Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business. I'm Peter Griffin from Business Desk and on this week's episode, we're surveying the science and innovation landscape from the other side of the political isle. Labour MP for christ Church East Reuben Davidson has been in Parliament since late in twenty twenty three, and a few months ago was given a rather attractive and important collection of shadow portfolios, including Science, Technology and Innovation and Broadcasting, Media and a Creative Economy. As you'd expect, Davidson isn't very impressed with the Coalition government's approach in these policy areas, particularly in what Labour sees as destructive and indiscriminate cuts in funding for science and innovation. Labour's also starting to formulate some ideas on artificial intelligence policy. It held in AI summit recently in Wellington to gather ideas on how to regulate AI and promote its use among businesses, with the Labor Party leader Chris Hopkins opening that forum. Ruben Davidson also has written a private member's bill, which so far hasn't been selected for introduction into Parliament, but which would impose a small video on demand levy basically a digital tax on the big foreign streaming platforms like Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Disney Plus and Apple TV. The revenue generated from that levy on those platform providers, which Davidson points out pay very little, if any local tax, would go into a local content fund to help the local production industry, which is where Davidson has spent most of his career as a TV producer of shows including What Now. So a lot of groundcovered in this interview with Ruben Davidson, who, let's face it, by the end of next year, could be the man in charge of science, tech and broadcasting policy.

Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business. I'm Peter Griffin from Business Desk and on this week's episode, we're surveying the science and innovation landscape from the other side of the political isle. Labour MP for christ Church East Reuben Davidson has been in Parliament since late in twenty twenty three, and a few months ago was given a rather attractive and important collection of shadow portfolios, including Science, Technology and Innovation and Broadcasting, Media and a Creative Economy. As you'd expect, Davidson isn't very impressed with the Coalition government's approach in these policy areas, particularly in what Labour sees as destructive and indiscriminate cuts in funding for science and innovation. Labour's also starting to formulate some ideas on artificial intelligence policy. It held in AI summit recently in Wellington to gather ideas on how to regulate AI and promote its use among businesses, with the Labor Party leader Chris Hopkins opening that forum. Ruben Davidson also has written a private member's bill, which so far hasn't been selected for introduction into Parliament, but which would impose a small video on demand levy basically a digital tax on the big foreign streaming platforms like Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Disney Plus and Apple TV. The revenue generated from that levy on those platform providers, which Davidson points out pay very little, if any local tax, would go into a local content fund to help the local production industry, which is where Davidson has spent most of his career as a TV producer of shows including What Now. So a lot of groundcovered in this interview with Ruben Davidson, who, let's face it, by the end of next year, could be the man in charge of science, tech and broadcasting policy.

Here's the interview.

Here's the interview.

Rubin Davidson. Welcome to the business of tech. How are you doing.

Rubin Davidson. Welcome to the business of tech. How are you doing.

I'm doing very well. Thank you for having me, Thank you.

I'm doing very well. Thank you for having me, Thank you.

For the invitation, pleasure to have you on and great to connect. You were elected to Parliament in October twenty twenty three, succeeding Poto Williams. Bit of a bittersweet I guess victory for you. That was a pretty bad election for labor. You were one of the only new I think Labor MPs to come in in that cohort.

For the invitation, pleasure to have you on and great to connect. You were elected to Parliament in October twenty twenty three, succeeding Poto Williams. Bit of a bittersweet I guess victory for you. That was a pretty bad election for labor. You were one of the only new I think Labor MPs to come in in that cohort.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

It was not the result that we had hoped for and there were two of us that came in, so myself and christ your cheest and Kushla Tonguaden Manuel in koradafty one of the Maori seats, the only Maori seat that we won in the North Island. So yeah, we've given ourselves the title of head boy and head girl.

It was not the result that we had hoped for and there were two of us that came in, so myself and christ your cheest and Kushla Tonguaden Manuel in koradafty one of the Maori seats, the only Maori seat that we won in the North Island. So yeah, we've given ourselves the title of head boy and head girl.

Good on you. You you were born in christ Church, you live in I think North New Brighton at the moment. Yeah, and so tell us a little bit for listeners who aren't so familiar with your background, your pathway into politics, but also your professional career, what you were doing beforehand.

Good on you. You you were born in christ Church, you live in I think North New Brighton at the moment. Yeah, and so tell us a little bit for listeners who aren't so familiar with your background, your pathway into politics, but also your professional career, what you were doing beforehand.

Yeah sure, so, I mean my background is in broadcasting and media. So when I finished school, did a degree a Bachelor of Broadcasting Communications and men started working for TV inzt Up in Auckland, so initially as an intern, and that was back in the days when there was a lot of internal production within TV inst so a really good opportunity to work across a number of shows, a number of very different shows in fact, anything from Maggie's Garden Show to Big Brother to Music Week to Havoc, so a real mixed bag and at times working on two shows at the same time, two very different shows at the same time, so a great a great time to work in television, a real contrast to the environment that media is operating in now. And then I left TVNZ after about four and a half five years and came back to christ Church, which is my hometown, and took up a job working for White Bait Media as an associate producer on What Now. And that was a great opportunity to really join together. At that point in time, pretty new tech which allowed us to broadcast from just about anywhere with two people and a satellite dish and a crew of three.

Yeah sure, so, I mean my background is in broadcasting and media. So when I finished school, did a degree a Bachelor of Broadcasting Communications and men started working for TV inzt Up in Auckland, so initially as an intern, and that was back in the days when there was a lot of internal production within TV inst so a really good opportunity to work across a number of shows, a number of very different shows in fact, anything from Maggie's Garden Show to Big Brother to Music Week to Havoc, so a real mixed bag and at times working on two shows at the same time, two very different shows at the same time, so a great a great time to work in television, a real contrast to the environment that media is operating in now. And then I left TVNZ after about four and a half five years and came back to christ Church, which is my hometown, and took up a job working for White Bait Media as an associate producer on What Now. And that was a great opportunity to really join together. At that point in time, pretty new tech which allowed us to broadcast from just about anywhere with two people and a satellite dish and a crew of three.

We'd now be able to do better with.

We'd now be able to do better with.

Our phone, but at the time it was really exciting to be able to meet local people, local children, local small towns around New Zealand into mainstream media and onto What Now, and I spent the next eighteen years at White Bait. I went on to produce Now and then I went into content development, so developing ideas, pitching them up to networks, getting them funded and then producing them ultimately, so anything from the Adam and Eve Show through to f Animals, and when I finished up, the last show I worked on was Brainbusters, so essentially the Chase for kids.

Our phone, but at the time it was really exciting to be able to meet local people, local children, local small towns around New Zealand into mainstream media and onto What Now, and I spent the next eighteen years at White Bait. I went on to produce Now and then I went into content development, so developing ideas, pitching them up to networks, getting them funded and then producing them ultimately, so anything from the Adam and Eve Show through to f Animals, and when I finished up, the last show I worked on was Brainbusters, so essentially the Chase for kids.

Yeah, and in about twenty nineteen you served on the community board down there. So what triggered your desire to get into politics.

Yeah, and in about twenty nineteen you served on the community board down there. So what triggered your desire to get into politics.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Look, I mean I've probably always been a relatively politically active person, and I would encourage others to be the same. But I mean at high school, I was on school board of trustees, so I was quite politically active at that point in time. That was motivated by the fact that teachers were allowed to smoke at school, but students weren't. I wasn't a smoker, but I thought that seemed pretty unfair. So eventually no one was allowed to smoke at school, which maybe really popular with the teachers. But I went on to you just volunteer over the years for different campaigns or you know, over different elections, and then I started to get more formally involved and got elected into local bodies. So being on a community board and then becoming the chair of a community board there was a really, really good opportunity to serve a community that I loved being part of, but also to get a really good grounding and understanding of the difference between management, which is what I've done a lot in television and governance.

Look, I mean I've probably always been a relatively politically active person, and I would encourage others to be the same. But I mean at high school, I was on school board of trustees, so I was quite politically active at that point in time. That was motivated by the fact that teachers were allowed to smoke at school, but students weren't. I wasn't a smoker, but I thought that seemed pretty unfair. So eventually no one was allowed to smoke at school, which maybe really popular with the teachers. But I went on to you just volunteer over the years for different campaigns or you know, over different elections, and then I started to get more formally involved and got elected into local bodies. So being on a community board and then becoming the chair of a community board there was a really, really good opportunity to serve a community that I loved being part of, but also to get a really good grounding and understanding of the difference between management, which is what I've done a lot in television and governance.

Which is what the community board role ultimately was.

Which is what the community board role ultimately was.

And I also had had the opportunity from that governance perspective to also sit on the Sparta Board and that was a really, really good chance to engage with fellow practitioners in the industry but also with different levels of government industry around what the needs were at a time when we could see that there was trouble on the horizon and ultimately that's the trouble that's hit us now in the media space.

And I also had had the opportunity from that governance perspective to also sit on the Sparta Board and that was a really, really good chance to engage with fellow practitioners in the industry but also with different levels of government industry around what the needs were at a time when we could see that there was trouble on the horizon and ultimately that's the trouble that's hit us now in the media space.

Yeah, and we will get into that because you do. You sort of have the dream collection of portfolios. From my perspective, You've got science, technology and innovation as well as broadcasting, media and the creative economy. So huge synergies between all of those. Obviously, on the broadcasting media, creative economy stuff, you've got a huge depth of knowledge there. You totally understand the TV production industry, which is a huge flux at the moment. How do you feel about taking on that science innovation We've seen Judith Collins, Shane Retti, David Clark from Labor, Megan Woods was in that role for a while. Some of them have had some science background, some of them haven't. Do you need it for a portfolio like Science and Innovation, you know.

Yeah, and we will get into that because you do. You sort of have the dream collection of portfolios. From my perspective, You've got science, technology and innovation as well as broadcasting, media and the creative economy. So huge synergies between all of those. Obviously, on the broadcasting media, creative economy stuff, you've got a huge depth of knowledge there. You totally understand the TV production industry, which is a huge flux at the moment. How do you feel about taking on that science innovation We've seen Judith Collins, Shane Retti, David Clark from Labor, Megan Woods was in that role for a while. Some of them have had some science background, some of them haven't. Do you need it for a portfolio like Science and Innovation, you know.

It's it's an enormous privilege and I'm hugely, hugely excited by the by the by both portfolios, but by all elements of each of them as well. I'm pleased to say that you don't have to be a scientist to hold the Science portfolio. And I will be the first person to tell you I'm definitely not a scientist, but you do have to understand science and ultimately to have and I do an enormous amount of respect for those people who work in that sector and the importance and the value of the work that they do in the sciences and from the field trips I've had so far, the conversations and engagement that I've had with with our science community so far, I'm absolutely amazed and inspired by the work that they're doing and the is you know.

It's it's an enormous privilege and I'm hugely, hugely excited by the by the by both portfolios, but by all elements of each of them as well. I'm pleased to say that you don't have to be a scientist to hold the Science portfolio. And I will be the first person to tell you I'm definitely not a scientist, but you do have to understand science and ultimately to have and I do an enormous amount of respect for those people who work in that sector and the importance and the value of the work that they do in the sciences and from the field trips I've had so far, the conversations and engagement that I've had with with our science community so far, I'm absolutely amazed and inspired by the work that they're doing and the is you know.

The value that that work has.

The value that that work has.

For yes, financially, but also from an environmental and from a community perspective. It's amazing to see the kind of Yeah, the kind of work that's taking place in that space of New Zealand or has.

For yes, financially, but also from an environmental and from a community perspective. It's amazing to see the kind of Yeah, the kind of work that's taking place in that space of New Zealand or has.

Been Yeah, and through that lends I guess your predecessor in that sort of portfolio. Doctor Deborah Russell was quite critical in December off the cuts to the Milestone fund, taking humanities and social science, you know, out of that funding bucket. Labor's been quite critical of the cuts to scientists in the in the public sector. You know, around about five hundred jobs between people going from Callahan University job CRI job, so Labour's been quite vocal about that. But you know, reflecting on the last few years of Labour's approach to science and innovation, you know, my take on it would be that I think Labor left it way too late in its second term in government to really get the ball rolling on some of its changes in this space. You had the Green Paper, the Future Pathways, you know, solid piece of work, but never came to fruition before the election and it was sort of dismantled by the you know, the Coalition government. You had the Industry Transformation Plan, you had Agritech, Digital Advanced Manufacturing. Some really good work went into all of that, but again, because it was left late in the sort of second term, it was very easy for National to come in and say no, we're just going to do away with that as well. Do you think that on reflection, was a real problem for your predecessors that they had some big ideas, they saw the need to change, but they left it a little bit too late.

Been Yeah, and through that lends I guess your predecessor in that sort of portfolio. Doctor Deborah Russell was quite critical in December off the cuts to the Milestone fund, taking humanities and social science, you know, out of that funding bucket. Labor's been quite critical of the cuts to scientists in the in the public sector. You know, around about five hundred jobs between people going from Callahan University job CRI job, so Labour's been quite vocal about that. But you know, reflecting on the last few years of Labour's approach to science and innovation, you know, my take on it would be that I think Labor left it way too late in its second term in government to really get the ball rolling on some of its changes in this space. You had the Green Paper, the Future Pathways, you know, solid piece of work, but never came to fruition before the election and it was sort of dismantled by the you know, the Coalition government. You had the Industry Transformation Plan, you had Agritech, Digital Advanced Manufacturing. Some really good work went into all of that, but again, because it was left late in the sort of second term, it was very easy for National to come in and say no, we're just going to do away with that as well. Do you think that on reflection, was a real problem for your predecessors that they had some big ideas, they saw the need to change, but they left it a little bit too late.

Yeah, there's a couple couple of things there, really, I guess.

Yeah, there's a couple couple of things there, really, I guess.

I mean, I wasn't there in that in that previous term, our most recent term and government. But I think we're all aware that there were a number of things that no one must expect to happen, and that to a large extent made it really difficult to do some of the things that would have been good and that that had been desired to happen, and that certainly change in this space in our science sector was one of those things.

I mean, I wasn't there in that in that previous term, our most recent term and government. But I think we're all aware that there were a number of things that no one must expect to happen, and that to a large extent made it really difficult to do some of the things that would have been good and that that had been desired to happen, and that certainly change in this space in our science sector was one of those things.

But I think, on balance, I'm very.

But I think, on balance, I'm very.

Proud of the legacy that that government has and at the response to COVID that that we rolled out, I think that was remarkable. I think what we're what we've seen in this current government's approach, and I share, you know, the previous spokesperson, Debrah's sentiments on this. We've seen a very destabilizing approach and we're in the media sector, we can see that there was a crisis that we were heading toward. It feels very much to me in the science sector that this is a this is a crisis that's been created so and I'm not suggesting necessary that that's intentional, but if it's unintentional, then that doesn't also make it any better.

Proud of the legacy that that government has and at the response to COVID that that we rolled out, I think that was remarkable. I think what we're what we've seen in this current government's approach, and I share, you know, the previous spokesperson, Debrah's sentiments on this. We've seen a very destabilizing approach and we're in the media sector, we can see that there was a crisis that we were heading toward. It feels very much to me in the science sector that this is a this is a crisis that's been created so and I'm not suggesting necessary that that's intentional, but if it's unintentional, then that doesn't also make it any better.

I think there's.

I think there's.

Been a huge level of uncertainty that's been created through the change and the cuts, and I think that one of the things that struck me from my first visit with the new portfolio was that science and our science community don't work to the electoral cycle. There's a long, long valuable projects and when you see a pendulum swing as extreme as the one that we've seen in this first eighteen months of this government, and the uncertainty that that's created in the science sector, it's immensely destabilizing to projects underway, but also to the workforce overall. That's too people who are in New Zealand, internationals in New Zealand assisting with research. It's two New Zealand residents who are part of that science community and just aren't sure anymore whether there's viable work for them. And it also has a really detrimental effect to people who are considering science as a future career and as a future opportunity and some of the great and incredibly valuable jobs that exist in that science sector really lose the viability that they had because so much uncertainty is created.

Been a huge level of uncertainty that's been created through the change and the cuts, and I think that one of the things that struck me from my first visit with the new portfolio was that science and our science community don't work to the electoral cycle. There's a long, long valuable projects and when you see a pendulum swing as extreme as the one that we've seen in this first eighteen months of this government, and the uncertainty that that's created in the science sector, it's immensely destabilizing to projects underway, but also to the workforce overall. That's too people who are in New Zealand, internationals in New Zealand assisting with research. It's two New Zealand residents who are part of that science community and just aren't sure anymore whether there's viable work for them. And it also has a really detrimental effect to people who are considering science as a future career and as a future opportunity and some of the great and incredibly valuable jobs that exist in that science sector really lose the viability that they had because so much uncertainty is created.

Yeah, it's devastating for my colleagues in the science sector who I talked to, you know, considering literally going for greener pastures. Although the US has its own problems with its science secret at the moment with the Doge knife being wielded through there. So this is by no means a New Zealand thing. But the headcount has gone down, budgets have been in science. But you did recognize labor, you know, years ago that change, structural change needed to happen to how we do science and innovation. Our R and D spend isn't increasing the way it should be. Our Crown Research Institute weren't really working effectively together. Our innovation system was fragmented and siloed. We kept hearing this decade after decade, so change needed to happen. We've now had Sir Peter Gluckman's report back the Science Sector Advisory Group. The government has come back and said what it plans to do. Where has that landed for you? Did it reflect some of the things that labor wanted to see happen, and which were outlined in that earlier sort of green paper.

Yeah, it's devastating for my colleagues in the science sector who I talked to, you know, considering literally going for greener pastures. Although the US has its own problems with its science secret at the moment with the Doge knife being wielded through there. So this is by no means a New Zealand thing. But the headcount has gone down, budgets have been in science. But you did recognize labor, you know, years ago that change, structural change needed to happen to how we do science and innovation. Our R and D spend isn't increasing the way it should be. Our Crown Research Institute weren't really working effectively together. Our innovation system was fragmented and siloed. We kept hearing this decade after decade, so change needed to happen. We've now had Sir Peter Gluckman's report back the Science Sector Advisory Group. The government has come back and said what it plans to do. Where has that landed for you? Did it reflect some of the things that labor wanted to see happen, and which were outlined in that earlier sort of green paper.

Yeah. Look, I think I think the biggest thing is that.

Yeah. Look, I think I think the biggest thing is that.

We had identified that then that there was a need for change in the sector and that there could be benefit from having a look at the structure of you the CRIS and that move to the pro model that has transpired isn't necessarily all bad, but I think it's the approach that for me is the thing that has been the most damaging. So it's that lack of engagement, lack of certainty, lack of in some case, as I would suggest, respect of some really really crucial building blocks of our science community. And as a result, it's very hard to engage with people and bring them back on board when the process has set out as badly as this one has.

We had identified that then that there was a need for change in the sector and that there could be benefit from having a look at the structure of you the CRIS and that move to the pro model that has transpired isn't necessarily all bad, but I think it's the approach that for me is the thing that has been the most damaging. So it's that lack of engagement, lack of certainty, lack of in some case, as I would suggest, respect of some really really crucial building blocks of our science community. And as a result, it's very hard to engage with people and bring them back on board when the process has set out as badly as this one has.

So there's a loss of trust in the mechanism really in your view, that scientists have their views haven't been listened to.

So there's a loss of trust in the mechanism really in your view, that scientists have their views haven't been listened to.

Yeah, that's certainly a sense that I get, and that the change hasn't been well communicated or rational, and that it's felt like rolling change rather than setting out a picture of what the end result is and having the conversations to bring people with you. It's felt very much like something that's happening to our science community.

Yeah, that's certainly a sense that I get, and that the change hasn't been well communicated or rational, and that it's felt like rolling change rather than setting out a picture of what the end result is and having the conversations to bring people with you. It's felt very much like something that's happening to our science community.

Not with yeah and undepending it all. No matter what we do, how we shift around a deck chairs, whether we create a new public research organization which is the plan around advanced technologies, or merge the other ones, we're still with a sinking lead on funding under this government. As Debora Russell said, New Zealand only spends half the OECD average on science research and development. Until we tackle that fundamental funding problem, we're really going to be struggling to do anything with infrastructure or the skills development that we need for a decent innovation system.

Not with yeah and undepending it all. No matter what we do, how we shift around a deck chairs, whether we create a new public research organization which is the plan around advanced technologies, or merge the other ones, we're still with a sinking lead on funding under this government. As Debora Russell said, New Zealand only spends half the OECD average on science research and development. Until we tackle that fundamental funding problem, we're really going to be struggling to do anything with infrastructure or the skills development that we need for a decent innovation system.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think you know she's right, definitely.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think you know she's right, definitely.

Yeah. So I guess, you know, we haven't really heard much yet, and it's normal, I guess early in the cycle about you know, what Labor is planning to do. I haven't seen much on the website other than the sort of pressure press releases criticizing some of the government's moves. But is there any central sort of theme to what you're thinking around the science and innovation portfolio emerging so far?

Yeah. So I guess, you know, we haven't really heard much yet, and it's normal, I guess early in the cycle about you know, what Labor is planning to do. I haven't seen much on the website other than the sort of pressure press releases criticizing some of the government's moves. But is there any central sort of theme to what you're thinking around the science and innovation portfolio emerging so far?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Look, I mean to be fair, I've primarily in my time in the spokesperson role. So far, it's really been getting up to speed with what the current changes are and the impacts those are having. So for me, that's that's been a large part of the focus of the last few weeks in the role has just been to go, Okay, where is all of this landing, and who's been taken on the journey and who's been left behind. I think ultimately the continuous piece of feedback, or the consistent piece of feedback I'm getting, is that we do need to be doing more in this space.

Look, I mean to be fair, I've primarily in my time in the spokesperson role. So far, it's really been getting up to speed with what the current changes are and the impacts those are having. So for me, that's that's been a large part of the focus of the last few weeks in the role has just been to go, Okay, where is all of this landing, and who's been taken on the journey and who's been left behind. I think ultimately the continuous piece of feedback, or the consistent piece of feedback I'm getting, is that we do need to be doing more in this space.

It leads to.

It leads to.

Huge economic games for New Zealand. It creates amazing jobs that bring people to the country but also provide fantastic careers for local people in the sector, and so we need to be looking at what more can we be doing to support this sector into the future, rather than the current approach which has not been doing that.

Huge economic games for New Zealand. It creates amazing jobs that bring people to the country but also provide fantastic careers for local people in the sector, and so we need to be looking at what more can we be doing to support this sector into the future, rather than the current approach which has not been doing that.

Yeah, A sort of sub category within science is artificial intelligence. You recently held an AI summit, which unfortunately I wasn't able to get to. Chris Hipkins sort of spoke at that. You had a number of experts giving their views on AI. What really shook out from that? What ideas did you get from that to shape Labour's policy on AI.

Yeah, A sort of sub category within science is artificial intelligence. You recently held an AI summit, which unfortunately I wasn't able to get to. Chris Hipkins sort of spoke at that. You had a number of experts giving their views on AI. What really shook out from that? What ideas did you get from that to shape Labour's policy on AI.

Yeah, look, it was it was for us.

Yeah, look, it was it was for us.

It was an opportunity to put the right people in the room and to have a conversation that a number of people myself included, just don't think has happened yet in New Zealand. And so that one for us was about Chris. Chris gave a really good opening address. Francis Valentine also gave a really good scene set for the room about where you know, where the world is at and some New Zealand context around that. And we also had a really good piece up top from David Torbert who Torbert Mills, who had done a survey of those in the room but also has research into wider perspectives and opinions on artificial intelligence in the wider New Zealand populace. So that gave us a really good scene set up top before we stepped into two panels across the afternoon to explore in the first panel, where have we gotten up to and in the second panel, where do we go now? It's probably the simplest, simplest single line summaries for each of those, and the representation on those panels was for me really important because what we wanted to make sure was that we had a very good cross section of opinion and perspectives.

It was an opportunity to put the right people in the room and to have a conversation that a number of people myself included, just don't think has happened yet in New Zealand. And so that one for us was about Chris. Chris gave a really good opening address. Francis Valentine also gave a really good scene set for the room about where you know, where the world is at and some New Zealand context around that. And we also had a really good piece up top from David Torbert who Torbert Mills, who had done a survey of those in the room but also has research into wider perspectives and opinions on artificial intelligence in the wider New Zealand populace. So that gave us a really good scene set up top before we stepped into two panels across the afternoon to explore in the first panel, where have we gotten up to and in the second panel, where do we go now? It's probably the simplest, simplest single line summaries for each of those, and the representation on those panels was for me really important because what we wanted to make sure was that we had a very good cross section of opinion and perspectives.

So we needed to have.

So we needed to have.

Some industry there, some tech industry who are using AI, but we also wanted to have strong academic perspective.

Some industry there, some tech industry who are using AI, but we also wanted to have strong academic perspective.

We wanted to have the worker's voice there.

We wanted to have the worker's voice there.

There's some very real considerations for workers and workforce around the impacts of AI policy perspectives, access and equity. We had some very strong proponents and also data sovereignty, which has some unique challenges and opportunities in the New Zealand context. So really the that was the composition of the afternoon. We had a number of other It was very well attended and we did have your notice on those panels. There's no big tech presence on those panels, but we did have a number of representatives in the room and around the conversations as well. So, I mean, the main things that came out of the session across the afternoon was the need for education and upskilling on the subject of artificial intelligence across all communities. Definitely a strong conversation and steering from the room towards regulatory frameworks, so looking at what are the international examples that are really working well and which parts of those are going to perform and be needed in the New Zealand context. And specific to that, really the tail Maldi perspective around how we te kung into artificial intelligence and the bigger QUI around sovereign AI for New Zealand.

There's some very real considerations for workers and workforce around the impacts of AI policy perspectives, access and equity. We had some very strong proponents and also data sovereignty, which has some unique challenges and opportunities in the New Zealand context. So really the that was the composition of the afternoon. We had a number of other It was very well attended and we did have your notice on those panels. There's no big tech presence on those panels, but we did have a number of representatives in the room and around the conversations as well. So, I mean, the main things that came out of the session across the afternoon was the need for education and upskilling on the subject of artificial intelligence across all communities. Definitely a strong conversation and steering from the room towards regulatory frameworks, so looking at what are the international examples that are really working well and which parts of those are going to perform and be needed in the New Zealand context. And specific to that, really the tail Maldi perspective around how we te kung into artificial intelligence and the bigger QUI around sovereign AI for New Zealand.

Yeah, and that last one is particularly topical at the moment. You talked about big tech not being on the panel but being in the room, and there definitely is a discussion burning around the world at the moment about our reliance, and some would say over reliance in this country on the big tech tech stack. We've built our government systems and many of our businesses on us technology and now have someone in the White House who on a whim could sort of change the rules of the game around technology that we can access. So this is something that no government really in recent use, has given much thought to. Is that something that's emerging in labor as a potential policy platform around developing our own sovereign technology to run critical services like government.

Yeah, and that last one is particularly topical at the moment. You talked about big tech not being on the panel but being in the room, and there definitely is a discussion burning around the world at the moment about our reliance, and some would say over reliance in this country on the big tech tech stack. We've built our government systems and many of our businesses on us technology and now have someone in the White House who on a whim could sort of change the rules of the game around technology that we can access. So this is something that no government really in recent use, has given much thought to. Is that something that's emerging in labor as a potential policy platform around developing our own sovereign technology to run critical services like government.

I think it will be irresponsible for any government or party that wants to be the next government in twenty twenty six to not have a very clear plan around who and how AI should be enabled and managed with them within New Zealand beyond well now and into twenty twenty six. So I think, yeah, the sort of sit back and wait and see approach won't work.

I think it will be irresponsible for any government or party that wants to be the next government in twenty twenty six to not have a very clear plan around who and how AI should be enabled and managed with them within New Zealand beyond well now and into twenty twenty six. So I think, yeah, the sort of sit back and wait and see approach won't work.

The potential for AI to.

The potential for AI to.

Have an incredibly positive impact for New Zealand and New Zealanders is very real, but it also has the potential if we don't do it well, to actually create you know, very very deep division between those who have access to AI and those who don't. So we do need to be very proactive in that space. I don't think the current approach or the current the government's current approach has been proactive enough. And I think there's a real risk if, if, if we don't really engage with that, that we simply become a market for for you know, super big foreign AI companies, and I think that would be that's that's not a direction that New Zealand would want to heed.

Have an incredibly positive impact for New Zealand and New Zealanders is very real, but it also has the potential if we don't do it well, to actually create you know, very very deep division between those who have access to AI and those who don't. So we do need to be very proactive in that space. I don't think the current approach or the current the government's current approach has been proactive enough. And I think there's a real risk if, if, if we don't really engage with that, that we simply become a market for for you know, super big foreign AI companies, and I think that would be that's that's not a direction that New Zealand would want to heed.

Yeah, and arguably we're already there, so unpacking that or unpicking it is going to be challenging. But in terms of the the policy settings, we don't have dedicated AI regulation in New Zealand yet. You know, Judith Colin said she wanted a proportional, risk based and light touch approach to regulating AI. So we've got the Privacy Act, we've got other bits of legislation. Do you think that's been a pragmatic approach. We've seen obviously the EU with the AI Act going really big on legislation, Australia doing its own version of that. We've sort of sat on the sidelines, I guess to see what happens. Has that turned out to be a smart move? Do you think?

Yeah, and arguably we're already there, so unpacking that or unpicking it is going to be challenging. But in terms of the the policy settings, we don't have dedicated AI regulation in New Zealand yet. You know, Judith Colin said she wanted a proportional, risk based and light touch approach to regulating AI. So we've got the Privacy Act, we've got other bits of legislation. Do you think that's been a pragmatic approach. We've seen obviously the EU with the AI Act going really big on legislation, Australia doing its own version of that. We've sort of sat on the sidelines, I guess to see what happens. Has that turned out to be a smart move? Do you think?

I think I think it has a level of risk and.

I think I think it has a level of risk and.

How smart it has been remains to be seen, But I think I mean there.

How smart it has been remains to be seen, But I think I mean there.

Are some.

Are some.

Yeah, there's there's some potential positives that can come out of the weight and see approach. But it's about getting that balance right between being a fast follower in whether you're a fast enough follower, but also doing what New Zealand's done really well on a number of occasions in the past where we actually take the lead on something. And I think that the risk with sitting the sort of weight and see pragmatic approach is that you can get left behind. It can be too it can become too late.

Yeah, there's there's some potential positives that can come out of the weight and see approach. But it's about getting that balance right between being a fast follower in whether you're a fast enough follower, but also doing what New Zealand's done really well on a number of occasions in the past where we actually take the lead on something. And I think that the risk with sitting the sort of weight and see pragmatic approach is that you can get left behind. It can be too it can become too late.

Yeah, and you know all the surveys, you'll have seen them as much as I have from the AI forum, and that sort of suggests that we're a little bit behind the ball and our adoption of AI. So getting that balance right is really important. The skills issue and the disruption to the workforce that potentially is coming. You know, I'm talking to software development companies that are seeing massive efficiencies and how coding is done, which is great for their customers, great for New Zealand businesses and their productivity, but it means that as an entry level software developer, you're not doing the sort of grunt work learning to code type roles that would have occupied the first year or two of your career. So what are we going to do with those graduates? So I guess, and this is something that National hasn't really addressed to any extent. Labor at least had the Industry Transformation Plan, which did a lot of work around digital skills. To what extent does this need to be government sort of driven or should this be industry and tertiary sector driven?

Yeah, and you know all the surveys, you'll have seen them as much as I have from the AI forum, and that sort of suggests that we're a little bit behind the ball and our adoption of AI. So getting that balance right is really important. The skills issue and the disruption to the workforce that potentially is coming. You know, I'm talking to software development companies that are seeing massive efficiencies and how coding is done, which is great for their customers, great for New Zealand businesses and their productivity, but it means that as an entry level software developer, you're not doing the sort of grunt work learning to code type roles that would have occupied the first year or two of your career. So what are we going to do with those graduates? So I guess, and this is something that National hasn't really addressed to any extent. Labor at least had the Industry Transformation Plan, which did a lot of work around digital skills. To what extent does this need to be government sort of driven or should this be industry and tertiary sector driven?

Yeah, Look, I think the government has a role to play in this space. What we're seeing is, you know, potential mass disruption to some parts of the workforce, and so what we need to have there is a plan for redeployment of those people into new areas, but also for people to be able to transition across into new industry. And so that's where we need to be looking at things like micro credentials, at people being able to train into new jobs that may come into an existent come into existence with the uptake or introduction of AI into stecters or areas that they've previously worked.

Yeah, Look, I think the government has a role to play in this space. What we're seeing is, you know, potential mass disruption to some parts of the workforce, and so what we need to have there is a plan for redeployment of those people into new areas, but also for people to be able to transition across into new industry. And so that's where we need to be looking at things like micro credentials, at people being able to train into new jobs that may come into an existent come into existence with the uptake or introduction of AI into stecters or areas that they've previously worked.

And I mean one of the things that.

And I mean one of the things that.

And you know, you give the example of coding one of the other areas that we see AIS is that it's not necessarily coming in at the super entry level, and it's certainly not coming in at the high end. But if it's eroding that workforce or that part of the workforce in any sector or industry that is carrying out the kind of mid level roles, then how do the new intake grow into the more senior roles.

And you know, you give the example of coding one of the other areas that we see AIS is that it's not necessarily coming in at the super entry level, and it's certainly not coming in at the high end. But if it's eroding that workforce or that part of the workforce in any sector or industry that is carrying out the kind of mid level roles, then how do the new intake grow into the more senior roles.

All of a sudden, You've you've got.

All of a sudden, You've you've got.

A real hole in the middle of your workforce and career development. So we do need to have a plan in there for how we address that, and I think that government can have a role to put some teams and structures in place in conjunction with industry and in condunction with the education sector. But it's not necessarily that people will need to go and do a whole other degree, but they might need a micro credential or some short training or some apprenticeship style training to transition them across with transferable skills into a new role, either in the same industry or in a parallel industry.

A real hole in the middle of your workforce and career development. So we do need to have a plan in there for how we address that, and I think that government can have a role to put some teams and structures in place in conjunction with industry and in condunction with the education sector. But it's not necessarily that people will need to go and do a whole other degree, but they might need a micro credential or some short training or some apprenticeship style training to transition them across with transferable skills into a new role, either in the same industry or in a parallel industry.

One thing that Labor did get across the line in its second term was the tax subsidy for the video game sector, which the industry had lobbied hard for was getting huge competition from state and federal subsidies in Australia, which was seeing people leaving New Zealand to go and work in the industry over there. You've been meeting with the industry recently. What's your take on how well that is going and is that something that Labor would sort of commit to if it was in government again.

One thing that Labor did get across the line in its second term was the tax subsidy for the video game sector, which the industry had lobbied hard for was getting huge competition from state and federal subsidies in Australia, which was seeing people leaving New Zealand to go and work in the industry over there. You've been meeting with the industry recently. What's your take on how well that is going and is that something that Labor would sort of commit to if it was in government again.

Yeah, Look, it's my sense is that it's working very well and that it's really coming to fruition. Now we've seen major uplift in the value that the gaming industry has it contributes to New Zealand. So I think it was four hundred and something million it's now looking to be seven hundred and something million, so that's an almost doubling and that growth curve, there's no reason that that growth curve won't continue.

Yeah, Look, it's my sense is that it's working very well and that it's really coming to fruition. Now we've seen major uplift in the value that the gaming industry has it contributes to New Zealand. So I think it was four hundred and something million it's now looking to be seven hundred and something million, so that's an almost doubling and that growth curve, there's no reason that that growth curve won't continue.

That was a set that we knew was really I.

That was a set that we knew was really I.

Mean, I wasn't in government at the time, I wasn't an MP, but I understand that there were you know, gaming conventions in New Zealand where Australian recruit recruiters were coming to those conventions and literally poaching people from New Zealand to go and work in the Australian industry. And they were also offering New Zealand companies huge incentives, relocation costs that find them in the building that basically do all the heavy lifting to lift and shift really successful gaming studios from New Zealand into various parts of Australia where they could you know, keep doing what they were doing, but with really good tax incentives and a whole lot of assistance to make that move. So I think that an investment like that was very nimble, very good, very good leadership from the then Labor government. It's borne good fruit and we're going to see the results of that, you know, when we get the reporting through for.

Mean, I wasn't in government at the time, I wasn't an MP, but I understand that there were you know, gaming conventions in New Zealand where Australian recruit recruiters were coming to those conventions and literally poaching people from New Zealand to go and work in the Australian industry. And they were also offering New Zealand companies huge incentives, relocation costs that find them in the building that basically do all the heavy lifting to lift and shift really successful gaming studios from New Zealand into various parts of Australia where they could you know, keep doing what they were doing, but with really good tax incentives and a whole lot of assistance to make that move. So I think that an investment like that was very nimble, very good, very good leadership from the then Labor government. It's borne good fruit and we're going to see the results of that, you know, when we get the reporting through for.

Where it's at now, whether or not it continues.

Where it's at now, whether or not it continues.

I mean, I think there's a real argument to be made when it was a forty million dollar commitment and within that first year, I think it was.

I mean, I think there's a real argument to be made when it was a forty million dollar commitment and within that first year, I think it was.

Something like two hundred million in tax reef that came in.

Something like two hundred million in tax reef that came in.

So you do look at that and go, well, one of those things is more than paying for the other.

So you do look at that and go, well, one of those things is more than paying for the other.

It's a good incentive. That's an example of.

It's a good incentive. That's an example of.

Government getting involved to support an industry that can then do very well locally and contribute economically.

Government getting involved to support an industry that can then do very well locally and contribute economically.

Yeah, okay, So just to finish off a few sort of things that have come up in recent years that have been controversial, interesting to get your take on some of them, to see where labor is sort of heading towards twenty twenty six, and potentially you'll be in the Science and Innovation portfolio. The disestablishment of Callahan Innovation good idea.

Yeah, okay, So just to finish off a few sort of things that have come up in recent years that have been controversial, interesting to get your take on some of them, to see where labor is sort of heading towards twenty twenty six, and potentially you'll be in the Science and Innovation portfolio. The disestablishment of Callahan Innovation good idea.

No, I don't think it's been a good idea, and I don't think it's been a good process.

No, I don't think it's been a good idea, and I don't think it's been a good process.

Okay, what about the changes to visas to try and get a high net worth people into New Zealand, highly skilled people. I think they're basically envisaging that former Google engineers are going to come here. Maybe invest some money in a startup and put their expertise into New Zealand companies. What do you think about that?

Okay, what about the changes to visas to try and get a high net worth people into New Zealand, highly skilled people. I think they're basically envisaging that former Google engineers are going to come here. Maybe invest some money in a startup and put their expertise into New Zealand companies. What do you think about that?

This is the digital nomad approach.

This is the digital nomad approach.

There's a digital nomad and then there's the sort of the goal visa informally they call it, which is, if you invest a certain amount of money into a business here, you get a pathway to residency.

There's a digital nomad and then there's the sort of the goal visa informally they call it, which is, if you invest a certain amount of money into a business here, you get a pathway to residency.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't actually probably know enough about that one to give you a very well informed answer.

I don't actually probably know enough about that one to give you a very well informed answer.

Yeah. The Junking of Science said that was a big initiative that Labor had on its plate that was focused around Wellington, quite a big one. Hundreds of millions of investment was one of the first things that National next when it got in. How do you feel about that?

Yeah. The Junking of Science said that was a big initiative that Labor had on its plate that was focused around Wellington, quite a big one. Hundreds of millions of investment was one of the first things that National next when it got in. How do you feel about that?

Well, I mean, I think it's it's been disappointing to see the number of things that have been cut with no alternative plan or vision in place.

Well, I mean, I think it's it's been disappointing to see the number of things that have been cut with no alternative plan or vision in place.

Yeah, and we've got to be realistic about the funding situation. So I guess when it comes down to it, I mean, when is Labor going to run the numbers and see what's available for science and innovation. That's the big question. All of these scientists who are sitting on the fence looking around the world going do I continue my career in Germany or the UK or somewhere else. When are we likely to get a sign from Labor about that much needed boost in science and innovation funding, whether it's actually going to happen under a Labor government.

Yeah, and we've got to be realistic about the funding situation. So I guess when it comes down to it, I mean, when is Labor going to run the numbers and see what's available for science and innovation. That's the big question. All of these scientists who are sitting on the fence looking around the world going do I continue my career in Germany or the UK or somewhere else. When are we likely to get a sign from Labor about that much needed boost in science and innovation funding, whether it's actually going to happen under a Labor government.

Yeah, look, I mean that's definitely something that we're looking at across twenty twenty five leading into an election year having some clear positions and policies across the board, But in the science space, I wouldn't expect that to be any different. That there needs to be a clear plan and indication from people of what is the difference that you get from a label led government versus the crisis that's been created in the sector by the current coalition.

Yeah, look, I mean that's definitely something that we're looking at across twenty twenty five leading into an election year having some clear positions and policies across the board, But in the science space, I wouldn't expect that to be any different. That there needs to be a clear plan and indication from people of what is the difference that you get from a label led government versus the crisis that's been created in the sector by the current coalition.

Yeah, and yeah, I guess you know that's going to be the question philosophically, what is Labor's fundamentally different approach? What will you keep and you know, what will how will you carve a different a different path. So that's still to come. But as you go around the science and innovation sector talk to startups and they're like, what are you seeing at the moment where you think, wow, that is genuine opportunity for new Zealand and if we did direct some targeted resources into this, either in funding or in policy measures or some sort of trade support internationally, our startups and our scientists could really thrive. Are there any areas where you think that is something we should focus on.

Yeah, and yeah, I guess you know that's going to be the question philosophically, what is Labor's fundamentally different approach? What will you keep and you know, what will how will you carve a different a different path. So that's still to come. But as you go around the science and innovation sector talk to startups and they're like, what are you seeing at the moment where you think, wow, that is genuine opportunity for new Zealand and if we did direct some targeted resources into this, either in funding or in policy measures or some sort of trade support internationally, our startups and our scientists could really thrive. Are there any areas where you think that is something we should focus on.

Yeah, Look, I mean I think that's probably a really good, good opportunity just to revisit the success of the rebate for the gaming sector, because that's exactly what's what's happened there where where it was an industry that could see that, you know, they literally had written their obituary because they could see that that what was happening in Australia. The lure of Australia and the energy and resource behind that kind of raid on talent and New Zealand companies were so real from Australia that they could see that that that could spell the.

Yeah, Look, I mean I think that's probably a really good, good opportunity just to revisit the success of the rebate for the gaming sector, because that's exactly what's what's happened there where where it was an industry that could see that, you know, they literally had written their obituary because they could see that that what was happening in Australia. The lure of Australia and the energy and resource behind that kind of raid on talent and New Zealand companies were so real from Australia that they could see that that that could spell the.

End for a New Zealand industry.

End for a New Zealand industry.

And with a you know, relatively small investment, the yield has been rapid and strong, and I think that you can see that that that that growth could continue. There's no reason that further investment wouldn't continue to have the same or greater yield from from the gaming sector.

And with a you know, relatively small investment, the yield has been rapid and strong, and I think that you can see that that that that growth could continue. There's no reason that further investment wouldn't continue to have the same or greater yield from from the gaming sector.

So I think it's.

So I think it's.

Identifying opportunities like that and moving fast enough to support them. And that's about having a really good understanding of those sectors, but also a good respectful relationship with those sectors. And I think that's what we've seen eroded so quickly with our science community has been that that conversation hasn't been.

Identifying opportunities like that and moving fast enough to support them. And that's about having a really good understanding of those sectors, but also a good respectful relationship with those sectors. And I think that's what we've seen eroded so quickly with our science community has been that that conversation hasn't been.

Appropriate and that community haven't been.

Appropriate and that community haven't been.

Allowed the opportunity to see what the vision or the plan is, if in fact there is one. And I think that's what was so good about the rebate for the gaming sector was it was a really good working relationship between government and industry that led to some support for industry that ultimately has had such a positive result.

Allowed the opportunity to see what the vision or the plan is, if in fact there is one. And I think that's what was so good about the rebate for the gaming sector was it was a really good working relationship between government and industry that led to some support for industry that ultimately has had such a positive result.

Just finally, with your other hat on your Broadcasting, Media and Creative Economy hat, we talked at the start about the pilot state of the media goes for production companies through to mainstream media outlets. Last year was a disastrous year, the loss of news Hub. We've seen ends in me have its own cutbacks this year. Interest in your take on the Digital News Bargaining Bill. What did you think of it? I was, obviously Willie Jackson who shepherded that through towards the end of the second term that Labor was in for it seems to have gone very quiet. Do you think it's dead? Do you think literally the negotiating with big tech is no longer viable.

Just finally, with your other hat on your Broadcasting, Media and Creative Economy hat, we talked at the start about the pilot state of the media goes for production companies through to mainstream media outlets. Last year was a disastrous year, the loss of news Hub. We've seen ends in me have its own cutbacks this year. Interest in your take on the Digital News Bargaining Bill. What did you think of it? I was, obviously Willie Jackson who shepherded that through towards the end of the second term that Labor was in for it seems to have gone very quiet. Do you think it's dead? Do you think literally the negotiating with big tech is no longer viable.

Yeah, Look, I mean my sense is that dead. And I think that's a huge shame. I think that if the previous minister had moved faster, and if the current minister had moved at all, it could have gotten over the line.

Yeah, Look, I mean my sense is that dead. And I think that's a huge shame. I think that if the previous minister had moved faster, and if the current minister had moved at all, it could have gotten over the line.

I think there's very little chance of that happening now. And I do sense.

I think there's very little chance of that happening now. And I do sense.

I mean my sense from my personal opinion, but also from the conversations I've had with you across the industry, is that it did and would have made and the fact that it was a potential was having a positive impact, and if it had been moved through at the speed it deserved, it would have had a real positive impact across particularly across the local news media and their ability to actually get some financial return for sharing of their content across platforms. I think the most frustrating thing, other than the fact that it's just been kind of mothballed with very little communication or clarity from the minister, is that there appears to be.

I mean my sense from my personal opinion, but also from the conversations I've had with you across the industry, is that it did and would have made and the fact that it was a potential was having a positive impact, and if it had been moved through at the speed it deserved, it would have had a real positive impact across particularly across the local news media and their ability to actually get some financial return for sharing of their content across platforms. I think the most frustrating thing, other than the fact that it's just been kind of mothballed with very little communication or clarity from the minister, is that there appears to be.

Absolutely nothing in its place. So I mean, I think.

Absolutely nothing in its place. So I mean, I think.

Where what are we two hundred and eighty something days now that that gods must been the Minister for Broadcasting and Media. We've seen five ideas put out for people industry to consider, with a strong caveat that none of them have got cabinet approval or funding attached. And I mean there's some okay ideas in there. There's probably nothing wrong really with any of the ideas in that document, but none of them are going to go anywhere near addressing the current crisis in local media. And none of them, or maybe one of the five, actually does anything to address the challenges in local news media.

Where what are we two hundred and eighty something days now that that gods must been the Minister for Broadcasting and Media. We've seen five ideas put out for people industry to consider, with a strong caveat that none of them have got cabinet approval or funding attached. And I mean there's some okay ideas in there. There's probably nothing wrong really with any of the ideas in that document, but none of them are going to go anywhere near addressing the current crisis in local media. And none of them, or maybe one of the five, actually does anything to address the challenges in local news media.

So it's pretty disappointing to see that there's.

So it's pretty disappointing to see that there's.

You know, there were good ideas sitting there ready to be enacted, and for whatever reason, and I won't try and guess why, but for whatever reason, none of them have been And the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill would have been a a really positive step to support local news media at an unpreceding time of crisis.

You know, there were good ideas sitting there ready to be enacted, and for whatever reason, and I won't try and guess why, but for whatever reason, none of them have been And the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill would have been a a really positive step to support local news media at an unpreceding time of crisis.

Yeah, unfortunately, it's it sort of has failed gradually everywhere, whether it's Australia or Canada. You know, there's been deals done with big tech over there, but meta has sort of turned its back on on those sorts of arrangements. Interestingly, one of the last things that Labor did, I think, on its last day in Parliament in its last term, was table some legislation around, you know, a digital tax, which many see around the world as the alternative to a sort of a news bargaining bill with media companies. Instead of wrangling all of that, why don't you just slap a two percent tax, for instance, on the revenue of big tech companies in New Zealand. Is that something that's still in your thinking or is the tariff chaos that the US is wielding at the moment a real disincentive to try and do anything like that that might attract the ire of the US administration.

Yeah, unfortunately, it's it sort of has failed gradually everywhere, whether it's Australia or Canada. You know, there's been deals done with big tech over there, but meta has sort of turned its back on on those sorts of arrangements. Interestingly, one of the last things that Labor did, I think, on its last day in Parliament in its last term, was table some legislation around, you know, a digital tax, which many see around the world as the alternative to a sort of a news bargaining bill with media companies. Instead of wrangling all of that, why don't you just slap a two percent tax, for instance, on the revenue of big tech companies in New Zealand. Is that something that's still in your thinking or is the tariff chaos that the US is wielding at the moment a real disincentive to try and do anything like that that might attract the ire of the US administration.

Yeah, look, I think I think the current trade situation with the United States has complicated things a little. Probably be a slight understatement, but the I mean, one of the things that the members bill that I've got in the biscuit to unfortunately hasn't yet been pulled out, is a streamers levy.

Yeah, look, I think I think the current trade situation with the United States has complicated things a little. Probably be a slight understatement, but the I mean, one of the things that the members bill that I've got in the biscuit to unfortunately hasn't yet been pulled out, is a streamers levy.

So that's the same kind.

So that's the same kind.

Of idea right where there's a where there's the large media platforms that enjoy our custom and happily take you know, the fees that we pay for the privilege of watching their great content don't actually contribute to the local production sector enough or in most cases at all. So putting a mechanism in place that ensures that we can continue to hear you know, and see local stories, hear local voices. You know my background in children's television. When I started in that genre, there was just about every kind of show being made for New Zealand children. Here in New Zealand you can count the number of local shows on one hand. So I think we really have We do risk losing the ability to see ourselves on screen unless we shift the dynamics of the market to ensure that those big tech platforms that most big media players actually contribute to our local stories and our local identity.

Of idea right where there's a where there's the large media platforms that enjoy our custom and happily take you know, the fees that we pay for the privilege of watching their great content don't actually contribute to the local production sector enough or in most cases at all. So putting a mechanism in place that ensures that we can continue to hear you know, and see local stories, hear local voices. You know my background in children's television. When I started in that genre, there was just about every kind of show being made for New Zealand children. Here in New Zealand you can count the number of local shows on one hand. So I think we really have We do risk losing the ability to see ourselves on screen unless we shift the dynamics of the market to ensure that those big tech platforms that most big media players actually contribute to our local stories and our local identity.

Do you have it?

Do you have it?

So what did we learn from Ruben Davidson. He's clearly not happy with the science reforms, but no real indication of what labor would do to address or reverse the situation that the Coalition government has created with the cuts and the demise of Callahan Innovation and other things. He doesn't think the government is doing enough on artificial intelligence that we should be a fast follower applying regulation and initiatives to spur uptake that have been successful overseas. Not surprising. They're a big focus on the impact of AI on jobs and that's something with the labor movement so central to the Labor Party that you would expect from them, But no real articulation of what we're going to do or need to do as a country to help those people displaced by AI, which is definitely coming for us. On the media front, Davidson seems to think that if his predecessors had moved faster, and let's face it, Labor could have done this under Willie Jackson, Broadcasting Minister in the last term of the Labor government. If they'd move faster on a digital news bargaining bill, could it have been in place and been effective? Davidson thinks. So the question is how long would it have lasted anyway, before the likes of Google and Meta just walked away from it, as they've done in other countries. There was a lot of talk of the success of the tax rebate for the video game sector, which certainly has helped keep the industry intact and has contributed to growing revenues from the sector. So a good example of a targeted intervention that works. We're still a fair way from a general election. I wouldn't expect from policy pledges in these portfolio areas to be made until at least later this year or early into twenty twenty six. But if, as Ruben Davidson says, science, innovation, AI, media, the creative sector are really important to the future off our economy and society and deserve more of a focus the areas that warrant some policy heft this time around and a compelling long term vision for them. I'm not seeing that yet from labor. I do live in hope. So thanks to Ruben Davidson for coming on show. Notes are in the podcast section at Business Desk dot co dot nz, where you can stream the podcast. It's also on iHeartRadio and in your favorite podcast app. Please subscribe so you don't us an episode. Thanks for listening. Thanks to two degrees for sponsoring the show. We'll catch you next Thursday for another episode of the Business of Tech. Catch you then,

So what did we learn from Ruben Davidson. He's clearly not happy with the science reforms, but no real indication of what labor would do to address or reverse the situation that the Coalition government has created with the cuts and the demise of Callahan Innovation and other things. He doesn't think the government is doing enough on artificial intelligence that we should be a fast follower applying regulation and initiatives to spur uptake that have been successful overseas. Not surprising. They're a big focus on the impact of AI on jobs and that's something with the labor movement so central to the Labor Party that you would expect from them, But no real articulation of what we're going to do or need to do as a country to help those people displaced by AI, which is definitely coming for us. On the media front, Davidson seems to think that if his predecessors had moved faster, and let's face it, Labor could have done this under Willie Jackson, Broadcasting Minister in the last term of the Labor government. If they'd move faster on a digital news bargaining bill, could it have been in place and been effective? Davidson thinks. So the question is how long would it have lasted anyway, before the likes of Google and Meta just walked away from it, as they've done in other countries. There was a lot of talk of the success of the tax rebate for the video game sector, which certainly has helped keep the industry intact and has contributed to growing revenues from the sector. So a good example of a targeted intervention that works. We're still a fair way from a general election. I wouldn't expect from policy pledges in these portfolio areas to be made until at least later this year or early into twenty twenty six. But if, as Ruben Davidson says, science, innovation, AI, media, the creative sector are really important to the future off our economy and society and deserve more of a focus the areas that warrant some policy heft this time around and a compelling long term vision for them. I'm not seeing that yet from labor. I do live in hope. So thanks to Ruben Davidson for coming on show. Notes are in the podcast section at Business Desk dot co dot nz, where you can stream the podcast. It's also on iHeartRadio and in your favorite podcast app. Please subscribe so you don't us an episode. Thanks for listening. Thanks to two degrees for sponsoring the show. We'll catch you next Thursday for another episode of the Business of Tech. Catch you then,