The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey There and Welcome Back. It's the latest edition of the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden and Joe. As I sit here in my office, I can look on my wall and I can see a framed poster, if you will, But it's actually the original catalog of a brand new car. I don't know if they still do that. It's been a long time since I bought a new car. Do they still have the catalogs of the cars and dealerships?

The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey There and Welcome Back. It's the latest edition of the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden and Joe. As I sit here in my office, I can look on my wall and I can see a framed poster, if you will, But it's actually the original catalog of a brand new car. I don't know if they still do that. It's been a long time since I bought a new car. Do they still have the catalogs of the cars and dealerships?

I think that's all online.

I think that's all online.

Actually, I was just messing around looking at some Dodge trucks the other day, and I think whatever you need to find is online pretty much.

Actually, I was just messing around looking at some Dodge trucks the other day, and I think whatever you need to find is online pretty much.

Yeah, I kind of miss those having those in your hands, or the fact they have the paint chips and the different colors you can choose. Yes, absolutely, Anyway, mine is the nineteen seventy three Plymouth Satellite. Okay, that was my first car. That's why it's in a frame on my wall now. The Plymouth Satellite, for those of you who obviously have not heard of it, it was used a lot by police departments. Right, I'm going to connect this to major league pitching. By the way, So HI with me on this. Now, my car was not a former police car. When I bought it used. I ripped off eleven one hundred dollars bills to pay for that bad boy. But Joe, if that were a police car, I'm not sure I would have bought it. Right. Would you buy a used police car or a used New York City cab? Probably not right, because let's face it, they get driven really, really hard. Right, you want the cars that was driven to church on Sunday And that's it. My point is when you're talking about major league pictures, and it's been a storyline this year in spring training that once again there's a lot of pictures going down with injuries. Essentially. I know people want to blame major league teams for the lack of development of keeping pictures healthy, But what they're doing is they're buying use New York cabs and buying it used police cars. In other words, there's a lot of mileage on these arms before these guys get to the big leagues. Why well, basically because of showcase ball, travel ball, the ability now to teach kids at an early age to throw really hard. The quest of velocity, which is how you get noticed in the amateur market. So all the way in Terry's showing up at an early age, and once they're in the hands of professional organizations, you know you're already working against the odds in terms of people getting healthy. I bring this up because again this spring training, and it happens every year, folks. You know Stan Conte, the old trainer with the San Francisco Giants, taught me this years ago. The most dangerous time of year if you're talking about pitcher injuries is spring training. Guys. Some guys have had some injuries at the end of the year. They hope that rest of the offseason gets them through it. Some people ramp up way too early. It's the most dangerous time of year for pictures. You think maybe August or September late in the year. No, it's actually March when guys really start to cut it loose. So you got Garrett call who's getting an MRI at his elbow. You've got Lucas Giolito who's down now, Tommy John surgery. Edward Cabrera with the Marlins now has a shoulder issue. Jackson Cower the Mariners traded for him from Atlanta. He's having Tommy John surgery. Well, the other guy they got in that trade, Cole Phillips, is having his second Tommy John surgery, and on and on it goes. So, Joe, we're going to talk about that today. And I don't want to pretend that we have answers, because baseball teams and medical professionals have studied this for a long time. But this is the game that we have now. It's a war of attrition with pitching. And if you're sitting there thinking there's one reason why this is happening, I think you're wrong. It's a very complex issue, agreed.

Yeah, I kind of miss those having those in your hands, or the fact they have the paint chips and the different colors you can choose. Yes, absolutely, Anyway, mine is the nineteen seventy three Plymouth Satellite. Okay, that was my first car. That's why it's in a frame on my wall now. The Plymouth Satellite, for those of you who obviously have not heard of it, it was used a lot by police departments. Right, I'm going to connect this to major league pitching. By the way, So HI with me on this. Now, my car was not a former police car. When I bought it used. I ripped off eleven one hundred dollars bills to pay for that bad boy. But Joe, if that were a police car, I'm not sure I would have bought it. Right. Would you buy a used police car or a used New York City cab? Probably not right, because let's face it, they get driven really, really hard. Right, you want the cars that was driven to church on Sunday And that's it. My point is when you're talking about major league pictures, and it's been a storyline this year in spring training that once again there's a lot of pictures going down with injuries. Essentially. I know people want to blame major league teams for the lack of development of keeping pictures healthy, But what they're doing is they're buying use New York cabs and buying it used police cars. In other words, there's a lot of mileage on these arms before these guys get to the big leagues. Why well, basically because of showcase ball, travel ball, the ability now to teach kids at an early age to throw really hard. The quest of velocity, which is how you get noticed in the amateur market. So all the way in Terry's showing up at an early age, and once they're in the hands of professional organizations, you know you're already working against the odds in terms of people getting healthy. I bring this up because again this spring training, and it happens every year, folks. You know Stan Conte, the old trainer with the San Francisco Giants, taught me this years ago. The most dangerous time of year if you're talking about pitcher injuries is spring training. Guys. Some guys have had some injuries at the end of the year. They hope that rest of the offseason gets them through it. Some people ramp up way too early. It's the most dangerous time of year for pictures. You think maybe August or September late in the year. No, it's actually March when guys really start to cut it loose. So you got Garrett call who's getting an MRI at his elbow. You've got Lucas Giolito who's down now, Tommy John surgery. Edward Cabrera with the Marlins now has a shoulder issue. Jackson Cower the Mariners traded for him from Atlanta. He's having Tommy John surgery. Well, the other guy they got in that trade, Cole Phillips, is having his second Tommy John surgery, and on and on it goes. So, Joe, we're going to talk about that today. And I don't want to pretend that we have answers, because baseball teams and medical professionals have studied this for a long time. But this is the game that we have now. It's a war of attrition with pitching. And if you're sitting there thinking there's one reason why this is happening, I think you're wrong. It's a very complex issue, agreed.

I mean, and if you could narrow it down, obviously we would have done that by now.

I mean, and if you could narrow it down, obviously we would have done that by now.

I really believe if.

I really believe if.

I had a pinpoint one item, I would think it's this chasing velocity has a lot to do with it getting out of like a normal pattern of delivering a baseball, almost like a tempoed golf swing, swinging too hard but being on time.

I had a pinpoint one item, I would think it's this chasing velocity has a lot to do with it getting out of like a normal pattern of delivering a baseball, almost like a tempoed golf swing, swinging too hard but being on time.

I watched these.

I watched these.

Drills that they're they're like taking crow hops and throwing as hard as they possibly can into nets and then they get out on the mountain. It's pretty much you don't even go from zero to six. So you're going from zero to like seventy five to eighty from your very first pitch, and that's what we're chasing. We're chasing velocity. There's a technique is not nearly as important, although you know you'll get on the different devices that apparently show your armstroke and how the ball is being released ball out of the hand.

Drills that they're they're like taking crow hops and throwing as hard as they possibly can into nets and then they get out on the mountain. It's pretty much you don't even go from zero to six. So you're going from zero to like seventy five to eighty from your very first pitch, and that's what we're chasing. We're chasing velocity. There's a technique is not nearly as important, although you know you'll get on the different devices that apparently show your armstroke and how the ball is being released ball out of the hand.

It's rotation, et cetera. Spin.

It's rotation, et cetera. Spin.

But at the end of the day, I still like the idea of a good hitting instructor watching a hitter from the open side. And I still love the idea of a really accomplished pitching coach watching a pitcher throw the baseball from the side of his choice. Those are the kind of things that I think have gone awry. Also, I have a friend and I know we talked about this, is a fellow by name of Jim Kernel.

But at the end of the day, I still like the idea of a good hitting instructor watching a hitter from the open side. And I still love the idea of a really accomplished pitching coach watching a pitcher throw the baseball from the side of his choice. Those are the kind of things that I think have gone awry. Also, I have a friend and I know we talked about this, is a fellow by name of Jim Kernel.

I played ball with that Lafayette.

I played ball with that Lafayette.

He's doing like a really big study on this, and he has a really strong opinion about how this is happening and why, and he's talked to Ron Darling about it pretty much, regarding how far the hand gets behind the head and with the torque in the upper body and how it like almost like your shoulders almost touch each other behind in an attempt to create more velocity. He's probably made more sense of this than anybody I've seen to this point. But anyway, there's there's a variety of different reasons. I think chasing velocity is number one. After that, you can't even talk about overuse or abuse. It's not permitted, it doesn't happen. Maybe that's the problem. We're not letting them throw enough pitches, not letting them throw enough pitches where you're just trying to get hitters up by making good pitches as opposed to trying to strike everybody out.

He's doing like a really big study on this, and he has a really strong opinion about how this is happening and why, and he's talked to Ron Darling about it pretty much, regarding how far the hand gets behind the head and with the torque in the upper body and how it like almost like your shoulders almost touch each other behind in an attempt to create more velocity. He's probably made more sense of this than anybody I've seen to this point. But anyway, there's there's a variety of different reasons. I think chasing velocity is number one. After that, you can't even talk about overuse or abuse. It's not permitted, it doesn't happen. Maybe that's the problem. We're not letting them throw enough pitches, not letting them throw enough pitches where you're just trying to get hitters up by making good pitches as opposed to trying to strike everybody out.

I mean, there's all these philosophical reasons.

I mean, there's all these philosophical reasons.

So anyway, I think it has something to do with delivery to chasing velocity. I think it has something to do with what happens with your hand and your arm behind your head in regards to on your foot lands and the torque that you're putting on.

So anyway, I think it has something to do with delivery to chasing velocity. I think it has something to do with what happens with your hand and your arm behind your head in regards to on your foot lands and the torque that you're putting on.

All of that.

All of that.

I think there's a correlation to all of that.

I think there's a correlation to all of that.

All really really great points. Joe and I agree with all of them. It does a lot to dive into there, and we will get to mechanics because it's a very important point. Let's start with velocity. There's no question that we have the ability now talking about the industry of baseball, to have guys throw harder to max out in velocity. You and I grew up in an era where you know you were blessed with a good arm or not, you pretty much threw harder. You didn't. Now we realize there are ways to train the body to throw harder. I'm not talking about taking a guy out of your local bar and all of a sudden he's getting hit one hundred on the gun. No, but pushing the envelope in terms of chasing velocity. It's easily done. They're proven ways to do that. It's happening, There's no question about it. Velocity is going up around the game. It has been for the last decade or so. What that means is, again, this is translating down to the amateur level, right, and you're talking about players who are doing things like you mentioned, Joe, whether it's weighted balls or throwing hard into nets. They're training like grown men when their growth plates are still open. I would not if I have a major league organization touch a guy at the top of the first round who's throwing ninety five plus in heighths wouldn't do it, and the odds show you that their breakdowns waiting to happen. Having velocity at a young age is both a blessing and its curse. It's a blessing because you're gonna punch out people. Kids at that age are not gonna hit velocity. It's a curse because you are ramping up that arm and pushing it to limits that you shouldn't be at that age when you're not physically fully developed. So you've got that again. So I think velocity, there's no question there's a correlation here between velocity and the breaking down of the shoulders slash elbow. There's no question about it. And the more we chase it, the more we're putting pitchers in harm's way. You know the the ASMI group down in Birmingham, Alabama, it's Doctor Andrews group, and they've done amazing things studying all this. They have drawn a correlation between velocity and the breakdown of the arm. And their recommendation is similar to what you said, Joe, is don't redline all the time. Don't go out there and max out in your velocity all the time. The ones that lasts are the ones who have a cruising speed, and then they can find that max pitch when they need to have that. It's hard to convince young players to do that when this game is predicated on go as hard as you can for as long as you can, even if that's four or five innings. Major league teams are happy with that. So it's hard to convince a guy now to not redline with every single pitch from the first inning on.

All really really great points. Joe and I agree with all of them. It does a lot to dive into there, and we will get to mechanics because it's a very important point. Let's start with velocity. There's no question that we have the ability now talking about the industry of baseball, to have guys throw harder to max out in velocity. You and I grew up in an era where you know you were blessed with a good arm or not, you pretty much threw harder. You didn't. Now we realize there are ways to train the body to throw harder. I'm not talking about taking a guy out of your local bar and all of a sudden he's getting hit one hundred on the gun. No, but pushing the envelope in terms of chasing velocity. It's easily done. They're proven ways to do that. It's happening, There's no question about it. Velocity is going up around the game. It has been for the last decade or so. What that means is, again, this is translating down to the amateur level, right, and you're talking about players who are doing things like you mentioned, Joe, whether it's weighted balls or throwing hard into nets. They're training like grown men when their growth plates are still open. I would not if I have a major league organization touch a guy at the top of the first round who's throwing ninety five plus in heighths wouldn't do it, and the odds show you that their breakdowns waiting to happen. Having velocity at a young age is both a blessing and its curse. It's a blessing because you're gonna punch out people. Kids at that age are not gonna hit velocity. It's a curse because you are ramping up that arm and pushing it to limits that you shouldn't be at that age when you're not physically fully developed. So you've got that again. So I think velocity, there's no question there's a correlation here between velocity and the breaking down of the shoulders slash elbow. There's no question about it. And the more we chase it, the more we're putting pitchers in harm's way. You know the the ASMI group down in Birmingham, Alabama, it's Doctor Andrews group, and they've done amazing things studying all this. They have drawn a correlation between velocity and the breakdown of the arm. And their recommendation is similar to what you said, Joe, is don't redline all the time. Don't go out there and max out in your velocity all the time. The ones that lasts are the ones who have a cruising speed, and then they can find that max pitch when they need to have that. It's hard to convince young players to do that when this game is predicated on go as hard as you can for as long as you can, even if that's four or five innings. Major league teams are happy with that. So it's hard to convince a guy now to not redline with every single pitch from the first inning on.

Stay within the speed limit right for a while. I mean, I have some of the best pictures I've been around are those guys that have that little extra when it's necessary. When the strikeoud is when you don't want to see contact runner and scoring position, running a second base, zero out, one out, two running and scoring position, you want to stay away from contact at all. That's where you might see a little bit more out of in the past. Really, the Thoroughbred pictures, you saw all of that, there's something left in the tank for those moments. They didn't show you everything they had all the way through. Now you just want let's empty the tank. Let's rev it all the way up RPMs as much as you can, as long as you can as hard as you can. And now I think that really feeds into the system of third time through the batting order.

Stay within the speed limit right for a while. I mean, I have some of the best pictures I've been around are those guys that have that little extra when it's necessary. When the strikeoud is when you don't want to see contact runner and scoring position, running a second base, zero out, one out, two running and scoring position, you want to stay away from contact at all. That's where you might see a little bit more out of in the past. Really, the Thoroughbred pictures, you saw all of that, there's something left in the tank for those moments. They didn't show you everything they had all the way through. Now you just want let's empty the tank. Let's rev it all the way up RPMs as much as you can, as long as you can as hard as you can. And now I think that really feeds into the system of third time through the batting order.

I've always felt third time through the.

I've always felt third time through the.

Batting order it could be accomplished by an accomplished pitcher who ways of pitching and has other things left in his bag to show this hit or the third time through. I think that's not even discussed. I don't even have a way to prove all that. It's just observational on my part. Guys that have that other thing that they can do and know how to pitch can get through the third time through.

Batting order it could be accomplished by an accomplished pitcher who ways of pitching and has other things left in his bag to show this hit or the third time through. I think that's not even discussed. I don't even have a way to prove all that. It's just observational on my part. Guys that have that other thing that they can do and know how to pitch can get through the third time through.

You talk about, you know, when.

You talk about, you know, when.

These guys just work out on the side these days, it's normally with some kind of a monitor there and some kind of a device there. When these guys are working. I mean, I think it's I don't even know how much in the big leagues, but definitely within the minor leagues. After pitch thrown, a lot of times, the pitchro'll turn to whomever and say what did that say? What was my spin rate? What was the movement? What was the vertical or horizontal movement on that particular pitch.

These guys just work out on the side these days, it's normally with some kind of a monitor there and some kind of a device there. When these guys are working. I mean, I think it's I don't even know how much in the big leagues, but definitely within the minor leagues. After pitch thrown, a lot of times, the pitchro'll turn to whomever and say what did that say? What was my spin rate? What was the movement? What was the vertical or horizontal movement on that particular pitch.

That's what they want to know.

That's what they want to know.

It's not about you know, the delivery, picking up my target, completing the pitch. When you throw a ball well, I don't care if it's a football or baseball, and you throw it well, it feels like he didn't throw it at all. There's like this naturalness athleticism to your body. And that's when you're probably and I'll say you were throwing your absolute best, your max. When you throw something well and accomplished and you didn't feel like you threw it at all. That's what I would be striving for as a pitcher. But these guys, there's so much recoil and deliveries. I saw my grandson throwing the other day, Trey, and he's got a nice arm. He's a tall kid. He looks like Nuke l Lush. I call him Nuke. But when he hits, he's recoiling off to the left already, you know, at different left leg and here we go to the left because he's probably chasing velocity. It's all in there, man, it's I definitely believe with a different tact, a different philosophy in play, that you'd be able to sustain arms longer. If you really understand stay within the speed limit, get outside of that when it's necessary. Let your defense play. We always us to talk about pitch the contact. Nobody wants to hear that anymore. Nobody wants to hear the good sninker ball on the ground. Set the way defenses are set up these days, according to the data, which I like, I've defended that from the beginning, that is a good way to set up your defense. You would think that there'd be more pitching the contact situations, and then you go for the punch when it's necessary. These are the kind of thoughts that I'd like to see incorporate it more.

It's not about you know, the delivery, picking up my target, completing the pitch. When you throw a ball well, I don't care if it's a football or baseball, and you throw it well, it feels like he didn't throw it at all. There's like this naturalness athleticism to your body. And that's when you're probably and I'll say you were throwing your absolute best, your max. When you throw something well and accomplished and you didn't feel like you threw it at all. That's what I would be striving for as a pitcher. But these guys, there's so much recoil and deliveries. I saw my grandson throwing the other day, Trey, and he's got a nice arm. He's a tall kid. He looks like Nuke l Lush. I call him Nuke. But when he hits, he's recoiling off to the left already, you know, at different left leg and here we go to the left because he's probably chasing velocity. It's all in there, man, it's I definitely believe with a different tact, a different philosophy in play, that you'd be able to sustain arms longer. If you really understand stay within the speed limit, get outside of that when it's necessary. Let your defense play. We always us to talk about pitch the contact. Nobody wants to hear that anymore. Nobody wants to hear the good sninker ball on the ground. Set the way defenses are set up these days, according to the data, which I like, I've defended that from the beginning, that is a good way to set up your defense. You would think that there'd be more pitching the contact situations, and then you go for the punch when it's necessary. These are the kind of thoughts that I'd like to see incorporate it more.

Yeah, listen to it's first of all. One thing that really bothers me is when people say, well, the throwing a baseball is an unnatural act. It's not. The human body. The way the shoulder is designed, it's built to throw. I mean, that's the way people killed their prey back in the day, right, But they were probably weren't designed to throw sliders at ninety four miles an hour. Sure, Okay, that's the difference here. The human arm is built to throw. In fact, the fastest motion in the human body is the rotation of the shoulder and the arm when a baseball is thrown. The people again at s MII in Birmingham, American Sports Medicine Institute, they actually took a cadaver and they figured out how far could you stress the shoulder in terms of the pressure on it before it literally falls apart. And guess what it's exactly at the point a pitcher puts pressure on that shoulder capsule area when he throws a ball ninety plus miles an hour. Now, the cadaver was not a twenty five year old, you know, athlete in his prime. I get it, but you get the point there. We're already at the physical envelope, the edge of the envelope when it comes to throwing a baseball hard. Okay, so the when you do it so many times and again, I can't stress this enough, especially at a young age, it's really really important. I'm going to read you something Joe, that the people at ASMI decided when you know this, the epidemic so to speak, of Tommy John surgeries, it's gone on for a long time, right, I want to say almost two decades. Weren't too that now, So this goes back to twenty sixteen when it seemed like we were having a ramp of injuries. Here's what they said. When an orthopedist performed surgery on a torn ulner collateral ligament Tommy John ligament, the surgeon will almost always see a ligament that has frayed over time from overuse and repetition. In previous generations, my major league pitchers grew up competitively pitching only a few months each year, but nowadays leagues and teams are available for adolescents to play competitive baseball almost all year. Research has shown a strong link between too much competitive pitching and arm injuries, and the key phrase there for me, Joe, is competitive pitching, not throwing. Competitive pitching when you've got the uniform on, people are watching you, and you're keeping score and the account's being taken, that's competitive pitching.

Yeah, listen to it's first of all. One thing that really bothers me is when people say, well, the throwing a baseball is an unnatural act. It's not. The human body. The way the shoulder is designed, it's built to throw. I mean, that's the way people killed their prey back in the day, right, But they were probably weren't designed to throw sliders at ninety four miles an hour. Sure, Okay, that's the difference here. The human arm is built to throw. In fact, the fastest motion in the human body is the rotation of the shoulder and the arm when a baseball is thrown. The people again at s MII in Birmingham, American Sports Medicine Institute, they actually took a cadaver and they figured out how far could you stress the shoulder in terms of the pressure on it before it literally falls apart. And guess what it's exactly at the point a pitcher puts pressure on that shoulder capsule area when he throws a ball ninety plus miles an hour. Now, the cadaver was not a twenty five year old, you know, athlete in his prime. I get it, but you get the point there. We're already at the physical envelope, the edge of the envelope when it comes to throwing a baseball hard. Okay, so the when you do it so many times and again, I can't stress this enough, especially at a young age, it's really really important. I'm going to read you something Joe, that the people at ASMI decided when you know this, the epidemic so to speak, of Tommy John surgeries, it's gone on for a long time, right, I want to say almost two decades. Weren't too that now, So this goes back to twenty sixteen when it seemed like we were having a ramp of injuries. Here's what they said. When an orthopedist performed surgery on a torn ulner collateral ligament Tommy John ligament, the surgeon will almost always see a ligament that has frayed over time from overuse and repetition. In previous generations, my major league pitchers grew up competitively pitching only a few months each year, but nowadays leagues and teams are available for adolescents to play competitive baseball almost all year. Research has shown a strong link between too much competitive pitching and arm injuries, and the key phrase there for me, Joe, is competitive pitching, not throwing. Competitive pitching when you've got the uniform on, people are watching you, and you're keeping score and the account's being taken, that's competitive pitching.

No question.

No question.

It's a different vibe completely. That's the difference between spring training and a regular season two normally. I mean in spring training. As a manager, I learned early on that you know, of course you're paying attention, of course you're watching, but don't put a lot of stock into performance at this particular time.

It's a different vibe completely. That's the difference between spring training and a regular season two normally. I mean in spring training. As a manager, I learned early on that you know, of course you're paying attention, of course you're watching, but don't put a lot of stock into performance at this particular time.

It's different.

It's different.

The moment the big lights go on, everything changes.

The moment the big lights go on, everything changes.

For a kid.

For a kid.

Those big lights are anytime you see a Scout back there with a gun, or just knowing the fact that a Scott might be back.

Those big lights are anytime you see a Scout back there with a gun, or just knowing the fact that a Scott might be back.

There when you're that young again.

There when you're that young again.

To be able to process all the thoughts and information being thrown your way, it's difficult. So you're always when you're on point, the show is on, you're going to reach back for something more. And I definitely understand that and agree with that as being a part of the contributing factors. The other point just to I don't know if this is relevant or not, but you're talking about the chasing velocity and everybody wanting that to be what everybody wants. We're at the point now it seems almost like we're willing to open up a new can of pictures. I mean, we're going to utilize this shelf and there's a shelf life on it. They're probably stamped like a can of beer in my fridge right now, you know the date when it was born and potentially.

To be able to process all the thoughts and information being thrown your way, it's difficult. So you're always when you're on point, the show is on, you're going to reach back for something more. And I definitely understand that and agree with that as being a part of the contributing factors. The other point just to I don't know if this is relevant or not, but you're talking about the chasing velocity and everybody wanting that to be what everybody wants. We're at the point now it seems almost like we're willing to open up a new can of pictures. I mean, we're going to utilize this shelf and there's a shelf life on it. They're probably stamped like a can of beer in my fridge right now, you know the date when it was born and potentially.

The date that you got to throw it away.

The date that you got to throw it away.

I mean, it's almost like we're putting a date on these guys as they're coming up, just based on the fact the way we're teaching them and what we're trying to requesting them to get done. It's almost like you put a stamp on them when that Tommy John's going to occur, or when things are going to start breakdown, or there's always anomalies, man, and there's always the anomaly guy, and throughout history when we were growing up, and even today to a point which you thought Garrett Cole was an anomaly too. So anyway, I think part of it is the ubiquitous nature of young guys that are able and willing to throw hard. Right now, I think that, okay, if this guy breaks down, that's why we got this this stockpile in the minor leagues, bringing other guys up that throw that hard too. I think that's part of the philosophy I do. I don't know that there's as much concern with the breakdown as there had been in the past.

I mean, it's almost like we're putting a date on these guys as they're coming up, just based on the fact the way we're teaching them and what we're trying to requesting them to get done. It's almost like you put a stamp on them when that Tommy John's going to occur, or when things are going to start breakdown, or there's always anomalies, man, and there's always the anomaly guy, and throughout history when we were growing up, and even today to a point which you thought Garrett Cole was an anomaly too. So anyway, I think part of it is the ubiquitous nature of young guys that are able and willing to throw hard. Right now, I think that, okay, if this guy breaks down, that's why we got this this stockpile in the minor leagues, bringing other guys up that throw that hard too. I think that's part of the philosophy I do. I don't know that there's as much concern with the breakdown as there had been in the past.

I agree one hundred percent, Joe. I think you're almost emboldened by the supply again, as we can keep training pitchers to throw hard, not necessarily be you know, craftsmen of the of the craft of pitching. That supply is almost endless. And you know, got two pitch guys who can throw hard and spin a baseball. There's a lot out there to recover from the inevitable breakdowns. Now, over the years, to me, the two biggest red flags for pitcher injuries have been overuse and poor mechanics. Joe, you brought up the idea of overuse. We're going to talk about that as it applies to today's game. Our pitcher's actually overused anymore. We'll talk about that right after this.

I agree one hundred percent, Joe. I think you're almost emboldened by the supply again, as we can keep training pitchers to throw hard, not necessarily be you know, craftsmen of the of the craft of pitching. That supply is almost endless. And you know, got two pitch guys who can throw hard and spin a baseball. There's a lot out there to recover from the inevitable breakdowns. Now, over the years, to me, the two biggest red flags for pitcher injuries have been overuse and poor mechanics. Joe, you brought up the idea of overuse. We're going to talk about that as it applies to today's game. Our pitcher's actually overused anymore. We'll talk about that right after this.

All right, Joe.

All right, Joe.

You know, as a manager, you're watching there that your guy on the mound and whatever the pitch count is, you're making sure that he stays in his delivery. And sometimes, you know, a guy gets outside of his delivery. It's kind of a warning side. I thought it was really cool when you sat down with me and Bob Costas and Terry Francona to talk about Game seven of the twenty sixteen World Series, and Corey Klueber was out there in the seventh month of the year, pitching for a third time in nine or ten days, second start in a row, on short rest, and it was interesting what Terry Francona said that he knew watching him early in the game that his arm was starting to drop. I thought that was just so interesting. It's the eyes of a veteran manager in a dug out looking at this guy and know one he was leaking some oil out there. My point is, Joe, that happens so rarely in the game today. Baseball has now aired on the side of protecting these guys of quote unquote saving bullets. It's rare that pitchers are out there throwing at any point of fatigue. The average rest going into a start now is four or five days of rest, really five days more than four. So they're pitching less than they ever have, pitching less often than they ever have, and they're breaking down more so. I think the argument that pitchers pitched too much and that's the reason why guys get hurt. I don't think that flies anymore.

You know, as a manager, you're watching there that your guy on the mound and whatever the pitch count is, you're making sure that he stays in his delivery. And sometimes, you know, a guy gets outside of his delivery. It's kind of a warning side. I thought it was really cool when you sat down with me and Bob Costas and Terry Francona to talk about Game seven of the twenty sixteen World Series, and Corey Klueber was out there in the seventh month of the year, pitching for a third time in nine or ten days, second start in a row, on short rest, and it was interesting what Terry Francona said that he knew watching him early in the game that his arm was starting to drop. I thought that was just so interesting. It's the eyes of a veteran manager in a dug out looking at this guy and know one he was leaking some oil out there. My point is, Joe, that happens so rarely in the game today. Baseball has now aired on the side of protecting these guys of quote unquote saving bullets. It's rare that pitchers are out there throwing at any point of fatigue. The average rest going into a start now is four or five days of rest, really five days more than four. So they're pitching less than they ever have, pitching less often than they ever have, and they're breaking down more so. I think the argument that pitchers pitched too much and that's the reason why guys get hurt. I don't think that flies anymore.

I don't.

I don't.

Again, it goes back to what are we asking them to do in the first place, and that's to throw as hard as they possibly can. The game has shifted to an emphasis on relievers. And again this comes to the third time through. All these things are interconnected. I oftentimes, even in the past with the Cubs and even before that with the race, I always talked about playing the game backward. You know there was a time if you remember, I know you do that bullpens are not considered so valuable, right and they're like a dime a dozen kind of guys.

Again, it goes back to what are we asking them to do in the first place, and that's to throw as hard as they possibly can. The game has shifted to an emphasis on relievers. And again this comes to the third time through. All these things are interconnected. I oftentimes, even in the past with the Cubs and even before that with the race, I always talked about playing the game backward. You know there was a time if you remember, I know you do that bullpens are not considered so valuable, right and they're like a dime a dozen kind of guys.

Just I don't worry about it. We will pick up whenever we want.

Just I don't worry about it. We will pick up whenever we want.

We'll bos get this settled in spring training, et cetera, et cetera. And I always just think, what are you talking about? You could absolutely work a game backwards, and I think you know that's actually what's happening right now. They want to work the game backwards. It's not something that you did because you lack really good starting pitching. Now you do it because that's what you want to do. So now the emphasis is on the relievers, and I think that's a big part of the less number of inningstone by starters. And I think that trend's going to continue because you're not building it up in the minor leagues because these guys are not permitted to go through adversity in the minor leagues. Well, that's number one. You've said that it's so important to stretch your young pitchers out in the minor leagues. That you like that you think these guys potentially are part of your big league team. These guys have to go through some adversity. They have to be permitted to pitch out of bad situations. They have to be permitted to throw one hundred sometimes one hundred and ten pitches in the minor leagues to get hopefully through the sixth inning, not just the fifth inning. Because the more you get your guys to it's it's ups and downs. When you get guys to understand six ups and downs and even seven, wow that now you got somebody special coming up to your big league team. Last point, regarding over the use. You talked about that out of delivery, that was my big thing. As soon as you said that, I just flashed on Shieldsy James Shields. Shields was a horse man, and I should say permitted him to go over one hundred and eight pitches once because he always wanted to go more, always wanted to go more. I thought he was coming out of his delivery and I thought he got to that number. I don't know why I won a wait, but all of a sudden, bad things would happen. So eventually, you know, when the scores right, the inning's right, everything's cool, you let him go and see how he handles it. Eventually he figured it out and party pretty much what that would be was like trying not hit the ball three point fifty down the center. Just hit it three hundred with your three would whatever, two fifty whatever, don't come out of your delivery. That was me with him. I'd see him come out of his delivery. Alex Kobb come out of his delivery. Those would be warning signs for me. That's what I always looked at with my better pitchers, and I would say that to the whomever st my pitching coach or like Mike Borsello, gott he's staying in his delivery, I'm gonna stay with him.

We'll bos get this settled in spring training, et cetera, et cetera. And I always just think, what are you talking about? You could absolutely work a game backwards, and I think you know that's actually what's happening right now. They want to work the game backwards. It's not something that you did because you lack really good starting pitching. Now you do it because that's what you want to do. So now the emphasis is on the relievers, and I think that's a big part of the less number of inningstone by starters. And I think that trend's going to continue because you're not building it up in the minor leagues because these guys are not permitted to go through adversity in the minor leagues. Well, that's number one. You've said that it's so important to stretch your young pitchers out in the minor leagues. That you like that you think these guys potentially are part of your big league team. These guys have to go through some adversity. They have to be permitted to pitch out of bad situations. They have to be permitted to throw one hundred sometimes one hundred and ten pitches in the minor leagues to get hopefully through the sixth inning, not just the fifth inning. Because the more you get your guys to it's it's ups and downs. When you get guys to understand six ups and downs and even seven, wow that now you got somebody special coming up to your big league team. Last point, regarding over the use. You talked about that out of delivery, that was my big thing. As soon as you said that, I just flashed on Shieldsy James Shields. Shields was a horse man, and I should say permitted him to go over one hundred and eight pitches once because he always wanted to go more, always wanted to go more. I thought he was coming out of his delivery and I thought he got to that number. I don't know why I won a wait, but all of a sudden, bad things would happen. So eventually, you know, when the scores right, the inning's right, everything's cool, you let him go and see how he handles it. Eventually he figured it out and party pretty much what that would be was like trying not hit the ball three point fifty down the center. Just hit it three hundred with your three would whatever, two fifty whatever, don't come out of your delivery. That was me with him. I'd see him come out of his delivery. Alex Kobb come out of his delivery. Those would be warning signs for me. That's what I always looked at with my better pitchers, and I would say that to the whomever st my pitching coach or like Mike Borsello, gott he's staying in his delivery, I'm gonna stay with him.

Or I see him coming out of it.

Or I see him coming out of it.

He's trying to manufacture the loss of your stuff. Let's get him and make sure somebody so and so is ready. Those are the warning signs for me, one hundred percent. You're out on the money with that. But the game, the emphasis is on relievers, and because of that, you're not going to see start a stretched out and because of that, they want guys to swing and miss, and because of that we're going to chase velocity.

He's trying to manufacture the loss of your stuff. Let's get him and make sure somebody so and so is ready. Those are the warning signs for me, one hundred percent. You're out on the money with that. But the game, the emphasis is on relievers, and because of that, you're not going to see start a stretched out and because of that, they want guys to swing and miss, and because of that we're going to chase velocity.

I'm going to tell you a story that you know, given the events of this week with Garrett Cole getting an MRI and his elbow the time. He may not be perfect, but I'll tell you it anyway. I was in the dais room before the Baseball Writers Awards dinner this year. Garrett Cole was there to pick up his cy Young Award, his first Say Young Award. It's amazing. He's been so good for so long. It took him this long to be the one who want it, but he did. And his dad came up to me in the dais room and he told me you are as much a part of this cy Young Award as anybody else. And obviously I was blown away like a cue. What could possibly have done? And back in the day, I used to always keep track of when teams pushed young pictures with their innings, and I never, I never agreed with it to just have no kind of governors on a young picture. I'm talking about twenty five and under in the major leagues, where Joe, you know, the stress is a lot different with the third deck of the stadium and everybody looking at you trying to get your feet on the ground. And back then, I thought, if you had a picture increase his workload by more than thirty percent, that was like being a guy who ran like a mile deciding one day you're going to run a marathon. Could you do it? Maybe you could do it, but man, you're gonna get hurts. It's not the way to go. You got to get there by staircasing it. Have your workload be increased incrementally. And Garrett and his dad, to their credit, they studied everything. They read everything. And I'm not saying I had the answer to everything, but apparently he read what I wrote. And Garrett's dad stuck to that. He would not let teams pitch Garrett too much as he was growing up. And I appreciated that, but I also thought, you know what, I actually stopped doing it recent years because teams really don't do that more. I think they've they've gotten a lot smarter about picture usage, and I think part of it is protecting young pictures as they develop. Twenty five and under man, you're still growing as a pitcher. So I think the and we're getting back to workload here, Joe, the organizations have gotten a lot smarter. Maybe they go a little too far in terms of protecting guys, but I'm talking in this case about young pictures. I think they've gotten a lot smarter about not just piling up endings indiscriminately just because they can, but keeping a keeping track of those things.

I'm going to tell you a story that you know, given the events of this week with Garrett Cole getting an MRI and his elbow the time. He may not be perfect, but I'll tell you it anyway. I was in the dais room before the Baseball Writers Awards dinner this year. Garrett Cole was there to pick up his cy Young Award, his first Say Young Award. It's amazing. He's been so good for so long. It took him this long to be the one who want it, but he did. And his dad came up to me in the dais room and he told me you are as much a part of this cy Young Award as anybody else. And obviously I was blown away like a cue. What could possibly have done? And back in the day, I used to always keep track of when teams pushed young pictures with their innings, and I never, I never agreed with it to just have no kind of governors on a young picture. I'm talking about twenty five and under in the major leagues, where Joe, you know, the stress is a lot different with the third deck of the stadium and everybody looking at you trying to get your feet on the ground. And back then, I thought, if you had a picture increase his workload by more than thirty percent, that was like being a guy who ran like a mile deciding one day you're going to run a marathon. Could you do it? Maybe you could do it, but man, you're gonna get hurts. It's not the way to go. You got to get there by staircasing it. Have your workload be increased incrementally. And Garrett and his dad, to their credit, they studied everything. They read everything. And I'm not saying I had the answer to everything, but apparently he read what I wrote. And Garrett's dad stuck to that. He would not let teams pitch Garrett too much as he was growing up. And I appreciated that, but I also thought, you know what, I actually stopped doing it recent years because teams really don't do that more. I think they've they've gotten a lot smarter about picture usage, and I think part of it is protecting young pictures as they develop. Twenty five and under man, you're still growing as a pitcher. So I think the and we're getting back to workload here, Joe, the organizations have gotten a lot smarter. Maybe they go a little too far in terms of protecting guys, but I'm talking in this case about young pictures. I think they've gotten a lot smarter about not just piling up endings indiscriminately just because they can, but keeping a keeping track of those things.

As you're saying that, I'm almost thinking out to myself out but possibly develop kind of a sliding scale based on I'm talking to minor leagues right now, guys with velocity versus guys that have this innate ability to pitch. In other words, the guys that are just velo guys chasing velocity, throw hard. That's where their value lies. Maybe that would be the guy at curtail a little bit more. But the guy that's a pitcher that stays within, like I don't know, two velocity with good sync, nice change up, drops his curve ball over first strike guy. Basically, I guess I'm just describing somebody knows how to pitch, as opposed to somebody that's just there to really try to elevate his fastball top of his zone, like you said, rip some sliders off and maybe maybe throw a change up. So maybe there's a sliding scaleing or developmentally speaking. And I'm just thinking to this as you're talking velocity, a little bit more careful, a little bit less workload, a picture somebody that really recreates his delivery, consistently, has a nice tempo about what he's doing. He's able to repeat mechanics, et cetera. Maybe that guy gets a little bit more latitude. I don't know, it might actually make sense.

As you're saying that, I'm almost thinking out to myself out but possibly develop kind of a sliding scale based on I'm talking to minor leagues right now, guys with velocity versus guys that have this innate ability to pitch. In other words, the guys that are just velo guys chasing velocity, throw hard. That's where their value lies. Maybe that would be the guy at curtail a little bit more. But the guy that's a pitcher that stays within, like I don't know, two velocity with good sync, nice change up, drops his curve ball over first strike guy. Basically, I guess I'm just describing somebody knows how to pitch, as opposed to somebody that's just there to really try to elevate his fastball top of his zone, like you said, rip some sliders off and maybe maybe throw a change up. So maybe there's a sliding scaleing or developmentally speaking. And I'm just thinking to this as you're talking velocity, a little bit more careful, a little bit less workload, a picture somebody that really recreates his delivery, consistently, has a nice tempo about what he's doing. He's able to repeat mechanics, et cetera. Maybe that guy gets a little bit more latitude. I don't know, it might actually make sense.

Yeah. I like what you just said there, Joe, because when I talk about governors on young pitchers, one thing I don't like. I think I can speak for you on this as well. I don't like any rule that applies to everybody. I mean, it's not a one size fits all. So what you're talking about is a lot of different variable in terms of stuff mechanics, body types huge for me in terms of how you're going to push a young guy. So you have a general idea of the increase in innings you want on a picture, but you cannot apply that equally to all pitchers. Are just too many types. So just for the sake of expediency, I would use a percentage. But I do agree it's important for teams that show some latitude in terms of how we can push some and others you're going to have to protect a little more. So I'm glad you said that it's really important that we don't treat everybody the same because they just aren't these human beings. And just to I want to give you an idea, Joe, getting back to workload of how much, especially starting pitching has changed because you mentioned how the idea now that bullpens have risen in promise, in prominence in terms of listen, how much they pitch more than ever, they get paid more than ever, you need, more than ever. We get it right. Just in the last ten seasons, so we're going from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty three, the percentage of quality starts, which is allowing three runs or less over six or more innings, has dropped from fifty four percent so the majority of starts where quality starts in twenty fourteen, that has dropped to thirty five percent, so one from one out of every two to one out of every three. The average number of innings pitched per start in ten years, We're not going back fifty years, folks and Mickey Lolich and wilver Wood. Innings pitched average start has gone from six innings down to five point one. The number of pitches that pitchers are allowed to throw on average has dropped from ninety six to eighty five, and the number of qualified pitchers. That means in a full season, the number of pitchers who threw one hundred and sixty two innings has dropped from eighty eight to forty four, literally in half in ten years. So you're talking about thirty teams and only forty four pitchers qualified by throwing at least one inning for every game and played. So that tells you how fast this game has changed. Joe in terms of really dialing back what we ask of starting pitchers now, I didn't even mention the fact that again they're pitching with more rest than ever before as well.

Yeah. I like what you just said there, Joe, because when I talk about governors on young pitchers, one thing I don't like. I think I can speak for you on this as well. I don't like any rule that applies to everybody. I mean, it's not a one size fits all. So what you're talking about is a lot of different variable in terms of stuff mechanics, body types huge for me in terms of how you're going to push a young guy. So you have a general idea of the increase in innings you want on a picture, but you cannot apply that equally to all pitchers. Are just too many types. So just for the sake of expediency, I would use a percentage. But I do agree it's important for teams that show some latitude in terms of how we can push some and others you're going to have to protect a little more. So I'm glad you said that it's really important that we don't treat everybody the same because they just aren't these human beings. And just to I want to give you an idea, Joe, getting back to workload of how much, especially starting pitching has changed because you mentioned how the idea now that bullpens have risen in promise, in prominence in terms of listen, how much they pitch more than ever, they get paid more than ever, you need, more than ever. We get it right. Just in the last ten seasons, so we're going from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty three, the percentage of quality starts, which is allowing three runs or less over six or more innings, has dropped from fifty four percent so the majority of starts where quality starts in twenty fourteen, that has dropped to thirty five percent, so one from one out of every two to one out of every three. The average number of innings pitched per start in ten years, We're not going back fifty years, folks and Mickey Lolich and wilver Wood. Innings pitched average start has gone from six innings down to five point one. The number of pitches that pitchers are allowed to throw on average has dropped from ninety six to eighty five, and the number of qualified pitchers. That means in a full season, the number of pitchers who threw one hundred and sixty two innings has dropped from eighty eight to forty four, literally in half in ten years. So you're talking about thirty teams and only forty four pitchers qualified by throwing at least one inning for every game and played. So that tells you how fast this game has changed. Joe in terms of really dialing back what we ask of starting pitchers now, I didn't even mention the fact that again they're pitching with more rest than ever before as well.

Change their manipulated right.

Change their manipulated right.

I mean, I just wrote down as you're saying all that if you wanted to chase quality starts, you'll get them, if you make that a priority within your minor leagues and your major league, you'll get them if that's what you set out to do. Because right now you're set out to have them pitch less, and they're being trained to pitch less. They're being trained to throw those eighty five pitches as of post in ninety six.

I mean, I just wrote down as you're saying all that if you wanted to chase quality starts, you'll get them, if you make that a priority within your minor leagues and your major league, you'll get them if that's what you set out to do. Because right now you're set out to have them pitch less, and they're being trained to pitch less. They're being trained to throw those eighty five pitches as of post in ninety six.

It's all about that.

It's all about that.

So part of it is we're not chasing the quality starts, we're chasing the velocity and relievers number one, number two.

So part of it is we're not chasing the quality starts, we're chasing the velocity and relievers number one, number two.

With that, I don't even know.

With that, I don't even know.

I would never speak to conspiracy theories whatever, but I mean part of that would be the greater number of quality starts and the more you look favorably upon starting pitchers. That's a that's a big number. That's where the money gets paid. So those start that really could suck up those innings and give you what you're looking for an annual basis. I don't even know that teams want three of those guys. I don't even know if they do or not. But there's definitely a sliding scale with that too. I believe whatever you chase, you'll get. Like now you're chased stolen bases last year by manipulating the rules, and all of a sudden you got stolen bases all of a sudden. Now bunts. I didn't like bunchs a couple years go. Now bunts are cool. Contact striking out is not as cool as it was five years ago. So now you're getting less of those and potentially more walks. Whatever you want to chase within this system industry of baseball, you get, you'll get it. The players are going to provide that for you. So that's part of it. I just don't think we want quality starts, and because of that, you're not going to get them.

I would never speak to conspiracy theories whatever, but I mean part of that would be the greater number of quality starts and the more you look favorably upon starting pitchers. That's a that's a big number. That's where the money gets paid. So those start that really could suck up those innings and give you what you're looking for an annual basis. I don't even know that teams want three of those guys. I don't even know if they do or not. But there's definitely a sliding scale with that too. I believe whatever you chase, you'll get. Like now you're chased stolen bases last year by manipulating the rules, and all of a sudden you got stolen bases all of a sudden. Now bunts. I didn't like bunchs a couple years go. Now bunts are cool. Contact striking out is not as cool as it was five years ago. So now you're getting less of those and potentially more walks. Whatever you want to chase within this system industry of baseball, you get, you'll get it. The players are going to provide that for you. So that's part of it. I just don't think we want quality starts, and because of that, you're not going to get them.

That's it.

That's it.

I mean, as you were right saying that, just one quick thought, the prior statement you're talking about everybody being the same, and how that's really a repulsive idea. In the Book of Joe, we talked about that with Bob Clear Bob Aloo as my mentor minor leagues.

I mean, as you were right saying that, just one quick thought, the prior statement you're talking about everybody being the same, and how that's really a repulsive idea. In the Book of Joe, we talked about that with Bob Clear Bob Aloo as my mentor minor leagues.

I was a young hitting.

I was a young hitting.

Coach my first year out and I'm in the outfield that cedar rapids working with the hitters and had them all doing the same drill, and I thought I was just trying to create a habit within them to have a first move that was indigenous to all great hitters. I thought, God, did he get upset with me? I came into the dugout after that. He ate me out in the dugout right there, and we got in a shout and match right there. I don't care it was in front of anybody at all, because that's the way we operate it.

Coach my first year out and I'm in the outfield that cedar rapids working with the hitters and had them all doing the same drill, and I thought I was just trying to create a habit within them to have a first move that was indigenous to all great hitters. I thought, God, did he get upset with me? I came into the dugout after that. He ate me out in the dugout right there, and we got in a shout and match right there. I don't care it was in front of anybody at all, because that's the way we operate it.

He can't clone everybody. What do you do?

He can't clone everybody. What do you do?

And it's Bablo, I'm not cloning. I'm just trying to get this one movement right. He would not have. He would not have any of that. Troy Percival. First time we worked him out in the bullpen at Geonauntry Park. He's there with us the field number one, left field side bullpen.

And it's Bablo, I'm not cloning. I'm just trying to get this one movement right. He would not have. He would not have any of that. Troy Percival. First time we worked him out in the bullpen at Geonauntry Park. He's there with us the field number one, left field side bullpen.

Don't tell him anything.

Don't tell him anything.

Just to have him wind up and throw the ball. Don't make him pretty. That's how his body in arm works. Don't clone him. So anyway, I mean, just to go back to your previous thought, that's number one, number two. Whatever we chase industry wise going to get it, because the players are going to provide it if you give them latitude and permission to do it.

Just to have him wind up and throw the ball. Don't make him pretty. That's how his body in arm works. Don't clone him. So anyway, I mean, just to go back to your previous thought, that's number one, number two. Whatever we chase industry wise going to get it, because the players are going to provide it if you give them latitude and permission to do it.

Yeah, I agreed, and I think you see that, and you saw it very sharply. From twenty sixteen to twenty seventeen, the number of qualified starting pitchers went from seventy four down to fifty eight. I mean, that was twenty two percent drop all of a sudden. That's huge. Why, as you said, Joe, the team's no longer valued that sixth inning. And there's a lot of reasons for that. You can start with the third time around metric. All these teams bought into the idea that I'd rather have a fresh armor at the bullpen facing a guy a third time than my starting pitcher. The idea that, as you mentioned here, teams are putting tremendous emphasis on swing and miss. So the pitchers out there are not trying to get out. He's trying to get people to swing and miss. And the irony of that is on offense, teams weren't really caring if guys swing a miss. I never understood that they chase swing a miss on defense, but on offense it was like, oh, that's okay. It didn't make any sense in terms of consistency. So anyway, the industry really did deemphasize the ability to take the ball deep into a game, and you see that as with pinch counts as well. I mean, a manager is going to get just absolutely destroyed if he lets a guy throw one hundred and twenty pitches in the game. These days, it doesn't matter if the guy's throwing well, it doesn't matter if he's still in his delivery. He's going to hear it for the media. He's going to hear it. So you know, to me, Joe, part of that is just the kind of the technology and all the information that teams were going on that's really was driving decisions.

Yeah, I agreed, and I think you see that, and you saw it very sharply. From twenty sixteen to twenty seventeen, the number of qualified starting pitchers went from seventy four down to fifty eight. I mean, that was twenty two percent drop all of a sudden. That's huge. Why, as you said, Joe, the team's no longer valued that sixth inning. And there's a lot of reasons for that. You can start with the third time around metric. All these teams bought into the idea that I'd rather have a fresh armor at the bullpen facing a guy a third time than my starting pitcher. The idea that, as you mentioned here, teams are putting tremendous emphasis on swing and miss. So the pitchers out there are not trying to get out. He's trying to get people to swing and miss. And the irony of that is on offense, teams weren't really caring if guys swing a miss. I never understood that they chase swing a miss on defense, but on offense it was like, oh, that's okay. It didn't make any sense in terms of consistency. So anyway, the industry really did deemphasize the ability to take the ball deep into a game, and you see that as with pinch counts as well. I mean, a manager is going to get just absolutely destroyed if he lets a guy throw one hundred and twenty pitches in the game. These days, it doesn't matter if the guy's throwing well, it doesn't matter if he's still in his delivery. He's going to hear it for the media. He's going to hear it. So you know, to me, Joe, part of that is just the kind of the technology and all the information that teams were going on that's really was driving decisions.

Yeah, and how many World Series did all these third time through advocates win?

Yeah, and how many World Series did all these third time through advocates win?

I mean, are not going the third time through advocates win.

I mean, are not going the third time through advocates win.

It's listen, you could subtract every analytical metric there is and throw out there and play baseball and you're going to get a really fun product and you're still going to get The Dodgers winning, regardless with metrics or not. Analytics are not because they have the best players. So regardless of the system in play with third time through or not, chase the strikeout or not, velocity or not permit stolen basis or not, the team with the best players, the best scouting and development group, the guys that get the best guys in the clubhouse are still going to win. But right now, the flavor of the month is to break our game down analytically and speaking of it as though it's the only way to do this, and like everything done in the past is superfluous. Why did it ever happen that way? And I cannot disagree with that more. We have now become a real baseball folk, the old school kind of guy, so have become the radicals and the new school the analytical group would become the conservatives. It's really flipped from back in like the early two thousands when analytical world was looking through the window in to the old baseball group, which was the conservative group, the group that had kind of pretty much in charge of how the game was run. And now it's completely opposite. So now I'm saying we because I do advocate for a lot of the old school tendencies, although I, like I said before, the defense, I would not want my defense to be put any other way except that of driven. But at the end of the day, man, that's regardless of the methods incorporated, whether they have technology or lack technology, at the end of the day, the group with the better baseball players is going to win. And I'll say this to the group with the better coaches, guys that could identify real baseball ability mechanics technique with their eyeballs in real time, that group has an advantage.

It's listen, you could subtract every analytical metric there is and throw out there and play baseball and you're going to get a really fun product and you're still going to get The Dodgers winning, regardless with metrics or not. Analytics are not because they have the best players. So regardless of the system in play with third time through or not, chase the strikeout or not, velocity or not permit stolen basis or not, the team with the best players, the best scouting and development group, the guys that get the best guys in the clubhouse are still going to win. But right now, the flavor of the month is to break our game down analytically and speaking of it as though it's the only way to do this, and like everything done in the past is superfluous. Why did it ever happen that way? And I cannot disagree with that more. We have now become a real baseball folk, the old school kind of guy, so have become the radicals and the new school the analytical group would become the conservatives. It's really flipped from back in like the early two thousands when analytical world was looking through the window in to the old baseball group, which was the conservative group, the group that had kind of pretty much in charge of how the game was run. And now it's completely opposite. So now I'm saying we because I do advocate for a lot of the old school tendencies, although I, like I said before, the defense, I would not want my defense to be put any other way except that of driven. But at the end of the day, man, that's regardless of the methods incorporated, whether they have technology or lack technology, at the end of the day, the group with the better baseball players is going to win. And I'll say this to the group with the better coaches, guys that could identify real baseball ability mechanics technique with their eyeballs in real time, that group has an advantage.

To Yeah, we talk about it all the time, Joe. It's the balance, right. You need the humanities as well as the science. And I think teams make mistakes when they don't honor the art of the game baseball as much as we love to kind of figure it out. The percentages and the data is amazing. We all love it, but you better honor the art artistic side of the game. Baseball is like great music, it's like great writing, it's like great drama. There's something there that can't be quantified, and you have to honor that. I'm not saying you go hole in on that and just go everything by gut, but you better have a good balance. And you mentioned the word mechanics, Joe, and I want to touch on that real quickly here, And because this is interesting to me, I can see guys now with poor mechanics who are breakdowns waiting to happen. And it's not a surprise when Johann Santana or Steven Strasburg or Mark Pryor or Jamison Tai on breakdown. You can see that there's obvious flaws in their deliveries. I can see young pitchers who go out there, you know they're just not going to hold up. There's certain ways, and you mentioned this, especially being a late loader, where you don't have the ball raise to the loading position before your front foot lands, you're going to break down. It's going to show up on your shoulder and eventually show up in your elbow. We know these things we can measure these things, and data actually can really help there too. My point is that there are fewer guys now who have poor mechanics. I think what's happened here and again I've talked with the people at ASMI about this. We've done a really good job identifying what good mechanics are. And in fact, I know the Cubs are one of the teams and many of them they have three D imaging in the course of a game where they can actually see where your body's getting outside of the delivery and measure kind of the stresses that you're putting on your arm by maybe lowering your arm slot or loading the ball late. Those things we can actually measure, we know that we see it. So people are going out there actually with better mechanics I think than ever before. But that's the rub. What's happening now is that it's more velocity the mechanics that's becoming That reason why guys are breaking down, because we've trained guys to throw more efficients efficiently, and that means they're throwing harder, and that means the stress on the ligaments is greater. You can train it as hard as you can. You can strengthen your body as much as you can. You can perfect your mechanics. What you can't do is make your ligament super strong. That's a limit to what you can do. What we're doing is we're stretching the length of how far we can push those ligaments because we have better mechanics, we have bigger muscles. That's all winding up with stress unligament. So actually, I think mechanics actually now has been figured out, I don't want to say mastered, but across the industry a much better job of figuring out who's got good mechanics, who's got bad mechanics, how to fix those things. But it does present now in basically putting more stress on the arm because you figure out a way to throw harder.

To Yeah, we talk about it all the time, Joe. It's the balance, right. You need the humanities as well as the science. And I think teams make mistakes when they don't honor the art of the game baseball as much as we love to kind of figure it out. The percentages and the data is amazing. We all love it, but you better honor the art artistic side of the game. Baseball is like great music, it's like great writing, it's like great drama. There's something there that can't be quantified, and you have to honor that. I'm not saying you go hole in on that and just go everything by gut, but you better have a good balance. And you mentioned the word mechanics, Joe, and I want to touch on that real quickly here, And because this is interesting to me, I can see guys now with poor mechanics who are breakdowns waiting to happen. And it's not a surprise when Johann Santana or Steven Strasburg or Mark Pryor or Jamison Tai on breakdown. You can see that there's obvious flaws in their deliveries. I can see young pitchers who go out there, you know they're just not going to hold up. There's certain ways, and you mentioned this, especially being a late loader, where you don't have the ball raise to the loading position before your front foot lands, you're going to break down. It's going to show up on your shoulder and eventually show up in your elbow. We know these things we can measure these things, and data actually can really help there too. My point is that there are fewer guys now who have poor mechanics. I think what's happened here and again I've talked with the people at ASMI about this. We've done a really good job identifying what good mechanics are. And in fact, I know the Cubs are one of the teams and many of them they have three D imaging in the course of a game where they can actually see where your body's getting outside of the delivery and measure kind of the stresses that you're putting on your arm by maybe lowering your arm slot or loading the ball late. Those things we can actually measure, we know that we see it. So people are going out there actually with better mechanics I think than ever before. But that's the rub. What's happening now is that it's more velocity the mechanics that's becoming That reason why guys are breaking down, because we've trained guys to throw more efficients efficiently, and that means they're throwing harder, and that means the stress on the ligaments is greater. You can train it as hard as you can. You can strengthen your body as much as you can. You can perfect your mechanics. What you can't do is make your ligament super strong. That's a limit to what you can do. What we're doing is we're stretching the length of how far we can push those ligaments because we have better mechanics, we have bigger muscles. That's all winding up with stress unligament. So actually, I think mechanics actually now has been figured out, I don't want to say mastered, but across the industry a much better job of figuring out who's got good mechanics, who's got bad mechanics, how to fix those things. But it does present now in basically putting more stress on the arm because you figure out a way to throw harder.

Well, you were just talking about it. We were I don't think we were actually recording at the time when you were talking about you wish you had the ability to listen to Ricky Fowler and his coach talk on the practice tee right, same thing. You'd love to hear a good hitting coach talk to his hitter in the around the batting cage and see what that's all about. When it comes down to mechanics. You'd love to listen to an outstanding pitching coach, and I had the privilege to do that work with a pitcher in a bullpen session for about fifteen, twenty or twenty five minutes. To me, that's really at the that's where it's all happening, because when the game occurs, and listen, agreed, I mean, you want to get all of this stuff down as properly as you can, regarding mechanics, all that stuff in your workouts, whatever. You want to get that away from the maddening crowd as you practice. But when it comes to the game, you want to eliminator stay away. And that's all I hear about talking about putting. The best putters see the hole, get over the ball, eyeball this thing up and hit the ball.