The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey there, welcome back. It's the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe, we got a lot to get into as the season, believe it or not, is starting to approach the halfway point. Crazy how fast the season goes. But here we are heading towards the All Star Game. A lot of topics I want to get into today. I want to talk about an epidemic that is claiming some of the stars of Major League Baseball. I want to talk about one of the most important regular season games coming up that Baseball has maybe ever staged. But I want to start with a real phenom. We throw that word around a lot, Joe, but when it comes to Paul Skeins and what he's doing on the mound right now, he is every bit as good as advertised, if not more so. Of course, the number one pick out of LSU for the Pittsburgh Pirates has made seven starts in the major leagues and he's just the second pitcher ever in those seven starts to go undefeated with fifty or more strikeouts. He's got fifty three and seven starts the other Masihiro Tanaka for the Yankees, And of course he had been pitching in Japan for six or seven years before he came over here, so maybe it's not quite analogous as a guy stepping out of college on a major league field and absolutely dominating. Here's what's interesting to me, Joe Paul Skiings can throw a ball one hundred miles an hour. His average fastball is over ninety nine miles an hour. It's just crazy fast for a starting pitcher, and yet he throws his fastball forty percent of the time. Now he does throw that splinker. It's a hybrid of a sinker and a split, and I guess you'd call it a off speed pitch because it is a splitter, as some of the tracking firms notice that that's what they call it. But it is a good hard firm ninety three, so you know that's the average fastball is ninety three ninety four. But forty fastballs forest seemers for a guy who throws one hundred. Joe, I mean, this is where the game is going, and this guy's got five pitches, like five legit pitches. You've got a good fastball. That point now is you don't need to throw it a lot. Tell me what you see about pitching and especially the high velocity guys. And it used to be established a fastball and work off of it, and now it's almost been inverted where it is quote unquote pitching backward.

The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey there, welcome back. It's the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe, we got a lot to get into as the season, believe it or not, is starting to approach the halfway point. Crazy how fast the season goes. But here we are heading towards the All Star Game. A lot of topics I want to get into today. I want to talk about an epidemic that is claiming some of the stars of Major League Baseball. I want to talk about one of the most important regular season games coming up that Baseball has maybe ever staged. But I want to start with a real phenom. We throw that word around a lot, Joe, but when it comes to Paul Skeins and what he's doing on the mound right now, he is every bit as good as advertised, if not more so. Of course, the number one pick out of LSU for the Pittsburgh Pirates has made seven starts in the major leagues and he's just the second pitcher ever in those seven starts to go undefeated with fifty or more strikeouts. He's got fifty three and seven starts the other Masihiro Tanaka for the Yankees, And of course he had been pitching in Japan for six or seven years before he came over here, so maybe it's not quite analogous as a guy stepping out of college on a major league field and absolutely dominating. Here's what's interesting to me, Joe Paul Skiings can throw a ball one hundred miles an hour. His average fastball is over ninety nine miles an hour. It's just crazy fast for a starting pitcher, and yet he throws his fastball forty percent of the time. Now he does throw that splinker. It's a hybrid of a sinker and a split, and I guess you'd call it a off speed pitch because it is a splitter, as some of the tracking firms notice that that's what they call it. But it is a good hard firm ninety three, so you know that's the average fastball is ninety three ninety four. But forty fastballs forest seemers for a guy who throws one hundred. Joe, I mean, this is where the game is going, and this guy's got five pitches, like five legit pitches. You've got a good fastball. That point now is you don't need to throw it a lot. Tell me what you see about pitching and especially the high velocity guys. And it used to be established a fastball and work off of it, and now it's almost been inverted where it is quote unquote pitching backward.

Yeah, first of all, you I mean that was going to be My observation is that he pitches so well. Those numbers are so good because of that splitter hybrid that he throws. That pitch to me, is his biggest swing and mispitch. That's the one that makes the hitters go back to the dugout shaking their heads. I watched a little bit of them yesterday and it just dives and it dives underneath the right handed hitters, and he could throw it for a strike. It almost seems like that's his best strike throwing pitch, his slider. He just really tries to dot the outside edge down. If he misses, he's okay with that and his fastball. Yeah, it's one hundred miles an hour, but it's just utilized on occasion to set everything else up. That's what I'm seeing with him, So I'm always apprehensive a little bit to use that splitter so often and having your fingers split so much. To throw that pitch always bothered me with young pitchers and the minor leagues. I had guys back in the day, and they can get a lot of guys out early with that pitch, but eventually it could break down the arm. Just I don't want to be like Doom and Gloom by any means, but to throw that pitch so often bothers me a little bit. Because he has such a great fastball. He's got the nice breaking ball too, so hopefully that doesn't play out. But I've always had concern about young pitchers, like older guys that have not been able to be successful. They found them up with a splitter and it keeps him in the big leagues, makes them successful. That's one thing. The young guy's doing that often. I've always had a little bit of concern, and I've seen slow motion. It looks like he doesn't split his fingers that much on that pitch, which would be good. But then again, I'm always a little bit concerned. Having said all that, we're talking about the proliferation of the breaking ball, but there's still some hitters out there that can't catch up with velocity and getting a high level of velocity. And I guess I heard about Alonso saying more velocity. I know Mike Trott had been seeing more velocity. So that comes down to scouting. That's why analytics really shines because they can pinpoint what a hitter is really not doing a whole lot of damage. With a guy that's not catching up with fastball, he throw him a breaking ball stripe for the typical slider batspeed kind of stuff that all of a sudden you're throwing the guy at bat fastball permitting him to catch up. And I've always had issues with that, So I think analytics permits to identify, Yes, go with the fastball right here, don't throw them a breaking ball, even it's definitely not a strike breaking ball because he's going to hit it. But specifically, I just would be a little concern with that over usage, only because of my history scene stuff like that. But I'm here to tay it's an outstanding pitch. I'm not denigrating that. It's just a long term situation for me.

Yeah, first of all, you I mean that was going to be My observation is that he pitches so well. Those numbers are so good because of that splitter hybrid that he throws. That pitch to me, is his biggest swing and mispitch. That's the one that makes the hitters go back to the dugout shaking their heads. I watched a little bit of them yesterday and it just dives and it dives underneath the right handed hitters, and he could throw it for a strike. It almost seems like that's his best strike throwing pitch, his slider. He just really tries to dot the outside edge down. If he misses, he's okay with that and his fastball. Yeah, it's one hundred miles an hour, but it's just utilized on occasion to set everything else up. That's what I'm seeing with him, So I'm always apprehensive a little bit to use that splitter so often and having your fingers split so much. To throw that pitch always bothered me with young pitchers and the minor leagues. I had guys back in the day, and they can get a lot of guys out early with that pitch, but eventually it could break down the arm. Just I don't want to be like Doom and Gloom by any means, but to throw that pitch so often bothers me a little bit. Because he has such a great fastball. He's got the nice breaking ball too, so hopefully that doesn't play out. But I've always had concern about young pitchers, like older guys that have not been able to be successful. They found them up with a splitter and it keeps him in the big leagues, makes them successful. That's one thing. The young guy's doing that often. I've always had a little bit of concern, and I've seen slow motion. It looks like he doesn't split his fingers that much on that pitch, which would be good. But then again, I'm always a little bit concerned. Having said all that, we're talking about the proliferation of the breaking ball, but there's still some hitters out there that can't catch up with velocity and getting a high level of velocity. And I guess I heard about Alonso saying more velocity. I know Mike Trott had been seeing more velocity. So that comes down to scouting. That's why analytics really shines because they can pinpoint what a hitter is really not doing a whole lot of damage. With a guy that's not catching up with fastball, he throw him a breaking ball stripe for the typical slider batspeed kind of stuff that all of a sudden you're throwing the guy at bat fastball permitting him to catch up. And I've always had issues with that, So I think analytics permits to identify, Yes, go with the fastball right here, don't throw them a breaking ball, even it's definitely not a strike breaking ball because he's going to hit it. But specifically, I just would be a little concern with that over usage, only because of my history scene stuff like that. But I'm here to tay it's an outstanding pitch. I'm not denigrating that. It's just a long term situation for me.

Yeah, that is a great pitch. And by the way, you made a great point here about how pitching now and it probably always has been in terms of scouting reports, but to me, it's more detailed than ever Joe and how to attack hitters and where their weakness weaknesses are and how to shape pitches to attack those weaknesses. And Paul Skeenes was doing that in college. You know, he had Wes Johnson as his pitching coach at LSU, and Wes had been with the Minnesota Twins for two and a half years and he really was developed as a pro pitcher in college. In terms of breaking hitters down. You think college baseball, it's basically it's pretty close to darn Triple A. But in terms of prep work, they go at it like major leaguers. I mean the technology as such, and there's so many college games that are videotaped and they have track man at LSU, so you know exactly the spin rates and the arcy and movement on your pitches. You know, he's been doing all those things, and I think because he has five pitches, he's able to do that in the big leagues and it's second nature to him now. He does a lot of homework. He's into that side of the game as most young pitchers are now. So he's taking advantage of that, there's no question about that. What's interesting to me I mentioned the under fifty percent fastball is if you go back as recently as twenty seventeen, talking about hard throwers pitchers who averaged ninety six and above, there was not a single starting pitcher who threw ninety six and above who didn't use his fastball at least fifty percent of the time. Last year, there were twelve starting pitchers who averaged ninety six and above. Those are elite throwers who are using their fastball less than half the time, and Skins is doing that now. But you have guys like Grayson Rodriguez, Shane McClanahan, Jesus Lozardo, Yordy Perez, Cole Reagan's Shoe Otani, who's a guy when he was healthy using his fastball less than half the time. So this is where the game is going. And I think it's mostly about attacking hitters now and the way that they can now shape secondary pitches to attack hitter swings, and Skeins is doing a great job of that. One more thing on Skins when we talk about his pitch mix, and I know everybody loves the one hundred miles an hour and we're fascinated when we get the triple digits and the velocity in the reguar gun. His fastball, other than being really fast, it's kind of average Joe. It really is. When you break it down and the way he throws. He does not throw like a pure four seen power guy, like a Garrett Cole. He's a short strider. He gets under the ball a little bit. His extension is not great. Where we are having a high perceived velocity where the fastball plays up, it does not have much run on it. We look at the vertical movement, his fastball actually has better horizontal movement than it has vertical movement. So to me, he's not a guy who's going to live with that fastball as a big swing and miss pitch. So I think exactly the way he's using it now Joe is the right way, and that it's not his primary pitch because to me, it's just not good enough. It's not here it is hit it. But if you get deep into account and now you're expecting that split and that fastball hold is playing at the bottom of the zone, as we saw against Cincinnati on Monday night, hitters are going to take it for strike three. It's almost pitching backwards for a guy who throws a hundred.

Yeah, that is a great pitch. And by the way, you made a great point here about how pitching now and it probably always has been in terms of scouting reports, but to me, it's more detailed than ever Joe and how to attack hitters and where their weakness weaknesses are and how to shape pitches to attack those weaknesses. And Paul Skeenes was doing that in college. You know, he had Wes Johnson as his pitching coach at LSU, and Wes had been with the Minnesota Twins for two and a half years and he really was developed as a pro pitcher in college. In terms of breaking hitters down. You think college baseball, it's basically it's pretty close to darn Triple A. But in terms of prep work, they go at it like major leaguers. I mean the technology as such, and there's so many college games that are videotaped and they have track man at LSU, so you know exactly the spin rates and the arcy and movement on your pitches. You know, he's been doing all those things, and I think because he has five pitches, he's able to do that in the big leagues and it's second nature to him now. He does a lot of homework. He's into that side of the game as most young pitchers are now. So he's taking advantage of that, there's no question about that. What's interesting to me I mentioned the under fifty percent fastball is if you go back as recently as twenty seventeen, talking about hard throwers pitchers who averaged ninety six and above, there was not a single starting pitcher who threw ninety six and above who didn't use his fastball at least fifty percent of the time. Last year, there were twelve starting pitchers who averaged ninety six and above. Those are elite throwers who are using their fastball less than half the time, and Skins is doing that now. But you have guys like Grayson Rodriguez, Shane McClanahan, Jesus Lozardo, Yordy Perez, Cole Reagan's Shoe Otani, who's a guy when he was healthy using his fastball less than half the time. So this is where the game is going. And I think it's mostly about attacking hitters now and the way that they can now shape secondary pitches to attack hitter swings, and Skeins is doing a great job of that. One more thing on Skins when we talk about his pitch mix, and I know everybody loves the one hundred miles an hour and we're fascinated when we get the triple digits and the velocity in the reguar gun. His fastball, other than being really fast, it's kind of average Joe. It really is. When you break it down and the way he throws. He does not throw like a pure four seen power guy, like a Garrett Cole. He's a short strider. He gets under the ball a little bit. His extension is not great. Where we are having a high perceived velocity where the fastball plays up, it does not have much run on it. We look at the vertical movement, his fastball actually has better horizontal movement than it has vertical movement. So to me, he's not a guy who's going to live with that fastball as a big swing and miss pitch. So I think exactly the way he's using it now Joe is the right way, and that it's not his primary pitch because to me, it's just not good enough. It's not here it is hit it. But if you get deep into account and now you're expecting that split and that fastball hold is playing at the bottom of the zone, as we saw against Cincinnati on Monday night, hitters are going to take it for strike three. It's almost pitching backwards for a guy who throws a hundred.

It's the threat of throwing a hundred that makes the other pitches really good too, So you have to be set mentally, regardless of all the other peripheral numbers they're regarding squad length, et cetera. One hundred is one hundred, so you still have to get set up mentally for that. And that really means like hitter's got to get loaded and ready early, and with that that could also make the split and this slider even a more effective pitch. So all these things conspire to make his other pitches even better. I'm just curious though, and again regarding what you just said about this fastball and all the peripheries about it. Still I mean, it's one hundred is one hundred. Now, Listen, I've been around guys that throw that hard too, that something get turned around a lot more often than you would think, So there's something to that. Seeing the ball easily up in his own but not up and enough that he gets over the bat, no real ride to the pitch, that kind of stuff. But nevertheless, I one hundred is one hundred, So I think that regardless I mean, but his his flitter has got that great of a movement. But the fact that you got to be set up mentally for that heart of a fastball is working in his favorite Now, let's go into the season right now, and as he gets through these teams the second time around, see if there's any adjustments to be made, because it's I've always was concerned with young pitchers relying on breaking ball primarily to get guys out and how that eventually has hitters see them more often, how that plays. So listen, He's a fabulous talent, great stuff, strong looking kid, seems like a great guy. But I just want to see what happens the next time through.

It's the threat of throwing a hundred that makes the other pitches really good too, So you have to be set mentally, regardless of all the other peripheral numbers they're regarding squad length, et cetera. One hundred is one hundred, so you still have to get set up mentally for that. And that really means like hitter's got to get loaded and ready early, and with that that could also make the split and this slider even a more effective pitch. So all these things conspire to make his other pitches even better. I'm just curious though, and again regarding what you just said about this fastball and all the peripheries about it. Still I mean, it's one hundred is one hundred. Now, Listen, I've been around guys that throw that hard too, that something get turned around a lot more often than you would think, So there's something to that. Seeing the ball easily up in his own but not up and enough that he gets over the bat, no real ride to the pitch, that kind of stuff. But nevertheless, I one hundred is one hundred, So I think that regardless I mean, but his his flitter has got that great of a movement. But the fact that you got to be set up mentally for that heart of a fastball is working in his favorite Now, let's go into the season right now, and as he gets through these teams the second time around, see if there's any adjustments to be made, because it's I've always was concerned with young pitchers relying on breaking ball primarily to get guys out and how that eventually has hitters see them more often, how that plays. So listen, He's a fabulous talent, great stuff, strong looking kid, seems like a great guy. But I just want to see what happens the next time through.

Yeah, I think what's impressive about him though, Joe is and I agree with you, the test is as it always is with young players second time around, right, and I think I've what I've seen so far this early on seven starts. He does use five pitches, so I think he has multiple ways to get hitters out. If something's not working, he can go somewhere else. You make a great point about the velocity, even though the properties on the fastball are not like eye popping, but the fact that a hitter has to gear up for one hundred. You must respect that velocity, and you'll have guys commit early, and that's why you're going to get some misses on some of the off speed stuff. But you look at the way he releases a baseball, and you know he's not totally behind the baseball. The spin when it comes off his hand on a clock, it's about between one and two, like one five. You know, he's not between twelve and one. So that's why he's going to have more horizontal than vertical movement on that fastball. But again, it's one hundred miles an hour. He's built like a brick house, you know. I think he's built to pitch deep in the games.

Yeah, I think what's impressive about him though, Joe is and I agree with you, the test is as it always is with young players second time around, right, and I think I've what I've seen so far this early on seven starts. He does use five pitches, so I think he has multiple ways to get hitters out. If something's not working, he can go somewhere else. You make a great point about the velocity, even though the properties on the fastball are not like eye popping, but the fact that a hitter has to gear up for one hundred. You must respect that velocity, and you'll have guys commit early, and that's why you're going to get some misses on some of the off speed stuff. But you look at the way he releases a baseball, and you know he's not totally behind the baseball. The spin when it comes off his hand on a clock, it's about between one and two, like one five. You know, he's not between twelve and one. So that's why he's going to have more horizontal than vertical movement on that fastball. But again, it's one hundred miles an hour. He's built like a brick house, you know. I think he's built to pitch deep in the games.

Now.

Now.

Of course the Pirates aren't letting him do that. He's averaging ninety four pitches per start. One more thing on the v low. I'd like to get your take on this, Joe. Looking at his fastball by innings. Okay, his highest velocity is in the first inning. He averages over one hundred in the first inning, and with each inning it goes down slightly, so when he gets to the fifth or sixth inning, he's down to ninety eight. That would concern me only from this point of view. You know, I've talked with biomechanical people who say the best way to stay healthy if you're a hard thrower is to modulate your velocity. It's something that Justin Verlander learned how to do. I mean, he was a guy when he first came up. He wanted to throw every pitch one hundred and he realized, you know, I got to save some of this and have something in my pocket when there's a run around second base where there's two strikes in the batter. Garrett Cole, if you look at his velocity when he's got two strikes and throws a four seamer, it's going to be his A plus fastball. He's not throwing that all the time. And I think, just for a better rm health, I would like to see his fastball velocity modulate so that it's not going down. And it's not a lot, don't get me wrong, but it's telling me that he's coming out of the gates, you know, firing basically as hard as he can. When you see over one hundred in the first inning.

Of course the Pirates aren't letting him do that. He's averaging ninety four pitches per start. One more thing on the v low. I'd like to get your take on this, Joe. Looking at his fastball by innings. Okay, his highest velocity is in the first inning. He averages over one hundred in the first inning, and with each inning it goes down slightly, so when he gets to the fifth or sixth inning, he's down to ninety eight. That would concern me only from this point of view. You know, I've talked with biomechanical people who say the best way to stay healthy if you're a hard thrower is to modulate your velocity. It's something that Justin Verlander learned how to do. I mean, he was a guy when he first came up. He wanted to throw every pitch one hundred and he realized, you know, I got to save some of this and have something in my pocket when there's a run around second base where there's two strikes in the batter. Garrett Cole, if you look at his velocity when he's got two strikes and throws a four seamer, it's going to be his A plus fastball. He's not throwing that all the time. And I think, just for a better rm health, I would like to see his fastball velocity modulate so that it's not going down. And it's not a lot, don't get me wrong, but it's telling me that he's coming out of the gates, you know, firing basically as hard as he can. When you see over one hundred in the first inning.

Yeah, and as he moves this further along, it could be like your explanation's perfect. The big thing is to learn how to locate less than one hundred. I mean ninety five, ninety six to ninety seven is wonderful located well. So I don't know exactly what the game plan is for fastball and fastball location for him, and if he's able to do that or not. He seems to have really good command and watching him, it's like I'm saying, the command of the split to me is really uncanny, and that's like his go to pitch. I believe that's the one when he needs a strike because one of two things are going to happen. He's gonna throw it for a strike or it's going to turn it start out as a strike and become a ball and the guy's going to swing at it. So that's a go to strike pitch. It's a seven iron. He can hit that anytime he wants, so as he moves it forward, I'm curious to see how that plays out. I'd like to see that too. I think that's to throw more fastballs and fastballs located where he wants them to be located. It's going to really, I think, permit him that third time three you're talking about are deeper into the game. And be very effective with it, because I think the hitters, if they have to respect that a little bit more, he can take some pressure off of that splitter slider situation. And I know he does have a variety of different pitches, but to me, if you don't have a fastball that you could command, eventually that other stuff gets pounded a little bit as hitters get more onto your methods.

Yeah, and as he moves this further along, it could be like your explanation's perfect. The big thing is to learn how to locate less than one hundred. I mean ninety five, ninety six to ninety seven is wonderful located well. So I don't know exactly what the game plan is for fastball and fastball location for him, and if he's able to do that or not. He seems to have really good command and watching him, it's like I'm saying, the command of the split to me is really uncanny, and that's like his go to pitch. I believe that's the one when he needs a strike because one of two things are going to happen. He's gonna throw it for a strike or it's going to turn it start out as a strike and become a ball and the guy's going to swing at it. So that's a go to strike pitch. It's a seven iron. He can hit that anytime he wants, so as he moves it forward, I'm curious to see how that plays out. I'd like to see that too. I think that's to throw more fastballs and fastballs located where he wants them to be located. It's going to really, I think, permit him that third time three you're talking about are deeper into the game. And be very effective with it, because I think the hitters, if they have to respect that a little bit more, he can take some pressure off of that splitter slider situation. And I know he does have a variety of different pitches, but to me, if you don't have a fastball that you could command, eventually that other stuff gets pounded a little bit as hitters get more onto your methods.

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because one of the things I'm most impressed about with Paul Skeins is his command. You know, he is a guy obviously throwing one hundred miles an hour, and we're not used to guys spotting it up. But you know, for a guy who does throw this many pitches and has velocity, to me, I'm super impressed that just about everything that comes out of his hand is forcing a swing decision by the hitter. Everything is. He's enough around the zone that, you know, those waste pitches where he just lose it and the hitter just dismisses it right out of the hand. He throws very few of those. Joe. For a big guy with great power, he's almost like a finesse pitcher who can throw a hundred the way he's just around the edges of the plate. He's been throwing sixty eight percent strikes. I mean, he does get a lot of foul balls because again, the fastball properties to me is not so much swing and miss as it is, you know, getting weaker contact, but a lot of foul balls. So his pitch counts are going to get up. But I'm telling you, I'm just really impressed by the way this guy can pitch. I thought he was a velocity guy. He's way more than that. And one more thing, Joe, the Pirates are now six and one when he takes the ball, and you know what it's like as a manager. You've got somebody sitting there lined up in a series, and whether you're going good or you're going bad, you're thinking, I've got schemes going tomorrow. He's going to give me six innings and we're likely to win the game. I mean, what a luxury that is for Derek Shelton Pittsburgh.

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because one of the things I'm most impressed about with Paul Skeins is his command. You know, he is a guy obviously throwing one hundred miles an hour, and we're not used to guys spotting it up. But you know, for a guy who does throw this many pitches and has velocity, to me, I'm super impressed that just about everything that comes out of his hand is forcing a swing decision by the hitter. Everything is. He's enough around the zone that, you know, those waste pitches where he just lose it and the hitter just dismisses it right out of the hand. He throws very few of those. Joe. For a big guy with great power, he's almost like a finesse pitcher who can throw a hundred the way he's just around the edges of the plate. He's been throwing sixty eight percent strikes. I mean, he does get a lot of foul balls because again, the fastball properties to me is not so much swing and miss as it is, you know, getting weaker contact, but a lot of foul balls. So his pitch counts are going to get up. But I'm telling you, I'm just really impressed by the way this guy can pitch. I thought he was a velocity guy. He's way more than that. And one more thing, Joe, the Pirates are now six and one when he takes the ball, and you know what it's like as a manager. You've got somebody sitting there lined up in a series, and whether you're going good or you're going bad, you're thinking, I've got schemes going tomorrow. He's going to give me six innings and we're likely to win the game. I mean, what a luxury that is for Derek Shelton Pittsburgh.

It is one question, do you have like the percentage of fastball strikes that he throws, like actually in the zone, because I just think that part of what we're seeing is I don't know how comfortable he is it throwing the fastball for a strike. You've ever watched his arm behind him, It really unfolds, it unravels. He's got this real funky thing behind him, which could be both good and bad. Eventually, I think that all leads to it.

It is one question, do you have like the percentage of fastball strikes that he throws, like actually in the zone, because I just think that part of what we're seeing is I don't know how comfortable he is it throwing the fastball for a strike. You've ever watched his arm behind him, It really unfolds, it unravels. He's got this real funky thing behind him, which could be both good and bad. Eventually, I think that all leads to it.

Yeah, yeah, just to stop you there, Joe, you're absolutely right. He does pick his elbow up higher than the shoulder.

Yeah, yeah, just to stop you there, Joe, you're absolutely right. He does pick his elbow up higher than the shoulder.

Yep.

Yep.

So most pitchers, you want to say, who are repeaters in terms of year after here taking the ball, they'll lift the ball. If that if you take the ball out of the glove first and it comes down, then you bring the ball up, they rotate the arm up. He actually picks the ball up with his elbow and then rotates the hand up. So there's a little bit of lateness there that he has to be careful about. Sorry up to you there, but that was a great observation.

So most pitchers, you want to say, who are repeaters in terms of year after here taking the ball, they'll lift the ball. If that if you take the ball out of the glove first and it comes down, then you bring the ball up, they rotate the arm up. He actually picks the ball up with his elbow and then rotates the hand up. So there's a little bit of lateness there that he has to be careful about. Sorry up to you there, but that was a great observation.

Yet, that's the thing from the beginning and watching him listen. The kid's great, he's got great talent. There's just certain things that he does that kind of bothers me from experience. I'd love to see like Todd Van remember Van Poppole.

Yet, that's the thing from the beginning and watching him listen. The kid's great, he's got great talent. There's just certain things that he does that kind of bothers me from experience. I'd love to see like Todd Van remember Van Poppole.

Yes, he had a.

Yes, he had a.

Little funk with his armstroke too. But he remember an instructional league. I don't remember whatever year he was with Oakland. We're going to play that day at Scottsdale Community College versus Van poppol So I had all my boys jacked up. I had this small ball machine out thrown from my thirty three feet at it all jacked up the big numbers to get on time against his fastball. We go over to Scottsdale and they pulled. We didn't even pitch that day. There's a guy that was supposed to have this illustrious, great career based on velocity and it didn't play. But part of it was the armstroke was kind of weird. I thought funky a little bit. So just moving it forward again. This is just my scouting brain working right now. This is observation stuff going on right now. The way is Arman furls and you described it about the elbow up, Hie. That's just a little little concern. Although there's so many players that have been great in our game and in other games that have like indigenous qualities to what they do a little bit different than everybody else. That makes them great, and maybe that's what's going to make him great. But those are the kind of things that when I watch him, I'm always curious about.

Little funk with his armstroke too. But he remember an instructional league. I don't remember whatever year he was with Oakland. We're going to play that day at Scottsdale Community College versus Van poppol So I had all my boys jacked up. I had this small ball machine out thrown from my thirty three feet at it all jacked up the big numbers to get on time against his fastball. We go over to Scottsdale and they pulled. We didn't even pitch that day. There's a guy that was supposed to have this illustrious, great career based on velocity and it didn't play. But part of it was the armstroke was kind of weird. I thought funky a little bit. So just moving it forward again. This is just my scouting brain working right now. This is observation stuff going on right now. The way is Arman furls and you described it about the elbow up, Hie. That's just a little little concern. Although there's so many players that have been great in our game and in other games that have like indigenous qualities to what they do a little bit different than everybody else. That makes them great, and maybe that's what's going to make him great. But those are the kind of things that when I watch him, I'm always curious about.

Yeah, and listen, I'm not saying he's in this category, but both Steven Strasburg and Mark Pryor were late loaders where they're and Pryor was hailed as a guy with perfect mechanics coming out of USC and that was not the case. We know more about deliveries and what are red flags, but I don't think Paul Skeys is as late as Steven Strasburg, but he does have some of those properties early in the arms swing. I like this guy a lot. And by the way, Joe, I looked up the question you had about fastballs in the zone. He throws his fastball in the zone sixty five percent of the time.

Yeah, and listen, I'm not saying he's in this category, but both Steven Strasburg and Mark Pryor were late loaders where they're and Pryor was hailed as a guy with perfect mechanics coming out of USC and that was not the case. We know more about deliveries and what are red flags, but I don't think Paul Skeys is as late as Steven Strasburg, but he does have some of those properties early in the arms swing. I like this guy a lot. And by the way, Joe, I looked up the question you had about fastballs in the zone. He throws his fastball in the zone sixty five percent of the time.

That's awesome. That's really good. If he's able to do that, then that's that's an absolute positive.

That's awesome. That's really good. If he's able to do that, then that's that's an absolute positive.

What he's got. To me, he's got great separation between his torso and his hips, and guys who do that generally are going to be command guys. And he does that at a super high speed. It's a little bit to me reminiscent of Tim Linsingam. It's a different delivery. But you looked at Lensingham and the way he had the separation between the rotation of the torso and the hips was almost perfect. And there was a lot going on in his delivery, but his timing was exceptional, and I see that with Paul Skeins. I think he is a command guy with power. And I got to tell you, Joe, I know he's only made seven starts. I want to see this guy at the All Star Game. Listen, He's going to have a couple of stars before we get there anyway, But I think he's pitching his way onto the team. I mean, besides just the fan draw, the numbers he's putting up to me are worthy of All Star consideration.

What he's got. To me, he's got great separation between his torso and his hips, and guys who do that generally are going to be command guys. And he does that at a super high speed. It's a little bit to me reminiscent of Tim Linsingam. It's a different delivery. But you looked at Lensingham and the way he had the separation between the rotation of the torso and the hips was almost perfect. And there was a lot going on in his delivery, but his timing was exceptional, and I see that with Paul Skeins. I think he is a command guy with power. And I got to tell you, Joe, I know he's only made seven starts. I want to see this guy at the All Star Game. Listen, He's going to have a couple of stars before we get there anyway, But I think he's pitching his way onto the team. I mean, besides just the fan draw, the numbers he's putting up to me are worthy of All Star consideration.

I agreed. I totally agree with that part of the All Star Game should be the fact that it basically no longer counts again, right, it should be a spectacle for the fans and you should want to see the best. And I don't think the lack of experience should hold him back either. He's different, could be phenomenal actually by the end of the season in the years to come. So yes, I agree he's a draw and the fans would want to see this guy. Yes.

I agreed. I totally agree with that part of the All Star Game should be the fact that it basically no longer counts again, right, it should be a spectacle for the fans and you should want to see the best. And I don't think the lack of experience should hold him back either. He's different, could be phenomenal actually by the end of the season in the years to come. So yes, I agree he's a draw and the fans would want to see this guy. Yes.

Yeah. One last thing on Paul Skeens, and I want your take from a manager's perspective, Joe, because I was really impressed Monday night against Cincinnati, two runners on base, ninety six pitch of the game, He's in a jam for the third time, third time around the lineup as well, and he pulls one hundred out of his pocket, gets a little dribbler in front of the plate from Tyler Stevenson. I saw the competitiveness. I saw the fact that there was still enough in the tank to complete a pitch and execute a pitch when you're you know, getting towards the end of the night with runners on base. The question is now, as Pittsburgh now, which is still in the hit thick of things in terms of at least a division, but certainly the wildcard race. You know, there's things I like about that Pirates team, and you're Derek Shelton now, and you've got this, this guy who can just dominate. When do you kind of let him run? When do you take the governors off and say this is why he's here. He's a kid who's you know, he's big guy in a college World Series. He threw one hundred and twenty pitches in the game, I know we want to be super careful. He's only pitched on either five days or six days of rest, and I'm sure that probably won't change where they pitch him on four days. By the way, four days is now short rest in the major leagues. But if you're Derek Shelton, then this Pittsburgh team, which I think they're capable of hanging in there, Joe and being around the edges of the race here getting a playoff spot. When do you just say, Okay, I trust this guy to throw one hundred and ten, one hundred and fifteen pitches. Is that going to happen or or not?

Yeah. One last thing on Paul Skeens, and I want your take from a manager's perspective, Joe, because I was really impressed Monday night against Cincinnati, two runners on base, ninety six pitch of the game, He's in a jam for the third time, third time around the lineup as well, and he pulls one hundred out of his pocket, gets a little dribbler in front of the plate from Tyler Stevenson. I saw the competitiveness. I saw the fact that there was still enough in the tank to complete a pitch and execute a pitch when you're you know, getting towards the end of the night with runners on base. The question is now, as Pittsburgh now, which is still in the hit thick of things in terms of at least a division, but certainly the wildcard race. You know, there's things I like about that Pirates team, and you're Derek Shelton now, and you've got this, this guy who can just dominate. When do you kind of let him run? When do you take the governors off and say this is why he's here. He's a kid who's you know, he's big guy in a college World Series. He threw one hundred and twenty pitches in the game, I know we want to be super careful. He's only pitched on either five days or six days of rest, and I'm sure that probably won't change where they pitch him on four days. By the way, four days is now short rest in the major leagues. But if you're Derek Shelton, then this Pittsburgh team, which I think they're capable of hanging in there, Joe and being around the edges of the race here getting a playoff spot. When do you just say, Okay, I trust this guy to throw one hundred and ten, one hundred and fifteen pitches. Is that going to happen or or not?

Well, I would keep doing what they're doing right now, quite frankly, the extra month of a season, and then a little bit further regarding playoffs, it's different. He'll never he's never experienced anything like this, so I would still be careful for me. Post All Star break, something we do with the Rays. I can't remember exactly the year it was, but we threw Alex Cobbyn and I think we've talked about this for a six man as we had that he was that. I mean, we felt really comfortable Alex being the sixth guy within our rotation. I like the idea of post all Star break. If you have the right kind of pitcher, somebody you like, you throw them in as a six guy, maybe for once twice around the rotation post all Star break, to give these guys even a little bit more ad at rest. And then I'd say right around August would be when I would possibly open it up a little bit more. I found that to be a really effective thing that we did with the Ray, So I would play it as is for now, because said post All Star break, if you have that guy, throw them in there, and here comes August, and then by that point, if everything seems to be in good order, you feel good about innings, and everybody talks about innings pitched. Also, I like number of pitches thrown. I'm a big number of pitches thrown guy too. That really tells me a lot about the pitcher and how he's able to proceed the next time through some five innings with you know, if he's throwing six innings and eighty some pitches and you take them up because of eighty pitches, that's one thing. If you throw six in one hundred and ten, that's somethingmpletely different. And I would look at the next start based more on how many pitches the guy through the last time as opposed to the number of innings that he threw the previous time out. I've always been into that number of pitches thrown. I've always do the math during the game. You always love that fifteen pitches per inning is always the perfect mark for me. I used to start taking number of pitches per game and average them Mountain try to figure out the optimal number for each particular starting pitcher that I had, so as it moves forward, I would try to stay away from the innings as much, really focus on pitches that he's thrown per game and really try to parcel it out from there and find out how well he pitches after the time, after he's thrown maybe more pitches than he had previously, or with any kind of consistency. That's the interesting thing to me. Figure that part out, and then you'll know how to treat them the rest of the season.

Well, I would keep doing what they're doing right now, quite frankly, the extra month of a season, and then a little bit further regarding playoffs, it's different. He'll never he's never experienced anything like this, so I would still be careful for me. Post All Star break, something we do with the Rays. I can't remember exactly the year it was, but we threw Alex Cobbyn and I think we've talked about this for a six man as we had that he was that. I mean, we felt really comfortable Alex being the sixth guy within our rotation. I like the idea of post all Star break. If you have the right kind of pitcher, somebody you like, you throw them in as a six guy, maybe for once twice around the rotation post all Star break, to give these guys even a little bit more ad at rest. And then I'd say right around August would be when I would possibly open it up a little bit more. I found that to be a really effective thing that we did with the Ray, So I would play it as is for now, because said post All Star break, if you have that guy, throw them in there, and here comes August, and then by that point, if everything seems to be in good order, you feel good about innings, and everybody talks about innings pitched. Also, I like number of pitches thrown. I'm a big number of pitches thrown guy too. That really tells me a lot about the pitcher and how he's able to proceed the next time through some five innings with you know, if he's throwing six innings and eighty some pitches and you take them up because of eighty pitches, that's one thing. If you throw six in one hundred and ten, that's somethingmpletely different. And I would look at the next start based more on how many pitches the guy through the last time as opposed to the number of innings that he threw the previous time out. I've always been into that number of pitches thrown. I've always do the math during the game. You always love that fifteen pitches per inning is always the perfect mark for me. I used to start taking number of pitches per game and average them Mountain try to figure out the optimal number for each particular starting pitcher that I had, so as it moves forward, I would try to stay away from the innings as much, really focus on pitches that he's thrown per game and really try to parcel it out from there and find out how well he pitches after the time, after he's thrown maybe more pitches than he had previously, or with any kind of consistency. That's the interesting thing to me. Figure that part out, and then you'll know how to treat them the rest of the season.

Well, with all the governors we have on starting pitchers, now we've lost the star quality of starting pitchers, and Paul Skins is bringing it back. So I hope he keeps taking the ball every day fifth or sixth day. He's going to be super competitive and successful. There's no question about it. It's just a matter of health. And I think he is bringing back some of that Marquis value of what it means, like Paul Skeens is pitching tonight, I'm going to the game, and so far early in his career, Paul Skeens is putting another ten thousand people in the park at panc Park when he pitches. Their attendance is up fifty percent when he takes the ball. Now, maybe they've had some giveaways that boost that number, but there's no question he is a drawing card and I can't wait to see how it plays out for the rest of this season because I think what you're seeing here is real everything about him. He's a polished, pure pitcher, not just a velocity guy. Hey, when we get back, I mentioned something about an epidemic and this does not involve pitchers. We've talked a lot about pitcher injuries. What is going on with hitters. There's something that's concerning me that's happening that's taking some of the best players off the field. We will talk about that right after this. Well, Joe, we were talking about the All Star Game and Paul Skeins, we hope will get there. I think everybody wants to see him on the field there throwing one hundred plus. But we will not be seeing Mokei Betts at the All Star Game. That's because he was hit by a pitch. He's out for six to eight weeks. And when you talk about getting hit by a pitch, you go back to the start of the live ball era. It's nineteen twenty, so we're talking about more than one hundred and four years. And if I asked you the five most dangerous years for a hitter, in other words, the rate of pitcher's hitting batteries with pitches, I'll give you those five years. Twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four. You see a pattern there. I mean, it's just amazing what what's going on here, and we're talking about batter is just can't get out of the way with what's happening here in the game. And unfortunately, this is what happens. Mookie Betts is having an MVP type of season. Now he's off the field for six to eight weeks because Dan Altavila threw a fastball lost at arm side, ran up, smacked him on the hand and one of the best drawing cards in the game. One of the great players in the game is on the shelf for a month and a half. What do you see going on, Joe.

Well, with all the governors we have on starting pitchers, now we've lost the star quality of starting pitchers, and Paul Skins is bringing it back. So I hope he keeps taking the ball every day fifth or sixth day. He's going to be super competitive and successful. There's no question about it. It's just a matter of health. And I think he is bringing back some of that Marquis value of what it means, like Paul Skeens is pitching tonight, I'm going to the game, and so far early in his career, Paul Skeens is putting another ten thousand people in the park at panc Park when he pitches. Their attendance is up fifty percent when he takes the ball. Now, maybe they've had some giveaways that boost that number, but there's no question he is a drawing card and I can't wait to see how it plays out for the rest of this season because I think what you're seeing here is real everything about him. He's a polished, pure pitcher, not just a velocity guy. Hey, when we get back, I mentioned something about an epidemic and this does not involve pitchers. We've talked a lot about pitcher injuries. What is going on with hitters. There's something that's concerning me that's happening that's taking some of the best players off the field. We will talk about that right after this. Well, Joe, we were talking about the All Star Game and Paul Skeins, we hope will get there. I think everybody wants to see him on the field there throwing one hundred plus. But we will not be seeing Mokei Betts at the All Star Game. That's because he was hit by a pitch. He's out for six to eight weeks. And when you talk about getting hit by a pitch, you go back to the start of the live ball era. It's nineteen twenty, so we're talking about more than one hundred and four years. And if I asked you the five most dangerous years for a hitter, in other words, the rate of pitcher's hitting batteries with pitches, I'll give you those five years. Twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four. You see a pattern there. I mean, it's just amazing what what's going on here, and we're talking about batter is just can't get out of the way with what's happening here in the game. And unfortunately, this is what happens. Mookie Betts is having an MVP type of season. Now he's off the field for six to eight weeks because Dan Altavila threw a fastball lost at arm side, ran up, smacked him on the hand and one of the best drawing cards in the game. One of the great players in the game is on the shelf for a month and a half. What do you see going on, Joe.

Well, there's two things that happened with that. The hitter's either diving in and or the pitchers really trying to elevate in. I'm elevated in is a really good pitch if you could perform it. There's a slot up there on every guy. It's rare that anybody handles elevation in. Well, that's a rare hitter, and if he does, it's probably just blocked out hit softly the other way. So again, this could come down to analytics and where to pitch certain hitters. I watch Mokie, but I don't know him well enough to know that, but I would bet that that might be a slot. Elevated in might be the slot you want to go to get him out. And then the other component of it, where guys are because of so many breaking balls being thrown, so many guys are kind of like I don't the term would be diving. Although you're just really your left foots gets the right had hit, or you get left foot really gets closer to the plate because you're looking outside so much because I'm going to see a breaking ball. I'm seeing so many breaking balls, and all of a sudden, that becomes part of your nature and your method of hitting. So for years, I mean, you really stayed away from diving. I mean that was a big thing as a hitting coach. You really wanted to help your guys to learn to not do that and still be able to cover the outer edge of the plate. For me, the adjustment was always by getting the back foot closer to the plate and controlling where your front foot went based on that, because when your backfoot gets farther away from the plate, then you have a tendency to want to get your diver or get your left foot more close to the plate because that's your way to cover the outside edge. So if I had to draw two conclusions, I would say that the breaking ball pliforation of breaking balls being thrown is causing some hitters to really dive or try to protect that outside edge more. And analytically speaking, the elevated in fastball is such an effective pitch, but the problem is some guys that can't execute it are throwing it. And when you can't execute and you throw it offen enough, you're going to hit some guys. So I don't think there's anything sinister behind all this. But more than anything, I think if I had to conclude two things, I would say that those two ideas may be at the top of the list as to why where guys are getting hit.

Well, there's two things that happened with that. The hitter's either diving in and or the pitchers really trying to elevate in. I'm elevated in is a really good pitch if you could perform it. There's a slot up there on every guy. It's rare that anybody handles elevation in. Well, that's a rare hitter, and if he does, it's probably just blocked out hit softly the other way. So again, this could come down to analytics and where to pitch certain hitters. I watch Mokie, but I don't know him well enough to know that, but I would bet that that might be a slot. Elevated in might be the slot you want to go to get him out. And then the other component of it, where guys are because of so many breaking balls being thrown, so many guys are kind of like I don't the term would be diving. Although you're just really your left foots gets the right had hit, or you get left foot really gets closer to the plate because you're looking outside so much because I'm going to see a breaking ball. I'm seeing so many breaking balls, and all of a sudden, that becomes part of your nature and your method of hitting. So for years, I mean, you really stayed away from diving. I mean that was a big thing as a hitting coach. You really wanted to help your guys to learn to not do that and still be able to cover the outer edge of the plate. For me, the adjustment was always by getting the back foot closer to the plate and controlling where your front foot went based on that, because when your backfoot gets farther away from the plate, then you have a tendency to want to get your diver or get your left foot more close to the plate because that's your way to cover the outside edge. So if I had to draw two conclusions, I would say that the breaking ball pliforation of breaking balls being thrown is causing some hitters to really dive or try to protect that outside edge more. And analytically speaking, the elevated in fastball is such an effective pitch, but the problem is some guys that can't execute it are throwing it. And when you can't execute and you throw it offen enough, you're going to hit some guys. So I don't think there's anything sinister behind all this. But more than anything, I think if I had to conclude two things, I would say that those two ideas may be at the top of the list as to why where guys are getting hit.

Now, that's very interesting because I'm going to go in a completely opposite direction. Cool, I'm gonna blame the pictures, Okay. Dan Altavilla was the pitcher. The catcher sets up for a four seen fastball away. Dan Altavilla throws ninety eight miles an hour. That pitch was ninety seven point nine miles an hour. He completely lost it armside, complete other side of the plate. It actually had some run on it, which you normally don't see that much run on a four seing fastball. But he's a low slot guy who throws in the upper nineties, and quite frankly, he's like a lot of pitchers these days. They throw hard, but they don't have command. And the two seemer is coming back in the game. There's no question about that. And when I say a two seamer, it's not necessarily a true sinker the way you think of those ground balls, but hard two seamers that run in on right handers that set up pitches away. You see a lot of pitchers Zach Wheelers as good as anybody, and it's hard to classify that as a sinker. But I call it a hard two seemer. So we're seeing a lot of those right on right, left on left, where it's arm side to the hitter, you lose the pitch arm side, you're going to hit the guy. In this case, it's a four seam fastball completely loses on the other side of the plate. And I think hitting is more dangerous than ever because pitchers are chasing velocity and they're getting the big leagues without commanding the fastball. And I think just sprayed fastballs have a lot to do with it. Guys getting hit. Now, if you include cutters, fastballs take up fifty five percent of pitches in the game today, If you take cutters out, it's about forty seven forty eight, But say fifty five percent including cutters are fastballs. The hit by pitches, fifty nine percent of those are fastballs. So fastballs generally are the bigger problem here. And listen, you get hit with you know, ninety eight and above, you get a good chance of breaking something. So I think we have a lot of guys in the game who chasing spin, chasing velocity, and if you mentioned to them the word command, they're like, well, you know, catcher sets up the middle of the plate and I'll try to get the ball there somewhere around there.

Now, that's very interesting because I'm going to go in a completely opposite direction. Cool, I'm gonna blame the pictures, Okay. Dan Altavilla was the pitcher. The catcher sets up for a four seen fastball away. Dan Altavilla throws ninety eight miles an hour. That pitch was ninety seven point nine miles an hour. He completely lost it armside, complete other side of the plate. It actually had some run on it, which you normally don't see that much run on a four seing fastball. But he's a low slot guy who throws in the upper nineties, and quite frankly, he's like a lot of pitchers these days. They throw hard, but they don't have command. And the two seemer is coming back in the game. There's no question about that. And when I say a two seamer, it's not necessarily a true sinker the way you think of those ground balls, but hard two seamers that run in on right handers that set up pitches away. You see a lot of pitchers Zach Wheelers as good as anybody, and it's hard to classify that as a sinker. But I call it a hard two seemer. So we're seeing a lot of those right on right, left on left, where it's arm side to the hitter, you lose the pitch arm side, you're going to hit the guy. In this case, it's a four seam fastball completely loses on the other side of the plate. And I think hitting is more dangerous than ever because pitchers are chasing velocity and they're getting the big leagues without commanding the fastball. And I think just sprayed fastballs have a lot to do with it. Guys getting hit. Now, if you include cutters, fastballs take up fifty five percent of pitches in the game today, If you take cutters out, it's about forty seven forty eight, But say fifty five percent including cutters are fastballs. The hit by pitches, fifty nine percent of those are fastballs. So fastballs generally are the bigger problem here. And listen, you get hit with you know, ninety eight and above, you get a good chance of breaking something. So I think we have a lot of guys in the game who chasing spin, chasing velocity, and if you mentioned to them the word command, they're like, well, you know, catcher sets up the middle of the plate and I'll try to get the ball there somewhere around there.

You're right, been in a lot of meetings where pitchers that they're not they're not being taught to pitch or being taught to throw in the rock throwers, they're just trying to throw the ball as hard as they possibly can. And in the meetings you will hear oftentimes just to the catcher, just sit down the middle, because when these guys try to sit on edges, it doesn't matter because these guys can't hit edges. So it's really become to that point where you just try to throw the ball down the middle, knowing that it's not going to go down the middle more often than not. So that's I've been part of those meetings. Also one hundred percent right about the chasing of velocity and the fact that ConTroll and command is really not an issue as it had been anymore, And for me, for so many years, often thought in order to be a big league pitcher, we always talked about being able to control and command your fastball in order to be a major league pitcher. We always thought that was the benchmark, that that was the one area where we wanted our guys to really strive to become good at because we thought everything would play off of that, whereas today it's just more about the scribing is for velocity more than it is to be able to pitch ability and be able to command pitches in and out. So I do agree with what you just said, but again I also believe the in meetings and stuff, the elevated ind component of it is there. But in a situation you're talking about again, without really good command of what you're doing, you pull off your pitch and it's going to run in exactly like you did to him. And last point, I still believe like the hitters having to protect away because of so many breaking balls, I think this they all conspire to get to the point where a lot of guys are getting hit.

You're right, been in a lot of meetings where pitchers that they're not they're not being taught to pitch or being taught to throw in the rock throwers, they're just trying to throw the ball as hard as they possibly can. And in the meetings you will hear oftentimes just to the catcher, just sit down the middle, because when these guys try to sit on edges, it doesn't matter because these guys can't hit edges. So it's really become to that point where you just try to throw the ball down the middle, knowing that it's not going to go down the middle more often than not. So that's I've been part of those meetings. Also one hundred percent right about the chasing of velocity and the fact that ConTroll and command is really not an issue as it had been anymore, And for me, for so many years, often thought in order to be a big league pitcher, we always talked about being able to control and command your fastball in order to be a major league pitcher. We always thought that was the benchmark, that that was the one area where we wanted our guys to really strive to become good at because we thought everything would play off of that, whereas today it's just more about the scribing is for velocity more than it is to be able to pitch ability and be able to command pitches in and out. So I do agree with what you just said, but again I also believe the in meetings and stuff, the elevated ind component of it is there. But in a situation you're talking about again, without really good command of what you're doing, you pull off your pitch and it's going to run in exactly like you did to him. And last point, I still believe like the hitters having to protect away because of so many breaking balls, I think this they all conspire to get to the point where a lot of guys are getting hit.

Yeah, you know, Joe getting out of the way of a pitch that's coming at you at ninety eight. It's almost impossible, especially when there's armside run the same sided hitter where it's literally diving in toward you. It's so difficult. I had a good conversation with Dave Roberts the other day about Corey Seger, and obviously you matched up against him a lot, and the way Corey Seger fills up the batter's box. He's a big dude. If you see Corey in person, he's even bigger than you think he is, just in terms of how broad he is and his shoulders and his height, everything about him. He fills up the batter's box. He takes that wide stance and he does not move Joe, I mean, he does not give ground. And what Dave was talking about was exactly that, that you can't scare him off the plate. You know, there are some guys, and I know the Yankees used to talk about this with Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez and some hitters. You can throw them hard in and that will open up the outside part of the plate because they don't like the ball in. Some hitters are I hate to use the word afraid, but the ball inside does have them jump out of the way. We see it all the time to come back two seamer at the hips, where a hitter will jump out of the way. Well, Corey Seeger is one of those hitters. He's not going to jump out of the way if that come back two seemers coming at his hip. He's staying right there. And it's interesting to me, Joe. The guys can get to the big leagues. Some never give ground and some and you know who those hitters were. You knew you could push them off the plate and sort of dictate at bats by doing that. You know, it's a skill that we don't see as much anymore. Roger Clemens used to call it moving a hitter's feet. I mean, he was really going after hitters, and he made it sound like he was, you know, helping a buddy move furniture. We gotta move the feet. We don't see as much of that. But you know, Joe, there are certain hitters where you can dictate in a bet by pitching them hard in and they don't like the ball in.

Yeah, you know, Joe getting out of the way of a pitch that's coming at you at ninety eight. It's almost impossible, especially when there's armside run the same sided hitter where it's literally diving in toward you. It's so difficult. I had a good conversation with Dave Roberts the other day about Corey Seger, and obviously you matched up against him a lot, and the way Corey Seger fills up the batter's box. He's a big dude. If you see Corey in person, he's even bigger than you think he is, just in terms of how broad he is and his shoulders and his height, everything about him. He fills up the batter's box. He takes that wide stance and he does not move Joe, I mean, he does not give ground. And what Dave was talking about was exactly that, that you can't scare him off the plate. You know, there are some guys, and I know the Yankees used to talk about this with Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez and some hitters. You can throw them hard in and that will open up the outside part of the plate because they don't like the ball in. Some hitters are I hate to use the word afraid, but the ball inside does have them jump out of the way. We see it all the time to come back two seamer at the hips, where a hitter will jump out of the way. Well, Corey Seeger is one of those hitters. He's not going to jump out of the way if that come back two seemers coming at his hip. He's staying right there. And it's interesting to me, Joe. The guys can get to the big leagues. Some never give ground and some and you know who those hitters were. You knew you could push them off the plate and sort of dictate at bats by doing that. You know, it's a skill that we don't see as much anymore. Roger Clemens used to call it moving a hitter's feet. I mean, he was really going after hitters, and he made it sound like he was, you know, helping a buddy move furniture. We gotta move the feet. We don't see as much of that. But you know, Joe, there are certain hitters where you can dictate in a bet by pitching them hard in and they don't like the ball in.

One hundred percent, that's exactly right. And in there's those that are, like you said, the most more stoic types Anthony Rizzo, I think in today's game really represents that well. Rizz gets on the plate, stays on the plate because he has to be there in order to be successful. He's been hit a lot. And the thing I like about riz and I always used to tell my hitters, when you get hit by a pitch, you got two options. Go to the mount or go to first base. And so Rizz just drops the bat and runs the first base because he knows ree set up and he knows it's going to probably or possibly happen. And that's great. Mo Vaughn. The thing about he used to love about modacious Mo would get Mo would get over the plate. He'd have his back foot at the back point of the plate and his front foot would be, of course a little bit in front of the plate, but he would have the plate underneath him, basically because he felt that was his best way to command the strike zone. And he's, you know, Moe's pretty big, strong dude and everything. But these are guys that weren't going to be moved. As an example, they're not going to be moved, not the guys that you can move. I don't even can't think of examples off the top of my head. But there are and that's true. I mean, you definitely want to push them back, like right when you make them like put their arms up in the air, push their stomach back and like they almost like they're doing a dance kind of a move, get in the middle of their torso and make them react like that. A lot of guys, you got them after that. You know you got them after that. And there's nothing wrong with repeating that. See, that's the big thing about pitchers that really know what they're doing, is to repeat inside, repeat inside. Because when you just dot them up once inside and go back away, that can become a pattern. Hitters can make that adjustment. But when you come in and repeat in, that definitely makes these guys think twice. But not guys like bo and not guys like Riz. So it takes all kinds. But it's true the inside pitch could be a big weapon, and to others, it's just where they need to be in order to hit like they're capable of hitting. They know they're gonna get hit on occasion. Got two options, go to the mount or go to first space.

One hundred percent, that's exactly right. And in there's those that are, like you said, the most more stoic types Anthony Rizzo, I think in today's game really represents that well. Rizz gets on the plate, stays on the plate because he has to be there in order to be successful. He's been hit a lot. And the thing I like about riz and I always used to tell my hitters, when you get hit by a pitch, you got two options. Go to the mount or go to first base. And so Rizz just drops the bat and runs the first base because he knows ree set up and he knows it's going to probably or possibly happen. And that's great. Mo Vaughn. The thing about he used to love about modacious Mo would get Mo would get over the plate. He'd have his back foot at the back point of the plate and his front foot would be, of course a little bit in front of the plate, but he would have the plate underneath him, basically because he felt that was his best way to command the strike zone. And he's, you know, Moe's pretty big, strong dude and everything. But these are guys that weren't going to be moved. As an example, they're not going to be moved, not the guys that you can move. I don't even can't think of examples off the top of my head. But there are and that's true. I mean, you definitely want to push them back, like right when you make them like put their arms up in the air, push their stomach back and like they almost like they're doing a dance kind of a move, get in the middle of their torso and make them react like that. A lot of guys, you got them after that. You know you got them after that. And there's nothing wrong with repeating that. See, that's the big thing about pitchers that really know what they're doing, is to repeat inside, repeat inside. Because when you just dot them up once inside and go back away, that can become a pattern. Hitters can make that adjustment. But when you come in and repeat in, that definitely makes these guys think twice. But not guys like bo and not guys like Riz. So it takes all kinds. But it's true the inside pitch could be a big weapon, and to others, it's just where they need to be in order to hit like they're capable of hitting. They know they're gonna get hit on occasion. Got two options, go to the mount or go to first space.

So Joe, that brings me to the always interesting topic of intentionally hitting a batter, you know. And I know that there used to be back in the day Tony LaRussa used to talk about, or they said, Tony would talk about, you know, you hit one of mine, we hit two of yours.

So Joe, that brings me to the always interesting topic of intentionally hitting a batter, you know. And I know that there used to be back in the day Tony LaRussa used to talk about, or they said, Tony would talk about, you know, you hit one of mine, we hit two of yours.

Right.

Right.

I think some of that code has disappeared from the game, Joe, But do you believe that there are still times and I don't know if the manager would be involved in this, but there are times when a pitcher will intentionally throw at a batter, you know, based on what it's precipitated something.

I think some of that code has disappeared from the game, Joe, But do you believe that there are still times and I don't know if the manager would be involved in this, but there are times when a pitcher will intentionally throw at a batter, you know, based on what it's precipitated something.

Yeah, it should happen on occasion. But the big thing about a professional hit you go at the thigh, you go low, you go in the middle of the body. You don't ever go up top with with that kind of a message. Back in the day they did. I mean, you talk about you know, the chin music and all that stuff, and guys expected it. Hitters would not dig in. They were ready for it to come at them. And good batter and different whatever you want to describe that. It sounds like a really mean method right in today's world, but back then it was part of the landscape. And that's what different pictures did in order to survive and also to protect their own. So there is that part of it, and you're right when it comes to these kind of moments. In my experience, one hundred percent of the time it came from somebody within the group. A lot of times it's a veteran picture, veteran relief pitcher especially. And I'll say this too, I didn't like when you try to put that on one of my rookie pictures. I didn't like when a rookie pitcher was asked to do something like that. They just didn't know how quite frankly, so I'd rather wait later in the game and give their responsibility to a veteran, a guy that knew how to do it a little bit more, with a little bit more pinache, because it has to be done. I'm sorry. I mean, people may disagree with that, but these are the kind of things that can set it apart. I know, example, two thousand and eight, Rays playing the Boston Red Sox in Boston, dust up the next Shields E drills Cocoa Crisp right in the thigh first pitch of the game, and all hell broke loose. But that was a big part of the ascension in the galvanizing component of our team. Again, I don't know if that's really part of the landscape anymore, even know if that method would take root. I don't know how players would react to it today, but back then they did, and I always felt like a little bit dust up on occasion was actually good for morale based on keeping your group together. So I know a lot of people are going to disagree with what I'm saying right now, and that's fine, but I'm telling here to tell you it does matter. And when you do things like that, the galvanizer group have each other's back, protecting your own, it matters. So I'll always defend that concept. I think it's appropriate. And again I'm not talking about going high on anybody. Chuck Finley was great at picking out a thigh, and so is James Shields.