What Up. It's the Crossover Pod Friday edition. I'm Howard Beck, senior writer for Sports Illustrated. Very excited about today's pod. Today's guest. I know I say that a lot, sometimes more emphatically than others. I'm very emphatic today. My guest today is an all time NBA great and an all time NBA great guy. In fact, the NBA's Sportsmanship Award is named for him. He is, of course, Joe Dumars, and he's got a new gig. Joe d recently named the league's new executive vice president and head of basketball Operations. That means, among other things, he's the new disciplines are all the suspensions, finds, warnings, flagrant foul upgrades, public shaming, whatever it may be. You're gonna see Joe Dumar's name on all those press releases. That's a big part of his purview now. Um of course, Joe spent the last few years as a consultant for the Kings and before that the Pelicans, but he was one of the NBA's best team executives for over a decade, running the Pistons from two thousand to two thousand fourteen. Executive of the Year in two thousand three championship in two thousand four, we had a lot of fun discussing some of the highs and lows of that tenure. Yes, that includes Darko Milicitch, Yes, the Rashid Wallace trade. And yes, as some of you may know, but it's one of those wrinkles that's gone by with not a lot of coverage. But there was a Kobe Bryant trade that almost almost happened. Kobe Bryant could have been a piston back in two thousand seven. So we discussed that story, which was fascinating and I couldn't let the moment pass without asking. Also about the famous infamous photo of Joe Dumars with phones pressed to both ears. You may have seen that appear on occasion on Twitter. We get the back story. It's fun. We also briefly touched on Bill Russell, who, like due Mars, is originally from Louisiana and one of Dumars heroes growing up. Um nice to see the NBA announced that Bill Russell's number six will be retired league wide. Before we get to all that, quick rem finder, please rate, review, and subscribe to The Crossover wherever you get your podcasts. And hit me with all your feedback on Twitter at Howard Beck. Okay, my conversation with Joe Dumars is coming up next, so stick around. This is the Crossover and NBA show hosted by Sports Illustrated. It's Chris Mannox and Howard Back. It's a whole new level for you and me. Chris, this relationship, I can subscribe for the best weekly NBA content. These two are capable of. What does that mean? Could be the best duo ever. I don't see how you can beat that. Here they are, Chris Mannox and Howard Back, now very pleased to be joined by the new executive vice president and head of Basketball Ops. There's a comma in there somewhere. I'm not sure. I'm not sure how these titles work. Joe Dumars, Joe, how are you great? I don't know how these commons work either. So now NBA titles, they get more complicated, I think by every year. Congrats, welcome to the new role. We're sitting here in the NBA headquarters. So you're new home in New York? How you how you acclimating to big city life here? I I I actually love it so far. I've been here for about four months now and got a nice place on the Upper West Side, and it's been great so far. The only thing I wasn't prepared for was um. When I left school in Louisiana, I thought, I'm probably never going to live in humidity again. No one told me how humid New York is in the summer. It's it's gross. U Tim Frank NBA ACEPR person sitting to your left here, we we did. We had like an entire twenty minute, uh conversation fetching about the humidity before you came him. Didn't not tell me that before? They should have Wait, No, he waited until after I signed on, didn't he told me? So? Yeah, yeah, I don't know if it's quite in Louisiana levels like I've spent some time in New Orleans in the summer. That's but but it ain't pleasant. I don't I don't understand how businessmen or anybody else are walking around in full suits out there. I'm like in a short sleeve shirt and usually just short. It's I get just sweaty just looking at other people in too much clothes. Um, so you're settling in, we're recording this. It's just been a week or so since Bill Russell's passing. There's a lot of stuff I want to get you, but I do want to start there because obviously a titan of the game and of this league. But also you guys, I know you do have didn't really cross paths, but you do have common roots in Louisiana. Yeah, you know, growing up as a young basketball player in Louisiana during my time, during my era, um, you had some greats to look up to, none bigger than Bill Russell. Um he's a native Louisiana guy. And so you grew up hearing about Russell being this Louisiana guy that ended up moving out to San Francisco. But he was one of the guys Willis Reed, Elvin Hayes, Pete Maravit's you know, you you ended up hearing, although Pete wasn't originally from Louisiana, but you here, you heard about all these legends, but none were bigger than Bill Russell. Like he was. He was the standard for everybody growing up there. Never got a chance to cross past during your time. Just but not not really into any deep deep conversations, but just from afar, just incredible respect for not only what he did on the court, but what he stood for off the court, and uh, just reading some of the history of the things that he stood forward and went through and accomplished, you know, on the court, you know, the greatest team champion ever. Um, I just think it's incredible. What what what Russell stood for? Um, your new role as executive vice president, COMMA head of basketball ops, I gotta I gotta talk to your people, said Frank about these about these titles. Um. We we we always think about this as like theciplines are right, Like your name is now going to be on every press release of somebody being suspended, find uh publicly shamed what whatever the the order of the day might be. It's I know, it's a little bit bigger of a role than that. You're involved with rules changes in the competition committee, and you and I chatted a little bit in in Vegas right after they had approved the new rule about the take foul. So there's a lot that it encompasses. But people will see your name most commonly with the discipline stuff. And this is the role most recently Kekey Vanderway, Rod Thorne before him, Steve Jackson. It is usually somebody who comes from the player ranks or coaching ranks. So what do you feel like you're you're you want to bring to this that you know might be similar or different too to those who preceded you in this How do you see the role aside from what I will just simply refer to as the disciplines are So first of all, Um, those three guys that you name, you know, Kiki and Rod and um uh Stu all did a great job and I respected them in this particular role. But you don't really know the role until you get here. And the public part of the role is the discipline. That's the that's the public part. But you're right, Howard, you know the other stuff is UH takes up probably more of your time than the discipline part. But the discipline part is the part that gets the most you know, attention, and I get it, I understand why. But it's a it's a job that encompasses a lot of different areas and I think, um, being a former player and a former front office is that it helps informs your decision making and when you get into a role like this, UH to help you better understand the issues. And I think that's why this role has always had people who have been on the other side. I think it's imperative that you understand both sides of this. I don't think it would be good, um if you couldn't truly understand when things come across your plate um from a player perspective, from I never coached, but from a coaching perspective front office perspective. I just think it's really important to have that perspective when you sit in a seat, it's it's gonna take a big bit of your time as well when those you know, events arise, right fight, not that anybody nobody fights in the Ambia more, but yeah, they'll be able one of those little fake scuffles or something, Um, somebody steps out in some other way, flagrant fouls that you guys have to review and on all this, Um, do you go into it with a thought in mind about just a kind of a governing philosophy, right like you're you're the head of discipline, you know, among again among other things. Um, and I think everybody has. We think of the way Rod Thorne, that era is a certain way. We think of keki a certain way. Do you do you think you bring a different sensibility to it? Perhaps do you come in thinking, you know what, maybe we need to tighten up a little bit here or there. I mean, you're obviously you've been involved into uniously with the league for you know, you know, it would have been three decades or so, like, do you come in with a different sense or your own sense of how that? How do you approach that? So it's a great question, But I haven't thought about a particular style to do to do this job. But I do say, and I've said internally here that uh, I won't simply read the rules to people when they call that. I'll have a conversation with it with context. Um. You know, I I played on a few teams where it might have had a few bumps and bruises and and and suspensions and fines and so so there's not a conversation that can come up how that I haven't had before. So that's why I intend to have conversations with people. And at the end of the day, I just say this, Um, you may not like the final decision, but unleash you will understand how we got there. I'll walk you through how we got there and you can disagree with it. But I just want to be able to have conversations with people, um, and make sure that they understand, like, look, here's the perspective, here's why we landed here. Uh, here's what you did, you know. And so I just think I'm in a position to have like really honest conversations with whoever it is. I would love to hear those conversations, not that I will ever have that opportunity, because I can just imagine at some point in there. On the one hand, Uh, you're the perfect person to be heading up discipline as a former Pistons bad boy. On the other hand, you were a Pistons bad boy. So it's somewhere along the lines of those conversations gonna be come on, man, what if what would you have done? Or look what you did? Or they're they're gonna be pulling up your clips or something and saying, hey, come on, look look what you got away with. Um, what's the movie? Uh, catch me if you can. It was a guy who was doing the he was doing the uh the fake checks and all, and once he got used it, they ended up hiring him the head of department. So I'd say, who better than a Piston bad boy to be in a position like this a little No, seriously that I've been there, done that, seen it. I have seen it from the other side. I do really feel like I can have any conversation with anybody that that has an issue about whatever they're gonna call in about, because I don't wanna say I've seen everything, but man, I've seen an awful lot, and I don't think there's anything that's gonna come across. That's I don't expect this come to surprise me. Maybe it will, but but I'm just saying like, I've just seen so much stuff, So whatever phone calls come in, I believe I'll be able to have whatever the calls are. NBA obviously a much different game, different league than it was during your playing days, even actually during your your Pistons years as as as head of basketball ops for the Pistons. Um, it's different even from then, and that's that was fourteen, which your last year there, right, so um, and one of the things that's changed with it, of course, as we've evolved from or or moved from the David Stern era to the Adam Silver era, there is less that happens on the court that I think needs the heavy discipline, right there's not doesn't really fight in this league anymore. Um. But at the same time, there has been kind of this common thread or since around the league, like it's got a little softer in the Adam silvera like this, the suspension that that might have been like five days in the David Stern eras now like two and like some of that. Do you have you sense that yourself in this time? Do you think that there needs to be any kind of course correction there? And that's the other thing too. People attribute it to oh, Adam Silver, Kinder Gentler, David Stern, you know, the the the disciplinarian type. Um. But the role and the job is Rod Thorne, Stu Jackson, Kiki, Joe Dumars. So how much of that and maybe you can clarify this for folks too. Then is it about the commissioners overall philosophy in a particular era or is it about the person sitting in your seat? So, I do think to your point though game has changed to I don't think there's a call for us much hard discipline to your point about the game being a little bit more from this now, So it's that really doesn't call for the heartline disciplinarian. But I will say this, and I've said this to some current players. Now, every error has its style, has its stamp. Every error the seventies, eighties and nineties, early two thousands, every error is gonna have its style. And so I don't think it's specifically Adam Silver. I just think it's the NBA right now. I think there's a lot less as you and I know, there's no you know, we haven't had any piston tight brawls or anything like that, and so to have a heavy hand on things that are not the same as they were would be disproportionate. In my opinion. I think it would be disproportionate. If you ever got back to that, I think you would see, you know, some hard discipline action is coming down. So I just think it's the error right now that we're in. Yeah, fair, Um, occasionally something happens and occasionally and and and I'll often note that like, huh, yeah, I think that might have been three games under David. Yeah, there's always gonna be a comparison. Like, you know, David was a giant, a legend, and you know, made his mark on this game incredibly, So there's always going to be a comparison. If you follow a great player, if you follow a great coach, a great tm, a great commissioner, there's always gonna be a comparison to the guy that was that held it before. Everybody who works in the league is gonna say this. I think, mostly because it's true, but it's also you know, company line, the games in a great place, and obviously it's very entertaining right now everything else, I don't think too many people, especially younger fans who have grown up on this brand of basketball, would say that they miss grinded out nineties guys beating the ship out of each other in the paint stuff like, but that was your era and everybody, you know, all captives of our own era, whether as players or fans media, Um, do you miss it a little bit? When you watch the game today? Do you do you ever have that impulse of like that guy, that guy needed a nailble to the rib. Yeah. I I've seen some some plays that that that probably needed a little bit more physicality to it. But I'll go back to this, And I was having this conversation with the Draymond Green, and he and I were talking, and I said, we were talking about how people always um compare to different errors, right, And I said to him, I said, listen, it's it's up to the players of that generation to determine how people are going to look at their error. I said, in our era, it was a tough physical um error and you had to fight your way through that. And that's how we decided in that era that it was going to be. You guys have decided it's going to be a wide open three point shooting error. Every generation gets to choose how they want their error to be. They really do. They get to choose how they wanted to be. So I don't even look at it now. I really don't have. He and I had this conversation, and I said, I said, and I told him, I said, I don't even look at the game now and go, oh man, they should be playing like we did. I don't even look at like that. I look at it and go, this is this is how their error is going to be defined, because this is the style that they want to play. Who knows ten years from now, fifteen years from now, how the game is gonna look. It may look totally different than it looks right now. And so I just I really believe that. I believe every generation they get to dictate what that error is going to be. Like hours was what it was. It was like, Okay, you know, well, Draymond's a Michigan guy, grew up. I'm sure idolizing your team's was he was? Did the conversation Was it about the fact? Was he also romanticizing that error in that style of play? Was he saying he wanted a little bit more of that? I mean, I could. I can see him going either way because he's a product of this era and has thrived in this era. But at the same time, Draymond is Draymond. So yeah, Well, by the way, I suspect this will not be the last conversation the two of you have. Well, it was about a discipline issue that I was talking to him about it, so let's clear. But no, he grew up at my house, and so he and a and a bunch of kids football NFL guys and NBA guys grew up with my son at my house. So I've been knowing him since twelve thirteen years old. And so he's a kid that stayed at my house growing up. So we can have we can have some real, honest conversations. And so we were just talking about the errors and and you know, because he does a lot of that stuff on his podcast about comparing the errors, and and he said, what do you think about that? And I just told him, like, look, this is y'all's era, like you don't have to play like we did in the eighties and nineties. You you guys get to dictate. And he and he hadn't thought about it, like he said, you're right. I said, yeah, this is your error. Like I don't get to tell you guys how to play, and the guys from the Vents or whatever, they didn't get to tell us how to play. I said, so I'm not trying to tell you how to play. I'll just I'll just look at it and enjoy it. And and and and I said to him and go, yeah, that should have been a little bit more physical right there. But you still good to choose it. Man, those are gonna be some interesting phone conversations because I know those are gonna happen. The fact that you guys have known each other since, you know, way back when it's gonna adds adds a whole other dimension. Yes, he he knows me though I've dealt discipline with him before before either one of us in our ROAs right now, so he understands. I'm now I'm curious, what's the first thing you ever had to discipline Draymond? Maybe maybe too deep in the years there. Uh, Draymond will tell us himself on his next podcast for sure. What's the last several years been like for you? Like, so your your Pistons tenure goes from two thousand and it's almost like two completely separate eras there um. And then since that time, you consulted for the Pelican I don't know if that is ever official, you were like secretly consulting for the Pelicans, right, Like, I just know those guys at there for a long time, Mickey Womas, and I was really close to the football side with sound Peyton and those guys. I spent a lot of time. I would actually I spent like two or three um drafts with them in their in a war room, doing the draft on the NFL Draft night with them, And so I'm really close to those guys. So it was more Saints we were talking about the Pelicans, actually, yeah, because that one doesn't even end up on like your the press. Yeah, like you know Judo Jure spending a few years in the Kings and like the Pelicans aren't even there. That was like the the secret behind the scenes. Is an NFL draft room is it is like an NBA war room on draft night too? Is it similar? Is it a similar? But it's it's it's how it it's um Where in an NBA draft room you may have ten fifteen people. In the NFL draft room, you might have sixty or seventy people in there because the scouts from all over the regions are in there, and so they have this it's the way it's set up is at least in New Orleans is they have these roles, and these roles go up about five rows and it's just scouts in personnel people there like like like a like a lecture hale you're describing, yes, exactly, and and down at the bottom is you know, it would be like me and Mickey and and Sean Payton and um maybe Dennis Allen, who's head coach now, was a decordinator at that time, and and and they're discussing like like what's gonna happened, And they're going back to the to the scouts and asking what about this kid in the fourth round from Appalachian State whatever. So there's sevenenty guys in the room, and you might actually they might actually call on them in the midst of because I first thought, as you can't pop, why are they all there? They can't possibly all have input. There's so many players, it's so so many players. You better have enough people in that room to cover all of that. So, yeah, it was, it is fascinating, It is fascinating. It was. It was great. I really enjoyed that. You know, you pick up anything along the way where you're filing it away like this would be good, you know, in terms of best practices that could fly back to the NBA. And I'm sure they is an organization with the the owner ship having overseeing both probably I would imagine tried to do that anything that popped out, just the amount of background that they do and and and look, there's so many what was a hundred football players in college, you know on the college roster in the NFL is sixty or whatever. So the rosters are so much bigger, So the pool of players are choosing from so much bigger than what we choose from. And so just the amount of work that goes into knowing thousands of players from around the country. It's it's fascinating to see. I think their background work is is pretty incredible because it's you know, they're they're telling me what the guy, you know, how many snaps he took in his senior year in high school, especially if he's a running back. You know, you start you start tracking those those snaps, how many hits he's taken, you know, and so it's just that, you know, it's different, but it's, uh, it was fascinating. It's just fascinating. So from there you end up splaying last three years with the Sacramento Kings as chief strategy officer. UM, And obviously that's a team that's you know, been trying trying to find its way for for a bit here. Um, what were the from the New Orleans and Sacramento experiences just kind of being as opposed to the day to day with everything on you, but just being able to kind of give your input, like what what was what were those years about for you? Yeah, So the Sacramento part was quite simply it was it allowed me to um dive back into the league without having to make the day to day because I didn't want to do the day to day I did. I just didn't want to do to day to day. And it gave me the opportunity to to really know all of the new coaches, all of the new players, all of the new young gms, UH, and really be able to get a real grasp on the league, to know the league front and back, because when you're doing it day to day, you know that you know that automatically because you have to in that particular role. It allowed me to do it without having to make all the day to day decision and I absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed, uh my time in Sacramento. I really enjoyed because it allowed me to to help Evac and Monty m uh money McNair, West World Cox. You know, they would lean on me a lot. What do you think, what would you do here? How would you handle this? Like? It was great. It was all the stuff I could do easily for them. But also I was studying all the players and all the coaches and what teams were doing and new trends and so it was great. I I really enjoyed it. Yeah, because I guess in the in the intervening years, you know, from the time you left the Pistons too, You're probably not as plugged in even even in the time you're you're consulting with the Pelicans or whatever that that role was. It's you're not in the weeds in the you're not in Thewegian and you're casually and you're casually um um tracking this stuff. You're not You're not on it every day. You're you're you're definitely not in the weeds. My son played over in Germany. I was in Germany for for some time with him, hanging out with him because he was playing professionally over there, and so I wasn't asked connected to the league. So once I went to sacrament I'm like, man, this is great because I've been like I don't want to say completely disconnected, but away from this game for like two or three years, and so it was I really enjoyed it. And you know, the transition from that to this makes it that much easier. As I think about it, you know, if I would have gone from hanging out in Germany and hanging out in New Orleans to this and not been on top of it, that that that would have been a little bit more difficult to take a lot more time to get up to absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so you said something interesting there that you didn't want to do that, you know, team president or GM type job. Again, when did you know that? Because at the time that it always sounds like so harsh to say when somebody fired you, did you okay? When you parted ways? What was I don't remember what it was. It described my contract was about to end, and I actually went to Tom Gores and said, when the season is up, I'm done. Yeah, I'm done. And the reason I said that, to answer your question is I spent fourteen years on the court and then I went directly to the front office. So I spent thirty straight years in the in the pit like as a player and then running the team, and it was thirty straight years of it. And so I don't care who you are, thirty straight years of anything, you know, I want to do something different. I've done this, I've been there, done this, did it at the highest level as a player, at the highest level as team president. Uh, I'd like to be involved, but I don't want to do that anymore. I've done enough of that And that was the reason. That's and that's why I said that were you sure then, as you tell Tom Gore's was time for me to to to step away. Um, did did you think I need a little bit of a break and then I'm gonna want another GM job? Or did you did you know even at that time, were you already sure that this was the last time you would do that. I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure I needed a break, But I didn't know. But two or three years excuse me, two or three years later, I realized I can't go back to just to be in the GM again. I just it wasn't what appealed to me at that time. And I knew at that moment I'm not really looking to do the day to day. Uh. And and I realized then too that if I will ever go back to a team, I would need a GM. You have to say, I'm saying I could go back as president, but president, because in Detroit I was president and GM. I remember thinking, yeah, if I ever did this again, that would have to be a GM doing a lot of the day to day because I just for fifteen years I did long enough. I remember wondering at the time, or at least the first few years after you had part of ways with the Pistons about when you would get back in. I thought for sure you'd be back in, and I'll just like for for the younger listeners especially, I'll go over real quick here. But it was like you had two different eras with the Pistons. So two thousand you joined the team, you guys jump from thirty two wins to fifty by your second season, you guys average fifty five wins from two thousand one too, too, oh seven o eight fifty five wins a season, including sixty four wins in two thousand and five, six six straight Eastern Conference finals, two finals, and of course championship in two thousand four. And then there's the back half from two thousand eight nine. After that finals, team kind of starts to come undone, as happens in this league. You guys average thirty wins, only one playoff appearance, first round loss. And I wondered, like the way you frame it now, Joe, it sounds like you know maybe a lot of that. Also, just as you point out thirty straight years, it can just weigh on you. You You can just get get a little worn out. I also wondered if the back half just weighed on you, right, like having to preside over a team that gone to six straight Eastern Conference Finals wins, the championship, two finals, trying to to to reinvent that on the fly and you guys had you know, you took some swings and had some misses. And how much of it was just about man Like, it's it's hard enough to put together a team to win at the highest level, trying to do it a second time in the same place. Was did that weigh on you? Was it just the strain of it all? I don't look at it like it weighed on me as a strain, but I realized it. I was really conscious of it that we're trying to do this again on the fly because we didn't after we had this incredible run. It was not this announcement that, Okay, we're gonna tear it down and rebuild. It was how can we keep winning? And so you you're trying to off to say this to people, I say, it's trying to change the tires on the car while you're driving, right Like, It's not like you get to stop, you know, like we got to stop and change those tires. It's like we're gonna keep rolling. You gotta change him on the flight. And that's that's how I looked at it. But it didn't really weigh on me. I think that that part I wouldn't say weighed on me by itself. It was still accumulation of thirty straight years of fourteen on the court and it's actually fifteen or sixteen in the front office. You know. After thirty years, it was just like, okay, I've I've carried this flag enough, you know. Yeah. Um. And there were some again, some big swings in there. There was iverson billips swap and you're trying to swing, you're trying to change the tires. Yeah, and and and I always say this, I always tell people this man on whatever it is good of at So I like the swings and mrs. I'm telling you how the media guys that Detroy to tell you I would do like this, they were like, what happened? I was like, I messed up. I missed on that. Like I would literally raise my hand like yep, that's that's on me, okay, Like you know, you just I think you own it. You own like we had tremendous success, but we had some mrs too. And I own all of it like you know, and I think for me that I think in the leadership position, that's what you do. Every listener right now is has Darko Militch in their head. Yeah, it's a miss. It's a flat out miss. Yeah. Is that? Is that the one of all the moves you make over over fourteen years, is that the one that you want back most? Well? It is? It is? Um Am, I allowed to say we wanted title that year. You're allowed to say you want a title absolutely and went back finals next year. I could have wanted her. She has actually stuck the right. But but if I'm allowed to say that, then absolutely we can talk about no. But it's uh no, really, I own all of it, like we we as a as a staff. And then I got to make the final decision on this. We we go look with this big, young, talented kid, I think he can help us. We have periminal guy, we got taunty reputation, we got this already. We need another big with Ben Wallace, we didn't have her Sheet Wallace at the time. We hadn't traded for him yet, so we went with him. Didn't work out. So I go to the press conference in Detroit and Mitch album, and all the other guys asked what happened, and I go, it's my fault. We missed on it. Like I don't. I don't try to make excuses for it. I don't try to like avoid it like I when people do that often, you know, I look at people when they're doing that. I just kind of shake my hand, like just own it, like well, I mean, it's it's funny too because we like, you know, we lionize certain people in this league about you know, their track records whatever. But like I covered Jerry West early in my career when I was covering the Lakers, like Jerry West had some pretty colossal misses along the way too. And Jerry's one of the greatest ever freaking do the job. And he's great, and I don't need to point those things out to like, you know, be nippicky, but like the best to ever do it. What everybody has, everybody has had big misses, so you know, and like I said, I that's why I do yeah, yeah, And we won the championship. Oh yeah, there was that is the rashime trade, uh, your best move or the one that you you you know, all these years later, it was the most significant move because he actually got us over the top. I don't think we could over the top without him. I think we're good, we're Conference finals level, but you need something to get you over the top, and and he was the guy to do that, and so it was the most significant move. I mean, anytime you man move in the middle of the season and that gets you over the top to win the championship, that has to be your most sign which almost never happens too. But right it's very rare that the end season trade is the one that leads a team to a championship maybe the next year or two years. But like um and you and and that scene was fascinating anyway, because it is we always talk about it as until Ben Wallace made the Hall of Fame this year, it was always the loan championship team in the modern era that won without any Hall of Famers, that particular distinction is gone, but it's still like that was a that was an ensemble, right, like that was some of their parts team. So I do think that you have to be willing to take swings, and I do think that you have to be comfortable with being an outlier. And I was always comfortable with that, I was comfortable with taking swings, and I was comfortable with being an outlier in the sense that we weren't trying to build a roster like everyone else. We were trying to build a completely different type of roster and everyone else. And it happened to work out great for us, and we we want to tile in. We you know, we had great success with it. Um. Should Chauncey be next Hall of Fame? Yeah? I mean if you look at his track record and what he did during that time period and being the Finals MVP, and he was he was, he was a catalyst for us during that time and I think he will. I think he'll. I think he will ultimately get in. Yeah, being Finals m v P and being part of a bunch of great teams and the career that I mean, he doesn't have the prototypical outline. So it's a tough case. But there, I mean, I should have looked it up. I can't remember how many Finals MVPs have not made the Hall of Fame. He I think he might be one of two or something. Maybe he still maybe that was the only one. UM, And so there's there's that part of it. But it's a it was a hard team to quantify, right, Like you guys came out of no one thought you guys were making the finals that you're much less knocking off the Lakers with you know, four stars for Hall of Famers on it um. But also because it wasn't about any one guy. It was about Chauncey and Rip and Tay Shawn and the Wallace is um. I always thought too. And you know how you feel about this. This is not to diminish Ben Wallace, but Ben becomes this defensive dynamo. But I always thought that. But he obviously he was undersized. That was part of the mystique, right. Rashid had all the size and length, and Rashid could guard everybody everywhere. I always thought like he was in a way the lynchpin, like Ben Wallace gets all the glory there. But I don't know if again this is not to diminish Ben Walls, I don't know if Ben Wallace can become that Ben Wallace without Rashid. There is there anything to that. That was a great compliment with him. That was a great compliment with him. Um, Rashid could guard anyone, okay, and if you put him one on one with if you if you put him one on one garden someone he he does a great job. But if by chance they beat him Ben Wallace coming from the weak side, it's just incredible. And so I just thought that they complimented each other. Well, Ben was great before she got there. Let's let's not forget that he was. He was he was defensive Player of the Year and mean he was. He was a don and a defender. But I do think that he and Rashid together though, give you a chance to win the title, which they did. And so there is something to those two plan just exceptionally well together. Cedric Maxwell, Tim Frank informs me was the other finals MVP who is not in the Hall of Fame. Um, different resume than than Chauncey's. But um, but yeah, it's it's it's a rarity. I have to ask you. I made the crack when we were in Vegas, and I don't know if if it actually registered when I said it. Um. There is a famous slash infamous photo of you that became a meme on social media with the two phones. It's old school. One is the phone plugged into the wall, looks like in your office maybe in Detroit and then you've got the cool flip phone from the early two thousands. The other hand, what is the story behind that photo. I don't know if it's been told. It was. It was. It was trade talk. So it was I was on my office phone and I was talking about a trade, talking about a trade, and it was a multi team trade, and one of the other teams called me on my cell phone, and I didn't want to miss that phone call, so I just I said to the person I'm talking to on the on the office phone, just hold on one second. So I had it and then I'm trying to talk on the other phone. So yeah, on that flip phone, Yes, it was. It was. Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah. Do you remember what the trades? I can't remember. I can't remember. You know, how are you sitting man? So many trades I can't even remember. I wish I could remember, like the teams I was talking to, but it was definitely two different teams, and I just didn't want to miss that phone call from the team that was calling alip phone. Any recollection if that trade actually happened, came to fruition or was this just one of those many things? Say it probably did, because most of the time that we we we we ended up discussing the trades that that that probably fell apart. A lot is just a one on one trade because you can't get there. And but when it's multiple team you you can work to make it work, you know what I'm saying, Like, you can figure out ways to make it work when it's multiple teams, somebody else, take a draft pick, somebody else, take a player, like, you can get it done. So multiple teams, you would think it's it's harder than it is, but you can. You can get deals done. So it probably got done today. Somebody would have just like texted you that or whatever something else. Of course, Yeah, you only have to be on a matter of fact. A matter of fact, the the Rashi trade in the middle of the season, the majority of that trade got done by text by text message. Yeah, in the early days of text message, like the number three times to get to the right letter because you couldn't. Yeah. But I specifically remember telling John Hammond, you know, John, we just did a trade. What the majority of it was was text. The actual like the negotiations that that we were willing to send in. You guys put in that like the actual mechanics of it. Absolutely, absolutely, And because I remember texting Um Billy Knight down in Atlanta or Rashid spent like twenty four hours. Yeah, I remember trying to um texting Danny Ain't because he was a part of the trade. I just remember texting these different guys that we would do this and do that or whatever. And so yeah, I remember, and I said to John Hammond after we finished, I said, John, we just did a trade with the majority of this trade was done on a text for the first time. Springfield should have immediately some of those phones. They should have had, like the transcript printed out first NBA trade consummated by text, and they should have that flip phone sitting right next to it. And and the photo of you. Why was that photo taking? That's the other question. How did it end up on Twitter? The only person that would probably know is rest his soul is not here. It was Matt Dobin probably knows. He probably knew what it was. Maybe he's appen. I love the fact that it it was. It was an actual trade talk, not some post things there was some feature story now like this was this was a candid, true shot that somebody's in the office, I'm on the phone, and they take a snapshot. Those things don't see the light of day very often. So I assume you also see the humor in that. Absolutely. Um. I was chatting with somebody who who knows you well. I was asking, like, what else should I ask Joe about from the Pistons days? What's what's a good story? Said? The most stressful game of your time? At least by this person's accounting. I assume this is correct. Two thousand four, not in the finals, not even in the conference finals, Game six at New Jersey, You're down three to two. Accurate that that was the most stressful games. Why we are We've made the big trade. I've pushed all the chips in. I've traded away to first round picks, moved some people. It was a four team trade. It was seventeen players in the trade. We're getting rashied back. I remember talking to Bill Davidson, the owner of the Pistons at the time, and saying, look, I'm gonna do this trade. He said, um, is this the one you think gets it overtome? I said, yeah, absolutely, he said, let's do it. Let's go. So it was this wasn't a trade where, um, I hope we can get to the conference finals. I hope we can get to the finals. This was a trade. We have to win it. We have we have to win a matter of fact, when we made the trade. I keep bringing up these guys who are not with us anymore. But when we made the trade, you would know. And I don't know if anyone else tim would know. But I remember Drew Sharp wrote an article and the title was The article basically was, if the Pistons don't win the championship, this season is an utter oh year. This was in the wake of the trade, after the trade happened, so so and and he and specifically wrote, even if they get to the finals, if they don't win it, this is a failure. So everybody there was filling that and and we didn't run from it. We basically said, yep, that's the case. Yep, I agree. I remember talking through and saying, yep, that's true. He said. I said, yeah, that's true. If we don't win it, and here you are now down three to two two in the second round, and we we we fly into Jersey and I forget the name of the arena. Was that medal. That was kind of yah. And We're sitting there and we're down three to two, and I'm telling you, um, we're down, and it's me, it's John Hammond, it's Scott Perry, it's Ryan Hoover, it's I don't know, maybe John Horst, who's with Milwauken, Like all these all of us sweating bullets in that arena, just we have to win. And so it was the most stressful game I've ever been a part of, and we pulled it out at the end and we go on to win the series. And I've told that story to Rod, I've told that story to Jason Kidd. I told that to all those guys, and they were like, well, we were stressed on the other end too, because we knew if we didn't win that game, we weren't going back to Detroit and winning Game seven. Yeah. Well that was the next team that had obviously been to two straight finals, lost to the Lakers, lost to the Spurs. Um, that's that's Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson and Martin. You're still on that team, right, Um, you guys win Game seventy five and then you blow them out in Game seven nine these scores, by the way they we're looking back, I'm basketball like, Man, it's still I mean I lived through that ere I covered are but still it's it's still weird looking back and schoos, Yes, I think you guys didn't crack seventy in game one of that series. I probably didn't calling correctly. Um, once you're over that hump, do you are you? Are you confident? Then like, okay, we're We're good. Like you still got another series. The next series is stressful too. We play the Indiana Pacers, the Indiana Pacers head coaches who I just let go. So now we're playing a Rick call Isisle who was with us a year before, and you got LB, you got Larry Brown. Now he's your coach. So that was that dynamic, right, and so we can't lose this series. We can't. We can't lose this series. The reason you brought Larry in is because you say he gets us over to hump. So you know it's I don't know, maybe six games, maybe that was six games as well, but yeah, I mean, you know when when you put it out there that that you've pushed all your chips in and it's it's not even about getting to the finals. It's it's when it's all a bust. When you do that, there's no way to turn that that, There's no way you can explain it away if it doesn't happen. You have to win. You have to win. And everybody felt that, the players, coaches, front office, the whole organization. No, we have to win. This is this is why we asked that question. And you know, Dan Klaras did it very famously in his uh Basketball Love Story series where the question was put everybody about relief versus joy. Yeah, this sounds like the ultimate like relief championship. I'm sure there was joy too, but it was a little bit of joy and a whole lot of relief. And but there's also a difference, and I've said this over the years to people, there's a difference in wanting to win a championship and having to win a championship. And a lot of teams and a lot of people want to win a championship it, but how many have to win it just from internal pressure, just from this is this is the culture you've built, like you have to like that. There's no I just won't do it. And there's twenty nine other teams won't do do you have to win it and and that's what we sold. We sold that to everybody that came there. This is important to you that you have to win a championship, because if you just won't to win a championship, you find any team. So you know, we pushed that heavy. It's it's funny you mentioned that, because I do think that over the course of my twenty five years now covering the league, Like it's something you start to realize over time, is that, Um, there are different levels. It is not an imperative for everybody, for every player, every coach. And we always understood that, you know, we we always understood that. You know, Okay, there's one more what if I do need to throw at you? And I know it's been written about and you've discussed it, but it's just such a fun story that I have to ask the two thousand seven Kobe Bryant and trade that never happened. Yeah, yeah, um yeah. It was um myself and Mitch cup chick Um the current GM Rober Lincoln was obviously involved because he was representing Kobe at the time. UH and Bill Davidson, the Pistols owner and Jerry Bus. Those were the people that knew the deal. UM. Wes Cup and I went back and forth about parameters. Um. This is when Kobe was saying I want out, you know, like he's not trying to win, I want out. Uh. It was two teams that Mitch felt like had enough pieces to do a deal for Kobe. It was us in Chicago. Uh. Mitch called and said, look, love to work out something with you. Take us a couple of days to work it out, and then we agree on the deal. And then um, at the time, Kobe is the only player that had a no trade in his contract, and so UM the um. So it says, look, as you know, Joe, Kobe has a no trade, so he has to approve of this. But we're gonna take this to him, and I'm going to take this to Dr Buss. He did. Dr Buss said, okay, they took it to Kobe and he's Mitch told me that Kobe said that I need twenty four hours or forty eight hours or something to discuss this with my family, Like, look, I need time to discuss it with my family. And I think Dr Buss was like, no, we need an hour, we need uh an answer in the next day or whatever. And Kobe didn't want to be forced into having to make a decision that quick. And so this is Mitch said to me. Mits said, Joe, look, Dr Buss has given him like a day and if he doesn't, Dr Buss is pulling out and he's done. And and Kobe refused to make a decision. He wasn't like, no, you know, you're not gonna make me make a decision in one day. It was like, I need a couple of days to meet my family and think about this. And uh, and he didn't. Uh, he didn't make a decision in twenty four hours. And Dr Bus said, that's it. I'm out. We tried to make a deal. You wouldn't make a decision. We're gonna move forward. And the trade was done, and Mits called me and said, Joe, uh, we're out. Dr bus Is said no, He's told Kobe, if you're not gonna make a decision right now, we're done trying to trade you and we're gonna go forward. And we hang up, and I Robert Linkol and I have laughed about this, like perhaps said, soho, I mean it was how would I bet it was ten twelve years before anybody ever brought that up, Like nobody ever said a word about that could never happen now, could never have and they would be tweeted and and like zero I'm talking about. A decade goes by when finally someone I don't even know who it was mentioned I was like, whoa they know about this? And so blink and I have laughed about this before, like man, this was like code of silence. Man, not a word. I don't know how a win or whatever it got out, but I'm telling you a decade went by, how it and not a word? Did you think you had it? Like, did you think all right that the cope Kobe's gonna sign off will be good? Did you like did you were you already like thinking ahead to like we've got this and now it's gonna onto the next thing, like we're gonna start planning for our new team around code. I thought it was going to work. But but here's to think in any um trade or transactions that you're doing, the longer it takes, the more chances it's not gonna happen. So when it didn't happen right away and time started going by, you know, over that twenty four hour period or whatever. I I realized, okay, this could this could go off track. But when we hung up though, when we hung up, when when you hang up and Mids says, okay, we have to do like, okay, we gotta deal, and I called Davidson. He calls Dr Bus and say, look what we have a deal and things Kobe got will prove it. You know, at that moment, you're going, Okay, this could happen, you know what I mean. And so you're not quite popping champagne, but you know what, You're feeling good. Yeah, and you you're you're silent about it. You're not talking with anyone else about this. You know, you this is under wraps and no one else knows and you're just waiting to see how it plays out. This would have been like spring summer, right because his Milt, his Milt, Kobe's meltdown. It was a very public meltdown that year. He goes on radio, he talked to stephen A, he talked to a bunch of people. He like, he's at the summer of two seven. I think it was. It was in the midst of the playoffs, because I remember, I can I can remember being in a hotel room somewhere covering the playoffs for The New York Times. I was in maybe Houston or somewhere watching on TV because now I've got to write about this too. I'm not covering a playoff series. Someone I remember just this, this whole meltdown happening, UM and Kobe's going after on one radio show after another after another. UM. And that was obviously a massive, massive story at the time. So that was in the spring. That was probably you know, second third round of playoffs, I'm thinking, UM, And so any talk to you guys would have had would have probably been deeper that spring or maybe into the summer. And then there was there was there were reports that it was close with Chicago, and of course the the you know, the flash forward on this for people who again need the the the reminder on this, it's whatever six seven, eight months later that they make the trade for Pallagasoul and the next thing you know, the Lakers are back in the finals. Next thing you know, they're winning two championships after that. UM, and you know, all of history is different in Kobe Spence's entire career with the Lakers, but that close, as I'm holding my fingers apart to to him being a Piston. Absolutely, yeah, it was that close. And um, um, you know, there are a lot of teams to have these type of stories, the almost trade, the almost signing, or the almost draft like and you know, for my tenure there, that was obviously the biggest one, the biggest almost you know, as you could have you know, uh, actually agreeing I on the deal with with with with Mitt you know, to do this, you know, incredible. I mean, there are a lot of great what ifs in this league, in the history of this league. That one's an all timer. I mean, as you say, every team's got a guy that they thought they were going to get her almost had but not at Kobe's left, Like those are those are extremely rare. Yeah, yeah, it's and I knew that at the time. I knew how rare it was. Phenomenal. Um glad we had time to go down this one last chance, one last memory lane thread there. Appreciate that, Joe, Thank you for spending the time. Thanks for having here is Tim Frank, Thank you for the hospitality. Appreciate it. We got again sometimes appreciate I love it, man, I anytime, anytime out Okay, that's it for today's show. My thanks again to Joe do Ours. Thanks to Tim Frank and Tim Cook at the NBA for helping facilitate. Thanks as always to our producer Shelby Royston. Thank you all for listening. Remember you can hear Chris Mannox and Me every Tuesday on the Crossover with all the latest NBA chatter, and then on Friday's It's Me and a Guest. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to The Crossover where you get your podcasts, and hit me with all your feedback on Twitter at Howard Backban