They are Sports Illustrated, this incredible body of horror. I really appreciate the integrity. Everything you do is well done. You'd thank You's Chris Mannix. He's employed by Sports Illustrated. The announcer's got it inform me. Hey, yeah, this is the Crossover NBA podcast. You're a problem with it? Build a team that can beat them. Hosted by the one and Old God, Thank God, Chris Mannix. Welcome back to another episode of Open Floor Slash the Crossover. I'm Rohannogren. He joined today by not one, but two Sports Illustrated senior writers. First, the star of Creed three, Chris Mannix is here, as well as the New York Times best selling author of the book Blood in the Garden, and Spike Lee's close personal friend Chris Herring is here as well. A little anuncement before we start the show, just some housekeeping news here, I guess you could call it, but we are going to be merging the Open Floor and Crossover feeds essentially, So if you're listening to this on the Open Floor podcast, please subscribe to the Crossover. Our podcasts are gonna be moving over there. Don't worry, You're still gonna hear from myself inhering on a weekly basis, You're just gonna be hearing it on the crossover feeds, So make sure you subscribe to the Crossover. We'll have to make sure we get the logo change just so it doesn't say only Mannix his name on there. No no no no no no no no no no, I'm territorial. You guys can have like on like it's like the back of an album cover, right like you get you get like a producer credit on that. I do like the intro, though, Rohan, You've got a New York Times best selling author, a recent star of a major movie, collaborating with a guy that just did to his parents' basements. First of all, there are no there are no basements in Florida. So let's just let's get that sort of right there. Um, is it my parents home? Maybe? Is there a basement? Absolutely not. Do I wish I was podcasting from my parents' basement as God intended? Certainly? Um, but we'll have to wait to do that. Life goals an, it would be you have like several homes around the country, you know, it would be nice if you could just open your doors up to a co worker. I don't know if you've considered that. Uh well, if I owned a home in South Florida, where you seem determined to migrate to become the beat writer for Heat dot com, then then maybe if I did. But I am not a Florida guy as of yet. I see well, I will continue to be hiding out in my tax shelter um in South Florida, and I'll wait for you to uh, you know, for you to buy one of your several homes here. Oh this is so off the rails. He's the one that started. He told us that he was hid in his parents basement proverbial basement. So I can't let that go without bringing it up. I didn't even have to say anything. I logged on to the zoom and it was already being discussed. But I digress. We have a lot to get to today. Herring is right, guys. I want to start with the Dallas Mavericks. I thought there's some interesting comments from Jason Kidd earlier this week. The MAVs have lost three in a row. Luca Donch is currently dealing with an injury. He's missing time. Overall, I'd say the early returns with Kyrie Irving have been mixed. The defense surprisingly not very good, the offense also not surprisingly very good. Jason Kidd, I'm paraphrasing a bit here, but essentially saying, over the weekend, if we have injuries, it's not the end of the world. Nobody's dying, but if we're healthy, we'll be fine. Just very strange comments from a coach in general, Mannix, I'll start with you. You're just your general kind of sense of the Mavericks right now. I think they obviously made this move to be a contender. They've they've fallen down in the standings. What are your kind of early returns on this Kyrie experiment for Dallas, Well, it hasn't been great. The numbers bear that out six and nine since the trade three and six with both guys in the lineup. Doesn't sound like Kyrie Irving is going to be back on Wednesday night either. So they've had problems keeping these two guys on the floor together or getting them on the floor together. And when they are on the floor, the results haven't been great. Now the optimist could say that they've lost a handful of games by a handful of points. So and they were having some growing pains with this group early on, but then don't lie. I mean since the trade deadline, Dallas is twenty fifth in defensive rating. They are twenty fifth in opponent's points per game. They are thirtieth in opponent field goal percentage. They don't defend anybody, and that's not going to improve over time. You know, Kyrie is a below average defender. Luca, because of his size, can at times be average, but he doesn't always give one hundred percent on that end of the floor. Christian Wood is not some defensive backstop in the middle. Everybody keeps talking about, you know, Maxi Kleiber coming back, and Maxi Kleiber is a good player, a good defensive player, but he's not Dikembe Mtumbo out there. So they are a team with a higher ceiling than they've shown offensively because of what those two guys were able to do when they play together. But this is who they are. Defensively. They are in every meaningful way a bottom third of the NBA defensive team, and without a major roster overhaul, I don't see that changing herring. What do you think, man expansion Cleber who he's right? I mean when he plays the five. It kind of unlocks them a bit defensively. There were times last year, especially the second half last season, where they were very good, but it is a lot to ask him to kind of be their top defensive guy, the guy who kind of changes everything for them on that end of the floor. Do you see a fix on the roster herring? Is is there a way for them to kind of improve from with it? They had their way to improve from within when they decided to let Jillan Brunson walk. It was a guy that by no means had he necessarily maxed out as far as you know, his his skill. He's a relatively young guy still even though he played, you know it, didn't leave college extremely early or anything like that. So this is something where now they could have maybe just kept that roster together and kept the cohesion, they would have paid more. But the flip side of that is that when they looked at their best last year, when they surprised all of us and were like a top ten defensive team last year and really put stops together, had to come back against Phoenix to win that series, it was because they started to really really dig in and defend even Luca to some extent, you had Dorian Phinney Smith, you had more guys that were capable of defending, and frankly, you you you traded some of that away to go try to replace some of what you lost in Brunson. And you know the truth as you probably got someone that individually is a more skilled player than Brunson, but doesn't have any real knowledge of what the systems were before. Defensively, and even if he did, it just isn't as good a defender. Is not as physical as Brunson is. Is you know, granted Brunson has been out too, but generally speaking, is not as durable as Jillen Brunson is. And you gave up one of your better defenders to go get Kyrie Irving. So I mean, you said it yourself, Ron, it's unsurprising that they're bad on defense. I think most of us had questions about this trade when it happened for exactly that reason. So at this point, you know, like Jason Kidd said, like, it's not the end of the world. I guess not. But at this point you just kind of feel like this has to be a team that leans into their offense, which is why it's so curious and kind of strange that on some level Christian Wood has twenty minute nights fifteen minute nights, and you know, people have asked Jason Kidd why, and he's like, oh, we've got so much depth, No you don't. He might as well just lean in and trying to be an offensive juggernaut when you have everybody healthy, because this is not going to be a team that gets stop after stop after stop. I was surprised that they did that last year and that they had that ability last year, but they certainly don't have that this year. Yeah, the Jason Kidd aspect here is interesting to me. He obviously had that quote earlier in the season when he said, I'm just like you guys, I'm watching what's happening on the floor, and you know, we obviously don't see what he's doing behind closed doors. But it's kind of a very interesting public tack for him to take, where he he seems to kind of wash his hands of all the team's problems, as if he is very little to do with what's happening there, and I just him getting hired in Dallas, by the way, is one of the weirdest stories to me in the NBA. That's happened the last couple of years that no one talks about. When Rick Carlile, on his way at the door said, by the way, hired Jason Kidd. I don't remember anything like that ever happening in the last fifteen to twenty years or even longer. Frankly, a coach resigning and basically saying, well, by the way, here's the guy who should replace him, and it was it's just a strange situation, has been strange. You remember he retired, had he even officially retired, maybe he'd retired for a week and a half when he got hired by the Nets. So there was that aspect of it, and then the fact that he was flirting with the Bucks and the power off stuff, and I will never forget woll just tweet of like Jason Kidd has done in Brooklyn, and it's so read like I don't know, I don't want to throw stereotypes out there, but it sounded like it portended more than just the idea of it sounded more like life and death than it did basketball and a coaching job and anything like that. And then even on his way out in Milwaukee that there was that thing where didn't Kid reportedly call Yannis and like tell him it was happening, and Jannis was trying to figure out whether you should like call an intervene and then this it's just been really strange. Um. You know, he had a good first season there, unexpectedly good, but I don't know when they lost Brunson alone. My first thought was that Luca might break usage records, which doesn't necessarily seem like a good thing when you're trying to contend for a title. So we'll see where it goes. But Kyrie didn't really seem like the ideal fit either. That said, could they catch lightning in a bottle offensively and win around maybe two rounds? They could. I don't expect it, but they absolutely could, And you know, maybe that's the best you can really ask for with this group, I would say too. I would say this too about Jason Kidd. I do think he has grown a lot as a coach in the last what seven eight years he's been in that rags. I mean, the next situation was bad. They never should have hired him in the first place. He had like diet coke gate, when he intentionally spent that that drink to get an extra time out. It was there was a lot of goofiness that went on there behind the scenes too. He was better in Milwaukee, if we're being honest, Like he was influential in developing Yannis, Like he put the ball in his hands and said, you're going to be kind of a point forward, and he helped expand his game to part of where it is now. They made the right call letting him go. Boutenholzer was the right choice there. But Jason goes to Los Angeles and everything's gonna submarine Frank Vogel, they turned out to be as close as as two coaches possibly can be. I mean, they're still thick as thieves right now. And then like in Dallas, like there's a reason they brought him in. They wanted him to connect with Luca and a big guard connecting with a big guard, and he was good last year. And look, I don't mind the stuff he's saying now because look I experienced Emayudoka last year where Emayudoka was just insulting his team like every fifteen minutes in the first two months of the season. I'm getting some of those vibes off Jason Kidd, right, now where he's trying to shame some of these guys into playing differently and playing better because nothing else is working. If you're I mean, if you're gonna make a pie chart of why the MAVs are in the position that they're in, it's the front office and it's decisions that they've made. They they didn't extend Jalen Brunson to go back into Wikipedia, you know, last year early on, when they could have for fifty five millions and then they could have broken the bank to give him a max contract to keep him and Dallas, and they decided not to do that. That put them in the position they were in in the first half of the season. It forced them to make a deal that maybe they wouldn't have otherwise. This is all ownership front office decisions that have left the Mavericks in this pickle. And look, as we kind of spin it forward, I don't know if they have any choice but to offer Kyrie Irving a big contract. I mean, they gave up a first round pick for him, They gave up Dorian Finney Smith. They can't make a deal with the assets that they have left to get anybody substantive on that roster. I mean, you're approaching that two year mark on Luca don Che's contract, and that is kind of the I mean nowadays. I mean Kevin Durant asked, asked out without have him playing a minute on his new contract. But that's kind of that line of demarcation for guys, you know, mentioning or you know, at least nudging teams that they might want to go in a different direction. The Mavericks have no choice here, they don't. They've got to give Kyrie Irving whatever he wants and then we'll see what happens. Let the ships fall where they may. With Kyrie him, because I've talked to people in Dallas. He has been great in the locker room, great with his teammates, great with the coaches so far. But yeah, you had that weird video he posted where he's going after everybody's ever criticized him, like ever, you know, little tiny signs that you know, the Kyrie of Cleveland, Boston, Brooklyn is still very much within him, and that that stuff like that drives me crazy because Kyrie is like, you guys don't know me. You only know me for three hours a night. No, of course we know you, like we know that you asked out of Cleveland a championship situation with two years left them to contract. We know that you couldn't get along with the young players in Boston and that was part of the reason the Celtics detonated. We know that you were a pain in the butt frankly in Brooklyn and that led to the breakup of that team. So I mean, we know you asked out when the team was eighteen and two with its best player, and you playing together in the last twenty games. We know who Kyrie is as a basketball player. I don't pretend to know him as a human, but we know who he is as a basketball player, and that is someone Dallas is likely going to have to take a massive risk on this coming summer. Yeah, that is an interesting question, Mannis, and I'm glad you address it because I wanted to ask you about it. And Harry, I guess I'll ask you because I think a classic mistake made by NBA organizations is you make a bad move and then you kind of make a second bad move doubling down on the first one. Right you as a man ex mentioned they gave up these assets for Kyrie, which would lend them to do something like extending him in the offseason. But if I'm Dallas personally, I think you have to think about all the things that Manics just talked about, all the ways Kyrie submarine his previous organizations, And let's say Dallas loses in the first round, do you definitely bring back Kyrie because do you double down on that quote unquote. I don't know if it's a mistake necessarily, but do you double down on that move just because of the assets you've already given up, or do you say, hey, this didn't work out. We got to try to find a way to reset things here. Because I understand Mannix is reasoning, when front offices give up that much, typically that means you have to resign that player. You have to do something to keep them around, even if just trade them in the future, etc. But if I'm Dallas, as you mentioned, considering Lucas contract is coming up and you have to delicately handle these next couple of years herring if you're in their position, or are you like, is there a world in which you don't resign Kyrie this summer? I think there potentially is, for sure. I mean, I think the other thing we need to think about too, is I've never put it past Kyrie Irving, or maybe I did at one point, but certainly not lately, to just torpedo a situation. So they're gonna be in the playoffs in some shape or form. What does that look like with Luca? Does Luca fundamentally enjoy this process of playing with him? Generally speaking, stars like playing together. If it is a disaster that everybody can see, it really might not be in the best interests of the organization if lucas not enjoying it or doesn't like the way it looks, or doesn't like the flow of what they've got offensively, doesn't see a realm in which they can defend defensively with those two I'm not used to players having that sort of foresight. You know, everybody was wondering about kind of the dissonance between like what Clippers fans wanted and what the Clippers star players wanted with the Russell Westbrook thing, someone that hasn't had success in the playoffs and years at this point, So I, you know, I have to kind of see where Luca fits on that spectrum. He obviously seemed supportive of the idea of going out to get him. Now, if there's any sense whatsoever that Luca's not in love with the idea of bringing him on and signing him to what would be a long term deal, I imagine that they might not be gung ho about that. I could also imagine that anything Kyrie signs, unless there's stiff competition to sign him, which we all hear the Lakers, Lakers, Lakers repeatedly, I could imagine that whatever he signs going forward is going to be really heavily incentive based, or that what's going to be offered him is going to be heavily incentive based, just because look, we can talk about Zion and his incentive based contract. His is more from an injury standpoint. Kyrie's is like, it could be any number of things as to why he decides not to play, or not to give his best effort, not to be out there, what have you. So I couldn't tell you what the MAVs are going to do, but I also couldn't blame them if they decide. Look, this was a hail mary effort for this year. We wanted to try to win this year. No, we're not going to make this a sunk cost sort of thing. And keep doubling down, tripling down on this if we don't know whether the guy is going to be with us through and through, and I don't think anybody could tell you that the Lakers included. I just say this about I know we're not talking about the Lakers on the episode. By the way, if I was leading, it would be leading with the Lakers, because all I want to do is talk about the Lakers. But if the Lakers go out and shake up its roster to bring in Kyrie Irving, I would like to formally petition them for a name change. They should be the Los Angeles Losers. That's who they should be because look at what Look look at how they're playing right now. Look at how they're playing right now. They're playing good basketball right now. Lebron James is out. They haven't skipped a beat. They're putting themselves at least in the Play and Mix with a real chance to get that number six seed. DeAngelo Russell by and large has been excellent for that team. You look at the last three games, the way Russell has played twenty eight points against Toronto, shoots sixty percent from the floor against New York, thirty three points, shoots nearly seventy percent from the floor, a little bit worse against the Pelicans, but they got the win in that game. Russell is fine. He's who you need at the point guard position. Because if you resign hustle, that means you don't have to say goodbye to Rui Hashimura. That means you keep Malik Beasley on the roster like you are able to build out a normal, functional roster instead of trying to put three superstars together and sat and surround them with minimum contracts. The Lakers rob Polanka. I was effusive in my praise of him after the deadline. I thought the Lakers put themselves in position not just to get into the playoffs, but to compete for a championship with that group. I still believe that if he goes out and changes things, they are the Los Angeles Losers. I will never refer to them as anything but that if they blow up what they've built to go out and get Kyrie Irving and by the way, by the way, by the Kyrie like his options, they're not there. Like we all watched the interactions between Durant and Kyrie in that Sun's Mavericks game, there weren't any Like, there's clearly frostiness between those two because of what happened in Brooklyn. He's not signing with Detroit. He's not going to San Antonio, he's not going to Orlando. Like to me, as much as the Mavericks might need Kyrie Irving to play Kate Luca don Chich, Kyrie needs the Mavericks just as much to get a real contract. I'll grant Mannix this brief Lakers interlude just to say they have been playing really well, seven and three in their last ten. I was not necessarily the biggest fan of the trades they made, but the team has been really good. Chat out to Jared Vanderbilt especially. I think he's been fantastic. You mentioned D'Angel Russell coming back from the sprain ankle having some big games. They're only three games out of the four seed, which is just remarkable for all the things that have happened this season, it's truly remarkable because they made trades. They made a trade that put together a functional team. Yes, they woke up and realized, like, hey, maybe we need shooters. I know we went against that the last couple of years, but maybe we need shooters. Maybe we need some wing defenders. Maybe building out a roster of mid range jump shooters and big men was not the way to go. That was the only reason I couldn't be effusive, like, yeah, the deadline deal. It would have been hard not to like what they did because it by getting multiple players back for what they traded out, they built out a roster. To me, I felt like they could have done that much sooner. There was so much focus on the idea of Turner and Healed and everything else and Kyrie. At one point they just needed guys that could shoot and dribble and pass and it wasn't ever that complicated. To me, It shouldn't have been that complicated to get off of the Russ deal, you know, because you need to win now, and there were options out there that could have had them win now. My only fear, and I think now it's looking as if they should be okay, and so I think there should be some vindication in how Roblinka feels they could have done this a little bit sooner, so that you weren't like fighting your way into the playoffs with a couple of weeks to go with the roster that you know, Lebron's gonna miss time at this point, you know, Anthony Davis is gonna miss time. So like God forbid, Davis got hurt again while Lebron is already out. Where's that leave you? You You could have had a little bit more cushion than you don't have cushion now. But no, they've been playing really well. It's not that surprising. I thought, even when Lebron got hurt that if A D stayed healthy, and Chris, I know you wrote the Calm about this, that they're asking something of a D that really he hasn't had to do for quite a while, which is to try to carry a team over the line. And I think he's capable of doing that. I think he's basically been doing that with a better roster around him. You wouldn't have been able to do this with Russ. And to your point herring, Anthony Davis still not playing back to backs made the huge game. We're recording this on Wednesday. You know, Davis believe the Lakers clank today. He's not playing, so that cushion it's still not quite there for them. It's going to be up battle, but it'll be fun to watch. I want to talk about a team that we talked about a couple of weeks ago on this podcast a little bit. Harring went out there to write about them, but we didn't necessarily bring up bring them up in this context, which is the Sacramento Kings, currently third in the West Etern Conference. That was a I'm trying not to use any bad words here, but thrilling game they played against the Bucks the other night. Just a fantastic regular season game, really competitive both ends of the floor, and even though the King's lost, I was very impressed with the way they hung in with that Bucks team and their ability to score on that Bucks defense was very impressive to me. The Kings are eight and two in their last ten. They're currently third in the West, one game behind the Grizzlies for second. Memphis. John Morant recently checking into a counseling program in Florida. I think we talked about Morant last week. We are all gonna be very surprised if he returns anytime soon. On the court. Consequences of that, the Kings have a fantastic chance to finish second in the West, which obviously I don't think a single soul predicted before this season. But whenever we talk about contenders, I'm guilty of this. I don't put Sacramento's name in there. I think a large part because of their def sense. But guys, what do you think I mean that's that's not a large part, just but twenty one in the road record, I mean, they're one of the best road records in the NBA. They're the only team in the West with a winning road doesn't about that doesn't matter. I am I am, I am here for all the King's regular season praise. I don't like to vote shame, since we are in the vote shaming era, it seems, especially when it comes to MVP, well especially, I do think there's some vot vote shaming needs to have. For the record, all Boston media members that voted voted Joel and Beat as a starter for the All Star Game. Just to be clear, Um, I don't like to vote shame, but if you are a Coach of the Year voter and you don't vote for Mike Brown, you should have your vote revote. Like the guy has it as rapped as any coach or any award getter has an award. He's been phenomenal. But this team, guys, is cartoonish bad on defense, Like I think they try and they have a sound structure because Mike Brown is a defensive coach, but they are cartoonishly bad individually. Davion Mitchell is okay, I don't think he's this you know, Marcus smart, like defensive stopper that some have kind of projected him to be. But he's solid. Everybody else is just running around sometimes like a chicken with his head cut off, like you know, getting the ball out and bring it up the floor. Offensively, they are as dynamic as any team in the league, like so many shooters. Sabonis, I mean watching Sabonis against the Knicks the other night, just owning Mitchell Robinson in the paint, like he is a force and a great passer too, a great facilitator at the top of the key. But you know, look, Mike D'Antoni often said this, like, to be a successful playoff team, you've got to have a top half defense. To be a championship team, you've got to have a top ten defense. That Kings are nowhere near any of that. Like they are just awful and virtually every defensive metric. I think it's a great story, but if you get to the end of the regular season. If you're a bottom three team, who do you want to play? Like, do you want to play Memphis with John Morant back? Or do you want to play Sacramento with all that they have offensively but no defense whatsoever? Like I think defense is gonna unravel the Kings in the playoffs. Great story coach of the year. I hope they can build on it by bringing some other guys in next year that might address some of the defensive laws. But you know, this story ends April fifteenth or whatever it is that the playoffs start real quick, Mannix, because I don't disagree with the points you've made, and Harrying, I want to let you jump in. You know there's own defense has gotten them a little better. It's tea. But then what's the ceiling then? Because there's some loaded teams at the bottom of the table, and obviously we don't know how the matchups are gonna shake out. But do you see a first round ceiling on the Kings? Second round? Is there a chance that unity conference finals or what's the ceiling you'd put on that. I think the ceiling is probably second round, depending on the matchup. Like they are probably. No, they are. They're the most vulnerable top four seed I think in either conference. You know you can throw throw the Grizzlies in because you know, now you're hearing some reporting. Mark Spears over Dandscape was one of the guys that first said that. You know, John Moran could miss the entire season, so like, you don't know what's going on with that, but if John Morant's back, you'd rather play Sacramento than Memphis. You know, obviously the Nuggets they're going through what they're going through. We'll get to them, but I would still rather play Sacramento. The Eastern Conference, their top four seeds are really good. Sacramento is, you know, the team that people are gonna want to play. They could surprise in the first round. But I mean herring like, if you get Kings Lakers in the first round, are you picking the Kings? If you get Kings Clippers in the first round, are you picking the Kings? Like, I'm not not at this point, not with that defense. Yeah, I mean, it's it's one of those things where and I said this on like some local appearance I made out there in Sacramento after writing the magpiece I did about them, I can't remember the last time there was a two seed, potentially a two seed. I know they're in third right now, but they are like a half game a game out of second with the Memphis being in second, and so everybody is still wondering how far it does Memphis fall, if at all. Right now, I can't remember the last time you had a team that was like solidly at a two or three spot, that like no one's expecting anything of them. I think to some extent that includes their fans. When I was out in Sacramento and sitting down with Minnie McNair, their GM, he kept telling me how thrilled they would be to make the playoffs. Now, granted that was before they've gone on this run where they've won eight out of ten and everything, but it was coming. It was right before the All Star break, and it was at a point where looking at their second half schedule, it was still fees that they might you know, that it might be an uphill battle for them to stay in. So it's very strange to go from that to then trying to rev up the engine to like win a series or two when you're kind of happy to be there. Mike Brown has clearly like counted himself out of that. He's like, look, I came here to win a championship. Period. The playoffs are sure, but I came here to win. Absolutely. It's going to be a challenge for a team to win when you give up eighty points in the second half at home against the Bucks. I know the Bucks are the Bucks, but that's the reality of what happened. They've had games like that. They've won a game won seventy six to one, seventy five and double overtime. It was a second high scoring game of all time. There are some things about them that make me think that they can defend when they want to. But if they only want to defend at those stages of the game, that's not going to be good enough. I don't care how good your offense is. So can they win around? Sure, I would be very interested to see who that round is against. Could they luck up and win a second round? I'm inclined to say no, but if you you know, if somebody gets hurt or something like that and they're healthy. Let's keep in mind too, as we talk about all these teams. Certainly the Lakers, certainly the Warriors, certainly the sons. Now we're talking about Durant. Now we're talking about the stuff with jaw. Sacramento has been the healthiest team in the league. It is a huge part in my opinion of why they've been so good and so explosive is that they're starting five has basically been out there together all year. They've played the most minutes in the league of any five man lineup. And they're good and they are really hard to defend. So could they get to a second round and win a second round? I think it would probably take them being healthy and another team not being healthy. But all all told, I just think that the defense has too many holes. They don't have enough depth behind some bonus and he's in constant foul trouble because of their inability to defend the paint. So, I you know, I love them as a story. I love that Mike Brown will will deservedly win and Coach of the Year should be unanimous right now. Um, But I would be really surprised if they make it. Um if they'd be a little surprised that they even get to the second round, depending on who the opponent is. I'd be really really surprised if they win a second round and by themselves a conference finals. It's funny to hear you guys talking about this. I don't disagree with any of the points you guys have made. Um, I'm not going to belabor them. Their defense is an issue. It's just not built to succeed in the playoffs as good as they are offensively. But if you think about the current top four, saying the defensive issue is like saying that the hole in the Titanic was an issue. It's it's yes, yes, correct, correct. Um. But you look at the top four of the West right now, it's Denver, Memphis, Sacramento, and Phoenix. Then you think about the other group below them, it's Golden State Los Angeles, both Los Angeles teams. If you guys had to pick a West finals team right now, would you pick a team from the top four in the conference or from the bottom eight? I would go, Um, I take one of each? Yeah, probably one of each. Like, I think the Lakers are gonna win the West, Like I've said this to you guys before. Yeah, wow, Okay, Like depending, I don't know where they fall, Like do they catch the sixth seed? Five seed? It's just way too soon to kind of see, but I could easily see like Lakers Clippers in the conference finals. I could like, you know, the Nuggets, we're gonna get into them, are struggling at the wrong time. I don't know what's going on with Jamal Murray, Um. You know, a lot of variables. The Clippers. I've obviously have less confidence in the Clippers at this point than I do the Lakers, because the Clippers are trying to into great Russell Westbrook in a bunch of new guys into their mix, whereas the Lakers are kind of clicking without Lebron. So yeah, I'd probably go one of each at this point. Lakers for sure, and then you know, maybe Denver if they don't have to play them till the conference finals. Well, let's talk about Denver real quick, because they've been on a little slide here of late. They were running away with the conference briefly. I mean, they still have a pretty comfortable, healthy four game lead over the two seed Grizzlies. At the moment, they've lost four in a row. Though it's been strange hearing are you making a How concerned are you about Denver right now? Because I still think Denver is going to win the West. I have a lot of faith in them. I like what they talk about five man groups that have played together a lot. They're starting five has played together a bunch. They've been really good, and they've been really good actually on both ends of the floor. Though we're seeing I think teams finding some new ways to attack them this last ten days or so. What do you kind of make a Denver's recent slide here? Herring, Uh, it's been really strange. UM. I mean, it's not that they've lost four in a row. To me, I think that happens to a lot of good teams where you least lose three um in a row and sometimes four over the course of a long season. Normally you watch it coincide with injuries and stuff. So that hasn't really been the case here. Um Yo Kich has been out there, Murray's been out there, but horrible. UM. I think a big part of this too is the fact that they went out and got a buyout Reggie Jackson and he's been horrible to the point that he's been a DNP lately, or I think at least in the last game, and even before that, there were plenty of Nuggets fans clamoring for him to be a DNP. And and also those four losses have been against pretty bad teams. Um, you know, no disrespect to the Raptors, but the Bulls, the Spurs, How are you you're gonna You're gonna do that to the Yaka Purtle led Raptors, the Van I am Urdle, the New Stockton and Malone. Well, well, here's my thing, I am gonna do that because these are not just bad teams, but they're all like teams that are within like the worst six or seven offensively in the league. And they've had four straight losses to teams like that. So I mean it goes without saying that over that four game stretch, the Nuggets have had the worst defense in the league. They've been you know, a touch worse than league average on offense. And again it's with Murray shooting very, very poorly. And I do think it gets too and it's not to open up the MVP conversation necessarily, but it does get to an interesting facet within that conversation, which is that Yoki puts up massive numbers, which is not easy to do. He's been more efficient than really anybody on his shot volume, but It is interesting that as they lose games like that that, unlike somebody like Jannis and unlike somebody like Embiid, he he's not. He doesn't. He almost never, like he's just not wired to force things at a time where sometimes you almost want him to. He's still putting up massive numbers, but like at a time where Murray shooting nat poorly, it almost makes you want to see him just take the game over even more. I don't even know that that fundamentally shifts the race. I just think it's a close race at this point, and it'll be interesting to see who comes out in front. I think they also have to play the Sixers another time here, so it'll be interesting to see what happens with it. But does it make me concerned about Denver? Not really. Does it give me pause in terms of determining a favorite in the West. Absolutely it does, at least with them being the favorite, just because these are some pretty crappy teams that they're strong suggling to beat and I've got a tougher part of their schedule still left to go. I think they've still got one of the tougher schedules left in the league, so they'll win the West. I'm not really concerned about that, in part because Memphis doesn't have job. But it's none of it makes you feel better about where they're at, except if you're looking at it and saying, well, at least they're getting it out of their system now. That's the only plausible thing I can think of. But it's not a good look. Man X, what's your concern with them? Because I know you have your Lakers takes are all over the place here today, and I love the thea have been consistent since the trade dead may have been consistent, go back read the college I know, I agree. I m tell me about your your hang ups with the Nuggets. Why don't you see them being able to get it done well? It look the optimistic viewpoint is that it is an ebb and flow season, and the Nuggets have ebbed more than they've flowed, right like, they haven't had the lulls that teams like Milwaukee had early on. Boston's experiencing right now. Golden State is going through right now. They've been pretty consistent for most of the season. Mike Malone said recently that the team was kind of in cruise control and that can happen sometimes when you've been controlling the conferences as as much as Denver has for most of this season. But we went into this season wondering if Denver had the defensive chops to match up with the best teams in the playoffs. And the last five games have been some glaring warning signs. One hundred or more straight one hundred more point games given up over the last five straight games. They get up one twenty or more in the last three. They don't have defensive stoppers on that team, like Contavia's Caldwell Pope is pretty good, Aaron Gordon is very good, but they don't have Most of their team is average to blow average defensively, and you're kind of seeing their team defense get exposed by lesser teams during the stretch. The Murray stuff really wears me, like they need Murray to be a number two, like they need him to be a star. And you look at the numbers in the month of March, and they're bad, like thirty eight percent from the floor in March, thirty four percent from three. His scoring is down, his assists are down, his turnovers are up. He's averaging almost three a game in this month, and that can't happen. You know, for this team to win in the playoffs, Murray has to be a all star level compliment to Nicola Yokich. He's got to defend what's going to be a gauntlet of guards that he's gonna have to go up against in the playoffs. He's got to be that guy. And you know that that's watching him play over the last five six games, he has not looked like that guy. So you know, look, I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea that this team's going through with the kind of lull every team has gone through. It's just happening in a tough time of the season. But I wouldn't be surprised either if they bounced back in the next couple of weeks, win three in a row, win four out of five, and re established some momentum going into the playoffs. But their defense makes them vulnerable, you know, not just to get beat in the conference finals in like the first round with the wrong matchups. That's all vulnerable I think they can be because that defense is nowhere close to elite. Yeah, the Murray thing is fascinating because when they were winning a ton of games, especially January, February. He looks spectacular. The efficiency was way up. I mean, he shot forty five percent from three in January, thirty seven percent from three in February. Assists were way up in February. Averaged twenty seven points a game, twenty two points a game in January. And he looked really good, and the team looked really good, and you know, I think that was all after. That was all after Michael Malone kind of gave him the reins to just say, like, look, pass or fail, like struggle or succeed. We want you to just get your legs back on. Even if it means you're missing game winners at the end of a game or something like that, just take them because we want you to rebuild that confidence, you know for sure. And yeah, you hope that this is just some kind of law that maybe, you know, his body is still kind of acclimating to playing a full season again. I don't know if they want to give him a few games off just to get his body right. But it is very interesting to see kind of the team go up and down with his play because it's kind of struggles. As much as they've struggled defensively, they're still having these huge, kind of on off splits with Yokich. If Murray can be that guy, if he can be kind of the Chris Middleton or Drew Holiday that Jannis has something to that effect, they become a lot different team, a much different team, I should say. So that does bear watching. It is kind of sad to see this law after it looked like we were getting Jamal Murray back. He's such an exciting player to watch when he's at his best. And hopefully this is just some kind of momentary. Hey, I'm sick of the regular season. Let's get it going here. But we've obviously we were talking about the West. These two teams played Thursday night, and I think it's kind of interesting. I believe they're separated by a game or maybe the same record in the standings. That's the Warriors and the Clippers kind of sitting at five and six and two teams I think had massive expectations coming into the season. I said on our megapod before the year, I think it's a failure if the Clippers don't make the finals this year. Their year four now of Kawai and Paul George and just kind of not really getting anything done. With this core they made to me the strange decision to add Russell Westbrook and figure out how to integrate him into this situation. The Warriors will have just these moments of brilliance and times when the core guys look like the core guys have always looked. Then they mix in some baffling losses while also remaining just completely putrid on the road, Like it's embarrassing what their road record is this year, Like it's just truly pathetic. Which of those two teams do you guys have more faith in? The Warriors? Are the Clips Mannix? You can go first? You know, I want to say the Warriors, because like Steph is Steph, Draymond is Ramon Clay looks as close to the old Clay as he's probably gonna get. But the road record is no longer just kind of this quirk or an aberration. They are a terrible road team and have been all season long. As we record this eight game home winning streak, eight game road losing streak. They're going out, I believe, on a multi game road trip coming out coming up. So we'll learn probably a little bit more about that team in the coming days and weeks. But the Wiggins stuff worries made because Andrew Wiggins hasn't played in over a month now. Yeah, there is no we don't know why, right, it's personal reasons. He's been away from the team. Steve Kerr was asked about it recently. He said, look, we're hoping to get him back before the playoffs, but we don't know. You're not winning anything without Andrew Wiggins on that team. Andrew Wiggins was instrumental to what they did against all the great wings in the Western Conference last year, against Jason Tatum in the finals. Don't win without him, especially when you're looking at, you know, Kevin Durant in the playoffs to a lesser degree, Michael Porter Junior in the playoffs, Kawhi and Paul George in the playoffs. You need Andrew Wiggins to be successful. And without knowing that Wiggins is gonna be there in mid April, I just can't bet the house on the Warriors. I'm not bullish about the Clippers at this point either. I mean, teams don't overhaul their roster. The teams don't overhaul rosters. They're confident in it, right, And the Clippers went out and changed their entire bench they you know, dropped a nuclear bomb in the lineup in Russell Westbrook and then started him and said, you know go, you know, you let rust be Russ in those situations. Maybe Russ has taken too much criticism for the way they played early on, but like the Lakers exiled them for a reason, and the Clippers kind of brought him in and added him to that mix pretty late in the season. You're really just banking on Kawhi and Paul George being great. And while Kawhi it's been great since he's been back playing regularly, I still worry about the rest of that rotation. So I'm gonna say the Clippers, but I'm not bullish on either at this point. I'm far more bullish on my Lakers. Who are you know, steamrolling into the postseason as we speak. Okay, we've heard from I don't know if Mannix is doing some kind of reverse psychology here, after you know, years of bouncing on his dad's knee watching Larry Bird, that now he's all in on the Lakers. But I don't buy it. I'm sensing, I'm sensing, you know, the ulterior motive here, but we'll save that for another podcast. Herring. You tell me, though, are you confident in either of these teams or are you not expecting either of them to make a run. I wouldn't go as far as to say confident. I mean, I've kind of jotted down in my notes before we started here, I'll take the Warriors here if and only if I know Wiggins is back in the rotation and and you know, and in the right mental space. It's it's one of the rare things that as everything gets leaked out. I'm looking at Twitter right now, and apparently Aaron Rodgers just made, you know, his public declaration of what he's planning to do with the Jets. Things normally don't stay under wraps for that long. But you know, in the media, as far as and someone misses a like an integral player misses a month of time on a high profile team, it's normally out like why they're taking off the time. And it's not to say we are obligated to know that in this case for right now, I'm you know, I think it's great that that he has deprivacy and everything, but we also don't know, as the Warriors don't, whether he'll be back, whether that's something that will happen this year. They would not have won the title without him last year. There were people I think it was misguided, but the thought that he might even be realistically in the conversation for Finals MVP. He was so integral to that run last year. So to just assume him, especially without knowing Gary Peyton the second and when he's ready, you know when when he'll be back out there. It's not a situation in which I'm ready to say that if Wiggins isn't there, that they're going to repeat or even be a contender in the West. I also want to say too, that I think the Clippers Russ works well with them when he's not kind of torpedoing things by taking too many threes. I'm trying to figure out how much of their encourt off court stuff and Russ's encourt off court numbers. He's played a lot of minutes in which both PG and Kaoi are out there, and so it doesn't it wouldn't shock me if some of his stuff is inflated and some of their numbers with him on the floor are inflated. But Kawhi is playing some of the best basketball we've seen him play as a Clipper. Consistently now for a while. This could be the year for them, but I can't see feeling more confident about them with Russell Westbrook being a big part of what they're doing, given the way Russ's postseasons have gone the last several years and the way that defenses are going to guard him. We saw a preview that when they got stomped by the Warriors not too long ago, with them just playing all the way at the restricted area, basically kind of daring him to shoot from three, and Russ's kind of looking for someone to pass the ball too, So we're going to see a lot of that in the playoffs. I like the Clippers, but can't feel more confident about them than a Warrior's team that has Wiggins. So I'm curious to see whether he'll be back, but I would say that, you know, give it a little bit, just a little bit more time for the Warriors to maybe get Wiggins back first. I just what's funny to me about this entire podcast so far is the only team any of us has any confidence in in the Western Conference is mannix on the Lakers, and the Lakers are currently the tenth seed and missing Lebron James, and I don't even blame Chris. I think it just goes to show how just unpredictable and yeah, nonsensical the Western conferences right now because it's I have no idea who's going to win. It's a very It's been a very strange season out West, and I think it's going to be very interesting to see, certainly how that all shakes out. But it's just I tried to run through as many teams today as possible, and I don't know. I don't I have no confidence in any of these teams. They all have a serious flaw or two and yeah, we clearly have no idea where it's going to end up. I want to hop East real quick. Our buddy Mannix spoke to Donovan Mitchell. Was it this week or last week? But the story came out this week. The Cavs, who I believe now currently have the best net rating in the NBA, are an absolute, you know, juggernaut defensively, especially so far this season. Manis alluded to the kind of the questions about their experience playoff shared playoff experience in the story he wrote, and Dono Mitchell was like, listen, we got to go out there and prove it. Chris Uh, you are not bullish on the Knicks, but you seem to be pretty bullish on the Calves. Tell me about how you feel about Cleveland's chances. Well, you're more bullish on the Knicks since last week you projected them to be in the conference finals. If I don't know about you, did you did? You said conference finals for the Knicks. I remember it, Yes, you did. We will, we will pull up the audio. But that is misinformation. My thing with the Calves is that if you took away who they are, right, and if you didn't look at the median age of the team, and you just looked at the numbers. Forty three wins, which is I believe still fifth best in the NBA. Um a defense that is number one in terms of rating in terms of opponent points per game, a net rate that is either number one or number two. They keep swapping plays with Boston in terms of net rating and point differential. It's like a fraction of a point either way, and both those teams are up more than a point over the team in third place. If you just looked at that and then said, all right, you've got a team here with potentially a first team All NBA guard, two x All Stars on the roster, pretty solid wing depth in terms of guys that do a bunch of different things. You'd say that team's a contender, but then you say, oh it's Cleveland, and you say, ah, too young, too young, too young. History has taught us that, you know, whether it's the Thunder from twenty ten, the Bucks in seventeen eighteen, two years, really that teams like Cleveland need to go through some growing pains that they have to experience the playoffs, take their lumps in the playoffs, learn from the playoffs, and then they can be successful and look, Donovan Mitchell when I talk to him, acknowledge that. He said, that is a legitimate obstacle. Darius Garland when I talk to him, said that is a legitimate obstacle. JB. Bickerstaff when I talk to him, said, that is a legitimate obstacle. But at some point you've got to look at this team. When they keep winning and they go into Boston or they played Boston about a week or so ago and beat them, Uh, they are I think what three or No, they've got to win against Milwaukee. Three wins against Boston they split the series so far against Philadelphia, with one more to play later on in the season. Like, they're competing with top level teams. And when you have a defense as tight as they have, with a guy like Mobley that can defend like four positions, Alan who cleans up the glass, when you've got an offensive guy like Mitchell that can take over games, when you play with a methodical pace, that's a big part of this too, Like the Calves are not reliant on transition, Like I think they're thirtieth in pace, or at least in the bottom three. Yeah, they just they kind of walk the ball up and play in a half court. That's kind of boring, but it does make you better prepared for the playoffs. It's an argument against the Kings and frankly against Memphis too, that they play too fast to succeed in the playoffs, where possessions take on more of a premium. So I just look, I think they win a first round series. I think they beat the Knicks or the Nets, whoever they wind up playing in the first round, and then you get to the second round. Boston's kind of in a free fall right now. They're having an identity crisis. I think Joe Massoul at some point's gonna wind up coaching by himself since he has his benches now hemorrhaging guys Damon Stodemeyer on the way out. They've lost their identity. Philly's good, but I don't know. I still need to see, you know what, Philly. I need to see Philly make a deep playoff run before I completely buy into the seventy six ers. So I think, you know, I think you can't dismiss and that's kind of a cheap, you know, sort of vague way of saying it, but you can't dismiss the possibility this Cavs team can win a second round series, you know, like the teams that they struggle with, Like if like Brooklyn, if the Brooklyn had Durant, they would struggle with them, like they struggle with a guy like that. But like if they want to play in Milwaukee, like who in the Eastern Conference matches up better with Milwaukee than Cleveland because Milwaukee's got that big front line. Lopez the new enforcer in the NBA yeada YadA, YadA, Jannis Bobby portis like the Calves can throw a lot of bigs at them. They can throw Alan Mobiley, Dean Wade, some frontline guys at the book. So I just think we have to start wondering if this Cavs team is more than just one and done. I know that's the easy way to look at it. But the numbers say no. The star power on that team says no. Do they have the confidence? I don't know. Do they get kind of deer in the headlights in big situations and not understand the intensity of these games. I don't know, But right now, the Calves look like a team that can win multiple playoffs series this year. They have that look. In my Opini yet Herring, we've talked a lot this season about kind of that fifth spot for the Calves. You know, who's gonna play alongside the two guards and the two bigs. Most possessions have gone to Isaac Accorro so far this year, and they've been good in those lineups. They've been really good in those lines with Karis Lavert, even though that takes a takes away a little bit what they do defensively. Do you have enough confidence in a closing five for Cleveland in a playoff situation? I think I do one because Okoro I mean, the Ocoro thing is is not that complicated. You need the guy to shoot, period. You need him to make a couple of threes period. If he's not doing that for you're probably going to pull him off the floor and go to one of your other options. If he can make a couple of those or be enough of a threat with the time he's out there, he probably gives you a n of a fifth guy to be out there to defend the those types. And not to mention, obviously you don't want to invite Evan Mobley or anybody else in the foul trouble, certainly Mobili because of how important he is to you. But he's capable of taking on some of those those possessions where you need someone to just go in and Guardiana, certainly if the game is on the line or something like that, like he's he moves his feet well enough to do that. I don't think you want him to be your primary guy because he's too valuable to you, but you need Okoro to do that. You're gonna need other guys to step in and do that. Lavert does not strike me as the answer defensively, but the proof is there, and what Chris is saying, because I you know, I wrote a kind of a season curtain raising preview on the Cavs to start the season in training camp, and my takeaway was very much the same, like, if this team defends, they're scary, can they defend? I was not expecting them to answer that with the resounding we're going to be the best defensive team in the league. And I think I said this on one of the last pots we did as well. They have a top ten offensive rating against top ten defenses, which is, you know, that's normally one of the things you worry about. But they've got two All Star guards. They've been the number one defense in the league essentially despite playing two six foot one guards defensively who are not known for their defense. So it means that their back end is covering very well. It means their bench has not been shabby either. Bickerstaff has been big all season on the idea of staggering these guys. It's a scary it's a scary team, man, And it's what I don't like about the whole Oh, they don't have enough experience thing. So if they had won their playing game last year, all of a sudden we would think about them totally differently. The guy that is going to lead this team offensively during the stretch has plenty of playoff experience, So I don't think it's a team that you certainly can't rule them out for a first round win. I mean, they're gonna potentially be the higher seeded team anyway they could. They could go the distance here and and get to a conference finals, and I would not be stunned by depending on who they matched up against. If Boston continues to struggle, it's it's a team that no one is really going to look forward to playing. You're not going to be able to score on him. Yeah, I would really not be surprised if the team made the conference finals. I loved the Mitchell trade from the second they made it. I think he's lived up to the hype entirely. It's been a home run move for them, and I'm with you, especially with the way Boston has looked a little shaky. Milwaukee. We know offensively can struggle in the playoffs, and I think Mannux alluded to it. Cleveland has the defense to do it. I think it's going to be really interesting, Mannix, unless you have any more last second Lakers thoughts here. I think we're going to wrap up just that. If the Lakers wind up losing to Houston on Wednesday night, I take it all back, all right, I respect it. That'll do it for today's episode, though. Thank you to the Chris's for hanging out. Remember please be sure to subscribe to the Crossover feed. That is where you hear Harring and I moving forward until the next episode. Everyone, please continue to enjoy the NBA season HM, HM,