Bryan Kohberger has said he looks forward to being exonerated. In the final episode of The Idaho Massacre, his defense team begins to lay out their strategy to prove his innocence.
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The accused Idaho student killer, Brian Coberger, was back in court today.
Appearing in a Moscow, Idaho courtroom for a pre trial hearing as his lawyers prepared to defend him against four counts of first degree murder and now the death penalty.
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio episode ten Building a Defense. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Kat's Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell. When Brian Cobeger walked into the courtroom on the afternoon of Tuesday, June twenty seventh, he looked different. He carried himself differently. Flanked by his defense team Anne Taylor, Jay Logstin and Alyssa Masseth, Coburger entered the courtroom wearing a dark suit and tie with a white dress shirt. His face was clean shaven, his hair styled with jel. Gone was the bright orange prison jumpsuit that the twenty eight year old quadruple murder suspect had worn for most of his previous court appearances. In another world, the former PhD criminology student looked like he could be testifying as an expert witness for another case rather than appearing as a murder suspect. But on June twenty seventh, Coburger, who was accused of brutally murdering Kaylee Gonsalvez, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Nathan Chapin, was simply in the Alida County courtroom to listen to his lawyers begin to lay out their defense and fight to keep him from being executed.
All right, this is State of Idah O versus Brian Koberger on mister Coberger is JIMI Corp.
In the days leading up to this much anticipated hearing, there was speculation that Coberger's defense team would ask the judge to force the prosecution to provide information and documents on a wide range of topics. However, before the defense and prosecution made their presentations to Judge John Judge, he first addressed the issue of cameras in the courtroom. A month earlier, Coberger's defense team had asked the judge to remove press cameras. They worried the continued focus on Coburger my prejudice potential jurors against Coburger at his trial, especially as analysts legal commentators and social media influencers pick apart Coberger's body language and every blink of his eye. Yet, a month after the defense made the request, the judge had not made a decision, instead opting to warn at the start of the hearing about how the media should conduct themselves and cover the courtroom.
I have deferred my decision about cameras. One of the things that's going to be really important, that is very important is that the people with the camera and media need to follow the rules.
And we've had some issues where people were pushing the envelope, particularly focusing on the tables where council sits. I would prefer if you want to continue to have cameras in.
This courtroom, is to back off make sure that we just have the totality of what is happening in the court and not just focus, for example, on this co River's face.
With the media warned, the hearing turned the defense's motions. In the days leading up to this much anticipate hearing, there was speculation that Coberger's defense team would ask the judge to force the prosecution to provide information and documents on a wide range of topics from the investigation into the suspected white vehicle, to the grand jury proceedings, to cell phone data, to the FBI's DNA records. For weeks, Coberger's defense team had been sending signals that they were unhappy with the slow pace that the prosecution had been turning over key documents. Here's defense attorney and Taylor, and during the course of.
The last several months, there has been a lot of discovery that's been requested in a lot of business supply. I come here asking the court to compel discovery. I'm seeing and order directing that we received his discovery by not.
Seeing any other kind of spanking.
I don't saying that the prosecutor has done something wrong. I've come here saying that there are things that we have the disagreement about whether I should get them or when I should get them, and we see it.
Co or to in this regard.
Once the hearings started, defense Attorney An Taylor limited the scope of a request to two single topics. First, she requested the prosecution turn over the investigative and training records for three specific Idaho police officers.
Are one of the Courtant Council to be aware, it's not a psiane's division either real items that are really necessary to investigate this pace into paranis or coworker's events.
Taylor argued the defense needed more information about the criminal investigation that led to Coberger's arrest in December of twenty twenty two, and these three officers since they were at the center of that investigation. Taylor said, one officer interviewed a key witness at the scene of the murders, and another conducted dozens of interviews with witnesses and attended the victim's autopsies.
You're one of these.
We have not asked for training records for every officer that acidity thing to do with the case. I would not want to stand here and what the court think that this is an exhaustive list of the officers that we might need.
Training records for that.
These are three officers that we've requested or in the stake has indicated they're not willing to get us as training records. These three officers are officers that have each conducted critical interviews with critical witnesses in the case, made decisions about the interviews, made decisions about evidence, and conducted other kinds of investigations. We seek their training records to understand that their processes.
Taylor added that this request is not unusual, nor did you believe it was a particularly difficult request.
I have often received training records where I under state police officers in the correporation of other cases during the course of my career. They are imperative for us to understand the specialty in interrogating and interviewing people and from making the decisions that they made with regard to things taken as evidence in the case where Base followed back on Will not followed that.
Leida County Deputy Prosecutor Ashley Jennings, however, responded and said that none of these officers would be called to testify at the trial, and that hundreds of officers worked on the investigation that led to the arrest of Brian Kobeger. She said she feared this motion could become a burden for the prosecution.
Our concern with allowing training records for these view which we can't understand why there's a substantial.
Need for these particular ones.
When it opened the door to us then having to go and get obtained training records for these hundreds of investing of officers who've been involved somewhat was your outside of our controls.
Taylor pushed back on this concern and reminded the court that Coburger was facing the death penalty and as the.
Quarter is aware, the state has fiblets to notice of intantacy, death.
Pansims of cold over.
These are critical relevant materials, all of them, including the police training records. They're necessary for us to prepare and present part of fancies or co worker. They're necessary for us to do our investigation. They're necessary for us to prepare our case and our motion tactics meaning forward.
These are things that we need to have.
They're a heightened standard now that the state's filence notice is intent to seek death and he's a very relevant critical bits of information. They are discoverable and were asking for order the things applied to us to.
Judged on judge that he would consider both sides of the argument and would issue a written decision at a later date. After ask the court to force the prosecution to provide the Idaho police training records, and Taylor also asked the judge to rule on two previous requests regarding FBI records. Taylor asked for records from the FBI's cellular analysis survey team. The CAST team had been brought in to help process data from Coberger's mobile phone.
These are bits an investigation that the FBI conducted that relate to mister Coberger's cell phone and the State has relied on that in their appidated to say that mister Coberger was in certain places at certain times.
The original requests for FBI's cell phone data and White Hondai vehicle information was made weeks prior.
So these are bits of information and analysis that's been done since December.
We are now at the end of June.
We do not have those records yet.
Run they are something that's been relied on by the stape for the puciapidata to a restuens to comorner as well as to obtain.
A variety of search ones.
It's information that the state has agreed we should have, so we asked support for an.
Order with the deadlines with that prosecution, however, insisted they had turned over everything in their possession.
We have discovered or talk to me about, thirteen thousand pages of reports, thirteen thousand photographs, over ten thousand tips, and over fifteen one terror rites of audio and video information. Miss Taylor has everything that we have what she is seeking as a specific report from the theodcast team, which I have indicated to her, is in its final stages of review, and we are anticipating receiving sooner rather than later, and as soon as.
We do, we will send that over.
Judge sewn. Judge ruled on the spot for the defense and suggested the FBI documents relating to the cell phone data and Whitehaun Dilancha vehicle information should be turned over no later than July fourteenth. Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Since we haven't had a substantial update on this case in a while, there was a lot of hype for this hearing, and while it was substantial, it didn't quite have the same omph we thought it might.
To your point, it was extremely short, just thirty minutes. For note, pre trial hearings can last anywhere from two minutes to two hours, depending upon the complexity of the case. But since there was seemingly a lot to cover, this went much shorter than expected.
Well, that could be because a lot of what we thought might get brought up didn't remember. Three days after the announcement of the indictment back in May, the defense asked for thirty four specific pieces of information from the grand jury proceedings, all the transcripts, recordings, and evidence, even the jurors names. Originally, the defense request for grand jury information was supposed to be part of the hearing on the twenty seventh, but then it wasn't, though it does appear that the lawyers are talking behind the scenes to try to come up with an agreement on this issue.
The other big issue that we thought was going to be part of the hearing, and this is a big one, was the defense's request for the documents related to the DNA and the FBI's effort to build out this family tree. Like we discussed earlier, that family tree is what led investigators to Coburger. The state ended up asking for more time to respond in the judge granted it.
But the issue of the DNA, how it was collected, how it was handled, and how it was used, seems to be a growing issue and it is not going away anytime soon.
So I believe there has to be a pre trial hearing in terms of determining whether or not this is good or whether it is outside the ability to say yes, the procedure they used was proper and the eventual swab that they used for traditional DNAs admissible. That's going to be a serious because this is a DNA case.
Since the first time DNA was used in nineteen eighty seven to convict a suspect in the United States, DNA has played a major role in criminal investigations and in securing convictions. While the statistical connection between the DNA taken from the knife sheath found of the crime scene and the DNA taken from Brian Coberger's cheek seems very straightforward and in line with how DNA is usually used in criminal investigations, attorney and former prosecutor Stephen Greenberg says there could be a small chance this DNA evidence is not even admissible at Coberger's trial because of the unique role the FBI played in narrowing the search down to Brian Coburger. Here's Stephen Greenberg.
It has to be a pre trial here in terms of whether or not the DNA evidence will be admissible at all because of the way they got there. There's a number of issues that come into play, because if you remember, they tried a whole number of things before they outsourceed to the Bureau, and let's remember this you know the f and FBI is federal. This is not a federal case. There's no US attorney involved. This is a state prosecution in a small town in Idaho. And I'm not so sure how sophisticated the police and prosecutors are. There's a chain of custody issue, because you know, they sent this thing out and who knows where it went, who knows who who was using it.
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. After local investigators found the knife sheath cover under Madison Mogan's comforter, they checked it for DNA and found a very small amount on the button of the knife sheath. Investigators then ran the DNA through a national criminal database, but the DNA from the knife sheath did not produce any matches. Instead of giving up, the DNA information was then sent to the FB, who passed it on to a private laboratory named Authrum, which then began to look for relatives of the DNA sequence in publicly available genealogy databases. Ultimately, genetic genealogists combed through hundreds of names connected to the DNA and narrow down the likely DNA profile to Brian Koberger. Greenberg says because this type of genetic genealogy method is so new and untested in the courts, the defense will likely challenge its admissibility in a pre trial hearing and will put both FBI and AUTHORAM officials under oath.
There will have to be evidentiary hearings, see, because it's all going to go to the issue of whether the court's going to let in this evidence. The judge will have to have pre trial hearings, and these people will be on the stand because it goes to the heart of the case in terms of the issues that we've been talking about. So now they'll take the stand pre trial, and they'll take the stand during the trial.
And even if the judge allows the DNA to use in the trial, Coberger's defense is likely to challenge it at every turn.
There were a universe of other people who came up when they did the non traditional okay, the genetic and why can't we have those names? Did they follow up on anybody other than this one defendant? So yeah, the issues, even if the judge allows it in that will be cross examination material for the defense. So if the main issue and the only issue by which a jury can find this guy guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is DNA. However, all I need is write one juror for a mistrial, And if the judge does let it in, it's still going to be as serious. They're going to open on it, they're going to cross examine on it, and they're going to close on it.
Because that's the case.
The Coburger defense team cannot challenge the DNA in a pre trial hearing until it receives all of the FBI and off from paperwork from the prosecution, And so far, the prosecution has refused to turn over the FBI documents, claiming they don't have the information, hinting that the FBI hadn't or wouldn't turn over the information. Instead, the prosecution has asked the judge to allow for more time to respond to the defense's request. Greenberg says the delay in turning over DNA information is unusual and unlike the FBI, which has a long history of being on the cutting edge of using science to solve crimes.
Makes no sense to me. Well, let's remember this. The responsibility is to prosecutors. The FBI here was acting as an independent contractor, right they were investigating the case as they would if it were a federal case. They were just asked to do this one particular task, So whoever they reported to was somebody in the prosecutor's office. It's a prosecutor's responsibility to see to it that they get all the information they need. Would the FBI with actually withhold information from the people who hired them to do the lab work that being the prosecutor makes no sense to me, no sense at all.
And if for some reason the FBI is reluctant and doesn't want to turn over the genetic genealogy information, Greenberg says, the bureau won't have a choice if the judge orders the information to be turned over to the defense.
Everybody who was within the jurisdiction of that court, which obviously the FBI in this case is because they put themselves into the case. The law of the case is what the judge says, it is okay, he says, turn it over. They turn it over.
But with the start of the trial nearing, the clock is ticking, and every day which the defense is without this key DNA information makes the October second start date for the trial more and more unlikely.
Coburger's lawyers asked, and the judge said yes.
One week after the June twenty seventh pre trial hearing, Brian Coberger's defense team scored a small but potentially important victory. Judge John Judge ruled that the prosecution must give the Coburger's defense team access to the training records of the three Idaho police investigators the defense team deemed are at the center of the investigation. The judge said of July fourteenth deadline, writing that the defense adequately articulated the role each of the officers played in interviewing witnesses and finding and collecting potential evidence. However, the issue of the FBI DNA documentation was still left unresolved.
It's an important victory, and the reason is what they're going to try to prove it is that either these police officers who were first on the scene were inexperienced or that these police on the scene at first didn't follow whatever training information they were given. But the long insured of it is there's going to be a serious issue about how the crime scene was handled and how well trained these particular officers were. And obviously the judge felt this was important or he wouldn't have ordered the turnover of this material.
Defense turney Zan Taylor argued a week earlier at the pre trial hearing that the defense needed to better understand the methods the investigators use to exclude other suspects and to zero in on Coburger. Stephanie and Jeff, followed by Stephen Greenberg.
Does this mean that the defense is going to go after the detectives? Are they just trying to question the motives of the detectives. It seems like such a stretch. It reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial, for example, when they went after LAPD detective Mark Furman back in the day. Again, is this strategy or a stretch?
The defense's job is to explore every possible angle, and we don't know exactly what their strategy is yet, but this request certainly points in that direction.
All that to be said, it must be so difficult for the family members to be listening to all of the back and forth, and we just want to be clear that our hearts go.
Out to all of them.
So it's a defense going to go after the police, But they're not going to go after the police per se. But they're going to go after the individual officers who are responsible for being the first on this crime scene and handling evidence.
In a previous court filing, the defense tried to undermine and poke holes in the state's case against Coppager by accusing the prosecution of not being transparent and hiding their entire case. They have also in pre trial motions raised issues about how investigators use the DNA sample to zero in on Copager. Attorney Stephen Greenberg says this is likely part of a defense strategy to attack not the final conclusions of the DNA results, but the initial process of collecting and analyzing the DNA from the crime scene.
I do believe that if the judge let's in the DNA evidence, things like this in terms of casting doubt on how the entire investigatory process was handled, goes into this whole issue. Is the DNA any good or is it not any good? Did they purposely focus on this guy? Are there are other reputative defendants out there? So that is why the judge, I believe, turned it over. And I think it's an important victory for the public defender's office. Is it a good idea to go after the police? And I would say if you're an inexperienced lawyer, Yeah, you might do that. An experienced lawyer will not go after the police per se as a particular group of individuals who were responsible for taking care of our safety, but rather the particular officers who were involved.
Let's stop here for another break. One week after the hearing, as Americans across the country were celebrating the Fourth of July, and eerie video was uploaded to the Internet. The leaked surveillance footage from a nearby apartment complex at one three three zero Linda Lane appears to capture the moments before, during, and after the Grizzly murders. The security camera is from a parking lot just a few hundred yards away from the three story house on King Road, and it is just one of several camera views investigators have access to. This video cannot be independently verified, and due to the gag order, a verification is unlikely. Though it is timestamped Sunday, November thirteenth, twenty twenty two and begins at three point fifty nine in the morning. Since being posted, this video has been removed countless times. Much of what appears in the footage lines up with official statements from the probable cause affidavit. In fact, the leaked video seems to validate key parts of the PCA. On an otherwise dark and quiet night, the first sign of movement in the video comes at roughly four h five am. A light, possibly white, sedan pulls up on the street in front of the camera. Its headlights light up the screen. The vehicle stops for a few seconds at least five, before turning around and driving away. According to the probable Cause Affidavid suspect, Vehicle one, as Coburger's car is described by the document, was seen on other cameras in the area as early as three twenty nine a m. The PCA says Vehicle one makes three initial passes by the eleven twenty two King Road residents. Then, during a fourth pass at four oh four am, Vehicle number one is seen unsuccessfully trying to park in front of a nearby apartment complex before turning around. This appears to be the sequence caught on the leaked video. About ninety seconds later, at four oh seven a m, there is a sound of a short car horn and the camera at thirteen thirty Linda Lane again captures a vehicle driving by. This time, the vehicle does not stop and instead continues driving back towards King Road, though it isn't clear if this is vehicle number one and Brian Coburger. The PCA does not mention a fifth loop around the neighborhood. At four thirteen am, the camera appears to pick up the sound of a car that could possibly be Xana Kernodle's food driver departing after dropping off her door dash order at four to twelve am. Over the course of the next few minutes, the camera picks up multiple sounds, though none are clear. There are odd sounds and thuds. At four twenty one am, there is a loud sound that appears to be a car quickly moving. According to the probable cause affidavids, this sound happens at the exact time. At another camera angle shows suspect Vehicle one leaving the neighborhood at a very high rate of speed, but this isn't the final sound. Roughly two minutes later, at four twenty three, at the exact time investigators say the crime was ending, someone gets into a large, dark vehicle, likely in SGV, outside of the Linda Lande security camera. First you hear the door slamming, then the engine starting. The car leaves quickly, but by no means is it speeding away or driving recklessly out of the parking lot. So who was this person? Did they live in one of the nearby apartments? Where were they going and where had they been? There is no mention of anyone else in the probable cause affidavit. Were they just an innocent bystander completely unaware of the horrific murders that had just happened a few yards away? And did police identify this individual and the vehicle? Did police talk to and clear this person? Or was this individual somehow connected to the brutal murders of four young students with a lifetime of opportunity ahead of them, Did Brian Coberger have an accessory to murder? And is there DNA that can prove it? More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Mascer is produced by Stephanie lah Decker, Jeff Shane Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi. Music by Jared Aston The Idaho Massacre is a production of iHeart Radio and Kati's Studios. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Justice is something that takes different shapes for four ont