Joining SI's Chris Mannix this week is former Suns GM Ryan McDonough. Mannix and McDonough dive into Phoenix's future, how GM's will be impacted by virtual draft prep and a little insight into McDonough;s decision to draft DeAndre Ayton in 2018. Plus are Miilwaukee and the Lakers in any real trouble? Later, actor Jake Johnson on his new animated Netflix show HOOPS, being a Bulls -- and Tom Thibodeau fan -- possible NBA cameos for his show, and more.
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They are Sports Illustrated. This incredible body of horse. I really appreciate the integrity. Everything you do is do a great job. We love it. Thank He's Chris Mannix. He's employed by Sports Illustrated. The announcer's got it inform me. This is the Crossover NBA podcast. You have a problem with it, build a team that can beat them. Hosted by the one and over. Thank god Chris Mannix. All right, welcome back Crossover podcast inside the NBA Bubble. Still we are on week I don't even know what week we're on here in the bubble. All these days just seemed to blend together. But we are into the first week of the playoffs. I know that, and already some interesting developments. You've got the Bucks losing their first game against Orlando, the Blazers top the Lakers and their opener. I want to get into all that, plus some off season uh maneuvers going on there the Sacramento Kings. They part ways with Vlade divach tylu still a lot of chatter around tie for his next job. Ryan McDonough, the former GM of the Phoenix Suns. He joins me to break down all that and much more. A little bit later on, we take a little bit of a turn Jake Johnson, the actor. You know him from shows like The New Girl. He's been in Jurassic World. He has a new show out on Netflix and animated show called Hoops. It's a basketball centric show about a high school basketball coach in Kentucky. I talked to Jake about his experiences with sports, his time during the pandemic, and what NBA players he might like to see have cameos on this show, this animated show, which starts on Netflix on August one. So stick around for that good conversation with the actor Jake Johnson. Quick housekeeping note. If you like this podcast, please one easy way you can support it head over to Apple Podcast also known as iTunes. Post a comment, leave a rating. It's simple, it's easy, it's free. It's the best way to make sure that we keep doing this podcast week after week. That's it, all right, onto my conversation with Ryan mcdonnaugh. Alright. Ryan mcdonnaugh is here, the former GM of the Phoenix Suns. He has made a sharp turn into the media world as the co host of Scalon Pals, which you can hear on Radio dot Com live shows at noon Eastern time every single weekday. Ryan, what's up man, Welcome to the show. Chris is great to be with you, although I will disagree with the words sharp. I don't know if my turn with Sharp it certainly was a turn. Maybe it was a veer into the media world from the front office, but scal and I have a lot of fun doing the shows. You want to call it more of like an obtuse turn around, as I got the car in New England that slides off an icy rolled road and has to find their way back, And I think that's probably the most appropriate analogy. Hey, that was my car in New England. Did that several times over in my my heyday. UM. Glad to talk to you though, Um, And before I get into anything else, you know that has to do with with the Bubble in what we saw, you know in the games early this week. But the Phoenix Suns, your former team, not a part of these playoffs, but they did everything possible to to get here. Phoenix win eight no in the restart Devin Booker, he averaged thirty points a game. Monty Williams, he wins coach of the Bubble. For whatever that's worth. I don't know what kind of prize that comes with um. What did you think of what you saw from your former team and the direction that they're heading right now. Well, I think as a former employee or as a Sons fan I still live here in Arizona, you have to be excited about the future of the team. They look like a different team after the restart. They made some really good adjustments with the roster, bringing in a guy like Cameron Paine who had a big impact off the bench. But what stood up to me was the individual improvement of their top players, led by Devin Booker, who I think was good enough Chris to win m v P of the Bubble again for whatever that's worth. But if Damian Lillard didn't do a superhero thing and carry the Blazers to the playoffs, I think Booker would have been the n B n B was on the first team all Bubble. And then the development of a guy like mckel ridges, whom you know is a three and D guy that was kind of his role prior to the pandemic shutting down the league in March. I thought his offensive improvement, in particular his his playmaking, his ability to make shots off the dribble really stood out to me, and so they just had a clicking on all cylinders. Unfortunately for the Suns, they dug themselves too big of a hole, Chris. They came into this thing, as you know, at twenty six and thirty nine, and they were slotted thirteenth in the Western Conference. So when you looked at it on paper and logically looking at the standings, it seemed impossible that the Suns would even be in the mix for the play scenario between the eight nine seeds in the Western Conference. But sure enough they were rolled. They were eight no and they were right there. And I think it was really disappointing for Suns fans, but also FRIENDBA fans in general in general. Given the way that Phoenix looked and given the way that Memphis look when they were struggling, I think it would have been a hecking, the heck of a play in series if the Phoenix Suns were able to get in there and play against the Portland Trailblazers over the past weekend. Yeah, I would have liked to have seen that as well. I mean, Memphis at full strength would have been great, but the Grizzlies were down just Winslow, Jarren Jackson. They just weren't the same team, uh that we saw during the season. You know, I learned something about the Sun's over the last couple of weeks. I mean, I wasn't a huge Devin Booker guy coming into all this. Um I looked at him frankly as a lot of empty glories in a lot of ways. And maybe that's uh, superficial on my part, you know, not paying close enough attention to what was going on in Phoenix. But you know, they weren't in contention the last couple of years, and uh, it was hard to to really get a beat on whether this guy was a real winner or not. But you know, he showed in this bubble to a lot of people that he was a winner and that he can be kind of a cornerstone player on franchise team. And I I spoke to you, you know, I wrote about him a week or so ago, and you know, what's what's been revealed to me. It was just the kind of the competitiveness of Devin Booker, the the the inner fire that that get that has him. And you saw this, you know, very early on, right even going back to the draft process. Yeah, absolutely I mean watching Devon at Kentucky in the pre draft process, Chris. That was the loaded Kentucky team that went to the Final four undefeated. They lost to Wisconsin in the semifinal, but they had talent NBA talent up and down that roster with Carl Anthony Towns, Trey Lyles, the Harrison Twins, Tyler ulis Uh and others in addition to Devin Booker. So Devin came off the bench for that team. Chris, he was a spot up shooter. Um. That was his role, and that's you know what was a scouting report on Devon And then once we got him into our gym and Phoenix for the pre draft workouts, he was super competitive. Once the one on one, two on two, three on three competitive action started, Chris Um, he he just took off and dominated. In fact, we had a drill where it was one on one and basically the offensive player rotates off once the defender stops him, and nobody could stop Devon and he was scoring enough and consistently time after time. Where as a staff organizationally we were gonna stop the drill and move on just for time constraints to the next one. He said, no, no no, no, these guys haven't stopped me. They can't stop me. We're staying out here until they stopped me. And Chris, anybody has been in that environment, even played pick up one on one knows how hard it is to score consecutively without missing or turning the ball over once. And uh, you know, I guess Booker scored on whoever was guarding him ten or twelve times in a row before the defense finally got a stop. You know it. You know, NBA teams are defined by who they draft and in part by who they don't it. After reporting that story, it just amazed me that Miami passed on him, considering how many people in and around Miami seemed to be really high on him, including Eric Spoilstroy spoke to on the record for that story. I mean, Justice Winslow, good player, but what would that team have been if they had drafted Devin book right, It's also shocking that pat Riley, former Kentucky Wildcat, passes on a eventual star that is a former as a Kentucky Wildcat. That part of it, Ryan was was shocking as well. Well. The drafts and in exact science, Chris, you Devin didn't do the things in Kentucky. It wasn't allowed to do the things in Kentucky with the depth and telling that roster that he's now doing on an NBA court for of Phoenix Sun. So a lot of it is that, A lot of it is situation and opportunity. The Heat drafted Justice Winslow that year has had, you know, a good career, solid career. Certainly hasn't achieved what what Devon has to this point, but he had a bigger role at Duke. Duke was a more prominent team that won the national title with Justice as a freshman. Justice had the ball in his hands a lot more to make plays than Devon, and Justice was a guy really liked in that draft as well. So sometimes you know, guys are better than anticipated, sometimes they're worse. You try to get it right more than you get it wrong. But certainly, you know, I'm happy about the way it turned out, as our sons fans, because I think Devin Booker one of the best offensive players, maybe the best players period in the NBA over the next five or ten years. I think Heat fans though, are looking at that saying, man, we had Dwayne Wade back then. We could just transition from Dwyane Wade to Devin Booker. Have you know potentially all time grade shooting guards for thirty plus years at at that position. Um, you know with with Phoenix, you know what you have in Devin Booker. Monty Williams is an excellent coach. Uh. The question I think is going to beat for them moving forward? What is the ceiling of DeAndre eight And I go back and forth on him Ryan when I watch him play, I mean, he obviously has incredible physical skills. He obviously, uh is going to be a guy that can step out and make perimeter shots and maybe be a stretch five at some point down the line. But there are sometimes I watch him and I see a guy that isn't as aggressive as he needs to be finishing, kind of lays a lot of balls up. But I'm looking at him, going, man, just dunk it your your seven foot whatever, you know, just dunk on people. And his hands aren't great. Sometimes he fumbles a lot of balls around the rim. When you look at where DeAndre eton is now, is he where you thought he would be when you drafted him back in two thousand and eighteen? And what do you think the ceiling is for him, having watched him his first couple of years. Yeah, I think Deandre's biggest strides this year Chris, especially after the restart in in Orlando. We're on the defensive end. I thought he really made a big jump defensively as a rookie. I keep in mind, I got fired before he ever played an NBA game in the twenteen preseason, but just watching the team as a rookie, I thought his defensive angles weren't very good. I thought he got turned around a lot and didn't really know the personnel. That's not unusual for a rookie, especially a rookie Big Chris in the NBA to um, you know, get out of position against some of the elite offensive players in the league. And then I thought he really made a leap this year. You're you're too. If you look at his defensive numbers. With the rim protection, I thought he was very good at the rim. He's one of the better room protectors in the league. And he's also the kind of guy that his teams go to more switching. Defensively, he can sit down and guard perimitive players. I think whenever the Sons have played Milwaukee Bucks. He's done as good a job as anybody I've seen on honest. There aren't many guys physically, as you know, who can compete with the honest and DeAndre can do that. Um, so those are the good strides, Chris. I agree with what you said offensively. I think there are times where he does need to be more aggressive as far as not only finishing around the basket with power, but getting to the free throw line. I think that's the next step for him, Chris. Um. And look, it's a blessing and a curse that the guy seven one. He's strong as anything, and he's also really skilled. But but I think, but how's he is so skilled? Sometimes, Chris, he'll settle for a turnaround, He'll settle for a fade away where the next step for him is just face the guy up rip and go to the basket, and with his size and speed and power, the opponents are either gonna have to follow him and put him on the free throw line or just let him go for an uncontested dunk. Yeah, there are a couple of times and a couple of games that I saw that you know, he's right around the rim, and I'm just like throw it through somebody like you're a big dude, I go in there and just bang on somebody. And he kind of laid it up and missed a couple of shots and played a little too much finesse. But maybe that'll come, you know, as a young guy. It will come in the UH in the subsequent years. You know. With Aton, as you mentioned, you never got to see him play UH in his first full season. To take me back to your draft night there, I mean, Atan at the time was a huge star coming out of Arizona. Um, what was the argument you had that you made for DeAndre Ayton there? Because, as you mentioned in Exact Science, we see Luca taking off becoming a superstar. What was the argument for you with Luke with Aton over anybody else including Luca. Well, that's a good question, Chris. There's a lot there that you know, I probably won't get into all of it specifically. UM, what I would say it was, it was somewhat of a tumultuous time in Phoenix, as the last decade has tended to be with the Suns. We had another coaching change. We brought in Igor Kokoshkoff. Earl Watson had got fired this season before and then we moved on from J Triano. The interim head coach, James Jones was added alongside me in the front office. So, um, it was a Again, it was an unstable environment. And I bring that up as somebody who spent ten plus years in the Celtics front office. It was you know, are one of the more stable franchises. So uh. And I say that not in any way to pick on the Phoenix Suns. Obviously grateful for the five plus years I had there and the opportunity and all that, um. But that being said, Chris, the organizations that have stability, I think have a more sound process. And that sound process involves probably more thorough evaluation, UM, more heated and robust discussion, and also more of a history and a track record UM with not only the evaluators but the coaches and people like that as well. So everybody's in the same page and knows what they're looking for. So as I look back on the teen draft, and I again I think Eightan is gonna be a really good player, although Luca looks like he has a chance to be a transcendent player. UM. As I look back on it, um, the results you know, are what they are. They'll be judged over time. Um, but I think our process could have been better as far as Luca's evaluation. In particular, he was still playing in in Spain and eighteen in the playoffs, which made it difficult. I was not able to go see him play that late that year in May and June. Had I gone to see him play, he dominated the playoffs in the early league final four. Um, you know, would we have arrived at a different conclusion keeping in mind that I did not have, you know, ultimate autonomy to make basketball decisions there, I don't know. But again, I don't want this to see him as a in any way, shape or form disrespectful to DeAndre eight because I think the kid is gonna be a terrific two way player, although Luca looks like he's gonna be a superstar as well. Yeah, it's almost a curse. I mean, Aden could wind up being a ten time All Star, you know, but when you're compared to a guy like Luca Dodging, maybe the next Dirk Tovitzky, the next transcendent international player, Uh, it's always tough. Um. All right, let's move on to what we saw this week in the bubble, specifically with the top teams, who both go down in their uh their first games. Milwaukee drops a game to Orlando, which is officially the greatest eight seed or greatest game one team in NBA history, and the Lakers they lose to to Portland's and their opener with Milwaukee. The Bucks defense continues to be an ongoing issue. Before this pandemic hit, they were a historically good defense. I mean, they had such a wide gap between themselves and the other team statistically that you looked at them as maybe being an all time great defensive team. Since they came into the bubble in the eight seeding games, their defensive rating has jumped by ten points. That's a huge number and put them kind of right in the middle of the pack. You know, maybe you think, all right, they're going through the motions, they don't have anything to play for in the seeding games. But then you fast forward to game one on Monday night and see Orlando shooting from three. You see the magic with no Aaron Gordon down Jonathan Isaac shooting close to from the floor. That defense Ryan once again wasn't very good. I mean, how concerned should we be about Milwaukee not just in this series, but with everything moving forward. I think we should be concerned, Chris. And here's why. They had a historically good defense. If you look at the gap from the Blocks, who were the number one rated defensive team, to the rest of the pack, it was very significant. They had a big lead. They were by far the best defense in the NBA prior to the pandemic shutting down the season on March eleventh, and now we have a nine game sample size in Orlando. I agree with what you said. I think it was easy through the eight seeding games to say, well, the Bucks already have the number one seed locked in. They're not playing for a whole lot at this point. They'll turn it on when the playoffs start, and they certainly did not turn it on in Game one against a depleted Orlando Magic team playing without Jonathan Isaac and Aaron Gordon and some of their best players. Um So, I think it's concerning. One thing that I'm really interested to keep an eye on is the Bucks defensive strategy is unique. And what I mean by that is they fully protect the rim and the basket basically at all costs. Um So, what that means is they can seed a lot of open threes. In fact, I think their opponents were on pace again for the second year in a row to set an NBA record for most three pointers made against the defense. Milwaukee had the record with most three pointers made against them on the Great Team last year, and their opponents, if if a t two games were played this year, I think would have broken that record. So when you watch him play, they suck in, they protect the rim. They have three great rim protectors in Janice Brook, Lopez and Robin Lopez. But that means they give up a lot of open shots. Chris, and so I'm just curious to see, you know, did they stick with that if Orlando or especially if they get past Orlando and play a better opponent in the second round, like Miami or Indiana. I like Miami coming out of that series. Um, do they still play that way? Do they sell out to protect the basket at all costs? Because that that means they give up a lot of open threes, which means if a team is hot shooting shooting the ball well in a game or in a series, the Bucks defense looks pretty vulnerable. Yeah, it's and you know, hearing Mike Budenholzer talk about aggressiveness, like that's something you can control, right, Like, I mean you you need to be aggressive in these type situations. He's been saying that kind of over and over again over the last six seven games. It doesn't seem like that that message is resonating when you hear a coach say something like that, we we need to be more aggressive. Is that just coach speak to you or is that implying something specific out there on the floor. I think it's implying that they weren't physical enough, Chris, that they didn't play tough enough in Game one, which is what I saw as well. I thought Orlando was the more aggressive team. I think if you look at offensive execution in particular, the Magic ran their stuff and ran their sets a lot better than than Milwaukee did with with a much less talented roster. So be interesting to see what happens in Game two. UM One thing to keep an eye and Chris, I think, and I look at this from a fifteen plus year executive perspective, is I think there is a lot of pressure on the Bucks franchise in the short term. As you know, Janice is eligible for the Super Max contract extend this offseason. That was projected to be five years and two million. It would be the biggest contract in NBA history. Um, But with the pandemic, with revenues going down in the NBA, I think it's less likely that he signs that. And I think it's a lot less likely that he signs that if the Bucks continue to struggle and he doesn't think he can win big in Milwaukee. So I'll be interested to see that. I mean, we look at the games on the floor, but as a former executive, you also look at the big picture, and I think that's why the Bucks organizationally are starting to feel some pressure and will continue to feel pressure if your honest and the team doesn't start playing a lot better. Do you look at Janice as being too big to trade? I mean, even if he turns down the contract extension, is he just too big a superstar to move off of? Do you have to roll the dice and believe that in another year you can win a championship and convinced him to stay or whatever? Or I mean, if you're John Horst, do you have to test the market if he turns that extension down. Logically, you probably should test the market. Chris, if Johanna says, look, I'm not going to stay. Realistically, as a guy who sat in that seat or contributed to front offices with the Celtics for ten plus years and the Suns for five plus, I don't know how you do that with a player of that caliber, especially in a smaller market like Milwaukee. We look at Cleveland with Lebron James when Lebron was there. That's what people said about the Calves, that the Calves should do. But the reality of it is this, Chris, if you're an owner or a head coach or an executive, you said, look, we could draft for years, we could be doing this for decades, and there's a chance, probably a good chance, that we don't get one guy who's even nearly as good as this guy we have now who's probably gonna win his second consecutive m v P and is in his prime and it's good enough clearly to be the best player on a championship team. Um. So you know, rationally it makes sense, Chris, But as far as reality, would you actually do that With John Horst and the Buck's ownership pulled the trigger on trading, be honest, my guess is they would not. I think what's more likely Chris as they say, look, you honest, I know how you're feeling. And this is assuming obviously says that he's not going to to resign or that he wants to leave. I know how you feel today. We had a disappointing season, however, where you're gonna do everything we can, including spending into the luxury tax, including trading young players and draft picks, to load up this team next year. Stick with us and let us convince you to resign here even though you're unrestricted free agent in the summer of one. We're gonna do everything we can to convince you to stay in Milwaukee Bucks uniform. Yeah, we will sign your other brother too. We will have both at the combo brothers on the roster for next year or whatever. You got a sister you want him to play List Anny one. We'll put them a hall out there on the roster. All right, let's talk about the Lakers and the Blazers. And it goes without saying Portland's not a traditional eight seed like that is a Western Conference finalist masquerading as an eight seed in the playoffs because of a whole bunch of circumstances. The pandemic injuries, all those things that came into effect, and they look great in that game one. Ryan making shots, uh, with Damian Lillard playing terrific. CJ McCollum not a great shooting night, but he came on for them at the end. Carmelo made a big three, Gary Trent made a big three. Uh. Nurkic is playing really well and even a Sun white Side, I mean, just a terrific game one for Whiteside. Meanwhile, the Lakers, and we talked about trends with Milwaukee. The Lakers trend has been poor shooting and this has been ongoing throughout the seating games where Danny Green has struggled. Cantavious called will Pope is strong. Really everybody outside of Kyle Kuzma in that rotation has struggled with the three point shot. They just cratered in that game one, shooting about fift from three point range. How big it is concerned to you is the Lakers shooting here? Because they shot poorly, and they shot poorly on a lot of open looks. I mean, Lebron and Frank Vogel said this after the game. We got good looks, they just weren't knocking them down. And how concerned should the Lakers be right now about where they stand in this series. I think they should be concerned, Chris, not only with where they stand in the series down oh one at the moment, but how the team has looked since they arrived in Orlando. Um, they've had one of the worst offenses in the bubble of the twenty two teams playing in Orlando, and a lot of those teams, as you know, six of them are now home. Lakers have been worse than some of the teams who are eliminated. And then I look at their personnel and I think, I don't think I know, Chris. They have to win the front court battle, especially against a team like Portland's, because Portland's guards, with Damian Lillard and CJ. McCollum, and with the way Gary Trent Jr. Is playing, they're better than whatever the Lakers have, So they have to win that front court battle. Now that being said, nurk Its just played a great role for the Blazers and then with the Lakers, Chris, the most concerning thing to me is, I don't think they have the personnel to play a different style, to play differently, and what I saw in the game the other night on Tuesday night, the game between Portland and the Lakers, is that there's so many big bodies on the court. There's not a lot of open space for Lebron. And if the shooters aren't, you know, holding the corners and holding the winds and knocking down shots for Lebron, then the paint is very crowded. Because you look at the starters for the Lakers, they start Anthony Davis at the four, in Javel McGee at the five. H Davis isn't a great floor spacer. McGee is not at all four space or he's around the rim guy. But then even when they go to the bench Chris, they come in with Mark Keith Morris at the four, who's not a floor spacer, and Dwight Howard, who you know, can't make a shout outside the restricted area. So I bring that up because without Avery Bradley, and at least in the short term, without Region Rondo, I don't know where the Lakers go for answers. And and to make my final point, here is the two teams I like the best, the two teams I picked prior to the playoffs. Starting in the restart to make the finals are the l A Clippers in the West and the Toronto Raptors in the East. And the reason for that, Chris, is those teams have multiple ball handlers, multiple playmakers, and I think what you're seeing with the two teams we just discussed with the Honest and Milwaukee and now with Lebron in l A. It's hard for one guy to do it all against good defenses, against teams that are locked in on him. And the way you know that formula works, the only way it works is if the shooters make shots, and they certainly did not do that for the Lakers in Game one. Yeah, and I think people have been underestimating the value of Avery Bradley, you know, throughout the entire season. I mean, I know you know everything about Bradley, you were involved in the draft process with him, um, But when they signed him, people were like, oh, it's just Avery Bradley, like, no, Avery Bradleys like and yeah, he played like crap with the Clippers, but this is still a guy that will make shot for you and be a good on ball defender. And then he did that all season long. And I think there were a lot of people that when Bradley opted out. They were like, all right, we can replace him. We've got Lebron and a d Well. You see Lillard going off. Would be nice to have Avery Bradley there to play defense on him. Uh. You see Kuzma, you know, making one of his five three pointers. Would be nice to have Avery Bradley taking some of those shots. Uh. You know. That's you know, it's not a loss like Lebron or Davis, but that's probably among the top more significant losses the Lakers could have had coming into this restar. At least in my opinion, it is, Chris, because they're a team that is not very deep in the backcourt, especially now with that's exacerbated without Bradley who opted out of the restart, and without re Gen Rondo who's out with the thumb injury. Um, they were thin anyways, even at full strength, they were a front court heavy team. And look at the road for the Lakers. Another reason that I'm concerned about the Lakers, Chris is let's say they do come back in this series and beat the Portland Trailblazers. Well, in the next round, they're gonna have to beat the Houston Rockets. Are okay, See Thunder. That's gonna be a difficult series either way. A lot of good perimeter players in that series on both sides, whether it's Okay See or Houston who advances, and then likely in the conference finals, they'd have to beat the l A Clippers, who I think are the best and deepest team in the league. Um. And I bring that up, Chris, because when Lebron was in the Eastern Conference, keeping in mind this is his first year in the playoffs in the Western Conference, as you know, he had a formula and that was almost always to knock out the first round opponent. That was usually a sweep or a five game series that would give Lebron and his teammates time to rest and recover. Um, he's not gonna have that luxury this year. Portland is too good, the path is too hard, and personally, as Lebron ages, he's still one of the best in NBA history, but I worry about the load he has to carry, especially with the lack of offensive help around him on the l A Lakers roster. I think Rondo's back for Game two. I mean, no player at least that I've covered plays through pain as much as Jean Rondo like nobody. I mean, the guy and you saw this in Boston had like dislocated elbow and played two and a half games with a full arm cast on. He played an overtime period with a torn a c L. I mean, the guy just goes out there and grind bains it out. I don't know what kind of impact he'll make, Ryan, because I think the idea of Rajon Rondo right now is a little bit more optimistic than the reality of him. Like, he's not a shot maker. Uh, he does take some ball handling pressure off of Lebron, so that that's a positive, But I don't know that he solves their problems necessarily with that group. I think I think he'll be back, but I'm not sure that he's the answer to what ails them. I'm not either, Although the Lakers need something, Chris and I think he's their best chance at finding a secondary playmaker where when Lebron drives and gets two or three guys on the ball, he kicks it to somebody And if that's what gion Rondo, as you know, he's probably not gonna catch and shoot it right away, but at least he can catch and attack. Um a rotating defense Chris and make a play either for himself at the rim or for somebody else making the next pass. And I think that's what the Lakers lack. If you look at the assist numbers from l A in Game one, the team had twenty two assists. Sixteen of those came from Lebron James, three and from Alex Caruso, and then three of guys had one assist to each. Chris, as you know, in the in the modern NBA, is good as Lebron James inns. It's really hard to win like that, especially when you don't have a great shooting team, and in particular one one guy, even the great Lebron James, has to carry that heavy of a load on the offensive event. Yeah, I agree. I agree. That's we'll see if Rondo can take some of that burden off him. Alright, couple offseason things before I let you go. A lot of d back was let go In Sacramento. They call it a party of the ways, But I've never seen a party of the ways where the owner says we needed to go in a different direction. That's a firing with Sacramento. Um, yeah, it's an okay. Roster right now. You've got Darn Fox, so I think is a rising star at point guard. Buddy Healed is still there. Marvin Bagley has been a mixed bag, so to speak, in his first couple of years in the NBA. When you look at the Kings, is that an appealing job for an executive? And we don't know if Joe Dumars is gonna hold on to that job full time or if he's gonna hire somebody else, But is that an appealing job to take over in Sacramento? Well, I say, like most of the jobs have become available, Chris, there are some things you like about it and some things you don't like. Uh, let's start with the things you don't like. The We talked about the turmoil and the turnover in Phoenix, and I certainly contributed that to to that to some extent, that's been the case in Sacramento as well as you know ever since um Rick Addleman was there. You look at how many different head coaches they've had and lead basketball executives they've had. And you know, Chris, my take on the media side now is I don't say anything on air that I wouldn't say to an owner's face. So I'll say this for vivek Randa DVA, and this is applicable to any owner. I think you should hire a lead basketball executive, whether it's Joe Dumars or somebody else, give that person the ability and authority to hire whoever he wants on his or her staff, uh, you know, in the front office and also on the bench, and then judge them over a period of time based on the results. And I bring that up, Chris, because it does not seem like that's been the case in Sacramento. UM. You know, people kind of come and go and their different consultants and advisors and people who may not have a relationship. So VVX a smart guy, and I think and hope he's learned his lesson and and we'll let Joe Dumars, who's an excellent executive, or somebody else in that role, UM do that. So those are the negative. The positives are. They have a great new arena, They have a terrific practice facility. UM. They have a young star point guard in Daron Fox. There is some other young talent on the roster you mentioned Buddy Healed. UM. They have a big decision coming up the soft season, which is why. I think it's important they move quickly because Bogdan Bogdanovitch, who has played well, is a restricted free agent and I think will be in demand around the league. But they also have to figure out, you know, our Bogdanovitch and healed compatible long term. I think there's been a little bit of tension and friction there. And then the key for me, Chris, and this is maybe more of a medical thing than a front office thing, but Marvin Bagley, can he stay healthy? Can he develop? Um? You know, it's it's probably not fair that is to compare him to Luka Donstis, who looks like he's gonna be one of the all time greats. But can Bagley still be a good player? Can he be a healthy, good NBA player who helps the team win? And you know that when they drafted him, Bloody d Box said this over the weekend when he got let go. They want to play fast, they want to play in transition. They thought Bagley was a really good partner for narreon Fox. I still think that may be the case. But in order for them to do that, obviously bag needs to be healthy. And in the Western Conference you need multiple young studs to try to take a jump, and I think it's crucial for for sacrament Or to get bag Ley back on the court and playing alongside Fox. And I think if that's the case over the next couple of years, they do have a talented young roster and they have a chance to be in the playoff mix in the Western Conference. Well, this is where ownership matters, right Like you've got to make the right call on who's making basketball decisions for you. And look, I've been critical of a lot of Divach for the last few years, really ever since he took the job. I mean, what happened with him and George Carl was just a total ship show. And you know, then you pass on the next great European player. When you are a great European player, your entire front office consists of European players. I mean, I that that part of me just just befuddles me. You've if you're Vive Granda dv um I don't know if Joe Dumars wants the job full time, but I think you've got to offer it to him and you've gotta let him flesh out his staff with whatever he wants. If Joe Dumars wants to hire a general manager. If he wants to hire three assistant general managers, go and do it. You've got to invest capital. And I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but you've got to invest capital in top front office executives. You've got to have brain power in these front offices and not just give the job to one of the great players in fucking Sacramento Kings history. You you just can't operate like that if you're a team. I mean, Vlada came in and fleshed out his staff. Getting on a soapbox rat right now. Vlada came in and fleshed out his staff with Paja Stoyakovic like he He brought in Pajia as an assistant GM of that team. Pajia was a great player. But come on, you've got to add basketball people in these positions. So look, I will have confidence in the King's future in two months once I see what that front office looks like. If they don't spend the money you need to spend on top basketball executives, I don't care what their arena looks like, they will continue to be the team that agents use to leverage their other team. They want to go to against them. They'll they'll do it like Wesley Matthews did it. Just they'll send guys to Sacramento for visits only just to get an offer they can turn around use for something else like that. They will not get the respect of the NBA until their front office looks like a functional NBA front office. Yeah, and to go back to my original point, Chris, I feel strongly about this. I felt like this was the case in Boston for me personally, and really was not in Phoenix. But um, I don't know why it's so hard, especially if you're an owner has been doing this for a while and you have been happy with the results. Hire somebody who's accomplished, give them autonomy, give them a budget, set clear goals, and then judge them based on the results over a period of time with minimal or ideally no interference from ownership. I don't know why that's so hard for some of these guys, but it is. And uh, you know, when um, you know again, people are in the mix or have voices that maybe they shouldn't have, or uh, you know, somebody's authority kind of waxes and waynes depending on you know, whatever, how the wind blows sometimes. Uh, it's really hard to have franchise stability. And I think and hope VI granted, dav who by all accounts is a very smart man and a very nice guy, has learned his lesson and he will do that with Joe Dumars or wherever the new incoming head of basketball is. Yeah. What what successful team doesn't operate like that? I mean every great team from San Antonio to Golden State to Miami, all these great teams. Yes they've had great talent, but they have been functional. You've had a men at the top or men at the top who uh unequivocal to your point, unequivocal authority, and then a great coaching staff and great people within that organization. That's the only way to succeed. Uh. In today's NBA. A couple of quick things here. Uh, the NBA Draft combine is gonna be virtual. Um. I don't know exactly what that means at this point. There's gonna be a couple of sites and you know, players are gonna get physicals at hospitals. I don't know what the how it's all gonna work out. But not having an n C Double A tournament, not having a traditional combine. How challenging is that going to make this draft for gms as they prepare to make uh, you know what are obviously important picks. It's a difficult draft, Chris, for a number of reasons. The first is that from what I've seen, there isn't the high end talent there are in some years. We've talked a lot about the teen draft that looks like it's going to be historically one of the all time great ones with Luka, Don Sitch, Trey Young, DeAndre Aton, Jaren Jackson Jr. Maybe Marvin Bagley, Uldis, Alexander and others. Um, this is not shaping up that way, Chris. I think this is a less talented draft than average. Is not It's not the worst. I've seen worst drafts in this one, but it is is blow the line in my opinion as far as average draft talent. So that's the first challenge. The players you know aren't aren't as good as they are in a typical year. The second, as you mentioned, are the uh the the challenges that the pandemic has cost um. Most high level executives, UM presidents and GMS do a lot of evaluation late in the com Prince tournaments and in the n C Double A tournament. Keep in mind, Chris, from a calendar standpoint, that is after the trade deadline. So um, scouts are out as you know, year round, they're going to practices, they're watching games, and November December. Most executives you know, do a little bit of that, but that they can't do that for weeks or months at a time. They have responsibilities to their own team, especially prior to the trade deadline, to try to upgrade their roster. Um. So I bring that up because a lot of executives, the top guys who making the decisions are reliance on that in person evaluation in the conference tournaments which are canceled and then n c A Double, n C l A Double turn c NC Double A tournament which never got started. Um. So because of that, you know, I think it is difficult. And then you combine that with no in market visits. Players usually fly all over the country. You can meet a player, you can spend up to forty eight hours with him, you can take them out to dinner, you can work them out, you can do physical testing, uh, you can do psychological testing, Chris, whatever you want to do with a player. All that is gone other than what you and I are doing right now, zoom and skype interviews. That's really all teams have to rely on. That in the film. So because of all those things, I think it really is an unusual year. I give credit to the NBA for trying something different. I'll just be fascinated to see how it works. Because the teams, especially the teams who are picking in the top five and are reliant on drafting a good player to help them improve a lot next year. Um, they're at a disadvantage compared to where teams were usually in those positions in previous years, have been in the past. Are you at the mercy of a players coaching staff? Maybe more than ever before, because without you know, those in market visits, without the tournament, without even the UH their own conference tournament, the body of work, especially for these one and done guys, are a lot more limited. I mean, college coaches would be able to theoretically tell you UH more than you'd be able to find out on your own. But at the same time, college coaches have I mean they've got a stake of a horse in the race here, They've got a stake in the game, Like if they get a guy draft in the top ten, they can turn around and tell their recruits, I just gotta grad draft in the top ten. Look at look at me, Look what I can do. Come to my school and play. I mean, are you in a situation like this our gms? Maybe more at the mercy of what kind of truth these college coaches will tell you, because they don't have as much evidence as they'd like. You can be and I'll be honest with you. Some of the worst information I ever got personally was from college head coaches about their players. Actually, I got a lot of heard that a lot better information from assistant coaches or even you know, strength conditioning coaches, trainers, people around the program who aren't, as you mentioned, trying to put it on their board for recruiting that we've had x number of first round picks or x number of lottery picks. They're just honest with you and they tell you the truth. So um, that's you know, one tangent. But I think what teams are doing. I know what teams are doing because I have a bunch of friends with all thirty teams in the league, Chris, is what they're doing now because they have more time since the draft had been pushedback, and also because they have less information with the market workouts, some of them are really diving into the film. In fact, I think a lot of teams I've talked to, you think they're overdoing the film where you just start to pick a guy apart because you watch game after game because there's nothing else to do with no individual workouts, and the other thing you're doing, Chris is getting creative as far as the intel, which is what you're referring to, with the college coaches, they're calling AU coaches, they're calling high school coaches, they're even finding you know, maybe obscure people who it's not initially apparent and know the player, but trying to gather as much information as they can because because again usually that's a field in market. When a player flies in, you have a meal or multiple meals with them, you get a feel for his character, You have that information gathering process that is not available right now with the pandemic. So the teams I've talked to were getting really creative, especially with how they gather their intel, and uh, you know, they hope that will make their decisions a little bit better. Despite the fact that they're not able to have workouts in their market. All right, last question for you. You've got the uh, the coaching openings starting to pick up a little bit. The Pelicans let go of Alvin Gentry, Chicago part ways with Jim Boilant. Could be a few other jobs opening up in the next couple of weeks. We know the Nets at some point of going to do uh some kind of national search, maybe Philadelphia, maybe uh, some other teams. Tyler seems to be at the center of this storm. And you're very familiar with ty Lou, who of course won a championship in Cleveland now on Doc Rivers staff. Um. I think it could get to the point Ryan where he turns down, like where he could have to turn down two or three jobs to take the one that he wants. I mean, he could have his pick of the litter, so to speak. What is it in your mind that makes tie such a valued coach and what do you think the best fit is for him, uh in some of these jobs that might be open. Yeah, a few things, Chris. I'm a big Tye Lou fan. As you know, we worked together with the Celtics. I was in the front office, he was on Doc Rivers staff in Boston. A couple of things. I think the easy thing to say, and what was the book on Tie initially when you get the head coaching job was relationships and the respect that Lebron James and Kyrie Irving and the star players in Cleveland around the league have for ty Lou. That is true. Um. What I think surprises a lot of people, Chris is when you talk to Kendrick Perkins, who is on our show on Scallopal's radio dot com, and other guys who have played for Tyron Lou, they say, no, he's not just a motivator. He's not just a relationship guy. He is a coach. He is an exce and no guy. He is a schemer. Um. So he could really do everything from a coaching perspective. I think his track record reflects that. Now, look, he had great players obviously with Lebron James, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Um, but you know his his track record for a young coach is as good as any in recent NBA history. Chris, So, I think for all of those reasons, he's really in demand. Um two jobs. I would keep an eye and from from him that I keep hearing from my sources round the league. I know you're hearing the same. Uh, the Brooklyn Nets if they do make a change, although I think Jack Vaughan with what he's done, deserves strong consideration there. And then in particular, uh, the New Orleans Pelicants, which I think the the synergy and fit with David Griffin who was the GM in Cleveland who made the controversial change to let go of David Blatt to move on from Blatt. In a point, Tyler the head coach on a team that was winning, UH, team that had just gone to the NBA Finals year before and end up going again that year and winning the championship that year. Keep an eye on that. And it's interesting, Chris, because I don't know from Tyler's perspective which one is more desirable. Brooklyn is the more ready made team, assuming Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving come back healthy. Uh, Carris LeVert, you know it looks like a star in the in the restart in Orlando. So for they'll get Spencer Dinuiti backs. So that is a loaded championship contending roster again assuming Katie is healthy, which I think is a big question mark. But then New Orleans has all the young talent with Zion, with Brandon ingram A lawnso Ball struggled in the restart. We'll see if you can get his jump shot on track. But they also have some good veterans like Drew Holiday and J. J. Reddick. So I think if Tylan Lou wants to win right away, it's Brooklyn. And if he is willing to be a little more patient and maybe even have a little more longevity given the agent, talent and the roster, keep an eye on him potentially going to the New Orleans Pelicans. I think that some people questioned Tyler when he turned down that Lakers job last year, but he could turn around and play these teams against each other and wind up with like a five year deal at six seven million dollars per year maybe more. I mean, he might have played this perfectly, Ryan, and he could walk away potentially a championship as an assistant coach and then walk into a coaching job that, if it's Brooklyn, could lead to a championship next year as a head coach. I mean, he he might he might have played this perfectly, you know, Tyler. I give Tyler a lot of credit for this to Chris. It would have been very easy for him to to sit at his house in Las Vegas and collect checks because he's still getting paid by Cleveland. But he did the same thing that Jason kid did on the Lakers bench. Those guys wanted to work. That they again they're they're you know, made a lot of money as players, especially in Jason's case, uh and now coaching and in the case of Jason and Tie, but those guys wanted to work. They got back on benches, which I think makes them, uh you know NBA head coaching candidates again quicker than they had they sat at home. And Tyler, I completely agree with you. I think he will have his his choice of jobs. Um if I had a handicap, and I guess he ends up in New Orleans. But Brooklyn is an intriguing one. Although think of all the issues you know that you have to deal with their Chris, you know Kyrie Irving, Um, you know from being around the Celtics in that market, with Katie coming back, there is a lot more short term pressure on the Brooklyn Ned's head coach next year than there is if you are the head coach of the New Orleans Pelicans. Yeah, especially if you replace Jacque Vaughan, and the memory of Jacque Vaughan is going to be how well he coached this team this summer and why didn't you give him a chance? And if that team struggles around the gate, there's some function a lot of that could you know, fall into tie loose shoulders, Uh, pretty quickly. Ryan, Always appreciate talking to you, man. Scalon Pals. Every weekday noon Eastern time on the rate on Radio dot com, the radio dot Com app. I will say this, we've been doing this, uh this show via zoom and there's a picture of Scalabrini behind your right shoulder. It's kind of freaking me out a little bit. It's it's it's spooking me a little Chris. That's an autograph picture cost twenty two dollars that showed up from a shady office park in China and just for for your for your listeners or your viewers in particular, um you know who haven't got a good look at this. I think most of them thought I had a Celtics had on Chris. That is actually a Brian Scalabrini forty four in the lepre Con logo. Um so yeah, there's a show my Strange addiction, and I think one final thing here, I think I have a problem, Chris, where I'm trying to go cold turkey and give up all this Brian Scalabrini memorabilia. But as of now, I've not been able to quit buying Brian Scalabrini theme memorabilia. Has Brian Scalabrini become your boss? Like in have We Come full Circle? I mean you were part of the organization that signed him, has scaled become your employer? No, I never listened to a thing that guy says, and that's including on on our show on radio dot Com. Hey, right and appreciate it, man, stay stay well out there, and now thanks for joining me. Thank you, Chris. Coming up next, my conversation with Jake Johnson. Jake Johnson's here. You know him from shows like The New Girl, Stump Town. Also starred in Jurassic World. His newest show is Hoops and an animated sitcom. But let's call him a follow mouth basketball coach trying to make it Big that debuts on Netflix on August one, and Jake joins me here on the show, did I describe that accurately? Jake, Is that a good one, since you know it's an R rated show about a coach. I think it's high school kids and he can't get out of his own way. It's bad news Bears meets Curb Your Enthusiasm. That's a horror hard are that is for adults only. It is as vulgar as you can imagine. It is a funk around show. There's no deep message to it. There's nothing. There's nothing to it besides hopefully people who are bored during quarantine you can just sit around and hopefully get some laughs. And that's really all. This one is so not something. And you've got two young daughters, not something that when they get a little bit older, daddy's in a cartoon. I want to watch a cartoon. No, you know, I would even say, like, fourteen year old, slowdown, fifteen slowdown. It's for adults. It's disgusting. We hope there's no messages in there that our hatred. So all that your kids would be exposed to is disgusting language, which just keep them away from it. And you there's no build up to that either. Like I watched the pilot and right off the bat, you're having a biblically nasty break reaction to referee. It's like, all right here, this is the show. This is what it's gonna be. That the thing that I've been saying while doing press for it, and when this was presented to me and we you know, I realized we made this seven years ago. The that opening seeing you saw and then it went away and then it came back with Netflix. Is if you don't if the first minute throws you, you're not comfortable with it, it's not your sense of humor or defends you, turn it off because it's not going to get better. I'm not convinced it's going to get worse. But what I like about what Hoops is is it where's what it is on the sleeve. You either like this individual or you do not like this individual, but it's not gonna grow and change and involved if Netflix doesn't exist, does this show get made? No? And I know that as a fact because we've made this about seven years ago. Ben Hoffman, who created it, he's really the he's the guy behind it. It's his comedic tone, it's his voice, it's his show. Um. He Chris Miller and Phil Lord, who are dousing it came to me and we made this for MTV, which at the time, seven years ago, that was where you could go for to try to make something outside of the box. Not only did they pass on it, but everybody passed on it. So this only exists now in the world of streaming because you know, Netflix also believes, I think that they can cater things just two adults, you know, with their parental controls or whatnot. So this couldn't make it on cable. This is never near network. This is a streaming ship. And then Netflix has to be great for actors. I mean just the shows they'll make and even the movies. They'll make, stuff that Hollywood won't even make anymore, right, I mean it's like they'll do blockbusters, but those niche shows and the niche movies. And I I love, you know, the movies that I used to grow up. Well, I mean one of my favorite movies is Beautiful Girls. I don't know if you remember seeing it, Tim Hutton, Lauren Holly back in the day. That movie never gets made in today's market, like it. Netflix creates that stuff. I agree, you know, it's complicated though to me. The I moved out to Los Angeles and two thousand four to make it in this business. And I'm not sure if YouTube had already started, but it hadn't already started in my world in two thousand four. And you know, I came from theater and doing you know, improv on stage and comedy, and at that time, in two thousand and four, there was a goal because there was a few networks, a few cable places, a few big studios, and a few people who made indie movies, and to get on one of those really meant something that well, nowadays there's just so much content from Instagram to Twitch to every streaming device, so I think, yes, there's something great for actors that you can make any type of show. Now it just means a lot less in my opinion. So the I'm not sure I would have moved to l A in two thousand and twenty to try to make it. Knowing what it is, I'll just stay in my basement and make Instagram videos and try to get sponsorship. So it's good and it's bad. It's it's you know, like everything else, it's a new world. Jake Johnson influencer that could have been you know what, God, No, I would get a day job have you Have you gotten used to the reality of virtual promotion? I mean, I would imagine in normal times you'd be making the rounds talking about a show like this, and you know, I'm watching you this week doing a virtual panel for Comic Con like you're it's all virtual nowadays. Have you gotten used to it? Um? It's what I What I like about it is I'm able to you know, during our breaks and I could just go in and see my family. But there is something about it all. And obviously, look in the state of affairs where we're in. I'm talking to you from a bubble, an NBA bubble, and I'm in my back office right So there's and all. There's also people with way bigger issues during the pandemic than this. But it's just so surreal, you know. I do miss the world where we used to be able to travel and this would be in New York and we could go to a restaurant before and hop in a cab to get somewhere. I missed when the economy, when like money was just trickling around. Um. But I will say the good said about technologies that it can still happen, and I have been shocked. I do a weekly poker game with some friends. Then at first, when my buddy Jeff Bainnett put it together, I didn't think it would work, and it really works. You know, zooming. We're on like a site called don Co House, and we like play cards, and it honestly feels like we're all together. I've never I've never heard a zoom before all this, couldn't never heard of it, and now I don't know what I would do without it at this point. It's it's wild how it all plays out. Um. As I was watching, as I was preparing to talk to you for this, I was watching your appearance on Jimmy Kimmel this past March, and I noticed the date on it. It was March eleventh that you were there, and that was really the day that the sports world stood still. I mean it was on that date that it was after I left taped. Yeah, yeah, that that same day. I mean, watching that and remembering that experience, could you have ever envisioned what was coming next? I mean, you and Jimmy seemed to think like it was something that was, you know, there, but you could avoid it. But looking back on it, it was you know, look, I was dead wrong. Like a lot of us. I thought, I thought that this was meant to be taken seriously, but there was a concern. I remember when they asked me to do the show, you know, some people advised not to go, and I thought, well, of course I'm gonna go. And even backstage there I remember people saying, like, you're not supposed to shake hands with anybody, and people had hand sanitizer. But I couldn't quite wrap my head around it, just because of the way, you know, growing up in Americans, you know, I was born in seventy eight. I just didn't think it was going to hit our country that hard, and if it did, I thought we would fix it in like two weeks, you know. I mean, like I've now seen that that it's naive, But I had deeply no understanding, and I honestly still don't, so I really I have no gauge anymore of how long this is gonna last. Where we're at with it, I don't pretend to I'm not getting on social media and pretending to be political about it, because I don't know that that echo chamber never works. It never never leads to anything productive. How far along were you in the production of hoops when kind of the world stood still. You're finished, You're finished, So it didn't affect that. I think the animators in Ben, you know, we're still doing some work on it, but I had been done recording for a long time. Your character in this show, Ben Hopkins, are you basing him on any character? I mean, the obvious one might be Bobby Knight, because in that first scene you throw a chair onto the floor, and that's Bob. They're similarities. Ben Hoffman, the guy who wrote it and created it, is from Kentucky and he's a big college basketball fan, and so he had he probably has more of the influences. The truth is when I came in, you know, I grew up in a family with my mom had nine brothers and sisters in Chicago, and they were really loud and really funny and ship talking was a big part of my childhood. And if somebody could tell a funny story as a kid, you got a lot of attention, and laughs really meant something in my house. And you know, there is a world of comedy where it says, if you go blue, it's cheaper if you swear you're going after the easy joke, which I understand that didn't exist in my house, doesn't exists a joke to me as a joke. So for me, all I was really trying to do with this was make Ben laugh. And when I read his lines and I read that opening monologue, you know, I thought it was funny, and I thought, let's see how far we can push it. And if he was laughing, I knew tonally it was kind of right. I would say that the night characteristics and a little bit of Tom Thibodeau in there as well, like I've got a question for you about tips if you don't mind any transition him a little, not at all. So the Bulls have lost. Man, I'm a Chicago Bulls fan. The organization I have no interest in, even though I think they have some talent there. When I used to write for grant Land occasionally, and I would always want to write about Telling Thibodeau because I don't think you get rid of a guy like that as your head coach. I think, even though he's tough, I think guys like Jimmy Butler and the right type of player loved to play for him. How do you think he's gonna do in New York? And I saw that somebody didn't like him as a head coach. What do you think his reputation is, How do you think he's gonna do. I think he's gonna do exceptionally well. I think he he is the least qualified human being on the planet to be a coach and a general manager, Like he should not have those roles, Like he just he can't separate the two job bobs, and you have to. But as a coach, you saw it in Chicago before it imploded. In Minnesota, it was really good. And he's going to New York and he's got this rep like you can't coach young players? What the hell were the Bulls? The Bulls Like Rue's the youngest m v P ever, but he he turned our whole franchise. Or and my good buddy Josh Bronnen is a Timberwolves fan. What happened in Minnesota with Thibodeau because when he went there, Uh, Josh and I used to always talked about how they were now the new Bulls because they got everybody for a while, and I thought there's not a chance they weren't gonna be stars. I thought Wiggins was gonna do great under Thibodeau. I thought. I mean, I thought for sure they were going to be contenders. What do you think happened there? Well, it's it really boils down to Tibbs was loyal to Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler didn't like the young guys that were there. So it was like two factions, like you can be on team you know, Timber Pups over there or or Jimmy. And he doubled down on Jimmy and it didn't work out. So at that point, you really once Jimmy's gone, you can't go back to the young guys. But like, I'm here for you. You know, it's like if you and you know inside and out the NBA, do you go with Jimmy or do you go with the young kids. I just I don't think he saw it as a binary question. I think he thought he could have sided with Jimmy but still have those guys come along. I don't think he really appreciated just how big a disconnect there was and what he did it was too late. It was a great I don't know if you watched the Game of Zone stuff that was on UH Bleach Report, but it's like a comedy UH animated series that they do, and it's like, you know, you see a video of like the entire organization burning down, and that's what it was at that time. It was burning down in that that last year. But he's like, I'm actually glad he's not here inside the bubble because you can hear everything that coaches say on the court, like Tips is like fuck shit, but like he is constantly with that that that tone. So I'm glad he wasn't. Uh, he wasn't our partis. But I gotta say, Tims is somebody who I really liked him as a coach. And Jimmy Butler, if if I still have a favorite NBA player, it's Jimmy Butler. How is his reputation for a while as a bad teammate when it just seems and I'm obviously outside of the world, all this dude wants to do is win. Yeah No, And look, one of the big mistakes Philadelphia might live to regret is letting him go, not keeping him around, uh, when it seemed like he had a good relationship at least with Joel Embiide and if not others. Uh, I don't know. I Miami loves him. Miami thinks they're but if you take a guy with Jimmy Butler's talent, his work ethic, because I remember when we got him in Chicago. We drafted him at the end of the first round, and I didn't think much of him. We already had our squad, and then I remembered the talk where it was either he or Garrett Rose's team. And my first though I was like, get out of you, man, it's deare Grows team. And then because I love Rose, but as it started going, I started realizing, like, oh, Jimmy Butler's for real. I thought. At that moment, it was so clear a guy like that, you throw the bank at him. This is his fourth NBA team. He's an all defender, he can score, he can handle the ball, he helps young guys develop, and he's gonna he's gonna bust you hard at practice and wants the ball lat in games, which not a lot of guys do. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I wonder what would have happened in Philly if that Kawhi Leonard shot doesn't go in, the one that bounces six times, it doesn't go in, and it doesn't go because do they get to the finals, do they win a championship. I mean, it's just that simple man as a Chicago Bear fan, you know, when we were in the playoffs and the double doing right if that, if that kick goes in, I don't know how deep we get in the playoffs. Risky's confidence. If you saw what he did in that game, he had a great game. We are now as a franchise where I'm seeing every you know, national media at the bottom of the thirty two. It all started with that one kick. And the crazy thing about sports is how you know each little moment, though of the teeny bit of a bounce of a ball, can set an organization back a decade. It's wild. It's wild how how that works out. Um. One thing I wanna ask you about having seen the first episode, Uh, you have some cameos in there. Moving forward, you have some of your cast mates from The New Girl that are appearing on the show. Are there any basketball players making cameos as characters on the show. I don't think so. I'm trying to remember, Um, yeah, I don't think so. If then if there is a season, if there is a season two, would you want basketball players? You know it's tricky because uh, you know it is about basketball, but it's about small town. So Ben Hoffman is from Kentucky and it is about small town Kentucky and coach my character in it is a loser, So we would have to figure out how a real guy would ever deal with him. You know, the closest we have is his dad, Barry Hopkins played in the A. B. A. Played by Rob Wriggle. So potentially, if it was a guy his dad's age, you know, maybe if there's a flashback, you know, potential we could get somebody that way. But it's true. I'm just thinking more like have a player voice one of them like Kevin Garnett would be phenomenal, the most foul mouth player I've ever covered, would be phenomenal, Like it would be natural for him to speak the way he does funny. I mean, I definitely wouldn't be against it. I'll tell you that. No, that's a good one. And uh, you know, inside this NBA bubble, would you wantant to ask anybody to be on the show inside the bubbleism here as they as they look to get some of their their women friends inside the Yes, So tell me about that email you were just telling me we were talking off the off the air about the The The NBA sent a memo around outlining who is allowed in who is allowed out right, so basically saying to sum it up, family members can come in, kids can come in, but people that you meet on social media are not allowed to come in. Basically, you're not allowed to bring in one night stands, so to speak, and into which one one GM said to me, you're gonna see a lot of you know, Thelma's look like a nineteen year old or twenty five year old whatever it is girls. So NBA players, NBA players are playing chess when the league's playing checkers on this subject like that, there is such a funny concept. And here's my question. If everyone's being tested, who cares who they bring in? I agree, I think who cares? Because if you don't let them bring whoever they want, it makes it more likely they try to burst the bubble and go out. But something, What is the difference between somebody's uncle coming to visit getting tested and somebody they met besides most likely a really fun two hours for the player, there's no difference if both people, the uncle and the random person on Instagram both want to be there, Why is the lead playing Godfather here. I don't know that this could be one of those situations where they pivot on the fly, like if players are like otherwise, they're just gonna have guys lying in doing different things to game. But dealing with something that I do find frustrating with sports at times as a viewer. You're dealing with adults even though it is a kid's game. And I feel this in my business at times, because we're acting, which is essentially a kid's game. You know, if you can do it in junior high school and put on a musical, it's no different than what we're doing. But we are adults doing it. So if I'm on a production and they try to give us like a curfew in the hotel, I'm like, yeah, dude, you're the producer. I'm in my forties. I work for you on set. I do not work for you when I'm off the set. So I'm like, if i'm working, I'm a professional athlete and I'm not playing that day and I've finished practice and I'm allowed a visitor, what do you think? I'm sixteen, but you my parents get out of here. I think I think you're lending voice to what a lot of players are thinking right now because it doesn't make any sense. Imagine like a group of like IBM does a bubble right and they're trying to figure out how IBM can compete with Apple, And then they say to like, dear IBM executives, you're allowed to bring in these people, but you can't bring in that person. No, I pass. Yeah. I think a lot of guys are gonna be frustrated by by that, or they're like I said, they're gonna have some quote family the men to do blood tests to prove some of these people are family members that are coming through here. The other question I was talking to about off air that I would love to get more into if you're comfortable with it, is my buddies and I have been talking about the amount of trash talk and the heat that the bubbles generating between some of these players, because a lot of us have talked about how you know, if you grew up in the ear. I grew up with basketball in the nineties. It was a different game. It was way rough. If you took it down the middle, you got hurt. Teams seem to genuinely hate each other in a way that the new era has changed there's more switching of teams. A lot of these guys grew up playing together. The bubble seems to be slightly changing that a little bit where there seems to me some you know, I thought, I what I read about Paul George reaching out and saying like, I don't want to get too personal. I actually respect a move like that. But the heat that seems to be generated. Do you think that's then just getting you know, away from their families too long, you know, in a hotel l and just battling or is there something going on in the hallways? Is there? Ship and me talked about it breakfast. I think you're right that, like a you has changed everything because all these guys were teammates at some point on some level. So it's harder to hate somebody that you exactly exactly. Um, there is a lot of cross pollination in these hotels. You passed each other constantly, whether it's going to a pool or going to breakfast wherever you are. It hasn't been that bad yet. There's been some tension in one hotel, which is called the yacht Club here doesn't really look like a yacht club, but it's called that, and that's where all the teams that are fighting for that last spot in the playoffs are are staying. But where I expect there to be more tension is when this progresses, right because eventually they consolidate to one hotel because Disney's gotta open up for others. So when they get to one hotel and you get to a can for its finals and you've got Kyle Lowry piste off walking around and bumps into like ar bledsoe in the hallway, because right now, and it's you know, I think what the NBA is doing is brilliant. I think the bubble is great. I think for the fans it's really fun. It's been a hell of a distraction. But I do think at a certain point, you know, when if I put myself in their shoes, right, you obviously want to win. In my business, I want the job to write. So if I'm auditioning for a big movie against another dude who's my type, well I really do want to beat that person. But if I don't get the job and I go home to my house and I see my family and my kids don't care about my career and my wife doesn't really care, I can forget it. But if that dude beats me and then I go to a terrible little hotel room. When I say terrible, I don't care how nice it is. Eventually every room is terrible, and you're laying on your bed and you're watching the same TV show and all you're thinking about is that dude beat me, and then you have to see him in the hallway. Eventually, you know, the championship, there's one big steak dinner and only one team gets to eat it. Everybody else goes hungry. You were away from your family, you weren't raising your kids, and still you don't get to eat the dinner. I mean, they should have cameras, and if they don't, there should be documentaries about that bubble and about those hallways. Because the the ship talking in an elevator, I'm like, please let the fans see this. This is what we want. I agree. I agree, And this is this is where I would encourage players to use their access to shoot more stuff. You see guys like Motiste Table with the Sixers having his own YouTube series like shot shoot those hallways, Man, shoot us by the way, man, you're dead right. The a guy named Ian half of the Cubs started a podcast during quarantine and reached out. We did the podcast, and I've been seeing he's been opening up a little bit about what it's like to be a player. That level of access is so fun for the fans, and there's no bad for it. Any commission or any league who says like, you're not allowed to do this and fine them, like then get the union against that, because there's nothing wrong with opening it up and showing everybody what it's actually like for these players. And I think what it will do for the fans, it will make us all like them more, because you know, sometimes a regular Joe fans sees the millions of dollars and gets really alienated. But at a certain point, they're just guys and they're competing for their livelihood and with the amount of pressure they have, it's just a great story. It's what keeps me drawn into sports over and over again, and that is, you know, you can lose your contract at any point and it really matters how you do that night, and it's a lot of pressure these guys are on there. It's fun to watch now, You're right, the connectivity to fans is important in doing that. Would you know bring you into their lives more and making more interested in watching them, watching them play. Jake, it's great to talk. You're great to meet you here. WOPS debuts August twenty one. It's on Netflix, all ten episodes. The first one I've seen. It's terrific and uh, hopefully we you know, if this thing is a big hit, Jake, we want to see NBA guys talking their ship on the show. Chris. Here's what I'll guarantee you. If we get a season two, we will offer roles too many NBA players and I'll follow it is a disgusting show. Just leak it. Leak that you offered it to everybody. Just put it out there on Jake, good to talk to you, man,