The Book of Joe with Joe Maddon and Tom VerducciThe Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon asks 'Who had the Rangers-Diamonbacks in the World Series?' Looking at how these teams got here starts with a look at what happened to the Phillies and the Astros. Joe loved the confidence from Arizona and their fundamental play. Tom points out the changes needed by the Astros. Moving onto the World Series, we preview the matchup and predict the champion!
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The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio Welcome Back. It's the latest episode of the Book of Joe podcast, and it is World Series time. Joe Madden, we don't have our picks. I think we both had the Phillies going all the way. We've got the Arizona Diamondbacks and Texas Rangers. I find me somebody who picked this world series forget about before the year started, even three weeks ago. How about this one?
Read just started thinking completely, But as you're watching it obviously becomes believable. I mean the way the Diamondbacks Sas shade back into Citizens Bank Park and win two games and actually looked confident in doing it. That was really the part that impressed me. They look okay the moment it started. They're young players, absolutely ready for this situation. And on the other side, Texas again being down by two and then again the weirdness about the Astros in their home ballpark, they come back and they win two. More So, I think it's going to be a really kind of an evenly match series. It's going to be interesting to watch the whole thing, obviously, but both teams deserve it. I'm happy for both sides. I think it's great.
Yeah, we are definitely going to get into breaking down the matchup Texas and Arizona, and there's some managerial news that we want to talk about as well. But first, let's say goodbye to the couple of teams who left here, Philadelphia and Houston. Joe, it's kind of amazing to think that Philadelphia goes home with a three games and two lead in that ballpark where they've had so much success and they can't win a game against Arizona and their home. When I looked at the final game there at least, and maybe it's true throughout some of their losses, they just didn't move the baseball. They didn't move runners on base, and Arizona did a tremendous job, I mean a tremendous job of ABC Baseball getting guys over, getting them in. Their speed definitely showed up. There's no quick about that. I thought. I thought the biggest pitch of the game, Joe, Kyle Schwarber leads off. I forget what inning it was with a double. Philadelphia is down to They're getting the crowd back in the game because the stick of the order is coming up. He's on second base, nobody out, and Trade Turner comes up at bet. He tries to bunt. First pitch, really good idea. You know his job right there is get that guy over, no matter what you have to do. Fouled it off. It wasn't a terrible bunt, didn't look really that comfortable, but fouled it off off the first base line. Next pitch, Joe Maddapli throws the perfect pitch to get a rollover ground ball, which is a slow breaking curveball, and Tredye Turner rolls over, grounds out the third and Schwarber stays at second. It's just a complete empty out at a time you couldn't have an empty at bat. And then two fly balls later, Schwarber is still on second base. Inning's over, and I watched Arizona just put buns down. Cormick Carrol, Oh my goodness, what a ballplayer. He has that huge sack fly at Alvarado with two strikes, just battle battle to get them in scoring from second on a bullet base it with two outs to the right field. Harper made a terrific play cutting that ball off. Because you can't throw out Corbyn Carroll at the plate. I don't care how our balls hit or how small ry field is. So to me, Joe, that showed up in that game where Arizona just they're a tremendous base running team. They dropped the sacrifice, but I think it was Perdomo who got it down. They sole a base, everything that moving up ninety feet. They they did that when they needed to at Philadelphia didn't.
Yeah, you're talking about fundamental baseball, offensively speaking, and that's something has to be nurtured. You saw the I saw a lot of the indications there that on the screen where the Phillies home runs were primarily solo shots and a lot of that. You know, you're they're all going up there trying to do that pretty consistently. There's not a consistent team concept about the way they play offense. Now, I'm not here to denigrate that it took them that far, no question, but this time of the year when you do need to manufactor stuff based on the other team's pitching and just the fact that you're you just don't pitchers throw home runs. You just don't always get the pitch you need or want in order to hit a home run. They're just not present. So you just don't hit homers. I want pitchers really make good pitches, so the way the Diamondbacks design their team. And I would bet talking about all this. Of course I wasn't there, but I would bet that there are pregames a lot of time during the course of the season included things like bunning, bunning for hits, sacrifice, bunning, moving a runner. You just don't do those things all of a sudden when you get to this time of the year if you have not been either working on them during the year or making it an emphasis durna season. Doctorally do it in the game, because they did it very relatively easily, like they do it all the time. Base running, my goodness, to me, that was always the number one thing to be instructed and encouraged, and every instruction league I ever worked, and every spring training I ever attended, including up to my last one with the Angels. You're just trying to really emphasize base running. Putting out every spring you want to go through this method. Everything you consider important about base running needs to be talking about over and over again annually, because what happens is you go to the back of your mind, you forget certain little things and as a coach. Even as a coach, you need to bring it back to the front of your mind, get it back out there. Tour of the bases, that's what we used to do. We used to do tour of the bases with the Angels back in the day. Instructor would start at home plate, take you to first base, from first to take you to second, second, you take you to third, and thirty take you to home And on top of that, during batting practice, you would actually get on the basis and consciously really try to work your leads, your secondary leads well, looking for a ball in the dirt, practicing your first move on a steel jumps, hit and run, run around third base, your first move on contact. All this stuff needs to be nurtured during the season if that's what you're looking for. And I don't know this, but I would, I mean, Dave McKay at first base, believe that that's part of what you're seeing in regards to how well they're running the bases. It just doesn't happen because you're fast. Long answer, but fundamentally, and that's what I think Tory's been talking about the way the Diamondbacks play baseball. It's been written a thousand years ago, were the first how to do this. It's not it's not rocket science. It's just diligent work. You get your players to buy into so that they actually practice in a method that's going to carry over to the game and not just give you lip service just just going through the motions you get. You can't have that in order to get to the level that they're at. And so again they're young, they probably listened, they probably did the work, and that's what I'm saying.
That's a great point, Joe. I mean, clearly that's part of their DNA that there's buy in, there's there's work that goes into it. It doesn't happen by accident. On the other hand, I saw Philadelphia and listen. Not to pick on Dusty Watson, but he must have got somebody thrown out the plate once because he's very conservative over there. You have to send bryceon Stott in that two out single to left early it was two outs to one. I don't know why he held him up, and he did. The bottom of the order is coming up behind it. If you've got Harper coming up, I get it. And they wound up with basses loaded two outs and that kid Rojas at the plate. Listen, he's a great defender, but my goodness, he is literally an automatic out in the batter's box. There's no way I give him in that bet. I know it's early in the game, but you've got Pasche, who's just every bit the defender that Rojas is. I just can't give up with bases loaded there that at bat, and it's like having a picture bet in National League at this point. It's a young kid. You know he was not going to move to baseball. I'm sorry, and you don't want to hit guys that early in the game. I know you were up one at that point, but just to you know, in a bat there that somebody else has to take, whether it's Jake Cave or you know, even Pasche, somebody has to take that at bat. I just thought that was a lost opportunity for Philadelphia's to break the game open a little bit.
It's there's no tomorrow, Manners thinks you have to do. And I thought the same thing in the moment to your point about sending the runner. The one thing analytics does like because I had this with the Cubs and I thought it was actually pretty good for instance, if you have a run around third base and there's one out and there's a flyballhood to the outfield and it's relatively shallow, not your typical deep flyball, especially if an outfielder is moving laterally, send him at third base. So that was with but Brian Butterfield. We talked about that a lot. To send him. That's the time. And again, like you're saying batting order, part of the batting order was on deck, who's in hall? All this stuff is absolutely germane. But on this play we sent him based on that. So the ball caught is a second out, and now the third out could possibly be at home plate, but we're willing to take that chance. It's no different on the ground ball, like you're talking about with two outs, especially with the Rojas, and then in furthermore, if you want to extrapolate further, the fact that the pinchitting options weren't that great either. So yes, the two out mentality with base runners and to score, and it's got to be something, you know, signed third base coach to the runner at second base as an example, listen, two outs man, we're going here, we're going and I want you to know that base that we're going, and you start pointing at different spots in the outfield. Now, obviously, if there's something so blatantly you're gonna be out by thirty feet, of course you don't send them. But if it's a bang banger at that point, you got to go. And these are also these are parts of the conversation that this is like a part of a pre series. Meaning to me, that's important. Remember, guys, listen, we get in this situation two outs, that short sacrifice fly ball. I'm going to say you be ready. You talk about that run around second base two outs, you know, bottom of the boat batting. I mean you could say, just like that, you're not being offensive, be ready to go. And these are the kind of conversations that make a difference. And again I don't know, but I would bet dollars to donuts that's part of the pre series meetings with the Diamondbacks.
Good stuff. Now let's say goodbye the Houston Astros. I mean you have to give them credit. Obviously, seven straight lcs is just an amazing run. They've kept this train going here, but it came to a dead halt. Again, it's the team, the higher seeded team in both LCS has lost games six and seven. One went away from the World Series. Couldn't win a game at home. In Houston's case, it's been a story all year long. It's the weirdest thing I've seen, Joe. It's a very good team obviously, but a losing record at home in the regular season and it just never looked comfortable at home. They lost all four games a minute made Park. It's just amazing. They just don't hit at home. That game got away from them early. They never got it back. Jordan Montgomery came in and just settled the game. That looked like it was going to be a ten to nine game. But what do you make of Houston not being able to hit at home, especially here in the postseason.
It's a conversation I listened. I had the same thing from Angel players when we were there about the hitting background and sometimes it does impact them and affects them and they don't see the ball as well. I've heard that before, so going into this we had talked about it before. The one thing that to me stood out was the fact that they had a losing record at home. What does that mean based on their history with the trash can banging. Maybe that was part of it at that point because they weren't seeing the bubble. We really need to know what's coming to what to look for. The ball probably pops out somehow when it's thrown. It pops high maybe and gets into an area that the ball blends into the background as opposed to the greener background, and then it comes back certain pitches. It's tough. Bad hitting backgrounds are bad hitting backgrounds that bother you, legit, And I know I heard Derek Cheeter talk about this in the pregame with Fox. You just got to figure out how to do it. Obviously it didn't bother Texas as much, which it's really hard to understand, but I think it got into their heads. There's a lot of conversation about it. They kept going back and forth about it. And that's what I meant when I said early on, they're they're talking. I don't know what they're talking about, but there's something among the group that there's something fishy in Denmark, kind of a thing. I don't know. So anyhow, it's inexplainable. Other than that, it'd be interesting to go up there with a camera or to just stand there with a pitching machine have to throw different pitches and see what don't you see? As a matter of fact, what do you see? Well, what don't you see? Tall right handed pitcher, tall left handed pitcher? Where's the ball come? Jordan Montgomery coming from the left there? How do they see him? It differs. It differs with the width, the arm angles, the armstroke, the background itself, because you get out of the green, you get out of the black, and all of a sudden you get into these literally gray areas of the hitting background and it becomes more difficult. So I think that's I don't I don't think it's any more complicated than that. It was. It was a thing with them. And look at Al two bay. He seemed to not be short. I mean, does you see higher? All these things play into it.
Yeah, I mean, listen, I think they're crazy if they don't readjust that batter's eye in the center field. Now, about three or four weeks ago, they did take an ad that was in center field a little bit to the right field side of the main batter's eye and painted over it. It was a beer side. It was red and white. They painted over that had made that panel green. That's the indication to you right there that something's not right. Right when you see an end change in season change with the batter's eye in center field, something's wrong. Listen. I've stood behind a plate in both ballparks Minute Made and Globe Light Field. There's a huge difference. The one Globe Light Field is one of the nicest ones in baseball. It is probably, I want to say fifty I'm not exaggerating about fifty yards longer than the one higher. It's a it's a deeper color. The one A Minute Made is a lighter green.
Uh.
There's all kinds of just kind of distractions around the batter's eye. It's not a clean look. It's too small. I mean, listen, as you said, Texas hit there. I get it, but it maybe it became a mental thing for Uston. I just think that the tip off was they painted over a panel. Players are definitely not comfortable. Maybe it does get in their heads, you know.
Listen.
I've talked to enough of the astros. They love, love, love the batter's eye at Globe Life Field. There's no question about it. Alex Bregman also told me that it's tougher to hit a Minute Made because there's no gaps, uh, and you have huge gaps at Globe Life. But listen, I think the better team won the series. Texas's lineup is just on fire right now, is just so deep. And I looked at that Houston lineup, but I'm sorry, but you know, Kyle Tucker just disappeared. It just he lost his confidence and never got it back. It's weird, Joe, when you have a really good player, and he's a very good player who's played in the postseason before, who lost his confidence and never got it back. He was just feeling for the baseball. It looked like the same thing with Castillos, with the Phillies. Uh, just there was no conviction behind the stroke at all, and the same with Jeremy Pania. Just the bottom of that Houston lineup just disappeared. They made it too easy for Texas to get through it. On the other side, Houston had so much trouble getting through the Texas lineup and a clean inning no matter where they were. So give credit to the Rangers offensively. It was a mismatch as it turned out, where Texas just was a lot deeper human beings.
Man, you know you're up, you're down. As a baseball player, How do you feel? How how are you seeing the ball? What does your timing feel like? Does the ball look big? Does it looks small? Is it getting on you? Does it take for ever to get there? All these things happen, They just they just do. And when that ball looks huge and it takes for ever to get to you, you're killing it. And hot times it looks like a pe and the ocean and it's on you before. It's like that when you get that nightmare sleeping at night, and all of a sudden, here comes that nightmare of that dream. And literally you got like the six ' ten pitchers standing five feet in front of you and just pretty much reaching out into the catchersmid No chance, It just happens. It happens. It happens that way. I don't know how to explain it. Nobody really does, but it does. And it's unfortunate the timing. But was so bad for NICKI and for Tucker. I mean Tucker to me, man, you're right. I listened when this guy they kept hitting him sixth while I was there and even went against the cupid. Damn, this guy should be higher up in the batting order. But It was based on the fact that in front of him was so darn good too. He is that good. He will be back, He'll he'll he'll make us remake his more ark whatever. But it's just funny, man. It happens, and it just happens. Sometimes it happens at the wrong time.
Well, we wound up with an interesting World Series. The Arizona Diamondbacks had a negative run differential in the regular season. They're in the World Series. It's the worst run differential since the eighty seven Twins. And then you have the Texas Rangers, who in the course of the season had more blown saves than saves, the first team ever to do that to get here to the World Series. We'll break it down for you. Who do you like, Diamondbacks or Rangers.
Will be right back after this quick message.
All right, Joe's the Diamondbacks and the Rangers the World Series. Nobody saw coming. I will tell you this though, Joe, I say this every year in spring training, that the way baseball is now. Every year since the Wildcard began, except one year, there's been at least one team on average two that makes the playoffs coming off a losing season from the year before. So every year I try to identify which two teams are going to break through that had a losing season one year playoffs the next year. It just happens. The game turns over a lot quickly. And I picked the Diamondbacks and the Rangers, and listen, I didn't think they were going to the World Series, but I saw upsides with both teams. And now this is what happens when you get to the World Series. You had two hot teams. So let's break it down, Joe, what do you expect from this World Series Diamondbacks Rangers?
Well, what do I expect? First of all, from the Diamondback perspective, I expect you to see we're going to see the same team we saw the last several games against the Phillies. And further, when you go back even into that series with the two games that they lost the Phillies did in Arizona where Kimberle really had a difficult time at the end, that's that to me, would stick to me pretty hard. But regardless of that, the fact that the Diamondbacks come back in these games, the diamond have come back in one postseason playoff games. That's not easy to do. And that that's just either screams that from the Uh they're just so young and naive that things don't bother them, or they just got this wonderful focus and the ability to stay in a moment. But for those reasons, I mean, and how they're playing right now, I find them really fascinating and I think you're going to see a continuation of that. On the other side, the starting pitching for the Rangers upfront is really nice, but after that, it's it's kind of a flip of the coin cut other than I mean, Sures really hasn't shown that he's well yet, and but the other two guys have done really, really good, but I think one of them is gonna there's gonna be a hiccup in there at some point. So, uh, you know, the Rangers that could continue to play the same kind of ball, but right now you just you just addressed it earlier, and I was wrote a little bit of a note with the Diamondbacks. Are they designed for this time of the year, The fact that they're playing that kind of a game where the other team pitches, well, they still can circumvent that somehow Are they going to be able to circumvent how well, you have all these been pitching, and Montgomery has been pitching, because they will do different things. They're not just going to try to go up there and bludgeon these pitchers because they know that they can't. And so we got planned be in place too. So I hear that phrase so often, designed to play the short series this time of the year, What does that mean? Definitely, the Diamondbacks pitching has really shown me a lot more than I had known. Some guys had really had not seen a lot they didn't even know about. They've done really well. So honestly, I do believe, overall, overall, right now this moment in time, that I like the way that Diamondbacks are playing baseball and that they can figure out different ways to get on top and then stay on top. And furthermore, if they do get down, dang they've They've shown an ability to come back in the postseason. I like all of those characteristics. For Texas throws well, throw as well, but they will attempt to take advantage of the right pitchers. I could go on and on. I think I like the Diamondbacks ability to do things score runs, run the basis, move runners in an old fashioned way, best way I could say it, and then they're pitching is definitely strong enough, I think. And don't forget the Danny Harron factor in the background.
That's a great point. Danny Heron to run prevention specialists for the Diamondbacks, and you have to use that in tandem with the great Brent Strom, seventy five year old pitching coach. But how about that, By the way, in this series, you've got Brent Strom at seventy five and Mike Maddox in his twenty first year as a pitching coach. You think about experience and how that matters on a coaching staff. Wow, both teams really benefit from two of the best in my book in the game. And you'll watch every key moment in this game. It could be first in these games, first inning, ninth inning, it doesn't matter. Those pitching coaches are on the mound in key spots, guiding their guys through the game and most often get the next batter out. I mean, it's just amazing with these two guys, and then you can see they take control of these mound meetings. So I love that. I think both teams will be prepared. I'm with you. I think Arizona is sort of well built for this time of year, especially because late in the year they figured out their bullpen. It's just amazing. Ginkel is throwing his slider right now like he didn't all year long. I mean, he's got so much depth to it now, he's got so much confidence. This is the guy they sent down to the minor leagues in June. Saw Frank the lefty can just flip his breaking ball pitch after pitch after pitch. His confidence in that pitch. Seawald was picked up in the trade late in the year from Seattle. He's got that rider fastball that just plays. He's a strike thrower. I love that fact with the closer. So they've got pieces now. It's a different bullpen they really. It reminds me of nineteen Nationals who redid their bullpen in the course of a season. The overall numbers were not good for their pen. It was a different bullpen by the time they got to October. I'm a little bit concerned about Zach Gallon. He's a great pitcher, don't get me wrong, but he's a two hundred and thirty two innings for reason. Yeah, his his curve ball has gone missing here in the postseason. He's a guy who gets hit on first pitches, loves to throw first pitch strikes. But the batting average is over four hundred. Texas has just been killing first pitches, and obviously it starts with Corey Seger, but they all jump on that. That's an interesting matchup there, the Texas aggressiveness against the strike thrower like Gallon Brandon fought Man, that ball just jumps out of his hand. I know, he's basically a four or five inning pitcher, but tremendous confidence in him, which you know, he's kind of been an X factor for them. So a lot of good things are happening at the right time for Arizona. I do agree this looks like a long series, Joe. I can't see any team jumping out there in four or five games. You mentioned the Texas depth of the starting rotation. I think that is the issue, whether it's Suzer or Heeny or Dunning. You know, it's just it's kind of like we need to score runs to win games if you're Texas when those guys are on the mound. Montgomery rock solid of all the rock solid, both guys I like in the postseason, Joe, because They're four pitch guys, not two pitch guys, and they have command of all four pitches, so they don't pitch the patterns. They can beat you with different pitches. Those are tough matchups for the Diamondbacks. So I know, I listen. I'm hedging here because I do think it's an even series. Arizona has really impressed me, and I do think the running game is going to play. I think Texas does a better job than Philadelphia defending it, but that's that's how Arizona plays. They're gonna push the envelope. They're extremely athletic team. They're a young team. We used to say, Joe, in the postseason and you had a young team with sixteen cubs, we used to say, you know, lean on experience in the postseason. Right. I don't think that's the case anymore. These young guys they hit the ground running. They're not afraid of anything, the bright lights, the third deck of the stadium, postseason quote unquote, prey sure, if you watched Arizona play, they played fast and loose, literally fast and loose. So I like the attitude they bring into the series.
Yeah, I think the important thing there is to not be concerned or afraid about making a mistake, and don't change what you're doing now as compared to what you had done during the regular season. Fortune favors the bowl. That's the one thing I used to try to get across. And remember in two thousand and eight, Fernando Prez came up with the line. Remember when he scored on that sacrifice fly ball. JD. Drew caught it down the right field line, foul territory, not that deep, and here comes Fernando and he scores, we win, And he coined the phrase we air on the side of aggressiveness. And that's the one thing that I really wanted all my teams to embrace, and that team really did. That team was fearless. That two thousand and eight race team was absolutely fearless. So I see those qualities with the Diamondbacks right now. The more that i've I've had an opportunity to watch them. So the threat there is always that you become more conservative, don't want to make mistakes. Let's not take the same chances when you get to this time of the year, and net to me is a huge trap that you'll never again. I've talked about this you're never going to get that rest ring by backing off. Right now, keep the pedal down, pedal to the metal. Play the same game, take the same chances, which when I say chances, these are calculated risks, are chances based on your reconnaissance and your player's abilities and what to do. So I like that. I like that a lot. I think that's who they are. On the other side, you talk about the Rangers, Yeah, Seeger, Seeger. I know what Garcia did, but Seeger is the guy for me. He God, the guy doesn't miss his pitch. And I'm watching this and they're trying to you know, I don't know if they're trying to sneak or just miss location sometimes, but I would mess with them the whole I would frustrate him the whole series, I think, and I would put the emphasis or make sure that the other guys do beat us. I think he's that good. Left These are right as. It doesn't matter the other guy is low and you talk about left, these are righties. This guy hits lefties and this they need to protect the left field line against him. He dumps a lot of balls on that side. He's uh, he's a frustrating hitter, uh to to defense against.
And I think, yeah, he reminds me of Eric Hosmer by the way you almost have to try to make him pull the baseball to get him out of his comfort.
Right, And that's a good car. So there's all these little little things that are going on that I think are quite interesting with that team. Tavirus, really interesting player, the catcher texas him, he's really come up. And how about the catch with the Diamondbacks. Wow, I mean I look at that dude's eyes when he comes up to the play. Was it Reno right?
Yeah? Yeah, he's Gabby Moreno.
Yeah, I'm telling you, man. I mean, so this this is we really dig down. There's are some really interesting players, and there's lots, like you said, a lot of you on both sides that is really serving this well. And uh, they're not going to be afraid. They're these Like I said, if you come back and playoff games, you're not afraid, You're not intimidated. You stayed in the present tense. I heard I saw crem and Carroll and interviewed a video. My god, he's what what is he twenty something, four or five? Whatever? It is not at all when he speaks not at all. So there's these guys are fine.
Yeah, it's interesting. I was going to ask you this. You brought up Seeger to me. When I look at a series, a lot of times I think, you know which piece do you want to take off the board. Usually there's one guy in a lineup you need to circle and say. This guy is not beating us Garcia right now. Obviously tremendously hot. I mean, he's on an incredible streak. He's got twenty RBIs already in the postseason. There is some swing and miss in this game. I get that, but he is a dangerous, dangerous hitter right now. And by the way, I think hopefully even you are convinced now that the pitch from a Brady was not intentional. He's got a beef with Maldonado. That was what it was about. It wasn't about the pitch. But give MLB credit, though, because I thought they were going to have a situation where they were taking a guy off the field for a game seven of an LCS. They deferred it to next season. They got it right in the end. I don't know why they had to rush to have a hearing to suspend a guy for next year. But they did, and the bottom line is they got it right. They did the right thing, didn't affect the game, so we're good about that. But yeah, Seeger Garcia, I'm with you on Seeger. When I saw him at all home run on the first pitch fastball up, I was like, are you kidding me? How does that happen? It's like, you know, doing it to well tuovey. I'm with you. I would throw a tremendous amount of curveballs, chase curveballs. Don't try to think you're going to sneak anything by him. He is ready to hit from the time he wakes up in the morning. And you're right, he doesn't miss a pitch. But I think you got to account for Garcia right now too, Joe. I think he's that dangerous right now. He's he's a bright lights kind of guy. I think he likes this atmosphere. He actually reminds me of Randy Rosina, his buddy. They were roommates together in the Cardinal system. How about that, Aroza, Raina and Garcia in the Cardinal system together as roommates and they basically let both of them go for nothing. But anyway, that's besides the point. And then on Arizona, I look and I said, who's the guy you really have to take off the board? To me, it's Carol. He's just I don't want to see that guy up there, because if he gets on base, you know, it's a fire drill. Everybody's on edge once he gets on base. He's the best base rutterer I think I've seen this year. I know Dela Cruz at Cincinnati is just amazingly probably literally the fastest guy in baseball, But Corbyn Carroll, the way he's aggressive, the way he cuts the bases, I just think he's got that Ricky Henderson factor where you start missing pitches, you speed up your delivery. I mean, he can affect a game just by getting on base. So I'm going to go with Garcia as the guy I really need to control, at least from the onset. I need to stop him in his tracks, don't keep him hot. I just basically wouldn't pitch the Seger. And then on the other side, to me, it's Carol.
Yeah, you're talking about two guys on each team, which I kind of totally agree with with Seeger, he showed me in Baltimore that he was willing to accept his walks because they but the way Baltimore pitched him when they weren't challenging him, the ball's are really non competitive pitches. I think with him you need to make more tantalizing pitches that are not good meaning not a strike you know, strike the ball kind of pitches and not just ball out of your handball the way kind of pitches. Because I would really want to test his patience. I really would want him to become exaggerated, exasperated with the fact that we're not pitching him a So that's Seger for me. Garcia, on the other hand, I think he's going to be very eager, and I would test his patients. I would stay strike ball on him as much as I possibly can. I would, you know, fastballs elevated, elevated, and I think that's the right place to go with him also, So Seeger, Yeah, I just I just don't want to mess with him at all. Garcia, you're going to find out early be carried over to this series and then me you might have to make an adjustment. But he's he's chased. I would I would want Chase, Chase, Chase you want to get ahead and go into Chase Moode with him. I believe that's how I go. Look at him. The other guy's Moreno and Carol See I agree. I mean, Carol's just good. He's just really good, and he's a pin of butt in all the best ways. And he's going to accept his you know, his hits, and like he did that base it up the middle against Suarez yesterday or the day before. He's that guy. He's just really a bright baseball player. Moreno to me is scary. He's got this look man, and I tell you what, he gets hot. Looks like he really gets more involvementally. So what do you do? You take both of them? Why, it's probably difficult to do that. I still think Moreno in a big moment is there's there comes the home runner ball in a gap off the wall, Carol, I think the ball is going to be moved, So scary wise Mareno and Seeger, but just be careful what you're doing with Caroly and Garcia.
I just think it's so much fun, Joe, that the things we talk about with these two Pennant winning teams are things that you know, let's face it had gone away for a while in this game. I'm talking about, you know, being able to steal bases, run the bases, get a bunt down, get a guy in. You know, the veterans on the on the coaching staffs, especially the pitching coaches, who just don't live by a formula. It's just great to see this kind of baseball. And I think both Chris Young and Mike Hasen have done just an amazing job with both organizations to be open to different ways to win a ball game, to put staffs together.
You know.
The really cool thing is, obviously both are from Princeton. Chris Young went to Princeton on his recruiting visit that he met the captain of the team, the senior captain of that year, and that was Mike Hasen. They've been really close all these years, and I just love I mean, I walked into the Rangers camp in spring training this year and I felt it. And listen again, I don't know that they're gonna be a World Series team, but in talking to Chris Young seeing the way they were doing things, my goodness, Mike Maddix had the strings set up on the bullpen mounts. Remember those strings that teams was set up. I mean, I hadn't seen those in years, and he you know, he hired Dayton Moore, he hired Nick Hunley, he hired Mike Maddox. He brought in these guys with a lot of experience and listen, they've got all the bells and whistles in terms of technology and analytics, there's no question about it. But he also understands there's a feel and who's got better field than Bruce Bochi. The manager of this team, Tory Lavello is an old school soul. It's just cool to see, you know. Last thing on that Joe and Chris Young, I asked him about how they distill analytical information and he said he makes sure that he tells his analysts. One guy is going to present the information, he said. I don't want a bunch of guys. He told him in spring training. If you don't have business in that clubhouse, I don't want to see you in the lunch room. I don't want to see you in the clubhouse. I don't want to see you in the trainer's room. I don't want to see you in the manager's office unless you have something specific to bring you in there. And when it comes time to going over scouting reports, and you have all that analytic information, there's one guy who's in there all the time in terms of presenting some of this information. Who presents that information. It's not five six guys taking over the physical space at the clubhouse.
You know.
Obviously, Chris being a former player, he realizes how important that physical space is to have the players feel like it's their own. So listen, I don't want to overstate it. It's not like these guys are going back in time and dismissing anything analytic. They're not. But I think both these organizations have done a really good job balancing things. Yeah, and that's a credit to Mike Hays and and and to Chris Young. When you were empowered to do that, it shows a man.
I mean, And I got to know see why pretty well during the COVID era, and we would be on the phone a lot of actually got a file within my email just my conversations with him during that time. I'm so pleased when he got this opportunity. He's that good. And what you just told me is not surprising whatsoever. The fact that he dictated exactly how this is going to be done. And what he said and how he's doing it to me is absolutely the right way to do it. I think what's going to happen with the success of both of these teams, uh and whoever really wins, and there's going to be an analytical shift. In general, analytics is very flexible. It's not it's not this perfect method of doing things that you pick up analytics for dummies and you read the book and all of a sudden you could be an analysis analyst. My point is that whatever works for the team that wins, and to say that Diamondbacks win, you're going to see a greater shift in base running based dealing moving runners. You're going to see a more like literally small ball kind of a method. And that's the analytics that the organization is going to create is going to dictate to be dictated by these different elements in the game and not just the home run and this write out in the walk. So I'm very curious about this. Analytics is, like I said, very flexible, is fluid, it's not this perfect science. So I think just based on even just how far the Diamondbacks have gotten this year, it's going to influence impact analytical methods because then the numbers that are generated are generated because of the different weight that you apply to each thing you're jumpting to break down. So I'm curious about that. I'd be wonderful to really see the game, to say, let's just say the game and the analytical world become one become embraced into a situation where the word analytics primarily is the problem. It's not actually analytics themselves, the numbers that that we all want, that we've wanted that for years, that's not the problem. It's the word, the name, the analytics, and with that interference in the clubhouse. Too many guys downstairs, too much information, people that have never done it before running these meetings as opposed to people that have done it for fifteen, twenty thirty years. That's the problem. It's not the information. The problem is the analytical world and how it wants to present and interfere. It's not the information itself.
Yeah, if I'm an organization, I'm telling my scouts go find me. Corbyn. Carroll's out there, you know, give me you guys who can run, you can defend, and the lefties don't bother him and listen. He's a special player. I get that, but I'm talking about a skilled package now rather than putting you know, some refrigerators out there who can play defense and a shift and you know, worry about three true outcomes. Give you guys who can move, move the baseball, and move on the bases. And that's Arizona. It should be a fun series to watch because of that, the style of play. I think it makes her very entertaining baseball. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll talk about the managers, of course, and some of the managerial changes and openings going on around the game. There's a lot and we'll dive into that next thing. All right, Joe, You've you've managed against Bruce Bochie. I mean, what is it about this guy? I mean he has won get this, fourteen of his last fifteen postseason series. He is undefeated in winner take all games. He has the best record of all time and managers in one run games in the postseason. You know, he's out of the game for a few years. He shows up in Texas and they're in their World Series. I mean, come on, this guy is he's got the magic touch. So you've managed against him? What is it about Boach?
Well, you know, the thing is with Boach just you have to stay ahead. You have to first of all think with him and stay ahead of his thought process if you can, and one number two, then you have to have the appropriate pieces within your group in order to counteract whatever he wants to do. Whether it's a pinch hitter, primarily would be a pinch hitter because the moves are primarily based on bullpen management. The moves aren't necessarily based on their side pinch hitting, and the moves aren't necessarily these unique defenses or like you're talking, we're talking about the base running, hit and runs, you know, whether safety, schee whatever, It's not about that. The primary genius with him, I think is in game bullpen management and staying ahead and having the appropriate pieces to do that with. And then I think that he just engenders this real calm among this group. He is the Marlborough man. He is John Wayne. He walks out to the mount. He's hurting, but he gets out there and he's very direct and short of what he's doing and how he's doing, and I think the players feel all of that. So it's not like there's a super genius in the game itself regarding a bunch of different things. But I think he appeals to a wide audience regarding the players and how they when he talks to them. Kind of an impressive figure, so they're going to listen to what he has to say. But in game, in order to combat him in a sense, you have to have pieces, enough pieces, I would say, primarily to hopefully get the attune advantage, as they say, somehow with the relief pictures that he's going to bring in, because he's going to bring in the correct relief picture to pitch to your better guy or the hot guy in a situation, because he's going to be in advance of the moment.
Yeah, I think you hit all the things that I've seen, especially bullpen management. He's so good. You know where Rob Thompson stayed on, Craig Kimberroll probably game too long. You saw Bruce Bochi get off a role as Chapman. You know, he had spores in the game to pitch to Jordan Alvarez instead of Chapman and it was the right thing to do. So he's not afraid if you got a veteran guy, it's the right thing to do. He's going to make the move. Yeah, he has this he doesn't miss anything in the dugout. He's just on top of things. So I think he to me, he's a tough guy to manage against. On the other side, Tory Lavello. You know when I saw him but down one on the road in the postseason, that told me a lot. That told me he's he's going to do what he thinks is right. Players love playing for Tory. He's got a great relationship with Mike. Back to the Boston days, when I see a team like Arizona, I'm sure Joe you see this and to me, it reminds me of your raised team back in eight. You can see when a team has bought in where they believe that they are going to win, not just think they're going to win, but truly believe even if they're in the situation no one expected, at least on the outside. And I think Torre has had the ability to have his team buy in and right now they're dangerous because they believe or they know they're a really good team.
I'll tell you that you just you hit on something there inadvertently. The union between the manager and the general manager is so important. I had it with that I had it with Andrew, and I had it with Dio in Chicago. And when you have that, when you truly when you're in the daggat and you truly know whomever is watching from upstairs is we're on the same page, He's got your back. All those kind of things, you make decisions, uh, in a more blink like manner and a more in a in the moment kind of a manner, intuitively, because you're not worried about conversations afterwards. You're You're just worried about trying to make the right move in the moment. I totally believe the fact the way see why researched Boach and brought him back. He had that from day one. When you have that feeling, that thought, that that again, that union, Wow, it matters so much in regard to just how you process the day, how you live the day, how you think the day, and the conversations can actually become more difficult or harsher in a sense, because you can argue a little bit, you can disagree because you know you're working from the same sheet of music. Same thing with Tori and Arizona, these guys are definitely in lockstep. They actually have the same philosophies on things, but I'm betting they're not afraid to disagree and argue back and forth with one another, because I think that is so healthy. I had that, definitely had that with Andrew, had it with THEO for a while, and Arizona was trying to nurture that. I mean, excuse me, Anaheim was trying to nurture that. We never had enough time to really get to that point. But I think that's what you're seeing with these two organizations, the definite union between the manager and the general manager, and how that matters so much regarding how things operate in the clubhouse. And that makes my goodness, that makes everything I don't know right word is easier, but it definitely makes it better.
Great, great point. I mean, listen, I hadn't thought about it until you went into really depth there, but it's true. It's the most important relationship in baseball. And Chris Young when he hired Bruce Bochi said I'm not hiring you because I played for you. Because they were together in San Diego. I believe I'm not hiring you because I played for you. I'm hiring you because you're the best manager. You're the best manager for this team, and it shows Dusty Baker he's hanging it up as far as managing twenty six years, managing just an unbelievable career, a Hall of fame resume. I don't know what's going to happen with that Houston job, Joe. They may go external. I think the influence that Craig Bigio and Jeff Bagwell have in that organization right now tends me to believe that they want they want a strong name, they want someone with experience as well. I don't think if they're looking for, you know, a guy out of analytics school, some young guy, the next hot shot, I think they should lean out experience. I think that run for the Astros is getting near its end only because of some of the contracts they have with guys like l Tuve and Bregman coming up. We'll see he never count out that team. But that's an interesting opening. You've got San Diego. Now, how about Bob Melman was under contract to the Padres and they said, yeah, sure, go ahead and talk to the giants. Obviously that must have been in place, and they jumped on Bob Melvin. Listen, no secret that when we talk about You just talked about the relationship between the manager and the gm right. It was not good, folks, It was not good in San Diego. They were bringing Bob Melvin back only because he was under contract for next year. They didn't want to pay him to go away. So when the Giants came around and they said, oh you want to take him, take them. So I think San Diego is going to go young and cheap when it comes to the manager job. Maybe that's Ryan Flaherty, which we all know. He's back to Baltimore Day's connections with Manny Machado, so that's interesting there. And then you've got Craig Counsel out there interviewing with the New York Mets, which is not a surprise. I don't know what Craig really wants in his heart of hearts. Does he want the big contract, does he want a big market. He's the guy obviously grew up in Milwaukee, around the Milwaukee area, and he's looking to leave. It sounds like so difficult to know. I don't think the Mets are a great fit for Craig Council for a lot of reasons. But the fact is the Mets, we know can put a lot of money on the table, and if that's what he wants, the Mets can satisfy him. So a lot churning in the waters here. I know Cleveland had talked about Craig Council, which would be a great fit. But are they going to pay him? I don't know they were paying Terry Frank Honor pretty well. So a lot going on. So Joe's that's the landscape. Give me your take on it and your perspective, and maybe there's a fit for you out there.
Well. First of all, I think with Craig, this is an opportunity, probably once in a lifetime as a manager, that he could really set up his family for years to come in forever pretty much. So he needs to consider that. I think if in fact, he can get a very similar contract in Milwaukee or Cleveland in comparison to what he could get for the Mets, I think he would take that. I don't think he he's gonna want to walk into New York under those circumstances everything going on there, unless it's such a disparate difference between the amount of money paid by those smaller market teams compared to the large market team. Just you know, I, you know, just for a couple three four years maybe something like that. He's always going to get all the resources necessary to win right there. But then again you have to you have to also include the daily grind of plant, you know, managing the mats of the New York media, the expectations, all the pressure, whatever you want to describe it as. So I think that there's going to be some kind of a sliding scale there based on the amount of money being offered and compared to you know, the more similar lifestyle that he's left lift to this point or taking on kind of a beast situation where he's never been through this before as a manager. So when you're able to set your family up and I'm talking from experience with the Rays versus the Cubs, I had to do that. I had to do that because I was sixty or sixty one at that time. He's in his early fifties, which provides, you know, a longer window in regards to make it earning money, But does he want to do it that long? So all these things would be a consideration for him. He's going to be attractive to everybody, so it's going to be his choice, and what it's motivating him right now. That's going to be very strong consideration. And also the advice he's getting out from his agent, his family, whatever, also is going to play into it. The Dusty situation, I don't blame him. I think he's he's you know, he's done everything he possibly could there. I think he did a great job. He was he was the right man for the moment. They did well by choosing him, and uh, there's he has other interests and that's that. I could say that from experience too. The other interest component matters. If you have something, you just can't just stop doing something and kind of be bored. Uh, you know, because they have nothing else that I'm really really compassionate about or passionate about. Yeah, you have to be able to have that to slide back into, and I know Dusty does that. So that's going to be an easy transition for him. I think so Cleveland, I don't know what's going on there. San Diego, I agree. I agree they're gonna They're gonna probably go something young. The fact that he's had so many different managers over a short period of time. He wants to he's gonna have to. I think AJ is gonna have to find somebody that he really can be mentally in lockstep with Philly philosophs that they he knows this, he's not, they're not. It's not a wondering is this going to work? I know this is going to work out based on my relationship with whomember this person is going into this moment. I think that's going to be important. I think there's a certain amount of control that he's going to want over this the manager's seat. And again, a younger guy that he can grow with, literally, I think is going to be important. So for me, any any kind of direct relationship for me, something that really looks as a good fit for me, I don't know. I really don't know, because again, everything we've been talking about is there's such a real threading of a needle that needs to be done. The fact that Bobby went all the way up to San Francisco, obviously there was there wasn't going to work in San Diego. So I don't know. I just don't know how I'm viewed from outside looking in. You know, a couple of years ago, it would have been easy to say, yes, I was going to just jump on something new and and different, and I'm ready to go. But I've said it before, and I don't know just conversationally, how I would be appealing to somebody else. It would have to be would it require going into an office or whatever, sitting down and talking. But it has to be the draw's got to be from that site to me as opposed to me to them. I'd have to hear that first, because that's the only way this is going to work for me.
Yeah, I think we're seeing here with these managers in the postseason. Actually the last couple of years experience does matter. But again, it gets back to that relationship you spoke about so well between the general manager and the manager. A. J. Preller, by the way, had that guy already and Jase Tingler he knew Jase from Texas, knew him really well. That was the one guy you thought they were okay. We got a really strong relationship there, and that didn't work out. You know, the team kind of collapsed down the stretch and he had to get off him. It's unusual to see a general manager be able to get so many hires in terms of managers and have them not work out. It's a very interesting situation there in san Diego. They're probably going to trade Wan Soto this offseason. They're going to reduce the payroll, so that window is starting to close on San Diego. So I'm not sure if that is a great job at this point or it's a job that you grow in and becomes a great job. Again, that's an interesting job, and the Mets job is interesting, Joe, because I'm not sure Krek Counsel is dying to go to New York for all those reasons you talked about. It's not Milwaukee. We all know that the team is in a transition period, and I'm not even sure where they're transitioning to. But there's a lot of unknowns in that job. But as you said, if Steve Collin is going to pay him money that no one else is going to come close to, I think he will take that job. I do think that job requires experience. He's a great manager. Is Krek Counsel have no problem hiring him? I would lean Also if it's not counsel to someone who knows the New York landscape, someone like a Don Mattingly, It's a tough job to drop in somebody who a doesn't have experience and b doesn't know what New York is about because it's easy to get blindsided there by how fast and loud things are. So it's interesting the way it plays out. But again, looking at these two managers getting their teams here to the World Series, experience matters playing a game that has a lot of varieties to win a game. I think both Texas and Arizona, and Arizona especially can win a game in different paths, and that's why I think this is a different World Series and the managers have a lot to do with that.
Yeah, agreed, I mean, you can't discount any of that. That's right on. That's been part of my concern is the fact that the manager has been relegated to a lesser role. But like you're suggesting right now, you know, whether it was the Phillies right now, where the Rangers or the Diamondbacks, the teams that have concluded and gotten to this far a lot of experience there, a lot. I think Robbie's not managed a long time, Thompson, but Robbie's been around for a long time as a third base coach and the first lieutenant kind of a thing. It's just different, man, It's just different and when the game began ends. It's not it's not overwhelming. Talked about even a stage commercial about being able to slow things down, prepping in advance. I can't tell you how much my previous experiences come to the forefront mentally during these different playoff games and moments and situations, whether whether it's the actual game, it's before the game, it's conversations, uh, the tough conversations that are necessary. Like you said, when he's not going to pitch Chapman versus I'm going to continue to pitch kimberl I told you we've talked about the time when I had to tell Jason, hey, what he wasn't starting in San Francisco not happy, But when he came in the office, I told him exactly what was going on and exactly why. And you have to have the cachet in the ability to do those kind of things to really these listen, this this is this is a I don't want to tight in the in the sense that there is pressure tight everybody's on pins and needles on the edge. In a sense you're playing in front of the world baseball world basically, and it's really highly charged. And how you deal with these guys in those moments is an absolute difference maker. So there's a lot goes into this. And yes, I honestly and equivocally believe that the experience that had to the moment that I had to do these kind of things absolutely paid off and came to the forefront that Blake moment, the intuitive moment, is absolutely necessary in these situations.
Well, folks, stick around with us throughout the World series. Here we'll be able to break it down for you. You've got Joe World Series winning manager. I will be down with Fox on the field throughout these games and behind the scenes in the clubhouse with the managers. So if you want information, you're not going to going to get anywhere else. Keep listening, folks to the Book of Joe podcast. We'll be back with you. I'm guessing probably after the first couple of games in Texas, and I think it's going to be a long series. I do think it's at least a six probably a seven game series. I think the teams are that close. So I'm really looking forward to it. And for now, I look forward to what Joe always does at the end of our episodes, and that is to put a cap on our closer, Joe Madden, Who do you got today? Where are you going?
I have Ralph Ellison Invisible Man. It's a book I readin collegiately at Lafayette. I don't know if it was required reading or not, but it's pretty much addressed many of these social issues faced by African Americans in the early twenty first century. I really enjoyed it. And it's so weird, like you read things and you don't even realize the impact it has on your intellect or your method of thinking. But and I think it's germane. I was thinking about the Diamondbacks and everything we're just talking about right now here. It is life is to be lived, not controlled, and humanity is won by continuing to play in the face of certain defeat. Ralph Ellison, Good book Man, A really interesting book. Well, obviously, I can't say it's well ahead of the time, was necessary at the time that he wrote it. So I love that life to be lived and not controlled. I'm so anti controlling situations that some of your business to control them. And humanity is won by continuing to play in the face of certain defeat. I mean, whoever thought Arizona would come back in that situation. Who thought the Rangers would go back to Texas, to Houston and win that series. So love that kind of stuff, love that kind of human spirit. And it's not you have to be fearless. There's no weakness involved. There's a certain courage involvement this thing. Ellison wrote that way, and this book came out in the fifties, I believe, So that was really impactful for me.
Very apropos again, Diamondbacks, fast and loose, you go exactly how they're playing. We'll see you next time, Joe.
Thanks all right, brother, have a good time.
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