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I guess tonight is the CNN anchor, chief national security analyst, and best selling author whose latest book is called The Return of Great Powers, Russia, China and the Next World War.

I guess tonight is the CNN anchor, chief national security analyst, and best selling author whose latest book is called The Return of Great Powers, Russia, China and the Next World War.

Please welcome, Jim Shootout.

Please welcome, Jim Shootout.

We have a here.

We have a here.

We turned of the Great Powers, Russia, China and the Next the Next World War. What are we talking is it's going to be a cold war, a hot war.

We turned of the Great Powers, Russia, China and the Next the Next World War. What are we talking is it's going to be a cold war, a hot war.

It's an uplifting story, you know something.

It's an uplifting story, you know something.

Yeah, it's a lovely read that I read to my kid just to scare him to do better in school.

Yeah, it's a lovely read that I read to my kid just to scare him to do better in school.

To be honest, it's a.

To be honest, it's a.

Warning, right, And I've spent a lot of years in these places, tracking these things which which I think we have to be concerned about. So it's meant to be a warning, and I think it's a serious one. But I also think going into it, we that is, the people who want a world not run by autocrats, right and not into about half of us, well yeah, more, maybe maybe even more, we have some advantages going into it, right, So so I direct over time to ways that we could find a way forward, right, avoid the next World war, but also come out on top with the things that we hold valuable.

Warning, right, And I've spent a lot of years in these places, tracking these things which which I think we have to be concerned about. So it's meant to be a warning, and I think it's a serious one. But I also think going into it, we that is, the people who want a world not run by autocrats, right and not into about half of us, well yeah, more, maybe maybe even more, we have some advantages going into it, right, So so I direct over time to ways that we could find a way forward, right, avoid the next World war, but also come out on top with the things that we hold valuable.

It provides in some ways a blueprint to get past that, but also looks back as to how we've gotten where we are right now. You're focusing a lot about where we're on this moment with Ukraine, talk about where we are with China. You call this a post post Cold War moment? How do you draw that line from the Cold War to the post post Cold War?

It provides in some ways a blueprint to get past that, but also looks back as to how we've gotten where we are right now. You're focusing a lot about where we're on this moment with Ukraine, talk about where we are with China. You call this a post post Cold War moment? How do you draw that line from the Cold War to the post post Cold War?

So you know, for my generation and you're younger than me, but.

So you know, for my generation and you're younger than me, but.

Twenties, Max, we remember that moment.

Twenties, Max, we remember that moment.

We remember that night followed the Wall nineteen eighty nine, followed the Berlin Wall, collapse of the Soviet Union. This was we thought bringing about a period of peace, and it did for a time. I mean, the Cold War was over and for a very brief moment in time, the US and Russia, if not friends, found a way to go forward. And with China, even if it was growing more powerful. We thought that Russia and China that we could work with them all the time, and there's still ways we could work with them. But we thought that they wanted what we wanted, right, We were mirroring to some extent, And the truth is they don't really want what we want to a large degree, because they see it, and to be fair, they're seeing this from a different perspective. They see our world order as being to our advantage and not theirs. So they see it as in their interests to make America weaker and to undermine that system. Now, that'd be clear when I talked to folks you know, in Europe, in Asia, here in the US. They don't believe that China and Russia want to go to war with us, right, you know, there are smart enough people to know that that would be a horrible war to be.

We remember that night followed the Wall nineteen eighty nine, followed the Berlin Wall, collapse of the Soviet Union. This was we thought bringing about a period of peace, and it did for a time. I mean, the Cold War was over and for a very brief moment in time, the US and Russia, if not friends, found a way to go forward. And with China, even if it was growing more powerful. We thought that Russia and China that we could work with them all the time, and there's still ways we could work with them. But we thought that they wanted what we wanted, right, We were mirroring to some extent, And the truth is they don't really want what we want to a large degree, because they see it, and to be fair, they're seeing this from a different perspective. They see our world order as being to our advantage and not theirs. So they see it as in their interests to make America weaker and to undermine that system. Now, that'd be clear when I talked to folks you know, in Europe, in Asia, here in the US. They don't believe that China and Russia want to go to war with us, right, you know, there are smart enough people to know that that would be a horrible war to be.

A hot one.

A hot one.

That said, they're willing to push the limits pretty far, I mean, and one that we saw just in the last few years, right, is the largest invasion, the largest land war in Europe in eighty years. Right, I mean, that's a pretty big deal. Yeah, that shows how far they're willing to push the liber.

That said, they're willing to push the limits pretty far, I mean, and one that we saw just in the last few years, right, is the largest invasion, the largest land war in Europe in eighty years. Right, I mean, that's a pretty big deal. Yeah, that shows how far they're willing to push the liber.

Well, you wrote this book obviously before the terrorist attacks in Russia just a week ago. I'm wondering how you see an attack like that affecting some of these some of these pathways.

Well, you wrote this book obviously before the terrorist attacks in Russia just a week ago. I'm wondering how you see an attack like that affecting some of these some of these pathways.

Well, listen, post nine to eleven. That was a period when the US and Russia actually worked together on terror. They were sharing information and so on. It and it showed that there are times that you have shared interests and that's a good thing. And there are other things too. The US and China actually at times work together on climate change.

Well, listen, post nine to eleven. That was a period when the US and Russia actually worked together on terror. They were sharing information and so on. It and it showed that there are times that you have shared interests and that's a good thing. And there are other things too. The US and China actually at times work together on climate change.

That's not a bad.

That's not a bad.

Thing, but the whole host of things that we don't work together on or like at log our heads on that period with Russia, certainly, and to the point where the reporting is that the US actually warned Russia that an attack like this was in the offing, and Putin basically ignored that warning. You know, that's partly a lack of trust, which is important. It's partly a lack of communication. That those channels just aren't open anymore. So that's a sign of one of the dangerous trends here is that we don't talk in ways that we used to. And I'm not necessarily talking about happy talk, right, but we don't have hotlines and right that we used to, which are important to keep small things from becoming bigger things. Yeah, and those hotlines developed because in the last Cold War we got really damn close, right. I mean, if you think the Cuban missile crisis, right, I mean that was fair. And I talk about this in the book because it's about learning lessons from history as well, but that came close to it.

Thing, but the whole host of things that we don't work together on or like at log our heads on that period with Russia, certainly, and to the point where the reporting is that the US actually warned Russia that an attack like this was in the offing, and Putin basically ignored that warning. You know, that's partly a lack of trust, which is important. It's partly a lack of communication. That those channels just aren't open anymore. So that's a sign of one of the dangerous trends here is that we don't talk in ways that we used to. And I'm not necessarily talking about happy talk, right, but we don't have hotlines and right that we used to, which are important to keep small things from becoming bigger things. Yeah, and those hotlines developed because in the last Cold War we got really damn close, right. I mean, if you think the Cuban missile crisis, right, I mean that was fair. And I talk about this in the book because it's about learning lessons from history as well, but that came close to it.

To a global nuclear war.

To a global nuclear war.

And after that, folks like Kennedy iven Khrushchev said, we got to find ways that doesn't happen. We don't get that closer. Let's have hotlines, let's negotiate some nuclear treaties, et cetera. And the thing is, we have to get back to that point because right now we're going this way, We're not going this way.

And after that, folks like Kennedy iven Khrushchev said, we got to find ways that doesn't happen. We don't get that closer. Let's have hotlines, let's negotiate some nuclear treaties, et cetera. And the thing is, we have to get back to that point because right now we're going this way, We're not going this way.

I mean, it's interesting.

I mean, it's interesting.

You do talk a lot about that you have to keep these lines of communication open, and you also have a chapter or you look at this madman theory.

You do talk a lot about that you have to keep these lines of communication open, and you also have a chapter or you look at this madman theory.

Donald Trump brags about.

Donald Trump brags about.

The relationship that he has with Vladimir Potney, brags about what he did with Kim Jong un, and I think on one hand, you can see through what that means and what he wants from that. On the other hand, he's talking about legitimate connections. You actually even talk about some of the success as Trump had with his relationship with Kim John Un, and this madman theory in some sense of being so big, so bragg and do show that tactically that sometimes can be beneficial in ways that other tactics can't true.

The relationship that he has with Vladimir Potney, brags about what he did with Kim Jong un, and I think on one hand, you can see through what that means and what he wants from that. On the other hand, he's talking about legitimate connections. You actually even talk about some of the success as Trump had with his relationship with Kim John Un, and this madman theory in some sense of being so big, so bragg and do show that tactically that sometimes can be beneficial in ways that other tactics can't true.

Listen, opening channels is not a bad thing, right, you know, sitting down with Kim Joe nun is not a bad thing, or with Putin or she.

Listen, opening channels is not a bad thing, right, you know, sitting down with Kim Joe nun is not a bad thing, or with Putin or she.

We have to be talking.

We have to be talking.

That's better than not talking, because when you don't talk, I mean that's true relationships as well, right, where you don't.

That's better than not talking, because when you don't talk, I mean that's true relationships as well, right, where you don't.

Jim, safe things, Jim, we got to say. But you're here to talk about the book.

Jim, safe things, Jim, we got to say. But you're here to talk about the book.

Jim, you talk about the Cold War, the next war?

Jim, you talk about the Cold War, the next war?

All right, you gotta talk.

All right, you gotta talk.

Talking is not bad, but you also have to have realistic expectations. So so Trump had three face to face meeting with Kim Joe ND went nowhere, right, there were no agreements, but sheer force of personality is not going to change their long term interest. The worrisome thing, right is that for Russia and China, these are strategic decisions to undermine the US and the system as it stands today again because they look at it as aligned against them, kind of skewed against them. So the strongest personality in the world is not going to change long term strategic interest.

Talking is not bad, but you also have to have realistic expectations. So so Trump had three face to face meeting with Kim Joe ND went nowhere, right, there were no agreements, but sheer force of personality is not going to change their long term interest. The worrisome thing, right is that for Russia and China, these are strategic decisions to undermine the US and the system as it stands today again because they look at it as aligned against them, kind of skewed against them. So the strongest personality in the world is not going to change long term strategic interest.

Right.

Right.

And if Trump imagines as he does, and by the way, don't trust me, I talk to folks who advised him at the most senior levels in his last administration. If Trump believes, by his personality alone, he's going to fundamentally change that dynamic.

And if Trump imagines as he does, and by the way, don't trust me, I talk to folks who advised him at the most senior levels in his last administration. If Trump believes, by his personality alone, he's going to fundamentally change that dynamic.

It just doesn't line up with reality. Right. Doesn't mean talking.

It just doesn't line up with reality. Right. Doesn't mean talking.

Is a bad idea, but you have to know who you're dealing with here, and you have to know what they're what they're seeking to do, and you have to be clear to say I'm not gonna let that happen.

Is a bad idea, but you have to know who you're dealing with here, and you have to know what they're what they're seeking to do, and you have to be clear to say I'm not gonna let that happen.

Yeah, you talk to a lot of Trump insiders here. I think something that stood out in reading this was we'd heard stories about Trump's desire to pull out of NATO, and I think you kind of walk through how close that was to becoming a reality. And when I find compelling, like that's a big issue right now, and I will I will say when I go out and I talk to people at MAGA events, you know there's an isolation as attitude, to say the least.

Yeah, you talk to a lot of Trump insiders here. I think something that stood out in reading this was we'd heard stories about Trump's desire to pull out of NATO, and I think you kind of walk through how close that was to becoming a reality. And when I find compelling, like that's a big issue right now, and I will I will say when I go out and I talk to people at MAGA events, you know there's an isolation as attitude, to say the least.

But I do.

But I do.

Think a lot of people don't when you bring up something like NATO, the idea of pulling out of NATO is a no brainer. We want to be to ourselves that's it doesn't serve us any and it doesn't do us any good. And I will also say as a younger generation, as somebody who's twenty four. As you pointed out, like the conversation at Hi school about the Cold War was short.

Think a lot of people don't when you bring up something like NATO, the idea of pulling out of NATO is a no brainer. We want to be to ourselves that's it doesn't serve us any and it doesn't do us any good. And I will also say as a younger generation, as somebody who's twenty four. As you pointed out, like the conversation at Hi school about the Cold War was short.

Our understanding of NATO we don't have.

Our understanding of NATO we don't have.

We are so disconnected from the realities of what that was created for that I think like the discussions we're having right now about the importance of NATO are falling on deaf ears on one party and one candidate, but also on deaf ears on I think an electorate that isn't educated in history in a way to understand what NATO is supposed to do. Is this also a crisis of education one hundred percent.

We are so disconnected from the realities of what that was created for that I think like the discussions we're having right now about the importance of NATO are falling on deaf ears on one party and one candidate, but also on deaf ears on I think an electorate that isn't educated in history in a way to understand what NATO is supposed to do. Is this also a crisis of education one hundred percent.

I mean, you know as well as me that the baseball bat doesn't work right. When you're trying to convince people of the importance of these things or how it served our interests over time, you have just remind people and make an argument as to what we gain from it. I mean, I think when you look at a place like Ukraine. So Ukraine is a country of forty minutes, it's the largest country in Europe. I've spent a lot of time there. They're lovely people, right, they don't want much more than what we have, which is to be able to choose your own leaders, travel where you want to go, and not get dumb off of building balconies. Right, if you write a critical piece about the person in charge of the country, I might be speaking about how Russia. You know what life is like in Russia today, that's the way it is. They don't want that, they don't want to live under that. So you have you know, you have a sympathetic case as to why to help these people, or why to help the Taiwanese people defend themselves from China. But then you have a self interested case, which is that you know, NATO has stood by the US. The only time NATO has invoked its mutual defense agreement was Post nine to eleven and they went to war with US in Afghanistan Post nine to eleven.

I mean, you know as well as me that the baseball bat doesn't work right. When you're trying to convince people of the importance of these things or how it served our interests over time, you have just remind people and make an argument as to what we gain from it. I mean, I think when you look at a place like Ukraine. So Ukraine is a country of forty minutes, it's the largest country in Europe. I've spent a lot of time there. They're lovely people, right, they don't want much more than what we have, which is to be able to choose your own leaders, travel where you want to go, and not get dumb off of building balconies. Right, if you write a critical piece about the person in charge of the country, I might be speaking about how Russia. You know what life is like in Russia today, that's the way it is. They don't want that, they don't want to live under that. So you have you know, you have a sympathetic case as to why to help these people, or why to help the Taiwanese people defend themselves from China. But then you have a self interested case, which is that you know, NATO has stood by the US. The only time NATO has invoked its mutual defense agreement was Post nine to eleven and they went to war with US in Afghanistan Post nine to eleven.

So you have that.

So you have that.

But also, a peaceful Europe that is free from Russian domination is in our interests. It's a vibrant Europe, it's an economically healthy Europe. We sell a lot of stuff there. We could go do business there, we could send our kids to semesters abroad there. That kind of thing. Things we buy are cheaper here because it's peaceful there, and you can say the same thing about Asia. You know, half the stuff in our homes comes through shipping lanes in Asia, which the US helps keep open. So you have both a sympathetic case to make for this kind of thing and a values case, but you also have a helf interested case because we benefited that from that for years, and not not just since the last Cold War, but even going back to like eighty years ago post World War Two, that NATO and other treaties helped keep the peace pretty much. It's not perfect, but they did prevent so far, right, you know, the next World war.

But also, a peaceful Europe that is free from Russian domination is in our interests. It's a vibrant Europe, it's an economically healthy Europe. We sell a lot of stuff there. We could go do business there, we could send our kids to semesters abroad there. That kind of thing. Things we buy are cheaper here because it's peaceful there, and you can say the same thing about Asia. You know, half the stuff in our homes comes through shipping lanes in Asia, which the US helps keep open. So you have both a sympathetic case to make for this kind of thing and a values case, but you also have a helf interested case because we benefited that from that for years, and not not just since the last Cold War, but even going back to like eighty years ago post World War Two, that NATO and other treaties helped keep the peace pretty much. It's not perfect, but they did prevent so far, right, you know, the next World war.

That's important. We benefit from that.

That's important. We benefit from that.

You talked about this not just being a downer. There is a blueprint for some optimism there where do you see that?

You talked about this not just being a downer. There is a blueprint for some optimism there where do you see that?

So a couple of things, One like, we don't want to look at them as ten feet tall Russia or China. They make mistakes. So I mean, prior to the Ukraine invasion. You've probably heard this too, a lot of folks were like, Putin's way too smart. He's playing three dimensional chess with the West, all that kind stuff.

So a couple of things, One like, we don't want to look at them as ten feet tall Russia or China. They make mistakes. So I mean, prior to the Ukraine invasion. You've probably heard this too, a lot of folks were like, Putin's way too smart. He's playing three dimensional chess with the West, all that kind stuff.

He will never do it. Behold, he invades.

He will never do it. Behold, he invades.

I think nobody knows how chess works exactly.

I think nobody knows how chess works exactly.

People use that metaphor, it's like, we don't we don't really have a good understanding of that.

People use that metaphor, it's like, we don't we don't really have a good understanding of that.

My year old daughter beats me a chess back, so they focus.

My year old daughter beats me a chess back, so they focus.

So you know, they make mistakes too, and he got himself in a horrible war, which you know he's effectively using right. And China makes mistakes as well, and its economy is you know, it's definitely flattening out this idea that China's is.

So you know, they make mistakes too, and he got himself in a horrible war, which you know he's effectively using right. And China makes mistakes as well, and its economy is you know, it's definitely flattening out this idea that China's is.

Going to be growing forever.

Going to be growing forever.

They've got weaknesses as well, So you want to start with we have advantages. The US economy is growing. You know, we have an open society. People buy and want to buy American stuff, right, they don't want to buy Russian cell phones. Right, you know we we we there's a reason for that, right, I haven't tried.

They've got weaknesses as well, So you want to start with we have advantages. The US economy is growing. You know, we have an open society. People buy and want to buy American stuff, right, they don't want to buy Russian cell phones. Right, you know we we we there's a reason for that, right, I haven't tried.

I tried.

I tried.

So we have advantages in that sense. We have a lot of friends and allies. One thing, when you look at Russian China, they don't have allies. I mean, Russia's biggest allies right now are China, North Korean Iran. I mean, we have all of Europe in effect on our side. We shared values, so we have advantages going in and then in terms of how to find a path so that we don't go to war. I mean, people ask me this, They're like, well, it sounds like you're making the case to go to war against Russia and China. And I always say them, I said this before we came on. I've got a thirteen year old and fifty year old boy. They're like a minute away from draft age. And I'm sure folks in the audience who have kids think the same thing.

So we have advantages in that sense. We have a lot of friends and allies. One thing, when you look at Russian China, they don't have allies. I mean, Russia's biggest allies right now are China, North Korean Iran. I mean, we have all of Europe in effect on our side. We shared values, so we have advantages going in and then in terms of how to find a path so that we don't go to war. I mean, people ask me this, They're like, well, it sounds like you're making the case to go to war against Russia and China. And I always say them, I said this before we came on. I've got a thirteen year old and fifty year old boy. They're like a minute away from draft age. And I'm sure folks in the audience who have kids think the same thing.

You don't want them on.

You don't want them on.

A US aircraft carrier on the Taiwan Straight if the US and China were to go to war. I don't want that. I don't want that either. But we can learn from history here, right. One thing is communication lines matter. There's a reason why Kennedy and kruse Cheff were like, we got really close. I gotta have a phone on my desk. You gotta have a phone on your desk so this doesn't happen again. Those things have faded over time, and with China and a lot of respects, we haven't had them. They've come and gone when relationships have gone up and down. So communication matters. Treaties matter. You know, we negotiated those nuclear arms treaties again to keep the US and Russia from going to war and kind of like just beating each other to death in a nuclear arms race. A lot of those treaties have gone away in the last several years, and there are Americans that are like, ah, we don't need those treaties. Well, actually they kind of help, right, And we have no treaties with China when it comes to nuclear weapons.

A US aircraft carrier on the Taiwan Straight if the US and China were to go to war. I don't want that. I don't want that either. But we can learn from history here, right. One thing is communication lines matter. There's a reason why Kennedy and kruse Cheff were like, we got really close. I gotta have a phone on my desk. You gotta have a phone on your desk so this doesn't happen again. Those things have faded over time, and with China and a lot of respects, we haven't had them. They've come and gone when relationships have gone up and down. So communication matters. Treaties matter. You know, we negotiated those nuclear arms treaties again to keep the US and Russia from going to war and kind of like just beating each other to death in a nuclear arms race. A lot of those treaties have gone away in the last several years, and there are Americans that are like, ah, we don't need those treaties. Well, actually they kind of help, right, And we have no treaties with China when it comes to nuclear weapons.

There are no.

There are no.

Treaties regarding cyber weapons, there are no treaties reding regarding weapons in space. I mean Russia just you know, probably saw our story a few weeks ago, talked about putting a nuke in space to knockout satellites, which, by the way, if you think about this war being a million miles away from us, you know, with cyber attacks or with attack in space, we lose all the technology we depend on every day, GPS and communications and internet and the financial market stop. So you know, this stuff affects us at home. We need treaties for that stuff.

Treaties regarding cyber weapons, there are no treaties reding regarding weapons in space. I mean Russia just you know, probably saw our story a few weeks ago, talked about putting a nuke in space to knockout satellites, which, by the way, if you think about this war being a million miles away from us, you know, with cyber attacks or with attack in space, we lose all the technology we depend on every day, GPS and communications and internet and the financial market stop. So you know, this stuff affects us at home. We need treaties for that stuff.

We are heading to the good news and you you mentioned a nuclear weapon in space.

We are heading to the good news and you you mentioned a nuclear weapon in space.

This is why my kids love talking to their dads. This is what I bring home.

This is why my kids love talking to their dads. This is what I bring home.

But the final thing is that you can with those treaties, they can help they can help this going down a bad path. And the final thing is that communicating what you want won't stand for matters, right, I mean, if you look, I speak a lot to the Estonian Prime Minister here Astonia, who's like right on the front lines of this, right next to Russia, and she constantly quoted Churchill about Hitler, which is an appeaser, is the one who feeds the crocodile expecting that he'll be its last meal. The thing is that the parallels between a Hitler and a Putin is that if you give a little ground, he tends to take more. You know, he took a piece of Georgia in two thousand and eight, and he took Ukraine in twenty fourteen, then invaded again. Did clear communication, and we learned this from Hitler. You know, if you are soft and don't tell them what's too far for you, they might then take advantage and move forward. So the US, I think and its allies can be confident say we're not going to allow you to invade countries because borders matter to us, and there are friends, and we're going to stand in the way, and the costs are going to be high for you.

But the final thing is that you can with those treaties, they can help they can help this going down a bad path. And the final thing is that communicating what you want won't stand for matters, right, I mean, if you look, I speak a lot to the Estonian Prime Minister here Astonia, who's like right on the front lines of this, right next to Russia, and she constantly quoted Churchill about Hitler, which is an appeaser, is the one who feeds the crocodile expecting that he'll be its last meal. The thing is that the parallels between a Hitler and a Putin is that if you give a little ground, he tends to take more. You know, he took a piece of Georgia in two thousand and eight, and he took Ukraine in twenty fourteen, then invaded again. Did clear communication, and we learned this from Hitler. You know, if you are soft and don't tell them what's too far for you, they might then take advantage and move forward. So the US, I think and its allies can be confident say we're not going to allow you to invade countries because borders matter to us, and there are friends, and we're going to stand in the way, and the costs are going to be high for you.

That doesn't.

That doesn't.

That doesn't necessarily mean we're going to go We're going to take you to war by any means, but that we defend our friends and we're going to be strong, and those those messages matter over time, and if you look back, sometimes clear messaging can can prevent miscalculation and can prevent the guy on the other side thinking he could take advantage of you.

That doesn't necessarily mean we're going to go We're going to take you to war by any means, but that we defend our friends and we're going to be strong, and those those messages matter over time, and if you look back, sometimes clear messaging can can prevent miscalculation and can prevent the guy on the other side thinking he could take advantage of you.

Well, it's a great rate. The Return of Great Powers available now. Be sure to check out CNN Newsroom on Max.

Well, it's a great rate. The Return of Great Powers available now. Be sure to check out CNN Newsroom on Max.

Jim shoot Out. Thanks so much, take great Greg go back right after that.

Jim shoot Out. Thanks so much, take great Greg go back right after that.

My guest tonight is an investigative reporter at Notice whose new book is called Means of Control, How the hidden alliance of tech and government is creating a new American surveillance State.

My guest tonight is an investigative reporter at Notice whose new book is called Means of Control, How the hidden alliance of tech and government is creating a new American surveillance State.

Please welcome Byron tau By Run. I got this book.

Please welcome Byron tau By Run. I got this book.

Scared me, Okay, I gotta be real, honest, it scared me.

Scared me, Okay, I gotta be real, honest, it scared me.

It's fascinating.

It's fascinating.

I don't want to scare people away, but there was a lot of revelatory things in here.

I don't want to scare people away, but there was a lot of revelatory things in here.

Now I.

Now I.

Have some skepticism, and I understand that technology. A lot of times, these tech world, these tech apps, they're tracking me. They have a lot of data. I understand the government maybe not always above board, but you found a way to put these two together like a ham and cheese sandwich of paranoia. And tell me, I feel like a lot of this starts. What started to surprise me starts here at these digital advertising exchanges. Right start with me there? What do I need to understand about a digital advertising exchange?

Have some skepticism, and I understand that technology. A lot of times, these tech world, these tech apps, they're tracking me. They have a lot of data. I understand the government maybe not always above board, but you found a way to put these two together like a ham and cheese sandwich of paranoia. And tell me, I feel like a lot of this starts. What started to surprise me starts here at these digital advertising exchanges. Right start with me there? What do I need to understand about a digital advertising exchange?

Sure, so that banner ad that you see every time you load an app or a website that's tracking you in more ways than one. Every time you load something like that and you see a little display ad, you're actually passing a ton of information back to these technology companies that are vacuuming it up. They're collecting it, they're trying to build profiles of you. And there are thousands of them that are all getting this data every time you load an app. And some of those entities are actually saving that data. They're brokering it. It's become a big business model, so they're selling it to other entities. So whenever you give a weather app permission to know your location, your location is actually being passed back to this mind numbingly complex system of digital advertising. And there are thousands of parties there that can collect it. Even if they're not the one that serves you the ad and so a lot of is saved and resold.

Sure, so that banner ad that you see every time you load an app or a website that's tracking you in more ways than one. Every time you load something like that and you see a little display ad, you're actually passing a ton of information back to these technology companies that are vacuuming it up. They're collecting it, they're trying to build profiles of you. And there are thousands of them that are all getting this data every time you load an app. And some of those entities are actually saving that data. They're brokering it. It's become a big business model, so they're selling it to other entities. So whenever you give a weather app permission to know your location, your location is actually being passed back to this mind numbingly complex system of digital advertising. And there are thousands of parties there that can collect it. Even if they're not the one that serves you the ad and so a lot of is saved and resold.

And so what you're telling me here is well some of that I assume, Right. I open up that weather app. Oh, it knows it's cold hair. It's going to sell me a parka. Right.

And so what you're telling me here is well some of that I assume, Right. I open up that weather app. Oh, it knows it's cold hair. It's going to sell me a parka. Right.

It also knows that I'm cheap, so it's going to have to be a cheap parka.

It also knows that I'm cheap, so it's going to have to be a cheap parka.

Right.

Right.

These are what these phones do.

These are what these phones do.

If you talk about the government has decided, well, for get, we can use this too, Right, I'm I'm okay with Nike pouncing on me and selling me these shoes for my gout riddled feet. Perhaps I share too much they already know, Well, how is the government getting in on this action?

If you talk about the government has decided, well, for get, we can use this too, Right, I'm I'm okay with Nike pouncing on me and selling me these shoes for my gout riddled feet. Perhaps I share too much they already know, Well, how is the government getting in on this action?

Sure, So there's a lot of ways government gets data from things like digital advertisers. So sometimes they just buy it from these data brokers that sit there and they slurp it all up and they sell it. Sometimes government contractors set up things like things that look like marketing companies and they get access to these ad networks and they provide the data to the government. Sometimes governments, you know, hack into these systems. So there's lots and lots of ways for governments to get data off of these networks, and often they just simply need to open their wallets and buy it.

Sure, So there's a lot of ways government gets data from things like digital advertisers. So sometimes they just buy it from these data brokers that sit there and they slurp it all up and they sell it. Sometimes government contractors set up things like things that look like marketing companies and they get access to these ad networks and they provide the data to the government. Sometimes governments, you know, hack into these systems. So there's lots and lots of ways for governments to get data off of these networks, and often they just simply need to open their wallets and buy it.

This is this legal.

This is this legal.

This is by and large considered legal because when the government acts as a buyer in a consumer market, lawyers have tended to take the position that you've lost the reasonable expectation of privacy that's core to your Fourth Amendment rights. Right, Like, you've already told something like a digital advertiser or a bank or some other company something about yourself or the information that you're generating. So what privacy interest do you have in it? And if it's available for sale and the government's buying it just like any other buyer. Most lawyers have blessed these kind of programs.

This is by and large considered legal because when the government acts as a buyer in a consumer market, lawyers have tended to take the position that you've lost the reasonable expectation of privacy that's core to your Fourth Amendment rights. Right, Like, you've already told something like a digital advertiser or a bank or some other company something about yourself or the information that you're generating. So what privacy interest do you have in it? And if it's available for sale and the government's buying it just like any other buyer. Most lawyers have blessed these kind of programs.

You you go into the apps like Grinder, and initially, as I'm in the book, that's.

You you go into the apps like Grinder, and initially, as I'm in the book, that's.

No judgement, no judgment, no judgment.

No judgement, no judgment, no judgment.

In the book you talk about apps like right and how that data was suddenly being used for nefarious purposes. And you even talk about a Catholic blog essentially that purchase information on a bishop and then publishes that and outs that bishop against that bishop.

In the book you talk about apps like right and how that data was suddenly being used for nefarious purposes. And you even talk about a Catholic blog essentially that purchase information on a bishop and then publishes that and outs that bishop against that bishop.

Fire Right is that.

Fire Right is that.

Some of the like what are some of the examples of these this information being used for nefarious purposes.

Some of the like what are some of the examples of these this information being used for nefarious purposes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So with that Grinder example, it's not that Grinder is out there selling its user's data. It's that Grinder wants to serve ads to its users, like many other apps.

So with that Grinder example, it's not that Grinder is out there selling its user's data. It's that Grinder wants to serve ads to its users, like many other apps.

But when you.

But when you.

Serve ads, you are exposing all of your users to these thousands of advertisers, these entities that can collect this information, and again, some of them sell it and some of them sell it to people that they don't look very closely at. And so in this instance, there were a bunch of Catholic journalists who had received tips from people who had acquired this data through purchasing it, and they were going around and they were saying something like, you know, we have a lead on some priests that might be using Grinder and violating their vows. And one of those journalists bid it and publish a story about this, and this Catholic official had to resign. And this is true not just Grinder, but basically any app where we share our location and that wants to service banner advertising. We're sharing a ton of data with them, and whoever's out there and you know, has access to it, can buy it.

Serve ads, you are exposing all of your users to these thousands of advertisers, these entities that can collect this information, and again, some of them sell it and some of them sell it to people that they don't look very closely at. And so in this instance, there were a bunch of Catholic journalists who had received tips from people who had acquired this data through purchasing it, and they were going around and they were saying something like, you know, we have a lead on some priests that might be using Grinder and violating their vows. And one of those journalists bid it and publish a story about this, and this Catholic official had to resign. And this is true not just Grinder, but basically any app where we share our location and that wants to service banner advertising. We're sharing a ton of data with them, and whoever's out there and you know, has access to it, can buy it.

Now.

Now.

You mentioned something here at the end of the book talking about the recent Dobs decision. Right and right now, access to abortion services is limited in some states. People are crossing the state lines to get that. Is this the type of thing that you see as a harbinger for a tactic or a tool for states to purchase through advertisers, ways in which to track people potentially committing what they see as a crime.

You mentioned something here at the end of the book talking about the recent Dobs decision. Right and right now, access to abortion services is limited in some states. People are crossing the state lines to get that. Is this the type of thing that you see as a harbinger for a tactic or a tool for states to purchase through advertisers, ways in which to track people potentially committing what they see as a crime.

Yeah, it's certainly possible that state governments who have decided that they want to make abortion unlawful and want to even take the step of potentially, you know, seeing what residents travel out of state. The sheer amount of data that's slashing around about all of us all the time is a target for states like that, and it's entirely possible that states could either purchase data or you know, if they're going to go down the root of criminalizing traveling out of state for abortion, they could simply subpoena it or go to court for it. And so it really does make it hard to move around the world anonymously these days, just because of all the data that we all generate every day.

Yeah, it's certainly possible that state governments who have decided that they want to make abortion unlawful and want to even take the step of potentially, you know, seeing what residents travel out of state. The sheer amount of data that's slashing around about all of us all the time is a target for states like that, and it's entirely possible that states could either purchase data or you know, if they're going to go down the root of criminalizing traveling out of state for abortion, they could simply subpoena it or go to court for it. And so it really does make it hard to move around the world anonymously these days, just because of all the data that we all generate every day.

You talk about the privilege of disappearing, and you also talk I mean, I guess I hear this, and I understand it, and it scares me. But I also, on the other hand, think like can we avoid this? Is this sort of the world we are in right now? As a journalist, as an investigative journalist, there's an element of secrecy, at least assumed with some of the conversations you have or what have you. In the book you talk about you even went to go purchase a car, and somebody who's researching a book about the ways in which people can weaponize data on you purchasing a car that you already see ways in which that ties you to location. How do you go about a process of purchasing that and be an investigative journalist who cares about secretcy.

You talk about the privilege of disappearing, and you also talk I mean, I guess I hear this, and I understand it, and it scares me. But I also, on the other hand, think like can we avoid this? Is this sort of the world we are in right now? As a journalist, as an investigative journalist, there's an element of secrecy, at least assumed with some of the conversations you have or what have you. In the book you talk about you even went to go purchase a car, and somebody who's researching a book about the ways in which people can weaponize data on you purchasing a car that you already see ways in which that ties you to location. How do you go about a process of purchasing that and be an investigative journalist who cares about secretcy.

Well, the poor Hyundai dealership that I walked into, I had no idea what they were getting.

Well, the poor Hyundai dealership that I walked into, I had no idea what they were getting.

Into another investigative is a data brokerage.

Into another investigative is a data brokerage.

Goddamn it.

Goddamn it.

They didn't even know how to answer the questions I was asking, So, you know, I eventually made them go get a car from like two states over that didn't even have the little cell chip that can transmit the data.

They didn't even know how to answer the questions I was asking, So, you know, I eventually made them go get a car from like two states over that didn't even have the little cell chip that can transmit the data.

Because so because you walk in there, I just think it's a car. It's a car, But you're talking about. There's cell chips essentially like the bluetooth that's in the car and also in the tires.

Because so because you walk in there, I just think it's a car. It's a car, But you're talking about. There's cell chips essentially like the bluetooth that's in the car and also in the tires.

Right, So one thing people don't realize, but your tires actually are broadcasting a little radio signal constantly, and it's meant it's there to tell the car central computer that your tire pressure is low. Perfectly reasonable safety mechanism. But clever governments have figured out, hey, a tire is a proxy for a car. That tire is screaming a unique identifier all the time. We put a little sensor here, a little sensor there, a little sensor under a bridge, a little sensor in a tunnel. We can track cars around based on their car tires. And car companies don't seem to realize that this is vector for tracking and have never done anything to you know, make these vehicles or make these systems work better for privacy.

Right, So one thing people don't realize, but your tires actually are broadcasting a little radio signal constantly, and it's meant it's there to tell the car central computer that your tire pressure is low. Perfectly reasonable safety mechanism. But clever governments have figured out, hey, a tire is a proxy for a car. That tire is screaming a unique identifier all the time. We put a little sensor here, a little sensor there, a little sensor under a bridge, a little sensor in a tunnel. We can track cars around based on their car tires. And car companies don't seem to realize that this is vector for tracking and have never done anything to you know, make these vehicles or make these systems work better for privacy.

And they can sell that information to insurance companies. Yeah, so a lot.

And they can sell that information to insurance companies. Yeah, so a lot.

There's a big controversy now about selling car data to insurance companies. So car companies like GM, we're doing that and they recently said they were stopping selling it to data brokers, that we're selling it to insurance companies for public safety purposes. It seems like governments are putting up these little sensors that might be able to track either your license plate reader or your car hires or both, or all sorts of other things that I don't even know about.

There's a big controversy now about selling car data to insurance companies. So car companies like GM, we're doing that and they recently said they were stopping selling it to data brokers, that we're selling it to insurance companies for public safety purposes. It seems like governments are putting up these little sensors that might be able to track either your license plate reader or your car hires or both, or all sorts of other things that I don't even know about.

Yes, but yes, this is entirely possible.

Yes, but yes, this is entirely possible.

So you have to take extra steps as an investigative journalist to keep this anonymity.

So you have to take extra steps as an investigative journalist to keep this anonymity.

Yeah, and there are things that ordinary people can do, right. You can be a little bit more careful with the permissions on your phone. You know, not every game needs access to your twenty four to seven location, your photo role, and all this data about you, right, Like, it'll work just fine without it. You know, every time you open the Uber app, you don't need to let it have your geolocation to type the address this you're at. You know, so you can do small things to reclaim privacy and make sure that you know, parties that don't need your data don't get it.

Yeah, and there are things that ordinary people can do, right. You can be a little bit more careful with the permissions on your phone. You know, not every game needs access to your twenty four to seven location, your photo role, and all this data about you, right, Like, it'll work just fine without it. You know, every time you open the Uber app, you don't need to let it have your geolocation to type the address this you're at. You know, so you can do small things to reclaim privacy and make sure that you know, parties that don't need your data don't get it.

Now. As I read this, I thought about this about secrecy, about ways in which you can take small steps, and then I saw your acknowledgments, And in your acknowledgments, you were very grateful to.

Now. As I read this, I thought about this about secrecy, about ways in which you can take small steps, and then I saw your acknowledgments, And in your acknowledgments, you were very grateful to.

People who help you write this book. You said.

People who help you write this book. You said.

The first words of this book were written on an Amtrak train between DC and New York. A full chapter outline was completed at a rented farmhouse in Risers Down, Maryland, in January twenty twenty two. The final few weeks of writing this first draft were spent in New York City at the Work Heights on Franklin Avenue.

The first words of this book were written on an Amtrak train between DC and New York. A full chapter outline was completed at a rented farmhouse in Risers Down, Maryland, in January twenty twenty two. The final few weeks of writing this first draft were spent in New York City at the Work Heights on Franklin Avenue.

This is remarkably specific for some money, so I was worried about location. Coremany perfect, nobody's perfect. Well, it's a good rate. It's scared the be Jesus out of me. I appreciate it.

This is remarkably specific for some money, so I was worried about location. Coremany perfect, nobody's perfect. Well, it's a good rate. It's scared the be Jesus out of me. I appreciate it.

Means of Control is available now by rental.

Means of Control is available now by rental.

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