Cielda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. In recent years, drug busts at New Zealand's border keep getting bigger, with record breaking holes getting stopped by officials. But drugs are still getting into the country and we all know that what people think they're buying on the street will not necessarily be what they get, and some people may be consuming synthetic opioids without ever realizing they're putting their health at risk. Today on the Front Page, Drug Foundation Executive Director Sarah helm joins us to discuss the new drug that has got her organization worried. Sarah, we see stories on the Herald website almost every week about a drug bust in New Zealand. How many kilogram of drugs do you believe actually entering and making it into the country.

Cielda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. In recent years, drug busts at New Zealand's border keep getting bigger, with record breaking holes getting stopped by officials. But drugs are still getting into the country and we all know that what people think they're buying on the street will not necessarily be what they get, and some people may be consuming synthetic opioids without ever realizing they're putting their health at risk. Today on the Front Page, Drug Foundation Executive Director Sarah helm joins us to discuss the new drug that has got her organization worried. Sarah, we see stories on the Herald website almost every week about a drug bust in New Zealand. How many kilogram of drugs do you believe actually entering and making it into the country.

Oh, I'm not sure if I know the volume of drugs making it into the country off the top of my head. But drug busts only do one part of the job. And in fact, some would argue the way that we're handling drugs, or we police them rather than regulating them, contributes to a growing concern around potency and unpredictability of our drug supply, resulting an increasing threat to life because of our drug supply, and.

Oh, I'm not sure if I know the volume of drugs making it into the country off the top of my head. But drug busts only do one part of the job. And in fact, some would argue the way that we're handling drugs, or we police them rather than regulating them, contributes to a growing concern around potency and unpredictability of our drug supply, resulting an increasing threat to life because of our drug supply, and.

In terms of the supply, I guess it's quite difficult to get it into the country. Hey, so is a lot being made and developed actually here in New Zealand.

In terms of the supply, I guess it's quite difficult to get it into the country. Hey, so is a lot being made and developed actually here in New Zealand.

But no, it's spy and large important and comes from a variety of places. Our drug supply over the years has become more unpredictable, so there's many more novel substances being created and increasingly potent. And there are different theories around this, but basically, the idea that incentivizes the drug supply chain to get the drug as small as possible, suppotency lends itself to something being very small and therefore much more easily able to be smuggled into the country.

But no, it's spy and large important and comes from a variety of places. Our drug supply over the years has become more unpredictable, so there's many more novel substances being created and increasingly potent. And there are different theories around this, but basically, the idea that incentivizes the drug supply chain to get the drug as small as possible, suppotency lends itself to something being very small and therefore much more easily able to be smuggled into the country.

And the new novel substances are.

And the new novel substances are.

Being created to try and get around drug law, so they create a new drug that mimics the effects of it an existing substance, and unfortunately, every time one of those is created, we don't know what the impact on the human body will be. And that's where we see some really concerning impacts for people and their health in their lives.

Being created to try and get around drug law, so they create a new drug that mimics the effects of it an existing substance, and unfortunately, every time one of those is created, we don't know what the impact on the human body will be. And that's where we see some really concerning impacts for people and their health in their lives.

What would you say is the most common drug on the streets in New Zealand at the moment?

What would you say is the most common drug on the streets in New Zealand at the moment?

Well, alcohol ha, but still by far and away the more common drugs that people use are alcohol not to be too gg because it is a drug and some of its effects are more harmful than many of our illicit substances, and cannabis is the drug that most New Zealanders have tried as well in the illicit side.

Well, alcohol ha, but still by far and away the more common drugs that people use are alcohol not to be too gg because it is a drug and some of its effects are more harmful than many of our illicit substances, and cannabis is the drug that most New Zealanders have tried as well in the illicit side.

And then other drugs are much less likely to be being used.

And then other drugs are much less likely to be being used.

It's a small population that use other substances, and we do continue to have methmphetamine and MDMA being quite common in the much less common side of things.

It's a small population that use other substances, and we do continue to have methmphetamine and MDMA being quite common in the much less common side of things.

There were fears last year that fentanyl was starting to get into New Zealand, but we haven't heard much since then. Why do you think fentanyl hasn't really found a footing here and we haven't had an epidemics, say, like the US?

There were fears last year that fentanyl was starting to get into New Zealand, but we haven't heard much since then. Why do you think fentanyl hasn't really found a footing here and we haven't had an epidemics, say, like the US?

Yeah, the US and North America more broadly so, Canada has ended up with quite a significant issue with superpotent opioids, specially fentanyl, and they had a particular set of situations that arise in North America that I think helped to create that situation, one of which was a pre existing addiction to prescription opioids and then some changes around the availability of those prescription opioids. The arrival of fentanyl really spoke to a need in the community, but unfortunately has had very dire consequences on the community, and we haven't had the same prescription drug issues, and we haven't had it arrived here. We are the bottom of the earth, so it takes a long time for things to arrive. But actually fentanyl hasn't really had a big presence anywhere in the world aside from North America. However, we are internationally saying the rise of a newer potent opioid, a group of potent opioids I should say called nitizines.

Yeah, the US and North America more broadly so, Canada has ended up with quite a significant issue with superpotent opioids, specially fentanyl, and they had a particular set of situations that arise in North America that I think helped to create that situation, one of which was a pre existing addiction to prescription opioids and then some changes around the availability of those prescription opioids. The arrival of fentanyl really spoke to a need in the community, but unfortunately has had very dire consequences on the community, and we haven't had the same prescription drug issues, and we haven't had it arrived here. We are the bottom of the earth, so it takes a long time for things to arrive. But actually fentanyl hasn't really had a big presence anywhere in the world aside from North America. However, we are internationally saying the rise of a newer potent opioid, a group of potent opioids I should say called nitizines.

New Zealand's seen illicit ventanyl use before seven people were taken to wide it up a hospital in twenty twenty two after taking it empowdered form a class B drug, fentanyl can be prescribed for pain relief. In twenty twenty two, more than eight thousand people accessed it, but in the past year it's the emergence of nitizines, twenty five times more potent than ventanyl, that has experts concerned.

New Zealand's seen illicit ventanyl use before seven people were taken to wide it up a hospital in twenty twenty two after taking it empowdered form a class B drug, fentanyl can be prescribed for pain relief. In twenty twenty two, more than eight thousand people accessed it, but in the past year it's the emergence of nitizines, twenty five times more potent than ventanyl, that has experts concerned.

Yeah, I was about to say, so.

Yeah, I was about to say, so.

Netazines are being called the new ventanyl in Europe. I know that Bristol alone saw seven deaths and over eighty hospitalizations in just one summer after the drug was found in a heroin supplies supply. Can you tell me what they are and do you agree with this definition that they are the new fentanyl?

Netazines are being called the new ventanyl in Europe. I know that Bristol alone saw seven deaths and over eighty hospitalizations in just one summer after the drug was found in a heroin supplies supply. Can you tell me what they are and do you agree with this definition that they are the new fentanyl?

You are They actually more potent than fentanyl, and some as many as twenty five times more potent than fentanyl.

You are They actually more potent than fentanyl, and some as many as twenty five times more potent than fentanyl.

Again, we have a.

Again, we have a.

Different situation here than Europe, but we do have an issue here. Europe has had a long standing heroin use population and with Afghanistan no longer producing as much heroin and the clamp down there, nitizines are arriving and are unfortunately again having really dire consequences for a group of people who have opioid addiction in particular. But we are seeingnitizines both in Europe and in our out of the world Australia and New Zealand entering into our drug market in the non opioid side of things as well. So particularly in Europe that from what I hear from people on the ground, adulteration of benzo diazepines, which over their street benzos are super cheap, and we've seen some of that occur here as well, and in Australia. Nitizines are turning up as methmphetamine and MDMA. So we're already experiencing loss of life and we're very worried about what the coming months or years might mean for us.

Different situation here than Europe, but we do have an issue here. Europe has had a long standing heroin use population and with Afghanistan no longer producing as much heroin and the clamp down there, nitizines are arriving and are unfortunately again having really dire consequences for a group of people who have opioid addiction in particular. But we are seeingnitizines both in Europe and in our out of the world Australia and New Zealand entering into our drug market in the non opioid side of things as well. So particularly in Europe that from what I hear from people on the ground, adulteration of benzo diazepines, which over their street benzos are super cheap, and we've seen some of that occur here as well, and in Australia. Nitizines are turning up as methmphetamine and MDMA. So we're already experiencing loss of life and we're very worried about what the coming months or years might mean for us.

Yeah, I mean netazines. I read somewhere A dose as small as a grain of sand can be deadly, especially if you don't know if you're taking it. They're showing up in more common drugs. People aren't going out to seek netazines, are they?

Yeah, I mean netazines. I read somewhere A dose as small as a grain of sand can be deadly, especially if you don't know if you're taking it. They're showing up in more common drugs. People aren't going out to seek netazines, are they?

Yeah?

Yeah?

No, Well, for example, I visited Canada last year early last year and saw and spoke to a number of people working on the front line and a number of people who had addiction and drug use experience.

No, Well, for example, I visited Canada last year early last year and saw and spoke to a number of people working on the front line and a number of people who had addiction and drug use experience.

For lack of a better word.

For lack of a better word.

Indeed, people had started to seek out ventanyl. They wanted ventanyl rather than trying to avoid it. Over Here, by and large, we still have a community that are wanting to test for and avoid neitizines and ventanyl, which is really great and what we hope to continue. But there are always a group of people that have opioid addiction that might be more inclined to seek out a drug that might be cheap and very potent.

Indeed, people had started to seek out ventanyl. They wanted ventanyl rather than trying to avoid it. Over Here, by and large, we still have a community that are wanting to test for and avoid neitizines and ventanyl, which is really great and what we hope to continue. But there are always a group of people that have opioid addiction that might be more inclined to seek out a drug that might be cheap and very potent.

So we also try not.

So we also try not.

To judge people and provide harm reduction advice and testing so people are best off when they know what it is that they're taking. But by and large our community here it's still looking to avoid potent opioids and we have some new technology to support them. Much I could tea about as well.

To judge people and provide harm reduction advice and testing so people are best off when they know what it is that they're taking. But by and large our community here it's still looking to avoid potent opioids and we have some new technology to support them. Much I could tea about as well.

That's the thing, hey, I mean, getting your drugs tested isn't illegal.

That's the thing, hey, I mean, getting your drugs tested isn't illegal.

Yeah, so it's great.

Yeah, so it's great.

So New Zealand does have a couple of things on our side that other countries haven't had the privilege of having.

So New Zealand does have a couple of things on our side that other countries haven't had the privilege of having.

And one of what.

And one of what.

Is our fully legalized drug checking services, and another is our early warning system, which unlike many other places where they've even been able to have one, it's got government involvement as well as civil society. So we're working together on that early warning system and testing people substances to better inform the community so that they can make decisions get their drugs tested. Actually we give.

Is our fully legalized drug checking services, and another is our early warning system, which unlike many other places where they've even been able to have one, it's got government involvement as well as civil society. So we're working together on that early warning system and testing people substances to better inform the community so that they can make decisions get their drugs tested. Actually we give.

Them harm reduction advice when they come in and get their drugs checked as well.

Them harm reduction advice when they come in and get their drugs checked as well.

And another thing we recently got on board was something called this is in test strips. So we also have fentanyl test strips and they're free, so we can send people a pack of test strips so that they can test their own substances. If they haven't made it to a drug checking clinic or aren't living close enough to one, we at least can send them test strips so that they can identify if they've got a very potent substance in their drug, which I would rarely encourage anyone who's taking illictit substances at this point, all counterfeit medications to test with nitizine and ventical test strips.

And another thing we recently got on board was something called this is in test strips. So we also have fentanyl test strips and they're free, so we can send people a pack of test strips so that they can test their own substances. If they haven't made it to a drug checking clinic or aren't living close enough to one, we at least can send them test strips so that they can identify if they've got a very potent substance in their drug, which I would rarely encourage anyone who's taking illictit substances at this point, all counterfeit medications to test with nitizine and ventical test strips.

Is it silly to think that because fentanyl hasn't had a huge stronghold in New Zealand, that would be also immune to netazines as well.

Is it silly to think that because fentanyl hasn't had a huge stronghold in New Zealand, that would be also immune to netazines as well.

Okay, yes and no, we've got a very small population who are opioid dependent. But I do think that there are groups of our population that would be really severely negatively impacted and face overdose fatalities as a result of a growing presence of nitizines or potent substances.

Okay, yes and no, we've got a very small population who are opioid dependent. But I do think that there are groups of our population that would be really severely negatively impacted and face overdose fatalities as a result of a growing presence of nitizines or potent substances.

And when I walked.

And when I walked.

Through the streets of Vancouver and Toronto and saw people overdosed and no one helping them, I grew very worried about our communities.

Through the streets of Vancouver and Toronto and saw people overdosed and no one helping them, I grew very worried about our communities.

That will be more likely to be impacted.

That will be more likely to be impacted.

And yeah, I really don't want that for our people here in New Zealand.

And yeah, I really don't want that for our people here in New Zealand.

Whether it's the.

Whether it's the.

Groups of university students that one of our staff members experienced, a loss of a number of her friends at university in Canada who had unwittingly taken ventanyl when they were consuming ndmay, or the homeless people who are experiencing addiction there. For example, the man I tended to on the street in Vancouver who had passed out and gone blew, most likely from ventanyl. Luckily I was able to help resuscitate him. But I don't want that for our homeless community, our community of people who take more of society's trickier substances, nor our occasional recreational drug users to face fatalities. You know, I know people who have lost people in North America off the back of somebody accidentally taking the wrong thing. So we need to do everything we can to prevent being situation.

Groups of university students that one of our staff members experienced, a loss of a number of her friends at university in Canada who had unwittingly taken ventanyl when they were consuming ndmay, or the homeless people who are experiencing addiction there. For example, the man I tended to on the street in Vancouver who had passed out and gone blew, most likely from ventanyl. Luckily I was able to help resuscitate him. But I don't want that for our homeless community, our community of people who take more of society's trickier substances, nor our occasional recreational drug users to face fatalities. You know, I know people who have lost people in North America off the back of somebody accidentally taking the wrong thing. So we need to do everything we can to prevent being situation.

It's just heartbreaking. Hey, and I guess on your first hand experience, you've seen what happens to communities when this drug takes a stronghold. How prepared do you think New Zealand is or are we completely unprepared?

It's just heartbreaking. Hey, and I guess on your first hand experience, you've seen what happens to communities when this drug takes a stronghold. How prepared do you think New Zealand is or are we completely unprepared?

Yeah, so we've spoken to the good things that we've done, which I'm really happy that we have, but we've got a long way to go. New Zealand's never really had an overdose strategy or plan. We've ignored the overdose fatalities we've had. We've rested on our laurels, thinking we don't have as many as other people. Actually we're losing I think from memories, something like one hundred and seventy New Zealanders each year to overdose a couple each week, and we could do better anyway. But in terms of being prepared for more of a concerning presence of very potient opioids, there's a number of things.

Yeah, so we've spoken to the good things that we've done, which I'm really happy that we have, but we've got a long way to go. New Zealand's never really had an overdose strategy or plan. We've ignored the overdose fatalities we've had. We've rested on our laurels, thinking we don't have as many as other people. Actually we're losing I think from memories, something like one hundred and seventy New Zealanders each year to overdose a couple each week, and we could do better anyway. But in terms of being prepared for more of a concerning presence of very potient opioids, there's a number of things.

That we could do.

That we could do.

We released a plan of types of overdose interventions that we need to put in place, but I would point to a few in particular. There's a medicine called na lozone the Americans call it NACAN, and we have been over several years whittling away at the system trying to unlock that for the community. So where we've gotten to is that there are some injectable forms of this iner lockzone that are available at needle exchanges, but we still don't have proper access to a nasal spray variety which would be more able to be given out and used by lay people. So we have put in a funding application to pharmac and the committee that is in charge of these things are recommended it be funded. Now we're just waiting to see if it makes it into the budget. That would be a big important thing to have because you can imagine, say you have an event at a university orientation and suddenly there are a bunch of people overdosing having narcan or no locks on there on hand.

We released a plan of types of overdose interventions that we need to put in place, but I would point to a few in particular. There's a medicine called na lozone the Americans call it NACAN, and we have been over several years whittling away at the system trying to unlock that for the community. So where we've gotten to is that there are some injectable forms of this iner lockzone that are available at needle exchanges, but we still don't have proper access to a nasal spray variety which would be more able to be given out and used by lay people. So we have put in a funding application to pharmac and the committee that is in charge of these things are recommended it be funded. Now we're just waiting to see if it makes it into the budget. That would be a big important thing to have because you can imagine, say you have an event at a university orientation and suddenly there are a bunch of people overdosing having narcan or no locks on there on hand.

So it's not only the potence of the substance.

So it's not only the potence of the substance.

That time that it takes with somebody to shift from overdose to a fatality is very short, so waiting.

That time that it takes with somebody to shift from overdose to a fatality is very short, so waiting.

For the ambulance can be too long that the person may die.

For the ambulance can be too long that the person may die.

So having the lock zone on hand and available at events of high risk or say a first responder who's not an ambulance turns up, having them being able to carry in a locks own, let alone the drug user themselves and the people who love them and.

So having the lock zone on hand and available at events of high risk or say a first responder who's not an ambulance turns up, having them being able to carry in a locks own, let alone the drug user themselves and the people who love them and.

Are around them. So we'd really like to see that made available.

Are around them. So we'd really like to see that made available.

Two things that I've seen over and over again that many people can't believe if they're outside of the drug world, is that people who use drugs are often buried, community minded and also don't care about our health. When we're able to the needland s fringe program in Australia had saved four dollars for every dollar invested. When you extended that beyond just a horizon of a few years and then started putting in things like opening doors to mental health skin infections that return balloons to twelve dollars.

Two things that I've seen over and over again that many people can't believe if they're outside of the drug world, is that people who use drugs are often buried, community minded and also don't care about our health. When we're able to the needland s fringe program in Australia had saved four dollars for every dollar invested. When you extended that beyond just a horizon of a few years and then started putting in things like opening doors to mental health skin infections that return balloons to twelve dollars.

We also don't have a number of the things that other countries have created, for example, overdose prevention centers or supervised drug use spaces.

We also don't have a number of the things that other countries have created, for example, overdose prevention centers or supervised drug use spaces.

We created a.

We created a.

Proposal for one in conjunction with a number of the key players in Auckland and inner city Auckland. We'd really like to see one at least tried in New Zealand, particularly that will serve a population who regular users of drugs and don't have anywhere else to be to safely take the drug. If you supervise people, the evidence shows it is incredibly effective at preventing fatalities, and it also has a positive effect on fatalities on the neighboring area, and it has a general uplift in those people's health impact as well.

Proposal for one in conjunction with a number of the key players in Auckland and inner city Auckland. We'd really like to see one at least tried in New Zealand, particularly that will serve a population who regular users of drugs and don't have anywhere else to be to safely take the drug. If you supervise people, the evidence shows it is incredibly effective at preventing fatalities, and it also has a positive effect on fatalities on the neighboring area, and it has a general uplift in those people's health impact as well.

Tell me about that. So is it a designated space for regular drug users to take drugs but they're supervised.

Tell me about that. So is it a designated space for regular drug users to take drugs but they're supervised.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, that's right.

So there's a famous one in our backyard, Sydney Uniting Church. Melbourne's got one that are all over Canada these days and a number of other place and there's tons of evidence. I've been around for a very long time at this point, so the fact we don't have one is political, historical anomaly and a bit of a pain really. So the spaces where the people who might otherwise be at risk of overdose can come and take their drug, somebody like a nurse or indeed in some a doctor supervises their consumption and then they're able to administer CPR and a lockzone whatever is needed if the person overdoses. They're very effective at preventing death, which is the key thing. And you can imagine coming into a service like that might increase your expectation for your health and wellbeing, encourage you to have conversations with people and have a positive effect over above staying alive.

So there's a famous one in our backyard, Sydney Uniting Church. Melbourne's got one that are all over Canada these days and a number of other place and there's tons of evidence. I've been around for a very long time at this point, so the fact we don't have one is political, historical anomaly and a bit of a pain really. So the spaces where the people who might otherwise be at risk of overdose can come and take their drug, somebody like a nurse or indeed in some a doctor supervises their consumption and then they're able to administer CPR and a lockzone whatever is needed if the person overdoses. They're very effective at preventing death, which is the key thing. And you can imagine coming into a service like that might increase your expectation for your health and wellbeing, encourage you to have conversations with people and have a positive effect over above staying alive.

Which is one of the goals of harm reduction. Responses like that.

Which is one of the goals of harm reduction. Responses like that.

You can see why it's controversial though, Hey, I mean, I guess it's just a hop, skip and a jump away from decriminalizing drugs altogether, but it seems like it has good evidence that it works and is at least a gateway for people to get help. Hey, should we be thinking about decriminalizing some drugs?

You can see why it's controversial though, Hey, I mean, I guess it's just a hop, skip and a jump away from decriminalizing drugs altogether, but it seems like it has good evidence that it works and is at least a gateway for people to get help. Hey, should we be thinking about decriminalizing some drugs?

Yeah, just to touch on that, Sydney's had an overdose center a uniting.

Yeah, just to touch on that, Sydney's had an overdose center a uniting.

Church for decades now and.

Church for decades now and.

They haven't legalized or decriminalized, so it is possible to do these things without controversy. They did it in response to the level of fatality they were experiencing back in the I can't remember which decade it is, eighties or nineties, Sorry for that.

They haven't legalized or decriminalized, so it is possible to do these things without controversy. They did it in response to the level of fatality they were experiencing back in the I can't remember which decade it is, eighties or nineties, Sorry for that.

And yes, we do think that we need to look at our drug laws.

And yes, we do think that we need to look at our drug laws.

Our drug laws have found a number of things from happening and prevent people seeking help. They prevent them having conversations with people, and in truth, there's things that we could do on both the regulation side when we think about lower harm substances, for example, or putting people on prescription medication instead. But in terms of law reform, we badly need to look at law reform and criminalizing people certainly help and it has no evidence of working to discourage drug use or is a prevention against addiction or anything of the sort. In fact, it's easier and New Zealand sadly to land yourself in prison than it is to get help because of the long waiting lists to get help. So yeah, we're a fan of shifting our resource and attention back in the direction of help and harm reduction.

Our drug laws have found a number of things from happening and prevent people seeking help. They prevent them having conversations with people, and in truth, there's things that we could do on both the regulation side when we think about lower harm substances, for example, or putting people on prescription medication instead. But in terms of law reform, we badly need to look at law reform and criminalizing people certainly help and it has no evidence of working to discourage drug use or is a prevention against addiction or anything of the sort. In fact, it's easier and New Zealand sadly to land yourself in prison than it is to get help because of the long waiting lists to get help. So yeah, we're a fan of shifting our resource and attention back in the direction of help and harm reduction.

And finally, I guess we've touched on this a little bit. What can the government do to protect us from experiencing something like an opioid epidemic like that in the US and what we're seeing emerge in Europe.

And finally, I guess we've touched on this a little bit. What can the government do to protect us from experiencing something like an opioid epidemic like that in the US and what we're seeing emerge in Europe.

Okay, I think there's a number of protective things I could do to prevent the.

Okay, I think there's a number of protective things I could do to prevent the.

Fatalities or other really negative impacts occurring. If we actually want to prevent the drugs from arriving, we need to look at changing our drug laws and having some sort of regulated approach to substances rather than just ban and police. But there's a number of things we could do to prevent mass fatalities like have occurred overseas, and we're very thankful for the few things that we do have here.

Fatalities or other really negative impacts occurring. If we actually want to prevent the drugs from arriving, we need to look at changing our drug laws and having some sort of regulated approach to substances rather than just ban and police. But there's a number of things we could do to prevent mass fatalities like have occurred overseas, and we're very thankful for the few things that we do have here.

Thanks for joining us, Sarah. That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzed Herald dot co dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.

Thanks for joining us, Sarah. That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzed Herald dot co dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.