Explicit

The Burden | 10. A Reckoning

Published May 14, 2024, 7:00 AM

Episode 10 of 10

Louie Scarcella bursts into tears. “It sucks. It sucks.” The swaggering detective has been brought low by jailhouse lawyers. But did one “rogue” cop hoodwink the system? What role did Scarcella play? We confront the famed detective who finally makes admissions and then…in an unexpected twist, Derrick confronts Louie in a zoom call. They have some words for one another. 

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Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden, I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood, which reached number one on the charts when it debuted half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled to share this story of a man who fought the law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh, wherever you get your podcasts.

Previously on The Burden, he went.

In the ice bed, he went in the ocean with me and past the task, right, that's the task. I was a highly decorated detective. They say I had three rooms full of metal citations, plaques. I burned everything. I want no part of it.

Just because the police said it doesn't make it true.

You know, just because the prosecutor said it doesn't mean that they were right. I am the protector of these people. I am the guardian that they need. Get the fuck out of my way.

This guy is a.

Piece of shit, but he gets to run around like he's gone.

When you get into things like this, everybody tells you don't do a podcast, but they're gonna screw you. They're gonna screw you. They're gonna screw you. Well, I just know people very well, and I read them and I know. I just know people, and I know everything from the to you guys, to everybody. It's no good to know everything was you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And sometimes it's figured that one out. But I do know everything. What did you read in me? Like that first time we met? You remember right right right? Yes, now you're I did not like you. I remember I was I was cooking onions and I was talking to you, and it was I was sitting on top of the count the cooking the onions, and I was on the phone with you, and I hung up and I was thinking about it, and I said, Okay, you got to put your trust in somebody. And even though it's so different. We didn't. We didn't grow up on the same block. I grew to love you. Wow Wow, Well I'm Italian.

Luis Garsella has spent the past decade trying to clear his name, trying to get people to believe that he didn't frame anyone, that he never coerced a confession. If he could, he would go door to door trying to convince each and every one of us that he's a very good person.

But louis up against it. The media has rendered its verdict. Disgraced detective, say the headlines. Even the Brooklyn District Attorney's office has turned on him. For years, they said he did nothing wrong. Now they too are blaming his police work for wrongful conviction.

So here we are.

We spent hours and hours talking to Scarcela, and as you know, we've spent about as much time talking to the people he helped put away. I'm talking about Shabaka Shakur, Robert Hill, Nelson Cruz, and of course his nemesis, Eric Hamilton.

And after all those conversations, it's time we gotta confront Louis Scarcella.

Louis, he's hoping for redemption, hoping for redemption through.

Us storm cloud of comments common straight to you. You can't run for shelter.

There's nothing you can't.

Do from orbit media. This is the burden. I'm Steve Fishman and I'm dak Stlan Ross on this episode a reckoning.

People are gonna have to judge by themselves. Why didn't give a ship the pimping? Because they're people and they hate me because they think I'm a corrupt cop, which I'm the farthest thing from. What more could I do than do this podcast with you? You gotta hold old time.

So I was getting ready for this interview and I keep thinking about something.

That happened a few years back.

It's at my bar Nerves, you know, the one I owned on that dead end block in Brooklyn, which happens to me, a block that Luis Scarsella patrolled in some ways. That's where this journey starts for me, and in particular this one afternoon, which I will never forget, Louis stopped by the bar.

My god, wow, mis enabled it. Wow, it brings back memories. And this is where I learned the job. Down the block from here, me and my partner Ronnie locked up a guy with two guns who killed a couple of people. IRVS. Wasn't really Louis kind of place. It's nice. It is your typical yuppie bohemian va. I would imagine the majority of people coming here did not vote for Trump. It's pleasant and I think either you are crazy or got big big guyams bar here. I took Louis outside. All right, look over my shoulder here, what do you think? I see a bunch of probably low level drugs, little dice, se low or something like that. Do you see this here? Could erupt into anything? Anything right here? Anything can happen. This is like atomic energy. You know, anything can happen.

Atomic energy, Yeah, atomic energy. At the time, I chalked this up to a kind of you know, cops view of the world. These guys are bad and these guys they're okay.

Let me tell you something. This hasn't changed much. This is still the same as I remember. This is getting much better. This this little street here, this is a seven one precinct. You know what I'm saying. It's Brooklyn, and anything can happen.

One night, I'm with my family at the dinner table and there's this citizens alert that flashes on the phone, which at first confuses me.

It's the address of my bar. It says shots fired.

Citizen app video shows the crime scene last night on Beekman Place in Prospect Lefforts Gardens.

I get the bartender on the phone, and this is a guy who's usually very laid back, and I say to him, is everything okay? And he says, no, No, Mikey was shot. Mikey's like one of our beloved regular customers. And I'm standing in the living room and I.

Just fell to the crown.

The victim was shot in the neck and pronounced dead at King's County Hospital. The searches on for the suspected gunman, who took off in a grave an.

And actually that's the night I decided to close the bar.

You know, Steve, you wanted to believe Louis was the cop the city needed.

Listen, on that block, it felt like the nineties. It felt like the city was falling apart on that block. I mean, it's like I was living in Louie's crazy world of murder. And after that shooting, that murder at my bar, I knew viscerally how fear and anger can color your outlook. Yeah, I thought maybe it'd be good for a guy nicknamed the Hulk to stop by.

Maybe he'd put some order into things.

And so, yeah, I felt at that moment like I was open to Louis. I was open to entertain the possibility that maybe he was equipped to understand what was really going on in a way that a lot of us weren't. Me included, he'd understood that block at a glance, his instincts had worked. And Yeah, I've taken a journey with Louis in these past few years. They've taken me to another place. I've got a lot more information now.

And it sounds like you've got some things to work through.

Yeah, maybe, And what about you, We've been on this journey together.

My feelings are complicated, and as you known, you've read it, you've talked about it. I've had my share of experiences with the Cops, ones that I don't like to look back on and definitely don't like to think about. And so I enter this project at a point in time when George Floyd was dominating our consciousness, the way we were thinking about the world, about justice, and that all felt really personal to me, and it made me feel like everything about the Cops I already knew I didn't need to know anything more. But time is a tricky way of changing us. There's a lot we need to ask Louie. Then there are a few things I want to tell them.

Time to get Louis back in the studio. That's in a minute. I was thinking, Louis, you remember everything we've been through here, Bonya.

Oh Man, the CrossFit, Jim Vanya looking for Teresa Gomez. I was thinking about that. Yes, jumping in the jumping in the ocean. So he easing us into this thing, and yeah, anything you know his style? I know all your styles. I mean, come on, you don't have to be a genius to know.

Here's the situation is Dax and I sit down with Louis in a Brooklyn studio. By this point, it's been more than a decade since Frenchi's New York Times articles changed the Louis Scarcela narrative and made him notorious, more than a decade since the DA reopened Louis cases. Of the convictions Louis helped secure, over twenty have been vacated. The state and city have paid out more than one hundred million in settlements, and counting.

The last ten years affected me badly and it was a waste, a complete waste of my life where I could have helped other people. And I want to tell you something, I had a lot of good in me. My own pole club in Great Kills would not hire me for ten dollars an hour as a custodian because of the bad press.

Louis is wearing his uniform, a T shirt in this one from Surf City, a restaurant he likes in Coney Island. He's got those tattoos up and down his arms. One is of his father's detective's badge, another of the Wonderwheel at Coney Island.

Louis told us many times that he's escapegoat, that his decades of police work were flawless. So we start with an obvious question. If he was perfect, why is he the focus of so much scorn?

So why you?

I'm going to tell you why me. I was one of the best detectives in Brooklyn. I looked like a detective right out of Central Booking.

So you fit the part.

I fit the part. I was the part.

Louis was the swashbuckling king of the hell. He loved the spotlight. He's the cop who went on Doctor Film, which turned out to be a crucial moment in his life.

I'm going to tell you something. In two thousand and seven, the Doctor Phil Show contacted Brooklyn District Attorney's office. They said, do you have a detective you know who was very good at interviewing people. They gave them my name, and I flew out there on the Doctor Phil Show and I made that statement, Yes, there are no rules, but we act within the law, and that blew up.

Judges cited that sentence as a reason to overturn convictions.

Do you regret saying that on the Doctor Phil Show?

You know what, Some people say that was the worst mistake I ever made. I don't think so, because I.

Told the truth.

You told Doctor Phil a couple things, Okay. One of the things you told him is that a detective has to have a six or seventh sense, has to be able to see into the soul of a person and get him to say what you need to say.

I did say that, and you have to get to the truth, and that's what you do. You told people.

In fact, there were a number of times on the job where everybody said no, and I said yes, And believe it or not. It came back around and I was right, not blowing my own horn.

It's just fact. Yeah, it's true. You know that sounds crazy, it does. You know, it sounds like magic. You see, detectives have the biggest egos in the world, the biggest, and I guess I was one of them.

Louis.

Is just you know, it's like you say something like that, you know, never wrong in reading somebody, never wrong in arrest, and read never wrong in arrest.

How can you never make a mistake? I mean you're perfect. No, no, I'm far from perfect, and I was far from you know, Steve, Steve, let me say this to you. I know my cases. Put yourself here, after everything that was said about you in the last ten years, put yourself here. I in my mind dissected every single case homicide. I humbly say to you, if you could tell me that on this case, Louis, you're wrong, this person didn't do it. This person did it, and his confession to you was wrong. You have to prove that to me. Show me a case where there was DNA, show me where there's someone else who did the crime, and I will be the first one to say I did my job.

Louis says this often he doesn't say anything, just once, but hearing it again, this time it got to me, Louis, nobody needs to prove to you that another person did the crime in order to prove a wrongful conviction.

That's just false.

And anyway, Louis adds, it wasn't really up to him.

I brought every case to the Brooklyn District Attorney's office, Teresa Gomez, all the witnesses, they were vetted, and they all went along with my arrest They all went along with my arrests, and they convicted them.

When you talk about it, it's like, all right, I'm just bringing them fresh meat, uncooked meat, and they're looking at it and saying, should I make lunch or should I throw it in the garbage.

I don't know if you're I don't know what sense you're trying to make. What it is is this? What it is is this. Every detective in Brooklyn gets the case, he believes he has enough to arrest the person, and district attorneys come to the precinct and they interview who's ever there, and they make the decision bring it down. He's under arrest for this. But now you bring all the witnesses down to the District Attorney's office. Sometimes they would say, Louis, no good, you have to do a B and C, And I would go out and do a B and C. Bring it to them. They bring it to the jewelry.

There's a reason you also get called to trial and to call to testify and trials. And that had something to do with the fact that you were convincing, compelling and also very very credible person. And part of what I think that prosecutor knows is that I'm going to have the credibility of Louis Garcela in this trial if I take this to court, correct as Louis Garcela, first grade detective, who's got a huge who's got a reputation, credibility and all these other things. Is I'm a prosecutor who might even be a little bit green. I'm baking a little bit on you. Okay, I'm baking a little bit on you too.

I don't know what to say to you. I don't know how to I guess you agree that Luis Scarcela is a sociopath and got over on the da Jelies. I considered myself a very good detective, I don't know what to say to you.

I'm saying, I want you to just reckon with the notion that you are a compelling and credible figure that a district attorney might put their own faith in and believe that a jury will have some belief in. So you can't only say that I just did my job.

I did my job. I did my job by just bringing the case.

So if you're saying, if you're saying, I put my character, my reputation, and my integrity on the line in these cases while bringing it to the district attorney, yes, yes, yes.

Loui's character, reputation, and integrity were pretty much all that matter in Shabacas Chakor's murder conviction. Louis remember says he took a statement from Schabacca. Sabacca supposedly told him the victims deserve to die.

And remember Sherbacca denies making that statement. He denies making any statement at all. To Detective Scarcella, as you said in court, it only exists because you know, you say it exists. So somebody's going to go in and say, you know, maybe Scarsella ad libbed a bit. Scarcella in no way ad libbed a bit. I would not know how to add lib. I see this problematic that there's no other corroboration for this, don't you. I mean, if you were in my seat, now you put me in your seat. You're in my seat, right. You got one guy saying it, am detective.

I hear what you're saying. You're bringing up something valid.

Why is there no signs statement? Why is there no video? Why is there no witness? You know it seems listen, let me just say it seems fishy. Well, twelve jurors believed it. Yeah, twelve jurors did believe it. But then twelve jurors convicted all of the defendants who have since had their cases overturned.

Back in Louise's heyday, times were frightening. Twelve jurors were ready to believe a lot of things, maybe anything told to them by a district attorney or a much honored detective.

For me, of all the cases we've examined, Derek's is the most egregious.

Twelve jurors should.

Not have found him guilty for the murder of Nathaniel Cash.

No one has attacked Louise's integrity and his credibility with more vigor than Derek. Others who've had their convictions overturn Shabaka Chakor, for example, they're determined to never think about Scarcella again.

Ever.

Derek, on the other hand, thinks about him all the time. He'd like to see Scarcela in jail or dead, he says, the evidence that he wasn't guilty has been available for thirty years, and you know what, He's right, and so we need to ask Louis about this.

I've known for a while that the moment of truth was coming, you know, over the years that I've researched this story, I'd become something like Louis's confidant when some bad news arrived.

I was his first call. Years ago.

I'd promised him I would tell his story. I told him I'd try to see the world through his eyes. Yes he saved lives, Yes he put a lot of bad guys away, and yes he was scapegoaded. But I'd come to a point where Louis's version of himself, the person who could always read people, see into their souls, the person who was never wrong, never did wrong, did nothing but protect the neighborhood. I just felt that version of himself could not stand and with Derek's case, it had come to a head for me. How had he missed the evidence that Derek wasn't guilty. Why journalism is a strange thing. He enter into people's lives, become their confidants, you seem like their friends. In the end, my loyalty is to the story, even when that feels like a betrayal.

I had no evil intent. I was just doing my job.

That's in a minute.

We start by reviewing some of the facts of Derek Hamilton's case.

Derek was convicted of the murder of Nate Cash on the strength of Jule Smith's testimony.

So reading the transcript in your testimony, he's by the sidewalk, pool of his own blood.

There's some shells on him. Oh, he's by the sidewalk. See, I'm going to say he was in the vestibule. Wherever he was he was. There's just too many bodies, but whatever, it.

Was, too many bodies. One of the things about this Jewell Smith is the whole case. There's no murder weapon, no forensic evidence.

I remember going to Jewles's apartment. I remember talking to Jewel. I remember she identifies him via name or nickname or whatever. If I remember, we went into the precinct, We went into the robbery unit, and there were books of dozens and dozens of pictures. She identified him.

Remember, Louis brought Jewel Smith to the DA who took an audio statement. Jewel said she saw Derek take a gun, one gun and shooting it cash in the vestibule of his apartment building. And then she said she saw him run twenty feet to the sidewalk where he collapsed.

You must admit that Juell Smith's statement was compelling. What do you think of jul Smith's statement?

Well, we both listened to it and going over it. I mean the first listen, very compelling, very detailed, you know, lots of things that kind of ring true.

Okay, okay, what was your impression of it? I heard that statement, I said wow.

And you know what was the wow about it?

Oh?

It was she as far as I'm concerned, it was she was there and she was telling the truth.

The Jule Smith statement, as you say, very compelling. When you listen to it, it just doesn't hold up. Okay, doesn't hold up. She says there was one gun they got shot in the vestibule.

There were two guns. I remember, yeah, I remember.

Well.

The thing is this, I did not remember that only reading the paper I remember it. I don't remember that at the time of the murder.

You remember it having learned it after the fact.

I learned it after the fact.

That no blood splatter in the vestibule. By the way, how do you know we read that in the cru report.

Okay, right, yes.

The medical examiner testifies this guy examined the wounds, Fine says he got shot in the heart, he got shot in the ankle. There's no way he runs from the vestibule twenty feet to the sidewalk.

Okay, what's your well, no looks into me.

I have.

I was told that people could get shot in the heart and run.

What'm I'm getting to is there's shells, yes, on the body.

Okay, you testified to that.

And if there's shells on the body, that means that he was shot near where the body fell.

I would have to say that's true.

So you know, Louis, I'm getting to the point where my point is. You know this was an easy case. You're juggling. I don't know how many.

I caught thirty six in one year, So.

You got lots of cases. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't seem like this was the case for you and the most thorough Okay, I I don't.

Excuse me. I'm not going to say I will say okay, I am not going to say anything else. If that's your opinion, that's your opinion. I have a question. Do you think he's innocent of this case? I don't know if he's innocent.

What I do know is that the evidence contradicts the story of Juel Smith, and there was no way he should have been convicted.

Well, if you believe that I have the I have respect for it. I don't. I have I will.

Also having encountered Jewel obviously thirty years after the event. Right, she made it very clear to us she's not there's no love lost between her and Derek Hamilton. But what she was not going to be able to do is live her life in good conscious knowing that she'd help put an innocent man away.

Fine, God, if Derek Hamilton is innocent, may look, but you know the statement she first gave it to you, right right, right right, And there are all these details that don't add up that contradict the statement. So my question is Wasn't it part of your job as a detective to look at this kind of evidence and say, you know, I don't know about Joel doesn't work. I that is such a very good question, and I'm not going to lay it on any body else, but I will say this, it's very possible I thought this was being handled being handled, especially by the District Attorney's office. If I felt secure in the arrest. I felt secure in the arrest. I don't know what to say about the ballistic evidence. If it was a shoddy investigation on my part that put Derek Hamilton away, I will still go to my grave saying and believing in my heart I didn't do anything illegal, moral or unethical. How did those fit together?

I mean, if it's a shoddy investigation, then you didn't give him what his due process. You didn't give him the reasonable doubt.

Steve Fishman read my lips. If I made a mistake in the Derek Hamilton case, I would accept it. I would accept it, and I'm going to say something else to you. I went on to the next homicide. I used to go around with at least six stenopads of homicides that I was going to work I had to prioritize between, which is a terrible thing. People's lives were in my hands. I got to do this on this one today, and this on this one, and then another one comes up. You know what I'm saying.

You can't be as thorough as you want. There's just no way you have to do what you could do. And it was a gusting position to be put in. And yet you had a sleep with the fact that I'm doing the best I could on this And this is what you know what I'm saying. It was the time that this city, God please, we'll never see again.

Maybe Louis was doing the best he could, or maybe he was simply incompetent or even overwhelmed. But you know what, my mind goes back to that crystal ball, the one he said was in his gut, the one he claimed showed him the truth. And the thing about the truth when it's in your gut like that, when you think you're serving something higher, and it's easy to get some things wrong, cut some corners, maybe even lie in an interrogation room where there's no camera or witnesses, because it's in service of something greater. Man, I find myself thinking back to Shabaka's case. Remember, Shabaka refused to give detectives a confession, but then detective Scarcella got him alone in an interrogation room, and Shabaka supposedly succumbs to Scarcella's magic and makes that faithful, incriminating statement. It's really certainly didn't hurt that the people, that is, taxpayers, voters, they all wanted the mess off the street and they didn't want to be bothered with the details. And here's Louis willing to clean it up every time. And when push comes to shove, we all know who the jerk was gonna believe.

After more than ten years in the spotlight, Louis has ideas about conspiracies. Previously told us he believes people were paid off to get Derek's conviction overturned.

Political deals were made and I don't care what anybody says, because he was as guilty as.

Sent But does he have any evidence of any of this?

I I have no evidence of that at this time.

I don't know Dax, but trafficking and conspiracy theories rumors counted his truths.

I find it exasperating.

Louis sure that Derek is cheating that he's paying people off.

But on this day a surprise, Louis sounds like he's ready to put an end to his bad blood with Derek.

I am at a point in my life where why have an animosity? He can't hurt me. Derek would like to hurt you, but in what way?

Oh?

I don't know. That's his mission in life is to you know, get to Louis Carsale. Let me explain something to you. I have no problem talking to Derek Hamblton.

Turned out we've been kicking around that very idea. What if Louis and Derek had a conversation. What would happen? Would it turn into a street fight two enemies, immovable forces?

Or who knows? Maybe it would be revealing.

I'd presented the idea to Derek, and then here we have Louis casually mentioning he'd sit and talk to Derek Hamilton.

I can get him on the phone. Now, would you listen to him?

Well?

Would I get a chance to talk to him? Absolutely? Absolutely? Let me see. Uh, let's see if he maybe he won't even pick up. I really don't. I shouldn't even do this on my lawyer is the but I know what I have to say, yeah, you know, Louis, if you don't want to say, I will speak to him.

Yeah, all right, how you doing Derek Hamilton speaking legal and legal is shruding now not available even message well.

He's not picking up.

Steve leaves the room for a moment to try to get Derek on the line. It's now just Louis and me, probably for the first time. I turn around and I see in the you know, in the you know, behind the glass studio space, there's a kind of frenzy happening, and I know what's going on. I don't know how much Louis has no clue what's going I know what's happening at this point, and I know that in some ways like it, whatever might happen at the moments when Steve returns, I don't know. But I do know that for the first time in three years, I am sitting directly across from him, Louie that is, and it's just the two of us, and I instinctively realize that I have to use this opportunity to engage him because I will not have another one of these, in part because I don't want another one, but the reality being that we will not talk to him again, and so I go in and I knew that I had been holding a lot myself and in some ways just wasn't going to ever have a chance to get these things off my chest. I want to share something with you because I think it's important that I wanted something I've been holding and wanting to share with you. Steve brought me into this project back in twenty twenty, right before George Floyd. I entered this story with very very strong feelings about you without really knowing you, really strong feelings.

And they weren't good feelings.

And they weren't good feelings.

I know, I remember that, and I remember getting that from you right.

And a lot of that had to do with my own experiences with the system, had to do with a lot of things. And what I want to offer is that doing this project and even getting to know you conversation, spending time you've sat and been generous with your time.

I have to say that I've moved.

And what I say that I've moved, it's like I sit across from someone who who I see as a real complex, compassionate human who has deep feeling for his family, for other people's lives, and I feel like it's important for me to tell you that I appreciate the journey that you've gone on on this project.

I don't believe that you were engaged in.

Malicious, harmful acts to harm others, particularly black men. I don't believe that that's what it was. I'm still sitting with the time period in which was all happening, the eighties the early nineties. I'm still sitting with the system in which you operated and the system in which it enabled a number of actors, judges, prosecutors, all sorts of people to act right. I'm still sitting with that stuff. But I just need you to know that I've been on a journey with you, and I really appreciate the journey that you've allowed me to be a part of, to see asked, to see you, to sit across from you, to ask you hard questions, and for you to not duck any of those questions.

So I just want to say thank you for that.

You're welcome. I labored since I seen you last. I labored with you, and when I came down here today and when I saw you, I said wow. And I want to say to you right now, I thank you, Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate that because you're a black man. You're the first black man that was involved in this thing. I'm a white Italian hop from Bensonhurs, from Old Island. You know what I'm saying. I said, wow, I said, what am I going to do with this? And I said, Louis, you deal with it head on and say what you have to say. You have kids, Yes, I do. God, I'm looking forward to going on a weekend Memorial Day with my family, as I have done over the last years. If I framed an innocent man, I framed an innocent man. How could I take my grandson tonight and tell him how much I love him? Coming from my family, from my father, my brother, and my daughter. I could not that. I could not. I couldnot do with that.

Nacuse, it seems like you came around on, Louis. Seems like you liked the guy.

I started in a place of real hardness relative to him. To be putally blunt, I didn't like him, didn't like what he stood for. And what I've come to is a place where I can say I don't see an evil person. Do I see someone who made bad choices, who maybe wasn't very competent at all times and deserves to be held accountable for the things he did. Yes, all of that, but I'm gonna tell you I need to leave this experience and not feel damaged by it. And to hold him in contempt and to be angry at him would be damaging to my own soul and psyche and I'm not having that. And so if it just meant sitting across from him and saying I've moved, and that's what broke him to tears, because it's all I really said. I didn't say you're innocent. I didn't say you're my buddy. I think they've done you wrong. That never came up my mouth. Let's be very clear. I just said I moved. And I think it's a human thing to do, is to tell people, honestly that I something part of me has changed where I don't just see a caricature of cop in front of me, I see human being.

That's all. Tell you. It's weird.

My journey took me in a different direction. I lost my patience with him. I lost my patience with his continual self justifications. He so often repeated that narrative of his flawless business, his blamelessness. I'll go to my grave insisting I did nothing wrong, and I just have to say it doesn't have the ring of truth to me. He wasn't a corrupt cop in it for the money. But he wants to pass because he was, like what one of the good guys, because they were crazy, violent times, because the DA didn't overrule him, because as he told us that very first time, he's a very good person.

I don't think he gets a pass.

He had a lot of power and a lot of those people who went away. I don't know if they were innocent or guilty, but I know that the evidence wasn't there, that the evidence was fudged. In some cases, it was fraudulent, and no one in authority paid attention. Our producer walks into the studio, his laptop open.

Derek is on zoom.

This is ten years in the making.

These guys have never had any extended conversation and they've been living in each other's minds all these years. I'm thinking that there are gonna be fireworks, that Derek is going to leap all over him. Maybe there's gonna be the moment when we get at something when Scarsella has to answer for himself in front of his real accuser.

Here it is.

Hello, Hello, how you doing?

Hello? How you doing?

Can you hear me? Can you see me? Yes?

I can?

So you checked the.

Scar seller first, you know, I want to say that, you know, I appreciate that you give me the opportunity to speak to you. Second of all, that you know, I feel that the Prosecutor's office, you know, played the hell of a role and the majority of the wrong with convictions, and at some point Charles Hines and his crew kind of like threw you under the bus for whatever that reason may be right, And I just want to know what you feel about that, Like, you know, get some insight from you about when you testified. You say that, you know, you brought cases to the Prosecutor's office and it was their decision to prosecute guys like me or not. What does that mean to see them now, you know, putting all the blame or basically reversing cases that relate to you.

First of all, you have to give me ten seconds to absorb this, because I didn't think you were going to come across. As you are coming across, I was definitely thrown on to the bus. It was a terrible thing that was done to me and my family. The press surely didn't help it, and you didn't help it by the things that you said. And I could I understand some of the things you said about me, And I want to say this to you, I don't I really don't know you. I handled the case the best I did.

Ah.

I wish you and your family nothing but peace and health. Maybe at a later time we can sit and discuss this more in depth.

I just want to say, from my perspective and other people perspective, Look, people get it wrong in life every single day, right there. Sometimes, uh, you know, you get information or I get information that may not be accurate, and we act on things on misinformation, right. I mean, it happens to every every human being in this world. Right, nobody's in zen, not even me.

Right.

There's been times when I pass judged me on people that I later went back and said, you know what, I was wrong, Right, I had misinformation. Somebody live to me. Somebody gave me a terrible, terrible information. And I'm not asking you to pinpoint any particular case or whatsoever, but I'm just saying that there's over twenty people who's been exonerated, and to hear you say that you didn't get one wrong. And I know that you're saying that you you know what he did, what they did to your family, but a lot of our families were affected as well, you know, Oh yes, And I just want to say that from a humane point of view, none of us is better than each other.

Right, We're all human beings.

So at some point throughout my life and your life, I just hope that you reflect back on every case and just.

Ask yourself, did you get one wrong?

Is there a possibility that you got one wrong or two long or three wrong? Because the liability the city is panning out every single day, not saying that they not.

You know.

Look, the bottom line is we humans, man, and we make mistakes, you know. And I'm feelings you in a humane way. I'm not coming on here trying to point fingers that you will or throw one that you or I did that already like you might have did it, you know what I mean. And I'm above that, you know. I just hope you take what I'm saying the consideration, you know, and I wish you and your family the best as well.

Derek, I understand what you're saying wholeheartedly, and again I'm taken back by your personality, your honesty, and where you're coming across. And I hear what you are saying. I do hear what you're saying. I was not perfect. There is no perfect man in this world at this point in time. I think what you did was a great thing talking to me. Hopefully in the future we could sit down again and get into it even more if you choose to do so.

To talk about this well, absolutely, you know, thank you for your time, and I'll leave it open for us to talk again in the future.

I definitely will, and thank you for talking to me. All right, all the best to you and your family you as well.

Then the zoom disconnected and Derek was gone, but Louis was still across from us. Now he was hunched over. From what I could tell, he seemed to be staring at a spot on the table in front of him.

I feel really good. I can't explain why one hundred percent he's he. He just blew me away, and I hope I came across as good to him as he came across to me. After what he's been through. And what his family's been through and what I've been through. But he did really say a couple of a number of bad things about me, which is fine, Which is fine. I really I feel good that this happened, and at a point in time, I would love to meet with him. You really care what people think? Why? I guess because I'm a libra, I don't know. I want the people to know the truth.

I think the talk with Derek made Louis feel like there was one less person in the world to hate him. We all know that Louis's life has changed. Who he once was King of the hill, prince of the city. Now he's emiliated regularly in the press, detective disgrace. Even after the cru clears him, the headlines are still calling to corrupt. It's Derek's time now he's the one who celebrated. Maybe Steve Louie didn't win you over, or me for that matter, but it seems like Derek is treating him like a person.

Derek has changed a lot. He's changed a lot in the time we've known him. He's to shout at cameras. Now he's measured to me, seems like a lawyer addressed in a jury. He has points he wants to make. He doesn't have to shout anymore. Frankly, Derek is not the underdog anymore. This moment. It reminded me of something Derek told me once. He said, you feel like you don't have the power, but when you learn you do, it changes everything.

I'm standing here having done thirty years of my life in prison. I'm only fifty seven, so I spent more time in prison than did in society.

Derek Hamilton is at the podium. He's the new deputy director of the Pearl Mutter Center for Legal Justice at Cardozo Law School in New York.

It's a party to celebrate his new job. It's a big event. Funders, lawyers, elected officials. The district attorney is there, no longer fighting against Derek is celebrating him.

And Eric Zalees, who stands here today. I want to thank him as well.

As part of Derek's new job, he's leading a clinic of law students. Derek calls it his.

Army and to those guys in prison, be coming for you.

Derek is blown away by the ceremony. I've never seen him so happy, so light. I grab him for a private moment. Can you believe you're here?

Though?

I mean cod surreal man.

I never, in my wildest dream could imagine that I would be the deputy director of a cause I got a g D. Another been to college the day of my life. I'm self taught, so you know, I never thought in a million years that flying myself in the way that I did would even give me the opportunity to be here. I look forward to doing what I do as hon wouldn't getting people out.

Fuck him with the system, Yeah, very much.

So he's got his work cut out for him. There are thought to be one hundred thousand wrongfully convicted people in prison in these United States.

I'm at.

The Burden is created by Steve Fishman, That's Me.

It's hosted in recorded by Steve Fishman and Dax Devlyn Ross. Story editor is Dan Bobkoff, who also produced this episode. Our senior producer is Simon Rentner. Our producer is Sanam Skelly, Associate producer Austin Smith. Fact checking by Sona Avakian. Our production coordinator is Davon Paradise. Mixing and sound design by Mumbo Media. Our executive producers are Fisher Stevens Evan Williams and me Steve Fishman. Additional production help from Josie Holtzman, Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Ronner, Lucy Sucheck, Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, Priscilla, Alabi Saxon Beard, Katie Simon, and Katie Spranger. We give special thanks to Ellen Horn, Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempe, Tobiah Black, Rachel Morrissey, Lyla Robinson, Mark Smerling and Zack Stewart Pontier.

And deep appreciation to Marcy Wiseman.

Special thanks to our agents Ben Davis and Marissa Hurrowitz, Special thanks to Rhea Julian my wife, and special thanks to my wife Alana Mona Hoop provided our legal advice.

She's from m K S R L LP. And a very.

Special thanks to Evan Williams, one of our executive producers and the person who made this podcast possible. We are honored to feature the song black Lightning from The Bell Rays as our theme music. The Burden is a production of Orbit Media in association with Signal Company Number One.

No matter where you are and your I'm on rest until Monday, I'm black Lightning all across the wild.

Sun a lot the way, I'm.

Black lining, A'm black lining, I'm black lining, I'm black lines.

Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. All episodes will be available early and ad free, along with exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse, our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety nine a month.

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