The Chase Down: A Cleveland Cavaliers Pod presented by FuboJustin and Carter recap the Cleveland Cavaliers wins over the Golden State Warriors and Los Angeles Lakers. Looking at the strong play of Jarrett Allen, the playmaking of Darius Garland and the consistency of Donovan Mitchell. As well as why their offensive approach makes them unique in comparison to other top teams, and what to look for with the offense in upcoming matchups. As well as Evan Mobley's Eastern Conference Defensive Player of the Month award, and Kenny Atkinson winning Eastern Conference Coach of the Month once again.
This crowd rises to speak. What Carrow slammed it out? Car left wing, three ball perfect, the hell block, the shot at the rim pow with the left hand, and of fowl.
Welcome to Chasetown Podcast, partly Caves Media Foundly I'm your host Justin Browan. The Chase Down is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports and TV, including Vandual Sports Network without cable. There's no cost and no commitment. Try for free at FuboTV dot com Slash Calves. Since we last recorded, the Calves have gone to and Oh. They finished twenty twenty four on another winning streak, the West Coast trip that many thought, hey, you know, potentially there there's a loss mixed in there, maybe a schedule loss against the arrested Lakers team. The Calves found a way to get wins in both of those games. Evan Mobley and Kenny Atkinson add to their resumes with some more accolades and joining me today is my co host Carl Rodriguez. Carter, you doing, buddy, I'm doing well, you know, peeling back the cart and We've been talking a lot today. You and I made an appearance on the dunker Spot podcast and the Kayas Duncan earlier today. Should be going live. I'm probably tomorrow if I were to guess. So we we already taught calves for two hours today.
How's one more sound?
Look at you? You know, giving free advertising? First of all, we're at war with the dunker Spot guys, no are we. I'm wearing a totally different top now, so it's a different day, like this is how dare you? How dare you break the illusion? You're You're right though, we have been talking a good amount of Cavs. If you guys aren't already checking out the dunker Spot, you guys should be. Make sure you're subscribing there and checking out kind of the extended conversation. But I'm excited, man, Like. It was a lot of fun to get those wins in Golden State against the Lakers. I think both of those games there was times where it looked like the Cavs were tested. You know, a turnover filled, sloppy first half against the Warriors. You were wondering, okay, is you know the chaos that the Warriors are causing defensively, really giving the Cavs some issues. Are they able to define their footing? They answered the bell in the second half, Lakers kept making pushes. It looked like, you know, potentially a game that they could have lost, and they closed it out, as they've done with so many games this season. I was just incredibly impressed with both those games.
So my best friend has been in town for the week. He came into town. I threw a little New Year's party and he came in for it from California and he hadn't watched any Calves at all this year, and he's a basketball fan. I was like, Oh, it's gonna be a lot of fun, you know, like they're they're they're a blast. And then we watched that first half of the Warriors game. I was like, this is not the bill of goods I sold your brother. This game kind of sucks, but you know, in typical Calves fashion, you know, this season, like they just kind of like one or two bad quarters just aren't that meaningful to them, you know, like, you know, I got appropriately roasted during the Warriors game for insinuating that their streak of one hundred point games in every game this season might might be in jeopardy because that they had that well in hand by middle third quarter that they were going to eclipse that number. But yeah, it was ugly, but like it again, it's really cool seeing this team not just figure out their opponents but also kind of figure out themselves. You know, they don't get caught in these extended myers where things aren't working like and I think that's why part of why they are starting the way they've started this season is there's just there's no there's no stretch of play so devastating they can't come back from it because generally, either if their defense is really slipped, their offense ten to be like just they're just trading punches instead of getting run away from or if their offenses messy, their defense is keeping them in the game. And like, even watching that Warriors game, I'm like, this is the worst offensive half I've seen them play all year, and they're tied m like and like all the way through that second quarter. So I just think, again, we go back to margin for er, We go back to the way that these guys are able to, you know, play with poise and find their footing even if they stumble, Like I felt like that's what the story of that Warriors game was.
It was really impressive, and I think the guy that kind of turned it on in the second half of both of these games was Donovan Mitchell. I thought he was pressing, you know, some of those turnovers and miscues in the first half against the Warriors. I thought, you know, the shot selection wasn't as strong as it could be against the Lakers. This is something that we've seen throughout the year with Mitchell where it's you know, if he does have a stretch where he's pressing a little bit, he seems to be making those adjustments. He seems to kind of have that reflection whether you know it's it's him himself, which honestly, I think at this point it is, because it just takes, you know, a quick reset and he's locked in again. And you know, you look at the totals from both games twenty six and four against the Lakers, twenty three and four against the Warriors, and his ability to turn it on, to make those adjustments to not let you know, a bad quarter turn into a bad game. I think it is just another reason why his season has been so impressive to me, and I think you know, it's a continued and this was something we talked about with the dunker spot, but this is you know, this is another example the maturity that he's shown this season. And I continue to be impressed by his leadership and his ability to really just make sure that there is consistently a high floor with this cast team on a night to night basis.
Yeah. Man, uh, Donovan has just been incredible. Uh these last two games. I mean that Warriors game, freaking five possessions into the second half was over. You know, like so many times we give him and even on that pot appearance earlier in the day, we give Donovan credit for being kind of the the break class in case of emergency floor raiser, but like he's also thrown quite a few knockout blows this season where it was like, oh no, the game's over right the second because I decided it is, And like you know, and often self generated, Like was a single one of those threes to start the second half against Golden State assisted? I don't think so. And like when you have when you have this level of ball movement, this level of democratized offense, this and you pair that with this kind of elite shot making it just gets pretty unfair pretty quick. And I mean that's probably the best way to describe what it's like to play the Caves is unfair. You know, JJ Reddick, we're starting to get the longing comments from opposing head coaches weekly. Yeah, you know where JJ is like, you pretty much have to play a perfect game to beat that team, because I thought the Lakers gave them a pretty good shot, you know, I thought that. You know, there was a lot of conversation about Anthony Davis and Jared Allen out playing him. I don't think that's because AD had a bad game. I thought Ad was really really good in this game. Yeah, seventeen second half points. It's just the Lakers aren't as good. Like they couldn't keep up with the Cavs shooting, they couldn't keep up at the rim, and eventually they got sunk.
Yeah, and you know this is against two solid defenses, Like the Warriors are still eight on the season, despite what the Cavs did to them. You know, they're still eight Defensively. The Lakers had been playing like a top ten defense for December. We knocked them out of that now, but you know, they had been playing a lot better and I thought that they made a smart gamble in terms of what they're able to do from a roster construction standpoint without giving up a first round pick. They went in on defense, they went in on length. They swapped the you know, the six to one D'Angelo Russell or however tall he is for Dorian Finney Smith. That's a really long team. I think you've felt it at times. They were being very disruptive, especially for a Calves team that did look a little tired on the second night of a back to back. You could tell that it was bothering them at times. But one of the things I find so interesting about how the Calves approached these defenses, as we see them get tested time and time again this year, they don't run away from the best defenders, and I find that to be an interesting difference between how they approach offense versus the Boston Celtics. Where Boston is looking to generate the mismatch, where's the weakest defender on the court. We're going to get them involved in the action right away. We're going to get a one on one situation, and because we have an elite talent, we are going to be able to score at a high level against that weaker defender on a consistent basis, or if you bring help. We got playmakers all over, we are going to get an open shot. We're going to get a good look. The Cads. I think throughout the season we have seen them, you know, really go at like a Mikhale Bridges, you know, Anthony Davis. Both of these games have that we've played against the Lakers have heavily involved the Bigs being involved. We're not running away from those challenges because there is a level of trust in what the Cads are doing. Offensively. We are going to run our actions. We think it's a good action. We don't care that you have a strong defender there. And you know, I think one of the difference is that that you see there is Boston when you look at some of their recent struggles, and I think some of it does have to do fatigue with fatigue because you know, they had such a long year last year, they played in the Olympics, They've been playing this style throughout the year. But when you're playing a lot of isolation basketball, when you're jagging up a ton of threes and you're basically playing mismatch ball, when you run up against in Orlando Magic, even though they're down Palo Bank Caron Franz Wagner, all that team has is good defenders. Pretty much, you're not able to play that mismatch basketball. And when you don't have those, you know, actions that are going to get you easier looks and you know, put you in a position to score without you know, going one on one with a good defender, you're going to be tired and you're going to be susceptible to some.
Losses, especially in the regular season. Like I remember one of the best and smartest things teams did against us in the second Lebron era, where was just switch switch guards onto Lebron because mid February Lebron does not want to have to work a mismatch thirty straight possessions.
Yep.
You know, even if you're putting a tasty mismatch on him, it's a lot of work. Like it just is you have to bump, you have to use your muscle to like and and slam into people over and over and over again, or like you know, really put the gas on. You know, it's just and I found, like you a lot of teams in that second Lebron era that did that could kind of close the talent gap, just based on Lebron not wanting to do that over and over and over again, right, And I do think it's a valid point for Boston right now where that is a big part of what they do.
Yeah, Like, I just think they've taken everything to such an extreme this year, right, Like they were already a very high isolation team. You look at the frequency, it's increased by nine percent, right Like, you look at the number three's they're taking, going from forty two a game to fifty, Like, I just feel like it's a very tiring style of un paced for sixty two against Minnesota tonight, Oh my goodness. Like, I just you know, this isn't to say, oh, you know, Boston's not a good team. I just think for from a regular season standpoint, they're almost you know, it's a it's a little too much sugar in the diet, right, Like, it is relying on their elite talent rather than their elite playmaking like that. That was one of the things that impressed me so much. And I just think when you're playing that kind of consistent mismatch basketball, which is why we were comfortable with that as a defensive approach from the Calves in both of those games. I just think that it does lead to some wear and terror. It does. It is a very very tiring side king tiring. Yeah, and so yeah, I think you're one hundred percent right. And I think that's kind of what the Calves are doing right now. Is their stuff just kind of works, you know that. And the other thing about that mismatch basketball is like, yeah, you can do it. So the Cavs don't, you know, like Darius was attacking Walker Castlar a ton against Utah Evan win after MPG a few straight possessions, Yep. And it's not that they don't do it, but it's just not the first button they push. And I just think it allows you that flexibility of like, all right, we're in a tight moment. Now let's you know, rev rev the engine a little bit, and you just again, you have a more diversified attack that way. I think the other part of it is you're less predictable, Like I think.
Just it gunks you up and you everyone knows what you're doing.
Like, well, yeah, when you when you're playing Boston, you know, okay, they're going to try to get us switch on to one of the guards, like they're going to go at Donovan, They're going to go at Darius like they no matter who they're playing, you know, you're going to kind of get that high screen to try to get that switch. I was listening to Bill Simmons podcast and he was saying, you know, I think the style of play in today's game like it's I think people are just tired of seeing that high screen and that's how all the action starts. I'm like, well, no, that's really just Boston. Like, you know, the Knicks will do that too, but like that is very much Celtics basketball. Like, not everybody is generating offense that way that consistently, whereas the Calves if you don't, if they are willing to go at everybody, If you're able and willing to run offense and attack you know, the Lakers' strongest defender and Anthony Davis and have success doing that. You know, just having real trusting in what you were running offensively, it makes you less predictable. And that was one of our biggest things that we talked about of why the offense did not translate to the playoffs in the past. You knew what the Caves were running. It was predictable. There was good stuff and there were good actions, but how it got generated was very consistent, and now it isn't right Like now you do have a multitude of guys that can initiate the offense. They can attack you in a variety of different ways. And you know, to your point about JJ saying you have to play forty eight minutes of perfect basketball to beat the Calves, they are able to throw a variety of looks at you. Like every single configuration when you look at their primary ways they play is a hit. There's the core four. When they're playing with a starting small forward, they have a plus twelve point three net rating. That's amazing when it is just Garland and Allen, a plus eleven point two net rating, that's amazing when it's Mitchell and Mobley plus fifteen point seven. Like every single one of these configurations has a net rating that's above what the Boston Celtics is for the season. I believe, like that is phenomenal, and you know they're just there isn't a chance to catch your breath when you're playing the Calves, and when they have those guys out there, the only the only scenarios where there isn't two of those guys out there is foul trouble or they are up twenty in the fourth quarter, Like that is the only time you're not dealing with two of those guys.
Yeah, they're They're awesome, man, And it was funny. I didn't watch the Lakers game live, but I just didn't. I just didn't need to check my phone. I didn't feel the need to be like, oh, I hope they're doing okay, because I'm like, yeah, they're probably gonna win. I'll catch I'll catch it hungover on the couch in the morning, which I did, and I loved it, And yeah, I just it. You know, that Lakers team had been playing well. They made a big galvanizing trade, you know, and they got good punches in that game. I mean, Reeves drops thirty six. It's a parade to the free throw line. Almost had two straight games of an individual shooting more free throws than the Cavs combined, you know, because Kumnga got that that dubious distinction the game prior. You know, Reeves drops thirty five, Ad drops twenty eight and thirteen. You know, Lebron gets his numbers as he always does, and it just really I mean, I guess the Lakers game you could say was a little close near the end, you know, they got within shouting distance. But I've just felt like the level of control from this team is pretty damn reliable.
Yeah, I think you watching it after the fact, when you knew what the result was probably made you feel a little bit better. I felt good about it particularly.
I felt like they had to work to win it.
Oh yeah, for sure. And after the third quarter, I think they were up eight or nine, and I said, let's get this. I was hanging out in game threats because I wasn't able to go out because my butt still hurt me. But I was sitting there. I was like, let's get this to sixteen by the eight minute mark. Yeahs got it to sixteen by the nine minute mark. Like it was, you know, they just kind of had one of those signature CASM runs that they've had all year, and LA found ways to fight back, and you know, it was a competitive game down the stretch that they had to earn. But you know, they're they're reliable. They're able to execute it at such a high level, even on a night where you know, Darius isn't shooting the ball well. He played about as well as you can on a night you're not shooting the ball well because the the looks he the looks he generally were phenomenal, and he was fantastic against the Warriors, knowing that first half where almost nobody was playing well, he was the lone guy playing well. And against the Lakers his playmaking was phenomenal. The two men game with him at Jared Allen, that lineup has been looking better and better recently. We talked about how we kind of expected the defensive numbers for that pairing to normalize as the opponent shooting has it's come way down, like it is looking a whole lot better, and I think their chemistry just keeps getting better and better.
But that play, the the the play to Jared where Jared then hit Darius on the cut and then Darius dove to the lane and then hit the wrap around pass back to Jarrett for the dunk.
That was just like basketball Nirvana. Man, that one was so fun. He also had probably one of the most impressive finishes I've ever seen, where he kind of he went through like three defenders and finished with the reverse off the glass, which was just absolutely absurd.
I didn't check the box score for this before I watched the game, and obviously because I was watching on DVR, I didn't watch it. I wasn't like checking at midgame. I couldn't believe he finished. I couldn't. I couldn't believe he did. He finished five of sixteen. Like my eyes were like, oh, he had a much better game than that. That's that's not true. And it all comes down to the playmaking. I mean, he even in a year where he's play made really well, I mean, he's not been a fourteen assist guy. You know, that was crazy. Fourteen assists just three turnovers. The Cavs had a one thirty offensive rating with him on the floor in that game, Like, do you know how good you have to be playing and how well you have to be helping your teammates out that I think, and when you shoot less than thirty three percent from the field and don't get to the free throw line at all in thirty two minutes, that your team is still putting up one hundred and thirty points for one hundred possessions, Like it's really, I mean, there's no better distinction I think you said this in the discord, but there's no bigger distinction between shooting well and playing well than that because a lot of times you compare bad shooting with bad play or like at the least they just can count cancel each other out. He played a great game and just didn't shoot well. Yeah, but he kept taking the right shots. Like I thought that the shot attempts there, there weren't any that felt forced. It didn't feel like he lost confidence at any point. You know, they just didn't fall. And I think that's exactly how he needs to play. And you know, to contrast that to you know, his worst game of the year in Boston, you could tell that not shooting well kind of changed his decision making. It wasn't as sharp.
And one of the things we said after that game is we need him to get to that point where he doesn't allow those poor shooting games to impact his play overall. And I think this is one of those kind of games in the right direction where you're playing against the team that has even more length than the Boston Celtics, that he is able to play a very physical style. You know, there was the rest We're letting a lot of physicality go both ways, and you know that's something that has gotten into their head historically. This is kind of the small little stuff, the little indicators that you need to pay attention to throughout a regular season that indicate, hey, maybe you know there is growth and maturity here. This is the type of growth and maturity that might lead to different results in the playoffs. And as you said, Ben, like the playmaking has been phenomenal these two games, twenty two assists to three turnovers between the Warriors and Lakers games.
He was so good against the Warriors. Man, I thought he was the only dude who had a pulse that first half, the only guy playing with any verve or sharpness, and like, he really kept them in the game. For Donovan to go ruin, ruin the game for the Warriors in the second half.
Yeah, it's so much fun to see him take his game to another level. And you know, you talk about the one thirty offensive rating that they had with him on the court this year, it is just wild that for the year it's won twenty five with him on the court, and again without Donovan Mitchell it's one thirty one for the season. Like per cleaning the glass, like that it just doesn't even make sense, and we're there's a reason the team's lost four games.
Yeah, we're in January.
We're at the halfway part of the year, and you know, we talked about it on the Dunker spot. But like Mitchell raising the floor, I don't think it's any coincidence that, you know, two of our only losses those games against the Hawks, Mitchell's feeling a little under the weather. Those were like the only games this year where he just flat out wasn't that consistent floor raiser for them and just shot poorly. Like Garland, it raises the ceiling. He's been playing at such a high level this year. I'm just really really encouraged by their ability to continue to find little things to work on throughout the regular season, you know, those little improvements, and you get to this point, like we still expect some of this to normalize, Like I still expect the three point shooting numbers for the Cavs to come down, because you know, it's just hard to fathom that this can be sustained. But you look at their record at the new year. They are the fourth team to have this type of winning percentage going into the new year. The only other teams that have done it the twenty sixteen Warriors who made the finals. If you remember, did they win? No, no, they didn't. Wow the ninety six Bowls, which you know, seventy one team they did win the championship.
Oh wow, But you would think anyone that goold would win championship.
But yeah, you would think. And then the other one is, you know, the Celtics that won. Like, there's only one team that hasn't won a championship and all three prior to the Cavs have made the NBA finals. This goes back to what we were talking about on the last podcast. But you know, it's time to accept, like, Okay, this is a team that see their season can end in a championship. We will see. You know, how they'y able to position themselves against the Celtics. You know, obviously Boston's going to be the favorite in that series. But I think that they can start feeling themselves a little bit here, man, Like they should have confidence in what they're doing.
Because they're feeling themselves.
Yeah, like they should have.
Contacted those postgames. They're feeling themselves.
They should have confidence in what they're doing because you know.
Darius Garland was like a WWE like the Rock cutting a promo with Serena winners at the end of that one, trying to get Ja to the All Star Game, and.
J dropped in ethical Hoops, which just warm my soul. I fell.
I about fell out of my chair when JA dropped in ethical hoops. I know we got to not got an ad read eventually, but damn if we don't get to jaa soon. Oh I love that man.
Yeah, well, you just stepped all over my ad read man, Like I was okay, I was trying to set us up here and then you know, now I can't even do it. You can't even you can't do work, Carter, And you know, at least I do have zoom Ai Companion to take those notes. Because only you can do your best work. Zoom Ai Companion can help you do the rest, like automatically taking notes, answering meeting questions, and helping you respond to your co worker. Available at no additional costs with eligible paid plans. We're happy with zoom Ai Companion. Carter, you are my companion on this year podcast Go Go talk about you know, the exploits of Jared Allen Well.
I just loved, I mean, obviously as an amazing game. He goes twelve or fourteen from the field, twenty seven points, fourteen boards, three blocks, you know, altered many more, had a steal as well, and I just thought it was one of his best games as a finisher, you know, a lot of really good full work. I feel like his footwork has taken just a little jump this year where he's getting himself where he's on the move and he does that one extra pivot to give himself a cleaner jump hook angle or a cleaner floater angle. You know. I just he closed down the first and second half of that game, you know, and when LA really was challenging them, he was kind of there to go blow for blow. And like there's something really demoralizing about Jared Allen runs because they're so at the rim, you know, where it's just like you're not dying too tough mid Rangers, you're dying to like consistent finishing at the rim, and it's just you feel like you can't protect your your house, you know, as the opponent. And I mean I thought he was great on Ad, even though Ad was very very good in this game. Much like the initial outing in Cleveland. I thought he really got made hay against the Lakers in transition, as is a Lakers team that does not like to run back, and Ad did a or I'm sorry, and Ja did a great job of exploiting that for a couple of great ones, including one of the best passes I've ever seen Sam Merrill throw through a crazy touch lob pass I'm happy over the top of a d to you know, I was like, damn, Sam, I didn't know. I didn't think you were going to try, because that's not an easy pass when you're going at full spreed on a fast break. But you know, I just I just feel like you have to continue to give this guy his flowers. I was actually looking up on Basketball Reference. Currently leads the team in wind shares. It's not a stat I like I'm obsessed with, but like, you know, a cumulative stat that like, you know, with a bunch of stat stuffing teammates, and he's right there at the top. Like again, I think maybe this year, more than any he's slid a bit more into the background. You know, when it was just him, Evan and and Darius, it was like a core three. They were the you know, the three amigos, and then Donovan kind of comes in and it's the four. And because I think Evan and Darius have elevated so much this year, they're rightfully getting a lot of shine yep, And that's great. But like, I just think it's important that we don't forget that this is probably the best or the second best fourth option in the league, you know. And I just think to have this guy locked up long term on you know, a pretty team friendly deal, Like, it's just really exciting to know that it's just gonna be here.
You know.
He's still young as all, still a great dude who I'm just super fond of. Off the floor, I mean again, he's dropped in ethical hoops in his post game and yeah, he was just I thought he was unbelievable. And this game even was really good against the Warriors on a game where Evan you know, gets in foul trouble and really never is able to take command of the game.
Yeah, And I think it's important to, you know, continue to highlight that Darius and Evan taking the steps forward that they have is impossible if Donovan and Jared, as you know, the veterans within the corps weren't willing to sacrifice. We weren't willing to you know, pick their spots a little bit more. And I think it's also really important that we see these Jared Allen games. He gains some of the best centers in the league. Like he was dominant over and over and over again, dominant. I almost feel like he plays better against these guys, yeah, than he does against like the dregs of the league. And you know, I don't think there's a real rhyme or reason. Like, honestly, the only center that I can't really recall Jared having a great game against is Sabonis, Like I feel like so punishing with with how he plays physically, and you know, maybe it's you're always playing Sacramento on like the end of a West Coast trip or whatever the case may be. But I feel like that's just kind of the one matchup that I don't recall him having, you know, a really big game. But you know, he had that lull where it looked like Jared wasn't having as much of an impact on the game. You're feeling him now, you are feeling him defensively, and you look at what he did against Jokic, you look at what he did against ad Like these are premier big men, top five player or in the conversation for being top five players, and he is out playing them or at least, you know, playing them to a draw and making them work.
Defending those guys to a draw, you're just gonna win. Like if Jared Allen is playing Nick Jogic to a draw in a half, like that is like the most unreal outcome for you, because these guys aren't going to be held out of the box score. That's just not how it works in this league. But like if you're matching them or making their possessions ugly or making it and like one thing I'll say, because like they're every time every time they play a good team or a good big and we come out and either on Twitter or on this podcast, we go out of our way to praise the way Jared is guarding the Yolkic's of the world, the Embids of the world. Some troglodyte will always get in our mentions and be like, look at the stat line you put up thirty you know, embiid put up thirty five, fourteen and three, And it's like, okay, sure they do that. Against everyone first and foremost. But what's special is you don't have to send six bodies to help. So Tyrese Maxi goes off for forty on a steady diet of wide open threes, or Jokic gets the Denver blender going, and you have to you and you're just constantly chasing your tail, trying to trying to keep things contained because you pretty much can be like, yeah, Jared's got him in single coverage unless he catches it so deep that we have to send to help. Like that is such a big difference in how you can guard the rest of these guys. And that's why even with these these crazy lines from these star players, you go look at the offensive rating and it's almost never as good as you think it would be for the whole team. Yeah, and you know, I think one of the teams that this CAS roster gets compared to is the twenty fourteen Spurs, right like, with the way that they democratize the offense with you know, their ability to trust everyone to hold their own defensively. And you know, one of my favorite things to point at is when Kawhi Leonard won Finals MVP guarding Lebron James Do you know what Lebron averaging in that series?
Do you know how what his efficiency was in that series? He averaged go ahead twenty eight points per game. He shot fifty seven percent from the field and fifty two percent from three like that, Like you say, twenty eight a game on fifty percent from the field and fifty two percent from three. But Kawhi Leonard to anybody that watched that series, he made him work.
Here has there ever been like a cooler moment for like if you're like a Spurs fan in that moment of Kawhi checking in and Lebron shooting free throws, looking back seeing Kawhi was coming under the game and going just.
Drop it, dropping that F bomb, that that f sharp at that point right.
Like, yeah, you I was amazing. What a moment.
You want Jared to be able to, you know, hold his own in these matchups, to make these guys work, to allow guys to have this space to do the dirty work that allows everyone else to be excellent. And honestly, I love your point about how demoralizing it must feel when Jared's cooking, because you know, various his ability to get through the lane and get them, you know, those shots in close from the defense of scrambling and he's got a smaller guy on him. You're right, like, there is no you know, when Tatums hits a couple of mid range shots over Darius, like it doesn't feel great, but.
You just kind of have to shrug and be like, well, good shot.
Yeah, but they're you know, but it's not like, well, there can't I do anything about this. If Jared happens to miss one of those shots, that feels fortunate for the most part. You know, he's from a field goal percentage standpoint, he's one of the most efficient finishers in the league. He is going to finish those little hooks around the rim. He's going to finish those dunks over people like he is just such a good finisher that like, you're not going to rely on variants to change that outcome, Like there is something structurally wrong with your defense that he is consistently getting these looks at the rim and you are not going to be able to count on the basketball gods to save you, Like that is It's a really demoralizing thing.
Yeah. I think it's one of the calves best features, the way they assault the rim as a team you know, much more. I feel like even though the shooting has been great, and the shooting is often the thing that extends the leads that you know, the cavalanches are built on three point shots right generally, But the the other part of the game where the Calves were up seventeen and you're trying to get it to you know, trying to do the old Austin card and get it within ten and you've got it to thirteen and then Darius runs a pick and roll, gets into the teeth of the defense and just drops it off to Jarrett who just lays it in two feet from the basket like it's a ah, like all your momentum kind of it's just you know, like if the cavalanch and the threes are that the haymaker to the face, you know, to go, you know UFC terms. I feel like Jared Allen layups are like leg kicks, Like they just hurt. They just hurt and make you more tentative and make you want to overreact, and then you open yourself up to those big shots to the top when you just are sick of getting your you know, your shin's chopped at like and I feel like the Cabs just again, if nothing else, the motive of this podcast has been like there's just kind of no way the Cabs can't win. There's no way that doesn't work for them.
Yeah, and we're going to continue seeing in these you know, upcoming matchups where we're going to keep looking at each of these games under a microscope and seeing, Okay, what are teams able to do to make them uncomfortable?
Right?
Like, if I want to pick knits against the Warriors, I just didn't think that we got Evan Mobley involved enough, right, Like you only played twenty four minutes because we so thoroughly handled them in the second half.
But yeah, in a lot of foul trouble. I mean, he was getting dinged up for a lot of these kaminga drives.
Yeah, yeah, that's that's fair. And you know, I've got thoughts and feelings about that, of course, because I'm me, But you know, I just felt like there's too many times where we weren't getting him those touches right where you know, yeah, he's going up against Straymon Green, but we saw him beat that focal point against Straymon Green in the first matchup, right, Like, I want to what I really want to see is that the Calves continue to implement their identity and their style play regardless of what the opponent is. I think, you know, the most interesting matchup is going to be Wednesday against Oklahoma City. You know, the Calves are so good at taking care of the basketball. The thunder create havoc. They are going to test the Calves ability to take care of the basketball. They are going to test the Cavs ability to get into what they want to run offensively. That is going to be fascinating to me, man. I want to see how that game goes. And you know you talk about, you know, the shin kicks that the Calves can deliver offensively. I think it's just as tiring that when you've been you know, exerting all that effort to defend the Caves and stop them from scoring at this you know, historic rate. You have to go on the other end and you have to deal with Evan Mobley, who just won Eastern Conference Defensive Player of the Month. This is a new award.
I was about to say it felt new. I didn't remember that one.
Yeah, he didn't remember Dyson Daniels getting in last month.
No, I did not look at you, you Casual.
I of course I was very tuned into the award and the accolades of the great Barrier Thief. But you know, I think this was absolutely deserved for Evan Mobley. I think he's been playing some of his best basketball. And you know, the NBA released one of those highlight videos of Mobley's blocks, and the thing that stuck really stuck out to me is cas game possession on every single one, like every single one. Oh there was one exception where the ball bounced in front of Sam Maryland. He could have grabbed it, and you know Brooklyn got that possession. But he is directing the ball to teammates. He is directing it to himself at a horrifying rate. Like you know, we use stocks as shorthands to combine blocks and steals. Some of his blocks are steals because he is just gathering at himself like he is. He's a freak of nature. And you know, his offense has taken such a step forward this year, but I really do feel like he is taking a step forward as a defensive anchor. The defensive rating with him without Alan is nuts. It is a one oh one point nine defensive rating. Those Mitchell and Mobley two man lineups. They're not doing great offensively yet, but oh my god, have they been fantastic defensively.
Yeah, I mean they've been, I mean and mobile in a lot of ways. Is the anchor. In the month of December when he was on the floor, they had a one hundred point eight defensive rating. I mean, they are, you know, and that's quite a few minutes. I mean, that ain't nothing. He has been just freaking phenomenal on that end. I love your point about keeping the ball in play. I think that's one of the sneaky things that he's great at, you know. I remember in the peak Dwight Howard era that, you know, because his whole thing was he would just spike the ball into the sixth row, sixteenth throw sometimes. Yeah. By the way, people are gonna not remember how good Dwight was at his best. I mean, I feel like, I feel like people don't understand the degree to which he was ruinous for offensive game plans at his best. But I remember you would always get diged for that, and I there was a stretch where I was like, are people being unfair to him? You know, like is this really like, you know, like like, yeah, is he is it asking too much to be like, Okay, you're already flying forty feet in the air to block these things. Is it really fair to ask him to have that level of control? And then you watch Mobiley and you go, yeah, that was probably fair, like because Mobiley just you know, even on possessions where he has the ability to go swat it really really hard, he just almost he's comfortable tipping it. You know, he does a lot of tipping the ball to himself or to others or just to you know, misdirect the shot while giving his team a chance. And he's just phenomenal. Man, he is just so phenomenal on that end of the floor. I feel like, you know, we got asked about his defense on the dunker spot, and you know, I think we both agree this is really kind of the first year where he seems like not only just an elite defender that makes the Caps defense better, but the guy that is the primary reason more than any other why the defense is great. And by the way, something I did check regarding team defense, because you know, there's generally been this narrative, you know, not a huge one because things are too good for almost any negative narratives to take root that the defense is worse than last year. You know, that's slipped a bit, Like the offense is way better, defense is a little worse, and the Cavs are lower. You know, season rankings wise, they were seventh last year, their eighth this year. They're about two points better per one hundred possessions on defense. Yeah, so that you know, the league average defense has gotten better, which you know, has made it seem like they've had some slippage. They have not had slippage. They're a better team on both ends of the floor.
Yeah, and you know they also a team that's been missing good defenders for some time, right, Like you know, Dean Wade, I think now being healthier and playing just at such a great level, Like he's been fantastic these last few games.
Best game on the boards he's ever had against U I want to say it was Golden State.
Yeah, Like he's he's been phenomenal. He makes a huge difference. Isaac o Korral has been out. I was happy to see Chris Fiedor mentioned that he was practicing today. That's obviously, you know, a positive step in the right direction. I'd love to have him back for for Charlotte or okay, see okay, see at the latest, let's cross our fingers and you know, do whatever we do to to bring good vibes into the universe. But like he's in his time, Max s Truce is a very good defender, and you know, he's missed the majority of the season. Like I think that there there is another gear for this team to to get to on the defensive end. But I think you're corrected in highlighting that. You know, it's been it's been a step forward. And you know, I think one of the differences between a Dwight Howard and Evan Mobley is, you know, Dwight was six ' nine Mobiley's doing this at you know, a legit seven feet. I don't know if he saw the interview that he did with ESPN today, but he was highlighting a couple of his plays, and the one on the defensive end cracked me up because he's on the other side of the basket and he was saying, how he you know, he waited an extra beat to bring the help and then just you know, came over time the block and you know, got up there on the backboard. No guys can't do that they can't wait the extra beat to you know, go underneath the basket, pop up with you know, the ability of his to get so high so quick and just get that ball in the glass like that?
Does it feel like the pogo stick stuff is even better than it was in years past? Like his I think it's probably more a result of his decisiveness in terms of how quick his jumps are than his him actually getting better at it. But man, it just feels really extra unfair how fast he gets off the floor.
And I think, you know, this is another one of those spots where the extra strength comes in because that natural movement, that ability that we talked about, Like the guy moves like wildlife. Like it doesn't look like he's exerting energy when he's moving out there, but he's covering so much ground and he's so athletic with his ability to get up. Now he's not getting bumped off his stride when he's doing this kind of stuff, you know, like whether it's someone boxing out or setting a screen, like, he's able to navigate through that. On the offensive end, he's able to navigate that more with his strength, like and I think the other component of him, you know, being controlled going up there and basically deflecting the ball rather than swatting. It is when you're not exerting all that energy to swat the ball, You're coming down more controlled because you're not you know, doing that, You're not over exerting yourself, you know, throwing your body weight out out of shape or whatever. He's just going straight up, plucking that ball out of the air and coming back down in control. And I think, you know, his footwork and just just all the details, all the boring little stuff that you might not recognize if you don't watch him on a consistent basis, It's all there. And I think that's what makes him such a special talent.
Yeah, man, he's amazing. Can we talk about Max, who I thought had what I would define as an important game against the Lakers for two reasons. Reason one, he played and I don't think was ever listed on the injury report yep, either a meaning that's a meaningful step forward. The fact that he played both legs of a back to back. You know, I think there was a general like, you know, I almost was like, well, yeah, I guess you know, at some point he is just going to be a normal NBA player, you know, and he what he needs are reps and minutes, assuming that you know, everything's going well structurally, because I do think he's looked pretty rusty to start this year. He had that really good second half in his debut, but I think he's had quite a few ugly minutes where you know, the jumper just isn't going in. You know, he shortened a lot, doesn't have his legs on to him.
It's not leaving his hand.
It's consistently Yeah, nothing I would define as you know, concerning, but like, I think he needed a game like this where he goes four of eight from three scores fifteen points. At another quarter where he makes three really was part of their third quarter efforts to kind of take control of the game or assist that. I felt like this was the best Evan two man game on my stretch.
For some maks nice. There's some really nice playmaking from him.
Uh and uh and yeah, so I felt like this was his first you know, oh there's Max. That's the Max that I was kind of like waiting to plug in. I guess I don't. Actually, I'll hold I'll let you kind of react to his game before I go to my question.
Yeah, Like I was really excited to see that, you know, playing twenty six minutes on the second night of a back to back, playing eighteen against the Warriors. Like that's a great sign, right, Like, that's showing that you know, his body's responding.
Well to this.
The fact that he looks so good moving around there, I thought was a really great sign. And you know, you're keeping an eye on those minute totals, right like, Okay, where is the minute restriction heading? How is this working out? In you know, twenty six minutes? That like that might be what it's at, Like, even if he is starting, that might be what the minute kind of load is because you know, Darius is playing thirty, right, Donovin's playing thirty, Like, you're not going to get a whole lot higher than that. So that was a really encouraging suse.
So the first game he closed.
Not only that, it was the first game that he played minutes period with the core four, right, Like that was something that you know, when he first was being reintroduced to the lineup, we said we might not see him play a single minute with a core four until he's starting again, because you know, just the way that you know the staggering works throughout the rotation throughout the night. He earned those minutes closing and those minutes one fantastic. You know, they had a plus thirty three net rating in those minutes. Like he was playing really well defensively. You saw that connective playmaking, the effect his gravity has when when he's moving around there, like all of that's really encouraging. And you know, I agree with you, I think for his confidence, for you know, just our confidence in him, like when we see him check in like that was a really really positive sign.
Yeah, I thought he was great. And that does take me to my question for you, which is how do you play putting him back in the starting lineup. If you're Kenny Atkinson, it has been our expectation that Max will get the starting spot back, but is they're in a weird I think it's a bit of a weird spot because again they're playing so well. You know, Kenny has made changes to that small forward this season. You know, Dean starts as the as the starting three. Then he gets I don't remember if he got hurt or sick, but Isaac stepped in. Isaac stepped in while he was out and never gave up the spot and now Isaac's out, And I was wondering, like when Isaac, like, let's say Isaac comes back like next week or a week and a half from now, is that is that? Do you put Isaac back in the starting lineup? Or is it time aim to just rip the band aid off and say, hey, Max is our You know, he's our guy, he is our starting small forward. He's showing enough suff do you wait for him to should have more games like he had against the Lakers? To do it?
Is it?
Approve it?
Thing?
Like how do you think you would play it? Because I don't know if there's a clean answer here.
Yeah, you know, I agree with you, So I'm going to try my best to navigate it because I agree with you that you know there isn't an easy way to play this. Like I look at him playing twenty six minutes and like he's playing twenty six minutes he could potentially start, And I think you and I have been in agreement that the best way to use Dean is as that third big right, like you want to make sure that his minutes are managed. Those have been the minutes where he's been most effective. When you look at the lineup data. Yeah, the record is really fantastic when Wade is starting, but that lineup hasn't been as strong as some of the others, right, Like that was one of the things that Kenny pointed to when keeping Isaac in that job when Wade back was you know, this lineup's just been a whole lot better than the weight. I do think it's important to note that wave lineup's gotten really good because it was pretty mediocre for the first like ten twelve games of the year. I was there, up to a nine point two net rating. I was just I was just getting to that, Oh, that's interesting. I was looking at the cleaning of the Glass, which has on NBA dot Com. Okay, yeah, yeah, Cleaning the Glass has a plus six point five, so you know, removing the garbage time. So with the Cavs, that's probably a little difficult to to, you know, delineate and figure out exactly when that starts. I was actually going to point out that, you know, the offense is coming along with that lineup we we had talked about. I think it was like at one oh seven, it's up to one fifteen, and the defense is held steady there, like it's it's starting to click. And you know, we were wondering before, is there something structurally that's making this lineup not work offensively? Both of us agreed it's probably something that's going to normalize with more minutes. It is normalizing with more minutes. But I think just in keeping Wade healthy and making you know, the rotation make the most sense possible, I think him coming off the bench is you know, probably the best kind of course of action. So the question then becomes Isaac or Max. I personally, I still feel like, you know, Max makes the most sense. We've made that case a million different times. But how I approach that.
I just don't want to Wally Pip the guy.
Yeah, Like I I think you know how I would approach it if I was Kenny Atkinson, is you know this has been our understanding from the start of the year, Like we were, we're coming into this year with the plan to start Max, We're you know, we're going to continue to find ways to utilize you kind of with this group. I think what Isaac, Max, Wade and even LeVert have to understand and probably do, is any one of them could close, like depending on what the team needs, depending how they're playing, in their minutes. Any one of those guys is going to close. And regardless of who's starting, you're all probably playing twenty two to twenty four minutes on a given night, so you're all going to be playing very similar minutes. We're going to put you in positions to succeed. You know, this is just like a procedural thing, but you know this is the tough thing. Like I wouldn't be surprised to see Kenny continue to ride the hot hand with Wade, especially when that lineup's playing. Well, maybe he does go back to Isaac and you know, allow him to have another crack at it before going back to Max. Or maybe it's just, hey, Max is off the minute restriction. Where we're going to go with, you know what what we were planning on doing from the start of the year. I don't know. I don't get paid the big bucks. I'm not. You know, two time Coach of the Month winter Kenny Atkinson, who won it again for December.
So you know, I'd love a clean sweep. You know, let's just give him all the for that for every month.
You know, let's let's let's end January with less than seven losses and I think he would have, you know, be the front runner to win again. I think he's probably the front runner to wind Coach of the Year. Let's let's let's let's run the board, Let's let's continue to just you know, make the season on our own.
Yeah, I think, Uh, I think again, it always is going to come down to, you know, communication, clear expectations, setting and like you know, and making sure everyone kind of knows the score, knows what you're thinking about, how you're thinking about it, and like, you know, the best you can provide any role player is clarity, right like these guys. You know, every time you hear from a player in a bad situation, a lot of it's like I didn't know where I stood. I didn't know what they needed to do. I didn't know where what you know, what coach thought of me, or what the coach thought I could bring. I was in the dark. So I think, you know, I trust that Kenny is the kind of dude who can communicate through these kind of things. And uh, but yeah, I mean again, it's gonna be hard because Isaac doesn't deserve to lose the starting spot that he has held down at a really really high level. By the way, I do have some concerns if we can get into angst watch just a little bit, that Isaac. What's best for Isaac might be to start and play with that that group of five dudes. He has looked so comfortable since coming into the starting lineup, uh, and I worry a little bit that a different context he might not look as comfortable and it might be a little bit harder for him to find his rhythm. Now, what's best for Isaac might not be best for the team, and that might not even be the case. So this is this is pure, pure just thought experiment stuff. But like, if it's the case, should that factor into your decision making it all? Like if you're really confident you're gonna get good minutes from Max off the bench and you're a little worried that messes up Isaac's juju, do you do you do you account for that? I don't know, it's a it's a I don't.
Think I would, because you know, that's kind of one of those things where you're going to have to learn, right, like even if it makes you uncomfortable, Like, Okay, we're going that's a great point, We're gonna we're going to work with you, but you know it's January.
Figure it out, Ice, Like.
We're going to work with you. We're going to make a point to you know, continue to find ways to empower you. But like for me personally, like when I feel best about Isaac is when he's playing shooting guard and you know he's been used as that Bruce Brown screener and he's causing havoc and he's playing downhill in those spots, Like I feel good about his ability to defend up. You know, you talk about the conversations about you know, opponents stat lines and things like that. I got caught in a debate about how good of a job he really did on Palo Bankarrow. Did you ever look at the tracking data of how Isaac did in his twenty two minutes guarding Palo No, So he guarded Palo's second most out of anyone on the team. And you know, obviously he didn't shoot well in that series, but Isaac held Palo to twenty nine percent shooting from the field and fourteen percent shooting from three, Like he was fantastic. And you know that's defending up at a six ten, very strong player that was shooting the ball very well. In that series, right, Like he's a very very valuable player and he's going to need to be part of this team moving forward. Honestly, I think the hard conversations are going to come with guys nine to ten and eleven.
Don't get to play as much for at all, maybe because it is the hardest.
I think the core guys their minutes are obviously, you know, very well earned.
And everybody going lower.
Yeah, I think the next four, honestly, like I think the next four of Max, Isaac, Lavert, and Wade, those guys are all going to have to play twenty minutes a night, like they all deserve to play twenty minutes a night. And maybe you know it's on a ninth to night basis, based on the matchup, based on who's playing well, based on okay, you know your he's feeling a little bit sore. You know, either we're going to rescue or you're just not going to get as many minutes tonight, whatever the case. Maybe maybe that's what determines whether they get twenty to twenty six minutes on a given night.
But those four, Sam, Tai and George, it's gonna be.
I think I think that's where the I think that's where you have to have those conversations. That's where you have to, you know, continue to build those guys up and make sure that they're feeling empowered, because I really do think, you know, that top eight those are the guys that when this is everyone's healthy, their minutes have to be prioritized because I think they all just are kind of that that tier above where they're bringing more than one thing to the table.
Yeah, it's uh is a great problem to have. And again we still ain't had it. This guys keep getting dinged up at the wrong time. You know. Kenny said it. Every time I think I'm about to get to eleven, I go down back down to ten. Yep, you know. And I guess who didn't practice today? Sam Merrill after hurting his ankle against the Lakers, and it feels like those an girls are just gonna bother him all year. I mean, certainly no medical professional over here, but he's had a few dust ups with him over the course of the years.
So he said to himself an interview, he said, this is something that he's just gonna have to manage moving forward.
So but yeah, so I guess we'll wait to cross that bridge. But yeah, the starting thing is interesting and I'm excited to see how it plays out.
Yeah, it just feels nice to not feel like there's a wrong answer, at least like on paper, because all three of those guys.
The strong answer is messing up your comms and hurting guys fear.
That's That's exactly the point I was going to make. On paper, it doesn't look like there's a wrong answer, but it's all about, you know, the messaging, making sure that communication is strong. But I do think the fact that you're in a situation where you're winning at such a high clip, this is such a close locker room, it does seem like, you know, the thing players consistently say is that the communication has been so strong. And also just you know, the quality of guys in that locker room, right, Like gain Wade didn't sit there in power and he came back and Isaac Whit was in that starting job, like he has been a selfless player is the entire time with the Calves, and he's found a way to make an impact in every single role. Isaac, you know, we're going to see how he adjusts. Max has embraced coming in off the bench. You know, I don't feel like there's been any drop off in terms of how hard he's playing. You know, there's rust and those type of things, but I don't think effort has been in question. So I do think that this is the right environment for it. But you know, as we continue to find little things to monitor throughout the regular season, that is certainly going to be one of them.
Yeah, well we but man, these are all champagne problems. Brother, be true. That's a happy new year to all of our all our listeners. Happy new year to the Calves. Four losses and we are in January that has banana pan cakes.
Dude, I am absolutely loving it. I'm having so much fun, you know, discussing this team, thinking back to you know, where we were at even just a year ago with you know, Garland and Mobile. We're out at this time and trying to define a rhythm and just much much, much, much much much better place. It's been a lot of fun and I cannot wait for next week. Man. I don't want to overlook Dallas because you know, they still got Kyrie Irving and you know there's talent there that's still a very good defense. You got to come home and play Charlotte. Potential of a letdown game is you like to point out, you know that first game home after a road trip, and you know, against the opponent that's not as strong, that's always a little tricky, but that game against Okay, See, I cannot wait and I can't wait for Monday's podcast. We'll be going live at eight thirty. Andrew Schleck from The Athletic is joining us. One of my favorite people to listen to, the only podcast that I'll listen to on a weekend. So I'm very, very excited to have Andrew on in preview Caasin Thunder. That will be a lot of fun. Big thanks to everyone that tuned in live on YouTube. Make sure you guys like and subscribe and click that notification bell so you know when we're going live. If you're listening to you a podcast and you want to rest leave us rating a review, subscribe unsubscribed to subscribe and help cook those books you want to be part of. To Chase down the exclusive discord chat Sunny Screenshaw, or if you to Chase down pot at gmail dot com. However you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it. Make sure you guys are staying safe out there until next time, Go Cat.
