The CountryThe Country 20/08/24: Damien O'Connor talks to Jamie Mackay
Labour's Trade spokesperson is back for his "bi-monthly public flogging" on The Country. So what does he make of the 20 Government actions that have freed up the rural economy? And why have we only got 23 million sheep, where we used to have in excess of 70 million? What about the ETS (Emperor's New Clothes) settings update announced by the Government this morning?
When our next guest, former Minister of Agriculture current Labor Trade spokesperson Damian O'Connor was farming in the eighties just as I were, Damien, we had over seventy million sheep. Where have they all gone?
Good afternoon, Good afternoon, Jamie. I'm not quite sure. We haven't been nice enough to them and have disappeared. And it's been a long slow decline. It's a pretty stee one, really, and I think the demise of any real income from wall has just exacerbated that. Then it's seen, of course conversion into forestry and some of those farms as well. But it's been a long, slow decline and a sad one when there is a lot of country around New Zealand that has just ideally suited for sheep. If we could just get some more income from them.
Yeah, fair enough. Are we in danger of that country going into trees? I know that carbon farming's not really a thing now, but we've reset the ets scheme. I don't fully understand that it's the Emperor's new clothes to me, but are we going to make that country more attractive for trees than livestock?
I don't know what you say carbon farm is no longer. You know, the carbon price has gone down, probably teporarily, i'd suggest, and there's been a bit of confusion about the market and about the ages. I know people are scratching their heads, but you blame it's going to be a well, no, I don't blame them at all, except it's a long plate. It's a thirty year play. And so you know, if you had enough faith to plant in trees and just think that you're going to make it fortunate and a couple of years and then flog it off, and you know, maybe you're in the wrong game. But I think long term decarbonization, the value of the board itself and the ongoing income from carbon you know, it's a pretty strong proposition, which is why a lot of people bought Lando planted.
Have you read the press release outsort a week or so ago from Todd McLay about the twenty government actions that they've put in place to free up the rural economy, and a lot of these are just straight out I'm doing your work. Let me throw some at your damien disbanding hewaker echinoa, removing agriculture from the ets, restoring common sense to intensive winter grazing and stock exclusion, commencing an independent review of biogenic and methane establishing a pastoral group for methane reduction, launching a select committee into a banking inquiry. And I'm sure you agree on the latter. What all the rest of your failed policies.
Jamie, I don't need a press release with our toilet roll to tell me what they're not doing. What I'm looking forward to seeing is what they are doing. And if you've read in Farmers Weekly August the fifth very good opinion piece here, China is growing a lot greener than we think, and there's some pretty kind of sober messages in there for us. That is, if we don't keep ahead and keep up with at least with China's changing direction and its approach to decarbonization, we could be left flat footed and not able to supply what is our single biggest market. So you know, I want to see what the government's doing about that challenge, not what it's not doing.
Were you forced into agricultural policy that you didn't really want to push through by the more woke members of the labor government, especially twenty to twenty three.
No, No, I think some of the things that we did might have gone a little far or may have you know, we're technically correct and we could have adjusted them. But everything that we were trying to do better standards for animal welfare, to make sure that we don't have images of cows and body and mud up to the you know, the hops you know, walking around packs around the world. We didn't want that. We had to have all the ways that you know, moving in the right direction over it. You know, that's the right thing to do to try and actually improve the systems on farms so that when people are to give out our products, we've got the data to back it up. And I think if you read this article here, it says quite fairly data is absolutely critical. You know, having systems on farm that can prove what you supply your process and what they supply to the consumers is true to label, really important as we go for all of those things were necessary we were moving ahead. Here. W Ekina was our attempt to ask the industry what they thought they should do to meet our Carlent targets. They didn't. They couldn't arrive at the hard decisions. They couldn't work out what they should do, and so they threw it back at us and then criticized us for it. So you know, we want to see what the government is going to do, not what it's not going to do.
Well. It certainly wants to ensure farming survives in the short term. And I'm not sure and hang on, and I'm not sure that would have happened under yours, and I'm not sure that would have happened under your leadership. But I know when I was changing to you yesterday, Damien, you were very critical of the government taking a short term view on agriculture.
It is it is, and in fact, if you go into a meat industry, you know, if things have got a lot better of farming since the government came in, then I want to talk to someone who believes that, because it isn't. It's still the challenge, the same challenging world of skyrocketing prices for inputs post COVID. They have been coming down, they were coming down under us, but it's still the lag is still following through and it's making it tough across industries. We've got electricity companies that were part privatized by your mate John Key and watering the system and taking huge profits when we need a carbonization, we need to use our renewable energy in better ways. So all is the structure that that you know we.
Well, okay, well let's have it. Let's have a look at energy dayn now, hand on heart. You as a government completely cocked this up banning further gas and oil exploration. We have effectively because it's not raining run out of energy in this country.
No nothing that nothing around exploration parents is affecting anything that goes on today. These are twenty year horizons. So that so that that band was effectively to say that we've got to phase out long term out of gas. We've still got a lot of gas available and we should use what we had a lot more astutily, which is what many people are doing. In the meantime. Let's move to decarbonize in the way that we know that we can use our renewable energies in better ways and not brought the system as we're seen by the big companies at the marketIn.
Well, the carbon farmers are the carbon farmers are rauting the system. You've got to remember, Damien, under your leadership, along with your mate David Parker, you were going to put hang on you were going to put twenty percent of New Zealand sheep and beef farmers out of business. Tell me how that's gone was for an economy struggling to pay the bills.
Jamie, that's a completely inaccurate quote. What it said is that profitability for twenty percent of the farmers will go down. Now, it didn't say they were going to go out of business. Indeed, the prices that we're seeing now, you know, for wall for meat, the profitability of many farms, regardless of what the government's done, has gone down, and it does go up and down from time to time. This was an indication of if we'd implemented all of those things, yes, it would have been a hit on geystock. We accept that we had a long lead in time to address those issues.
Here's some text feedback coming in thick and fast. When you're on you're good for ratings. Damien, all of the sheep have gone. All of the sheep have gone because Damien, well well, won't let me read out. The text is text, All of the sheep have gone as Damien took away any confidence in the sector, allowing trees to be planted everywhere, and then tax the hell out of the ones who chose to hang on in there via a tokenistic methane tax.
Well, it's all wrong. I don't except just because someone sends something in doesn't mean to say it's true.
Jamie, Well, just because you're telling me something on this show doesn't mean it's true what you were going to put. You were going to put twenty sheep and bee farmers. I'll talk to Kate Ackland later in the hour and I'll get her opinion on it. You were going to put twenty percent of sheep and beef farmers out of business under Hewoking economy.
Not anyone who says that is completely inaccurate. It's wrong. We weren't going to put twenty percent. That profitability was going to go down on some of those marginal farms as it is at the moment, until we can get better prices for meat, until it can get more money for wool. It's kind of be a struggle for many drystock farmers because internationally, you know, the input costs are going to continue to climb. They might drop back occasionally, but they're going to climb because you've got to cut the fertilize it a long way. You've got to cut a lot of the inputs. The technology that we use, you know, it comes from other markets, and so we've got to get more money for what we do. That's when it comes to some of the pasture fed beef promoting that I absolutely agree with it. Some providence, some stories about what we do from this country and how we produce our food. It's a great story. We just don't get out there and tell it often enough. So there is potential, but it will require cooperation in competition, and.
You're losing me telling us stories about it. You're losing me. Just you tell me a story about the banking inquiry. You and I Domien often agree to disagree. We might agree on this one. Are the banks ripping farmers off? And I want to hear from the farmers? Five double O nine's our text line. I'll be very interested to know out there farming in New Zealand are your floating rates going down? I want to talk to you about banking very much.
Can I tell you the banks have been doing this for decades. The banks have been but all the blame was apportioned on us as in government. No one actually attacked banks when we were in government. But now it's all of a sudden, it's the bank's fault. It's kind of timely, and it's a little frustrating. Yes, the banks have been exploiting farmers for a long time and making good money from people who work twenty six hours a day because they love the land, and that has to change. I support the inquiry to shame that that and you can talk to Bruce Willis on this where I challenged him when he was chairman of Federated Farmers to say, why aren't you challenging the banks when I, with one other person, was the only one standing up against what loans.
A final comment from you, Jasina's going to be speaking at the US Democratic National Convention in Chicago. Are you excited about that or is yesterday's Should we be excited?
Yes, we should, because I think we have to hope that come at a House wins the presidency in the US, because if she doesn't and Donald Trump gets in, we're all going to face some big challenges around trade into that market and to taris that he's going to impose. Indeed, the issue of democracy across the Western world will be at risk.
Damien O'Connor, always good to have a discussion slash debat on the Country.
Thanks for your time, beds, Jamie
