The electric vehicle (EV) market is booming and widespread adoption of EVs is critical if countries are to realise their climate ambitions. But every new EV on the road increases the demand for convenient, affordable charging. The Energy Podcast investigates how the world is meeting this infrastructure challenge. Presented by Julia Streets. Featuring Elizabeth Connelly of the International Energy Agency, Lucie Mattera from ChargeUP Europe, Ingrid Malmgren of Plug In America and Shell’s Istvan Kapitany.

The Energy Podcast is a Fresh Air Production for Shell, produced by Annie Day and Sarah Moore, and edited by Molly Lynch and Sophie Curtis.

TRANSCRIPT

Shell The Energy Podcast
Season 4, Episode 3

00:00
Julia Streets: Today on The Energy Podcast…..

MUSIC BED COMES IN

Istvan Kapitany: When  this  is  becoming  really  the  global  way  of  mobility,  finally,  we  really  need  to  be  sorting  out  public  charging.
Ingrid Malmgren: Through  deliberate  planning  and  innovation  and  organic  growth, we're  going  to  have  chargers  where  we  need  them,  when  we  need  them,  and  we'll  have  a  cleaner,  more  sustainable  equitable  transportation  system.

00:29
Julia Streets: There  can  be  little  denial  that  the  electric  vehicle  revolution  is  upon  us.  According  to  the  International  Energy  Agency,  sales  of  Electric  Vehicles,  or  EVs,  exceeded  10  million  worldwide  in  2022,  and  the  global  market  is  predicted  to  grow  even  further  this  year.  This  is  good  news  for  the  nations  relying  on  widespread  adoption  of  EVs  in  helping  them  to  realize  their  climate  ambitions.  If  global  carbon  emissions  are  to  reach  net  zero  by  2050  in  line  with  the  Paris  Agreement,  there  will  need  to  be  300  million  EVs  on  the  road  by  the  end  of  this  decade.
Such  rapid  growth  intensifies  the  need  for  EV  infrastructure,  namely  access  to  reliable,  affordable  charging.  Ensuring  that  EVs  match  the  cost  and  convenience  of  running  a  conventional  fuel  vehicle  is  crucial,  not  just  for  existing  owners,  but  also  in  convincing  more  drivers  to  make  the  switch.  Governments  and  businesses  across  the  world  are  grappling  with  the  infrastructure  challenge  created  by  the  EV  boom  with  varying  degrees  of  success.
Hello,  I'm  Julia  Streets,  and  today  on  The  Energy  Podcast  we  ask,  are  roads  ready  for  EVs? 

MUSIC ENDS

With  me  to  discuss  this  are  Elizabeth  Connelly,  transport  analyst  at  the  International  Energy  Agency.  Lucie  Mattera,  Secretary  General  of  the  infrastructure  industry  association,  ChargeUp  Europe.  Ingrid  Malmgren,  policy  director  at  Plug  In  America,  and  Shell's  Executive  Vice  President  for  Mobility,  Istvan  Kapitany.
 I'm  delighted  that  you're  all  with  me  today.  Elizabeth,  when  you  think  about  EV  infrastructure,  what's  the  global  outlook?

02:16
Elizabeth Connelly: One  thing  to  note  about  charging  infrastructure  right  now  is  that  most  charging  of  electric  cars  occurs  at  homes,  but  a  lot  of  the  attention  is  around  public  charging,  of  course,  because  this  helps  enable  people  to own EVs  that  don't  have  access  to  home  charging.  Looking  at  the  picture  today,  worldwide  there  are  about  we  estimate  17  million  home  chargers  for  electric  vehicles  and  that's  compared  to  about  three  million  public  EV  chargers.
 In  terms  of  who's  leading  the  way  with  charging  infrastructure,  I  don't  want  to  say  any  one  country  is  doing  better  or  worse,  because  I  think  it  really  depends  a  lot  on  the  setup  of  homes  and  whether  people  are  living  in  detached  homes  or  in  multi- unit  dwellings.  So  for  example,  in  the  US  I  think  around  80%  of  EV  owners  live  in  single  family  homes  and  so  it's  really  easy  to  charge  at  home  and  there's  less  pressure  for  there  to  be  public  charging  infrastructure,  at  least  in  these  early  stages. While  on  the  other  hand,  in  China  only  about  50%  of  charging  occurs  at  home.
 So  I  think  there  are  factors  that  make  it  very  different  across  different  regions  around  what is  the  right  level  of  public  charging  infrastructure.  For  example,  China  accounted  for  50%  of  electric  light  duty  vehicles  last  year  but  65%  of  the  public  charging  infrastructure.  So  I  think  in  that  way  China's  leading,  but  I  think  there's  also  factors  that  make  it  you  need  to  be  leading  in  terms  of  public  charging.

03:45
Julia Streets: I've  heard  some  people  talk  about  having  quite  deep- seated  concerns  about  what  they  might  call  range  anxiety,  in  terms  of will  you  be  able  to  get  the  mileage,  the  kilometrage  that  you  are  looking  for.

03:57
Elizabeth Connelly: Sure.  So  at  least  in  terms  of  cars,  and  I  think  trucks  as  well,  range  anxiety  is  a  real  concern.  We  see  automakers  in  the  car  industry,  and  I  think  also  in  the  truck  industry,  really  looking  at  how  they  can  increase  EV  range,  especially  in  ways  that  maybe  don't  require  larger  and  larger,  heavier  and  heavier  batteries.  So  thinking  about  these  in-route  charging,  whether  it  be  highway  fast  chargers  like  we've  already  seen  across  highways  around  the  world  or  thinking  about  for  trucks  in  particular  rest  stops,  how  long  the  rest  time  is  and  building  in  infrastructure  that  can  facilitate  charging  in  whatever  amount  of  time.  I  think  the  US  and  the  EU  have  different  regulations  on  how  long  driver  breaks  should  be  for  these  long  haul  trucking  segments.  So  really  thinking  about  how  the  operations  need  to  work  in  order  to  design  the  adequate  infrastructure  in  a  way  that  could  help  reduce  as  much  as  possible  the  power  demand  on  the  grid.

04:55
Julia Streets: Lucie,  from  your  point  of  view,  at ChargeUp Europe,  what are your  thoughts?

04:59
Lucie Mattera: So  on  range  anxiety,  what  we  are  finding  that  this  is  a  factor  that  is  less  prevalent  today  in  terms  of  sort  of  slowing  down  the  switch  to  EV  charging.  There  was  a  recent  consumer  survey  that  was  commissioned  by  the  European  Commission  and  what  they  found  was  the  primary  obstacle  for  the  switch  to  EV  was  actually  the  price  of  the  car  rather  than the  range  anxiety  or  the  lack  of infrastructure. So in terms of  what  came  up  first  as  an  obstacle  for  a  driver  that's  considering  the  switch  to e-mobility,  that  was  firmly  on  the  top  of  the  list.

05:32
Julia Streets: Ingrid,  what  do  you  think?

05:34
Ingrid Malmgren: I think  that  with  regard  to  passenger  vehicles,  since  so  many  people  charge  at  home  in  the  United  States,  for  most  people's  day- to- day  driving,  range  anxiety  is  not  a  huge  issue.  Most  people  drive  around  30  miles  a  day  and  new  EVs  have  ranges  well  over  250  miles  a  day.  So  many  people  only  need  to  charge  up  every  several  days  or  once  a  week.

06:00
Julia Streets: Istvan,  can  I  bring  you  in  here?  How  important  in  the  big  debate  about  whether  a  motorist  will  make  the  switch  to  EV  is  the  question  of  infrastructure?

06:10
Istvan Kapitany: It's  very,  very  important  and  we are  already  charging  in  30  countries  in  the  world.  So  we  are  pretty  much  one  of  the  biggest  operator  in  terms  of  the  reach.  The  United  States  is  very  different  than  China.  So  in  China  we  have  already  well  over  20,000  public  chargers.  Most  of  the  people,  of  course,  are not  having  the  ability  to  charge  at  home,  so we really  need  to  be  catering  for  that  immediately.
 In  the  United  States,  in  different  parts  of  the  United  States,  you  have  the  picture  very  different.  And in  Europe,  we  just  did  a  survey  now,  whilst  a  year  ago  it  was  basically  33%  of  the  people  who  didn't  have  charger  at  home,  this  is  now  44%  of  the  people  who  are  driving  EV  cars  do  not  have  charger  at  home.
 Why  is  it  happening?  Of  course,  after  the  early  adapters  it  is  becoming  more  and  more  mainstream  activity,  which  is  great.  We  see  that  people  are  buying  this  for  commuting  and  therefore  public  charging  is  becoming  a  very  important  part  of  this  equation.  At  the  early  stage,  many  people  thought,  oh,  it's  going  to  be  all  home  charging.  It  is  just  not  possible.  We  are  in  84  markets  and  90%  of  the  people  who  fill  up  at  Shell  wouldn't  be  today  with  electricity  or  with  fuel  but  wouldn't  have  an  ability  to  charge  at  home.  So  when  this  is  becoming  really  the  global  way  of  mobility,  finally,  we  really  need  to  be  sorting  out  public  charging.

07:30
Julia Streets: There's  a  huge  element  here  about  the  growing  availability  of  charging  needed  in  convenient  locations,  whether they're  from forecourts  and  streets  to  workplaces,  retail  car  parks.  I  just  want  to  pick  up  on  this  because  we're  going  to  take  a  quick  trip  to  Germany  where  Carlo  Cumpelik,  Shell's  network  delivery  manager  for  Germany,  Austria,  and  Switzerland,  has  been  at  an  EV  charging  site  in  Berlin.

7:53
Carlo Cumpelik: I  stand  here  in  Berlin  at  Konrad -Wolf -Street at  the  parking  lot  next  to  the  REWE  Supermarket.  REWE  is  one  of  Germany's  leading  food  retail  companies.  This  location  is  the  very  first  REWE  Supermarket  where  we  installed  our  recharge  charge  posts.
 In  the  beginning  of  this  year,  Germany  crossed  the  magic  number  of  over  one  million  fully  electric  cars  registered  in  the  country.  The  German  government  expects  15  million  electric  cars  on  the  streets  by  2030.  With  this  number  of  electric  vehicles  growing,  our  aim  is  to  enable  as  many  people  to  drive  as  many  electric  kilometres  as  possible,  whether  that  is  at  home,  at  work,  or  on  the  go.
 REWE  opened  their  shops  at  our  service  stations  in  the  Czech  Republic  and  in  Austria.  In  Germany,  REWE  asked  us  to  deliver  a  fast  charging  experience  for  their  customers  at REWE  Supermarkets  and  Penny  Discounters.  Currently,  we  already  operate  our  charging  solutions  at  10  supermarkets  and  we  plan  to  install  Shell  recharge  charging  posts  at  a  minimum  of  400  REWE  Supermarkets  and  Penny  Discounters  across  the  whole  of  Germany.

09:15
Julia Streets: Carlo  Cumpelik.
 I  suppose  one  of  the  things  that  we're  thinking  about  is  we  talk  about  private  charging  and  we  talk  about  public  charging,  I'm  wondering  about  almost  what  you  might  call  municipal  charging.  I'd  be  really  curious  will  we  see  some  infrastructure  innovation  in  terms  of  roads  and  road  infrastructures,  almost  like  the  railways  providing  some  charging  capability.
 Elizabeth,  I'd  love  your  thoughts  on  that.

09:40
Elizabeth Connelly: Sure.  So  I  think  a  lot  of  the  conversation  around  charging  infrastructure  has  tended  to  be  about  light  duty  vehicle  charging,  but  obviously  electrifying  trucks  is  I  think  much  more  complicated  and  will  require  some  new  innovative  solutions.  So  in  addition  to  the  traditional  box  cable  charging  points  that  we've  been  talking  about,  I  think  particularly  for  these  heavy  duty  vehicle  segments  for  long  haul  trucking  or  even  just  medium- sized  delivery  trucks,  there  could  be  a  place  in  the  future  for  electric  road  systems.
 So  that  could  be  either  wireless  inductive  charging  built  into  the  road  or  it  could  be  something  that  is  a  throwback  where  we  have  overhead  cables  that  you've  seen  in  trolley  buses  of  the  past.  These  things  can  help  reduce  demand  on  the  grid  from  cable  charging  and  spread  out  the  power  demand  over  the  journey  of  the  vehicle  extending  its  range  without  needing  these  megawatt- scale  fast  chargers.

10:37
Julia Streets: So  I  wonder  if  we  could  change  the  conversation  and  look  at  it  from  a  slightly  different  point  of  view,  which  is  the  obstacles,  the  hurdles  to  infrastructure,  because  this  ultimately  really  matters  when  it  comes  to  adoption.  Ingrid,  where  do  we  see  the  biggest  hurdles?

10:51
Ingrid Malmgren: The  big  issue  in  the  United  States  is  for  charging  for  people  who  don't  have  access  to  home  charging.  People  who  live  in  multi- unit  dwellings  or  multi- family  dwellings.  It's  not  just  an  accessibility  issue,  because  it's  far  less  convenient,  but  it's  also  an  affordability  issue.
 For  people  who  can't  charge  at  home,  they  need  to  use  public  chargers,  which  typically  cost  between  three  and  four  times  as  much  per  kilowatt  hour  as  your  home  charging  rates.  It's  definitely  a  cost  issue.  So  there's  definitely  an  equity  issue  there,  and  that  I  think  is  the  biggest  hurdle  that  we're  facing  right  now,  particularly  in  cities.
 Obviously,  the  distance  between  chargers  is  an  issue  and  having  access  to  public  charging  in  places  where  there's  far  less  demand  for  it.  That  tends  to  be  the  issue  in  rural  areas.  And then  there's  always  an  income  issue.  So  if  you  rent  in  the  country  and  you  don't  own  your  home,  you're  less  likely  to  be  able  to  install  a  charger.  You'd  have  to  get  permission  from  your  landlord.  You  wouldn't  be  able  to  recoup  that  money.  So  the  income  issue  definitely  can  be  exacerbated.
 I  think  EVs  could  go  either  way.  They  could  make  transportation  more  equitable  or,  if  they're  not  implemented  well  with  charging,  it  could  make  it  less  equitable.

12:11
Julia Streets: Lucie,  I'd  love  to  hear  your  thoughts  about  where  some  of  the  hurdles  may  exist.

12:16
Lucie Mattera: In  Europe,  you  will  find  some  similar  difficulties  as  Ingrid  mentioned.  It's  about  how  do  you  make  it  a  little  bit  more  democratic  for  people  who  do  not  live  in  detached  house  but  in  multi-family  buildings.  You  have  examples  of  good  practice  across  Europe  to  basically  make  that  easier.
 In  France,  you  have  a  right  to  plug.  Basically  a  tenant  in  a  building  can  request  to  have  a  charging  station  installed  in  the  building.  You  can  also  prescribe  some  electrification  requirements  for  buildings  that  are  being  renovated  so  that  it  doesn't  cost  a  fortune  when  you  come  in  as  a  new  tenant  to  get  your  EV  charged at  home.
 On  the  point  that  you  were  making,  Ingrid,  indeed,  the  infrastructure  will  go  where  the  demand  is,  and  so  you will  have  some  of  that  imbalance  between  areas  where  you  have  a  lot  of EVs and  areas  where  you  have  fewer  EVs.  The  way  Europe  is  trying  to  address  that  is  by  setting  targets  by  law.  So  those  targets  are  both  capacity  based  and  distance  based.  So  they  are  dynamic,  which  means  they  will  increase  over  time  as  the  uptake  of  EVs  increase,  and  again,  as  the  number  of EVs on the  road  increases,  you'll  see  more  charging  infrastructure.
 Adding  to  that  a  distance  based  target,  which  means  you  need  to  have  enough  infrastructure  at  a  reasonable  distance.  They've  set  that  both  for  HEVs  and  for  EVs  and  that's  coming  into  force  next  year  and  hopefully  will  address  some  of  the  difficulties  or  inequality  in  the  spread of EV charging infrastructure  we're  seeing  today  across  Europe.

13:47
Julia Streets: Istvan,  I'd  love  to get  your  thoughts are  on  what  are  the  main  issues  for  businesses  like  Shell?

13:52
Istvan Kapitany: I  see  three  main  issues with EV  for  the  society  to  deal  with.  One  is  it  has  to  be  available.  Really  need  to  be  giving  and  offering  all  the  support  for  the  different  kind  of  commercial  ventures  to  build  out.  We  order  now  more  EV  chargers  at  Shell  Mobility  than  petrol  pumps.  That  always  surprises  people.  So  we  are  obviously  great  believers  of  letting  the  business  to  make  sure  that it  is  becoming  something  which  is  a  commercial  venture  that  you  can  make  money  out  of  it.
 Because  if  you  build  a  system  up  on  regulation  too  much,  it's  not  going  to  be  effective  and  not  efficient.  Therefore,  it  has  to  be  commercially  oriented.  It  has  to  be  reliable,  because  that's  our  main  job  to  make  it  a  reliable  experience  for  customers.
 I  was  recently  in  a  conference  and  I  asked  put  up  your  hand  if  you  had  a  problem  with  filling  up  with  petrol.  Nobody  put  it  up. Put  up  your  hand  if  you have  a  problem  with  using  a  public  charger.  Almost  everybody  put  up  their  hand.
 Finally,  it  has  to  be  investable.  So  it  has  to  be  a  business  case  which  is  making  it  profitable.  Because  if  you're  not  able  to  make  this  business  profitable  at  a  normal  price  which  people  can  afford,  it's  going  to  be  very  difficult  to  maintain.

15:05
Julia Streets: I'd  love  to  bring  in  Elizabeth  at  this point. From a  public  sector  versus  private  sector  point  of  view,  what  more  can  policymakers  and  businesses  do  to  help?

15:14
Elizabeth Connelly: Sure.  Well,  I  think,  I'm  not  going  to  say  regulations  are  bad  in  this  case.  There  can  be  carrots  and  sticks,  but  I  think  policymakers  can  do  a  lot  to  help  ensure  that  there  will  be  a  business  case.
 So  take  for  example  the  EU's  alternative  fuels  infrastructure  regulation.  This  is  basically  saying  we  need  a  certain  coverage  of  charging  infrastructure  while  at  the  same  time  they've  passed  CO2  standards  that  are  really  pushing  forward  zero-emission  vehicles,  including  electric  vehicles.  So  it's  taking  a  kind  of  comprehensive  approach,  a  suite  of  policies  that  help  build  demand  for  charging  as  well  as  putting  in  place  metrics  for  how  many  chargers  there  need  to  be  to  ensure  certain  levels  of  utilization,  and  of  course  ensure  that  that  drivers  are  able  to  recharge  their  vehicles.
 So  I  think  policymakers  play  a  big  role  in  helping  push  businesses  to  deploy  infrastructure,  invest  in  different  types  of  infrastructure.  So  I  think  taking  this  really  comprehensive  approach,  we've  seen  it  not  just  in  the  EU,  I  think  more  recently  with  the  IRA  in  the  US.  China's  been  doing  it  for  ages.  We've  seen  it  in  India  with  different  schemes  there.  I  think  a  lot  of  countries  are  really  seeing  how  this  works  well  and  I  think  it's  something  that  can  really  compliment  businesses  as  well.

16:29
Julia Streets: Istvan,  could  you  give  us  some  examples  of  where  you  think  businesses  and  policy  makers  are  working  well  together?

16:35
Istvan Kapitany: I  think  the  examples  that Elizabeth  used are  very,  very  good  examples.  So  basically  to  provide  the  policy  framework  is  fantastic,  and  you  use  the  example  of  the  United  States,  the  European  Union,  and  it  is  really  good  because  this  is  basically  incentivizing  you  to  do  the  job.
 Where  really  business  should  be  coming  in  is  that  then  the  playing  field  should  be  really  levelled  and  we  should  be  very,  very  careful  with  not  over  incentivizing  or  disincentivizing  different  kind  of  players.  That  is  I  think  very  important  going  forward.
 The  other  area  where  I  think  business  and  policy  makers,  but  particularly  governments,  should  work  together  better  is  really  areas  like  grid  capacity,  electrification.  We  do  have  over  150,000  chargers  in the  30  countries where they  are  operational,  but  as  we  speak,  we  have  hundreds  of  chargers  that  we  cannot  connect  because  there  is  no  grid  capacity  available  in  that  area.  In  some  instances  we  are  waiting  as  long  as  18  months  to  two  years  because  somehow  that  thing  is  really  lagging  behind.
 Two  areas  I  think  we  need  to  improve  the  game  is  the  grid  capacity.  It's  almost  every  country,  so  it's  not  country  specific.  Also,  of  course,  which  is  another  very  important  element  for  us,  because  we  clearly  would  like  to  achieve  our  target  to  be  an  net  zero  company  by  2050,  that  also  the  electricity  that  we  are  supplying  is  more  and  more  renewable  energy  based.  Because  in  some  of  the  markets,  the  electricity  grid and  the  electricity  production  is  not  green,  it's  quite  far  from  it.  So  we  need  to  be  working  on  that  as  well  and  incentivizing  that  it  happens.

18:12
Julia Streets: Lucie,  would  you  agree  with  that  and  are  there  any  other  challenges  you'd  anticipate?

18:16
Lucie Mattera: Istvan  is  making  a  very, very  good  point  about  the  grid  connection  and  the  need  for  grid  upgrades.  All  of our  CPOs  are  telling  us  this  is  the  number  one  bottleneck  for  the  deployment  of EV  charging  infrastructure  today.  I'm  talking  about  Europe.  Istvan  was  talking  about  delays  of  18  months up  to  two  years,  you  have  some  markets  in  Europe  where that  can  go  up  to  three  years  to  get  your  connection  and  permitting.  So  that  of  course  is  not  acceptable  in  a  context  where  you're  trying  to  deploy  as  fast  as  possible, and of course,  there’s a  cost  associated.

18:45
Julia Streets: I'm  really  curious  to  think  about  what  we  believe  our  roads  will  look  like  by  2050.  Ingrid,  I'd  love  to  get  your  thoughts  on  this.  What  do  you  envisage?

18:57
Ingrid Malmgren: If  I  think  ahead  to  2050,  I  think  that  we  won't  give  much  more  thought  to  driving  electric  and  thinking  about  charging  stations  than  we  do  now  to  driving  on  gasoline  and  pulling  into  a  gas  station.  I  think  that  through  deliberate  planning  and  innovation  and  organic  growth  that  we're  going  to  have  chargers  where  we  need  them,  when  we  need  them,  and  we'll  have  a  cleaner,  more  sustainable  equitable  transportation  system.

19:29
Julia Streets: Elizabeth,  your  thoughts  on  what  we  think  the  roads  will  look  like  in  2050?

19:34
Elizabeth Connelly: The  idea  is  that  by  2050  almost  everything  is  going  to  be  electrified  on  the  roads.  But  I  think  I  want  to  take  this  opportunity  to  mention  also  the  importance  of  reducing  private  vehicle  ownership  and  moving  to  this  public  and  shared  mobility  as  a  way  to  help  moderate  electricity  demand.  The  kind  of  challenges  we're  talking  about  with  building  out  the  grid  and  the  charging  infrastructure  can  really  be  addressed  by  reducing  the  demand  for  electricity  for  transport  in  terms  of  using  buses.  I  think  this  will  be  really  important  for  transport  in  the  future.

20:08
Julia Streets: Lucie.

20:09
Lucie Mattera: The  broader  context  is  climate  neutrality  by  mid- century  and  that  is  now firmly in the  books.  So  e-mobility,  which  has  become  even  more  mainstream,  it  is  becoming  more  mainstream  today,  but  it  would  be  so  mainstream  by  2050  we  won't  even  notice  it  anymore,  it  would  just  be  the  new  normal. Greener cleaner roads and a brighter future for all of  us.

20:31
Julia Streets: Wonderful.  Thank  you  very  much,  Lucie.  Istvan,  your  thoughts  about  what  the  roads  will  look  like  by  2050?

20:37
Istvan Kapitany: I  agree  with  everybody  who  was  saying  that  electric  vehicles,  whether  it's  passenger  cars  or  heavy  duty  vehicles,  will  be  playing  a  big  part  of  the  mobility  system  by  2050,  and  it  has  to  be  friction  free  and  easy  to  use.  More  and  more  smart  city  solutions,  more  and  more  ride-sharing,  car-sharing  activities  we will be  seeing  of  course  in  the  future.
 But  the  one  point,  and  the  last  point  I  would  make,  it  has  to  be  in  the  context  of  200  countries  in  the  world,  not  only  just  40,  and  therefore  we  need  to  be  ready  for  different  kind  of  solutions  all  around  the  world  to  cater  for  every  customers  in  this  mobility  journey.

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21:18
Julia Streets: Well,  I  have  to  say  it's  been  a  phenomenal  conversation,  because  in  a  really  short  period  of  time  we've  thought  about  the  ambition,  we've  thought  about  the  infrastructure,  the  dynamics  of  delivering  infrastructure.  We've  also  thought  about  some  of  the  challenges,  some  of  the  hurdles.  Clearly  the  opportunity  is  there,  what  the  future  may  hold.
 My  thanks  to  Elizabeth  Connelly,  Lucie  Mattera,  Ingrid  Malmgren,  and  Istvan  Kapitany.
 You've  been  listening  to  The  Energy  Podcast,  brought  to  you  by  Shell.  Listen  and  follow  for  free  wherever  you  get  your  podcasts  so  you  don't  miss  a  single  episode.
 Next  time,  we'll  be  discussing  what  role  can  oil  and  gas  play  in  the  energy  transition?
 The  Energy  Podcast  is  a  Fresh  Air  production  and  I  must  remind  you  that  the  views  you've  heard  today  from  individuals  not  affiliated  with  Shell  are  their  own  and  not  Shell  plc  or  its  affiliates.
 I'm  Julia  Streets,  thank  you  for  listening.  Until  next  time,  goodbye.

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