Hello, Internet, and welcome to Season to thirty one, episode five of The Daily Site. Guys. It's a production of My Heart Radio. It's also the podcast where we take a deep dive into america Shared sordid consciousness. It's Friday, April eighth two. That means it's National Implanata Day. So for a few we've got a favorite empanata spot. Hit it up because it's Empanata Day. Supports your empanada empanados or if there's this real term for that, I just made that up forgive my broken Spanish. But yes, I love a good empanada and I'm really cool. I didn't realize that today was such a blessed day. I'm miles great a k A pastry with filling hunger is killing. Let's go smash some top us bites while listening to Daily's eyes saying, e's so the flaky is so cheesy beef snacks. Carry me empanada Na da da da da da Empanada na dada. So sout out to Scouting Magoo on the discord, who came with the pre emptive said, if this day is going to be Impleanata day, why don't you just try this Blink one eighty two and but not to mash up. Thank you for that one. Appreciate all of the contributions on Discord, But if about us and empanadas. I'm thrilled to introduce my guest co host today, the one I've referred to as a guest co host with them a host obviously Chicago's very own Blessed Son, the wonderfully talented podcaster, producer, writer, actor, comedian, improviser. What else can I say? Multi hyphening it shockkeeps now Happy Judge Jackson Day. Happy Judge Jackson Day. She's on not Supreme Chord Happy just Jackson Day. Oh what a black people? How are we doing? Yes, everybody who is not black, turning your radio's off. I'm gonna talk to the black folks, right, radios turn them down. You can't hear this. Guys. We did it. We did it. We got our first black person on the our guest term to video of we got our first black person on the Supreme Court. Yes, that's right. First, hold on, hold on, I know what I said, I'm calculated, and what I said, our first black good Marshall count I mean on the Supreme Court right now, yes, yes, yes, yes, I mean on the Supreme Court, right, not a black woman? Yes, yes, yes, yes, all right everybody, everybody, why you can tell your cameras back on, your for your radio's back on. I just sucked up. I'm in right now. Not the first person ever, yes, not the first person ever. But thank you, Miles, thank you Myles for first sending me straight so I don't misspeak. It's a beautiful day, Miles, how are you. I'm fantastic. I love to see black people when I love to see Brown Jackson go through such a transparently hostile, misogynistic, racist confirmation process where they did everything they could while ignoring all of the things that made her qualified, and despite that, she made it through. So yeah, all that to say, you know, like I like to say, I'm optimistic, I like to say that things ultimately been towards the positive. And you know, I think in another time maybe they people may have gotten lucky trying to pick her off. But no, and it was hardening to see that her her approval ratings went up after all that nonsense went down. So yeah, they can't stop, they can't stop the moment. It was a vibe, It was a vile display of racism and misogyny. It was a vile display of picking apart an honorable person like I haven't seen in a very long time. But you know what she persevered. She is through four women on the Supreme Court. Only one of them is terrible. Uh, it's a beautiful fucking day. It's a beautiful day. So but but let's bring on our guess. You know, I don't want to come Lovely day, k K b J. That's what I thought you were going because I thought I heard you listening to Bill Withers right before I was. I was, but I posted it on my Instagram and stand, I feel like I've done Bill with us like four times, Like well, you know others is a classic. You know you can go so many ways with Bill with us. I mean, the guy was working on a factory line so deep into his career. I was like, Okay, maybe I don't have to work this job and I can just do the music thing. I can just go hit I can go hit notes twenty eight seconds long, right, or just get that YouTube version where it's ten hours long. Uh, just lovely day, lovely day, lovely day. Anyway, it is a lovely day. And today we have a very very special guest. It's not often we have established achievers in the fields of journalism and science. You know, typically we have a lot of great thinkers, comedians on. But I am thrilled to be introducing our guest today, an award winning author science and culture journalists. Her book The End of Bias of Beginning looks at discrimination and how we as a society can move forward because I think a lot of the time we just know, we acknowledge the existence of biases or discrimination, and then it just ends there and say, isn't that some ship. Well, I'm thrilled to introduce our guests today, Jessica Nordo. Hello, Hello, I'm thrilled to be here. And by the way, when you brought up Katashi Brown Jackson, a siren started going off outside my window. So the world is celebrating. At the world is celebrating. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah, we're Jessica. Where are you were? What what part of the country are you in or the or the world? If you are not in the US, I believe I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Okay, okay, are you from Minneapolis. I've been here for a lot of my adulthood. I was born in l a and grew up in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Oh, okay, are you a packer saying? Are you a Packers fan at all? You know, I would say I am culturally a Packers fan, but I'm not currently practicing. Okay, that we can keep. Yeah, I was raised in the religion of the Packers, but I am okay, yeah, right, as long as you've seen exactly wow, okay, you get the Chicago aligned the West energy swirling. Yeah, I mean third grade, I remember Packers bears, like things were, things were very hot between ourselves. And I was speaking of which I was asking, really, you saw that clip of young Prince that was like resurrected this week? Yes, Oh my gosh it, I can't believe I was telling you're telling you all earlier, when it's so interesting when you can see somebody in their youth and you're like, that is that person undeniably, there's no question about it, exactly like you you see him and you hear him, and you're like, yes, this is Prince. He's like little baby eleven year old princes Like we should support our teachers because they were really hard for us. Oh my gosh. They found him at eleven years old at the local news station. Editors like this is this is the Purple One as a child. That's amazing, praise this video. I got to see this video because I haven't. You gotta look at I mean the screen grab alone. You're just gonna melt because you're like that he's a leven year old. Like the look he's even given the camera. He's even like smizing attitude. He has more attitude as an eleven year old than like most adults. Yeah. Yeah, it's like and I think then I get I get all down on myself. I'm like, man, I have to get this this See. These are like those generational talents where it's like the energy is shooting out of them even at a young age, and you're like this, this one's special. Um, I see and I'm looking at it now, do you see? I feel like that's a meme almost. That look that they're giving where he's like looking at the camera with his eyes low. Ye see you I see that. Before we get to know you better, Jessica, let's tell the listeners what we are going to talk about today. First, talking with Jessica, you know bias it's everywhere, and like I was telling, so, like I was saying earlier, typically a lot of our thinking around it, or at least our observation. It sort of ends at observation. And I'm glad that there are people like you who are interested in the next steps to that. So we'll talk about bias, how we can confront those, and how we can potentially make a change for the bedroom. That would be something. But first, Jessica, we got to ask you what is something from your search history that's revealing about who you are? Search history? So we'll just dive right in. I recently was searching the term excited delirium, which is uh, something I've been wondering about and thinking about a lot lately because it is a made up diagnosis that has been taught. So I live in Minneapolis, and obviously there's been a lot going on in Minneapolis the last few years, and excited delirium is a is a made up diagnosis that had have been taught to the Minneapolis Police by one of our health systems. And the idea of excited delirium is that so this is a diagnosis that is not recognized by the American Medical Association But what the idea is that you can become so worked up and so agitated that your body you go into lactic acidosis. Your body becomes like highly acidic, and it can be fatal. And so police are taught that excited delirium is something that they should be looking out for when they're interacting with the community, interacting with citizens. But what happens is that because they are taught this diagnosis, when they see someone really agitated, they think, excited delirium. I have to restrain this person. This is dangerous. And then the restraint itself can be a complication that leads to death. And this is used much more against African American men, restraint and the diagnosis of excited delirium. And so I've been, you know, sort of trying to research it, figuring out what's going on right now with the Minneapolis police being taught this. They were we were told that they weren't, that they had stopped teaching excited delirium, but then recently it came out that they this health system was actually still teaching people about excited delirium. They had just renamed it agitated delirium, so to kind of get around the ban on teaching this. So is that more of a way to justify like more aggressive ways of restraining people or is it are are they trying to like pre empt some kind of like liability if someone is act but potentially, like what's the logic from the law enforcement side of even bothering to like just like distribute this information to their officers? Right? So they a lot of them have been taught that like this has been information that's been passed down for years, that this is a real thing that they need to be worried about, and that it's like it's a danger Like if someone is experience is showing extreme agitation, it's dangerous to their own lives. So in the officer's mind, they are thinking, I need to restrain this person, get them under control so that they don't go into lactic acidosis. And is that common like people dying from lactic acidosis? I mean it can happen, like with marathon runners. It can happen with like extreme exertion. But the doctors I've talked to have said, like, you can't tell if someone has a high acid content in their blood just from looking at them, just from even a doctor can't tell that that's that's the thing that it's amazing, how because you know, the first when I first heard you say this and you said they were teaching you know, the cops this basically, the first thing that I thought of was, Oh, this is just another targeting thing. They're going to use this to target black people, people of color, less fortunate people. They're gonna marginalize people. This is a targeting tool, right, And it's amazing how many professions that they will give cops to give them the right to hurt people. You ain't a fucking doctor. What the hell you like? How can you dying? Oh? Oh, that person right there has excited delirium, which I just learned about two weeks ago. I can get the funk, Like what what? It makes no sense, but it is not surprising because they will talk about or give credence to anything if it can lead to the ability to target marginalized and oppressed individuals and groups. And it's very disappointing. And there's this also this element to it where you're like, the thing we see with law enforcement is they're constantly taught all these ways to put things in your subconscious That person you're talking to is about to kill you or as an immediate threat, whether that's like the warrior mentality, a warrior approach of law enforcement officers that we see being taught, which is like, you're not there to serve and protect, You're there to fund people up in case they get out of line, and you always have to be on your guard because you are a warrior. And now you're only facing enemy combatants out in the field or whatever. That this seems like another way, a very insidious way to just almost use someone's sense of helping somebody to justify get like you're saying that key's like turning the turning, flipping the switch to like violent, a violent interaction totally. And then the you know, the sort of horrible irony of it is that then if someone does die in police custody, well it was excited delirium, right, that is then used as an excuse. It's using it as an excuse both to restrain or to inject someone with ketamine in the case you know, in many this is something that has happened a lot in Minneapolis, inject someone with ketamine and then if the person you know dies in police custody, then it can be blamed on this made up diagnosis of right, that's why I've never I've never heard of this until you just said it. And it's, um, it's a very interesting thing that, uh, there are so many terms that the people who are you know, tasked with protecting and serving us, as you know, the little bumper stick or they put on their vehicles saying it's that there are so many terms that they don't let us know about. Right, you know, they can do all these things, and then after the fact we're like, well, there's this thing called excited delirium that we you know, we look for. It was just like, what like, why not why not bring that out? Why not be if that's something that you're really looking for, then that should be you know, bullet point one, two three. These are the things so public should know and they're not. I mean the public does no, I guess because you know and you searched it, but it's not readily available, like you know, most of us have never and it's not like you need a p s A for you know, the excited delirium because it's such a problem. But yet again, it just throw it on the pile of you know, racist medical myths that we've used over the years to you know, whether it's prohibiting drugs or not giving proper medical care to people of color. Just so many, so many ways to trick your brain to just continue down the path of just discriminating or treating people a certain way. Jessica, what's something you think is overrated? So overrated? I was thinking, I think, you know, when I think about overrated, I also think about kind of like romanticized or like elevated. And I actually think being a pioneer is overrated or romanticized, being the first one to do something, whether it's the first woman or the first person of color. I was thinking about this when I was watching the Cantantry Ground Jackson hearings, who is now first black woman on the Supreme Court. And I think, you know, people romanticize is the idea of being a pioneer, Like you're breaking boundaries, you're shattering you know, you're shattering expectations, You're you know, you're breaking through barriers. But being a pioneer is really hard. And you know, when I was working on this book about decreasing bias and discrimination, I talked to a lot of people who were pioneers. You know, like whether it was like, you know, the only women in an engine in a science lab, or the first black woman to be in an aeronautical engineering company, something like that. And what I realized about the experience of being a pioneer, being the first, or being the only or being one of very few, is that there's this interesting thing that happens, which is that the majority of the people in that role or at that job have like one set of job requirements that they have to meet m but the pioneer has to meet all of those requirements plus a whole shadow set of requirements that are not written down anywhere and are not like formal job requirements. I kind of think of them as like pioneer requirements. So like if you like a lot of the engineer with women engineers and like women of color engineers I talked to, described how they would. You know, an engineer has to be really good at like technical skills, really good at teamwork, really good at creative problem solving, you know, be really on point with like math and science and communication skills. But then a pioneer, like the only black woman at this aeronautical engineering company, had to have all those requirements, plus she had to be able to work alone because she was solitary, had to work alone a lot, like she wouldn't be invited to work with other people. She had to be able to maintain her composure when people would make aggressive or you know, biased remarks, had to have like infinite patients, and so there was like this whole separate set of requirements that are not formalized anywhere. And so what you know, when I started realizing, was that one thing that happens when we have like really homogeneous workplaces, are really homogeneous disciplines or you know, fields, is that it really like artificially shrinks the number of people from the not majority who are going to be able to be in those roles because they have like double the requirements. Yeah, it's very interesting, you know, because I don't know if I don't know if I can say no one, because I'm sure some people do. But for the most part, no one sets out to be historic. No one sets out to be the first ever anything, certainly not by choice. You know, Like I I don't want to be the first black person to do something personally, but there may be some things where I could be the first black person to do something by just by default, right, and and the and you you you brought us a really interesting point about how the requirements are even more. You know, something that you know a lot of black people talk about or people of color, but you know, I'm black, so I can speak to that experience, is how we have to carry black excellence in a world of white mediocrity. And and you know, as I say that, and I'm not saying every white person is mediocre. There are some excellent people of you know, who aren't non black excellence as well. But we have to be excellent in order to be in the room, right, we have to be excellent in order to sit at the table. We have to be we have to carry this way. We have to have the grace, we have to have the perseverance. We have to be the first to walk through the fire. You know. And here's the funny thing. Well fire, that ship is alway, it's hot. Hey, this is always hot, But you got to be the first one to walk through and right to let everybody else know just how hot it is. And that is an incredible weight. Uh So, I think this is a beautiful overrated because nobody wants that. You just want to do your job right. You were just trying to do the thing that you love. But because of you know, a gemony and the way our society is, it just means you have to move through that this organism at a different pace and in a different route than most people do, one that is much easier. And yeah, and I feel you especially on that keys, because I think most especially black kids, they're you're raised being told you have to work twice as hard for half as much. And that's something I was raised hearing a lot by most people. I know that you're there's something that you already know you have to overcome a lot just to sort of get what you what you need. And yeah, I think there is like there there's like there's like this a bit of melancholy right to being the first while like you know, while we all we all are here celebrating this, we did see how hard it is to be a pioneer, like in real time, and that was that was difficult, and that was the thing that I'm not celebrating and I wish she didn't have to go through. And I think it's so it is definitely overrated in the sense where you hear, especially some of the other senators and the judiciary committee just commend that she went through. That was like, oh you were just that was you survived that, That was that was really stellar, rather than putting the energy into maybe we don't need situations where people need to survive a fucking meat grinder, and that's where we want to be. You know, I was just gonna say, real quick, do you know how exhausting mentally it is to even just think that if I want to do something, it's gonna come with barrels of hate, Like that's mentally exhausting, And then even want to do that and you're still like, I want to do that, right because I just love what I do and or I want to make a difference or for whatever we are, I want to make a lot of money. Who gives whatever your reason it is, it shouldn't come with prerequisite hate, and it just does. And it's a it's a very disheartening and exhausting thing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think, you know, I think we don't recognize enough how how much that shrinks the pool of people who are going to go forward with that field, because like you know, you know, when I was doing research about this, I found that sometimes the like the job requirement and the pioneer requirement would actually be like opposite requirements. You know, in a job, you might have to be really good at teamwork and be really social and be really good at working with other people, but then the pioneer might have to also be really good at working alone, really prefer to work alone. So like, the pool of people that can meet both, who want to meet both is so exceedingly small because they're often at odds with each other, right, and they're unfair sort of rubrics to use because on one side, you have, especially you know, you think of like all black women especially have to navigate this idea that if you begin to show your frustration or speak out against something that's happening to you, then you're being going to be labeled as an angry black person. And the fact that that is that's already an added dimension to the experience of someone who just wants to work somewhere. Yeah, it just wants to do a job. Yeah. Meanwhile, the other coworkers who might not be black can say all kinds of wild ship, behave all kinds of different ways, and they're like, well that's just terry, yeah exactly, And suddenly we're looking at a complete sense. And then you look at like you're saying, then the pool then shrinks, because now you can't just be someone who inherently wants to do a certain job or career. You have to do that and have your you're like nerves caught aized so you're not like so sensitive to all the other bullshit that you have to deal with. And yeah, that and I think that's a very subtle way of looking at how the the the imbalance that that that exists for people, especially because some people can go in it could be an asshole in U. S N. But the second there's some melon in there and a certain way the world looks at you based on our culture, then like you're saying, that's a completely different set of facts. And I know we have to move on. But just there's one thing too that it's a lot to say on this. It is as as beautiful as it is to see young black girls, young women of color look at all the women, all the women of color on the Supreme Court or just Jackson and say, oh, man, I can do that. I want to do that. That's a beautiful thing. But on the flip side, you look at some young black women who will see what she just went through to publicly on display two millions of people to get there and be like that's not worth it. And that's sad, Like, that's very sad because no white man in America saw what Judge, what what Brett Kavanaugh went through. It was like, I don't know if I would never want to be on the Supreme Court. Now, the questions, none of them, none of them did that. The lesson there was they'll hook you up right there exactly. The Yeah. The lesson was like, I guess I can do whatever I want to in high school and I'll still get on the Supreme Court. Yeah, I'll go through it because I'll have they will have my back, like and it's it's crazy, it's crazy, it's crazy. And I think that's what makes it really tragic as you think of all the people who who aren't the musicians or business people or chemists or engineers because they didn't have that secondary that extra set of skills that so many people don't need to possess, and those are all lost, that's all lost potential. And that's how quickly that ship happens. And it's that's something as simple as like you're saying it's like there's yes, there's the just the job description, and then there's the nuances of society that you then have to grapple with to be able to make it there. And that is a truly like that's a just an intense meat grinder. You know what. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll get that underrated right after this and we're back. Uh. And lastly, but not least, Lee, Jessica, what is something you think is underrated? I think something that's underrated is being a work in progress. M hm. So I think in our I think we live in a society that wants you to have the answers now and to know the right the truth now and to get it all right now and not make mistakes and be fully evolved as a human being right now. And I just think that's not how we are as people. I think we are all like constantly screwing up, constantly learning. That's like the beauty of being a human is like you get to learn and grow and change and be mentally in a different place this year than you were last year. And I think that you know, people can change and people can like grow and evolve, and so I think it's I think the idea of like not knowing is kind of underrated. Like I think that I wish that we could embrace more of a sense that we are all in process, that we are all in some you know, going through some kind of transformation, and it's okay to not know or to screw up or to make a mistake because you can just start over and try to do better next time. Yeah, and snow pants us are nice snowboarding last month and bought me a nice little snow pants outfit and I was like, oh, please keep me warm. I like, I don't do them in blue on skiing blue jeans like like a mountain, like a real gangster. No, man, you know, I put on my gangster hat years ago. Now, the snow pans all the time, some waterproof that's a beautiful that's a beautiful underrated. And you know, like I remember, you know, just speaking of working process, when I was younger, and uh, I was just being introduced to the sports world and there was this quarterback that I was like, Oh, I like this guy. He is he is he's pretty good. He throws far. You know, everybody talks about him and I started to like him. His name was Brett Farve of the Green Bay Packers. And you know, I had to go through that process of growing and realizing that you know that this is this is a terrible thing. I'm a Chicago I'm in Chicago. I'm a Bears fan. And and I grew and I was allowed to change. And if my fellow Bear fans didn't let me change, who knows, where would you be? Where would I be now? And though like, you know, you have a bad style now wearing Wrangler jeans, but you know this idea right that you're speaking to. It's the whole reason why we have such conflicts culture is that because we have because we we aren't looking at people as being able to change. That intensifies the perceived effectiveness of cancel culture, right because and I think a lot of people don't realize there's when there's like, looking, what's happening with cancel culture? Nothing is happening with cancel culture. You have a group of people who feel powerless, who are trying to do whatever they can to exert some kind of change on the scale that they're only able to, which is, well, I don't sign the deals at Netflix so I'm just not gonna funk with this person anymore. That's what I'm doing because I'm not the gatekeeper. Because real cancel culture is when the gatekeepers are the ones saying, you know what, let me pull this lever and now we're not going to let you know, abuse of women cook for or no one's going to be success full doing anything like that. But we look all around us, and that's not taken seriously in any place. You know, there's a lot of lip service paid. But when you look at the actions of the people that can quote unquote cancel someone, they're not they're not equipped to do that. And I think that also a lot of people who are kind of like really rigid in their bility, like especially with their own you know, ignorance. It's easier to say I'm the finished article right now and push back on everything and the idea that maybe you don't know everything than to just give yourself that little bit of grace or that little bit of patients to say, you know, I don't I look, there was a time when I didn't know things, and I know more like you just were constantly learning. And most people don't afford themselves that ability to say, yeah, maybe I have it wrong on what I think what a person of transperson's rights are or a woman's right to bodily autonomy. Maybe I'm able to reassess that. But I think because like you're saying, the assistant like, oh, you don't have your fully formed opinion on that already. You're not an expert on that already, why are you even talking? That's just gonna put somebody in a position where they're like, well, I don't know, Like, I'm just gonna, you know what, I'm just gonna double down on this bad take because it's better because I see I see people that are also doing that, and at least I'm not alone because I don't see as many people saying, you know, I may have that wrong, and I'm open to to learning more. Also, um makes it hard for people to admit mistakes that are serious. So I mean, I think one of the I think the you know, the me too movement was like an unfinished project, and part of it, I think part of it is is you know, has to do with the fact that like, we don't as a society have a have a space for people to say, you know what, I did that and it was really messed up, and I was really screwed up, and I am trying to figure out why I was so screwed up and what the toxic messages were that I had absorbed that caused me to behave that way, and I want to do better in the future. Like, we don't really have of a conversation about that, and so it seems like the choice is for people to just deny that it ever happened, right, That seems to be the choice that that's like the only option is to be like, oh, no, you know, it never happened. I just feel like we would be so much we would be able to make so much more progress together if we could say, yeah, I did that. It was really messed up. It was completely unacceptable, you know. And then that offers people a bridge or an off ramp to that to say, Okay, wow, that's we get that, that you're you're different now, because I think when most people just sort of do the thing like that never happened, then that that's that only energizes people more to be like, this person is vile, this person knows nothing, they're inherently evil, and they might be inherently evil, but without knowing giving people the opportunity to at least I mean not to say that there is no opportunity for that. It's just that that's not really that's not the norm is to say, y'all, I've fucked up really bad. I've sucked up really bad. And here the ways that I fucked up. I'm trying to and you do get the one off apologies from now and that, like every now and then we're like, oh wow, that that's I can the contrition is there. This person is trying to grow. But like to your point, and the especially since you know, the last presidential administration, it seems like the sort of move of the of the nation is just to be like that never happened. The thing I'm showing you video of right now, that never happened, and fuck you, and that that leads to some really dark places, right And it's crazy too because we live in a we live in an instant gratification society right now, you know where I mean, everything just moves quickly. You know, it's even to getting your music. You know, if if if an album drops, you can be listening to it at twelve o one, you know, versus when we were kids we have to at least get in that car, go to the store, get the c D. You know, like it was an extra it was a few extra steps before we could even get did that same day, right, And I think because of that, we have unfortunately put that on top of this very real thing of you just have to be you know, there is no growth or there is no opportunity for change, or if you make a mistake, it is an immediate like you made a mistake and this is why you funked up, and blah blah blah, and it's just like, oh well, ship, Like I didn't even know I made a mistake, right, Sometimes people don't. I'm not talking about equigious things like I'm even talking about, but some small things where it's like we're so quick to not allow people the chance to grow or to learn or to show their growth. That's wild. Yea, the instant gratification thing, like you're saying extent that even someone's development has to be instant, because I think that is a huge difference too, because I I feel like me growing up pre smartphone in high school gave me some bandwidth to like have take a second look at my own behavior and compare that to who I think I should be or what others are telling me I should be, and like parts to go pass through that on my own time, whereas now I feel like that that that timing is very limited. All potentially everything you do and say can be recorded, and I think that also gives people puts people in a very odd headspace as well, where you're on edge too because you're like, well, funk, am I is this the right thing? Am I doing this? Because it feels much more chaotic. I mean not to not to bring this up again, but a recent example of this is you know the thing that happened at the oscars right where everybody was like, oh, he didn't apologize fifteen minutes after it happened, and it was like, how many fights have you been and when you apologize for ten minutes after it happened? None, right, like talking to something about your wife and all the context today like this is a this is already fucking weird, y'all. Yeah, and like so so when the apology came the next day, it was like, oh, well he didn't apologize like the man did. Couldn't have twelve hours to like realize what happened. Calm down, you know, all these things, and it's it's a very it was a very weird thing where you know, everybody expects you to like come through the full circle realization immediately, where hours is too long. Yeah yeah, yeah, like we were beings that exist in time and we like metabolize things in time. I mean I even think about like the kind of the form that the apology often takes when someone does something that they regret later or get called out on later, the apology is often that doesn't reflect who I am right right when I feel like the part that's missing is like, but it does reflect who I was when I did it. Right, You're like, no, that that was me. You're right, and I don't want to be that anymore. Yeah, that that's uh. I really always like encourage people, especially like even in my own friend group, people also project this sort of like instant change or like lack of grace for themselves. Like you know, like I see it all the time, like I can't believe I did that, and it's like, yo, go easy, go fucking easy. You're in the fun. You're just as uh the radio legend big boy one day, Well, I used to work with the radio I fucked up a phote like a recording because my phone went off during an interview with Future and I was like, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did that. I apologize so much. And he's like, it's all good man. He's like, you're just paying your tuition to the School of Experience, That's what he said. And I was I thought he was gonna suck me up like I thought. I was like, you know, I thought he was giving me looks. I was like, man, when this, when this is over, like I'm gonna I'm gonna hear it. And he was so cool about it, And that really stuck with me. Is being able to re contextualize our mistakes. As you know, data gathering's the same I think goes alongside with people who are so entrenched in like the fear of failure too, is that you have to re contextualize what these things are. They're not failures that it indicate that you are a failure. That's just an experiment that went one way. And now you have a data set to work with, and now you you accumulate all this data, Trust me, you will begin to see the matrix of it all and grow more. Yeah, I love that that Like, Yeah, showing compassion to ourselves so important. Yeah, it's so important because you know, I say this to friends as well, when when they're beating themselves up or or going through something, or even if they're like not feeling well, like because we don't do this when I say, you know, if I was not feeling well, what would you tell me? You would tell me go rest? Do all think you would have compassion for me. I have the same compassion for yourself. I have the same compassion for yourself. We is different one. It's you because you are a decent person and I am a piece of guard right exactly. That's why the most I can do is root for you in your time of need. Well, this is great, okay, So I mean, Jessica, I just I just want to I just want to roll right into your work. Right. So, we were constantly living in a world where we see discrimination discrimination abounds, are cultural biases abound. I feel like, as it relates to this show, we talk about forms of discrimination and bias a lot, and I think one thing that we talk about a lot is media bias and sort of the lens at which the stories of our world are being told through people who aren't necessarily engaging with it with the same steaks, so it begins to tinge their reporting in a way that we not. It's it doesn't end up really connecting to the people that need to hear it. So I guess, I mean, you know, this is like off of I think fifteen plus your years of research into this topic. I mean just generally. I know I just said a bunch of other specific stuff, but I would love to hear kind of what your journey was to to say, you know what, I want to dedicate some time to understanding this and like what what you've seen in terms of how we can move through or improve our situation. Yeah, it's um, that's a big question. Uh yeah, So I you know, I got interested in this topic because of my own experience with gender bias in the working world. We could have a whole conversation just about that, but basically, you know, I experienced bias because I'm a woman, and I had a particular moment where I was starting out as a journalist, sending out stories to editors and not hearing anything back, and I had this like desperate moment where I was like, if I don't if this pitch doesn't land, it's just gonna die. There was like only a small window of opportunity to like make it, to make it land somewhere, and so I pitched the piece with a man's name instead of my name, and that same piece that had been ignored by everybody was immediately accepted for publication. And so that was kind of like my begetting of starting to really kind of think about this in a more systematic way, because I thought, well, that editor probably isn't like intentionally rejecting pitches by women and accepting pitches by men, but obviously there's something going on. And so that started my really kind of like lifelong interest in and fascination with this topic, which is like, what is going on when people behave when they say one thing, when they say that they believe one thing, and they hold a certain set of values, but then they behave in a different way. They behave in a way that conflicts with those values. And so I started really writing about it, reporting about it, kind of trying to understand it psychologically, developmentally, cognitively, like really trying to kind of get into what is going on here in in the mind as well as interpersonally and then, like, as you kind of brought up earlier when we were talking, at one point, I just thought, you know, I'm kind of I want to move beyond discussing the problem. Like there's a lot of documentation. There are thousands of studies that documents gender biased, racial biased, you know, biases on the basis of sexual orientation, religion, disability. Like it is well documented across every field of human endeavor. So my question then was like what do we do about it? Is there something that can actually be done? Or are we stuck just admiring the problem? And so that was like the genesis of this book was really me trying to answer that question, like what actually changes people's behavior right? And what so too? And why as you embark on that journey, like what did you have like a first sort of inclination or idea of you like my my gut is saying this is how we tackle it. And then did you end up learning a lot more about it you're like wow, like I'm so far off, or maybe you actually, because of your research into it, you were kind of on the right path. I mean I really went in with casting a really wide net, like really kind of open to everything. You know, and I had heard about certain approaches that worked, and then I had heard, you know, there's certain approaches that got pressed and then we're debunked, And so I was really just trying to get gathered as much data as possible. You know. I definitely went through kind of a dark night of the soul about halfway through the or maybe not quite halfway, maybe a third of the way through the project where I had been doing devoting a lot of time and energy to looking at individual kind of interventions like how what can happen so you and I can engage with each other in a humane and life affirming away where we recognize each other's basic humanity and individuality. And at some I remember like waking up at like two in the morning thinking it's the structures, you know, the structures are where we need to focus our effort, and really asking myself, like, you know, doesn't make sense to focus on individuals, minds and hearts. And then I came to this understanding which I fully fully which I really fully feel, you know, is true that the two cannot be separated, that the individual, what happens in our minds and hearts is what creates our structures. It's what causes us to support policies, uphold policies, vote for certain people, and then those policies and those laws and those larger structures in turn start to influence the way we think and feel and react to one another as well. So that was one thing that if you're we're kind of asking about, like did things change along the way, My my feeling about the individual and the structural and how they relate has really evolved into seeing them as fully you know, intertwined. You you know, I remember this was I don't know, maybe six seven years ago, uh with somebody asked me, who are like some of your favorite actors? Right? And I rattled off like five or six names, all men, right, and and not even on purpose, I just you know, that's just where my my thought process go. And she looked at me, was like, I ain't no women you Like. I was like, damn, yeah, there is there's a lot Like why why why did I not just name a single woman, a single performer who is not a man? And I really started to like that got to me, like and and I don't think she mentioned it like a motherfucker unit and say no women. I think she just like legitimately acts. And it really got to me and started making me think, like, even in my field, how we default to the bias of defaulting two men as the top performers or or you know, certain individuals as or certain genres or certain things as valuable or the top of the echelon, right, And and that's it. It's just a bias because even just saying who are your favorite actors automatically as a bias to male performers, right, right. And it's it's wild, how you know, And and it's just you don't even think about that because, like said, the structure has you know, like the SAG Awards, that award is called the Actor, right and these and these are things and I don't think they're I don't think you know, those things were put in place, you know, maliciously, But the bias of the structure of it has led to if somebody asked you who is your favorite actor, most people, unfortunately, the first person they're gonna say is a man. And and it's crazy because like it should like, there is no there's no difference than like the performance that a great performer gives with the bias. Well, and so it's a very interesting thing, I think too, to think about how the structure has ingrained these biases in us, and we know people like that you have you reflectively are reinforcing patriarchy or you're reflectively reinforcing white supremacy, and people of color even do this because again, it's it becomes internalized in those structures. Are there. I'm really curious what you've seen as like sort of stories of success or methods of success as it relates to a specific bias. I mean, you know, I'll allow you if there's something really interesting, uh, you know, because again I really do want everybody to hear that. Yeah, Okay, so I think we're all on the same page about our biases and the how those reinforce existing structures of discrimination, etcetera. But what what's so? What is that? What's that next path out? Or what? What? What? What was your what did you observe as writing this book? So there, I mean, there's there isn't well, I guess I would say there's not like one silver bullet, but there are like a lot. There are really a lot of approaches that has been shown to change people's behavior. So one, for instance, that I think is super interesting is about media actually, and this is this is kind of a body of research that was developed by a an American psychologist and a French psychologist of Arab origin, and they were looking at anti Arab prejudice in France, which is a really big problem. And so what they were trying to figure out is whether media reperenced certain kinds of media representations would change the way French people who are not of Arab origin would interact with people of Arab origin. And so they did something really interesting, um where they they developed these posters and on the posters they had a bunch of faces and figures of people Arab people with their names and a description of that person. And on some of the posters they were all like positive descriptions like optimistic, generous, you know, friendly, et cetera. And on the other posters they were more mixed. So it was like this person is optimistic, this person is pessimistic, this person is stingy, this person is generous. Like it created a like a really big a lot of diversity within that group of of Arab people. And they found that when when folks were exposed to the diversity poster, not diversity like people of different ethnic origins, but like people within the Arab group being really really diverse and complex and different from each other that poster. Then, as a result of UM spending time in the presence of that poster, people behaved more positive of lee and less and of less discriminatory way toward Arab folks. And they tested this by like having UM having the poster hanging like a physical therapy office for several weeks, and then they would do a test where a patient would come in and there'd be like a person of Arab origin sitting in the waiting room, and they would look at how close the other person sat next to them, things like that, or whether they would help someone who had spilled like a bat a purse full of you know, right. And So I think this is really interesting because when we talk about like representing diversity and media, they think we often think of it as like you need to show you know, someone from this social identity and someone from this social identity and someone from this you know, different social identities. I think what's really important is to actually show that within any identity you have a massive variety and massive diversity, because that starts to actually break down the kinds of stereotypes that we have about on another and right sort of taking down like these monolithic views we have of people, because I think, yeah, it is easy, especially when you talk especially with marginalized groups that because they're marginalized, that then they're they're they're then referred to as like this monolith of just people that are all the same. But yeah, that I didn't that in my in my mind, I was like, I guess that that helps because you're sort of reinforcing this idea to somebody that's like, yes, people are also diverse, just like in your group that you identify with, exactly exactly, because like the human mind often will think of their own group as being really diverse and the other group as homogeneous. This is something that just like we do psychologically, So breaking down that monolith, that homogeneity, it just makes it a lot harder to stereotype people, right, right, Okay, let's continue this conversation, but let's take a quick break and we'll be back right after this. And we're back and just continuing along with this conversation. I wanted to ask about medical bias because that's something recently, unfortunately, has been a topic in my family because some diagnoses are not made properly, and you can there's this is a very common problem with as it relates to gender, perceived, gender identity, or race. And I'm curious what what to do about medical biases too, because I think that's something that probably affects many many people, even if they're not really aware. It's a huge problem. Yeah, I mean it's it's well documented that there are disparities and treatment for women, for black people, for Latino people, for many different different different groups. So one, you know, there are there are a lot of different approaches, but one I found really interesting and that had some really good evidence behind it was something we might call structured decision making or like behavioral design. So the idea here is that instead of trying to change people's biases, you change the context that they make decisions in. And so in this case, there were a group of trauma surgeons at Johns Hopkins Hospital who were concerned that patients weren't getting adequate blood clock prevention when they were coming in for trauma, and in order to try to improve that, they started having doctors use a checklist approach. So instead of just if I'm a doctor talking to you, instead of just asking you questions and kind of deciding on my own what treatment to give you. I would actually use a computerized checklist where I had like, you know, twenty five questions and it's the same question for every patient, and then you know, I do check check, check, check, check, and then the computer out the algorithm makes a suggestion about, you know, what kind of treatment to get. And what they found was that when this approach was used, this kind of formal checklist approach, gaps between in this case, women and men's treatment disappeared. Women and men actually began getting the same level of blood clock prevention treatment. So it's just about being like, let's take this to the most objective place, which is these facts about this human body that absolutely cannot be obscured by the doctor's own biases or or what have you. That's okay, that's way in a way, you're like, God, you know, that's the part where the human, the human aspect comes into it, because despite all of your medical training and you are making those assessments, that there are moments where somehow, even though you're saying the same thing maybe verbally versus a checklist, you're arriving at a different outcome. I can I ask the question and not to say like you have the answer to this, but just in your research and in your own opinion. Basically, like speaking medically, Let's say, you know, because as a black person and who has a black mother, um, and black women are and women and black women in general are very discriminated and the biases that they go through in the medical field or as patients are terrible. And you know, I've gotten to the point, and I've even told my mother this, and she advocates for herself a lot that. Yo, if you see a new doctor or even your doctor, you know, just tell them right away. Hey, look, I'm gonna need you to go ahead and not do the things that normally happen to us when we sit in this chair. I'm gonna need you to not tell me it's your show anxiety. I'm gonna need you to tell me it's not this. It's not this I'm gonna have. I'm gonna need you to tell me. I wonna needs you to know this right up top right. And some doctors or people in general take offense to that, right, And what is it? What is it about our biases where we don't want to see them, or we don't want or if somebody calls us out on them, we kinda you know, go into the shell and instead of just hearing it and and start to make those steps forward. Two, not do those things because you know, in some cases your biases can be very dangerous, like the medical fields, right, it's a matter of life and death for a lot of people. So you would think somebody who has taken the oath to save lives would be doing everything possible to not have these biases. But if you tell them they do, they take offense to that. I what what What in your opinion allows that or doesn't allow that breakthrough to happen. That's yeah, that is I mean, it's a it's a huge it's a huge problem, you know, people not being able to face what's going on in their own minds. I think I think it has to do with a couple of different things. I think one is that people want to believe that they are good people, and when they are confronted with the fact that they've done something that could harm someone else or has harmed someone else, it's like a threat to their sense of self, their sense of who they are, their sense of themselves. Is a good person, and that is so upsetting to people that they sometimes will shut down, disengage, become super defensive, you know, just not be able to sit with the discomfort that that causes. Right. So, I mean, one of the things that I feel is really important I talked about it in the book, is like developing the skills, the emotional skills to be able to sit with the discomfort of seeing things about your own self that maybe you don't like to see, but you have to see because you can't change them if you don't look at them. Yeah, And to at least have that the the rigor or just to be brave enough to say, I'm going to engage that process and I know I need to do if I'm if my goal is to actually be a more fully formed person, then I actually it's the discomfort of self awareness that I have to really sit with, because I think that is a big thing that we try to avoid. And even to your point about how we all inherently have this view of ourselves that we are good people and when something threatens that order, it's it's essentially an existential threat to our identity. And you see, I I really first realize this about myself as it relates to me and my own like relationships, right is this is like these are the This is how a lot of fights and like romantic relationships go down. A partner points something out to the other that they don't like, and the other person takes that immediately as I'm not worthy, I'm not good, I'm fucked up. So then now your rebuttal is now completely powered by all of this fucking defensiveness, as you're saying, because now you're in the fight for your fucking identity. Rather than hearing, yeah, you know what, maybe I should, I could, I could be a little bit better about taking the garbage out, rather than being like, what are you trying to say? I do all this ship for you and blah blah blah, and it's like, that's not that's not how it needed to be heard. And to the point of being giving yourself some grace is to say, let me hear that I know if i'm if this person is a good partner to me. I know they're not trying to talk to me, they're just expressing their needs to me. And then you say, okay, can I say with that, can I find is there truth to what they're saying, and am I okay with acknowledging that there is an opportunity for me to add something to you know, yeah, and just pointing out, Yeah, the fact that this error of my thinking or you know, flaw in my reaction was pointed out doesn't mean that I am inherently unlovable. I think the fears comes from. That's where it feeling, right, like that there's something so wrong with me. I am unlovable? Yeah, And it's truly just like the real this the switch you just have to flip is yeah, you're you're worthy. Every you're worthy, Like that's the floor, right, The flo or is that you're worthy, So we're not going below worthiness unless you're like an absolutely deplorable even being, but that's the floor. It almost seems that like the being able to sit in that discomfort and being able to have a self worth that if you know, something uncomfortable is said to me or I need to live in that that I'm still worthy of ABC or things like that is almost it almost feels like that's one of the first steps to get in past and getting over like your biases, right, because about that, like you can't how are how can you. You know, mistakes are okay, mistakes are part of the experience. It's but it's what you're doing with the mistakes is what is the differentiating factor? Are you doubling down and denying that you are a fucking work in progress? Are you willing to be a bit of explorer and look at your own life? Is something that builds on itself, and you know, you're just increasing the knowledge that you're standing on rather because if if you're able to acknowledge that there's something for me to learn, you're actually adding wisdom to your experience. And that's the difference. It's when you deny that, that's when you have the wisdom. Is that is not wisdom. Wisdom is being able to have that grace and say, hm, that is interesting. I do need to look at that, and if it makes me uncomfortable, I can look at that a little bit more. But also know that by engaging with this, I'm this is an additive process. There's nothing that's being taken away by engaging in it. That's beautiful and it's expansive. It's expanding. I mean, I can tell you that like my this is like I went through a lot writing this book. Of having to look at my own biases, like every kind of bias, like there was nowhere to hide for me. You know I'm writing, I'm writing about this like I can't run away from it. But I will tell you that it has been so life altering to look at those and to deal with them and to face them and to work on them. In terms of like my relationships with other people like I, the level of like trust and just the depth of the relationships is so much stronger because of that, that that process, right and that willingness, because I mean, yeah, if you're if you're able to be kind to yourself, you like you said, I it's like after I've gone when I was really struggling with my mental health and going to therapy and ship like that, my due the way I live is so different because I no longer navigate the world in this like sort of like on a wire being like oh fuck, like am I gonna fuck my whole life up? And I'm I'm not worthy of ship and I'll be abandoned because I've experienced certain things like that in my life. When you're able to move past that and be able to see it for what it is, you're able to love people more deeply, You're able to have deeper relationship with with with with your friends, communicate more directly with your friends. There's so much that opens up with that. But like we all say, just give yourself that floor that you're worthy and and and give yourself the room to funk up. And like, yeah, if you fuck up, apologize and that's fine. And it doesn't mean yeah, you're gonna be banished and completely ostracized and become a pariah. No, it's like everybody else you sunk up. But just own that ship and really figure out how you can move through that. And that's there's the wisdom right there. All right, Um, Jessica, thank you so much for for joining us. This was a fucking fantastic conversation we just had. We'd love to have you back. Where can people find you and follow you? Support you? Here? You it was such it was just so much. It was wonderful talking too. So you can find me on my website Jessica Nordell dot com. I'm on Twitter at jess Nordell. If you're in l A, I'll be at the l A Times Book Festival in a couple of weeks doing a panel on parenting during the social upheaval people who could use that. And then in the fall, I'll be doing a tour for for when the paperback comes out, so you'll be able to finding for sure. And is there a tweet or some of their social media posting that you've enjoyed that you'd like to share with us? You know, yes, and it relates a lot to what we were just talking about. This is a quote. It's attributed to Winston Churchill, but that might be apocryphal. I'm not sure if it's actually him, but it's it's such a great, a great quote. I actually just tweeted it myself and the quote is success is being able to go from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. Wow, that's true. Unleash your inner SoundCloud rapper, folks, you know, don't let them tell you it's bad. You keep going. It doesn't matter because about you. That's so true though, that that is such a You can see how much people lose momentum just from the wrong word or you know, a weird right up or something. And yeah, that I don't let the momentum for sure, that it came up because I was set south By Southwest a couple of weeks ago, and there was a panel that I stopped in at which was about failure for artists, and it was packed. It was like every five year old in within like you know, a radius of ten miles was packed in that room, like how do you deal with failure? And a lot of people were, you know, talking about it. And I ended up talking to this one like young musician who was really struggling, and I just share with him that this, this attitude is what has helped me, you know, in my own creative journey so much, like just realizing that the failure it's not the end of anything. It's just as you pointed up, it's just another piece of data. It's the tuition you're paying for the school of experience. You just move on to the next thing. I guess what, You won't have student loans if you keep paying your tuition school of your experience. You know, there's a whole it's it's right there for you. And it's the other thing, too, is like this metaphor, it lights the river, right, you gotta just let the river take you. But the rivers have rocks and fucking snags and ship in the river that you can get hung up on, like which our tribulations are failures. But are you gonna hang onto that fucking rock or you're gonna let the river keep taking you where the scenery will change because a lot of us we stay stuck holding onto rocks and ship when we realize if you just let go, the scenery will change because the river has no choice but to take you there unless it's Dwayne the Rock jobs and then I'm holding Dayne holding onto Dwayne the Rock. Well I would. I changed my middle name to Rocky for my eighth grade graduation because you know, anybody who was like Glasian I was rooting for us a kid. Jackies, thank you so much for joining me today. Where can people find you? Follow you? And what's that tweet that you like? Ah? You know, you know what it is? You can find me in these streets everybody, Uh, and at Jackie's neel on everything, Jessica, I just want to say, this was beautiful conversation. It was great. I think probably I don't know, I've guest hosted or been on the show well over like times now, and probably my favorite conversation I've had on the Night Guy. So it was a pleasure to talk to you, so thank you so much. A couple. Also, before I get to a tweet, I know I I was on all last week and I promoted the Comedian Feud. It's also doubt everybody I sold out in less than a week. Uh So if you are in l A and you want to come, there will be some door cells on Mother's Day from May eight, but it will be a monthly show. I'm gonna do this monthly. They asked me immediately to make this a monthly show, so there'll be some chances to come to Comedian FEUs. So definitely do that. Physical Season two on Apple TV just got this release date June three. Oh, be in that upcoming season, so be on the lookout for that. Uh And some tweets. This is from at Chicago History. I gotta I got three where it says I'm from Chicago, where people say follow me and then hop on the Dan Ryan and start doing a hundred and twenty miles per hour. Very true. Very that is about the truest thing I've ever read about Chicago people in my life. Very funny. Also, Uh, this is more of a shout out tweet than anything, but the Queen the icon Jack Harry. Twenty eight years ago, The l A Times reviews Sister Sister and referred to it as hardly an epic comedy. I say, are staying power on Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime have proved that statement to be bunk. Happy anniversary to us twenty years ago, Sister Sister, and it is every bit as much of an iconic show. Such a good show, I know, twenty years ago pretty wild. So shout out became that Matt Damon gift from Saving Private Ryan where he turns like seven years old, right exactly, it's almost thirty years ago. I don't like it. And last tweet, this is very funny from at Marianna oh five seven. I don't know why is iron Man called iron Man and not fe male, because fy I thought that was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Shout out to my shout out to my periodic table fans out there, quick, yes, oh my god, un that's it. I don't know why I remember that, but I hated I hated chemistry. I'm not the one. It was terrible stickcheometry, So I fucking it's math, But I don't know what a valance electron is so fun this. Let's talk about some tweets. I like some tweets I like, uh, let's see the the oh Mike Drucker at Mike Drucker tweeted, I like when assassin's whisper as they help a dying body to the floor because they never need to be that nice, but professionalism matters. I just like that sentiment about an assassin. And then, speaking of feeling old at, Jill Krajowski tweeted the yeah, yeah, yeahs Maps is nineteen. That's old enough to have their heartbroken so bad they need to listen to Maps, which really got me because damn, I was I love you like I love you? Waituh shout out to feel it fairt Wait, what's a Karen Karen? Oh, that's who it is. You can find me at Miles of Gray on Twitter and uh what is that Instagram? Yeah for sure and the new basketball podcast Mad Boost Ease with Jack uh and also four twenty Day Fiance if you like ninety Day Fiance and Married at First Sight, That's where we hang out and get high talk about our favorite reality show. Um until then, find us Daily's like guys at Daly's like guys on Twitter at the Dailies like guys on Instagram, got the Facebook fan page and website, Daili's oys dot com work post, our episodes and our foot notes foot note thank you, where you can find the links to all the articles we talked about as well as the song we are writing out on today. I want to go out on just some more reggaeton, but from Spain. Again. I know, I know it's that that's not their thing, but this is an artist called and this track is called a Middle MS and it's uh, this one, this one was. This was kind of funny too. It's twisted. It's twisted, Okay, So check out that track. Uh, and we'll talk to you later to tell you what's trending. Until then, we'll see a bite