The Daily Show: Ears EditionAddressing Disinformation in the 2024 Election
Michael Kosta sits with University of Michigan Law School Professor Barbara McQuad to discuss the difference between misinformation and disinformation and her latest book, Attack From Within: How Disinformation is Sabotaging America.
You're listening to Comedy Central.
Hey, there's NOI Chang. The Daily Show is off this week, but don't worry. We put together some of our favorite moments from the show in case you miss them. We'll be back with brand new shows on September tenth. Until then, enjoyed today's episode.
Welcome back to The Daily Show.
My guest tonight is the University of Michigan Law School professor, former US attorney, and author of the New York Times bestseller Attack from Within How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America?
Please welcome Barbara McQuaid.
Ye nice, Look at this. Look at that.
There's a fist on the cover coming out of the center of America. And I'm like, is that where the attack is coming from? Is it Nebraska right there?
Yeah?
No, but it is a white, right handed fist. That's where the attack is coming from.
Well, you know where are we in the disinformation in America? What does that mean? What is misinformation? What is disinformation?
Yeah?
Well, disinformation is the deliberate use of lies to manipulate people in advance an agenda. Misinformation is kind of its unwitting cousin. We hear something, we think it's true, but it's a lie, and we amplify the claim exponentially.
Disinformation is done on purpose.
Yeah, misinformation is a family member Facebook scrolling repeating something they saw exactly from within?
Is this the problem in America now? Is it coming from within?
As you say in the book, Is the call coming from within the house?
Yeah? I think it is.
You know, I spent my career as a federal prosecutor prosecuting national security cases. I teach a course on national security law at Michigan Law School. And historically we have thought about information warfare and propaganda is coming from outside our boards, from hostile foreign adversaries. But now we are seeing it, I think as a political tactic within our own country. So these attacks that we hear about Kamala Harris being a DEI higher, or that you know she recently happened to become black, these are deliberate efforts to stoke division in society.
What are some of the other tactics, because man, as consumer of news and media, I should know what these are.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And there is you know a list of some of the tactics in the book. But you know, one of them is this idea of declinism. Society is going downhill. Everything's awful, cities in ruins, American.
Carnage sound like a Trump speech.
These are some of the same tactics that Hitler talked about in mind komf and used in Nazi Germany in the nineteen thirties. And in fact, if you look at the data, you know crime rates are down, the economy is up, all of the indicators are actually on the upswing. And yet if we can talk about the society as being down, then it allows us to say, well, these extreme times call for extreme measures, and people believe these things. It allows scapegoating of other people in society and demonization of others.
One thing that really resonated to me is tribe over truth.
Explain that more to me.
Yeah, So, one of the things we've seen in our deeply polarized times is that people identify with their political tribe, their team. It's almost like, you know, Michigan versus Ohio State. We care about being loyal to the team.
One of those teams is legit. Well that's true, we know that.
But if it all becomes just a sport.
What I just said it was a joke, But then I realized I probably just perpetuated this thing you're talking.
About, But loyalty to the team becomes more important than truth, and that just doesn't work in a democracy. We will never resolve anything if all we care about is advancing our team winning, dunking on our opponents. And that's what politics has become, this idea that I'm going to go along with the on even if I believe that it's not true. So you know, stop the steal.
Long prop the steel.
One thing that really resonated with me was, and it didn't I didn't think about it, was the use of nostalgia.
Man, I'm a sucker for that. Sure, you know me too.
Yeah, And you say in here, if you've ever seen a car commercial or I like, you know, the fonts, I always find myself gravitating doors, a font that reminds me of a simpler time in my life. Are authoritarian politicians using nostalgia this way?
Absolutely?
Because all of us love that, right, I mean, good basis, baseball, hot dogs, apple pie.
Right.
You know, for me, when I think about nostalgia my childhood, I think about the happy times.
It was nineteen sixty eight, right.
War was raging in Vietnam. We had assassinations of our leaders. But in my little world, everything was wonderful. So when I see you know, a backyard barbecue with you know, families in their Bermuda shorts, that all makes me feel happy and warm and safe. And so yes, utilizing nostalgia as a way to bring you in and say we're the party that's going to make you safe because we're preying on your fear and so if we can bring you back to that idea of tradition and nostalgia, we can make you feel safe.
We talk about Trump in here, but is it just one side that's doing this?
Is it everybody? Is it both sides?
I don't like to both sides.
When it is one, I would say that it is a tactic that can be used by anybody. And so that's why I really wanted to write this book and raise awareness of these tactics so that people can see it regardless of who's pushing it. But at this moment in history, I do believe that it is the far right branch of the Republican Party that is most responsible for trafficking in lies.
Yeah, yeah, what what can we do in a bigger sense? And what can I do? Michael let's start with the bigger sense. What can we do as a country.
Yeah, I think there are number of things we can do in terms of reforms. So social media certainly is a place where lots of disinformation is spewed. We have power like we've never had before, and I think there are regulations that we can take that could help stem the tide. Sometimes when I say that, I hear you want to censor America. You hate the First Amendment, And the answer is no. I'm a big advocate for the First Amendment and free speech. But I think if we look at process over content, we can find ways to have some common sense reforms. So, for example, the algorithms that are deliberately designed to stoke outrage because that keeps us online and that sells more ads, and that's more money for the platforms. I think if we could control the way our private data is taken so that we can be micro targeted, that is something that we could regulate.
I mean, disinformation is pretty profitable, no, I mean, you know a podcast about conspiracy theories. A lot of people listen to, you know, podcasts like mine, the Tennis Anyone podcast with Michael Costa talk some more about life and tennis.
There's not really a question there, Barbara. That was just meant to.
But when I okay, this weekend, I've grabbed my phone talking about social media. The first thing I see was trans boxer makes her opponent defaults, and I go, holy shit, that's a crazy headline. And then you kind of and I come to work on Monday and you start unpacking and it's like, that's not at all what this was.
So what can we do? You know?
That's I think I have my head on straight. I think I can figure out a fact from fiction. But that's it's very deceiving. What can you do at home, if you're watching with your family, if your kids are there, how can we teach them to decipher this stuff?
Yeah, and you know, this is the kind of lie that I think is difficult to stop. Because of our First Amendment, people have a right to say things even that aren't true. I think one of the things we can do is improve our own media literacy. So as a country, we could teach it in schools, can teach it to adults, ce civic organizations. But there are some best practices that we can do to help us build resilience against that kind of false claim. And the reason people use that is, of course, people who want to divide us, people who traffic and disinformation, exploit an opportunity. They say, oh, here's a chance to really stick it to the LGBTQ community. Right, So I'm going to really stoke this and get people all amped up. But there are things we can do. One is reading with a critical I you know, not just the tweet that someone with. You know, they usually have a handle like you know, Patriot girl, right or something like that. Probably not a real person, probably a Russian, you know, sitting in a boiler room somewhere who just says, you know, I hate it when men beat up on girls or something like that. Find some credible news outlets like The Daily Show or some learn about the background. What is the basis for people saying that this is not a woman, And in fact you will read that she was born a woman, she grew up a woman, she has always competed as a woman, she has never once claimed to be tried to be in any way as a man. And so these claims are really made out of whole cloth. And so I think that if we educate ourselves in that way by doing a little bit of homework. Skeptical exactly, and be a critical thinker. Just don't accept at face value what you.
Read the.
Yeah you clap, you clap, but you better do it. You better do it.
You better not sit on the kitchen table. I'm I all scroll on Facebook and just repeating everything you say.
We better all do it.
The First Amendment is this amazing special amendment that we have, the two hundred and sixty years ago the forefathers wrote down. But man, has it got us in a world of shit?
Sometimes? Huh?
Is there a way to reframe it so we think about it differently? Are you allowed to say whatever you want whenever you want?
What I mean?
I just I found it so interesting when you talked in here about how America is particularly susceptible to disinformation.
Explain that against me.
Yeah, well, it is because of our cherished First Amendment rights, and I think everybody does cherish it, whether you're on the right or the left. It is the First Amendment that allows us to speak out against our government. But I think sometimes people use that as license to say everything they want to say. And just because you can doesn't mean you should. It is also the case that like all other amendments, like the Second Amendment and every other right we have in the Constitution. It is not unlimited. The Supreme Court has said the Bill of Rights is not a suicide packed and we can't have reasonable limitations on things. You know, there's a doctrine called strict scrutiny that says limitations are permissible if there's a compelling governmental reason and the limitation is narrowly tailored to achieve that interest. So, for example, you can't threaten to kill somebody online. It turns out that's frowned upon crime.
Good, you can't got that one, right.
You can't commit perjury, right, that's free speech, but you can't say that. You can't yell fire in a crowded daily shows.
Don't do that. Now, we'll try it. Don't do that.
So there are some limitations, but I really think that the best response to bad speech is more speech or better speech and labeling of speech. You know, one of the things I'm most concerned about that's coming down the pike is AI generated this information.
You know, there's this ad going around now.
Yeah, ad going around now with you know, Kamala Harris in her own voice saying things disparaging to herself, and so how do we combat that. You know, people can create it, people create satire and that. But I think labeling is a way for us. You know, more speech is the response. Labeling so people know that the ad was generated with AI or it's something satire or party. I think is the best way to address that because I wouldn't want to do anything that cuts back on our First Amendment rights.
When you read the book, so much of what I was reading was going, oh my god, yeah now that makes sense. Oh yeah, that speech makes sense.
Oh yeah. So it's very helpful.
And I say every three to four years, Americans should have to get some media literacy license and this can be some required reading.
I mean, you need a license to drive, and then.
If you get in an accident, you might have to get your license again. So we should get a license to free speech. And I'm just spitballing here, and then if you have a speech accident, you shift to all right, thank you for writing this book.
It's a great book.
Attack Them Within is available now or check out our podcast hashtag Sisters in Law.
Barbara McClay explore more shows from.
The Daily Show podcast Universe by searching The Daily Show wherever you get your podcasts. Watch The Daily Show week nights at eleven ten Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount
Plus Paramount Podcasts
