The Habit

At the beginning of Winnie the Pooh, Christopher Robin asks the narrator, “Could you very sweetly tell Winnie the Pooh [a story]?” When Joe Sutphin and Kevan Chandler sat down to make a graphic novel of Winnie the Pooh, that’s exactly how they decided to tell the story–very sweetly. In this episode, Joe and Kevan speak with Jonathan Rogers about their beautiful new book, Winnie the Pooh: The Graphic Novel.

To celebrate the re-release of The Charlatan's Boy by Jonathan Rogers, this episode of The Habit Podcast features the first three chapters of the audiobook, read by the author. The Charlatan's Boy in hardback at the Rabbit Room Store  The Charlatan's Boy audiobook on Audible

Pete Killingley is Head of Church Engagement for CARE–Christian Action Research and Education in the UK.  He helps Christians and churches engage with politics with truth and grace, and think through the big ethical issues being debated in our public square with clarity and compassion. His first book is A Christian's Guide to AI. It’s a book designed to help readers weigh up the everyday implications of navigating life and faith alongside AI–with humility and a hopeful outlook. In this conversation Pete explains why he speaks of AI as apparent intelligence rather than artificial intelligence. And he offers up some helpful questions to ask any time you’re weighing whether or not to use AI in any particular situation.

Jen Pollock Michel is an author, speaker, and mentor in the MFA in creative writing at Whitworth University. She is the author of six books, most recently A Rule for the Rest of Us: An Ancient Practice for Making the Daily Decisions that Shape Faithful Lives, Every Monday she sends out a Substack newsletter, A Habit Called Faith. You can subscribe at jenpollockmichel.substack.com. In this episode, Jen and Jonathan Rogers talk about the Rule of Saint Benedict, and the idea that a “rule for life” has more to do with guideposts or handrails than laws or demands or even catalog of commitments—and certainly not a means of working harder or longer, but a means of simplification and clarification in the midst of of overwhelming choices and the cult of productivity. And we talk about five steps for making your own personal rule.

J.R. Briggs is the founder of Kairos Partnerships, an organization committed to serving hungry leaders through coaching, consulting, and speaking. He serves on staff with the Ecclesia Network and Fresh Expressions, and as guest instructor for Friends University in the Masters of Spiritual Formation and Leadership program. He is also the author of several books, most recently The Art of Asking Better Questions. In this conversation, J.R. and Jonathan Rogers talk about questions as a way to connect with others, starting a writing project with questions rather than answers, and the humility required to follow a question to which you don’t know the answer. Also, J.R. offers two questions that can create all kinds of opportunities.

Dr. Jason Crawford is a professor of early modern literature and culture at Union University. In his research and teaching he works on both tragedy and suffering and comedy and laughter. His latest book is God's Fools: Saints, Prophets, Martyrs, and the Making of Modern Comedy. In this episode, Dr. Crawford and Jonathan Rogers talk about standup comedy, Saint Francis, Saint Lawrence (the patron saint of comedians), and the surprising connections among martyrs, holy fools, and the comedians of our own era.

Scott Sauls is the author of books, most recently The Mercy King: How the Kindness of Jesus Heals Your Sin, Shame, and Weakness. In this conversation, Scott Sauls and Jonathan Rogers talk about our tendency to confuse being useful with being lovable. They also talk about the dangers of comparison and the value of restlessness.

In this episode, an artist roommate gives Chelsea Barnwell reason to reassess her own frugality and practicality, and Isla Rickerton tells of her recovery—physically, emotionally, and spiritually—after an act of harrowing violence. "Leaving Home Stories,” is a special summer series in which writers from The Habit Membership read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Sponsored by The Habit Membership for Writers.

This week’s episode features Jennifer Degani, Tania Gutting, and Pam Kiper. They’ll read two stories about frequent home-leavings, and one story about one big move after a long time in the same place. "Leaving Home Stories,” is a special summer series in which writers from The Habit Membership read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Sponsored by The Habit Membership for Writers.

This week’s episode, featuring Mariam Matossian, George Price, and Frank McCormack, will swing from the hilarious to the poignant. Expect door-to-door sales, a road trip in a hearse, and a hallucinated raptor.  "Leaving Home Stories,” is a special summer series in which writers from The Habit Membership read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Sponsored by The Habit Membership for Writers.

In this episode, Sara Bannerman, Jan Cooper, and Mandy Link read personal narratives in which they leave home and find themselves in situations where the stakes were higher than they realized. Sara Bannerman recalls beinga young girl put in an unsettled and unsettling situation. Jan Cooper wins a writing prize and has reason to wish she hadn't won. And Mandy Link tells of a time when an incident on a familiar running trail gave her reason to reassess many areas of her life. "Leaving Home Stories,” is a special summer series in which writers from The Habit Membership read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Sponsored by The Habit Membership.

In this  episode, Jaclyn Hoselton, Kate Pocklington, and Cara Peregrino read personal essays in which they leave home and cross international borders. Jaclyn Hoselton reflects on what it means to be a Mexican-American who speaks German but not Spanish. Kate Pocklington leaves a temporary but beloved home in India to return to her homeland of Australia. And Cara Peregrino leaves Scotland for the United States, where she has to learn new birds—and finds a few of her old favorite birds waiting for her.  "Leaving Home Stories,” is a special summer series in which writers from The Habit Membership read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Sponsored by The Habit Membership.

In this especially wistful episode, S.D.G. Morgan tells about returning to a childhood home that has been condemned since he lived there, Heather Cadenhead remembers one of her childhood homes with mixed feelings, and Karen Wells tells about her senior year of high school, when it was time to leave her childhood home and she wasn't able to. "Leaving Home Stories,” is a special summer series in which writers from The Habit Membership read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Sponsored by The Habit Membership.

In this episode, Reagan Dregge gets congratulated for her beautiful Midwestern accent, a taxi driver teaches Rachael Watson about hospitality, and Michelle Watson misbehaves in Italy. "Leaving Home Stories,” is a special summer series in which writers from The Habit Membership read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Sponsored by The Habit Membership.

In this episode, Beth Matheson leaves home fifty times, Jamie Vanbiber has reason to wish she had stayed home, and Greg Finley leaves for college in an especially vulnerable moment in his life. "Leaving Home Stories,” is a special summer series in which writers from The Habit Membership read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Sponsored by The Habit Membership.

In this special Fourth of July episode, Irish writer Judith McQuoid reads a story of her first arrival in the United States, in the summer of 1976. This beautiful reflection is a love letter to America, and a reminder of what this country can still mean to people from around the world.   This episode is part of a special summer series called “Leaving Home Stories,” in which writers from The Habit Membership will read personal narratives on the theme of leaving home, literally or metaphorically, temporarily or permanently. Judith McQuoid is the author of Giant, a fictional retelling of CS Lewis’s boyhood in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Sponsored by The Habit Membership.

Andrew Wilson is Teaching Pastor at King’s Church London, and has degrees in history and theology from Cambridge (MA) and King’s College London (PhD). He is a columnist for Christianity Today, and has written several books. The most recent is Remaking the World: How 1776 Created the Post-Christian West. Historian Mark Noll wrote, “Andrew Wilson’s book is extraordinary in every way: extraordinary in the breadth of research; extraordinary in the multitude of world-significant events that Wilson identifies for 1776; extraordinary in the depth of his insight on what those events meant (and continue to mean); extraordinary in the verve with which he makes his arguments; and, not least, extraordinary in the persuasive Christian framework in which he sets the book. Remaking the World is a triumph of both creative historical analysis and winsome Christian interpretation.”

Dr. Warren Kinghorn is a psychiatrist and theologian at Duke University, where he holds joint appointments at Duke Divinity School and the Duke University Medical Center. Warren’s work focuses on the intersection of theology, mental health, and human flourishing—and he brings an integrated, humane perspective to questions that too often get reduced to biology or technique. His new book is Wayfaring: A Christian Approach to Mental Health Care. In this episode, Warren Kinghorn and Jonathan Rogers discuss how the metaphor of the human being as a machine has shaped mental health care—and what is gained by reclaiming the older metaphor of the human as wayfarer; they talk about the ways that Thomas Aquinas’s teleological vision of human behavior opens up a richer account of freedom, agency, and virtue; and they talk about the possibility that the meaning of life is an active participation in blessing. This episode, brought to you by The Habit's Writer Development Cohorts, first ran in 2025.

Russ Ramsey is a gifted storyteller and a trusted guide in the world of art. He is the author of Rembrandt is in the Wind and Van Gogh Has a Broken Heart: What Art Teaches Us About The Wonder and Struggle of Being Alive. In this episode from October 2024, Russ and Jonathan Rogers talk about sunflowers, the sublime, and the connection between suffering and wonder.  This episode is sponsored by The Habit's Writer Development Cohorts.

Sarah Clarkson is a writer whose work centers on beauty and grief, story and quiet. She has written of herself, “I’m trying to write well about my own sorrow, and my own encounters with the beauty that defied my darkness and drew me into a life of creativity, quiet, and wonder.” She studied theology at Oxford University. She is the author or co-author of six books, most recently Reclaiming Quiet: Cultivating a Life of Holy Attention, which she wrote to answer her own questions about what it means to have a quiet mind in a fallen, screen-driven world. In this episode, Sarah and Jonathan Rogers discuss a better definition of quiet, the importance of physical presence, the dangers of screens, and the value of boredom. This episode is sponsored by The Habit's Writer Development Cohorts, a small-group intensive for fiction and nonfiction writers. Apply at TheHabit.co/cohorts.  

In recent years there has been a resurgence of serial publishing on Internet platforms. In this episode Mick Donahue and Andy Patton talk with Jonathan Rogers about serial publishing. Mick and his wife Rachel are is the co-founder of the new serialization platform, Flicker.Press. Andy, besides being the Rabbit Room’s Director of Content, is the author of the serialized novel The Ill Starred Knight, published on the Royal Road platform under the pen name Ix.

Jeffrey Overstreet is a novelist, creative writing professor, and film critic at the intersection of art, faith, hope, and love. His new book, Lost and Found in the Cathedral of Cinema, is a memoir in essays about film. He has described it as “a celebration and an expression of gratitude for the films that shaped my young imagination, that helped me recognize the glory of God's work in the world that God loves, and that then set me free to learn to love the world — the whole world — myself.” If you’ve ever been moved by a movie, you will enjoy this conversation with Jeffrey Overstreet.

Priest and poet Malcolm Guite has become something of a regular on The Habit Podcast. And yet familiarity breeds ever more amazement at what a gift Malcolm is to the reading world. Galahad and the Grail is Book 1 of Merlin’s Isle: An Authuriad. This four-part epic poem in ballad form will retell the whole story of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. In this episode, Malcolm and Jonathan Rogers talk about poetic forms, the beginnings of Malcolm's own work on Arthur, and the old legends about how the grail got to the British Isles.

Tish Harrison Warren is an Anglican priest, a former columnist at the New York Times and Christianity Today, and a writer of wise and thoughtful books about living lives of connection and meaning. Her new book, What Grows in Weary Lands, explores a reality that early Christians often grappled with but that we rarely talk about in contemporary life: at times, God seems to abandon the soul, leaving us feeling as if we are alone and left to our own resources. These are times of futility, when work and relationships feel hard, when prayer feels unsatisfying, and we question whether our efforts amount to anything. In this conversation, Tish and Jonathan Rogers talk about the possibility that aridity, languishing, and even burnout are an invitation to deeper, more connected, and more fruitful life and work. This episode is sponsored by The Habit's Writer Development Cohorts. 

Angela Alaimo O'Donnell is a poet, professor, and scholar whose work sits at the crossroads of faith, memory, and the literary imagination. She teaches literature and creative writing at Fordham University and serves as Associate Director of the Curran Center for American Catholic Studies. Her latest poetry collection is The View from Childhood. She has said, “We all have a place that we come from that has helped shape us into who we are. We all have memories that stay with us, bring us joy, and haunt us, and we all face the daily decision of what to do with those memories—to preserve them or to let them fade. My vocation, as a poet, compels me to turn them into story and song. These poems tell my stories, and I also hope they, in some way, tell the reader’s.” In this episode, Dr. O’Donnell and Jonathan Rogers talk about origin stories, Flannery O’Connor, and the idea that any writer who has survived childhood has enough material to last a lifetime.

Besides being an award-winning teacher and professor of theology & ethics at Lipscomb University, Lee Camp hosts No Small Endeavor, a podcast that asks What does it mean to live a good life? What is true happiness? What are the habits, practices, and dispositions that facilitate human flourishing? Lee Camp explores these and similar questions with some of the most influential authors, scientists, artists, psychologists, philosophers, and theologians. In this episode, Dr. Camp and Jonathan Rogers talk about ethics, virtue theory, and writerly habits.

Professor Alan Noble is a voice of good sense in a world where good sense seems to be in short supply. His new book is To Live Well: Practical Wisdom for Moving Through Chaotic Times. It is a call to return to the old paths as laid out in the seven virtues of Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, Temperance, Faith, Hope, and Love. In this episode, Alan and Jonathan Rogers talk about the limits of technique, a respect for reality, and largeness of spirit, among other topics.

Jennifer Trafton’s new book is If Only We Could See: Reimagining Creativity, Compassion, and Calling Through the Extraordinary Life of Lilias Trotter. An historian, a visual artist, and a novelist, Jennifer is uniquely qualified to tell this story. In this episode, Jennifer and Jonathan Rogers talk about the remarkable life of artist and missionary Lilias Trotter. They also talk about the empathetic imagination, the value of seeing what is actually in front of you, and the role of humility in seeing clearly.

Leslie Bustard did a lot of thinking, teaching, and writing about what God made women to be–as distinct from what women can and can’t do. She was working on a book on this topic when she died in 2023. In the last months of Leslie’s earthly life, writer and editor Théa Rosenburg came alongside to help Leslie get the book over the finish line. As it happened, Théa had to finish the work without Leslie. The book, called Strong Allies, released in 2026. Jonathan Rogers sat down with Théa at the Square Halo Conference in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and recorded the following conversation before a live audience.

Jamie Quatro is the author of Two Step Devil, a southern Gothic novel very much in the tradition of Flannery O’Connor. The Booklist review of Two-Step Devil describes it as "Brilliantly paced and exquisitely detailed, this striking novel takes on such weighty themes as faith, humanity, and frailty without a touch of melodrama . . . A spectacular masterpiece.” Bookpage called Quatro "a saint of Southern discomfort. Jamie Quatro and Jonathan Rogers recorded this conversation in front of a live audience at the Illuminate Conference near Chattanooga.

Joy Clarkson is the author of Aggressively Happy and host of the podcast, Speaking with Joy. She is the books editor for Plough Quarterly and a research associate in theology and literature at King's College London. Joy completed her PhD in theology at the University of St Andrews, where she researched how art can be a resource of hope and consolation. Her new book is You Are a Tree: And Other Metaphors to Nourish Life, Thought, And Prayer.In this episode, Joy and I talk about the ways that figurative language shapes the way we think about the world and ourselves, and Joy tries to convince Jonathan that the distinction between simile and metaphor is meaningful. This episode originally aired January 2024.

Timothy Jones is a pastor and author known for helping people uncover greater warmth and depth in their relationship with God. His new book is Fully Beloved: Meeting God in Our Heartaches and Our Hopes. As Sandra Mccracken says, Fully Beloved “names the ache of loneliness and our lifelong quest for belonging.” In this episode, Tim Jones and Jonathan Rogers talk about the Trinity, Julian of Norwich, and the creative energy that is released when you realize that you are more loved than you thought.

Bethaney B. Wilkinson is a writer, spiritual director, podcaster, and facilitator who is passionate about slow, sustainable, and soul-nourishing living. Her new book is A More Beautiful Way to Live: Nine Practices to Unlearn Habits of Anxiety, Fear, and Urgency. In this episode, Bethaney and Jonathan Roger talk about tending to your inner terrain, paying attention to your longings while also paying attention to realities and limitations, and the difference between your sphere of influence and your sphere of concern.

Wesley Vander Lugt  is a pastor, theologian, writer, teacher, nonprofit leader, and arts advocate with a passion for beauty, slowness, cultivation, and kinship. He currently works as the Acting Director of the Leighton Ford Center for Theology, the Arts, and Gospel Witness and is Adjunct Professor of Theology at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Charlotte. He is also the Co-Founder of Kinship Plot, a community of learning and practice imagining and embodying resonant relationships of every kind. His new book is Beauty Is Oxygen: Finding a Faith that Breathes. In this episode, Wes and Jonathan Rogers discuss just how necessary beauty is. This episode originally aired in June of 2024.

Becca Jordan has referred to herself as a wandering songbird. She’s a singer-songwriter, a writer of essays, and a worship leader in Nashville. She is also working on a Masters Degree in Theopoetics. Becca was our guest at The Habit’s 2026 Winter Writer’s Weekend. The theme of that weekend was “Adding to the Glory.” Becca is an artist who has put a lot of glory into the world in a lot of different ways, so she seemed like an obvious fit. This conversation was recorded in front of a roomful of writers. In this episode, Becca and Jonathan Rogers talk about glory, longing, and related topics.

Curt Thompson is a psychiatrist, a speaker, and the author of several books–most recently, The Deepest Place: Suffering and the Formation of Hope. In this episode, Curt and Jonathan Rogers talk about what it means to be hospitable to your own suffering, engaging suffering as the way of redemption, and the role of storytelling in mental and spiritual health. This episode originally ran in August 2023.

Andrew Roycroft is a freelance editor and writer. He has published poetry in a number of Irish and British literary journals, has produced work for BBC Radio 4, has contributed to Arts Council Northern Ireland projects, and written commissioned work for New Irish Arts. Andrew is also a regular contributor to the Rabbit Room Poetry community. His Substack is New Grub Street. In this episode, Andrew and Jonathan Rogers talk about calling, Substack, and Seamus Heaney.

Marsh Moyle is an interesting man. He’s an Englishman but he grew up in Malta. He and his wife Tuula lived for 17 years in Vienna when the Iron Curtain divided Europe. There they organised book translation and distribution while researching the beliefs, practices, and problems of life under communism. In the post-communist period, they lived in Slovakia for 16 years, establishing publishing houses in seven countries. They also ran a learning community and held seminars with student groups in Central Europe, Russia, and Ukraine, committed to awakening the imagination, encouragng critical thinking, and fostering a deeper practical understanding of biblical ideas. Marsh is the author of Rumours of a Better Country: Searching for Trust and Community in a Time of Moral Outrage. In this episode, Marsh and Jonathan Rogers talk about utopianism, individualism, and the surprising truth that we can only be our true, distinct selves when our selves are shaped by the people around us.

This week's episode is an old favorite from 2024. Leif Enger writes novels about good people living through bad times. His new book, I Cheerfully Refuse, epitomizes what the Los Angeles Tines calls Enger's “musical, sometimes magical and deeply satisfying kind of storytelling.” In this episode, Leif Enger and Jonathan Rogers talk about dystopian fiction; courage, literacy, and hope; and the bass guitar.

Joyce McPherson has written ten biographies–as well as several middle-grade novels–in 45 minute increments snatched from a busy life as a mother of nine and as a college instructor. Her most recent book is a biography of Jane Austen. In this episode, Joyce McPherson and Jonathan Rogers talk about how her mother convinced her to start writing for publication when she had two small children. We talk about research for biographies and historical fiction. And we talk about Joyce’s experiences with both traditional publishing and self-publishing.

Winfield Bevins is an author, a visual artist, and the founding director of Creo Arts, a non-profit that exists to bring beauty, goodness, and truth to the world through the arts. His new book is How Beauty Will Save the World: Recovering the Power of the Arts for the Christian Life. In this episode, Winfield and Jonathan Rogers talk about how beauty will save the world. They also talk about a modern Renaissance of the arts, moving from beauty to truth, and making space for Sabbath rest.

Daniel Nayeri’s latest novel—The Teacher of Nomad Land: A World War II Story—recently received the National Book Award for Young People’s Literature. In this episode Daniel speaks with Jonathan Rogers about Iran’s role in World War II, food writing, fathers, providence, the wisdom of children, and incompetent spies. This episode is sponsored by The Habit Writer Development Cohorts, a six-week small-group intensive starting January 12. The Habit Writer Development Cohorts provide practical tools, insights, and encouragement that writers at all experience levels. 

You probably know Sally Lloyd-Jones as the author of the Jesus Storybook Bible, a book that has been around for almost twenty years. She has also published more than twenty other books for children, including Thoughts to Make Your Heart Sing, His Royal Highness King Baby, and Skip to the Loo: A Potty Book. Her latest is Jesus, Our True Friend. Sally is committed to delight, and that makes her a delight herself. This is a delightful conversation between Sally Lloyd-Jones and Jonathan Rogers. This episode is sponsored by The Habit Writer Development Cohorts. Join "Cohort Week Zero," a free mini-class, at TheHabit.co/Development.

Galahad and the Grail is Book 1 of Merlin’s Isle, Malcolm Guite’s retelling of the King Arthur legends in ballad form. It releases in March of 2026. In the prelude to Galahad and the Grail, a voice shimmering in the morning air says: Poet, take up the tale– Take up the tale the land still keeps, In earth and water magic sleeps, The dryad sighs, the naiad weeps, But you can lift the veil. Malcolm has taken up a very old tale and lifted the veil on stories that have lingered in the traditions of the British Isles longer than the English language itself.  Scholar and teacher Junius Johnson is taking up the tale in another way. Starting in January 2026, Junius is teaching a 20-week online class on the King Arthur legend. He describes the class as a chance to see for yourself why this story has fascinated the imagination for so many centuries. In this episode, Malcolm, Junius talk with Jonathan Rogers about how King Arthur rode into their lives, and what these stories have meant to them. This episode is sponsored by The Habit Writer Development Cohorts. Join "Cohort Week Zero," a free mini-class, at TheHabit.co/Development.

Besides being the proprietor of the much-loved Substack, Miller's Book Review, Joel Miller is the author of a new book that has made its way into the world after a thirteen-year gestation. In The Idea Machine: How Books Built Our World and Shape Our Future, Joel make the case that books are one of the most important but overlooked factors in the making of our contemporary world. Books don't just preserve ideas, yes, but they also provoke new ones: they are true tools for thinking. This episode of The Habit Podcast was recorded live as part of a book-release celebration at The Rabbit Room’s North Wind Manor.  This episode is sponsored by The Habit Writer Development Cohorts. Join "Cohort Week Zero," a free mini-class, at TheHabit.co/Development.

Mischa Willett is a poet and writing professor. He is the Director of the Whitworth Writers' Workshop MFA in Creative Writing at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington. In this episode, Mischa Willett and Jonathan Rogers talk about MFA programs, failure as a means of getting work done, and apology letters written by robots. This episode is sponsored by The Habit Writer Development Cohorts. Join "Cohort Week Zero" a free mini-class, TheHabit.co/Development.

In her role as poet, Rachel Donahue has a track record of gathering other poets, encouraging them in their work, and giving them space to shine. In her role as publisher and editor at Bandersnatch Books, she has done all those things for poets by envisioning, then bringing to lifeI’ve Got a Bad Case of Poetry, an anthology of poems for children by dozens of poets, gorgeously illustrated by Emily J. Person. In this episode, Jonathan Rogers speaks with both Rachel and Emily about the origins of A Bad Case of Poetry, the joys of creating in community, and the role of delight in the making of art—especially art for children. To get I've Got a Bad Case of Poetry by Christmas, preorder at Kickstarter before December 5.

Rabbit Room Press has started a new podcast called Rabbit Room Press Presents, serialized audiobooks of favorite Rabbit Room Press titles. The first season consisted of the seventeen interviews with poets that make up Ben Palpant’s book, An Axe for the Frozen Sea. Each episode is a different interview. Besides being an excellent writer in his own right, Ben is a great interviewer. This episode of The Habit Podcast is a rebroadcast of the first episode of Rabbit Press Presents—en Palpant, reading the Preface to An Axe for the Frozen Sea, followed by Chapter 1 of that book, his interview with the poet Scott Cairns.

Katherine Ladny Mitchell is a mystery-writer. Not To Be is the first in her Pen and Paintbrush mystery series, in which a writer and a painter, two sisters, work together as amateur sleuths. In this episode, Katherine and Jonathan Rogers talk about the rules of mystery stories, and how they apply to other kinds of storytelling. And they discuss the ways that the habit of art could make artists of all kinds good crime solvers.

Dr. Grace Hamman is a writer and independent scholar of late medieval poetry and contemplative writing. Her work has been published by academic and popular outlets, including Plough Quarterly and The Journal of Medieval and Early Modern Studies. Her new book is Ask of Old Paths: Medieval Virtues and Vices for a Whole and Holy Life. In this episode, Grace and Jonathan Rogers talk about the virtues and vices, and the ways that virtues present differently in different people. They also talk about unicorns.