The Daily Show: Ears EditionJon Stewart and Mark Cuban Discuss the Price of Prescription Drugs
Jon sits with entrepreneur and Dallas Mavericks minority owner Mark Cuban to discuss his plan to bring more transparency to consumers about the real costs of prescription drugs with his company, Cost Plus Drugs. They also chat about Trump’s desire to be CEO of America and Elon Musk’s role in disrupting global discourse with X algorithms.
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What about the dail show I got tonight?
An entrepreneur, an already owner of the NBA's Dallas Marrick's, co founder of Costs Plus drug company. Please welcome, Mark Kevin shirt welcome, Thank you you are you're sir.
Security.
I didn't hear you what you said.
This is no this is a Knicks down friend. They love that. Now are people in New York?
Are they because of the history between the Mavericks and the Knicks generally with the trades where you fleeced us to a certain extent, Uh, do you find there's a kindness that is uh yeah, yeah, I'm extended to you, Nick.
Literally, if I like to walk in New York right and just today walking down the.
Street, yeah, kill man.
We love you and it's.
Crazy literally a great basketball fans here. I get all kinds of love.
And that's what you get in New York. That's what they shout at you.
Yeah, but that's what I get. Now it's more thanks for JB. Right, but yeah, that's what I write, well Jalen. But now, did you have any idea when Jalen Brunson was there? And I'm sorry to go down this road, but I'm a Nick fan and this is just you're gonna have to sit through ith Jalen Brunson was not He started in the playoffs.
When uh, yeah, when Luca got us, did you have any.
Idea that he would become this all nb a phenomenon. He's undersized, he doesn't his footwork is so phenomenal.
No, no idea. I mean, I mean he was talented, but he was picked in the second. If everybody knew, he would have been a top five pick, right, I mean, if you redraft that draft other than Luca, he is a top.
Three or five pick.
That's amazing.
It's crazy. Yeah, but more credit to him.
He worked on it, yeah, and he's and it just seems like a phenomenal guy and then decided to take a contract for less money than he could have made.
So let's talk politics.
Part the way.
Now, you are in this interesting position in your career where you've sort of above you are now, even though I think your leanings are probably you consider more independent, more libertarian.
You are the left's favorite billionaire. You'd become.
Because and I can't I don't know if it's because.
There's a certain mellowing that occurs.
As you get older, or if this new sort of tech bro phenomenon is so dystopian in its formulae.
Yeah, I mean this is all who I've always been. I haven't been like the rich guy trying to act like a rich guy. And my friends are still my high school buddies, my college buddies, my rugby buddies. But watching what's happened in Silicon Valley is insane, right right. It's not so much a support thing. It's more like a takeover thing, trying to put themselves in a position to have as much control as possible. They want Trump to be the CEO of the United States of America, and they want to be the board of directors that makes him listen to them.
It's not a good.
What is the ethos?
Because it seems like in the old days of innovation there was a certain amount of we're innervating the Internet, we're taking things. Now it seems much more about sort of this social engineering and transhumanism and we are going to join with computers and together eight of us are going to run everything dominating.
Right, Is that the ethos you see?
Yeah? I think with yeah, you just.
Said, yeah, they've gotten to the point now where they feel like they should control the world, right, and that there should be a CEO in charge of everything. But because they have a good photo app because of riches, right, you know, it's just like you get to that point sometimes where I think they've lost the connection to real world.
Is it boredom?
Like is there a certain extent like if you're like a Bezos or one of those guys, you just you've sold so many books that.
You're just like, I'm going to live on Mars.
Like it's just I think it's more what's their next act? Right, We've like we invented this, we did this, we created that. What can we do next? Somebody wants to go to Mars? Well, what can we do here back on Earth? Well, let's I mean look at Elon, right, Elon and being one of those powerful people, he's trying to be the most influential man in the world. It sounds like a commercial, but literally that's what Twitter has given.
I've got to say I think he might be that because I don't even think he's trying to be.
When you when you talk about somebody who is setting up up.
Satellite links for war zones and also controlling discourse in the most important in the platform, that would.
Think he's the most powerful because Twitter is in every almost every country, right, and so Twitter gives him the ability to connect to the prime minister, the head of every country in the world that's right, and that person whoever's in charge of that country has an interest in what happens on Twitter, and what happens on Twitter because of the control of the algorithms. Being the biggest user is all dependent on Elon Musk. He literally wherever his thumb wants to go, he gets to push his hard certainly.
I mean, he's transparent about where he wants things to go. I think he's very clear that civil war is inevitable, and that's white people are under concerning, right, It's you know, it'll be like civil wars inevitable. And then he'll write underneath there, you know, kind of an understavement on there. But I can't I can't decide whether or not. It's better to know exactly where he stands and know where he's going to be put the thumb on.
Because he's clearly.
A very bright guy, and he has a media empire that has the largest reach and most influence of anything on the face of the earth.
And there's no question he's going to leverage it in this election, no question.
But the crazy part is he has more impact globally than he does domestically in my opinion, right, because when you go on X you see a preponderance of right leaning people.
You don't see a lot.
They're all over for you. I've never clicked on any of these.
Well, that's the whole thing.
That's the way algorithms work, right, what, Yes, they do the opposite of what I want.
Yes, But somebody tells me when you write an algorithm. I haven't written a lot, it's been a while.
But when you write one, you get to set the parameters of what you want to see happen. And he certainly has done that to the things he likes. But it's different in other platforms. And the good news is what twenty percent of adults in the United States are on Twitter, So I mean there's eighty percent who aren't there.
But isn't this a certain amount of tech bro malpractice that there is this incredible need in the marketplace of something that is slightly less biased or you know, toxic when it comes through there and like they came out with threads and you're on it for two seconds and you're like, I think I need an app.
No, I like threads. Threads is getting better. Try it.
No, here's something that doesn't sell online. No, it's getting better. That may be the worst sailshit ever. Okay for any of these, but see, you you do disrupt industries like there is. See, that's why I would have thought, and I think you've said this that Trump appealed to you at first because there is a certain outsider And look, we both know our government there is a status quo and there is a capture by lobbies and by big businesses that write this legislation and end up gaining advantage that.
Needs to be disrupted.
Correct.
When did it occur to you that he didn't necessarily want to free it. He wanted to have the deed to the swamp signed over to him.
About the third time I talked to him, Right, it was he wasn't about changing. I mean the conversations I would have with him. I'm like, there was a time when are these phone conversational conversations?
Yes? Is it zoom?
No, it wasn't zoom right, that was pre zoom. Actually does he FaceTime?
No?
That didn't FaceTime right.
But like we were talking about this one debate for CNBC that he wasn't going to be at, and I'm.
Like, don going, mud no going.
And I'm like, Donald, why don't you go to a local small business and sit there at the table and just show off your business chops right, and show people your business? He goes Mark, Donald Trump and Mark Cuban don't go to people's houses and have dinner?
Are you kidding me? That's who he is.
Right when we talked about what's he going to do with the ground game out, I got all these religious people who are going to do their work.
For me Jesus. So he in his mind.
So I think this is very interesting because and maybe you know this too, he runs a fan family business, so he is in essence and monarch. It's a dictatorship, and maybe there's not as much malevolence to his actions as Oh this America can be a subsidiary of the Trump organization because this is how I run it. And they might say, well, we have checks and balances and division of government, and he just thinks himself, Yeah, no, we're going to get out of that.
Yeah, that's the sense I get.
That's what it is.
Yeah, this is my country, right, everybody else is bad? Donald Good? Okay, and so Donald Good. So whoever thinks Donald goold also come.
Along with the for the ride, right?
I mean he just brought hate and anger to politics, and that is a sales pitch.
When you talk to him.
Is that a part of his general conversation or do you think that is a strategic demagoguing of He wants to get that emotion.
That wasn't what we talked about. But I think that's Donald is a sales rep. He's a salesperson. He's going to follow what works and whatever. He's going to try all kinds of different thing. He's going to talk to all kinds of different people and he'll try things out and if it works, it's going to He's going to do more of it.
Do you see him on his heels? Now?
When was the last time that you sort of had these counseling sessions.
No, there weren't.
I talked to him probably twenty nineteen. No, I talked to him during the pandemic because I was trying to help him with different things.
Look, he's still the president of the United States.
It's still our country, right, So I tried to help him with PPE and a lot of different things, a lot of medical cares type stuff.
Sure, the guy who suggested the bleach is that you is that everything. Everything's going great, everything's working Cuban the Princess.
Have you tried drinking liquid Plumber?
I did not say drink I said in Jack all right, Paradise. So what is your relationship now with this tech world and how does AI fit into that? And how do you remain bullish on those innovations when they so clearly are working to avoid any kind of regulation of these new innovations.
Okay, two things. One, they're there because they're rich, not because they're tech bros. Or because they just happen to make their money in tech. I don't think that's really applicable the AI side. You know, I've been in technology for a long time, and you can always look at a new tech PCs networks, the Internet, streaming whatever, and say, Okay, in five years, this is what's going to happen, right, have a good sense with AI. You can't do that with large language models. We have no idea whether it's going to zig or zag or what the impact is going to be.
And that's the good news and the bad news. The good news is we're dominating right now globally the United States.
Is the bad news is in terms of in terms of are the quality and the impact of the AI and the advancements that we're introducing in AI, the research that we're doing, we are, without questioning the leader, and that's really important from a defense perspective, military, et cetera. And also you know, from a business perspective, it's going to have a big impact on this country. I personally think it's generally positive, but there's a lot of uncertainty to come.
And so when you what.
Gives you the hope that it's generally positive because I as a counterpoint, we heard the same thing about social media, and we heard the same thing about all these different innovations of the connectivity, and yet every time I turn on Congress, Zuckerberg's up there, like.
Look, I'm really sad. I didn't know it was going to kill all your daughters.
Like, no, Remember, it's still just a short window. Social media, you know, has really only been prominent last six years. And I think we'll learn and we'll evolve, and the same thing will happen with AI. There's going to be points in time where it's up right and people are using it. But I think over time, particularly with gen Z, right, gen Z is a different beast. You know, boomers are idiots. I mean we went from sex, We went from sex, drugs and rock and roll to Fox News. I mean, it doesn't get any worse than.
That, Right, And they're trying to we haven't done well, and.
They're trying to define regulations, right, and that's hard, right, That's really really true. And so I think gen Z has a better understanding and a better feel for AI and where it's going and would maybe be able to come up with better uses, better implementations, and better regulation.
Does it concern you that the implementation time frame? So when you think about the industrial revolution, right, and you think about the disruption or globalization, the disruption to the workforce, the way that labor can travel and labor cannot travel, but capital can, right, and all these different things that were kind of a race to the bottom for American workers to a large extent. But all those changes took place over sometimes the century, sometimes decades. The changes in AI the disrupt, right. So when you've got something that disrupts to maybe even a larger extent than globalization did, to maybe a larger extent than the Industrial Revolution did, and it's going to happen by Thursday, in what world are humans in any way capable and set to withstand that disruption.
I think we'll be able to withstand it. But I think it's going to be very disruptive. And the problem is it's going to happen anyways. And you know, somebody here, your son at Duke right, can say I've got this great idea, I'm going to implement it with an open source large language model, and I'm going to take it in.
That's so weird. He did say that to me, right.
But gen Z is different, right, gen Z, I think looks at humanity humanity differently. Is kinder, Like I've got three kids, fifteen, eighteen and twenty one, right, right, and they're just nicer, right, They're not like we were. So are you trying to say, like, are we weathering what is the last gasp of this kind of more misanthropic moment in history? So in your mind, whatever happens, this is going to be a more misanthropic decade that will be ameliorated by this younger generation.
Right, I hope so, because the regulatory cap the way we've always done politics right now is everybody's chasing power and nothing will give you more power than military and AI. And I think the algorithm. I mean, we've talked going back to algorithms again, right, driven by AI. That's the most powerful element in the world right now because everybody just gets whatever they're seeing reinforced. And if you want to influence somebody, just manipulate the algorithm and you'll get their attention.
And so but I think, so, what's the remedy on that if there's no one working a pushback, If pushing back on that is considered.
You just got to go censorship.
It's just one of those things where you've got to go through it.
It's an evolution of a new media model, just an evolution of technology, right, media, right, because if we don't do it, the Chinese and the Russians will because the only thing that holds AI back is processing power, electricity, and ingenuity, right, and I think our ingenuity wins.
I'm still a big believer in an American exceptionalism. I still believe that we've got the best technologists in the world, and I think that's why we have to open that door for AI.
So ultimately it becomes a question of the world is going to be carved up in the way that it's always been somewhat carved up in terms of its resources. The question is is it carved up by the Western world or is it carved up by somebody else, a different world? And do they set up a different system. And I'm assuming that Russia and China see a unique vulnerability in the West's ascension in this moment that's been the world order since nineteenth.
Everybody looks at it, right, and looks at it and says AI, if I can he who controls AI?
Right?
And so, But we've done a good job of limiting processors. The new Semiconductor Act will help us quite a bit, and we'll bring things. You know, we were already doing most of those things here.
Right, So how do you resist the ring, right, So like Lord of the Rings, the Ring of power, like it's the one thing. Boy, when you get the ring, you just don't want to let it go. How do you resist that? Because you've got the money, you've got the influence. You could be that guy. You could be setting those things up and doing all that, but you're just trying to get us like better generic aspirin, Like what is happening?
What?
No, no, no, I'm telling you that I know what I.
Know, and I know what I can do. I know what I'm good at.
Okay, and you're not tempted by the ring that's in front of it.
Because I think there's a different ring, right, Because yeah, AI could be the end all be all technologically, but that doesn't play to my strengths and the ups and downs and ins and outs are just not me. But you want to talk about pharmacy, what could be better than the healthcare system in the United States of America and make it so it's affordable.
But there's your things, there's the path, there there is I imagine when you get in that position, at that height, you can't help but hear the siren call of you could run this whole Thank you, but.
Maybe a little bit, maybe a little bit, but you know, just I hate to use the cliches, but the way I was raised, I've got three kids, right, and I don't want to miss that, you know, I don't want to be ninety five and look back and say I was president, but I didn't get to know my kids at all. Right, you know, I'd rather say healthcare and everybody's healthier, and everybody's got a better world to live in. And my kids and I have friends, were close. You know, they bring over the grandkids and the kids' kids, and that's just more important to me.
Right, And do you have your eye on other industries right now where you can do sort of the same thing.
If this pharmacy and where you know costplus Drugs dot Com stant I'm gonna get that sales pitch in there. Costplus Drugs dot Com is literally in process of having a significant impact on the drug market.
Right.
We are pushing generic drugs down down now, we're right around the corner front.
Well, you're negotiating prices in a way that hasn't been done, right.
So when you go prior to us, there was no transparency whatsoever, right, and so nobody knew what the price of any medication was, whether you're an employer playing for you.
And it's just run by these boards.
Yeah, these pharmacy benefit managers are dictating prices left and right. They're basically stealing money from employers and employees. And so we walked in there and said, what's the one missing piece transparency? So when you go to costplus Drugs dot com, you put in the name of the medication you might take. Let's just say to dilaphil, right, I know you don't know what's.
Sort of drug. I'm so hopped up on.
I have no idea.
Do you know what it is?
I don't generic sialis. As I said before, I am so hot up. When you go to cost plus Drugs dot com and you put into dila phil or what I mean.
First thing we do is we show you our cost. Then we show you our markup, which is always fifteen percent, and everybody gets the same price because we're mill order to start, we're starting to partner with pharmacies. Now there is a shipping fee, and then there's a fee for the pharmacists.
To review everything. And when you do it that way, and this is legal, of course, it's legal. Yeah, it's good old American capitalism. But let me just tell you the impact.
There are drugs that There's a drug called a matinet for chemotherapy that when we started, the price of a matinet if you just walked into a big pharmacy, a big chain pharmacy, was going to be two thousand dollars. You go to costplus Drugs dot com, it's under thirty. There's a drug droxa dopa, right, that's.
Just seen salty.
I had a friend, I had a friend Landon who was in a terrific car crash and he needed this drug droxadopa and lost his insurance.
It was going to be thirty thousand dollars every three months. I'm like, let me just check to seafood. We can get it sixty four dollars a month. And the price has gone down since all because we were transparent. But like, weren't there dudes like Martin Screlly in jail for shit like that, Like when you jack prices up like that? And why can't the United States government negotiate in terms of if you're the largest customer to any industry, it's criminal that you wouldn't use any leverage to make those things more available.
The problem was.
There's this thing called pharmacy benefit managers, right, and they're basically responsible for doing the negotiating with to a certain extent, Medicare, but with all the large employers. If you're one of those big companies that cover one hundred and fifty million employees across the country, that's who you negotiate with. And the first rule when they negotiate, they say is you can't talk about this. It's like fight club. You cannot say what your price is. You can't say what we're doing in our negotiation. And they got so big doing that that nobody ever questioned them. We come along, and actually Martin Scurelly plays a little part in this whole thing because when he got thrown in jail, I was talking to alex Oshmyanski, my partner, and it's like, if this dude can just jack up the price, it is not an efficient market. That means nobody knows what the real cost is. If we publish our price boom, the whole world's going to change. As it turns out, the FTC just came out with this report criticizing the PBMs. They used our pricing data. The smartest thing we did was so.
Now, so this brings up so FTC is a Federal Trade Commission, and boy, there's nothing the tech world.
Hates more than the FC than the FTC. So how does that square?
Well, you know, like any agency they do, something's right and something's wrong. So but in this case with the PBMs, they're crushing them and it's justified.
Now is it something that can't be done throughout the.
Healthcare Because one of the difficulties with healthcare is the contingencies of you can't really comparison shop. When you have a heart attack, you're basically saying, drive me to.
The closest hospital and take care of it.
But those prices you're.
Talking about, you could get heart attack treatment at this hospital it's one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, but you go up the street and it's twelve thousand.
And it's all about knows what's and what happens is who's pain?
When you, you know, God forbid, have a heart attack and you go there and let's just say it's going through your employer, right, your employer has no idea what they're paying. And so what we're saying is on drugs first, and now we're just getting it approved today. We're going to publish all contracts. Never before has it been done where for my companies. We're saying, if you want to do business with us, if this hospital system wants to work with my companies, whatever it may be, we're going to publish them and put them online for anybody to see all of our pricing.
So the right way.
I think that's fantastic, But I'm curious, set why is there such pushback on this idea of applying those same kinds of competitions and things to our healthcare sism.
You know, we talk about what we have about a privatized healthcare sism and it's the best in the world, but very clearly it.
Doesn't function like a free market.
No, it's not in the money way at all.
So what is so terrible about getting everybody healthcare?
Like? Why is that such?
That's the moone thats But these companies, these PBMs and the big insurance companies they call them the buka's the largest insurance companies, right, they are so big, Like like I keep on saying, big employers cover one hundred and fifty million people, right, And the CEO of this big company doesn't know much about healthcare and their health care costs, and so they just say to them, Okay, we're going to write you a check for a rebate, even though it's your sickest.
Employees that are paying for that rebate.
Right.
They just don't know.
And it's so.
Interesting because it's such a non villainous you know, nobody ever talks about like big prescription benefit manager, right.
Like that's a good tell me.
It's always like big oil is going to.
Come down, or big tobacco or big farm, And it's really like the pbaig middle manager.
Yeah, that's what it is, right, and you cut them out, right, there's no reason for the big ones that are controlled ninety percent of the prescriptions that are filled, there's.
No reason for them to exist. There are others that are called pass through PBMs, right, that show you all your claims, show you all your data, show you all your pricing, that do it for a fraction of the price. Right, So there's an opportunity to disruption.
Disruption be like to see what's that? Now, what's what else you have your eye on?
It's for healthcare, healthcare.
It's going to be healthcare health care. I'm with that.
I'm with that too, and it might be, you know, with that money, if you could help the Knicks get okay, forget it, it's all fine. Thank you very much for coming by. It's always a fascinating conversation.
Check out costplus Drugs dot com.
Mark Kevin Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show wherever you get your podcasts. Watch The Daily Show week nights at eleven ten Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount
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