Appo Cha production.

Appo Cha production.

Photo record. Don't try and make you uncomfortable as.

Photo record. Don't try and make you uncomfortable as.

My name is Brent Simpson. I'm the host of the Clink podcast Stories of Redemption. I was a career criminal, drug importer and involved in bike clubs.

My name is Brent Simpson. I'm the host of the Clink podcast Stories of Redemption. I was a career criminal, drug importer and involved in bike clubs.

Gary Jubilin's my name. I was a cop for over thirty years in New South Wales Police. The majority of that time was spent in homicide. I now hosts a podcast series called Eye Catch Killers What Brings Us here?

Gary Jubilin's my name. I was a cop for over thirty years in New South Wales Police. The majority of that time was spent in homicide. I now hosts a podcast series called Eye Catch Killers What Brings Us here?

My podcast talks about stories of redemption and to be honest with you, mate, I wanted to sit down with you today and actually do something no one's done before and put the gloves on rather than take them off, because I think it's about time the two blakes like ourselves had to know bullshit conversation about what truly goes on behind the scenes.

My podcast talks about stories of redemption and to be honest with you, mate, I wanted to sit down with you today and actually do something no one's done before and put the gloves on rather than take them off, because I think it's about time the two blakes like ourselves had to know bullshit conversation about what truly goes on behind the scenes.

All right, well, I haven't got the problem with that. I wasn't sure which way it was going to go, but let's do it.

All right, well, I haven't got the problem with that. I wasn't sure which way it was going to go, but let's do it.

Well, you got invited up here, and firstly, I appreciate you taking the time to come up here. And yeah, fair enough, I bullshitted and said that it was coming up to do a joint I guess podcast for both of us. But I thought about it and I thought, no, fuck that fuck. Okay, you know when has anyone ever sat down with you and truly had it out with you? And I guess here I am ready to have a crackback. So for everybody out there listening, this is going to be something a little bit different. I think to your podcasts and that my podcast has had, and I think the list out there would like to know a little bit more about the who's and the whys. Why did you for starters? Why would you want to be a cop?

Well, you got invited up here, and firstly, I appreciate you taking the time to come up here. And yeah, fair enough, I bullshitted and said that it was coming up to do a joint I guess podcast for both of us. But I thought about it and I thought, no, fuck that fuck. Okay, you know when has anyone ever sat down with you and truly had it out with you? And I guess here I am ready to have a crackback. So for everybody out there listening, this is going to be something a little bit different. I think to your podcasts and that my podcast has had, and I think the list out there would like to know a little bit more about the who's and the whys. Why did you for starters? Why would you want to be a cop?

Okay, well, bull shit off the table, then that's where we're going. I can tell you why I wanted to be a cop. I didn't join to do something good for society. I joined because it looked like an exciting job for me. I didn't have a problem with enforcing rules. If rules are there, they're there for a reason. I joined it just for the excitement. But while I found Brent as I was doing it, I think I was doing some good stuff.

Okay, well, bull shit off the table, then that's where we're going. I can tell you why I wanted to be a cop. I didn't join to do something good for society. I joined because it looked like an exciting job for me. I didn't have a problem with enforcing rules. If rules are there, they're there for a reason. I joined it just for the excitement. But while I found Brent as I was doing it, I think I was doing some good stuff.

You're saying, enjoy it for the excitement. The excitement, What what's the excitement of locking people up? Like? I get it, And I'll give you credit where credit's due. I'm not going to take it away from you because I think what you have done in the latter part of your career, I don't know too many people that could have actually gone through those things. There's traumatic situations, the cases that you worked on, and the credit to you working in a space where you brought pedophiles to the surface. You expose them missing beautiful young children. Mate. I look, I'm not going to not going to sit here and say that that in any way, shape or form is something that you know. I'm against because I commend that that takes a lot of courage. But I also too, as someone who's dealt with a lot of ship cops over the years and copped a lot of ship from them. Why what do you get out of What do you get out of chasing bikes or career criminals? That are you know?

You're saying, enjoy it for the excitement. The excitement, What what's the excitement of locking people up? Like? I get it, And I'll give you credit where credit's due. I'm not going to take it away from you because I think what you have done in the latter part of your career, I don't know too many people that could have actually gone through those things. There's traumatic situations, the cases that you worked on, and the credit to you working in a space where you brought pedophiles to the surface. You expose them missing beautiful young children. Mate. I look, I'm not going to not going to sit here and say that that in any way, shape or form is something that you know. I'm against because I commend that that takes a lot of courage. But I also too, as someone who's dealt with a lot of ship cops over the years and copped a lot of ship from them. Why what do you get out of What do you get out of chasing bikes or career criminals? That are you know?

What is it? No, I'm happy you asked that question because I want to answer it. When I first started in the cops, I was naive, young, ignorant, as we all are when we're young fellas and young women. But the longer I stayed in the cops, in the area of work, I gravitated towards as a criminal investigator. I know your background as a bikey, Like, yeah, you guys out of the charter. You don't like cops, you don't talk to cops. I get future.

What is it? No, I'm happy you asked that question because I want to answer it. When I first started in the cops, I was naive, young, ignorant, as we all are when we're young fellas and young women. But the longer I stayed in the cops, in the area of work, I gravitated towards as a criminal investigator. I know your background as a bikey, Like, yeah, you guys out of the charter. You don't like cops, you don't talk to cops. I get future.

He's made it sick. I mean, at the end of the day, there was nothing worse than having a copper kicking your front fucking doors in front of your kids. You know what I mean, Rip your house to pieces, tell your missus to go sit in the corner, shutow mouth. Like we talk about the way that we speak to women and children today as men, and all this sort of shit, and you know, like, I get it. There's there's a way of things to be executed and done. And obviously intel that comes in that these places may have firearms, could be violent offenders, what have you. I get all that, but take that out on me, don't take that out on my family.

He's made it sick. I mean, at the end of the day, there was nothing worse than having a copper kicking your front fucking doors in front of your kids. You know what I mean, Rip your house to pieces, tell your missus to go sit in the corner, shutow mouth. Like we talk about the way that we speak to women and children today as men, and all this sort of shit, and you know, like, I get it. There's there's a way of things to be executed and done. And obviously intel that comes in that these places may have firearms, could be violent offenders, what have you. I get all that, but take that out on me, don't take that out on my family.

I make this point. I make this point because I'm not I'm not going to defend cops across the board, but I'm not going to throw cops under the bus across the board. There's some good cops and there's some bad, bad cops. Can you vouch for every member of an OMCG.

I make this point. I make this point because I'm not I'm not going to defend cops across the board, but I'm not going to throw cops under the bus across the board. There's some good cops and there's some bad, bad cops. Can you vouch for every member of an OMCG.

NO, And at the end of the day, I'm not here to vouch for anybody bar myself as you are, and look I to this day, you know, and I swear by it. I don't personally have any involvement in that space anymore. I don't live my life around crime and outlaw motorcycle clubs. I still do have a lot of respect for a lot of members, absolutely because I know that they are genuinely good humans. I think, like everything in life, you know, we're judged by whom we associate with. Do I think that every man is a bad man? Absolutely nice? Like you go to a jail, Yeah, Do you think that everybody in a jail, everybody that's been locked up, is just fucking shit? Do you think that they're bad? Because I know for a fact that they're not. No.

NO, And at the end of the day, I'm not here to vouch for anybody bar myself as you are, and look I to this day, you know, and I swear by it. I don't personally have any involvement in that space anymore. I don't live my life around crime and outlaw motorcycle clubs. I still do have a lot of respect for a lot of members, absolutely because I know that they are genuinely good humans. I think, like everything in life, you know, we're judged by whom we associate with. Do I think that every man is a bad man? Absolutely nice? Like you go to a jail, Yeah, Do you think that everybody in a jail, everybody that's been locked up, is just fucking shit? Do you think that they're bad? Because I know for a fact that they're not. No.

And look, when I say I changed my mind, I'd say I've opened my mind rather than change my mind when I joined the cops, and I bring it back. Yeah, if you're going to do anything in life, at least evolve as you go through life, learn lessons. When I joined the cops, it was pretty black and white for me. Yeah, bad guys, good guys. You know, we were dressed in blue. The bad guys. We chased and put them in jail, move onto the next thing. But there's more that you can do in policing like this. I want to justify police, and I understand where you're coming from, and if you've had your personal experiences as you talk, I had a caved when I was in the cops, and maybe you understand this. I'd go after you, and I'd go after you hard. I make no apologies for it. I wouldn't go after your family. I wouldn't humiliate you in front of your kids.

And look, when I say I changed my mind, I'd say I've opened my mind rather than change my mind when I joined the cops, and I bring it back. Yeah, if you're going to do anything in life, at least evolve as you go through life, learn lessons. When I joined the cops, it was pretty black and white for me. Yeah, bad guys, good guys. You know, we were dressed in blue. The bad guys. We chased and put them in jail, move onto the next thing. But there's more that you can do in policing like this. I want to justify police, and I understand where you're coming from, and if you've had your personal experiences as you talk, I had a caved when I was in the cops, and maybe you understand this. I'd go after you, and I'd go after you hard. I make no apologies for it. I wouldn't go after your family. I wouldn't humiliate you in front of your kids.

That's not And how many years did you spend in the police.

That's not And how many years did you spend in the police.

Force over thirty five thirty.

Force over thirty five thirty.

So you're obviously involved in organized crime and all that sort of stuff.

So you're obviously involved in organized crime and all that sort of stuff.

The majority of my career was as a besides tactical policing, was also major crime, major crime.

The majority of my career was as a besides tactical policing, was also major crime, major crime.

So therefore, anyone like myself with the background OMCG, organized crime, importation, any of this sort of major crime, robbery squad and all this sort of stuff, you would have had a hand in. Yeah, So there would you not say that there are heavy handed tactics that police do use that do then affect family members.

So therefore, anyone like myself with the background OMCG, organized crime, importation, any of this sort of major crime, robbery squad and all this sort of stuff, you would have had a hand in. Yeah, So there would you not say that there are heavy handed tactics that police do use that do then affect family members.

There's consequences, there's consequences by your actions. I wouldn't set out to humiliate a family member, to upset children. I think there's a no go there in my book.

There's consequences, there's consequences by your actions. I wouldn't set out to humiliate a family member, to upset children. I think there's a no go there in my book.

There there's no go in that book, across the board, or you know, in any underworld style of living.

There there's no go in that book, across the board, or you know, in any underworld style of living.

So I put it this way. If if there's family there, I used to hate, Yeah, if I'm locking up someone like you, if the parents are there or someone's there, treating with dignity, And it was told to me, And this is this is where I'm saying, Brent, I've learned. I'm not making any apologies for anything I've done the cops, but I work closely with Sarah ull A forensic psychologists on some a lot of homicide investigations, and i'd rad a life. I'd go off half beat and say this Blake's done this, he must be a shithead, and yeah, a bad guy. And she was at pain to explain to me just because someone does something bad doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. Yeah. I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but that started gradually working its way into my mind, and I saw that people do make mistakes. We all make mistakes, and I've made mistakes. I live with them. I learned by them. So I don't judge everyone, but for me to slam all Bikis and or to you to slam all cops, I think we've got to break it down because I'm not going to vouch for every cop, but I will vouch for the ones that I know. There's the way I say employees, I've met some of the most impressive people in my life and some of the most drop kicks in my life within that organization. The antagonism between omcgs and cops. I was in the gang squad. I was a detective inspector in the gang squad right around the time just set the period of time where that stuff happened between the common Cero's and the Hells Angels at the airport. So I saw what was going on, I think, and you might have a different view. There was a perception that what goes on in OMCG gang stays within the gangs, and innocent people don't get caught up. That's where the line was crossed, and I think it changed the landscape forever in law enforcement and OMCGS. When that ship went down in the airport, you can't have people bashed like that in a public, public place and changed the landscape. But I during my career, like working gang squad or when I was in homicide paths across with OMCG members individually, I've got to sit down. I've got to say, I sit down, and quite often there's a bit of respect for the way that they live their life, so there's not that antagonism. But when if you're coming at me as in fuck you you're a cop, we hate cops, well, stupid me is going to go, well, fuck you, I hate you too, and it escalates that way. I think, yeah, I don't think it serves either side very well.

So I put it this way. If if there's family there, I used to hate, Yeah, if I'm locking up someone like you, if the parents are there or someone's there, treating with dignity, And it was told to me, And this is this is where I'm saying, Brent, I've learned. I'm not making any apologies for anything I've done the cops, but I work closely with Sarah ull A forensic psychologists on some a lot of homicide investigations, and i'd rad a life. I'd go off half beat and say this Blake's done this, he must be a shithead, and yeah, a bad guy. And she was at pain to explain to me just because someone does something bad doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. Yeah. I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but that started gradually working its way into my mind, and I saw that people do make mistakes. We all make mistakes, and I've made mistakes. I live with them. I learned by them. So I don't judge everyone, but for me to slam all Bikis and or to you to slam all cops, I think we've got to break it down because I'm not going to vouch for every cop, but I will vouch for the ones that I know. There's the way I say employees, I've met some of the most impressive people in my life and some of the most drop kicks in my life within that organization. The antagonism between omcgs and cops. I was in the gang squad. I was a detective inspector in the gang squad right around the time just set the period of time where that stuff happened between the common Cero's and the Hells Angels at the airport. So I saw what was going on, I think, and you might have a different view. There was a perception that what goes on in OMCG gang stays within the gangs, and innocent people don't get caught up. That's where the line was crossed, and I think it changed the landscape forever in law enforcement and OMCGS. When that ship went down in the airport, you can't have people bashed like that in a public, public place and changed the landscape. But I during my career, like working gang squad or when I was in homicide paths across with OMCG members individually, I've got to sit down. I've got to say, I sit down, and quite often there's a bit of respect for the way that they live their life, so there's not that antagonism. But when if you're coming at me as in fuck you you're a cop, we hate cops, well, stupid me is going to go, well, fuck you, I hate you too, and it escalates that way. I think, yeah, I don't think it serves either side very well.

I know, for me personally, and I make this fairly clear, I am and have no longer been a part of OMCG lifestyle now for a long long time. I think twenty and ten twenty eleven was my final days of ever donning a set of colors. I you know, as I said, to this day, still hold a lot of regard and respect for a lot of great men whom I grew up with as seniors or you know, people I looked up to. Someone who didn't have family, who didn't have brothers, who was brought around a strong brotherhood and a camaraderie. I can't speak for today, and I'm not about to speak for today, so I make no words negative or positive in reference to how things are structured today. I'm only speaking from my perspective of when I was what I see today. I don't agree with a lot of it. You talk about crossing that line, I feel that the line's got cross lost well and truly some time ago. To be specific. I'm not going to sort of sit here and throw those dates or times or actions into place, because I don't feel that that's something that I need to touch on. But I have to agree that the days of you know, publicly taking action for things that are happening within certain spaces, they were always done out of mind, out of sight, so to speak. It was never involved with women, it was never involved with children, was never done within a workplace. Today, I don't think that those values align. I will say that much. And once again, that's just me seeing things as they are. That's not me speaking factually because I'm not involved in the lifestyle. You're an excop, you know, there's a lot of things that we're seeing today that the way that the police are dealing with organized crime very different to obviously the time when you were actively in the force and me actively as a club member. I mean, how do you see that today and where it's at.

I know, for me personally, and I make this fairly clear, I am and have no longer been a part of OMCG lifestyle now for a long long time. I think twenty and ten twenty eleven was my final days of ever donning a set of colors. I you know, as I said, to this day, still hold a lot of regard and respect for a lot of great men whom I grew up with as seniors or you know, people I looked up to. Someone who didn't have family, who didn't have brothers, who was brought around a strong brotherhood and a camaraderie. I can't speak for today, and I'm not about to speak for today, so I make no words negative or positive in reference to how things are structured today. I'm only speaking from my perspective of when I was what I see today. I don't agree with a lot of it. You talk about crossing that line, I feel that the line's got cross lost well and truly some time ago. To be specific. I'm not going to sort of sit here and throw those dates or times or actions into place, because I don't feel that that's something that I need to touch on. But I have to agree that the days of you know, publicly taking action for things that are happening within certain spaces, they were always done out of mind, out of sight, so to speak. It was never involved with women, it was never involved with children, was never done within a workplace. Today, I don't think that those values align. I will say that much. And once again, that's just me seeing things as they are. That's not me speaking factually because I'm not involved in the lifestyle. You're an excop, you know, there's a lot of things that we're seeing today that the way that the police are dealing with organized crime very different to obviously the time when you were actively in the force and me actively as a club member. I mean, how do you see that today and where it's at.

I got to say, and this is not swinging a vote here for law enforcement, but I reckon it would be a hard gig being ak trying to make a dollar these days with technology the way it is seen what's happened now. I don't know they'll shift their focus when I say they are talking collectively, it doesn't have to be OMCG, any sort of organized crime situation, shift their attention on how they're going to do it. But I wouldn't like to be trying to commit a crime these days. I think the pendulum swung in front in favor of law enforcement. With all the technology. You walk out on the street now and yeah, we can pretty well track you.

I got to say, and this is not swinging a vote here for law enforcement, but I reckon it would be a hard gig being ak trying to make a dollar these days with technology the way it is seen what's happened now. I don't know they'll shift their focus when I say they are talking collectively, it doesn't have to be OMCG, any sort of organized crime situation, shift their attention on how they're going to do it. But I wouldn't like to be trying to commit a crime these days. I think the pendulum swung in front in favor of law enforcement. With all the technology. You walk out on the street now and yeah, we can pretty well track you.

I totally agree, And to be honest with you, it fathoms me because I sit back now and you know you often ponder on the how's the wires and the waves, and to me, when you weigh it up, I think, to myself, no matter what the maybe the short reward would be long term, you're fucked. Technology has caught up so much and I think we see this from the latest with the ghost without going down that rabbit hole and on all this sort of stuff. You know, Like, I just think that the days are gone of being able to be under the radar, you know, making an earn in a way that was I guess non legal if you will.

I totally agree, And to be honest with you, it fathoms me because I sit back now and you know you often ponder on the how's the wires and the waves, and to me, when you weigh it up, I think, to myself, no matter what the maybe the short reward would be long term, you're fucked. Technology has caught up so much and I think we see this from the latest with the ghost without going down that rabbit hole and on all this sort of stuff. You know, Like, I just think that the days are gone of being able to be under the radar, you know, making an earn in a way that was I guess non legal if you will.

Yeah, well, the world, the world has changed. I missed aspects of it. I like the world, you know, I embraced technology, or that technology got myself in the trouble recording a conversation on the phone.

Yeah, well, the world, the world has changed. I missed aspects of it. I like the world, you know, I embraced technology, or that technology got myself in the trouble recording a conversation on the phone.

But so just on that, are you are you classed as a criminal?

But so just on that, are you are you classed as a criminal?

Yeah, yeah, well hang on, hang on, so Gary jubilant, Yeah, the ones, the glorified detective that did some amazing things has now been seen to be classed as someone with a criminal conviction.

Yeah, yeah, well hang on, hang on, so Gary jubilant, Yeah, the ones, the glorified detective that did some amazing things has now been seen to be classed as someone with a criminal conviction.

I've got and it hit me. It hit me now that you've you've dug deep, now haven't your brain?

I've got and it hit me. It hit me now that you've you've dug deep, now haven't your brain?

I say this is a podcast because of the Q which I'm thinking you are. You know, we all do our podcast and we all make them all all pretty and nice, and we do things. And although this is not at once again uncensored, it's the clink, you know, I mean, we're keeping it very open, very real, unscripted, but I have to ask the question, and because I'm sure there are so many people who are listening to this today and go, yeah, okay, well you've got Sime their interview and Gary jubilant ex detective will hang on a sec. What makes you so much different to me and everybody else out there now that has a criminal record.

I say this is a podcast because of the Q which I'm thinking you are. You know, we all do our podcast and we all make them all all pretty and nice, and we do things. And although this is not at once again uncensored, it's the clink, you know, I mean, we're keeping it very open, very real, unscripted, but I have to ask the question, and because I'm sure there are so many people who are listening to this today and go, yeah, okay, well you've got Sime their interview and Gary jubilant ex detective will hang on a sec. What makes you so much different to me and everybody else out there now that has a criminal record.

Well, I just say, I don't have a problem with you. You're going hard because if you don't go hard, I can't. I can't defend myself. So yeah, yeah, I'm a convicted criminal, and I get called that on social media and comments there. The other day, I wanted to work over in America to do some stuff for the podcast. I had the visa rejected because I'm I don't know what and the tourist criminal.

Well, I just say, I don't have a problem with you. You're going hard because if you don't go hard, I can't. I can't defend myself. So yeah, yeah, I'm a convicted criminal, and I get called that on social media and comments there. The other day, I wanted to work over in America to do some stuff for the podcast. I had the visa rejected because I'm I don't know what and the tourist criminal.

How does that feel? Well? Does that feel good? I compan it serious, mate, because I can tell you how I fucking feels when my wife's threatened and told that she's going to go back to New Zealand and I won't see my kids because I can never get into New Zealand because I have no right due to my ex gang affiliations and criminality. You're someone who's upheld the law. If that's corrected, I say that right upheld it upheld up over that I'll get corrected somewhere along joke's aside, You're now sitting in the same boat as many of us with criminal convictions.

How does that feel? Well? Does that feel good? I compan it serious, mate, because I can tell you how I fucking feels when my wife's threatened and told that she's going to go back to New Zealand and I won't see my kids because I can never get into New Zealand because I have no right due to my ex gang affiliations and criminality. You're someone who's upheld the law. If that's corrected, I say that right upheld it upheld up over that I'll get corrected somewhere along joke's aside, You're now sitting in the same boat as many of us with criminal convictions.

Well, okay, As I said, life's a learning process, and I wind it back even even further when I was first charge and when I had to appear at court and when I was fighting it. I thought it hard in court. And I make no apologies for what I did. I make no apologies for the stance.

Well, okay, As I said, life's a learning process, and I wind it back even even further when I was first charge and when I had to appear at court and when I was fighting it. I thought it hard in court. And I make no apologies for what I did. I make no apologies for the stance.

I know. I'm a very sorry person. Can you make fuck all apologies? I was about the tenth time I've heard you so far by fifteen minutes already that you make no apology.

I know. I'm a very sorry person. Can you make fuck all apologies? I was about the tenth time I've heard you so far by fifteen minutes already that you make no apology.

I apologize all the time. But I owned my shit, and I owned what I did. But what I wanted to say is that I, for the first time felt what it was like having the weight of the whole state coming after you, the resources of the police coming after you, and I got to say, it felt quite intimidating. And I'm a person that was set up probably best out of anyone to handle that situation, in that the allegations weren't something horrendous. It wasn't sort of something to be ashamed of. The consequences weren't extreme. I wasn't going to be locked away for the next twenty years. But having the full resources of the state coming after you, I felt how if it was, And it made me reflect on stuff that I've done in the cops again, not looking back and going and maybe I shouldn't have done that, but more of an understanding if it was someone like you, what it feels like if you've got charges coming, it's ship and then you've got to go face the court and all this crap that goes in with the court and the brief of evidence, and then you've got to serve the brief and then the response and all the money that you spend.

I apologize all the time. But I owned my shit, and I owned what I did. But what I wanted to say is that I, for the first time felt what it was like having the weight of the whole state coming after you, the resources of the police coming after you, and I got to say, it felt quite intimidating. And I'm a person that was set up probably best out of anyone to handle that situation, in that the allegations weren't something horrendous. It wasn't sort of something to be ashamed of. The consequences weren't extreme. I wasn't going to be locked away for the next twenty years. But having the full resources of the state coming after you, I felt how if it was, And it made me reflect on stuff that I've done in the cops again, not looking back and going and maybe I shouldn't have done that, but more of an understanding if it was someone like you, what it feels like if you've got charges coming, it's ship and then you've got to go face the court and all this crap that goes in with the court and the brief of evidence, and then you've got to serve the brief and then the response and all the money that you spend.

So no favors in reference to, you know, having to seek lawyers or leading later anything like this, just because you once are serving off none of that. You basically now I've been stripped of anything other than just being Joe's citizen who's now been charged, has a criminal record and now must front the courts.

So no favors in reference to, you know, having to seek lawyers or leading later anything like this, just because you once are serving off none of that. You basically now I've been stripped of anything other than just being Joe's citizen who's now been charged, has a criminal record and now must front the courts.

Charge convicted and front front the courts. But if anything, and I tried to take positives from negatives and trust me that there was low points when that happened. I was in the thick of my career. I was enjoying what I was doing. I had the passion and it was taken away from me overnight. So there was a low point. But then people smart other than me, going well, yeah, wake up to yourself. It's not the end of the world. And I see what some other people are being through the people that the families are victims of homicides and different things, and I think, well, you've been a bit of a softy here, like it's not that bad. Just get on with your life. And that's that's what I've chosen to do. But it has changed changed my thinking, and yeah, I'd like to think I'm a better person for it. I don't want to give credit to any of those idiots that caused all this drama on me, but I think I'm a better person for it. It's a more understanding. I've looked at your side of life, people like yourself, and I'm not probably as judgmental as I perhaps was when I was in the cops, which I think is a good thing.

Charge convicted and front front the courts. But if anything, and I tried to take positives from negatives and trust me that there was low points when that happened. I was in the thick of my career. I was enjoying what I was doing. I had the passion and it was taken away from me overnight. So there was a low point. But then people smart other than me, going well, yeah, wake up to yourself. It's not the end of the world. And I see what some other people are being through the people that the families are victims of homicides and different things, and I think, well, you've been a bit of a softy here, like it's not that bad. Just get on with your life. And that's that's what I've chosen to do. But it has changed changed my thinking, and yeah, I'd like to think I'm a better person for it. I don't want to give credit to any of those idiots that caused all this drama on me, but I think I'm a better person for it. It's a more understanding. I've looked at your side of life, people like yourself, and I'm not probably as judgmental as I perhaps was when I was in the cops, which I think is a good thing.

I do too, and I can't wait to have you know. Our part of this podcast move into that stage because there's some things that you have done and are doing there. I will leave all open for you. I talk about it, yeah, and I think it's important because you know, here you are one minute being that cop that's you know, literally putting people in jail. And as I said, we will touch on it shortly. I just want to and look. Asked if I can't go down this road. Was this in reference your charges to a very sensitive case involving a young person who was missing. Yeah. I don't want to descart for the respect of the families and someone saying names or when anything like that, but as someone who is a moralistic man and somebody whom came from a code and still lives by a code, it's just how it is. I personally don't look at you in that respect for what you have been alleged to have done. You were trying to protect and get to the bottom of an unsolved matter that related to a child, as a father, as a human, I can't. I can't sit here and call you a piece of shit, your weak dog, and all this sort of shit, Like if we had met fifteen years ago and you were in the cops and you fary long concern. You are just a low cunt, you know what I mean. That would have been an interesting well there was every chance, you know what I mean. But you do why you've been charged and no longer are you any way, shape or form attached to any police service. You're a podcaster who has a background as I am. I'm not a criminal. I have no IMC connection as such. Today I'm a father and a podcaster and a hard working man. So we're on even ground there. But that's that's a tough call to see why you've now got a criminal record.

I do too, and I can't wait to have you know. Our part of this podcast move into that stage because there's some things that you have done and are doing there. I will leave all open for you. I talk about it, yeah, and I think it's important because you know, here you are one minute being that cop that's you know, literally putting people in jail. And as I said, we will touch on it shortly. I just want to and look. Asked if I can't go down this road. Was this in reference your charges to a very sensitive case involving a young person who was missing. Yeah. I don't want to descart for the respect of the families and someone saying names or when anything like that, but as someone who is a moralistic man and somebody whom came from a code and still lives by a code, it's just how it is. I personally don't look at you in that respect for what you have been alleged to have done. You were trying to protect and get to the bottom of an unsolved matter that related to a child, as a father, as a human, I can't. I can't sit here and call you a piece of shit, your weak dog, and all this sort of shit, Like if we had met fifteen years ago and you were in the cops and you fary long concern. You are just a low cunt, you know what I mean. That would have been an interesting well there was every chance, you know what I mean. But you do why you've been charged and no longer are you any way, shape or form attached to any police service. You're a podcaster who has a background as I am. I'm not a criminal. I have no IMC connection as such. Today I'm a father and a podcaster and a hard working man. So we're on even ground there. But that's that's a tough call to see why you've now got a criminal record.

Yeah, look like life's not not fair. Well, I'll mentioned the case because it's public record. That was three year old whim Tyrell, the young boy in the spider Man and suit that disappeared up at Benerroon.

Yeah, look like life's not not fair. Well, I'll mentioned the case because it's public record. That was three year old whim Tyrell, the young boy in the spider Man and suit that disappeared up at Benerroon.

Drive breaking absolutely destray.

Drive breaking absolutely destray.

So yeah, I ran the investigation for four years. I took it out over five months after he disappeared and headed up and then I was taken off because I was recording a conversation on telephone. On my telephone, I didn't hide with a person of interest, a person involved in that investigation that I wanted to speak to that I might also add, had lawfully approved listening devices in his house. So that's without getting in the nitty gritty of the offenses. And you know, I'm putting people before the court, so I'd be a bit hypocritically if I don't accept the decision of the court. You know, my whole career was putting people before the court. So I just got to cop it on the chin what I say. I'm not ashamed of it. That's you know, I'm not ashamed of what I did. I didn't do it for any any ulterior motive. I'm not some I just want to touch it.

So yeah, I ran the investigation for four years. I took it out over five months after he disappeared and headed up and then I was taken off because I was recording a conversation on telephone. On my telephone, I didn't hide with a person of interest, a person involved in that investigation that I wanted to speak to that I might also add, had lawfully approved listening devices in his house. So that's without getting in the nitty gritty of the offenses. And you know, I'm putting people before the court, so I'd be a bit hypocritically if I don't accept the decision of the court. You know, my whole career was putting people before the court. So I just got to cop it on the chin what I say. I'm not ashamed of it. That's you know, I'm not ashamed of what I did. I didn't do it for any any ulterior motive. I'm not some I just want to touch it.

I don't think you should be ashamed like I do find it personally. I think there'd be a lot of people out there that what you were doing was a very honorable thing. In reference to finding answers about young Will Will it will.

I don't think you should be ashamed like I do find it personally. I think there'd be a lot of people out there that what you were doing was a very honorable thing. In reference to finding answers about young Will Will it will.

Entire you got to like there's because I was in the cops before the Royal Commission came through. I'm talking New South Wales, so I was working in the arm told up squad and there's a lot of shame that came out of the Royal Commission about stuff that cops were doing. And I know in Queensland corruption and things that came out, So I understand what can happen is if you take shortcuts or just go one step too far. So I understand there become a slippery slide and you lose your moral compass. I've seen it because I worked in major crime before the Royal Commission came through, so I know the impact of it. So what I did on the Tyoral investigation, I don't believe that it was a case of being corrupt. I was doing what I thought needed to be done to find out what happened to a three year old child disappeared. And I might add still to this day, ten years down the track, and this is a sad part about it. We still don't know what's happened in the wind. Absolutely and if one thing you say, I have no regrets. So one regret I've got is that the controversy that I've been called up with, the infighting between the police, really our focus should be on finding William Tyrol. Like I'm not apologizing for what I've done, but when I say, you know, all this in fighting or all the games that are going on within the police, it's a shame that we're not all just heading in the same direction trying to find out what happened to Wiim. But can I ask you some questions now now that you've.

Entire you got to like there's because I was in the cops before the Royal Commission came through. I'm talking New South Wales, so I was working in the arm told up squad and there's a lot of shame that came out of the Royal Commission about stuff that cops were doing. And I know in Queensland corruption and things that came out, So I understand what can happen is if you take shortcuts or just go one step too far. So I understand there become a slippery slide and you lose your moral compass. I've seen it because I worked in major crime before the Royal Commission came through, so I know the impact of it. So what I did on the Tyoral investigation, I don't believe that it was a case of being corrupt. I was doing what I thought needed to be done to find out what happened to a three year old child disappeared. And I might add still to this day, ten years down the track, and this is a sad part about it. We still don't know what's happened in the wind. Absolutely and if one thing you say, I have no regrets. So one regret I've got is that the controversy that I've been called up with, the infighting between the police, really our focus should be on finding William Tyrol. Like I'm not apologizing for what I've done, but when I say, you know, all this in fighting or all the games that are going on within the police, it's a shame that we're not all just heading in the same direction trying to find out what happened to Wiim. But can I ask you some questions now now that you've.

Just let me finish for a second, because likes on the bandwagon of the far all right, Yeah, and you're someone who the first person been to literally sit down with and chew because normally it's me on the other end of it getting hammered by your ex mates. Thinking about the situation and all the values and the trust that you had within your beliefs of your career, do you feel that there's some part of corruption still within that sector?

Just let me finish for a second, because likes on the bandwagon of the far all right, Yeah, and you're someone who the first person been to literally sit down with and chew because normally it's me on the other end of it getting hammered by your ex mates. Thinking about the situation and all the values and the trust that you had within your beliefs of your career, do you feel that there's some part of corruption still within that sector?

The way I look at corruption these specially after your experience, if you're not properly resourcing an investigation, if your focus is not serving the public, I think that's as corrupt as corruption was in the pre where people were taking dollars or people taking backrives and that, or letting people get off or fudging brufs, all that corruption that was exposed. That's bad. But I think if you underresource things and don't focus on what the public's expectation are or give crime figures out there, I think that's just as bad as corruption. So I reckon policing. This is my take on policing and I'm not saying this to pissing anyone's pockets, but I'm saying we're public servants. As a public servant, that's pretty easy. What you're meant to do, You're meant to serve the public. So a police force should be serving the public. What I see in policing organizations and they can't attract cops at the moment across the country, which is really sad because I think we're also better if you've got good cops. Is that there's people that are caught up with their own agenda, seeing what they can take from the cops, not what they can give to the cops. I always thought we're in there to help the community, do the right thing, do the work. That was my focus, the focus of the people I looked up to, the people I worked with, I respected, that's what we wanted to do. But there were certain individuals that were just focused on what can I get out of the cops, how can I get promoted, what can I get from this, which I think that's where it goes wrong. But corruption, I don't know. I've been I have limited contact with policing now. Sadly that was sort of cut off from me when I was charged and convicted. But it saddens me that you're not getting good people in there because.

The way I look at corruption these specially after your experience, if you're not properly resourcing an investigation, if your focus is not serving the public, I think that's as corrupt as corruption was in the pre where people were taking dollars or people taking backrives and that, or letting people get off or fudging brufs, all that corruption that was exposed. That's bad. But I think if you underresource things and don't focus on what the public's expectation are or give crime figures out there, I think that's just as bad as corruption. So I reckon policing. This is my take on policing and I'm not saying this to pissing anyone's pockets, but I'm saying we're public servants. As a public servant, that's pretty easy. What you're meant to do, You're meant to serve the public. So a police force should be serving the public. What I see in policing organizations and they can't attract cops at the moment across the country, which is really sad because I think we're also better if you've got good cops. Is that there's people that are caught up with their own agenda, seeing what they can take from the cops, not what they can give to the cops. I always thought we're in there to help the community, do the right thing, do the work. That was my focus, the focus of the people I looked up to, the people I worked with, I respected, that's what we wanted to do. But there were certain individuals that were just focused on what can I get out of the cops, how can I get promoted, what can I get from this, which I think that's where it goes wrong. But corruption, I don't know. I've been I have limited contact with policing now. Sadly that was sort of cut off from me when I was charged and convicted. But it saddens me that you're not getting good people in there because.

Are you looked at though by the police force now as another criminal.

Are you looked at though by the police force now as another criminal.

Certain members of New South Wales Police. But collectively the amount of support I get across the board is quite humbling. Might just be a simple thing of someone coming up to me in the street and saying something and the irony of yeah, that I'm judged by certain people within New South Wales Police, not the whole of New South Wales Police, but other police forces don't seem to have a problem with me or Laura.

Certain members of New South Wales Police. But collectively the amount of support I get across the board is quite humbling. Might just be a simple thing of someone coming up to me in the street and saying something and the irony of yeah, that I'm judged by certain people within New South Wales Police, not the whole of New South Wales Police, but other police forces don't seem to have a problem with me or Laura.

And I'll just basically clearly say to you that you know, I have nothing but respect for what you were trying to achieve. And I feel that you know, any low piece of shit out there that's gone and done what they've done to any child, people like yourself, they need more of to be able to take action. And we talk about you know, crime's atrocities based around you know, children and pedophiles, and as someone who I am a survivor of sexual abuse and you know, for me it's been very traumatic. Forty eight years of more sorry, forty four years of my life is where it started. So you know, when I see somebody out there going into bat to try and prevent that from happening, or bring justice to a scumbag like that, how can I not sort of, I guess look at it from a productive point of view. Yeah, okay, you're a cop. I was a crim But at the end of the day, yeah, you can't go to jail and a pedophile walk through the main and get a pat on the back and a shake and a hand and a huk. It just doesn't happen. So what's the difference, Yeah, you know what I mean?

And I'll just basically clearly say to you that you know, I have nothing but respect for what you were trying to achieve. And I feel that you know, any low piece of shit out there that's gone and done what they've done to any child, people like yourself, they need more of to be able to take action. And we talk about you know, crime's atrocities based around you know, children and pedophiles, and as someone who I am a survivor of sexual abuse and you know, for me it's been very traumatic. Forty eight years of more sorry, forty four years of my life is where it started. So you know, when I see somebody out there going into bat to try and prevent that from happening, or bring justice to a scumbag like that, how can I not sort of, I guess look at it from a productive point of view. Yeah, okay, you're a cop. I was a crim But at the end of the day, yeah, you can't go to jail and a pedophile walk through the main and get a pat on the back and a shake and a hand and a huk. It just doesn't happen. So what's the difference, Yeah, you know what I mean?

Well, I do know what you mean, and you're quite right. There's crimes and there's crimes, and when you're talking to crime on a child, there's no mitigating circumstances, and that no excuse whatsoever you say, I don't have regrets or don't say sorry. My regret is if I knew I was going to be taken off in the manner I was, I would have gone harder. Instead of working twenty hours a day, I would have worked twenty two hours a day. Like this sits with me that this is unresolved, unresolved issue. But yeah, I'm oping the people who are working on it. Now, you come up with something and get it, get a result, because we need to need to get that result. But yeah, policing and what I wanted to ask you still.

Well, I do know what you mean, and you're quite right. There's crimes and there's crimes, and when you're talking to crime on a child, there's no mitigating circumstances, and that no excuse whatsoever you say, I don't have regrets or don't say sorry. My regret is if I knew I was going to be taken off in the manner I was, I would have gone harder. Instead of working twenty hours a day, I would have worked twenty two hours a day. Like this sits with me that this is unresolved, unresolved issue. But yeah, I'm oping the people who are working on it. Now, you come up with something and get it, get a result, because we need to need to get that result. But yeah, policing and what I wanted to ask you still.

Go for it, I said the other I'd copy the literally like the punt.

Go for it, I said the other I'd copy the literally like the punt.

The with with o mcgs and members and when I do get to meet them, not collectively where it's a group of cops and a group of bikes because everyone's bridged up and no one's really communicating, but when I've sat down actually spoken to some blakes or blokes I know socially, nothing to do with the cops. I just know them in my in my world, we've got a lot in common. There's there's a lot in common. But you guys have this code where you just got to hate us. Now, where where does that come from?

The with with o mcgs and members and when I do get to meet them, not collectively where it's a group of cops and a group of bikes because everyone's bridged up and no one's really communicating, but when I've sat down actually spoken to some blakes or blokes I know socially, nothing to do with the cops. I just know them in my in my world, we've got a lot in common. There's there's a lot in common. But you guys have this code where you just got to hate us. Now, where where does that come from?

Okay, so let me just take it a step back even further. Few years so before a lot of members, and I say this as a general thing because I can there's a lot of members out there who end up joining clubs because of one a camaraderie, our brotherhood. And I'm speaking of when I came in. I'm forty eight. I was involved since I was seventeen, eighteen, I started hanging around clubs. I was a streat kid from Campbelltown, and you know, back then there was the ReBs that were very very strong, the bannets, and you know in that inner city sort of in a Western Sydney sort of area. As a young person growing up on the streets, it was tough. It was hard, you know, what you had to do to just keep shoes on your feet. As you're growing up, you're doing whatever you're doing to make money to survive. Then all of a sudden there's a bit of street cred. So you know, at that stage, you're not looking at becoming a member of an OMCG. It's an evulsion of your circ ccumstances, your lifestyle. And this is what a lot of people don't understand. There's a lot more underlying to so many members, a lot of traumas, a lot of things that members don't talk about. There's a lot of hardened men there that have been hurt and broken as young men, young boys. And I'm open to speak about my own journey in respect to that. You know, like I always said that as a sergeant, I was always willing and able to do and go whatever was dealt with needed to be done. But stepping away from that and looking at me as a man and understanding who I was. I was a scared little boy inside a set of colors. Now, the colors never ever made the member. Today, I can't say once again that that may be how it is. But back in the day, you had to be able to stand on your own two feet. It didn't just come to you. Weren't just handed a set of colors. It had to come with a lot of hard work and you standing up as a strong person, a reputable person. Someone could turn to your brother and know you've got your brother's back. Your brother could rely on you. So much more involved than what the public perceives it to be. It wasn't always based around money. You couldn't buy your way in. You know, you had to earn it. A lot of brothers had died over the years, you know, Like you know, for you to wear a set of colors that have been worn by men that had lost their lives, that's huge. So you know, where does the hatred come into all that? The police would be so hens on back then, Like I can tell you now, Campbelltown Police Station was rife with it they would flog the fuck out of you. This is before they brought in all the cameras. There was that many black spots in that police station. There was one sergeant that I knew that knew my story and he's passed on now, and I'll give credit to him. He would whenever I knew he was on, there was every chance that I would get bail because he knew that I had nothing, and you know, he knew I was copping a hard time. I was a shit bag. I was doing what I was doing. Don't worry about that. I won't deny that, you know what I mean, Like, for what I've been charged with, I'm guilty of it. There's no denial of that to date. Let me just put that in there before. That's just about to date. I just want to put that on the fucking record from there. That's not even but hear me out. So therefore, there was a lot of a lot of heavy handedness, a lot of flog, and a lot of you know, like you get put in the back of the bullwag and you'd be having your head punched in while your hands are cuffed behind your back. Now, you can't cuff juveniles with their hands behind their back back then they would, they'd flog the fuck out of you. They'd drag you through, throw your head first into the cells like the ship that we used to cop was unbelievable. Now people think that that's all, that's all bullshit. Thankfully, a lot of commissions that have brought all this factual evidence to surface, and the heavy handedness of plea has been exposed. To answer a question, that's where the hatred begins. Why would I respect? Walking down the street some prick that I know that's taken me in handcuffed behind my back, flogged the fuck out of me, laughed at me in front of his colleagues, and they've all sat there and thought it was funny, kicking me while I'm down, watching me screaming, and at that case, as a young kid, sometimes in tears, begging them's to stop. Why would I respect? And then it grows and it becomes more hatred than obviously that next level.

Okay, so let me just take it a step back even further. Few years so before a lot of members, and I say this as a general thing because I can there's a lot of members out there who end up joining clubs because of one a camaraderie, our brotherhood. And I'm speaking of when I came in. I'm forty eight. I was involved since I was seventeen, eighteen, I started hanging around clubs. I was a streat kid from Campbelltown, and you know, back then there was the ReBs that were very very strong, the bannets, and you know in that inner city sort of in a Western Sydney sort of area. As a young person growing up on the streets, it was tough. It was hard, you know, what you had to do to just keep shoes on your feet. As you're growing up, you're doing whatever you're doing to make money to survive. Then all of a sudden there's a bit of street cred. So you know, at that stage, you're not looking at becoming a member of an OMCG. It's an evulsion of your circ ccumstances, your lifestyle. And this is what a lot of people don't understand. There's a lot more underlying to so many members, a lot of traumas, a lot of things that members don't talk about. There's a lot of hardened men there that have been hurt and broken as young men, young boys. And I'm open to speak about my own journey in respect to that. You know, like I always said that as a sergeant, I was always willing and able to do and go whatever was dealt with needed to be done. But stepping away from that and looking at me as a man and understanding who I was. I was a scared little boy inside a set of colors. Now, the colors never ever made the member. Today, I can't say once again that that may be how it is. But back in the day, you had to be able to stand on your own two feet. It didn't just come to you. Weren't just handed a set of colors. It had to come with a lot of hard work and you standing up as a strong person, a reputable person. Someone could turn to your brother and know you've got your brother's back. Your brother could rely on you. So much more involved than what the public perceives it to be. It wasn't always based around money. You couldn't buy your way in. You know, you had to earn it. A lot of brothers had died over the years, you know, Like you know, for you to wear a set of colors that have been worn by men that had lost their lives, that's huge. So you know, where does the hatred come into all that? The police would be so hens on back then, Like I can tell you now, Campbelltown Police Station was rife with it they would flog the fuck out of you. This is before they brought in all the cameras. There was that many black spots in that police station. There was one sergeant that I knew that knew my story and he's passed on now, and I'll give credit to him. He would whenever I knew he was on, there was every chance that I would get bail because he knew that I had nothing, and you know, he knew I was copping a hard time. I was a shit bag. I was doing what I was doing. Don't worry about that. I won't deny that, you know what I mean, Like, for what I've been charged with, I'm guilty of it. There's no denial of that to date. Let me just put that in there before. That's just about to date. I just want to put that on the fucking record from there. That's not even but hear me out. So therefore, there was a lot of a lot of heavy handedness, a lot of flog, and a lot of you know, like you get put in the back of the bullwag and you'd be having your head punched in while your hands are cuffed behind your back. Now, you can't cuff juveniles with their hands behind their back back then they would, they'd flog the fuck out of you. They'd drag you through, throw your head first into the cells like the ship that we used to cop was unbelievable. Now people think that that's all, that's all bullshit. Thankfully, a lot of commissions that have brought all this factual evidence to surface, and the heavy handedness of plea has been exposed. To answer a question, that's where the hatred begins. Why would I respect? Walking down the street some prick that I know that's taken me in handcuffed behind my back, flogged the fuck out of me, laughed at me in front of his colleagues, and they've all sat there and thought it was funny, kicking me while I'm down, watching me screaming, and at that case, as a young kid, sometimes in tears, begging them's to stop. Why would I respect? And then it grows and it becomes more hatred than obviously that next level.

Okay, you move.

Okay, you move.

Into that sort of from that street cred, you're moving into maybe a space of becoming a nom or a hangaround for a club. You naturally already have that hatred for the law. You know, you talk about that one percent. Then I've been molded into become that one percenter, that person that is gonna despise you as a cop or you as as a law authority.

Into that sort of from that street cred, you're moving into maybe a space of becoming a nom or a hangaround for a club. You naturally already have that hatred for the law. You know, you talk about that one percent. Then I've been molded into become that one percenter, that person that is gonna despise you as a cop or you as as a law authority.

Look when you when you explain it that way, Brent, I get it, and I just I break it down in my simple mind, how would I react if that situation, if anyone flogged me or added me, they've got an enemy for life. No, no, if so, Bus Garry.

Look when you when you explain it that way, Brent, I get it, and I just I break it down in my simple mind, how would I react if that situation, if anyone flogged me or added me, they've got an enemy for life. No, no, if so, Bus Garry.

That's how it was. And these I'm not saying this just to just to pipe up or hype up this this this chat. These are facts. This has been proven beyond doubt that these acts took place, especially you know, and I'm not just talking about Cammelltown Police Station. This is across the nation. You know, the injustices that have happened over the years to young persons which have later become some of our most notorious criminals. You know, I did an interview with Bernie Matthews. You know, God bless his soul, a beautiful man, a very intellectual man who I had the honor of having on my podcast to clink. He was in at Grafton. Now, Grafton was the old sort of place for the heaviest as well. I guess what Golden Supermax.

That's how it was. And these I'm not saying this just to just to pipe up or hype up this this this chat. These are facts. This has been proven beyond doubt that these acts took place, especially you know, and I'm not just talking about Cammelltown Police Station. This is across the nation. You know, the injustices that have happened over the years to young persons which have later become some of our most notorious criminals. You know, I did an interview with Bernie Matthews. You know, God bless his soul, a beautiful man, a very intellectual man who I had the honor of having on my podcast to clink. He was in at Grafton. Now, Grafton was the old sort of place for the heaviest as well. I guess what Golden Supermax.

Was is sorry in its day.

Was is sorry in its day.

You know, they'd literally come off the truck, they were beaten, they were strip naked. Like the atrocities that occurred to those inmates. He said to me at one stage there, I think there was maybe one out of that wing or one out of those say, for example, I think they might have been falling. Don't quote me on that. The exact number that did not become a murderer or some crime of atrocity or some horrific crime that they committed down the track, why, well, yeah, because they hated the system, they hated the authority. But why can you think about it? If they were put there because they were uncontrollable or unmanageable, the logic behind it would be not to fuck them up even more, break the cycle.

You know, they'd literally come off the truck, they were beaten, they were strip naked. Like the atrocities that occurred to those inmates. He said to me at one stage there, I think there was maybe one out of that wing or one out of those say, for example, I think they might have been falling. Don't quote me on that. The exact number that did not become a murderer or some crime of atrocity or some horrific crime that they committed down the track, why, well, yeah, because they hated the system, they hated the authority. But why can you think about it? If they were put there because they were uncontrollable or unmanageable, the logic behind it would be not to fuck them up even more, break the cycle.

Well, I want to talk about that because it's something, but it's funny. You should mention Bernie Matthews because I think we've found some common ground here. I got to know Bernie around the same time I got out of the cops. He just got out of prison. Someone put us in contact together. We met. That was a really awkward meeting. I went to his place up at Liftgow. I think it was seeing there He's looking at me. I'm looking at him, going, what the fuck are we doing? He talking to each other, but very smart man, very smart man, and he talked about those experiences to me. And when he was dying of cancer, I go visit him in hospital and I felt like he had a lot he wanted to tell, a lot, he wanted.

Well, I want to talk about that because it's something, but it's funny. You should mention Bernie Matthews because I think we've found some common ground here. I got to know Bernie around the same time I got out of the cops. He just got out of prison. Someone put us in contact together. We met. That was a really awkward meeting. I went to his place up at Liftgow. I think it was seeing there He's looking at me. I'm looking at him, going, what the fuck are we doing? He talking to each other, but very smart man, very smart man, and he talked about those experiences to me. And when he was dying of cancer, I go visit him in hospital and I felt like he had a lot he wanted to tell, a lot, he wanted.

To get I think there's a lot that went with him, and you know, like as you would have experienced having been like I at eighteen was at the sip. Yeah, that was a scary place. You know, you're looking at five years plus most blokes. I was doing two and a half on the bottom at aighten Bran.

To get I think there's a lot that went with him, and you know, like as you would have experienced having been like I at eighteen was at the sip. Yeah, that was a scary place. You know, you're looking at five years plus most blokes. I was doing two and a half on the bottom at aighten Bran.

I think there's something. Yeah, we get back to the rivalry with the cops and the bikes or cops and crooks or whatever. It just shows, like one bad cop the impact that can have if someone if some a bad cop, if that's your experience, that you can hate cops for the rest of your life. Similarly, you can have one cop that you might think decent person. And I've heard people in your situation say, well, there was this one cop that was a decent person that can change the path of their life. But I Bernie taught me not to judge. Not taught me, but the helped on that journey looking at Okay, what are we doing? What are we doing? Like do we have to hate each other? Bernie and I when he was operating and I was operating in the stick ups and he was robbing banks. If we met each other, we'd probably shoot each other.

I think there's something. Yeah, we get back to the rivalry with the cops and the bikes or cops and crooks or whatever. It just shows, like one bad cop the impact that can have if someone if some a bad cop, if that's your experience, that you can hate cops for the rest of your life. Similarly, you can have one cop that you might think decent person. And I've heard people in your situation say, well, there was this one cop that was a decent person that can change the path of their life. But I Bernie taught me not to judge. Not taught me, but the helped on that journey looking at Okay, what are we doing? What are we doing? Like do we have to hate each other? Bernie and I when he was operating and I was operating in the stick ups and he was robbing banks. If we met each other, we'd probably shoot each other.

But just a touch on that, and he's just a little bit of fact, which you would already know because you've interviewed. The one thing that Bernie always said is he never intentionally wentever and to do an unarmed robbery, to ever use the gun. He never went in there with intention to hurt anybody, and you know, and he swore by that.

But just a touch on that, and he's just a little bit of fact, which you would already know because you've interviewed. The one thing that Bernie always said is he never intentionally wentever and to do an unarmed robbery, to ever use the gun. He never went in there with intention to hurt anybody, and you know, and he swore by that.

And you know, a really interesting fact, not just with Bernie, a couple of arm robbers that I've spoken to since they didn't know about post traumatic stress and all that stuff. Correct, they walk out of the bank, and I think Russell, our good mate that also sadly passed away, walk out of the bank thinking they're good people because they didn't hurt anyone. But they hadn't at that stage even comprehended the trauma that comes from it.

And you know, a really interesting fact, not just with Bernie, a couple of arm robbers that I've spoken to since they didn't know about post traumatic stress and all that stuff. Correct, they walk out of the bank, and I think Russell, our good mate that also sadly passed away, walk out of the bank thinking they're good people because they didn't hurt anyone. But they hadn't at that stage even comprehended the trauma that comes from it.

But look, but you don't. And I did my time and I paid for my crime. You know, I got done for commercial importation. At that stage, did I think that the ongoing flow would be detrimental to the community. No, it wasn't something in my mindset that I thought about. Yet. Have I been affected by people with addiction and through addiction and you know, committing crimes to people I care about and love because they've gone on a rampage. Absolutely so did I contribute back then to that part two thousand and nine, Absolutely I was. You know, I had, and I did, and I'm convicted and done my time for it. At the time, they wouldn't have been thinking about, like you say, you know, the trauma or the PTSD that was left to the teller or the public in the in the area of the space of what too.

But look, but you don't. And I did my time and I paid for my crime. You know, I got done for commercial importation. At that stage, did I think that the ongoing flow would be detrimental to the community. No, it wasn't something in my mindset that I thought about. Yet. Have I been affected by people with addiction and through addiction and you know, committing crimes to people I care about and love because they've gone on a rampage. Absolutely so did I contribute back then to that part two thousand and nine, Absolutely I was. You know, I had, and I did, and I'm convicted and done my time for it. At the time, they wouldn't have been thinking about, like you say, you know, the trauma or the PTSD that was left to the teller or the public in the in the area of the space of what too.

You know, I think we find common ground there. You're talking about your dealings with the drugs and you didn't understand the drama that flowed on from that. You got Bernie robbing banks and thinking he's been a good fellow because he didn't shoot anyone. You got me just if a bag if you've committed a crime. I'm going to lock you up. I'm going to play hardball, lock you up. No one really like when I was locking people up when I was in the in the cops started to evolve a little bit more towards the end, but I didn't really have time to think about what if I was locking you up, I wouldn't be concerned about what was your upbringing, did your parents love you? Were you? Were you? What happened? It would have been got one, where's the next one? So we all look back and we learn. I think the fact that we're sitting down and discussing, even though you fucking ambush me, but well.

You know, I think we find common ground there. You're talking about your dealings with the drugs and you didn't understand the drama that flowed on from that. You got Bernie robbing banks and thinking he's been a good fellow because he didn't shoot anyone. You got me just if a bag if you've committed a crime. I'm going to lock you up. I'm going to play hardball, lock you up. No one really like when I was locking people up when I was in the in the cops started to evolve a little bit more towards the end, but I didn't really have time to think about what if I was locking you up, I wouldn't be concerned about what was your upbringing, did your parents love you? Were you? Were you? What happened? It would have been got one, where's the next one? So we all look back and we learn. I think the fact that we're sitting down and discussing, even though you fucking ambush me, but well.

I mean, look, at the end of the day, I didn't know how else to go about getting you here. And look, I'm not mates with cops. I don't speak to cops as simple as that, and I'm sure you have very little do with crims other than through your podcast. I felt that I've got enough front to sit down and ask somebody who knows, and I know that you're going to actually come back at me. So when I put the gloves on and I will crack together because I'm at the end of the day, you know it's me and you. There's the cameras here and the mics and made it's as real as you're going to get.

I mean, look, at the end of the day, I didn't know how else to go about getting you here. And look, I'm not mates with cops. I don't speak to cops as simple as that, and I'm sure you have very little do with crims other than through your podcast. I felt that I've got enough front to sit down and ask somebody who knows, and I know that you're going to actually come back at me. So when I put the gloves on and I will crack together because I'm at the end of the day, you know it's me and you. There's the cameras here and the mics and made it's as real as you're going to get.

Yeah, well, I respect it. And the fact that you asked me out here, because I would assume I would assume that the don't assume. Okay, that never assumed.

Yeah, well, I respect it. And the fact that you asked me out here, because I would assume I would assume that the don't assume. Okay, that never assumed.

I like to a ship.

I like to a ship.

All right, Well, I know that you'd get some shit flowing your way. Just mere fact that you're seeing in the room talking to me.

All right, Well, I know that you'd get some shit flowing your way. Just mere fact that you're seeing in the room talking to me.

That's life. And I think that's what That's what you have to realize is doesn't matter. Nobody's going to sit here and say you know that they appreciate you and like you for everything you do. There's people out there that couldn't stand half the people that I may interview, or me sitting here now questioning you on my podcast. And I use that word questioning.