The Breakfast ClubINTERVIEW: Governor Josh Shapiro Talks Prison Reform In Pennsylvania, Gun Safety, Democratic Messaging + More
Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club morning.
Everybody is the e j en Vy, Jesse, Larry Schelamane the guy. We are the Breakfast Club. We have our sister Angela arrived with us this morning. Yes, indeed, have we got a special guest in the building, Governor Josh Shapiro.
Welcome, Good morning.
How you feeling this morning?
Good morning, good working hard, feeling good.
You're not related to Ben Shapiro, are you?
Hell? No, man? Every so often, you know when he says some crazy thing, we gotta go tweet. Hey, just a reminder, I'm not related.
To Okay, you know, I have a short list of people who I would like to see, you know, run for president one day, and you are on that list.
Is that something you have aspirations of doing? Now?
Look, first off, I appreciate that you take some note of the work we're doing in pencil man like sincerely, it means a lot to me. I'm all in for Joe Biden, and I think this is a moment where we've had some conversations. You've, you know, candidly, you've pushed the party, You've pushed others to maybe think about some things that we hadn't thought about in the past. But we're locked and this is a binary choice between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure Joe Biden gets elected. I hear listen. I hear the conversation, I hear the chatter, I hear the noise. I'm humbled by it, truly, But honestly, I don't wake up at night in the middle of night thinking about it. I wake up in the middle of night thinking about the work I'm doing for Pennsylvania, the work I got to do as governor. And I think if you stop thinking about that, if you stop thinking about your responsibilities, then you don't serve the people at Pennsylvania. Well, and that's my focus.
If we still have a democracy in twenty twenty eight, would you think about it.
Well, we are going to have a democracy twenty eight. We sure are, and listen. I love public service. I was raised in a home where faith and family played a central role. My faith calls me to service. It's the really I think. The work I do every day is to try and help others. There's a teaching in my faith. No one's required to come complete the task, but neither are we free to refrain from it, Meaning each of us has a responsibility get off the sidelines, getting the game, do our part. I love public service, I want to keep doing it, and I want to continue to serve as governor of Pennsylvania.
Before we get into the questions, how did you get here? How did you get into public service? What made you say this is something I want to do. Was it something that was done wrong by your family? What got you to this position? Is said I want to run in this crazy politics game.
You know, Look, I grew up in a comfortable, middle class home. My mom a school teacher. She was a public school teacher in Philly till she had me and my siblings, since she was an educator later in her life. My dad was just like the local pediatrician, the local baby doc, and they were very focused on helping others. And also, as I said before, you know, Charlotte Mane, faith played a really central role in our lives. Every Friday night we were around that Sabbath dinner table, something my wife and I continued to do for our kids today, grounding us in our faith and our faith that teaches us to go out and work for others grow up thinking I wanted to be in politics. I certainly en grow up thinking I was ever going to be governor. But I did grow up thinking I had a responsibility to others. I had work I needed to do for others. My parents instilled that in me in an early age. It wasn't until later in life, actually in college, where I thought it was gonna be a doctor like my dad, and I flunked out of pre med I was on the basketball team there got cut from the basketball team. Both things happened in the exact same day, and I thought my life was over right. And then literally that night, someone knocked on my dorm room door and said, hey, you should run for student government. I'm like, why would I ever want to do that? It was like never on my mind. As I looked back on that pivotal day which set me on this path, I realized the truth is service was always there for me. I just didn't exactly know how I was going to do that service. So that's how it happened for me. You played, well, Hell yeah, I still do, dude, I do have game. Here's the thing you got to understand. I'll talk I'd rather talk coops in politics.
But when I a young T shirt dude, I do have game.
When we put a hoop in at the governor's residence. Actually, when I was younger, I was quick, but the game was slow to me, so I was a good point guard. I could see things happening. Problem now, being fifty years old is the game is still slow to me in my head. Except I'm slow as well now too, so I'm not very good.
But if you get injured now, it's no longer a data to recover now it's like months.
And my wife, every time I go out and play, she'll go, don't get hurt. I'm like, how about, hey, I have a good.
Game score, like, just don't get protect it, And.
Actually I do. I'm sorry, I mean talk everything. I do feel a sense of accomplishment when I get through the game and I don't get hurt. One of the most enjoyable things I do is going to a rec center in Philly without media, without cameras, without anybody, and just going and playing hoops with the kids there and then talking to them and like hearing their struggles, hearing what's on their mind, hearing their frustration you're in, their worry about their safety you're in there. You know, the fact breaks my when some of them, you know, kind of talk about how they feel like nobody's out looking out for Yeah, I think it matters to their governor shows up and actually spends some time with them, listens to them, and you know, frankly learns a lot from you.
Seem like the governor that has the arm brace, the knee brace, the mouthpiece and the headband.
Is that you No, that's not me. That's not me. I don't wear the high socks. I still got kids who keep me reasonably cool, not well cool. It might be an overstander, but I look normal when I get out there, all right.
One of the things that we know shapes public policy often are the things that we see on TV. There's a show that's very popular out of Philadelphia right now, Abbott Elementary. It's the one show I'm going to watch religiously. Yes, And of course Quincy Brenton is creator. You talked about your mother being a public school teacher. How influential has that shows? How has that been for you given your own connection to the public school system. Of course, you had a billion dollar increase in the budget this year to go towards basic education in Pennsylvania.
Yeah. Look, I'm proud of as governor that we fought hard and successfully got done the largest increase in public education in the history of Pennsylvania. And by the way, I did that being the only governor in the entire country with a divided legislature, So I got a Senate led by Republicans, House led by Democrats. Fun fact, there's only two divide legislatures in the whole country. That's the Congress of the United States, they don't get a whole lot done, and the Pennsylvania Legislature. So we fought hard for that. I think what Abbot Elementary means to me or says to me, and I realized it it's sort of different for everybody is it shows the struggles, it shows the inequities, but it also shows the love that these teachers, that these these administrators have for these kids and the love that kids have back. And I think, isn't that the story of so many schools that you know, these kids being able to do well, these teachers being able to do well despite the fact the government hasn't always been there for them in an equitable manner. That's one of the biggest challenges we're facing in Pennsylvania, which is not just the dollars that go to school, which is important, right, and I'm proud of the money we put in, but the distribution formula. And I hate to kind of nerd out on you here, but you got to make sure that the dollars are flowing to the districts that need it most. And that's one of my big priorities this year, is not just increasing budgets, but making sure we're getting it to the schools that need it most, the schools that have been historically underfunded, the schools where kids are really struggling to get by. I mean, I'll give you just a concrete example of this. It's not just the dollars he writ to school, but I got too many kids learning who were learning on empty bellies. I mean, you think about yourself. You can't do this show without breakfast, without your call. Yeah, And so we have big problems that I fought hard and successfully got universal free breakfast for kids. And I had you know, some people say, well, kids should eat at home. Well, you know what, there are some kids who can eat at home, and so we got to be there for them. Same thing with mental health. I know that's a huge issue for you. It's been a big issue for me. I campaigned on it. I talk about every day. We got a new one hundred million it's about to, hopefully god will and grow to a two hundred million dollar fund just to allow schools to hire mental health counselors, have mental health resources online for kids. We got to solve these problems for our kids, and we've got to drive the dollars out in a more equitable way so students have a shot. I believe in making sure Pennsylvania is a place where everybody's you know, got the freedom to chart their own course and the opportunity to succeed. That starts in our classrooms.
How would you grade your current levels of equitable distribution? We're talking about school So if those natural to grade you on this, how would you grade it currently when you look at the schools that are getting the resources they need versus those that aren't.
Yeah, I think we're making progress, but we got a lot more work to do, and quite frankly, I think we get an incomplete grade. And let me explain why our appellate Court in Pennsylvania ruled the year ish ago maybe a year and a half ago. At this point, we have an unconstitutional education system. And in effect, they said, we have an unconstitutional education system because number one, we're not investing enough, and number two, we're not driving the dollars out in an equitable manner. So we're beginning to claw back on the investment. This year, I got to make some progress on how we drive those dollars out. And so I think it's a fair question you're asking. I'd like to be able to come back to you in a year or two or three and answer it with a letter grade based on the progress that we're making. After that court decision, I had.
A question about some of the gun violence. I hear a lot in Pennsylvania. What's being done to make sure we slow that down or even stop that? And I see I see a lot of drug use in Pennsylvania. I mean, I'm seeing all over the country, but I do see a lot in parts of Brooklyn.
I see it.
I see parts of in Philly where it is almost looked like people look like zombies, like they're so strung out. What's being done to make sure we take care of at.
Look, you got this dangerous combination on the streets in Philly and elsewhere. As you said, envy between those who are battling the disease of addiction, and my words are purposeful. Addiction is a disease, not a crime. Correct, those who are battling mental health challenges. And too many damn guns on our streets, including ghost guns, something that I've been working on for many, many years. These are guns literally they come in parts, buy them on the internet, snap it together like you don't have to be very handy to put them together. And you got an un serialized gun that's on the streets, and they tend to end up in the hands of kids. By way a background, Before I was governor, I was Attorney General and listen, I prosecuted gun traffickers. We prosecuted those high level drug dealers on our street corners that were infecting these neighborhoods and our kids with these poisons that were claiming too many lives. I held the pharmaceutical companies accountable. Remember they're the ones that manufactured this drug crisis because they knew this stuff was addictive, and yet they continue to put it out because they put profits before people. We held them account brought billions of dollars back to the States, specifically for treatment. So I've been a prosecute I've done that work, But I also understand if you're actually going to make our community safe, you've got to invest in treatment. You've got to invest in mental health, and one of the things I'm real proud of as governors, you also got to invest in community based efforts to reduce violence. So, yeah, we're hiring more cops and I'm not ashamed to say that, and challenge me on that if you want, but we're also investing. We're also investing hundreds of millions of dollars in violence prevention money, money for community groups, money for church groups, money for the folks that are doing the hard work of ideally with kids, keeping guns out of the hands of kids, showing them a way to resolve their disputes without picking up a gun, understanding that when you pick up that gun in the first place, we've probably failed that child and that generation if we let them think that that's the answer to their problems. So we got a lot of work to do. In my bottom line here is you've got to come at it in a multidisciplinary way. It's law enforcement, it's community groups, it's mental health, it's drug treatment, and it's all of that. We're seeing some progress. Listen, I'm not going to come to your radio show and say we're out of the woods by any stretch, but we are seeing some progress in the data. That said, if you're a mom that lost her kid, let me tell you something. The data doesn't matter no matter how good it's getting. So we got to keep at it. We've got to keep investment. We got to keep doing this hard.
Wow. Why more police officers? Though?
I agree with all of the investmentship making and mental health and you know, fighting drug addiction, But why more police officer Because people will say more police officers don't essentially make screech.
Say, I think police officers need to be properly trained. They need to look like the communities that they are sworn to serve and protect, and we've got to make sure there is order in our communities. You go walk through these communities as I do, and you listen to folks in communities. They want more police now, they want their constitutional rights protected, but they want to make sure that if somebody is reacan have it on their block, that order is stored. And I think you do that by making sure you hire police again properly trained, look like the communities are sworn to protect, hold them accountable if they break the rules. But make sure that you've got you know, order, you've got peace, you got security in a neighborhood. If a neighborhood isn't safe, kids can't learn, If a neighborhood is not safe, families can't thrive, small businesses can't open, small businesses can't do well. So you've got to make sure you create that safety. Safety is not only coming from police, but safety is coming from a multitude of the investments, like I was talking about before.
Then, you know, the thing that's interesting about police officers who look like the community that they're policing, I think is important to understand too. There can be Clarence Thomas's with badges, and that's not always the best interest, you know, of the community. So it's not just never heard it describe that either way. I think that you ultimately have to deal with the fact that looking like the community doesn't mean they're of the community. One of the things that's recently come up with the state legislature that was I think this bill was passed last week it's a bill that prevents any cell phone handling in the car. And the first thing I thought about, We're like, oh no, this is another way that black folks and brown folks will be targeted in Pennsylvania.
So I'm curious to know, Like.
When you know, folks are naturally we're all wired to profile something.
We have our natural stereotypical pieces.
So somebody's you know, driving they got tened windows or loud music, are you looking for them to handle a cell phone? The likely answer for that is yes. So there were a number of members in the Black Caucus who were like, I don't know about this. I think they reluctantly signed on, but what are you going to do in addition to collecting the data that they requested in the bill to ensure that our folks really are protected.
Yeah. Well, actually Black Caucus was at the table, and thankfully they were to make sure that that bill had added protections put in. I'm grateful for their hard work. And by the way, I think it's important to note, I'm going to come back to the crux of your question. You're seeing a real, you know, real excellence in black leadership in Pennsylvania government today. I mean, think about we've got the first black woman Speaker of the House of Representatives. Probably the most important decision I made during my campaign, one of the most important political decisions I ever made, was picking Austin Davis, a thirty something year old blackmail, to serve as lieutenant my lieutenant governor. He's been at the table for some of these, by the way, first black lieutenant governor in the history of Pennsylvania. We've got black leaders, history making mayors in Philly and Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. So my point is we're not only are we seeing more people of color occupy those seats, they're massive contributors to the work product of what is coming forth. And this cell phone bill, back to the crux of your question, this is an example of where they were at the table. There was an opportunity to be heard, There were amendments made, and ultimately it was not only by partisan Remember I got that divided legislature, but I think folks views were heard. Now to the other part of your question, we have to make sure that municipal police, right, those are the police in our neighborhoods and the state police. It's the police under my jurisdiction across the state are trained in a way that they're not looking for an issue. As you kind of said, I think I'm paraphrasing your question and making sure that they understand this pullover is designed to protect all public safety, including that motorist, and not for any other reasons. And I can tell you as governor, we will use that data to hold officers accountable if they are abusing that power that their representatives have given them.
How do you train somebody's natural biases? Though, because you don't know what's underneath a person. The person could be racist, they could be sexist, they.
Could be home a vote. You don't know. How do you train somebody's biases?
Yeah, I think a big part is adding and we're doing this at the state police level, and I want to see more municipal police departments do this as well. Is Less training on physical fitness, that's important, less training on using your gun that's important, and I'll haul up more training on what you're thinking between your ears when you approach a situation.
You have a thought about a social emotion of learning for police offers.
No big time, big time. I mean, listen, there is a natural way you feel I don't want to put words in mouse, so please you disagree with me if I'm wrong. You feel when you approach a situation, a social situation, and you see people that look different than you, You see people maybe behaving in a way that certainly not criminal or wrong to it, but that might be different than you behave. And so I think studying that, understanding, that training about that that's really really important. Now are we perfect in Pennsylvany. Hell no, we have a lot more work to do. But I think that type of training, that type of approach, just that type of acknowledgment by law enforcement leaders that hey, you know what, when I approach the situation, I might feel a little bit different. So does that lead me to acting different? I think for the vast majority of police officers, no, they don't think they act professionally, act appropriately. But for those that do, we need to make sure that that training is deeper and it's more embedded in the work that they do.
Let me ask you a question.
You know, we talked about guns before, right, and the laws changed in the last five years, Right, very lenient when they come to guns.
Right.
So I'm reading it now and it says Pennsylvania is an open carry state without a permit right, and Pennsylvania does not limit the type of weapon which a person may possess. It could be a handgun, rifle, shotgun.
Or assault weapon.
What are your thoughts.
On the fact that it's been so lenient in the last five years. I mean, at one time you could not own a gun in New York and New Jersey, and now you know, with the right permit, you can carry it anywhere you need to.
Yeah, And to be clear, if you're going to conceal carry, you need a right open permit.
For nonca seeable conceal you need a permit. But it's a lot easier now. Before it was almost impossible.
I think the key here is keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them, criminals, youth, making sure we've got universal background checks. That's something I've been pushing for for some time. Understanding that we can both and this is a big deal. This is something I deal with every day as governor Pennsylvania. We can respect the heritage of those who hunt in our rural communities and our responsible gun owners and appreciate the fact that that mom in North Philly doesn't want to see her kid get shot when he's walking home from school, and you can accomplish both without restricting the rights of either of those individuals and those that they represent. It is really important that we have these honest conversations. Now again, I got this divided legislature right, so it's real hard to get stuff like this done. But we've been having more and more honest conversations about that. I go in these rural communities, I talk to these you know, mostly Republican leaning Pennsylvanians, and I say them, I'm not here to take away your gun rights, but we can all agree these guns shouldn't be in the hands of kids, these guns shouldn't be in the hands of criminals. You know, they agree, And so what I'm trying to do is bring about some more common sense when it comes to our gun laws in Pennsylvania. I think it's a model for where we need to go in this country.
There are a lot of things that you've done that I like.
Man, you know, I want to touch on a few of the probation reform yeah with Meek mil the clean Slate three point zero, Can you talk to those and the criminal justice from can you talk to.
It's been a big priorty mind. You know, you might think it's sort of strange. Hey, way, a guy who is a prosecutor is also now leading an effort on criminal justice reform and second chances. Look, I believe I think I said this before, Giangela. I think Pennsylvania needs to be a place. I think America needs to be a place where everybody's got the freedom to chart their own course. The opportunity to succeed starts in our classrooms. It goes through our small businesses. For some, it goes through a union trade hall. For others, it goes to the military. We got to create economic opportunity for people, but for those that we fail, for those who didn't get a chance, for those who get caught up in the criminal justice system. We also have to have a heart that believes in second chances. And I do the legislation historical legislation that I worked on with Meek, that I worked on with others in the legislature who did incredible work on this, folks like Jordan Harris, Joanna McClinton, Tony Williams, and others. It says what our values are in Pennsylvania that we're forgiving, that we believe in second chances, that we want to make sure you can get back up on your feet and get a shot to start your small business, go on your kids, you know, school, you know trip, whatever it may be. And I couldn't have been more proud and frankly more emotional to sign those bills into laws. So now we wipe out that's the clean slave part, wipe out part of or some of your prior offenses to give you a chance to get back up on your feet. We basically cap the amount of time you can be on probation. Look, Meek brought attention to this by virtue of the fact that he was having technical violations that were landing him back in prison. People literally aren't breaking the law, they are not committing another crime, and then they were being sent back to jail because of these technical violations. That's crazy.
He was trying to school.
Yes, so that is now that has now been addressed. We've got these what I'd call sort of a soft cap, an opportunity for those not to end up behind bars, not to end up not being able to provide for your family. This really really meaningful stuff. And by the way, Meek deserves a lot of credit here, and I've become really good friends over a number of years. We've had a lot of raw and honest conversations. And if he wasn't willing to put himself out there and share of himself and be vulnerable, which is not something any of us like to do, and certainly he didn't like to do. But as a result of him being out there, he's helping a whole lot of people whose names are not Meek Mill, who aren't famous, who don't have, you know, audiences necessarily with the governor, with other elected officials, And I think Pennsylvania is a more just place because of his contributions and the hard work of many of us.
You talked about being all in for Joe Biden, and of course, last week there was some groundbreaking news, historical news that came out with our former president having thirty four criminal indictments. A lot of folks have been talking about the need for Joe Biden to pardon Donald Trump if that were to come up with the federal cases. What is your posture on that, given the fact that you are responsible for balancing a divided state legislature.
Yeah, Well, first off, just I'll be a legal nerd here for a second. I'm sorry, sorry to do that, but he was convicted in a state court, so any pardon Joe Biden could give wouldn't matter because federal charges, right, that'd be a federal charge, and who knows if they're ever going to come to fruition prior to the election. Here's what I think we need to remember, you know, for his challenges, our system can be sometimes. This was a case that was decided by twelve ordinary Americans. Twelve of Donald Trump's fellow Americans heard all this evidence, they considered the law as presented to them, they made sure that they were diligent in their deliberations, and they found unanimously thirty four times that he broke the law. And I think, you know, whatever your politics are, with you like Donald Trump, don't like Donald Trump, we have to respect the process. I've seen the process up close again as Attorney General, for all of its flaws. Jury's work and jury's need to be respected in our system, and so I think the jury should have Obviously, he's got to write to appeal, He'll have his appeals, He'll be heard by other courts. But I think the work of jury's needs to be respected.
Here, it sounds like that's a no.
So I'm a pivot and say you've talked about again being all in for Joe Biden. One of the things that I think Lenard brings up often that is important is there's a lot of attention placed on what we don't like about Donald Trump, that he's a threat to dem all the things that are said. What are the things that make you all in for Joe Biden.
Yeah. Look, I think there's a clear contrast, and there's a lot of reasons to be against Donald Trump. But I really think, and this is why I've always run, you got to provide people with an affirmative view on both what you've accomplished and where you want to take them.
Yeah.
Right, And so I think if you look at the body of work that Joe Biden has done, and I see this as governor, I mean there's a lot I'm doing as governor as a result of the help Joe Biden's given. I think there's no question in this election Joe Biden is better for Pennsylvania, and I would say better for Americans. I mean, look from infrastructure, y'all saw when I ninety five collapsed and we got that reopened in twelve days after they said it was going to take months. Joe Biden paid for that. He was on the phone with me over and over and over again making sure the full force of the federal government was there. That's a big infrastructure project that we all saw. Here's one you probably haven't seen. There's a tiny town called Esplin just outside in the Pittsburgh a thousand or so people, predominantly African American community. They've been drinking water out of their lines filled with lead for generations. Joe Biden gave a damn about changing out our pipes in that community. And now that mom can turn on the tap and not worry, there are kids getting poisoned with lead. That's not a sexy thing, that's not something that's you know, y'all are probably talking about on the show. But like that's meaningful. So when we talk about infrastructure, all the stuff Joe Biden's done on infrastructure, that's a concrete example of something that is helping people live healthier lives in a community that's oftentimes been ignored or forgotten. And yet you can look at all the indicators right, particularly when it comes to opportunity in the opportunity economy, we are seeing unemployment at historically low rates, We're seeing small business startups on fire, We're seeing real opportunity come all across Pennsylvania. I realize that those stats sort of don't vote, and I realized times it's hard to feel those stats, and it's incumbent upon the President and me and others to kind of turn those stats into real world accomplishments. And that's certainly something that I plan to do and something I know the Biden campaign will continue to do.
So why don't they lean on, you know, and I've said this before, on more people like you to deliver this messaging because their messaging sucks. And like, I'm not even in Pennsylvania, but I know a lot of the great things that you've done, so clearly your messaging is getting out there.
Why is their messaging so bad?
I think we live in a really tough media ecosystem where you got to be on every platform, talking every every different way, whether it's a newspaper, whether it's on the breakfast club, you name it, and I think it's incumbent upon them to make sure that message is getting shared by more people. Than just the president and vice president. She's a hell of a gifted, you know, communicator, But they got to rely on others, whether you know it's me or We got some amazing governors right well, think Wes Moore, Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Andy, but Sheerman. We got incredible governors doing really really good work rely on us, and certainly we're going to continue to talk about that on every medium we can.
You think the Trump conviction is going to cause political retaliation in the courts, like even jury's selection beginning of the day and the Hunter and Biden try.
Do you think that it would be a tit for tat type thing?
I want to say no, because I believe in the system. And no, no, I'm not trying to bullshit you. I mean, like, I really believe in this system.
Do you believe in that that other party, well, the MAGA version of that party.
It is my hope that judges, juries, prosecutors, defense attorneys will ultimately do the right thing, which is just simply file the facts, file the evidence, and render a fair judgment. What scares me about Donald Trump is the way he wants to weaponize our justice system and use it against his enemy. They've said it the way he says literally, he wants to be a dictator. Let me ask you, you don't have to be a great student of history, No, I mean, think about all the dictators that have lived throughout history. You know how many minority groups do well under a dictator. Not many, right, minorities get screwed when there are dictators. And Donald Trump has promised to be a dictator. This guy's extremist. He is dangerous. He is someone who is out there to exact revenge. We don't do well when that happens. And so I think, while I believe in the system, and that's why I kind of pause when you ask that. Not that I was trying to bide your question, but I want to believe in the system, but I'm scared to death if he's in charge of the system and the way he might try and use it to exact revenge. Well, you sued Donald Trump before, right many times.
Twenty seventeen was the biggest one.
Every time. Listen, when I was a train of general, I sued him over the Muslim band. I sued him over so many different things, and one nearly every time. And then during the twenty twenty election, he and his cronies sued us forty three times in Pennsylvania, first to stop certain people from being able to vote. Let's be honest, they weren't trying to stop people who look like me from being able to vote. And then after those votes were counted, they sued to stop those votes from being After those votes were cast, pardon me, they sued to stop those votes from being counted forty three times. Let me tell you.
Something that's a lot of tat.
Yeah, I went forty three and oh, and he went oh and forty three. The rule of law held. And that's I think why I kind of I kind of pause when you asked that question, Because this system has held. I just think now he's a greater danger. I mean, he is a clear and present danger. But it's also different are the number of judges he's put on courts that can affect the outcome of these cases. Whereas in the past, the rule of law held, but you had judges who were willing to do the right thing, Republican and Democrat. Now this is a different breed of judges that are out there. And I'm afraid that he's you know, he's the impact is you know that he can have to infect our justice system is really dangerous for everybody.
The federal case in Miami is a perfect example of this.
You know this this case is now just suspended in thin air indefinitely because it's a Trump appointee. But you talked about this system holding and I think it's so important. I think again, going back to something Leonard says that I get mad at, but I think he's right. You have to be able to Sorry, Yes, that's what his mom and name.
By the way, I saw y'all on CNN maybe a month or two ago, and when she called you Leonard like that, she kind of gave you the side eye. At the same time you, I saw you sort of lean back. Yeah.
But the system, and so I think for people of color in particular, you said we don't do well under dictatorships. There's not a whole lot of systems, even when we help to build them, that we do well under.
Not This is not a Trump endorsement.
Let me be very clear, because people are slow sometimes That's not what I'm saying. But we have to be able to say where the holes are, where our blind spots are, and talk about the dangers of Donald Trump. We have to be able to say that right now. We are working on justice reform because there are problems. Juries don't always get it right, prosecutors don't always get it right, public defenders don't always get it right. And so where do you find the balance in critiquing the system that you so believe in right and saying this is an absolute no.
But let me tell you where we can improve.
Okay, let me give you a concrete example, so it's not just theoretical.
Also the forty three times you need to say that more. I don't think a lot. I didn't know that, and I think a.
Lot of it.
Right, It's that's powerful.
Especially name it because I'm not trying to give you political strategy on their which is strategy. But the Fulton County case, it goes right hand in hand with what happened in Fulton County.
So you should use that. Tell the you know, the bis say.
Black, don't say people that don't look like me say black and crown.
Yeah exactly, Okay, I need to go right, people don't look like it. Now, that's fair, that's you understood my point. But I'll be crisper in my words. I do believe in the system, but I also know the system is flowed. Let me give you a concrete example, and I saw this up close and personal. I realize you're trying to you're giving examples where you might have a lawyer, a judge, whatever with a bias, and that certainly happens. But what I routinely saw where there was a breakdown, where there was an injustice done, is where someone didn't have access to legal counsel, where a defendant was showing up in court basically with one arm tied behind their back because they have a good lawyer. And when you look at poor defendants or indigent defendants, the problem in Pennsylvania is even worse. We were one of only two states in the whole country when I took office that did not provide funding for indigen defense public defenders. I campaigned on the idea of changing that, and in my first year as governor, again divided legislature, we brought Republicans and Democrats to to get this done. We lost that distinct and now we fund our public defenders because my view is if you got a fair fight right, then that's a big part of making sure that the system works. Still got to deal with bias. You still got to deal with personalities things like that, but you got to at least start with that fair fight. And now we are beginning to have that in Pennsylvania by virtue of the funding for indigen defense. That's a concrete example, and that also says to someone maybe who has never been involved in this system, Hey, I can have a little bit more faith in this process. I can have a little bit more faith in how the system's work. And I'm proud of that. I want people to look at government as a positive, progressive force for good in their lives. And no matter whether you look like me or a white guy or black eye, you look at it and say, hey, you know, I'm gonna get a fair shot. And I know that there are too many people right now that don't feel that way, and so every day I'm trying to chip away and make it just a little bit better. So work in progress.
Another thing that you do that I love.
You know, in regard to message and you have the community text number, Yeah, well, people who have questions in commons, do you read all those texts?
I read a lot of them. I'd be lying if I told you I read them all and I get sort of my team give me a you know, a sampling and by the way, good ones, bad ones, ones with questions, one where someone got help, one where someone didn't get help. Uh, and we're constantly working to change. Look, I think in government there should be no wrong door to reach your elected representaves, your governor, your mayor, your representive, you name it. We shouldn't have to force the public to bend toward the way we do it. We need to bend toward that. And so if they want to text me, great, I'm going to listen. It's another reason why I don't just stand up at you know, the press conference in front of the podium with the CEO, the whole thing. I do some of that, but I also will go on TikTok or Instagram and do a live with someone about the very topic that I'm fighting for and reach people where they are. And that's Look, I'm not here blow smoke, but like, that's one of the reasons why I think you all have been so successful. You're reaching people where they are. You're talking about topics that matter to them, not that you're not forcing them to, you know, sort of bend to what on your mind. You're in touch with where the community is. And I think whether it's on the radio, whether it's on TikTok, whether it's in the newspaper, you got to meet people where they are. And that's what I'm focused on doing every day.
That's why I think it's so important.
What about critique in the party, Like at a Democrat, what do you think they're getting wrong right now?
In this moment.
I think Democrats gave up on rural communities across America, certainly across Pennsylvania, got too damn elite and started erecting artificial barriers to entry. And I'm trying to rip away those artificial barriers to entry and show up in these communities. Let me give you a couple concrete points. My first day in office, literally my first full day, I signed an executive order doing away with the college degree requirement for state jobs in government. Ninety two percent of our state jobs. That's sixty seven thousand jobs that now you wouldn't need a college degree for. And by the way, in the years since I've done that, sixty percent of our new hires don't have a college degree. Why do I bring that up? There was an artificial barrier to entry. It was shutting people out for no damn good reason. Sure, you know, if you're gonna be a lawyer, we want you to have a law degree. If you're gonna be a doctor work in the state, we want you to have a medical degree. But beyond that, like you shouldn't have these artificial barriers. And I think what our party has done too much over the last generation is we've erected these barriers and said to certain people, we don't want you in the conversation. So I'm trying to do away with that. We've also said to certain communities, we're not only not showing up, we don't give a damn about you. Let me tell you something. I show up in these royal communities, I talk to folks, I listen, I deliver for them, and the election results show that they're, you know, happy with the work I'm doing. But I think what it also has shown me, and I'm always learning as an elected official, is actually, you go to one of these conservative royal communities, or you go to one of these more whatever progressive urban communities, everybody basically wants the same thing. It's four things. They want a good school for their kids, right. They want safe communities, they want ecno I'm an opportunity. They don't want anybody fucking with their freedom, you know. They want you to protect their freedoms. And we have too many people right now losing freedoms, losing opportunity, and instead, I think I'm trying to bring people together, Republican and Democrat alike, to focus on those four things. And we're making progress so that I can give a speech in Philly, and I can give a speech in rural of Venango County. I can go and have a picnic in a rural community last week and go to the roots picnic this weekend and say the same thing to everybody. And I think that level of consistency we have not always shown in a party, that way of showing up, that way of erecting artificial barriers to stop entry. That's been a problem for our party, and we're trying to change that in Pennsylvania.
So I have a Democrat. What do you think Republicans are getting right?
Right? I think it's a hard question because I think think you have to separate out kind of that Trump wing of the party from you know, sort of the common sense Republicans. Many of whom I deal with in Pennsylvania, uh, every day. I think they understand effectively the importance of creating economic opportunity and communities that have been left behind. I think they understand. I think I understand this as well. But you asked me about their party. They understand that oftentimes providing capital addresses an issue way better than some big program that takes a long time to set up and then ultimately doesn't work. I think those are some areas where you know, I respect the work that you know some Republicans in Pennsylvania are doing right now.
We appreciate you for joining us. Oh, I got I got a couple of questions.
Shake your head.
I don't know. Oh, now, just listen it.
So that said, why do you think why do you think MAGA supporters? Well, back to what you said, So, why don't more Republicans that are I guess of sound mind. How come more of them aren't standing up against MAGA? Why are you just letting a succumb to MAGA.
Yeah, I mean, first off, I understand why you're using that term. I don't use that term MAGA. I think in many ways it's actually disrespectful to the voters. Who believe in in that stuff, but we'll agree to kind of disagree on that it is.
But it is a difference between traditional conservative yeah values and what we're seeing.
Now one hundred percent. What I don't understand is just look at the sort of election data, and again I keep coming back to Pennsylvania because it's what I know best. Donald Trump wins Pennsylvania by forty four thousand votes in twenty sixteen. Since that time, Donald Trump has lost Pennsylvania in twenty twenty, and every single one of Trump's offspring, including the guy I beat for governor, right, they've all lost every election. And in addition that they've lost branches of government at the federal level. They've lost ground in Pennsylvania, they've lost in other you know, swing states. I don't get why they keep following this guy and following the approach he brings, following his extremism, because like, even if you believe it, I think most of them don't believe it because they're frankly, they're just weak cowards that are afraid, and so they just sort of go along with him. But it's also just not a winning formula if you look at who's winning, you know, it's me, it's Gretchen Whitler, it's Wes Moore, it's Andy Basheer, it's Gavin it's people that are doing common sense things in these states. And go look at the swing states Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, Georgia. I mean, you're seeing Democrats win there on common sense messages and you're seeing the extremist Donald Trump clones losing there. So why they keep following this guy? I just don't know. It doesn't make any sense.
So so on a national level, what does it say about the Democratic Party that you've got MAGA supporters who are still passionate about Trump and they don't care if he's been convicted, they don't care if if he says racist things, actually don't care about none of that. What does it say about the alternative that they're still willing to support that.
I mean, I think maybe it says a lot about how we nominate people in our system today. It says a lot about how frankly many of the Republican leaders nationally are just profoundly empathetically weak people that they can't stand up to this guy. And you know, I think they're gonna have a real reckoning. If Joe Biden wins, as I expect him to win this November, they will have suffered defeat after defeat after defeat with Donald Trump, Like he's not a winner, nor is his brand a winner, And so how they sort of course correct after that? I don't know. You're kind of asking me to sort of understand or predict the future, and I just can't. I just know that, Like, I'm a very common sense, logical oriented guy, and I just don't know why they keep following him when he keeps the delivering L after L.
Have you talked about Wes Moore? I think you all both brought up Wes Moore.
We have one black governor in the country right now, We've never had a black woman governor. We have one appointed black woman in the Senate. But have you talk about the party's obligation, Like what do you think the party's obligation is to ensure a or more multicultural candidate base and bench, Like we don't have an up and coming Barack Obama right now, maybe except for Wes Moore. What is the obligation of the party to ensure that We talked about police officers looking like the community that it reflects its base.
Yeah, exactly what I'm trying to do in Pennsylvania. Make sure. Look, I realize I have worked my ass off to get where I am, and I was typically not the chosen person by the party or whatever. I've worked hard to get where I am, and I understand now I've got a responsibility to the next generation of political leaders to elevate people who don't look like me, to give them a chance to lead. And that's again I mentioned Austin Davis are incredible lieutenant governor thirty something. That's the only thing I hate about him, he's still in his thirties. But Austin is our first black lieutenant governor. This guy's poised to do incredible things if he wants to go beyond being lieutenant governor. Nearly, you know, not every, but many of our leadership positions in our Pennsylvania legislature are led by incredibly talented African American leaders, male and female. So I think my responsibility is to create that bench, to fund those campaigns, to fund those efforts to help them be elevated. And I want to be clear, I'm not taking credit for their you know, for their successes, but I like to think that I'm helping and supporting them along the way. I think if you build the bench there state after state after state, then what you're going to see is a real change in our politics going forward.
I got three more questions if that's it, because this is some important stuff. The ten years Try plan that you have on aging that designed to improve services for older people in Pennsylvania. Yeah, why is that so important? Because you see always seems like people just forget about the old.
They really Yeah, first off, we've never had that in Pennsylvania for it, and just look at some basic math. Right, one out of every four Pennsylvanians today is a senior. By twenty thirty, not that far away. Want to have every three Pennsylvanians is going to be a senior. So, by the way, that creates a whole lot of workforce challenges, which we talk about it if you want, But it also means I want seniors to be able to age with dignity. I want to treat seniors with respect. Most of them want to stay in their homes if they can. We've got a healthcare system where we're paying a lot for it, but a lot of times those dots don't get connected and they don't get the help in the services that they need. They got ride share programs to be able to get to doctors' offices, get to the supermarket, get to their senior center, whatever, except those ride share programs always don't always sync together with the needs of seniors. That plan pulls it all together, and it says to seniors in Pennsylvania, We're not only going to fund these things, We're going to make sure that the money actually makes its way to you. We're going to treat you with dignity and respect. Listen. One of the things that seniors are struggling with, all Americans are struggling with today is rising costs. Right, everybody, everybody listening to this show deals in some way with rising costs. I think you were posting about Big Max or something.
McDonald's right.
Nah, Yeah, and everybody's dealing with it, but I think seniors on fixed incomes it kind of hits them even harder.
It's proby.
One of the first things I did was cut taxes for seniors as governor of Pennsylvania. By the way, we also cut taxes for families as well. With childcare expenses. We're trying to put money back in people's pockets. So this Senior Plan is both coordinating services and putting money back in people's pockets and saying to our seniors, we value you and we're gonna treat you with respect, and we're going to allow you to live your golden years with dignity.
And the seven million dollars that y'all are putting into Pennsylvania's main.
Streets in communities, it's seven million, right.
It's a little more in that, but okay, listen, you want to look at the vitality of a community, strength of a community, Go walk down their main street. Doesn't you got to fill you walk down to main street. Sure, there's tall buildings, it looks different, there's a lot more people, but there's a main street there, and there's a main street. And those rural communities too. Maybe it's a lower, single story, you know building, what have you. But if those small businesses, you're doing well. If people see their main street as safe, if people see their main street as a place where they can actually have economic opportunity, the broader community is safe. For the bader community has more freedom, the broader community has more opportunities. So I believe in main streets and that's why we're investing so much there. We've also created a new fund. This is done. This isn't like pieing the sky for not just main streets. But we know a number of small business owners in our communities, particularly on those main streets, are minorities, and so we have seen too many minority small businesses not have access to capital and thus not be able to be as successful as we'd like them to be. So we create the first ever fund for historically this advantage businesses. So if they want to use it for capital, they want to use it for repairs, for whatever, a facade, they want to buy a piece of equipment that allows them to make more product, you know whatever, we now have funds.
For both, and that's that money's going to black communities.
Right. And then finally when it comes to these small businesses, remember pennsylvan not remember I should say Pennsylvania is the number one purchaser of goods and services in our state, meaning the state government is. And if you look at our history of procurement, about four percent of all of our contracts went to black owned businesses and these small diverse businesses, and so we're changing that I signed executive order to increase that amount. So we're coming at this in a number of different ways. We're putting capital in these businesses, and we're making it easier for them to get business with the state. You get a big state contract, all of a sudden, your twenty person small business is thirty people, it's forty people. You're hiring people, You're creating opport change for accumulation of generational wealth. You're transforming these communities with the power of the commonwealth. So I want to be clear, We're not just like writing checks. We're putting capital out there, and we have an organized approach to making sure we are lifting up these businesses, lifting up these main streets that have been ignored for too long.
One question, you know with U, I guess every state dealing with the migrant problem. What is Pennsylvania doing for that situation? You know, a couple of I think a day ago to NYPD offices was shot by a migrant. They said he was They tried to put them on the school that he was an illegal migrant. They said he came over through the quote unquote Eagle Pass, had a gun. He's been arrested before, but he shot two offices. So a lot of these states having problems with migrants. What is Pennsylvania doing.
They're building a wall.
We're building a wall in Pennsylvania.
And I just said that.
As an idiot.
Gotta have a serious commence trying to keep.
Might not. I mean, we don't like Knicks fans, but still we're not building a wall to keep you all out. Listen, we you know, we've we've gotten bustleads of migrants that Greg Abbott, you know, has has sent up to us. We've got a really wonderful network of you know, volunteer organizations, church organizations, others funded and able to provide supports for the individuals that end up in Philly. Candidly, we have not seen the numbers that New York has seen. We've not seen the numbers that Chicago or some other jurisdictions have seen. I think this immigration issue is a failure by both parties. You want to go back to kind of your broad thesis on all this four years through Democratic presidence, Republican presidents, Democratic congresses, Republican congresses, they've ignored what is a constitutional obligation to deal with immigration. And this to me is pretty basic and this is where we've got to stop focusing on extremes and start focusing on common sense. Yes, we should have a secure border. There should be whether it's a wall, whether it's technology, whatever, we should have a secure border. Number one. Number two, we've got to have a responsible pathway to citizenship for those who are here. We've got to make sure that the dreamers are cared for responsibly. And third, we've got to have honest rules of the road going forward to say, if you want to come to this country, great, we are a welcoming country. We are a loving country. We are a nation of immigrants that has strengthened our society. But here's the rules you got to follow, and here's the process you got to go through. And the fact that Congress hasn't been able to do that. They were a little bit closer a few whatever it was a couple months ago until Donald Trump threw a monkey wrench into it and told Republicans who supported the bill to do a lot of that, Hey, you got to be against it because I need this issue against your Biben goes back to the issue I said before. These are profoundly weak people who continue to put Donald Trump before country. But immigration is an area where we just got to employee some common sense. That's what the American people want. Is one of those things where the average American looks at this and they see the answers right before them. Yet the Congress hasn't been able to come together in a bipartisan way and sort it out, and Donald Trump has made that a lot harder. My last question, you'd be very generous way you said my last question, No, I agree, I did two.
This is happening right here in question the report that say nobody flies private in Pennsylvania more than you, Mike Rubin and Meek mil So, what do you say to people who say the flights are coming out of the taxpaanfuck.
We have a state plan. We've had a state plane for I don't thirty forty years. I can go back and check, and I get around Pennsylvania all the time. I get around meeting people where they are, I show up, I work my ass off as their governor. I kind of have this informal rule in my own head. I don't want to be in the office more than three days a week, which means I got four days to be out in the community. Somewhere, listening, learning, showing up, and to be governor and show up in Eerie and Philly in the same day. It's impossible by cars. I'm using the plane in that other governors have used as well. And you know what, I'm showing up matters, and I think too often times our politicians hide and don't show up. I want to be there with people. And by the way, Mike flies on a hell of a much nicer place.
Final pitch to folks from November, that wasn't a question.
Here's what I say. My last, last, last, extra last, my extra last. Listen. There are going to be two names on this ballot, and maybe a few other randos on there as well. This is a binary choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. But in many ways, I think this election is not about Joe Biden and Donald Trump. It's about all of us and what kind of country we want to keep building for ourselves. If you go back and look at the arc of our country, we have always made progress. Now, there have been chapters in our America story where we've taken two steps forward and then we've taken a step back. And I think for a lot of people it feels like we're in one of those step back moments right now. But if you look at the progress we've made in this country, it hasn't always been made by people who occupy the White House, or governors or people with titles. It's ordinary Americans rising up, demanding more, seeking justice, seeking something a little bit better for their kids than the way they had it. And so when people go vote this November, I urge them not just to look at the binary choice of candidates, but think about the kind of country we want to build. Do we want it to be decent and honorable, where we expand freedom, where we don't contract it. Do we want it to be a place where, no matter what you look like, where you come from, who you love, who you pray to, you feel like you have a shot here. Maybe there's not absolute perfect equity and equality, but you feel like you got a shot where the system, as we've been talking about, is a little fairer, whether it's in our schools or in our criminal justice system. I think this election in many ways is a reflection on each of us in the kind of country we want to build. Now, Listen, I think if you want to build that kind of country, there's only one choice in this election, and that's Joe Biden, a guy who's focused on expanding freedoms, a guy who's decent, a guy who's honorable. I think the other choice is a dramatic reversal. I said before, two steps forward, maybe one step back at times in our in our arca history. I fear if Donald Trump is giving the keys to the White House again, it's not maybe one step back, it's multiple steps back, and it's going to take us a generation to recover from that. And so I think when you go to the polls this year, yeah, of course I'm voting for Joe Biden. I'm endorsing Joe Biden. I hope you vote for Joe Biden. But I hope you think about yourself, and I hope you think about the arc of history and the way that it has gone and your responsibility to continue the progress in this nation.
All right, do you have it, Governor Joshpaperrol.
Governor Josh Ferrol, thank you for joining us.
Govern Pennsylvania for future president.
All right, great to be with you guys at the Breakfast Club. Good morning, wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club
