What up. It's the Crossover Pod Friday edition, Howard Beck, senior writer for Sports Illustrated. We have reached the unofficial start of NBA trade season. Quick note, there's actually no such thing as NBA trade season. We in the media just sort of made that term up because you know, it makes for an easy hook, and people love trades and trade rumors and everything that goes with it, and uh, frankly, this is how we pander to it. There is no trade season. December fifteenth to simply the date at which a lot more guys who signed over the summer are eligible to be traded. And yes, it loosens up the market four trades, but there there's not really a trade season, folks. People could have made trades like a week ago. Um, they're not gonna make trades today just because we've hit December fift It's all silly. But we love trades and we love trade talk, and if we're going to discuss trades, potential trades, intel all the latest rumblings around the league, there is no one better than my pal Jake Fisher of Yahoo Sports. He's my guest today. Jake's has plugged in as anyone covering this league, and he's had a couple of really timely stories lately as well, one about Joel Embiid that got some buzz, which we will discuss, and went on Jordan's pool, which seems especially timely now given Steph Curry's shoulder injury and his likely absence for the next couple of weeks. How do the Warriors proceed from here? Does that impact their trade market discussions? And which teams are we keeping an eye on across the league? And how will the unprecedented parody this season which I wrote about recently, how will that impact all the trade discussions? We will discuss all of that before we get to it. A quick reminder, please rate, review, and subscribe to The Crossover wherever you get your podcasts, and hit me with your feedback on Twitter at Howard Beck. Okay, my conversation with Jake Fisher is coming up next, so stick around. This is the Crossover and NBA show hosted by Sports Illustrated. It's Chris Mannox and Howard Back. It's a whole new level for you and me. Chris. This relationship like and described for the best weekly NBA content, these two are capable of. What did that mean could be the best duo ever. I'll see how you can beat that. Here they are Chris Mannox and Howard Back now very pleased to be joined. Live from an undisclosed Homewood Sweets somewhere in the continental US. Jake Fisher, Jake, live from your kitchenette. It's it's it's nice. It's got some nice dark stained wood there. Um. I see a microwave. Probably came with some like a free bag of microwave popcorn. Do they do that? At the Homewood Sweets There was no free bag of microwave popcorn on. I got two free water bottles upon entry, And as a New Yorker, I'm always suspect of the quality of the tap water whenever I leave the Greater New York City area. So we appreciated the bottles of water. Although environmental standpoint, getting the plastic bottles there's always a tough, a tough pain, but you know, it is what it is. Sometimes that is that is a quandary. I appreciate. There's at least a few hotels I've been doing the last year where they have gotten rid of the water bottles entirely and they now have like just the dispensers. The ones were like the machine where you can just go up, put your bottle in and has the little sensor there fills up your So I've taken to trying to travel with the bottle, trying to be good, but you're it's hard. You go to a hotel, they're just gonna keep shoving plastic bottles of water in your hands, and you know, what are we gonna do? Then? Uh? I appreciate you joining me while out on the road on assignment. UM, and in a busy crazy week in the NBA. Uh, They're all busy, crazy weeks. I don't know why we even bothered distinguishing one from the next. So I want to We're speaking the morning after the news on Steph Curry, so I do want to get to Steph Curry and his shoulder and what it means for the Warriors, UM and some trade season UH chatter because we just had the ridiculous unofficial opening of trade season December fifteenth. I don't know why we do this. We'll we'll talk about why we do this. It's the unofficial opening of trade season and it means absolutely nothing, but that's fine. UM. I want to start with Joel Embiid though, and the Sixers, because while I don't necessarily think the Sixers are going to be active trade well, they've got Darryl morri as GM. They'll always be active in the trade market, at least looking around and scouring um. But they're one of the interesting kind of below I want to say, blow the radar, but they're kind of been off the radar early in the season, injuries, underachieving a bit. Um. Still don't know what they are as you and I speak, their three games over five hundred and you had some time with Joel Embiad within the last week, uh, one on one with him talking about the state of things, his partnership with James Harden, the Sixers, hopes and dreams, uh and some strange detours that the conversation took that we'll get into in a second, but let's just start with this. You you talked to Joel Embiid one on one. He doesn't do a ton of these um. Curious a little bit just from a reporter standpoint, how came about? I know you did a book about the Sixers too, or or with a lot of Sixers in it anyway, so you've been around that team a lot. Um. How did you how did you end up having the one on one with Joel Embiat? What is the sense you're getting from Joel embiad about his um, the state of affairs there, and how he's feeling about where the Sixers are right now? Yeah, so with his Friday, December sixteenth, so last Thursday, so a little over a week ago, took the train down from New York UM to do a story on a separate six most player. I'll say that it's not a big, huge needle moving topic, but he's got an interesting story. And when I went down there, though, I I made sure to tell Sixers PR, you know, just really sell the amtrak ticket to the bosses. It would be nice to make sure that I can get Joel's voice in this um. So. I mean, you're you're you're the veteran of this industry. I'm sure you've done way more. And you walk and talk as they're walking to the team bus or they're heading to their car after game or shoot around whatever. That's what I was expecting to get with Joel. Honestly, I was standing with PR at the practice facility, like literally between the exit to the part players parking lot, and you're kind of I mean, I just told a friend I'm about to head to shoot around here, UM to sit down with someone. I told her friend yesterday Like to me, maybe this is wrong, but I never I never expect even like a guaranteed availability to happen until it happens, right, because that's just kind of business. So with Joel even that day, PR was like, well, see what kind of mood he's in, because you're You're right, he has not very often wanted to really sit down and talk with people. I remember reading Mark Stein's newsletter recently about UM asking him about the French national team, and he didn't seem too eager to talk there. So I'm I'm standing and if I'm being storytelling, tell me. But it's a podcast and we gotta phil fort a minute, so I'll bring it to a clothes and that I was expecting him to just talk for a few minutes about this other teammate and which that story run around Christmas day, UM, and he was pointed to the table like five feet away and like pulling up a seat on his own volition. UM, And I brought I brought a copy of my book to give to him because he was in it pretty often and I figured it would be a nice little touch and it was cool. He looked at it, goes, oh, Bill to lose, like, I've I've seen a lot of these around here. And you know the question that I kind of wrote more artfully before the Q and A started the story of like, um, you know, give me give a message to the fans who are kind of frustrated him. I said to him, what but I directly said to him, was you know I'm obviously I'm from here, and he goes, yeah, I know you're from Jersey. So he clearly he paid attention, like he clearly um felt that I was someone who has been around the team. I understand what he's gone through from before he was even drafted the Philly So I think when he says to me, which I'm which, I'll do your your segue for you to kind of be uh valuable and how long win did I've been here? When I said to him, like, you know, give the message to my high school friends and my fantasy football group chat who are freaking out about this team, you know, give them reason not to panic. And he said, I don't know, since fans want to trade me, but he smiled, And I think that's a microcosm of where he's at and that I think he recognizes having been an m VP runner up the last two years and not really wanting to. He's not like a super as much as he's a troll online and he makes these funny comments. He's pretty introverted person and he spends a lot of time off the court and sweatpants playing FIFA at home. So I'll bring this to a isn't saying that? Like, I really felt like he kind of feels super comfortable where they're at, and feels comfortable where he's at, and he's kind of seeing the bigger picture now of how you kind of need to take control of your narrative sometimes in this present day where a former employer of both of ours can take one quote out of contact and blasted across soulal media and it turns into a national disaster for filled up this havingy sixers fans in fairness, uh. The UH practice of taking a single quote UH and removing all context and bleasting it out across the universe is now something that everybody does, so not just a former not just a former employer of yours in mind. Um, in fairness, it's it's sadly now just about everybody, um, which is why your podcast is called don't aggregate this. Um. I assume that's more or less the genesis of that. It's pretty straightforward. Well, I titled it because I know it will be and I think it's really funny to read an article saying, you know, Howard Beck said on the Police, don't aggregate this podcast. It's just so, it's that really gets me every single time. It's a it's a it's a great uh meta joke. UM. Props for for the for the podcast title, and for taking advantage of our completely fucking warped media ecosystem. Um. So let me get to that quote, the quote that, of course was in fact aggregated, uh wildly. So I'm gonna read from your story. He was then asked to deliver a message to the Jake Fisher childhood friend group chat um, to the segment of Philadelphia's fan base that has found cause for panic that is pounding their timeline to remove Doc Rivers and wants to declare that the trade that landed James Harden is already a failure. Um. There was the sentiments of of apparently your group chat or at least Sixer fans that you're hearing on on radio down there, and and bead says to you, quote, I don't know Sixers fans they want to trade me? Then you write the twenty year old and why does Breathy left filling the space? There's that twinkling and beads eye when he's ready to unwind and talk. And then you say to him, you don't believe that, and a bead says, I do believe that they want to trade me? Is he just dicking around? Or does Joel Embiid really think that there are fans who want to trade him? Because the only time I've ever heard in the last couple of years, and I fear this being aggregated now, the only time I've ever heard Joel Embiad's name mentioned in quote unquote trade rumors is when rival executives Scots roun the league do the who are we keeping an eye on? Well, you know what if things don't go well there with him and Harden or if things don't go like whatever the current drama or relationship of the day is in Sixer Land that is merits scrutiny. If that does not go well, we're reaching a point where and be at this stage of his career, while still in his prime, could be the guy to want to ask out right, Like, it's not that complicated. It's the way we look at every superstar in this league these days, especially if you're a two time m VP runner up and one of the most dominant players in the league and he's having a spectacular season, Like, it's it's logical if you've if you took a swing with this move, this move, this move, this coach, this coach, this coach, and none of them work out. Eventually we all assume and rival gms assume, Oh well, maybe Joel and beat Laska. That's all that's all there is to it, folks. So, like, this is not a trade rumor. That is the only context I've ever heard Embiad's name even linked to the word trade, Jake, So where is this coming from? Yeah, the only other context I've really heard it is who the Sixtress could trade for to pair with Gil Embiid Right, So yes, I think I think where it was coming from is it's Philly, right, And you know, I was listening to the Rights to Ricky Sanchez podcast while I was waiting in the Monahan train hall to head down for that UM that reporting trip, and that pod has a great UM like they take They have like an answering want machine line. I don't know how the technology works, but they call people. They take calls from listeners that are recorded. And this one guy was just furious after a loss. I forget to who it was, but was saying like they're a disaster, They're not gonna win anything, blow it up now hard and stinks trade and be blah blah blah. So and and Philly is I mean, I I'm from the area. I went to school in Boston. I live in New York. Now. All three cities are pretty similar in their approach to their sports, which I find funny being that all three cities are also like, We're not like the other two, and they're virtually identical in terms of sports profile. UM. I think Billy sports talk radio has more of like a woe is Me energy than the others UM. And I think the media scene in uh, you know, on the local airwaves has a pensiant to want to trying to play doomsday scenarios. Further, so, I think and Embead having troll l embiid as his Twitter name, like he's aware that that stuff happens. And I do think that maybe he is trying to probably spark a little like no, we love you the type of reaction and if and if there is any type of goal from that also like it was a random Thursday and he I mean, I think he was sucking around, if I can say that on and to to really like like like some solidify the standing he has in the franchise. Like after we stood up from our literal sit down and he starts walking away to the car, Darryl comes over and like pulled him into his office to talk about some some some strategy, let's say so, and he's in. And I think that's just a small literal site, not even a scene that's elemental of like how that operate works there, like everything that you know in Brooklyn. I think it might be sometimes overblown how much Kevin Durant is involved with UH leadership there um. But I think in Philly, for sure they work in lockstep. I think Darryl they're not taking and I know they're not taking orders from embiid, but they definitely consult him on virtually everything. So, um, I think there's nothing to worry about for six years fans in terms of him being the centerpiece on the pillar of this franchise, definitely through this season and you know, if they have another disastrous uh you know, shortcoming in the playoffs. I think every every every situation that could seem as sturdy as possible is always open to be revisited. But I mean right now and and the resources that this team has invested in building a team specifically around Duel embiid, I think he's pretty happy. And the first quote in the story was him saying how he loves where the team is at. So I think that's all you need to know. Um, well that that I mean that that was a completely non aggregatable response, Jake, like your entire like there was way too much nuanced there. You're supposed to say, if it crashes and burns, that's it, it's over. If there everybody's out, hardens out and beads out, docks fired, Darryl's fire, Like you're you're giving the aggregators nothing to go on here. It's uh, it's really very sad for the aggregators. Um, do we I mean, look, it's it's been choppy to say the least. Uh, the embiid hardened thing, right, Like, they've had some incredibly dominant moments and some some some periods where, especially right after that trade last season, it looked like they were just gonna roll people, and people got carried away with like it's a new age Scheck and Kobe and all this stuff, like, you know, calm down, people. Um, And it didn't go so well in the postseason. Hardened in particular because Harden often doesn't go so well in the postseason kind of a thing for him. Um, And he's been hurt now, and so we don't have a we don't have a massive sample size of these two together. I do still sometimes hear rumblings from other teams like, you know, hey, I'm not so sure those guys really like playing together that much that that's that's still a thing. Um. But I also feel like they haven't played together enough to really work out the rhythm, the chemistry that the feel for each other and and to get on a roll because of injuries and everything else. Um. Obviously his team is still playing without Tyres Maxi too, so you know, but the three games over five dred Like, do you do you get any sense having been around them a bit and having spent a lot of time around that team in general, Um, like, is that partnership solid enough? Like? Is that does everybody feel like that is still the basis for a contender, the hard and embied partnership surrounded by obviously you know, Maxie and a bunch of other really good players. I think so for for one obvious quick answer, and that Darryl's leadership structure has always been predicated on, uh, what are our champions of odds? Like literally looking at what the numbers subject that the team's championship window is, and I don't know the number is, but they seem pretty convinced at it um being that the number is very I I'm getting this wrong, forgive me, but I believe Darryl's m O is that as long as you have a five percent chance of winning the title, you are bonifying contender. And that's obviously very very miniscule odds. So from that standpoint, I think everything is really kosher there. And also I wrote it in my story. I read your own Whitesman's uh kind of mini profile, whatever the feature, whatever the descriptor is on the store on James Harden that came out at Fox Sports this morning, and they had the same thing there that uh sixers. People are super quick to point that their pick and roll uh combination analytically was the number one pairing them all pick and roll combos that did five pick and rolls together last season. And Joel even like sight of that out the top of his head in my story, So I clearly that's a message that they've all kind of bought into. I think also, you know, I tried to write this analogy in the story I wrote in about Sacramento and Darren Fox and Tomato Sabonis coming together, and my editor took it out because he didn't want it to seem like they were saying this that like, to me, the superstar pairings that come from the Houston Rockets tree. Proviously, Daryl was before Houston, where you know Gris and Roses paired de'anel Russell and Karl Anthon Town's together in Minnesota. Monty McNair, general manager in Sacramento, trading for Sabonis to bring with Fox, like this is not Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant locking arms and joining somewhere together in free agency, or Kauai and Paul George coming together the same offseason and Kauai choosing to sign with the Clippers because they're trading for Paul George. Like when two superstars who were advancing in their age, I mean and beat still, you know, writes Smack Davin, middle was prime. It's not the only one anymore, um when they get put together by trade. To me, I think as someone who is moving forward in my personal life partner relationship, and other friends of mine are either behind me or ahead of me in that little like window from pre engagement to engage to like early marriage. Like, I think a lot of things, a lot of things that cripple, particularly men, is the anxiety of the wealth of choices that they theoretically any person has, and like at a certain point you just have to accept if you are choosing this path, that like no one is going to be a perfect fit, and this fit is really great, So let's just like embrace it and pour as much water into it as we can and like help this thing bloom right, So to bring it to an NBA perspective, like or James Harden and Joel embiide cut from the same exact cloth to be this, you know, two puzzle pieces that fit perfectly. I don't know if there is, like even the Kevin Durant Golden's they Worriors, because it's not just by style of play, it's by personality and it's by these people enjoying being co workers and spending you know, it's not just eighty two games a year. You're you're you know, if you're on a five game road trip, you're playing a game and then flying out that night and checking into a hotel at three am and waking up at nine, you go to shoot around like it's a long season, with a lot of time around each other. So I say all this to say, my my, my strong sense is that these two guys clearly look at each other as they're they're obvious best pieces right now in this that was available to them to go get a championship together. So I think that is clearly the crystallized overarching goal of this group. Um. And you know, if we ever get to a point where that it is proven to be not their ultimate ceiling will read I think everyone will readdress it. But for now, I think also the team not being healthy, we're in bed and Harden and entires, Maxie still being out, have all miss significant time. They're also maybe not using that as an excuse, but it seems that they're using their looking at that as a reason for optimism. That we haven't exactly reached our our our our maximum capacity here. So I think the confidence is high that they will that that they're still a work in progress, and that the fit within Bid and Harden will continue to progress as they get more and more time together. Um. And and that's I think they've still only played under a full regular season games worth of games together in their entire partnerships, so they're still learning each other out. They're still figuring out how to you know, a little pocket pass here, the timing on this, or the timing on that. So I think they're all viewing it as something that's still maybe maybe if it is still a work in progress, that like, it's still good and things are flowing and the vibes are good to say the least. I think what NBA listeners are fans are listening to this podcasts are learning now is that um, when they think about stars and commitment issues and everything, as you alluded, to. They're now probably wondering too, like, wait, is it is this about Joel Embiid and James Harder's Does Jake Fisher have commitment issues? Is that what we're finding out on this podcast? Kind of sounds it sounds like maybe you know, you're projecting a little bit. I don't did I did for so? But but Harden's actually really like it's a great analogy. Listen. It's funny because we always use the term honeymoon, right all this team, these stars are in a honeymoon after this trade. At least this this star and this this team is in a honeymoon period. We all we like we we throw around the the kind of the the marriage and commitment kind of uh, you know, verbage analogies with sports all the time. Anyway, and Hardened, let's face it, I mean the guys like a five time divorce or something. It was Harden and Dwight Howard Harden and Chris Paul Harden and Russell Westbrook now Hardened James Harden and Joel Embiid like, um, he spent his whole career having the rankyrierving he skipped on ye yeah, well yeah, uh, and that it was like five minutes. That's easy to forget that was his Um, oh god, I don't even want to say it. I was thinking of a celebrity marriage that only lasted twenty days and I just don't want to go there. Um it was one of those Um yeah, No, Harden has gone through his share of co stars, to say the least, maybe more than anybody in the course of the first you know, ten years of their career. Um, and then yeah, if this one doesn't work, that's pretty much it. Like, I don't I don't know that James Harden is getting another like and Bead will get a new uh co star of some sort if it doesn't work out. But but Hard and like this is kind of the last shot for him. I feel like, um, that's a quick quick point to to kind of sum up everything we've talked about and the sixth pers and I think and beat himself true. I think they truly are hoping that Tyrans Maxie will become that guy and once hardon exit stage left and maybe to buyas Harris his contract comes out the books at a certain point in time, like there will be this kind of changing of the guard where and and then maybe at a certain point in time and beat even takes a step back, and he's the supporting tast tires Like, I think they are confident or at least hopeful that they have the pieces in place to continue to navigate this thing forward. And they've got Joel Morris GM, which means we know they will always be incredibly aggressive for new opportunities along the way. So December fifteenth, we mentioned, is when the NBA officially, non officially opens trade season. By the way, this didn't used to be a thing like if you I don't know if you would use like just Google search for this, Google trends or something, But the idea of NBA trade season, we just created this out of thin air. Within the last i'd say four or five years, UM, there's always been dates at which players who were signed over the summer or signed certain kinds of contracts can can be traded. Officially, it was never trade season. We never actually like said this is when it all starts. And now we have you know, Bobby Marks at ESPN does obviously phenomenal job and all these things. On the one hand, tweeting of the league is now trade eligible UM, and seventy four players in in particular, according to Bobby, became traded on the fifte Um. But then Bobby is also the one turning around and saying, but by the way, everybody reminder, um, doesn't mean that we're gonna have some flood of deals on December fifteenth. That almost never happens. In fact, we're not gonna probably have a flood of deals or a lot of much activity between now and February, probably because it just doesn't work that way. There is no trade season. There's just simply the time at which more players are eligible. So yes, it's easier to make a deal now there are more deals to be potentially made. But you know, we don't know, No one knows when to this will start to sort out. But so let's just start with this real quick though. Um. The Warriors obviously off to an incredibly bumpy start to their title defense. Very strange season for them. Anyway, Steph is now out for a matter of some weeks. We don't know how many how many games he'll miss. They're already flirting with disaster. They can't win on the road. Um, in the context of this being the unofficial official trade season, what do you think this does to the Warriors outlook and the you know, look the the growing discussion, and it's been there in the background for a while, and I think it comes to the foreground now of well, at what point do you see what you can get for Wiseman, Kominga, Moody whoever, some combination thereof future picks, Like they do have some things they can some some assets they can use if they need to to fortify themselves in the short term. There's no replacing Steph Curry. Duh um. But I don't know that you want to go to three or maybe more than that week's um with with just Jordan's pool. You're your other young guys who are still kind of a work in progress, and then a Clay Thompson with a lot of miles, and and who's being rested on the second night of back to backs, and Draymond who's got a lot of miles. Like I just, I don't know how sustainable it is. I don't know there's a trade to fix that. But what do you think that the injury does to their outlook? Um in the trade market. To be clear, I haven't talked to anyone the Golden State since the injury news. Uh um. Happened, But I mean I was on the phone with someone from Golden State literally like a couple of hours before he got hurt. And um, I think a lot of teams right now in that middle tier the pack of both conferences are looking at everyone being bunched up as further reasoning to kick the can down the road at their own internal evaluation, like we still have to figure out like how good we are blah blah blah. To me, I've been saying this on a couple things I've done. Now to me, that's bullshit, Like, sure, maybe you have to figure out how good you are in relation to everybody else. But after games, Like if I'm sitting here on my couch looking at the league past schedule of what games I can watch, and I know, all right, the Rockets play this way, the Hornets play this way, the Nets play this way, and I'm kind of like done my early season phase of like, oh, I want to see what this team is up to. Like the people are getting paid upwards of millions of dollars to evaluate their own tea have to have a strong sense of what they think their weaknesses are, what their strengths are, Right, So I don't. I think that's more of an excuse that a lot of front officers are using to kind of hold their cards close to the vest here With Golden State, I think they're bigger issues have been the veteran pieces that they've been able to plug it in, dating back to David West, like Ja Michael Green has not been what they were hoping he would be. Donte DiVincenzo has been in and out of the lineup. He's been streaking, like losing Gary Peyton and losing out of border Um and even the mon ab E leads that threw into great minutes for them in the finals. Like that, I think has been more of what I've heard Warriors people looking at the positions to address rather than some type of big swing. So I don't know if this Steph injury does change things. I wish that my Jordan Pool story that I dropped like a week ago about how could he be the guy this bridge that they were hoping James Wiseman could be um a fresh to save that for a week, to put that out now, that would have been good timing. I'm a big Jordan Pool believer. I spent a lot of time with him in Sacramento. UM, and the kids just sharp. Like I feel like I have had whatever monica of success I've had in this industry by like looking at people like yourself and Lee Jenkins and Mark Stein and and just looking at the work and like the details you've gotten in your stories and thinking back, well, what question did you ask to get that information? How did you get that sit down with that person? Like I think when people want to be successful in a competitive environment, I think it's the only way to be smart about being successful is to act stupid and try to come from a place of ignorance and truly like I'm uninformed, how do I learn? That's how Pool approaches his craft by asking step and these guys questions. So I am curious now to see if this is an opportunity for him to back up what I wrote. But outside of that, UM, I don't think there's a big cause of panic there. UM, and I think they're still kind of like, all right, we're Golden State, like we're we don't we don't stress ourselves out too too much. So we'll see, we'll see if I mean we're gonna go to h the words always show out to showcase Santa Cruz is one of the bigger G League UH outfits throughout you know league history of competition and having a good unit out there, so they'll they'll they'll be out there fully staffed. I'll be curious if that if that tone has changed now that he's out at least two weeks. Like I had only heard that he was definitely missing the New York games. So now that he's out at least two weeks, that's a big because the standards are so bunched, they could fall pretty quickly here depending on how things go. Yeah, but because the things are so bunched, and you know, maybe nothing knocks them out either, right, you know, there there's this is this is a really at the moment, this is a very forgiving season. And I wrote about, you know, the just the the unprecedented aspect of NBA parody recently, and I feel like that's going to have, as you alluded to, possibly a chilling effect on the trade market, because if everybody thinks they're in, then there's no sellers. You know, teams are gonna I wrote that based on the quarter mark of the season, we're now closer to what our buddy Mark Stein calls the first trimester. Mark, Um, so we are. We are through the first trimester of the season. We were a third of the way in to your point, yes, I agree, teams know who they are by now. You may not know exactly where you're gonna land in the standings at the end because things are so weirdly bunched up this season, but you kind of know what you got and what you don't have, and whether you're comfortable with the players you have and the way that they work together. So like I I'm very curious to see how this goes, and I do think, you know, maybe there will be some separation in the standings in the in the weeks to come here and by mid January, maybe there is more clarity and thus more sellers. But with the Warriors in particular, even before Steph went down, like obviously they're having some issues this season. Obviously they have some depth problems, some bench problems. Obviously they are missing what they got from Gary Payton the second and Otto Porter Jr. Like you know, I've I've I have thought since before these players were players, they were just only picks and a glimmer in the Warriors, I I've always thought they should trade the picks that became all these guys to get immediate help, because that's the way I always look at these things. If you've got Steph Curry, I you've got Lebron James, if you've got an all time great, if you've got Kevin durd You're you're just all in all times. And so I am curious to see now, not just because of Steph's injury, No one trade is gonna fix that, but to the extent that they were going to have a lot of ground to make up, and they need help, and they need veteran help. I think I just I very, very curious to see whether this means they eventually said, you know what, who's got the most value, probably cominga of of the young guys. Weiseman. It's it's a it's a tough deal right now, and you know, Moody has been up and down. I'm just very curious to see if it's either Comminge is now good enough to play big minutes night and night out, or is it he's he's the key to getting us the kind of veter help that we're missing right now. Yeah, I just think from the draft that was draft, I remember they had two picks, um, And I remember there just wasn't anything out there. Like I remember there was some talk about LaMarcus Aldridge at the time, and like when the Calves had a number one pick in the draft, you know, seven years earlier, they were thinking about trading for the market, Like he wasn't the same, it wasn't worth the number two pick. And you know when they had seven and fourteen or yeah, they had one pick in that draft and two picks later. Um, Like They're just there wasn't enough. Even Portland was looking at trying to figure out what to use that seventh pick this year. Um, that becoming shade and sharp. They're just there haven't been players that are just for forever reason that I had been available, that have been quote unquote worth those high lottery picks these last couple of years. And also I don't know how many teams are willing to have their superstar and just give frapped them over to Golden State. Like there was all that talk about Bradley beal Um and leading his on dract extension last summer, Like would the Wizards have wanted to watch Bradley beale go become the perfect you know, final finishing piece that extend this next amazing Aeran Gold and State. Probably not. Probably not U. On the other hand, UM, they haven't exactly done anything good with Bradley Beale, so I'm not sure they should be worried about what anybody else is doing. UM, I will say, so great piece on Jordan Pool. This is what you do now. By the way, this is when you say to your editors, Hey, you know what, um that Jordan Pool piece. We we got a nice run. It was great. You know, I was really proud of that story. But you know he's never been more relevant than right now. We should push that thing back up to the top of the stack on the on the page. You know, we should feature that again, you know, like it's still relevant, still fresh. You know, nothing's changed except that he's just got a bigger role. Now. We should push that back up. So you gotta do. You gotta lobby the editors to like bring back the the story that now has added resonance. It'll it'll get like that's that's an extra like twenty reads if that comes out today. That is why I call you the professor. You know, all the tricks of the trade. UM, I do think like Jordan Pools. Some of his best moments last season were when he just got free reign right, Like, there have been times where it's the Jordan pool Show and I think, I mean, the kids got a just an amazing amount of confidence. He's just bursting with confidence. He does have a swagger to him that at times feels like maybe disproportionate to his actual production on a given night. And there are times where it seems like like the swagger is is is you know, a little out ahead of him. But there are times he totally lives up to it, and he he seems to love big moments and he's hit some clutch shots for them. Like I'm not saying they're gonna be just fine without staff, that would be ludicrous. I do think that Jordan pool Um is going to like I think, I think he's going to welcome the load and the responsibility the next couple of weeks, and I think that they'll be okay because of that. But it's you know that also just means now you're you're down one more you know, guy off the bench or you know whatever. I know he's been starting recently and I'm one of the greatest players of all time. Yeah, just just one of the greatest players of all time, No big deal. Um, alright, so broadly then on the trade market, Um, just a couple of quick hitters here, or or quick ish hitters anyway. Um, is there any one team or player that you think is driving this thing right now? In other words, is there a lynchpin to the whole thing? We've been, you know, obsessed with what the Lakers might do with Westbrook now, mixed signals about whether he you know, they would even trade Like I don't buy any of that, by the way, Like the Lakers are constantly putting out like these signals like, oh no, we actually love having Westbrook, Like if you could trade him for something, you know, multiple players that are more helpful, I I I think they'd still do that. But whatever, Um is it about Westbrook and the Lakers and whether they're going to finally do something? There is it about? Um? The Hawks? And it's it's always John Collins. But it feels like the Hawks just have a whole thing, so they've got to address The Hawks are are kind of a mess right now. Um. Is it about the Pacers, whether or not they think they're actually going to be weirdly competitive with their young crew, and hey, now now we want to keep healed. In turner, like, who's you know, is it the the Jay Crowder thing, which continues to be the most one of more puzzling um situations in the league. Who's who is there anyone key to unlocked trade season in terms of a player or team? Yeah, it's a good breakdown, I think. Like to me, I tend to look at each of these transaction cycles, whether it's the trade deadline or the draft and free agency um as like there is like a there's more of like an inner vortex that will spin out and everything. So what you're what everything you touched on there? The Lakers, the Sons, Atlanta, New York, and Houston. That kind of seems like the big center of this whole, you know, glut of inactivity right now. You could throw Detroit in there too, where teams are looking at Boon Bogdanovitch and the Pistons are definitely playing a bit of hardball right now. It sounds like in terms of what their value evation of him is and how much they value him in what they're building. Um, that's kind of the the center of I mean clearly everyone else is talking, but those are the teams that come up the most. Um. I think there's there's definitely bigger fish out there that I'm a going to make more calls on today, and I'm armed with going into showcase and want to ask people about um. But in terms of like the stuff that's really happening on the ground, the calls that are being made right now, and things that have sounded more like legitimate rather than just early. It's funny like you'll talk to certain executives and they just think that a team calling them and pitching an idea is like a nothing burger, which I guess it is in the theory, But like for us and for fans trying to figure out where these teams heads are at, like any idea that is thrown across a phone line is is a data point to understand where that front office is working from. So like the fact that Atlanta it keeps looking at Utah as a landing spot for John Collins and then potentially as a team to rope in for a three way structure to get Jay crowd, or like I don't necessarily care if that wasn't like a like someone could look at that and say, well, that wasn't a real thing. That wasn't like we didn't talk a three team trade. But if one of those teams is pitching that idea like that, to me is noteworthy. So I do think that we need one of those things. That's typically how this market shapes up. There needs to be a domino to fall before everyone who is looking at themselves in the standings and saying, you know, I don't know how good we are. A lot of that come down to there are very few executives who, in truth can just make a deal independent of worrying about their status or what their reputation will be. In this economy where it's not just the aggregational world where now you know, executives have a scorecard and and you know a reputation amongst even you know, every single blog out there who won the deal. I think there is reticence for executives to be the first one to set the market. So to me, it does feel like we'll get either a Jay Crowder trade or you know something with Atlanta. The Knicks are repeatedly mentioned as the most active team calling around trying to find a home for four n A Derek Rose Immanuel quickly Cam Reddish. So if that feels to anyone listening, if that feels like every article you're reading about the unofficial trade season centers around those people, that vortex, if you will, is certainly I think the stuff that's closest to getting done. It might not happen until February to your point, Howard, but that's the stuff I think that's the closest to getting done. Um, that will potentially have ripple effects moving forward. Yeah, it's interesting because the Knicks cheddar is not involving Randall anymore. And it was either early in the season or maybe it was late in the preseason, sometime in October, I think when when you know, folks I had talked to were basically saying, like, you know, this is this is the one to watch, Like the Knicks want to get off of Julius Randall, and maybe the fact that you know, for all of his flaws, he's still kind of their engine on a lot of nights. Um, every night Nick Juis Randall's playing, Well, that's pretty much it. Um. So it's interesting that he's kind of fallen out of that discussion. Um. I feel like we should still keep an eye on it somehow, because I don't. I always look at as the long term, right, and the Knicks have been very short term thinking lately, I believe. But in the long term, like all right, it's Julius Randall, the guy who's going to you know, lead you back to prominence. Probably not um so, uh it would that so that that didn't surprise me when I heard about him being mentioned earlier in the season. Now that that things have have kind of progressed to where they are, it seems like that's fallen away. But I don't know. I was still keeping eye on that. This is my my general rule of them about quote unquote trade season and the trade deadline. We have a list we just mentioned that you and I just named, like all the likely suspects Crowder, Agdanovitch, Petl who you wrote about recently, John Collins, Buddy Healed, Uh, Miles Turner, all the Nicks that you mentioned. Um. Most years, what happens is that none of the guys were talking about get traded, or maybe one of them does, and then the biggest deal is the one that nobody saw coming. So I'm gonna ask you a self negating contradictory might open a rift in the space time continuum question, given that every year there's a big trade that we don't actually see coming, who's it going to be, Jake Fisher, Who's the guy that we're not talking about that is going to actually be the one that on February whichever date I didn't look up the trade deadline date, um that on that date we're gonna go like, oh, holy crap, that guy just got traded. How did we not see that coming? Who's the guy that we didn't see coming that you're gonna see coming? And and and I apologized to everybody if we do open a rift in the spacetime Continuing with this question, I'm gonna give a temperate answer as I am wanted to do, and that I'll say this, Like Chicago, couple of weeks back, everyone was like, oh, the bulls, they're terrible, like look at them to be a seller. And then now, I mean I wrote about them, and I mean teams are still thinking, oh yeah, that could be a seller. But there's also plenty of talk that they have no interest in selling right now. I mean, maybe they'll do some things to retool and maybe move off Utrovich or something like that, but I am skeptical that they're just going to be doing a fire sale and you'll see Alex Caruso and Barter Rosen and all those people heading out the door. Toronto is the team that I think rivals are looking at that things aren't obviously going super smoothly. UM. I saw there as an article today by uh UM. I forgot honestly that someone saying this is on Nick Nurse to UH to figure this out. Um. They've got a lot of players that have been um apples of people's eyes of recent transaction cycles where I had something with the Knicks recently telling me, you know, we should have gone after Fred van Bileet the year we didn't like we should have said that at the time. I'm on record I said at the time. I also said it to some people I knew with the Knicks at the time, like, why aren't you guys chasing this guy? He's perfect, He's a two way player, great character guy. You know whatever. UM, so continue, you're good. So you've got Fred, You've got Gary Trent whose contract is coming up, and O G who's playing out of his mind, who um definitely will want to get paid or his representation will definitely want him to get paid that. You know, that's the type of stuff that starts to draw trade activity, where a team starts to get word of the number that uh they think their player wants and maybe they're not gonna want to to to foot that bill. So I'm not saying that all three of those guys are one of those guys are going to get moved, But I just I've been struck by how many people from other teams are looking at Toronto and saying that unlike Chicago, where maybe they will be um, they'll have pause because the Bulls won six championships with Michael Jordan's and they just are happy to make the playoffs that don't necessarily need to be racing championships like other teams, and they just like to be a relevant playoffs. I don't know if that's the actual thinking there, but that's what people say. Um. Whereas Toronto has and Massia and Bobby Webster extra and clear uh clear abilities to just swing for the fences trade for you know, Kauai make big moves um in terms of the sign trade with Kyle Arry, like, I wouldn't be shocked if the Raptors are still kind of in this muck of seven eight nine in the East, and they decide we can either package a couple of our guys to go get someone, or we can trade someone to move. That's that fits more of a Scotty Barnes timeline like that. I don't know what they're wear their heads at, I'll say that candidly, but they're just a team that has made big moves in the past, that has a lot of players on it that a lot of teams would be interested in, on interesting sal is that are very movable that I think is just something to keep an eye on for sure. Yeah. And and the Raptors to your point, I mean, like there that's a franchise without sentimentality, right when you trade to Marta Rosen for KOHI let like they they're not worried about sentimentality. They're not worried about like, you know, whatever loyalties, any any quaint ideas about any of this stuff. It's it's it's kind of that Danny Ainge kind of um, you know, ruthlessness that Messiah and Bobby Webster have too. And so I think and they could go either direction, they really could. They they have that advantage with a lot of young players and a lot of guys on movable salaries, um that if you know, and I don't think they'd be afraid to take a step back either if they thought that was there the best long term play. The Bulls are are funny because I mean, I think everybody had mixed feelings about it in the beginning, right just just the general commentary. It's, you know, when they made the deal for Vuchevich, like what do you you know? This is your win now move? This is like they're so desperate to be relevant in the playoff team again, and like that, there's still I don't want to say the jury is out on that deal. I think Orlando won that deal, um frankly, but the Bulls got what they wanted, right they that was the first step toward becoming quote unquote relevant again. And then they go out and they get the rosen And but there was a very low ceiling on everything that they just did over the last two years. But as you said Jake earlier, like conversations that don't lead to trades, even if they're just ideas, it gives us some insight into the thinking and philosophy of a franchise, so does moves like that. They had to know that there's a low ceiling on the you know, trade Windle Carter Jr. And picks them, everything else that went into getting Vos going and getting an older to mart like. They know that that that's not some long term play and that it's not even a play that puts them in title contention. What does that tell us? It tells us that they really, really badly just wanted to be in the playoffs. Again. It's just fine, you know, That's okay. It's coming at a pretty steep cost, I think in terms of the assets they've sent out, and it's a short term bump and I don't know where it eats too. I don't know if it's the best idea, um, but I get it. And every franchise you know, So it's it's always easy for us to do the and I've done it myself recently. I try not to do these too often. The blow it all up, take right, the bullshit, just blow it up. This thing is going nowhere anyway, Yeah, totally fair. Take easier for us to say than for them to do. You've got tickets to sell and fans who you know, have bought tickets and an owner who probably wants to make the playoffs and all the other stuff that goes into it. So people are playing Jenga, you can just be the five year old who walks up and blacks the whole tower. App that's the that's the that's by far the best Jenga player role is to be the person who just destroys it. Like that's more fun as a as a as a very serious Jenga player. I I vehemently disagree, but I haven't spent a lot of Jenga time. Maybe I needed to work that into my my my repertoire. Are you good at that great bargain a great bar game while you're drunk or getting drunk? Um you've got you have like uncommonly steady hands while drinking? Is that the thing? I think I have uncommonly steady hand? But really is showing a lot about my personality here? Maybe going a little too deep. Yeah, I'm bringing when I was a little kid, and um, when you'll be playing a board game and like your mom or your friend's mom will come in and say you gotta take this to a different room. Like I would be the one who would like carry the board with all the pieces and like, I don't know, I got there the entire monopoly board with like the little dog and the thimble and the race car, everything, all the houses, all the hotels, all the cash, and you get that to the other room and nothing has fallen off the board. That was my like seven year old party trick. Yeah. Wow, that's good stuff. That's great. Along the way, like, could you tilt it just slightly so that now all of a sudden, you know, the persons on boardwalk with the hotels on it? Could you just no? Because I think that's part of the that's part of the craft. You need to be in santity of the game. So well, I I should expect nothing less of a young Jake Fisher because you do things to the highest quality and the highest principles. So I appreciate that consistency. Uh some people would disagree, but yeah, that's wrong, that's aspective. So yeah. Uh, speaking of which, check out all of Jake's work of course, uh A Yahoo's Sports, um, his uh, his book still out there, Bill to Lose, how the NBA is taking You're a change the league forever. Go pick up that if you missed it the first time? Is that in paperback? Now now on paperback? I'd be I really would be afraid to see the number of paperbacks copies sold. So um, yeah, you're listening. Help a brother out. Still still trying to pick up Christmas Hanuker presence whatever else, folks. Uh and of course he's got the Please don't aggregate this podcast. Uh. Please don't aggregate this podcast either. You're at it. Uh hggregators. Uh. Jake, great stuff, man, appreciate it. Uh, enjoy your kitchenetts in the undisclosed location. I'll let you get to shoot a round of an undisclosed team. Thanks so much, Take care man. Okay, that's it for today's show. My thanks again to Jake Fisher, thanks to our producer Shelby Royston, and thank you all for listening. Remember you can hear Chris Mannix and me every Tuesday on the Crossover with all the latest NBA chatter, and then on Friday's It's Me and a Guest. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Crossover wherever you get your podcasts, and hit me with your feedback on Twitter at Howard Beck