist in front of an American flag after being shot in the ear. I have to say that the photo reminded me of the one in Iwajima during World War II. One thing is for sure, Trump is now heading for a landslide victory. I can only imagine the chaos that would have followed in the US had the shooter succeeded. Even now, who knows what might follow the upcoming election. It will be better than the best movie Ian the landslide victory. You know, I was almost alone on the radio when I predicted that Trump would win in twenty sixteen, and I wasn't surprised at all, And everybody's stunned. And what I did to know how I knew. I'm not so convinced that it's going to be a landslide victory. Part of the reason is the same as well, going back to twenty twenty. You don't know what they're going to do. You don't know how they might do it. You just don't know, don't know, don't know. It's been interesting because a producer that a lot of people have been taught about. I saw a headline, Let's put it this way. I saw a headline how far will they go? Referring to the Democrats to stop him? And that surprised me for a particular reason. But I quickly worked out why. Patently, the author of that headline and the article that was under it wasn't availing themselves over the lengthy period of time that Trump was in office and since as to how he was dealt with by the media, and the media was less than honest. The media have been corrupt and liars from beginning to end. When I say the media, not everybody in the media, but the mainstream or legacy media as we were referring to it. It's an unknown at this point, and this could be. This could be even more tumultuous and disruptive to America and the world and what we've already seen. I'm not predicting anything. I'm just saying, keep the possibilities open mind. Thank you, business producer, Thanks later, see you next week.

Lectures over.

Now.

In the introduction, I mentioned that there was a piece by Oliver Hardwitch in the New Zealand Initiative, which I recommend you read. Europe is now on its own. But I have chosen a piece that is written by somebody else, C J. Hopkins, And all will be explained at a moment C. J. Hopkins, The People's Court of New Normal Germany, and I think it will become evident why I have chosen this lengthy as it is, every bit of it is worthy of our attention. Just when I thought things could not possibly get more shocked, kingly totalitarian in New normal Germany will or will be explained where I am being prosecuted in a criminal court for the second time for tweeting. The German authorities have gone and surprised me again. No, they haven't established an actual Nazi style people's court yet, And of course, there is absolutely no similarity between the current German justice system, which is totally fair and democratic and a paragon of impartial justice and the rule of law, and the People's Court of Berlin during the Nazi era. Nor is there any similarity between Nazi Germany and new normal Germany, that is modern day Germany. And I would never ever suggest that there was, as that would be intellectually lazy and tasteless and completely inaccurate and illegal. And well, let me fill you in on the latest. The Berlin Superior Court has set a date for my next sought crime trial. As regular readers will probably recall, my first thought crime trial was in January and ended with my acquittal. So the German authorities are putting me on trial again. Yes, they can do that in Germany. But wait, that's not the best part. The best part is at my new sought crime trial, this time in Berlin's Superior Court. Full scale anti terrorism security protocols will be affected in the courtroom. Everyone will be subjected to TSA style scanning and screening and will have to surrender all their personal possessions and hats and coats and head coverings to the security staff and completely empty their pockets of all items before entering the courtroom. No computers, phones, smart watches or any other potential recording devices will be allowed in the courtroom. Pencils and sheets of paper will purportedly be provided to members of the press by security staff. Members of the press and public will be limited to thirty five and after they have successfully passed their security screening that be cordoned off in the last five rows of the gallery in the very bank of the court room for security reasons and monitored by armed security staff. Now at a benefit of any new readers unfamiliar with me and my case, asaid, everything would be explained. I am not a terrorist. I am an award winning American playwright, novelist and political satirist. Have lived here in Berlin for twenty years. The German authorities have been investigating and prosecuting me since August of twenty twenty two. My case has been covered by the Atlantic, Racket News, a Multi polar and many other outbits, so I won't reiterate every little detail here.

Again.

Basically, I'm being prosecuted for spreading pro Nazi propaganda because I criticize the COVID mask mandates and tweeted the cover artwork of one of my books, The Rise of the New Normal Rank here's the cover artwork of that book, and he shows it on screen online. The other two images are the recent covers of Despiegel and Stern, two well known mainstream German magazines, which are not being prosecuted for spreading pro Nazi propaganda. As anyone even the German authorities can see, the Spiegel cover artwork uses exactly the same concept as the cover artwork of my book. The only difference is the Spiegel schwastiger is covered by the German flag, whereas the schwashticker on my book is covered by a medical mask. Both artworks are obviously intended as warnings of the rise of a new form of totalitarianism. Despiegel was warning about the alternative for Deutschland Party, the AfD, as was Stern with its Swashstiger floating in a Champagne class I was warning about what I dubbed the new normal Reich, the new nascent form of totalitarianism that emerged during twenty twenty to twenty twenty three, which is still very much on the rise, and which is thoroughly documented and analyzed in my book, which book was banned by Amazon in Germany. At the same time, the German authorities launched a criminal investigation of me and instructed Twitter to censor my tweets, which Twitter did. Would be interesting to see how the current owner of what is now x would respond to that. The pretext the court is citing for ordering these anti terrorism security protocols at my trial is ridiculous and infuriating. The court claims that the court room in which my trial is to take place is occasionally used for a certain high security trial. Therefore, according to the court, my trial must also be subjected to anti terrorism security protocols. Seriously, the court sent my attorney a fact setting forth this explanation, which is of course a load of horse droppings. The Berlin Superior Court is a huge building containing multiple court rooms, one or two of which are probably not subject to such anti terrorism security protocols. When high security trials are not taking place in them. No, the imposition of these anti terrorism security protocols is clearly a cynical ploy, intended a to suppress coverage of the trial, b to discourage the press and public from attending, and c to intimidate and harass me and my legal counsel at any members of the press and public who nevertheless attend the trial in spite of these security procedures, that they will be subjected to this cynical tactic, which is not an official press blackout, because journalists can still attend and attempt scribbled notes on their knees with the pencils and sheets of paper provided by the security staff. Comes as no real surprise. As I mentioned above, my case and my first trial got a fair amount of attention from the international press, enough to put the court on notice that my prosecution was being watched, as though it's no mystery why the German authorities would want to discourage any reporting on my do over trial in Superior Court. Also, the gallery was filled to capacity at my original trial in January, where I delivered a rather unusual closing statement to the court, which was then published and disseminated widely.

In Germany.

So again it is no real mystery why the Superior Court wants to discourage members of the public from attending this new trial by threatening to subject them to these humiliating security protocols, and why it has limited the gallery size to only thirty five seats. I assume the German authorities, and by authorities I mean the Berlin District Prosecutor's office, the Berlin District Court and whatever other authorities are intent on punishing me and making an example of me for daring to criticize the government's edicts during twenty twenty to twenty twenty two, that is suspension of the constitutional rights, mask mandates, segregation, the banning of protests, etc. I assume these authorities are particularly motivated to prevent the press from covering this second trial in Superior Court, because, from what I understand of the German legal system, they are going to do me. Do comes in qrites do me, that is, convict me this time. The way the German legal system works if they want to do you is one, you are acquitted in the lower criminal court too, the district prosecutor appeals the verdict to the Superior Court. Three, the Superior Court overturns your acquittal, and then four the prosecution court goes back to the original criminal court, which stages a new trial at which you'll be found guilty, because once the superior court has overruled your acquittal, the criminal court will convict you based on the superior court's ruling. There's almost parallel, certainly a sample of what Trump's been going through in the States. At which point you will appeal and on and on and on. It will go until you're broke, or until you give up fighting because you're just so effing exhausted. I'm not making this up. This is how the People's Court of New Normal Germany, that is, the post COVID German justice system, which again bears no resemblance whatsoever to the People's Court of Berlin Nazi Germany, or to the courts in the Soviet Union during the Stalin era, or any other totalitarian justice system. Close brackets. This is how it works in New Normal Germany. If you are a critic of the authorities and refuse to meekly accept whatever punishment they want to summarily dish out for whatever they deem to be your thought crimes. Ai fabler I hope you're listening to this, but hey, at least they're not going to take me out and put me up against a wall and shoot me like they did with political criminals in Nazi Germany and the USSR. So I suppose I should be grateful. I have to work on that. If you think my case is an aberration, it isn't. There are many many other people critics of the government's COVID measures during the twenty twenty to twenty three period who are being persecuted and made examples of. Most of these people do not have the financial resources to pay law is to fight these prosecutions, so they plead guilty to the charges and pay the fines, which are typically much less than what they would face in attorney's fees. Being somewhat of a public figure, I thought it was my responsibility not to do that. I'm extremely grateful to everyone who has donated to my legal defense fund, which is how I've been able to cover my legal expenses. There's enough left in that fund to cover this next trial in Superior Court, so I'm okay for now. Financially. I mentioned that because people are already asking how they can send me money, what people can do if they want to do something helpful is make as much noise as possible about what's happening, not just in Germany but throughout all the West. Because what is happening is well what I tried to capture and analyze in my book. The powers that be are going totalitarian on us. They are gradually and not so gradually, phasing out the so called liberal or democratic rights and principles that it was necessary to plicate the Western masses with during the Covid War era, which it is no longer necessary to do beyond a certain superficial point. I have published three books of essays documenting this transition to a new global capitalist form of totalitarianism. So I'm not going to go on and on about it here, but that's what all the censorship is about. That's what all the manufactured hysteria, fermented hatred, fanaticism, the permanent state of emergency and crisis and culture wars, the cults of personality, the bombardment of our minds with absolutely meaningless nonsense, the naked displays of force, the blatant instrumentalization of the justice system to punish political dissonance, not just here in Germany but throughout the democratic West, democratic being again in quotes, that is what all this is about. So I'll keep my readers posted on the details of my upcoming trial in Berlin Superior Court. My attorney is objecting to these security protocols. Of course, we'll see how that goes. In the meantime. Instead of sending me money this time, maybe try to step back from all the mass hysteria and hatred that we're being inundated with and see the big picture. It isn't pretty. Help spread the word about the new totalitarianism, about the phasing out of our democratic rights. I don't care which side of whatever you're on Trump, Biden, Palestine, Israel, the culture wars, the cancel campaigns, covid elon musk Russia, whatever, and neither do the powers that be. Take a step back and try to see the bigger picture, the forest instead of just the trees, and then make us much noise about it as you can. We are heading somewhere, very ugly, somewhere most of us can't imagine. Some of us will get there first, but all of us will be there together eventually. My story is just one example of what it'll be like there in that ugly place. It isn't really a story about Germany. It's a story about the end of the myth of democracy and the rule of law and all that good stuff. As Frank Zapper once so eloquently explained, the illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery. They'll pull back the curtains, they'll move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater. It's something to be hold. That brick wall is especially up close and personal. You'll see when you get there. I'll save you a seat. Now, I know that was lengthy, but I would have run sixteen odd minutes. But the point being that there is a message there that I believe needs to be respected. You can say only time will tell, and I'd go with that. But nevertheless, here, there, and everywhere there are things taking place that, unless they're stymied, unless they're terminated at this point, will pick up a pace. Don't just ask me our CJ. Hopkins, and ask lots of other people. Ask the people in the in the Free Sweets Union, just what they're confronted with, and you'd think, why would it ever happen here? The answer is simply, in the end, it can. And that is where we shall depart, probably, thank goodness from podcast number two hundred and forty eight. Don't forget if you'd like to correspond. I love your correspondents on anything and everything today on this podcast, I should say probably. The mail is latent at Newstalk SIB dot co dot Nz, Carolyn at NEWSTALKSB dot co dot Nz.

Love your correspondence.

All some good stuff in podcasts two four eight, So we shall rejoin you very shortly, and don't forget part two of Ramesh the Kur in two forty nine. And I'm looking forward to two fifty for more than one reason, but we'll reveal that at the time. So all that is left to say is thank you so much for listening, and we shall talk soon.

Thank you for more from Newstalk sed B. Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio

The Leighton Smith Podcast

After 33 years behind the Newstalk ZB microphone, Leighton can’t give it up completely. There were s 
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