Is it time for NZ to be bolder with regulating big tech?

Peter talks to the European Union's envoy to Silicon Valley about how the EU's efforts to regulate big tech have been received and what NZ could learn from the massive government's imminent law changes.

We also ask if Microsoft's co-pilot can really be worth the pricetag.

Subscribe oniHeart Radio or wherever you get podcasts.

Reading list

Is it time for NZ to be bolder with regulating big tech?
Peter talks to the European Union's envoy to Silicon Valley about how the EU's efforts to regulate big tech have been received and what NZ could learn from the massive government's imminent law changes.
We also ask if Microsoft's co-pilot can really be worth the pricetag.
Subscribe on <a href="https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1049-the-business-of-tech-114330718/">iHeart Radio</a> or <a href="https://pod.link/1686022906">wherever you get podcasts.</a>
<a href="https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/technology/business-of-tech-podcast-putting-big-tech-on-notice-with-the-eus-silicon-valley-envoy">Reading list</a>

The Business of Tech, hosted by leading tech journalist Peter Griffin. Every week they take a deep dive into emerging technology and news from the sector to help guide the important decisions all Business leaders make.

Issues such as cybersecurity, retaining trust after a cyberattack, business IT needs, purchasing SaaS tools and more.

New Episodes out every Thursday. Follow or subscribe to get it delivered straight to your favourite podcatcher.

@petergnz

@businessdesk_nz

Proudly sponsored by 2degrees Business!

 

The Business of Tech, hosted by leading tech journalist Peter Griffin. Every week they take a deep dive into emerging technology and news from the sector to help guide the important decisions all Business leaders make.
Issues such as cybersecurity, retaining trust after a cyberattack, business IT needs, purchasing SaaS tools and more.
New Episodes out every Thursday. Follow or subscribe to get it delivered straight to your favourite podcatcher.
@petergnz
@businessdesk_nz
Proudly sponsored by 2degrees Business!
&nbsp;

The Business of Tech

Putting big tech on notice, with EU's envoy to Silicon Valley Gerard de Graaf

Drones have gone from hobbyist toys to decisive tools of war and essential infrastructure for industry. Few people have had a better vantage point on that shift than FenixUAS founder Dr Andrew Shelley. 

In the latest episode of The Business of Tech podcast, the economist and aviation specialist explains how a decade of incremental innovation has transformed uncrewed aircraft into platforms that can reshape modern warfare, agritech and even search and rescue.​

From DIY quadcopters to smart weapons

New Zealand’s first drone rules arrived ten years ago, when the technology was still rudimentary and often home‑built. 

“Pretty much every part of drone technology has improved,” Shelley said. 

Better batteries and lighter and stronger materials have almost doubled flight time, while mass‑manufactured airframes have brought the price of drones down. and far more capable sensors and onboard software. Other advances, such as sensor technology and onboard software, have flowed into features many consumers now take for granted, such as obstacle avoidance, rock‑solid position hold and follow‑me modes, as well as increasingly autonomous flight profiles.​

The Ukraine war, now approaching four years in duration, has been characterised by the use of drones by both Ukrainian and Russian forces. 

The changing face of warfare

Shelley recalled watching footage of a small first‑person‑view drone in Ukraine flying straight past a Russian electronic warfare vehicle “festooned with antennas” and striking the armoured vehicle ahead of it. The drone was trailing a hair-thin fibre-optic cable, allowing it to avoid radio jamming systems.

“To a certain extent, what we’re seeing in Ukraine is that the old is new again,” said Shelley, pointing out that the current generation of drones echo some of the cruise‑missile tactics from the early 1990s.​

Shelley traces a clear line from ISIS workshops that assembled drones from AliExpress parts, through Turkey’s TB2 Bayraktar successes and Russia’s use of DJI’s Aeroscope detection tools, to today’s battlefields where consumer‑grade quadcopters handle intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and precision strikes. 

The West, he argues, has been complacent: “Turkey was leading the way with its Bayraktar TB2, Iran is clearly leading the way with its Shahed series drones and we are playing catch-up,” he said, pointing out that the US is now reverse‑engineering an Iranian drone rather than setting the pace.​

Artificial intelligence is only beginning to make its mark in commercial uses in New Zealand, but Shelley says the leading edge is already visible in applications like Christchurch‑based SPS Automation’s large agricultural drones. These systems can autonomously identify wilding pines and apply “a small amount of chemical herbicide” to individual plants, an approach he argues could transform conservation economics by reaching areas that are “almost impossible on foot” or too expensive to service with crewed aircraft.​

Agritech, data and the search and rescue gap

If the military implications dominate headlines, Shelley sees at least as much untapped potential in agritech and emergency response. He cites spray drones that can drop slug bait on vulnerable crops in muddy conditions where tractors would churn up soil and helicopters are cost‑prohibitive, turning marginal blocks into productive land. 

Pasture management is another frontier. Instead of consultants walking paddocks with pasture meters or towing instruments behind quad bikes, he expects drones to fly automated grids soon to map grass cover and optimise feed wedges across entire farms, backed by “clever software” to interpret the imagery.​

Search and rescue, he argues, is “one of the things we haven’t done well with”, despite New Zealand’s vast coastline, mountains and national parks. Shelley believes agencies need to change their mindset and accept that in bad weather or hazardous terrain, “we have to move into a mindset where we’re happy to lose the technology,” risking a $100,000 drone instead of a multi‑million‑dollar helicopter and its crew to find people in distress.​

Building a drone industry – and workforce

FenixUAS sits at the centre of the fledgling drone ecosystem, training over a thousand civilian and government operators a year, including the New Zealand Defence Force, and certifying many of the country’s advanced drone operators. That gives Shelley what he calls a broader overview of what everyone’s doing with drones than perhaps anyone else in the country, from agritech to infrastructure inspection. 

While firms like Tauranga-based Syos, and SPS Automation point to a growing UAV scene, he says the real bottleneck is software talent, with drone companies crying out for mechatronics and software engineers who can turn raw imagery into usable insights.​

Listen to Episode 130 of The Business of Tech podcast featuring Dr Andrew Shelley, streaming on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

Your weekly tech reading list

The year the tech billionaires won (again) - BusinessDesk

Canaries in the code mine: what AI is doing to first jobs for Generation Z - BusinessDesk

ChatGPT’s New Internet Browser Can Run 80% of a One-Person Business - Entrepreneur

The Data on Self-Driving Cars Is Clear. We Have to Change Course - New York Times

AI-Powered Browsers Are Failing Badly - Futurism

China set to limit access to Nvidia’s H200 chips despite Trump export approval - FT

Australia's ban on social media for users aged under 16 comes into effect; platforms that do not comply risk fines of up to AU$49.5M - The Guardian

OpenAI Staffer Quits, Alleging Company’s Economic Research Is Drifting Into AI Advocacy - Wired

SpaceX to Pursue 2026 IPO Raising Far Above $30 Billion - Bloomberg

From Llamas to Avocados: Meta’s shifting AI strategy is causing internal confusion - CNBC

 

Drones have gone from hobbyist toys to decisive tools of war and essential infrastructure for industry. Few people have had a better vantage point on that shift than&nbsp;<a href="https://fenixuas.nz/?gad_source=1&amp;gad_campaignid=1732360732&amp;gbraid=0AAAAAC-8xKmr8JDk2OBUdJ22TOhJkids2&amp;gclid=Cj0KCQiArt_JBhCTARIsADQZayk9igemgEzMcLIJqf8MOTn41Wtizv76MZ9lRv3VNQvX4TTrpc4Xd8kaApIUEALw_wcB">FenixUAS</a> founder Dr Andrew Shelley.&nbsp;
In the latest episode of The Business of Tech podcast, the economist and aviation specialist explains how a decade of incremental innovation has transformed uncrewed aircraft into platforms that can reshape modern warfare, agritech and even search and rescue.​
From DIY quadcopters to smart weapons
New Zealand&rsquo;s first drone rules arrived ten years ago, when the technology was still rudimentary and often home‑built.&nbsp;
&ldquo;Pretty much every part of drone technology has improved,&rdquo; Shelley said.&nbsp;
Better batteries and lighter and stronger materials have almost doubled flight time, while mass‑manufactured airframes have brought the price of drones down. and far more capable sensors and onboard software. Other advances, such as sensor technology and onboard software, have flowed into features many consumers now take for granted, such as obstacle avoidance, rock‑solid position hold and follow‑me modes, as well as increasingly autonomous flight profiles.​
The Ukraine war, now approaching four years in duration, has been characterised by the use of drones by both Ukrainian and Russian forces.&nbsp;
The changing face of warfare
Shelley recalled watching footage of a small first‑person‑view drone in Ukraine flying straight past a Russian electronic warfare vehicle &ldquo;festooned with antennas&rdquo; and striking the armoured vehicle ahead of it. The drone was trailing a hair-thin fibre-optic cable, allowing it to avoid radio jamming systems.
&ldquo;To a certain extent, what we&rsquo;re seeing in Ukraine is that the old is new again,&rdquo; said Shelley, pointing out that the current generation of drones echo some of the cruise‑missile tactics from the early 1990s.​
Shelley traces a clear line from ISIS workshops that assembled drones from AliExpress parts, through Turkey&rsquo;s TB2 Bayraktar successes and Russia&rsquo;s use of DJI&rsquo;s Aeroscope detection tools, to today&rsquo;s battlefields where consumer‑grade quadcopters handle intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and precision strikes.&nbsp;
The West, he argues, has been complacent: &ldquo;Turkey was leading the way with its Bayraktar TB2, Iran is clearly leading the way with its Shahed series drones and we are playing catch-up,&rdquo; he said, pointing out that the US is now reverse‑engineering an Iranian drone rather than setting the pace.​
Artificial intelligence is only beginning to make its mark in commercial uses in New Zealand, but Shelley says the leading edge is already visible in applications like Christchurch‑based <a href="https://spsautomation.com/">SPS Automation</a>&rsquo;s large agricultural drones. These systems can autonomously identify wilding pines and apply &ldquo;a small amount of chemical herbicide&rdquo; to individual plants, an approach he argues could transform conservation economics by reaching areas that are &ldquo;almost impossible on foot&rdquo; or too expensive to service with crewed aircraft.​
Agritech, data and the search and rescue gap
If the military implications dominate headlines, Shelley sees at least as much untapped potential in agritech and emergency response. He cites spray drones that can drop slug bait on vulnerable crops in muddy conditions where tractors would churn up soil and helicopters are cost‑prohibitive, turning marginal blocks into productive land.&nbsp;
Pasture management is another frontier. Instead of consultants walking paddocks with pasture meters or towing instruments behind quad bikes, he expects drones to fly automated grids soon to map grass cover and optimise feed wedges across entire farms, backed by &ldquo;clever software&rdquo; to interpret the imagery.​
Search and rescue, he argues, is &ldquo;one of the things we haven&rsquo;t done well with&rdquo;, despite New Zealand&rsquo;s vast coastline, mountains and national parks. Shelley believes agencies need to change their mindset and accept that in bad weather or hazardous terrain, &ldquo;we have to move into a mindset where we&rsquo;re happy to lose the technology,&rdquo; risking a $100,000 drone instead of a multi‑million‑dollar helicopter and its crew to find people in distress.​
Building a drone industry &ndash; and workforce
FenixUAS sits at the centre of the fledgling drone ecosystem, training over a thousand civilian and government operators a year, including the New Zealand Defence Force, and certifying many of the country&rsquo;s advanced drone operators. That gives Shelley what he calls a broader overview of what everyone&rsquo;s doing with drones than perhaps anyone else in the country, from agritech to infrastructure inspection.&nbsp;
While firms like Tauranga-based <a href="https://syos-aerospace.com/">Syos</a>, and SPS Automation point to a growing UAV scene, he says the real bottleneck is software talent, with drone companies crying out for mechatronics and software engineers who can turn raw imagery into usable insights.​
Listen to Episode 130 of The Business of Tech podcast featuring Dr Andrew Shelley, streaming on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
Your weekly tech reading list
<a href="https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/opinion/the-year-the-tech-billionaires-won-again">The year the tech billionaires won (again)</a> - BusinessDesk
<a href="https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/work/canaries-in-the-code-mine-what-ai-is-doing-to-first-jobs-for-generation-z">Canaries in the code mine: what AI is doing to first jobs for Generation Z</a> - BusinessDesk
<a href="https://www.entrepreneur.com/growing-a-business/chatgpts-new-internet-browser-can-run-80-of-a-one-person/500343">ChatGPT&rsquo;s New Internet Browser Can Run 80% of a One-Person Business</a> - Entrepreneur
<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/02/opinion/self-driving-cars.html">The Data on Self-Driving Cars Is Clear. We Have to Change Course</a> - New York Times
<a href="https://futurism.com/future-society/ai-powered-browsers-failing">AI-Powered Browsers Are Failing Badly</a> - Futurism
<a href="https://www.ft.com/content/c4e81a67-cd5b-48b4-9749-92ecf116313d">China set to limit access to Nvidia&rsquo;s H200 chips despite Trump export approval</a> - FT
<a href="https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/dec/09/australia-under-16-social-media-ban-begins-apps-listed">Australia's ban on social media for users aged under 16 comes into effect; platforms that do not comply risk fines of up to AU$49.5M</a> - The Guardian
<a href="https://www.wired.com/story/openai-economic-research-team-ai-jobs/">OpenAI Staffer Quits, Alleging Company&rsquo;s Economic Research Is Drifting Into AI Advocacy</a> - Wired
<a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-12-09/spacex-said-to-pursue-2026-ipo-raising-far-above-30-billion?embedded-checkout=true">SpaceX to Pursue 2026 IPO Raising Far Above $30 Billion</a> - Bloomberg
<a href="https://www.cnbc.com/2025/12/09/meta-avocado-ai-strategy-issues.html">From Llamas to Avocados: Meta&rsquo;s shifting AI strategy is causing internal confusion</a> - CNBC
&nbsp;

How cheap drones became the defining weapon of modern conflict

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/7784f840-c291-422a-924b-ad9000bbad71/clips/76eb9da4-6dff-45fb-8c0f-b3ae0156ad67/transcript

In the creaky world of financial advising, where compliance paperwork devours hours and clunky software feels like a relic from the dial-up era, a New Zealand startup is deploying AI to free advisers from the drudgery. 

Marloo, co-founded by Hardy Michel, who cut his teeth as head of operations at Wellington-based share trading platform Sharesies, isn't building robo-advisers to supplant humans.

Instead, he is using artificial intelligence to free up advisors so they can focus on the trust-building conversations that truly matter to their clients. In the latest episode of The Business of Tech podcast, Michel shares how his London-based venture is already winning paying customers across four countries, proving New Zealand fintech can scale globally from day one.

Relocating to London in 2022, Michel joined Estonian-founded investing platform Lightyear, helping it launch across 22 European countries amid regulatory mazes far more complex than New Zealand's. 

"I felt like I'd really rounded out probably the missing piece of my knowledge and learning, which was kind of how do you build the machine at scale?" Michel told me.

Freeing advisors from low-value admin

That experience, combined with angel investing via Blackbird Ventures, convinced him to co-found Marloo with fellow Sharesies alum Shakeel Lala.

Marloo’s mission? Financial advice is potentially transformational but inaccessible, the founders realised. Advisers spend 70% of their time on low-value admin, from anti-money laundering checks to 50-page suitability reports that gather dust. 

Existing tools are clunky, with Michel describing the "Windows 95-esque" systems financial advisors had to choose from before Marloo arrived on the scene. Marloo offers a hyper-specialised AI note-taker for client meetings. Unlike transcription tools, it sifts through hours of chit-chat to extract the 5% that counts – goals, risk tolerance, fees – and structures it for compliance or client follow-ups.

From there, the AI evolves into a full operating system, turning advisors into "reviewers, not doers", Michel said.

Finish a meeting, and Marloo drafts an annual review letter in two minutes, 95% ready for a quick edit. 

"You no longer have to take notes after the meeting, have a second person in the meeting taking notes for them, or rely on anything else other than our product," Michel explained. 

The result? Advisors onboard more clients without burnout, firms cut outsourcing costs, and the human element, crucial for navigating life's emotional money milestones like retirement or inheritance, stays front and centre.

Giving robo-advice a wide berth

This augmentation ethos sets Marloo apart from robo-advice hype. "If robo-advice was kind of as good as it was cracked up to be, we'd all be using it right now. And the reality is we're not," Michel told me. 

He predicts regulators will be reluctant to green-light fully AI-driven advice, given the trust factor. Instead, Marloo aims to overhaul unit economics: lower fees, drop minimum balances (now often $500,000+), and make quality guidance available to more than just the wealthy. 

"The mission is [to] transform the underlying [profit and loss]  in the unit economics of what it means to deliver advice to a customer so that we can actually reverse that," he said

Marloo recently raised NZ$4.6 million in pre-seed funding to accelerate development. 

"We're going to raise a little bit of money to answer a true false question in 12 months... that we are confident we can spend the next 10 years working on this and it's going to be a massive business," he recounts of the Blackbird pitch.

As AI bubbles inflate, Michel warns against shiny tech without substance. 

"It's never been easier to build... [but] also... to deliver a really shitty product experience," he said. 

Marloo, he added, prioritises delight – a consumer-grade user experience in a B2B world. For an industry pricing out everyday clients amid rising fees (up 6% in the UK last year), this could be the reset financial advice needs.

Tune into episode 129 of The Business of Tech, powered by 2degrees, for the full conversation, where Michel dives deeper into Estonia's entrepreneurial edge, Sharesies' early battles, and why financial advice must stay human-powered. Available now on all major podcast platforms. 

In the creaky world of financial advising, where compliance paperwork devours hours and clunky software feels like a relic from the dial-up era, a New Zealand startup is deploying AI to free advisers from the drudgery.&nbsp;
Marloo, co-founded by Hardy Michel, who cut his teeth as head of operations at Wellington-based share trading platform Sharesies, isn't building robo-advisers to supplant humans.
Instead, he is using artificial intelligence to free up advisors so they can focus on the trust-building conversations that truly matter to their clients. In the latest episode of The Business of Tech podcast, Michel shares how his London-based venture is already winning paying customers across four countries, proving New Zealand fintech can scale globally from day one.
Relocating to London in 2022, Michel joined Estonian-founded investing platform Lightyear, helping it launch across 22 European countries amid regulatory mazes far more complex than New Zealand's.&nbsp;
"I felt like I'd really rounded out probably the missing piece of my knowledge and learning, which was kind of how do you build the machine at scale?" Michel told me.
Freeing advisors from low-value admin
That experience, combined with angel investing via Blackbird Ventures, convinced him to co-found Marloo with fellow Sharesies alum Shakeel Lala.
Marloo&rsquo;s mission? Financial advice is potentially transformational but inaccessible, the founders realised. Advisers spend 70% of their time on low-value admin, from anti-money laundering checks to 50-page suitability reports that gather dust.&nbsp;
Existing tools are clunky, with Michel describing the "Windows 95-esque" systems financial advisors had to choose from before Marloo arrived on the scene. Marloo offers a hyper-specialised AI note-taker for client meetings. Unlike transcription tools, it sifts through hours of chit-chat to extract the 5% that counts &ndash; goals, risk tolerance, fees &ndash; and structures it for compliance or client follow-ups.
From there, the AI evolves into a full operating system, turning advisors into "reviewers, not doers", Michel said.
Finish a meeting, and Marloo drafts an annual review letter in two minutes, 95% ready for a quick edit.&nbsp;
"You no longer have to take notes after the meeting, have a second person in the meeting taking notes for them, or rely on anything else other than our product," Michel explained.&nbsp;
The result? Advisors onboard more clients without burnout, firms cut outsourcing costs, and the human element, crucial for navigating life's emotional money milestones like retirement or inheritance, stays front and centre.
Giving robo-advice a wide berth
This augmentation ethos sets Marloo apart from robo-advice hype. "If robo-advice was kind of as good as it was cracked up to be, we'd all be using it right now. And the reality is we're not," Michel told me.&nbsp;
He predicts regulators will be reluctant to green-light fully AI-driven advice, given the trust factor. Instead, Marloo aims to overhaul unit economics: lower fees, drop minimum balances (now often $500,000+), and make quality guidance available to more than just the wealthy.&nbsp;
"The mission is [to] transform the underlying [profit and loss]&nbsp; in the unit economics of what it means to deliver advice to a customer so that we can actually reverse that," he said
Marloo recently raised NZ$4.6 million in pre-seed funding to accelerate development.&nbsp;
"We're going to raise a little bit of money to answer a true false question in 12 months... that we are confident we can spend the next 10 years working on this and it's going to be a massive business," he recounts of the Blackbird pitch.
As AI bubbles inflate, Michel warns against shiny tech without substance.&nbsp;
"It's never been easier to build... [but] also... to deliver a really shitty product experience," he said.&nbsp;
Marloo, he added, prioritises delight &ndash; a consumer-grade user experience in a B2B world. For an industry pricing out everyday clients amid rising fees (up 6% in the UK last year), this could be the reset financial advice needs.
Tune into episode 129 of The Business of Tech, powered by 2degrees, for the full conversation, where Michel dives deeper into Estonia's entrepreneurial edge, Sharesies' early battles, and why financial advice must stay human-powered. Available now on all major podcast platforms.&nbsp;

The Kiwi fintech startup hacking the admin hell out of financial advice

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/7784f840-c291-422a-924b-ad9000bbad71/clips/41ddd68b-8a86-45c2-8869-b3a70091f23a/transcript

In the latest episode of The Business of Tech, Tracksuit co-founder and chief commercial officer Matt Herbert explains how the startup is using brand data to help marketers navigate an era of economic uncertainty, shifting consumer behaviour and AI-driven search. 

“The edge that we brought to it was simplifying the fundamentals and making it incredibly accessible,” he says of Tracksuit’s dashboard of brand tracking indicators, which is now used by over 1,000 customers globally to track around 10,000 brands.​

Herbert traces his obsession with brands back to childhood, recalling growing up playing football for Eastern Suburbs in Auckland, where McDonald’s Player of the Day branding made an impression on him. That early fascination with how brands connect with people ultimately led him through roles at Uber and Snapchat analytics startup Mish Guru, and on to founding Tracksuit.​

From those formative experiences, Herbert and friend and co-founder Connor Archbold drew a blueprint for global expansion that they are now applying at Tracksuit. Advertising and branding guru James Hurman came on board as a co-founder to apply his insights to the Tracksuit platform, incubating the company into his Previously Unavailable innovation studio.

The Uber blueprint

“Uber to me still has one of the best blueprints of how to scale globally fast and effectively… starting one market, win the next market, hire great people, empower and scale out and go where the demand is,” Herbert said of the ride-hailing platform.

That thinking now underpins Tracksuit’s carefully sequenced move from New Zealand into Australia, the US and the UK.​​ Herbert’s mission is to shift marketers’ focus from short-term clicks to long-term brand building. 

“Most businesses have been so focused on sales and conversions and performance marketing where you put a dollar into Meta, and you get three dollars back,” he said.

“Then it got to a point where you were putting a dollar in, and you were getting 80 cents back. Everybody had been so focused on converting at the expense of building your business and your brands over the long term.”​

To explain that imbalance, he shares a favourite thought experiment from marketing effectiveness expert and Tracksuit co-founder James Hurman. In a room of people, Herbert asks who is buying a phone in the next three months. Only a few hands go up. Then he asks who will buy a phone in the next two years. 

“Everybody's hand goes up,” he says. “That right there is the concept of what marketing's job [is] to do… you've also got to build awareness and familiarity and connection with those who aren't ready to buy from you right now, but will do down the track.” Tracksuit’s dashboard is designed to make that long-term job visible and measurable.​

Throw out the hundred-page PDF

Tracksuit’s answer was to build a software platform that pulls the essence out of expensive research reports and puts it into a live, always-on view of brand health. 

“We were basically getting told we'd love just to see the exact summary of the big research reports that we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on in a hundred-page PDF,” he recalled of early interviews with chief marketing officers. 

“We actually just want to see the exact summary. How big is our market? How well is our brand known and considered? What do people think and feel about us and how does that compare to the competitors?”​

That customer discovery led directly to Tracksuit’s first product and revenue. 

“After 67 conversations, we had 11 businesses pay us upfront annual licenses,” Herbert said. 

“We took the first $110,000 and built the first prototype of the product. We didn't have a product, but we had the likes of Simplicity and Allpress and Good George Beer and Auckland Council, all of these really early brands that took a punt on us, and we built the first version and from there we continue to scale out.”​

Fast-forward four and a half years and Herbert says Tracksuit has assembled “one of the largest data sets on brand health on consumer brands in the world.” 

The company raised $42 million in June in a series B funding round with the proceeds to be used to expand Tracksuit’s US presence and drive growth in Europe and Asia.

The rise of agentic engine optimisation

Herbert said Tracksuit had embraced artificial intelligence, which was helping reshape the brand landscape as internet search and digital marketing were transformed by it. Tracksuit is using AI to accelerate insight delivery and supercharge internal workflows.

He pointed to a weekend hack by his vice president of strategy and operations: “Our chief of staff, Dan, was using some agentic AI workflows and built an [agentic engine optimisation] product. How well is your brand showing up in the likes of Claude and Perplexity, and ChatGPT? He did that within a weekend, six hours,” Herbert said.​​

Herbert argues brands now need to think about AEO in the same way they once grappled with search engine optimisation. 

Finally, Herbert shared his playbook for building a resilient business in choppy economic waters. 

“We founded Tracksuit at the back end of the pandemic. Since that time in 2021, I think there's probably been three different recessions or hints of recessions globally,” he said.

“There'll always be something. And that's why it's really important for us to be building a sustainable, responsible business that isn't relying on continuing to raise external capital just to keep the lights on.” 

For brand leaders facing budget pressure, his advice is to invest wisely to understand how your brand is performing now, so you can make inroads when buying appetite improves. 

“If you can keep your marketing going through times of recessions, it's proven time and time again that you come out far stronger than when people cut budgets.”​

Listen to the full interview with Tracksuit’s Matt Herbert on The Business of Tech powered by 2degrees Business, streaming on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

Your weekly tech reading list

Home Markets Rebecca Stevenson Fisher & Paykel Healthcare cracks $1b milestone, ups profit guidance - BusinessDesk

Startup Winely goes into liquidation owing $2.2m - BusinessDesk

A year of tech milestones: Exports, AI, and innovation in 2025 - BusinessDesk

Blackpearl Group joins the ASX: Which deep-pocketed Aussie investors are backing the Kiwi tech company - BusinessDesk

Ruminant Biotech raises $17m at $132m valuation for its cow pill that will slash methane emissions - NZ Herald

CrowdStrike catches insider feeding information to hackers - Bleeping Computer

Rocket Lab chief opens up about Neutron delays, New Glenn’s success, and NASA science - ArsTechnica

Warner Music drops lawsuit against AI music platform Suno in exchange for licensing agreement - Engadget

Roblox is a problem — but it’s a symptom of something worse - Platformer

Robots and AI Are Already Remaking the Chinese Economy - Wall Street Journal

In the latest episode of The Business of Tech, Tracksuit co-founder and chief commercial officer Matt Herbert explains how the startup is using brand data to help marketers navigate an era of economic uncertainty, shifting consumer behaviour and AI-driven search.&nbsp;
&ldquo;The edge that we brought to it was simplifying the fundamentals and making it incredibly accessible,&rdquo; he says of Tracksuit&rsquo;s dashboard of brand tracking indicators, which is now used by over 1,000 customers globally to track around 10,000 brands.​
Herbert traces his obsession with brands back to childhood, recalling growing up playing football for Eastern Suburbs in Auckland, where McDonald&rsquo;s Player of the Day branding made an impression on him. That early fascination with how brands connect with people ultimately led him through roles at Uber and Snapchat analytics startup Mish Guru, and on to founding Tracksuit.​
From those formative experiences, Herbert and friend and co-founder Connor Archbold drew a blueprint for global expansion that they are now applying at Tracksuit. Advertising and branding guru James Hurman came on board as a co-founder to apply his insights to the Tracksuit platform, incubating the company into his Previously Unavailable innovation studio.
The Uber blueprint
&ldquo;Uber to me still has one of the best blueprints of how to scale globally fast and effectively&hellip; starting one market, win the next market, hire great people, empower and scale out and go where the demand is,&rdquo; Herbert said of the ride-hailing platform.
That thinking now underpins Tracksuit&rsquo;s carefully sequenced move from New Zealand into Australia, the US and the UK.​​ Herbert&rsquo;s mission is to shift marketers&rsquo; focus from short-term clicks to long-term brand building.&nbsp;
&ldquo;Most businesses have been so focused on sales and conversions and performance marketing where you put a dollar into Meta, and you get three dollars back,&rdquo; he said.
&ldquo;Then it got to a point where you were putting a dollar in, and you were getting 80 cents back. Everybody had been so focused on converting at the expense of building your business and your brands over the long term.&rdquo;​
To explain that imbalance, he shares a favourite thought experiment from marketing effectiveness expert and Tracksuit co-founder James Hurman. In a room of people, Herbert asks who is buying a phone in the next three months. Only a few hands go up. Then he asks who will buy a phone in the next two years.&nbsp;
&ldquo;Everybody's hand goes up,&rdquo; he says. &ldquo;That right there is the concept of what marketing's job [is] to do&hellip; you've also got to build awareness and familiarity and connection with those who aren't ready to buy from you right now, but will do down the track.&rdquo; Tracksuit&rsquo;s dashboard is designed to make that long-term job visible and measurable.​
Throw out the hundred-page PDF
Tracksuit&rsquo;s answer was to build a software platform that pulls the essence out of expensive research reports and puts it into a live, always-on view of brand health.&nbsp;
&ldquo;We were basically getting told we'd love just to see the exact summary of the big research reports that we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on in a hundred-page PDF,&rdquo; he recalled of early interviews with chief marketing officers.&nbsp;
&ldquo;We actually just want to see the exact summary. How big is our market? How well is our brand known and considered? What do people think and feel about us and how does that compare to the competitors?&rdquo;​
That customer discovery led directly to Tracksuit&rsquo;s first product and revenue.&nbsp;
&ldquo;After 67 conversations, we had 11 businesses pay us upfront annual licenses,&rdquo; Herbert said.&nbsp;
&ldquo;We took the first $110,000 and built the first prototype of the product. We didn't have a product, but we had the likes of Simplicity and Allpress and Good George Beer and Auckland Council, all of these really early brands that took a punt on us, and we built the first version and from there we continue to scale out.&rdquo;​
Fast-forward four and a half years and Herbert says Tracksuit has assembled &ldquo;one of the largest data sets on brand health on consumer brands in the world.&rdquo;&nbsp;
The company raised $42 million in June in a series B funding round with the proceeds to be used to expand Tracksuit&rsquo;s US presence and drive growth in Europe and Asia.
The rise of agentic engine optimisation
Herbert said Tracksuit had embraced artificial intelligence, which was helping reshape the brand landscape as internet search and digital marketing were transformed by it. Tracksuit is using AI to accelerate insight delivery and supercharge internal workflows.
He pointed to a weekend hack by his vice president of strategy and operations: &ldquo;Our chief of staff, Dan, was using some agentic AI workflows and built an [agentic engine optimisation] product. How well is your brand showing up in the likes of Claude and Perplexity, and ChatGPT? He did that within a weekend, six hours,&rdquo; Herbert said.​​
Herbert argues brands now need to think about AEO in the same way they once grappled with search engine optimisation.&nbsp;
Finally, Herbert shared his playbook for building a resilient business in choppy economic waters.&nbsp;
&ldquo;We founded Tracksuit at the back end of the pandemic. Since that time in 2021, I think there's probably been three different recessions or hints of recessions globally,&rdquo; he said.
&ldquo;There'll always be something. And that's why it's really important for us to be building a sustainable, responsible business that isn't relying on continuing to raise external capital just to keep the lights on.&rdquo;&nbsp;
For brand leaders facing budget pressure, his advice is to invest wisely to understand how your brand is performing now, so you can make inroads when buying appetite improves.&nbsp;
&ldquo;If you can keep your marketing going through times of recessions, it's proven time and time again that you come out far stronger than when people cut budgets.&rdquo;​
Listen to the full interview with Tracksuit&rsquo;s Matt Herbert on The Business of Tech powered by 2degrees Business, streaming on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
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How Tracksuit turned brand data into a global growth engine

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