The Technology Users Association has issued a stark warning that New Zealand risks falling further behind in the global digital economy unless the government urgently reforms its approach to digital and technology skills, with a particular focus on vocational training.
In a wide-ranging interview on this week’s episode of The Business of Tech, TUANZ CEO Craig Young expressed deep frustration at the lack of strategic leadership and investment in building the local tech talent pipeline, calling current government proposals “disappointing” and “a step backwards” for the industry.
“We’ve missed a trick here,” Young said, referring to the government’s plan to wind down the Workforce Development Councils and replace them with new industry standards boards that largely ignore the unique needs of the digital and creative sectors. We also delve into AI, cybersecurity, and the digital divide as we unpack the pressing issues outlined in the latest TUANZ digital priorities report. All that and more on episode 98 of The Business of Tech.
Our tech sector is undoubtedly one of the fastest growing areas off our economy and exporting powerhouse and yielding high salaries for those employed in it. So do we have the talent and skills pipeline to support its growth? Well, Nope, not even close. I'm Peter Griffin and on this week's episode if the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business, we're looking at one of the biggest issues facing the tech sector, an urgent need to rapidly upskill the workforce and technologies like artificial intelligence, just as our best and brightest head for the exits seeking greener pastures overseas. My guest on the pod this week is Craig Young, the long serving CEO of Two Hands, the Technology Uses Association of New Zealand, a member's based advocacy body that has done great work over the years on behalf of consumers on everything from breaking up telecoms monopoly to pushing for greater digital inclusion. Two and recently published its annual Digital Priorities Report, which rounds up the views of dozens of tech leaders looking at what we need to do in the tech and digital space to really advance our aims as a nation. It's they're a pretty frustrated bunch, with no digital strategy or even a clear roadmap for the country's approach to AI. There's a sense in the report that we're drifting along while other countries like Australia get dead serious about the opportunities and the risks that technology pose. But the most pressing issue is the tech skills gap. The government is currently revamping its approach to apprenticeships, internships and the like what's known as vocational education. It has a plan to create a group of industry skills boards. But where do tech and the creative economy fit in while bundled in with manufacturing. That's not good enough, says Craig, who wants to see finally a dedicated skills push for the knowledge economy industries. The government claims to want to double exports from over the next ten years. So here's the interview with Two Hands CEO Craig Young. Craig Young, Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing, Craig, I'm doing well. Thank you, Peter Kyodor and thank you for having me. Yeah, great to have you on. Been meaning to have you on the show because you're doing such great work. With Two Hands, an organization that's been around in New Zealand for a long time. I remember as a cadet reporter Ernie Newman was the head of Two Hands, a long serving chief executive, always had a great turn of phrase and real advocate for consumers. But just give us a little bit of background about Two Hands and the evolution of the organization over the years. You've been CEO, nowfare what coming up on ten years?
Right, Peter? Ten years and I really can't believe where that time's gone because every year is so different. You know, we've been through quite a lot during that time as well. I too remember the earning Newman days. I've been around for a while as well. I wasn't quite a cadet, but yeah, and he did a good twelve years as the CEO. And I've learned over time looking at other organizations like this, you do tend to see the ones that make the most impact, where the leader hangs around for a little while. You know, we were the Taic Communications Users Association and in those days when the nineties and early two thousands, there was a lot of issue in MAHI that needed to be done for users across the board from individuals right through to corporates, and we saw the you know, significant changes that occurred, and we sort of got to the point of when I started where we had probably won that battle, maybe not the overall war, if you want to put it that way, but when that batt also we had to sort of reshape and refigure. And it's why in twenty twenty we changed the tar in our name to technology because we recognized that there wasn't a user group for the broader tech space. But also telecommunications had morphed, had morphed in a big way to being much more than just you know, making phone calls and text messages.
Yeah, and you did, you know, I think you were integral in the early days to actually winning that war around structural separation of telecom into Chorus and Spark. You know, the work that two ADS did advocating for the consumer was absolutely integral to that. So I think kiwi's a debt of gratitude to two Ads, As you say, it's become a broader remit now and it's really encapsulated. Every year you do this Digital Priorities Report, and it's just been published Digital Priorities in twenty twenty five and I've got to say, I consider get a sense of frustration. This report is based on surveys and interviews with thirty six CIOs, chief information officers and chief technology officers. Some big names in there. If you flick through the report and you're around the tech sector, you'll know some of these people. They're really smart people, and I just get a sense reading it that they're frustrated at some of the issues that we face in the lack of progress in the digital space. There are some strengths in there, and maybe let's start on a positive note, you know, in terms of where we're at in terms of our digital infrastructure, our digital economy, the digital space in New Zealand. What are our strengths at the moment in your eyes.
That's a really good question, Peter, And you're right about the feeling that comes through. But there is some positiveness, You're absolutely right, and I think it's more frustration that we haven't made the most of what we've got. And certainly, you know the structural separation of course on a telecom the interesting just in a side there. I was actually at chorus during that time, so you know, New Zealand is a small place, so you move from one side to the other, but absolutely believe in that the cio CTOs. You know, there is some really amazing things happening in New Zealand and the technology space, and they're really keen to utilize New Zealand technology. The growth of high speed broadband is you know, obviously a key underpinning to so many things that gets done, and we see businesses taking up those services, you know, more and more, where as individuals were very quick to take it up, particularly during COVID, you know, when we wanted to stream so much TV. But you know, we're seeing different things being used. You know, the difference between when I started and now on international cables, the number of cables that we have coming into New Zealand, so our connections to the world is so much better and we see more of those occurring as well. So you know, there is some real good things about our infrastructure. We might be the last bus stop before Antarctica, but we really do have great connectivity to the rest of the world and inside our nation. Five GM mobile networks and we're going to see some upgrades to those later in the year when they all build their what's called a standalone core so that's the core of the network will be upgraded to five G and they'll be able to provide some extra services that will be amazing for us. We've done some amazing things in rural we shouldn't we shouldn't you know, step back from some of the stuff that's been done with the wireless ISPs, with the RCG. You know, the idea of sharing infrastructure is so important when it comes to the further out you get from urban. So you know, it's easy sometimes to think about the things we don't have, but we do have quite a lot, and we have some very smart people. We just don't have enough of them. Yeah, so there are some possibles. And look, one of the interesting things was after writing the report, obviously you do get sort of focused in on what you think should happen next. And one of our speakers at our recent event decided to ask is AI tool you know, can you tell me what the sense of positivity is from this report? It actually came about at six out of ten, So it's not a completely negative report. It's slightly positive. And when you talk to the CEOs etc. About their perspective on where we sit in the world, they do put us at about a sex out of ten, so not all dream and gloom.
Yeah, and as you mentioned in there, things like, you know, we've got pretty good e commerce legislation, online banking access, although you were a little bit behind on the open banking front, and it's something your predecessor, Ernie Newman is still sort of talking about, you know, the competitive issues that we have. But you know, there are some positives there in terms of the challenges and the opportun unities that we face. You know, they're pretty clear in there. You talk about escalating cybersecurity risks and a bit of complacency or under resourcing in that space, the persistent tech talent gap, and we'll talk in more detail about that. Digital inclusion is still not where it needs to be in terms of resourcing and progress we're making on that. But there was something more fundamental, I think underpinning at all, which is really a lack of visible strategic government leadership in the digital space. And I've been talking to a lot of people about that. We've had a change of government, but we are look eighteen months into this new government. They've done some things in the innovation space, big shake up underway, but let's face it, we still don't have a national digital strategy, do we.
So look, I think you're right, Peter, we don't have a national digital strategy, even though the government has talked it up and certainly when they were in opposition they were absolutely committed to using digital technology as a key growth platform. I think, you know, we'll give them some some we'll let off a little bit. They did a lot of shifting and changing last year, but unfortunately that's led to changes in their ministerial portfolios. But also I understand that it's not quite clear on who's taking ownership of digital transformation within government. It's just a bit too spread out. I think the other thing is we haven't seen a strategy for the use of AI, and we certainly know that it's a big topic of discussion aroundst MPs ministers and also on the security side. You know, the thing that we're looking for is not necessarily some great, big, long document, but it is something where government takes leadership. There's such a big part of our economy, of our population and what they do with just even everyday individuals. Having some sense of a direction that they want the nation to go in I think is really important.
Yeah, yeah, that sort of leads me to my question, what would an effect of strategy look like in your view? What are some of the sort of first practical steps that would need to happen. Obviously it has to be government and industry and other stakeholders groups in society working together. But you know, how do you start putting this together. What's your sort of dream, sort of list of things that could be got off the ground relatively quickly or should be included in a strategy.
I think what we've got to be aware of and quite clever around is the fact that technology moves so quickly, and so you know, if we want to spend months and months trying to work up a strategy developing regulation, we're going to be left behind. And that is different from the way government normally works. So we're quite clear on that. You're absolutely right, it's got to be a collaborative. It's going to be a collaborative approach government. You're actually you know, we've talked about that they're a big part of the economy. They take leadership, but we recognize, and the digital leaders did as well, that they need to be engaged and involved. And it's not just the technology industry that will be our export base. But if we want to grow our economy and grow productivity, then it's the other businesses also that need to pick up digital and do digital transformation. So I think that's the first place is trying to get those perspectives together and come up with some overriding direction, whether you want to call it a vision or just a sense of direction, and without getting to engage. I mean, the last government did have a digital strategy, but it was quite a thick document and they're basically done it them I wouldn't say they've done it themselves. That's a bit unfair, but it wasn't as collaborative as it could have been. And I think what we need to do is something that will be able to be flexible and live and change as we go. Certainly, you know, if you talk three years ago, we wouldn't have been talking about AI as much as we're talking about it now. And it's just a classic example of something that can just turn things upside down. So you've got to be able to react and cope to those sort of technology changes. You know, as well as I repeted it, we see amazing technology, you know, sort of coming and sometimes it takes a long time to come and then suddenly it's here, and so you know, you do have time to get ready for it, but you probably don't you think that way, and then suddenly you've got to do something. So it's not easy. I'm not saying it's going to be easy to sit down and do something like this, but it is a conversation and a sense of direction that we really need.
Yeah, I think a lot of people in the tech community viewed the fact that Judith Collins was having this tech portfolio elevating the position off these sorts of issues, had a bunch of portfolios that seemed to complement each other, the digitizing government portfolio. But the reality is, and obviously she's out of most of those portfolios now in favor of Shane Retti, who's a very competent minister. But there's a sense we've lost momentum. There's been a few random, sort of individual initiatives, and look, we are in a constrained time in terms of government putting money into new initiatives like digital inclusion and that sort of thing. But there's a sense halfway through this term that it's sort of lost momentum. Will that be fair.
I think you're right, Peter, and it certainly comes through, you know, a radious specific section in the report on the reaction of CEOs etc. Two Government and we asked them the specific question, We said, what have you seen from this government? And that's where things like the invisible government term came out. Disappointment I think as well. I think you're right. There was a real excitement that we could build on what had been done and that this government was going to be really focused on. And look, no disrespect to the ministers themselves, because they are very you know, passionate and they are good people, but they are loaded up. So Minister Collins was given you know, a large number of portfolios and so not everything gets the focus that it might necessarily deserve. So, you know, on that basis, that's why I think we've said government leadership is important, and the leaders that we've been talking to are you know, saying there's a gap there.
Drilling down into some of the issues that you've identified. A perennial one that comes up as cybersecurity risk. The risks are escalating and AI is increasingly having a role to play in that. Also in defense of cybersecurity, which is great. But yeah, look everywhere every time I talk to cio CTOs, they just sort of say, lookd A's frustration within their own organizations around how seriously cybersecurity is taken. What's sort of at the height of our reluctance to as a nation and individually as businesses and consumers even to really take this seriously.
I think there's a couple of things. And look, this one is not going to go away as far as I'm concerned. It's been you know, every one of the five reports we've done, this has been one of them. And it just keeps going. And you know, we could look at the stats and talk to people anecdotally about the challenges their face every day and they attack vectors that they're saying every day, you know, just growing all the time. And you talked about AI, the weaponization of AI. You know, on both sides of the of the of this. I think there's a couple of things that play into New Zealand. One is, you know I talked about earlier, we are well connected to the world. We are no longer that large little country halfway around the world. We're seen as an easy pick by some actors as not necessary to get access to things in New Zealand, but to get to go through us to other environments in other countries. So that's disappointing obviously, But it's that she'll be right attitude, I think particularly from individuals. You know, I'm nobody, Why would it happen to me, Well, you can be used to get access to somebody else, so it may not be you, But we are just one. We are part of the global population when it comes to digital where microseconds from anywhere in the world. And I think in the corporate space, you know, boards in particular have been dealing with significant issues over the last five ten years. Health and safety became a really big one, and so maybe security sort of got pushed down the list. And of course those sort of compliance issues, security issues don't necessarily easily convert to ROI and revenue and profit and all those sorts of things, and it's they're just being over I don't know whether they're seeing it and going, well, the risk isn't that great. Well, actually the risk is pretty great, and most CTOs are the ones at the forefront of that and trying to convince their boards. If you don't take security seriously, you could end up being someone like Marks and Spencers. In the UK, there's been a couple of big occurrences over there that have I think should be wake up.
Calls OPTUS In Australia that was the big one in this part of the world, which led to legislation change in terms of the penalties for data breaches, which has been pointed to here. We have very low penalties ten thousand dollars fine for Privacy Act breaches, so that is an issue in terms of what the government is doing. There was a lot of consternation about, you know, the CERT Organization being folded into the National Center for Cybersecurity in terms of, you know, what the government is doing with the malware free networks and with CERT. What's your sense on how prepared we are or how well resourced we are as a nation to tackle some of these big issues trying to identify and intercept these big threats, whether they're cyber criminal, criminals trying to scam us, or even some of the state based stuff trying to disrupt us for geopolitical reasons.
Look, it's perennial, Christian Peter and I don't think we'd ever have enough resources in there, but we've got some really good people. But I think, you know, certainly that folding of CERT into n CSC was in air pluses and minuses. I mean, I think the pros are that it's a lot closer to the mechanisms that are watching what's happening around the world and the learnings and those sorts of things. But what we lost in the immediate moment was actually the ability to communicate and collaborate with organizations and with businesses. And certainly I've been talking to them over the last couple of weeks and saying, look, you've really got to up the game and get back out there and talk to people, because that's what is going to make the difference when it comes to collaboration. So we're very keen to work with them on getting information, but building pathways backwards and forwards because businesses, particularly large corporates, rely on information that comes from there. And I'm also with you, Peter, you know, talking about what happened in Australia and the changes. I mean, we haven't seen those happen here, and I really do not want a large incident to be the cause of things changing here. You know, we really do need to get into that and unfortunately, as I said at the beginning, this is not one that's going to go away. We're just going to have to keep working at it.
And I guess related to that, you know, cybersecurity experts are really hard to recruit. The big issue I think that you've identified in twenty twenty five among priorities is this persistent tech talent gap. We sort of had this weird situation. We always have struggled to get tech people here, so we've made it attractive for people to come to New Zealand to fill that gap. Then we had a bit of a softening off the labor market. Now of course we've seen an exodus of people because of the soft economy here, people looking for greener pastures. So I think it's getting intense again. And we've seen the government, you know, we've seen digital nomad visas. We've seen the golden sort of visas for people who want to invest maybe in startups in New Zealand, put some money in and come and get a pathway to residency. So hopefully we'll get Google ex Google executives and people coming to New Zealand. But this is a persistent thing, isn't it. And we had an industry transformation plan for digital workforce and that sort of stuff got knocked on the head. Funding was pulled. What have we got now?
You know, I want to talk about the IP for a minute, because there's a lot of work that went into that. And look, whether you liked the concept of IP across the board, what happened where they just knocked all the IPS on the head was really a step backwards for technology because we had it was the first sign of actually working together to try and figure out what the funnel looks like. And certainly, you know post COVID, when you talk to most of the CEOs et cetera, they were talking about immigration settings. Well, we've done quite a bit of work in that space, but certainly over the last two years they've talked more about how do we grow this home grown talent or encourage New Zealanders to come back in these areas that we need them. And they're not always what you'd consider to be general tech that you're right, you know, the cybersecurity experts, the AI people, the data scientists. It's not just the code is that we need. It's a whole range of things. And there's been some changes since this government came in that you know, haven't really made any real help. So you've seen the ip GO and then the announcements around post tertiary or sorry tertiary education, so certainly vocational education changes. You know, this government came in with a particular policy where they wanted to unwind Tipookinger and it's driven I think a whole lot of activity and actions that haven't worked in the favor of the technology industry. And so because what we've talked about is there has to be a number of ways that people can get into this space.
And I want to talk particularly about one development that is live at the moment. There's consultation going on about this. This is the winding down of the so called workforce Development Councils, which were set up in twenty twenty really as a response to COVID. They are being replaced by these industry standards boards, and the Tertiary Education Commission has pointed out upfront there's going to be less funding for them. These are going to be boards that focus on vocational education things like internships, apprenticeships, cadet ships. But the list of boards that they're looking to set up, the very traditional construction infrastructure, trades, that sort of thing. Then you've got tech sort of bundled in with manufacturing. And I've seen a press release from Tuhas and other tech leaders basically saying this isn't good enough. We need a dedicated focus on the digital and creative economies, which includes things like video games.
Absolutely. Absolutely, We've been talking about this for years. So this is where, you know, if we want more people to take up these roles within digital technology transformation, all these different ones, we've got to think outside the box. It can't just be you go to university and to get a degree, because not everybody can afford to go to university, not everybody has the capacity to do what you do at a university. There's got to be other pathways. And you know, Peter, we've done some little things where we've gone and talked to students in areas which you typically probably wouldn't consider where people would go into tech degrees and ask them why don't you consider tech? And it usually comes down to, well, i've got to look after the family or i've got to you know, it's not an easy path. I can't see myself going to university. So these ideas of internships and apprenticeships and you know, different pathways into this US so critically important for us, and yet this announcement and proposal is basically just going, well, we're just going to focus in on the traditional ones. Well yeah, great, but give us an id ISD or do IDC or whatever you want to call it for digital technology, because putting technology in with manufacturing isn't really the answer. And actually, if you look at it, any technology qualifications or studies or tech digital, it's going to go back to the NZQA framework at TEC. So there'll be no if it put into encouraging these others. Now, I do want to say, Peter, there are some organizations, private sector organizations that are looking at these things and implementing them themselves, but that's only going to scratch the surface in such a small way. I mean, or credit to them, but they're not getting a support that they're need or being able to roll it out further. So you know, I'm really disappointed because I think this we've missed a trick. We're mister trick.
Yet, Yeah, totally, Like I talked to the likes of Data Common that and to their credit, you know, they are putting money into cadet chips and internships and that sort of thing. You've got the vendors that are going really hard on saying we're going to train one hundred thousand people. This is Microsoft, but on their technology stack. You know, that's understandable. A WS will do the same, salesforce will do the same. We can't just rely on these sorts of initiatives. We need to have a strategic approach to how we build this digital workforce, and.
They need a lot of other skills other than just knowing how to use you know, the copilot stack or the aw stack. They need to have critical thinking because you know, as we talked about earlier, digital technology changes so quickly that what they're learning today it's maybe on genai, will not be what they need to work on in ten years time. You know, quantum computing will be here, so we'll be doing other things, and we'll be doing so many other different things. They might be working in the medical industry rather than in the in the straight technology industry. They could be winging an amazing range of areas. It could be in the agricultural sector. But they need that capability to think in and know how these things work rather than just knowing how to do a prompt and copile it. Well, that's pretty unfair, but you know, you get in the drift of what I'm talking about.
Yeah, and I think some submissions close on that proposal for these new industry standards boards on May the twentieth, So really encourage people to have their say about that and see if we can make some progress you and put that in front of officials that basically making the case for a dedicated digital technology and creative board that gives a focus and hopefully some targets as well. How many AI engineers are we going to need in the next decade. If we don't know that, we've got nothing to aim for, we're not going to make it.
Yeah, and I said, disconnect. Have you read the government's growth agenda? Technology is in there, and we heard the Prime Minister over the weekend talk about technology is one of those And yet here where we've got you know, where we invest in our people that will make this happen, We've got no investment and no framework to make it happen. So I feel like there's you know, they're talking across each other or not not lining things up. So that's that's disappointing.
Okay, another one that is unfortunately disappointing is our progress on digital is our progress on digital inclusion, you know, paint the picture for us. At the moment. We've seen a lot of initiatives that do great work at the front lines sort of defunded, have lost their funding, some government funding and the charitable funding is there at a lower level, so some great initiatives unfortunately have gone. There's less funding for those that remain. We did have, you know a lot of work which you alluded to in the broadband space, you know UFB, and the government's committed to push that out even further. There's the Rural Connectivity Group, the mobile operators are collaborating, so there's some good infrastructure stuff going on. Where are the remaining gaps that we really need to address when it comes to digital inclusion.
Let's start of the infrastructure space. I mean obviously remote rural, and there are things you know, with copper turn off, three G mobile going and networks being turned off. Those can be dealt with and fixed. There are solutions, not as many as I'd hoped and not as competitive as hope, but you know, those are things and I don't think the answer is which I've heard in some places, which is Starlink's the answer or two reasons for that. One is it's quite expensive and secondly, do you really want to pull on your eggs in that basket? And you know, we haven't talked about geopolitical scenarios, but that is one of them. I think what we need to move on from is is this build, build something big, because it will fix most of the problem. And now we're at the stage where we need to be thinking outwards in which is who's not connected, Why aren't they connected? What's leaving them behind? And if you as a government want to digitize and you want to, you know, have people interacting with you through digital technology, you're going to have to look after people as well. You can't leave them behind. And so there is the question around affordability for a small but significant group. You know, it is something that's that's important to look at. And we've certainly you shared with the government over the years on some of the solutions and they could they could look at and we've tried to be very practical, so we haven't gone in and go and spend X billion dollars and connect to everybody we've gone look at those that are missing out because they're missing out on other things. So you know, why don't you roll this in And we've been talking about connectivity being the fourth utility. So you need electricity, you need water, you need roads, and you need to be connected because you can't live and work in this current, this day and age if you don't have those services. So if you could get that built into that way of thinking, I think, you know, that would be a great start. But then you start to think about you know, inclusion isn't just about being connected so you can text your or message or do something like them. It is around how you interact with others, how you and that's certainly across the board. You know, keeping you connected with people is really important. But then also it gives you opportunities to think about, well, I can create a business out of this. I can be connected, I can build something. And also you know, as a young person, if you're if you've got the tools and you learn those tools and use them, it also opens you up to a whole new world that you can live and working as well. Other than just those and went back to those talking about those traditional industries. You know, if you don't know. If you don't connect it and don't have it, then yeah, you can't see it. So where it's hard. Look, I'm not going to say it's easy. It is difficult. It is costly in some ways, but we have to start somewhere.
Yeah, and there was an initiative under labor I think it also came out of COVID really to subsidize broadband for families that really needed it through the education lend. So your kids are all in lockdown at home, here's a subsidy on your broadband subscription to enable them to learn from home. What's the status of that? Now? There was talk about that being wound down, then it was thrown a lifeline. Is it still going, No, it's gone gone. It finished up last year. Yeah, So I mean disappointing in one regard, but on the other side of it, you know, it's like, well, what can we use what do we learn from that we can take forward? And again you know, we came back to doing some work around the numbers and then looking at it and going why don't you simply use the mechanisms you have in place with education and aministry of social development to help people without trying to do something different because I mean, we're not in the place of creating bureaucracy or regulations for the sake of it. We really just want to see outcomes to help people. Yeah, there's an infrastructure divide. It goes to devices as well, the literacy being able to use all of that. And now we've got artificial intelligence, which risks sort of another divide. You know, I can afford to have a Perplexity account and get great use out of it and do all this great stuff with it. But if you're using some of these free tools, you're not going to get as quick results or as high quality results. So I guess that's another layer on top of it. When it digital equity. You've got this powerful new tool, but who's actually going to have access to it?
Yeah, and every new tool is the same, isn't it, Peter. So every new tool, you know, it can be used for good or for bad, or you know, could broaden the inequity. I'm with you too on the you know, if these free tools don't give you as much. The other danger is, of course with the free tools, is everything you load into it goes into the tool, doesn't it. Sorry, you know, you have to be careful around that, and if you don't understand that, you may be giving up stuff that you really don't want to.
Look, we've really not seen much from the government on the AI front. There's guidance for the public sector, there's a strategy in the works, and there will be some guidance for business. But I think this really goes to one of the key points you also make in there is our risk aversion when it comes to technology adoption. I think the CIOs and CTO said, you know, they sort of rate us a six out of ten also on our new tech adoption, which is not that flash. You know, we're behind the ball on AI, so we have an issue where some people won't necessarily be able to access it because it's too expensive. But overall we drag the chain and this has been a common theme in New Zealand. Even though we've had all this great infrastructure, we were slow to the cloud. We're slow to adopt these advanced technologies, which is having implications for our productivity. You know, after ten years of talking to members and consumers and businesses, what do you see has been key to this?
If I knew the answer to that, Peter I'll be out there selling it. But yeah, there is, and I think it's just become exacerbated in the last couple of years. Actually that this over cautiousness and perhaps lack of ambition at a national level, which then flows down to decision makers, is a concern. And all we can do is continue to talk to them and say, well, how can we help you understand what's coming down the track. I mean, sorry to talk about turns for a minute, but we always see what we do to two pillars. One is our advocacy work, so that's the external stuff where we're talking to decision makers, doing media work, all that sort of stuff. You know, these sorts of reports. But these reports do two things. They are for decision makers, but we're also trying to help our members understand what's coming down the track and how they can make use of it. And maybe, look, maybe we haven't been as good as we should have been in helping our members understand that stuff. You know, sometimes I get the message from some people that oh, I just ask my vendor what's coming. Well, that's great because that your vendor continue, but actually you don't get the breadth of the interest and knowledge of what's coming. So maybe we haven't done as good a job as we could, and maybe that's a good learning for us. But yeah, we're trying to help our members understand you know, these things as well, and so that's it's tricky for us as well to keep on top of everything. But I mean I have I do have a small sense of optimism that there are that you know, if you get this sense from these people that is an issue and it makes them think about it, and the report is a discussion starter as well, so you know, hopefully these sorts of conversations will help.
I'm optimistic as well. We've got some great people doing great things with AI for instance, and U seeing some of the startups that are not really on the radar yet that I'm talking to are just doing incredible work. So I am optimistic about that. I think literacy and education is key things that we need to crack and that goes back to the workforce development and that as well. But if we can maybe finish on a positive note, if we can craig one major shift, you know that we might be able to see in twenty twenty five that could have a positive impact on the digital landscape. Is the one thing that if we got Shane Retti and Judith Colins and that together and industry supported, we might be able to get over the line. That would make a difference.
I think the one thing I'd really like to see is around the tech talent side, and it is about developing a plan that enables multiple tracks into a career in digital technology. And we have to think about things like what makes it easier for underrepresented groups, because underrepresented groups provide you know, there is a good reason for doing you know, talking to them one is just the right thing to do. But the other thing is that's a whole pool of talent that we're missing out on that could help us with our issue of not enough talent. So you know, getting more women back into the work you know, in the workforce, into digital terianformation, making it easier for them to move in and out things like fractional employment. But then there's also you know, I think the vocational tracks will assist with people who are in underrepresented groups. I mean, we're doing some little bits and pieces around helping MALDI in PACIFICA. You know understand, you know, what sort of career they can have, But we're only a small organization. So I think if we could get people talking about that and getting some of those pathways stood up, I think they would make a huge difference.
So a pretty clear call to action from Craig Young. We need to get serious about tech skills. Not just importing talent, yes, we'll continue to need to do that, but getting industry and the education sector on the same page to partner for better access to vocational training for tech related skills. So, if you're in the tech sector, get in a submission on the government's consolation about these new industry skills boards. Tell them what you think. Let them know that tech, digital skills, and the creative economy, which includes things like video games, visual effects and the film industry might need a specific focus and some funding support to seed something decent with industry. I'll put a link in the submissions page in the show notes. Just go to the podcast section at Businessdesk dot co dot nz to find it. Submissions are closing pretty soon May twenty, so get one in quickly. Thanks to Craig for coming on the podcast. The Business of Tech is streaming on iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app. Get in touch with your feedback and guest suggestions email me on Peter at Peter Griffin dot co dot nz or via LinkedIn. I'm there most days. Next week, a Wellington based startup that's just raised one million dollars, bought a competitor and is using AI to change how scientific research is undertaken. To next Tuesday for that, and I'll catch you then