The Book of Joe with Joe Maddon and Tom VerducciThe Book of Joe: Shifting gears at and behind the plate
In this episode of 'The Book of Joe Podcast', Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci note a third of the season is gone and it's time to shift into gear! Craig Counsell gets booed in his return to Milwaukee and the Dodgers have lost 5 straight. Joe gives his thoughts on beleaguered umpire Angel Hernandez retiring from the game. Who are the best and worst umps behind the plate? Plus, Joe notes the passing of Bill Walton and his unique personality through the years.
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The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe, we actually got on the other side of Memorial Day. That means we are one third of the way through the baseball season.
Imagine that, right, I mean, and the thing I always felt in a baseball season would always start out slowly. Spring training was slow time. At the end of spring training, slow time at the beginning of the season, slow time. You get a couple of rainouts, they give you days off that you don't need, all that kind of stuff. It was slow time. Then all of a sudden, man, it'll just like shift gears. It goes first to second, the third, fourth, before you know, you're in fifth, sixth gear, and it goes it goes fast, and so that's what's happening. It's going to keep going more quickly, and all of a sudden, you before you know, it's going to be September and it's October. But it's weird. It goes from slow time to fast time like the snap of the fingers.
Yeah, it was Sparky Anderson who used to say it takes sixty games to really know what you have in terms of separating contenders from pretenders. First month of the season is always a little bit sketchy a lot of times, weather gets involved, off days, whatever. Two months now, I think we know pretty much where the good teams are and maybe the surprise teams like the Kansas City Royals and Cleveland Guardians. We're going to get into some of those teams, and what's happening with the Atlanta Braves with Ronald Ucunya out as well.
But Joe, I know one of.
Your favorite subjects besides rock and roll and classic rock I'm talking about and cars is umpires. We're going to get into umpires later on, but first I got to ask you about Craig Council going back to Milwaukee. Remember, he was a free agent after last season with Milwaukee, signed a huge deal with the Chicago Cubs. He goes back to Milwaukee for the first time as Cubs manager on Memorial Day and he gets booed. I mean, come on, first of all, the day that he signed with the Cubs, somebody defaced a sign with profanity Craig Council field at a little league field in his hometown of Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin. Come on, people, and it was probably just one person who did it, but that's just awful. And then booing the guy because I guess he had the audacity to take a better deal from a team that valued him more than the Milwaukee Brewers. You know, listen, I thought it was wrong. I thought the Brewers did the right thing. They had a video tribute to Counts on the board. But for the fans to boo Craig Counsel and I know a lot of times these days, Joe fans think it's cool to boo, like, isn't that funny We're going to boot somebody? And he played a type cast, so to speak. But this is Milwaukee. It's Craig Counsel who seemingly every year had this low revenue team fighting for a playoffs spot and in the playoffs, and he gets booed for what reason. I don't get it. Not a good job by the Milwaukee fan base.
Yeah, it gets built up over probably a week or ten days, or maybe a little bit longer than that. A lot of it has to do with social media and media in general, where people that can't make up their minds for themselves decidled this will be fun, it'll be cool to boo this guy, and then he gains momentum, and all of a sudden, here comes the day and they boo him. I went through something similar, but I did not have that kind of a fan base when I left Tampa Bay to go to the Cubs. Going back to Tampa Bay, I don't think I remember getting booed. I don't remember that specifically. It's just becoming more and more prominent. Everybody needs to be booed, everybody needs to be fired where things don't go well. It's the garnering of a momentum. And I really do believe social media has a lot to do with this, because a lot of people just can't think for themselves anywhere. They have to be part of group think. We're at that point now where everything deserves retribution in some way. I cannot disagree with that more. But yeah, I think there's a momentum gain. There's this swell that starts picking up speed when somebody will put that out there and then somebody thinks it's cool, and then somebody else thinks it's cool. Only because we cannot think for ourselves.
Anymore, and Joe, you went through this, as you mentioned, leaving Tampa Bay for the Cubs, and you understand personally it takes free agency for a manager to really be valued and true value, right, You need bidders, and in this case, the Milwaukee Brewers had plenty of opportunities to sign Craig Council to an extension, and then after the season they came in with an offer at about five and a half million dollars a year, which is good money, but it's true value as a guy who gets the most out of his teams was found out when the Chicago Cubs said we'll give you eight million a year.
Folks, that's not even close.
You're not supposed to stay in a place just because you've been there, and when another team values you by so much more, and listen, I applaud Craig Counsel Joe, because I think he realized. I'm not sure if it was part of his plan. I do think deep down he preferred to stay in Milwaukee. Let's face it, that's his hometown. His dad worked for the Brewers for years and years and years. That's where his history at home is. So all things being equal, yeah, I think he wanted to stay in Milwaukee.
He wasn't like I got to get out of this place.
But when another team comes around and offers you so much more, and they're telling you we value more than your current team, I don't have a problem with the guy leaving, and in fact, I applaud him for what he's done for managers by raising the bar, because I think in general, managers are criminally underpaid. And I say that in quotes because let's face it, they're all doing pretty well, but in this scheme of Major League Baseball and what they're paying some of the players, I'm talking about the back end of the roster. Yeah, I think Crek Counsel needed to push the envelope for managers, and I applaud the way he did it, and he obviously it does not deserve to be booed.
No, you represent your organization at least twice a day via the media, just talking about the pregame press conference, the postgame press conference, and then all the other little vignettes that you do during the course of the day when you show up to the ballpark, so you are the face of the franchise, is always your star player in a sense. But then Again, nobody speaks on behalf of your franchise, whether the manager does. The GM doesn't do that, definitely not. The owner doesn't do that. There's nobody within the group that's asked to explain good or bad what's going on daily. It's almost like the press secretary for the presidents. Really, I've often thought about that, what's the difference. A lot of times you're on your left, your own devices. You will talk to somebody upstairs about something that may appear to be more controversial, just to make sure that you're not stepping on any toes because what that can happen. And then all of a sudden, after you've done something you thought was completely innocent, you're going to get a phone call where somebody's going to come down to speak with you. So there's all of that that has to be Nobody even thinks about that, the idea of the fact that you have to sit there every day and answer some difficult questions because when things aren't going well, man, it's hard to really sit there and remain composed, give them straightforward answers. Them being the media, and again you're defending, You're constantly defending, I could say defending when things aren't going well, then there's the chance to play offense, which is always fun. When things are going well, then you could be more on the offensive side of the ball. When things aren't going well, you're always playing defense with your feet. With your feet, move your feet. That's how this thing works. So yeah, there's so many hours in the day. This the representation. Then you look at with college coaches are able to garner and you go wow. And a lot of them are football coaches that where they coach eight or ten games a year. Now they have to answer to alumni and they got to go out there and do a lot of public appearances. I get it. But major League Baseball managers make several appearances on a daily basis and represent and manage two hundred games a year including spring training. If you get to that last game of the year, and when there's a lot going on here, man that people don't understand unless you've actually worked the job.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I started out in an era where speaking to the manager, you'd have the beat writers to get together just hanging out on chairs and couches in the office before the game and then after the games kind of the same kind of thing. It was not a formal setup as they do with typically in a press conference room. Like you said, it's analogous to the White House briefing room, right, Yeah, so there's a formality to it, and the managers now for the most part, are giving you the same corporate speak that you're getting from the front office because you have to tread carefully, right, because there is this we lost the casualness of just talking baseball with the manager. So I think that's created almost this robotic system where managers, as you say, Joe, don't want to step on anybody's toes. And that's why I'm happy when some managers give you just this gleam of honesty.
We talked about Ron Washington.
And the squeeze play with Luis Guillorme andsh just saying flat out and he's correct, He's got to.
Get the ball down, simple as that.
And he was accused of quote unquote throwing him under the bus, which is ridiculous. We had another case recently here with Pedro Graffoll with the Chicago White Sox. They were playing the Baltimore Orioles. They got no hit for seven innings, wound up losing the game, and after the game, Pedro said the team's effort was effing flat, and again he gets called out for throwing his team under the bus, and obviously the media then goes to the players and the players have to respond to that. There was a team meeting after the game and the players basically said, hey, we don't agree, but that's his opinion. Kudos to Pedri graffoll I have no problem with the guy saying the team was flat.
Maybe they were. Managers should know his own team and your ego if you're a major league player, to me, should not be bruised Joe.
If the manager says you were flat and calls you out on that, I wish it was.
Done more often. So the next day, this is great.
The next day Pedro when the media talks to him for the pregame press conference, as you mentioned, Pedro says, I'm doubling down on what I said. I thought we were flat, and that's where I'm going to leave it. I love that, So kudos to Pedro. And listen to Chicago White Sox. This is unbelievable. They're fifteen and forty. It is the worst start in the history of the Chicago White Sox franchise. So yes, there's definitely some frustration, and by the way, they went out and lost to Toronto five to one the next day. But again, we shouldn't be we'ren't a business and the journalism business, Joe of seeking answers and looking for honesty, and when someone says something that is honestly the way that they feel, we shouldn't call them out and reprimand them for quote unquote throwing somebody under the bus.
I thought I liked him, now I love him. I didn't realize he doubled down the next day. That is outstanding and that's the way it should be. You know, you and I have talked about this when I let the Rays. I was a big Tom Clancy fan and Clancy's protagonist Jack Ryan was known for speaking the truth, and there was the time with the with clear and present danger when he could double down. Not only was he one of your friends, mister President, he's one of your best friends. And I would talk to Rick Vaughan. I knew something controversial would be asked after the game, and so RB would come in and I'd say, RB, I'm going Jack Ryan to night Man I'm going Jack Ryan, we're running right into this thing. You don't run away from, you run right into it. The moment you start telling the truth, you know what happens, The controversy goes away. So my established method, i'd say, from I don't know two thousand and seven eight, whatever it might have been, was to go Jack Ryan on him, and that would be just not only tell him the truth, tell him the harsh, hard truth. This is exactly what's going on. And you know you're right. I mean you have to. As a manager. You have in the back of your head the player's reaction to and I think, again, I hope I'm not being redundant. But there's this ally component to all of this. When you can be critical of somebody, specifically that person going to look for allies within the clubhouse, and particularly probably somebody that's not doing well it doesn't think he's getting played often enough. There's all these kind of little undercurrent political elements of every clubhouse. So when you say something as a manager, you know you know whether you're going to be supported or not. And if you have a nice clubhouse with a couple veterans that really know what's going on, you're going to be supported and they're going to tell these people to shut up. And then again if you don't when you're kind of fragmented like the White Sox are right now, there are no there's no leader within that clubhouse that say, hey, he's right. You know, we got to get our crap together. This isn't working or you got to be kidding me, and we got to respect what the manager says right here, if you have the right kind of process built up within the group, and so that's all that is. I mean, telling the truth, go Jack Ryan on him, say it, Just say it. When you say the truth like that, you just have to sum. You have to be prepared for the consequences that may come to you. But again, if that was what you believed and that's what you meant, then there's no reason to worry about it. But know your clubhouse, know what's going to happen, what's going to be the aftermath because something like that, Normally with a good clubhouse, the players would have agreed with that and try to do something about it.
Yeah.
I like all those points, Joe, And I think you know, as a manager, there are times where you can sense that the team is flat, right. I mean this was a Sunday afternoon game, you know things aren't going well. He didn't call out anybody individually. I think it's important to note that. And I don't have a problem with if a manager thinks and you know, in the long season there are times where a team is flat, and you know, it's players nature not to want to admit that that happens, but it does. It's human nature. So again, I don't have a problem. I don't think he had a motivation like, oh I need to rally the here. I think kind of pop off after the game. I think he just noticed something and it bothered him and maybe it was building.
Yeah. The other thing for me, I always talked about the lead bulls, and you're at least the eight most influential players on the team that i'd have been meeting with in spring training. In advance of that, I would go to one of these guys, you know. In other words, as opposed to maybe saying publicly that we were flat today, I would go to whomever and say, listen, this is unacceptable. Man. Either have a meeting individually with some guys, or you need to have a player's only meeting because again I'm not a team meeting guy, because I think when it comes from peers, it has a lot more substance and it's louder and lasts longer. So I would go to one of the guys that I thought are several and say listen, or maybe call a little meeting among them and say this isn't this. We can't do this, guys, and you got to you got to agree that this is not right, and I need you to have a team meeting among yourselves and discuss all this stuff. So that's that's why I like that. I think when it comes back to the manager, when the manager has to intervene, that's pretty much when all else fails. I've always thought, so you set up these different layers in front of you, not too necessary to protect you, or you're afraid to sayty, that's not the point. The point is when it runs of its own volition, If it runs on its own accord, it always runs better. When you have to start steering it from behind. Man that gets it's a yellow dirty Sometimes you're not always going to get the immediate reaction you're looking for. You know, you could you could start roughing some feathers and sometimes you have to. I agree with that, but I like when it comes from the group itself, when they could be accountable to each other and concede. That's absolutely correct. We got to do something about it, so that would have been my first step. But I set that up in spring training by having that meeting and explain it to all the guys that this is how we're going to do it in the clubhouse. I'm out of it. I'm not. This is your clubhouse. This is how we need to run it. And if I have to get involved, it means everything else that we've set up has failed. Well.
Expectations were low for the Chicago White Sox that's generally a younger team, but I mentioned we're one third of the way through the season. The Dodgers and the Braves were two teams expected to be among the elite in the National League. And right now there are some issues with both Los Angeles and Atlanta and we'll dive into that right after this.
Welcome Back to the Book of Joe podcast.
The Dodgers have lost five straight games for the first time in five years. In their last sixteen, they're seven to nine and hitting two ten. I mean, listen, Joe. We know the Dodgers are fine, right, They're going to be in the postseason. They're going to win the National League West. No one's panicking about that. But sometimes, Joe, this team just doesn't work because to me, the lineup is so top heavy heavy ye that the depth of the lineup just isn't there. If the big guys don't hit, there's no other way to win a ballgame, and listen to. Pitching is really good. But I think lately they've had serious bullpen issues. You know, the course of a season. I'm sure you went through this with the sixteen Cubs. You know, not every team is just going to roll the whole year. We're at the stage now looking at the Dodgers where we're seeing their flaws and if you want to pick a team apart and see where they're vulnerable in a postseason environment, I think the Dodgers are showing that to you right now. Lack of depth in the lineup, lack of depth in the bullpen.
Yeah, you're right, And having said all that, you're also right. I believe that they're going to settle down, they're going to get back on roll. They're going to look like they had early on in the season, but I was I just happened to be looking at that today and I'm looking at their lineup itself. It really does stin out pretty drastically towards the ball. There's a lot to contend with at the top, absolutely there is. But those guys aren't going to, like I guess, show A's struggling a little bit right now, so there's going to be that little bit of a struggle where you're looking for other people to pick it up. And if after Hernandez it looked like it really fell off dramatically, so that will somewhat become mitigated. Some of the guys that are not doing as well are going to pick it up a little bit. But that's going to be I think a constant source of concern all year, the fact that they have this this real fall off after five. It looks like but the pitching staff, I mean, Bueller coming back, they got to get really well there. I don't know. I haven't been following their bullpen enough to be honest with you, but I know I know they're going to do some things there that it's going to make it more interesting and somebody's going to pick it up I have a lot of faith in their process there. So it's a bump in the road. It's not right right now, but you're right. They're going to win the division, maybe not run away with it as much as everybody else thought, but I still think that's forthcoming. But if I had one situation to address with them, a be somehow to look into that lineup situation, because it did not it does. The name's not read really well after five.
Yeah, and you mentioned Tascar Hernandez and even he scares me in a postseason environment because there's so much swing and miss there. Game planning, as you know, Joe really ratches it up in the postseason.
Rotation shortened, bullpen shortened.
You know, you can get to Taskar Hernandez in a big spot because there's so much swing and miss there. So something to keep an eye on with the Dodgers. And also we talked about Pedro Graffol and how he responded to you know, his team looking flat on the field and called him out.
Dave Roberts had a very different reaction.
Now, this is the difference when you have the Dodgers, you know, sitting in first place, and you're not worried because you're playing for October. I mentioned they've hit two ten over the last mile basically three weeks, and his response was, well, we're not hitting. And when when you're not hitting, it certainly feels like lifeless. But I know it's not from lack of care or preparation. But the bottom line is it's about results, and we're not getting the results. That's typical Dave Roberts. I mean, he handles situations so well. I mean there's never an alarm button that he pushes. And you expect that from Dave Roberts because he's got a really good team. And you know, I think Joe as a manager, and you've had bad teams, you've had good teams. I think a team that's talented, this talented that's been through it mostly a veteran team, you can handle it a lot differently than if you have a young team like Petro Graffall has.
No question when you have a little bit of pedigree to fall back on. It's a totally different thought process from the manager, whether to his group or to the media, or to the general public, whatever however you want to describe it. It's completely different. His head on the pillow at night is totally different than Griffall's. I mean, David's got, you know, job security. He knows what's going on there, he's got to and also there's this chemistry among him and the front office that there's a lot of security involved in that, and there's a lot of knowing that this is going to get better. On the other hand, Griffal doesn't know that. I don't know what his situations like with his front office. I don't know what it's like among his coaching staff or even his players. I have no idea, but there's completely different tact and approach from David and with Pedro. Now i've heard Pedro speak. His guy's really sharp, and I remember years Eddie Perez used to always tell me, take them on my coaching staff, take them on my coaching staff if I had an opening. He was pushing him when he was with Kansas City for years. Then I finally got a chance to hear him speak, and that's I'm big on that. It's like John Schneider with the Blue Jays. I like when he talks. I like what he says and how he says it. I thought Pedro was really sharp too, and I liked that also So these guys, just like a Schneider and a griffall just need time. They need their teams to become somewhat successful in order for people to believe that these guys really know what they're talking about. Whereas David has got obviously by that, so he's it's more easy, it's easier to handle some difficult situations, things aren't going well. He has the cachet built up. People are gonna hang with it longer. And of course his way, his method of saying it is going to present because David doesn't really, like you said, he's not going to panic. He's always got a nice way about him, whether we're having a glass of wine with him, where he's managing in the seventh inning. So it's it's just a different time in each guy's career. It's a different organization, there's a different tools, and again you're you're you're really subject to who's putting this thing together as a manager, because the managers don't put it together. It's not like an NFL team, where an NFL coach and the staff has a lot to do with how a team drafts, et cetera. In Major League Baseball baseball, you don't have any of that. This you're really at the mercy of people that are the evaluators, those that are acquiring or accumulating the talent, and how they see things and how they put it together. And then you have to pretty much have their vision, the front office vision work. It's not your vision, it's the vision of the front office that you are charged with making this vision work. So there's a difference. So Pedro and Snyder as an example, I'd love to see these guys really get their feet on the ground because I think they can both be very good. I think they're really bright, and I like the way they communicate, whereas David's well beyond that.
That's a great point about the roster too, because I look at this Dodger team and they've had so much churn in their bullpen, Joe.
I mean, they keep trying to.
Find and pop some guys and they've been great at it over the years, in a manner similar to Tampa Bay. And that's that's not a surprise given Andrew Friedman is kind of a link between those two franchises, and his influence remains in Tampa Bay.
But you know, they they turn up guys you can spin.
The ball or maybe have a pitch that plays up with a little bit of help with the track man and reps Soto and the technology today. But they keep running bullpen guys through there, and Dave Roberts has guys basically showing up every day trying to figure out who they are are what they do. So I understand it for the Dodgers, they don't have a subtle bullpen right now that if there was an injury to Evan Phillips, that has kind of backed everybody up as well. So it hasn't been easy for Dave Roberts with these guys. I mean, he had a guy Ramirez coming the other day. He was defaide a couple of times already by New York and winds up there, hits a couple of batters and Dave Roberts has to take a mountain visit just to get this guy's feet on the ground. He's not trying to hit anybody, but he's trying to impress the new manager or the new coaching staff, and there's a lot.
Of handholding has to go on.
And you know, Joe, as a manager, it's very uncomfortable to have guys in your bullpen that you're not really sure what their role is or how they'll respond to a situation. It takes some time to understand that about each guy and their heartbeat and how they handle the situation. So I think Dave has been dealing with that too, And as you mentioned, that's really a product to the front office trying to find the right people and the manager having to go through a learning curve.
I remember when the year we got Fernando Rodney with the Rays, and Andrew called me in the off season. He says, what do you think about Fernando Rodney? Has it got a great arm, but it's kind of like the nitro. You never know what nitro glycerin. You never know what you're gonna get. It's very sensitive. And he says, our guys really like him. Our staff are you know, their analytical group really liked him. And sure enough, I think he had like a point six something ERA that year. The other guy was Joaquin ben Wa Benny. I always loved Benny, and then all of a sudden he asked me about Benny, and I said, I always love Benny, but you know, I don't know, I haven't seen him for a bit whatever. So we ended up getting Ben Watt and Fernando in the same year. I remember coming out of spring training. I don't even think Benny started with the big club. I think he started in Triple A. But the point I'm driving at is it takes you about a month. It took me about a month to figure out both of these guys. Where are they, how do they fit in? What's their consistency, like, how long as it take them to warm up? How much time do they need off after they've pitched? What's their waterloo mark number when they're pitching any games twenty four to twenty five? I mean, at what point do you know that things are going to go south with a short relief pitcher? And that's a really big thing for me. You know, you get these closers or won any guys they come in, man, and all of a sudden the number start get a little bit higher, and if you want to ride them past twenty five, sometimes bad things are going to happen. And I've always you know, you always got to know your guys and understand that in advance of the moment. So I always thought it took at least a month to understand my bullpen Now, if you're constantly bringing new actors in, that's going to take longer than a month. It's going to take maybe two months, like you're describing with the Dodgers right now. And so a team that has an unsettled bullpen, Believe me, there's nothing worse on a daily basis as a manager, because for me, that's one of the biggest things I do every day pregame is a to do my lineup and then and setting up your lineup based on who you like, of course and how you want to set them up, but you're also thinking about pinch hitting and their bullpen later in the game. And then the other part is your bullpen versus them and who's the available, who's not, and how they fit into the pockets. And it became increasingly more difficult when they went to the three batter minimum rule because now you're working out of pockets as opposed to when you had that specialist the Randy Schults of the world, Chad Bradford's of the world, the one on one kind of situations that no longer existed. All that stuff went away. So these are the kind of things that all these different rules and setups have formulated but knowing your bullpen takes some time. Man last point I want to make very quickly too, is I've been asked recently about closers and like the ideas with the Mets and how he's been struggling and what would you do, would you take him out of that roller or not? And the thing that's this three batter minimum makes diff more difficult is to get somebody back on their feet when things are going badly, meaning that if I bring him in the game, I got it. He has to face three hitters, even though it's going to you can see it going sideways quickly. Whereas in the past, if you're trying to get somebody back on their feet, you can bring him in with two outs. You can bring them with two outs and haven't finished that any of course, that's still part of the landscape. I get it. Or maybe bring him in with one out and face one hitter, specifically, get him out, bring somebody else in just to get him in and get him out, get him up, get him in, get him out of the game, have him walk off the field feeling successful and getting his confidence built up back. Then that's no longer a possibility for managers in order to get somebody back when they're really not doing that well.
That's a great point.
I'm big on that as well, and I've seen that as well with young starting pitchers. Don't leave them in there where they're in a position to leave the field with their head hanging if they're throwing, well, get them out earlier rather than later so that they feel good about themselves and correct. You've seen Brandon Hyde and Baltimore and now Carlos Mendoza with the Mets with closers that you need to be backed up to try to get back on track. Talking about kimberl and Diaz, I like that approach, and you look for soft landings, and in Kimberle's case, I thought I did a good job when there was a three run save opportunity. That's when you plug Kimberrell back in. Who's the confidence there? So maybe they're getting him back. Diaz to me just does not look the same. Stuff wise, It's gonna take some time after missing all of last year, So I like what Mendoza has done with him. Joe I mentioned the Braves another team. I don't want to say they're struggling because they're not. But the reality is they no longer have Ronald Acunya Junior, which is a real shame, one of the most exciting players in the game with another ACL injury. But the Braves are six games behind the Philadelphia Phillies, and they have ten games remaining with the Phillies, and obviously Acunya will not be part of those ten games they're starting. Pitching has been great even without Spencer Strider, but looking ahead now at the road for Atlanta, of course there's no Spencer Strider. There's no Ronald d'acunya Junior. Can the Braves run down the Philadelphia Phillies without their best pitcher and without their best everyday player.
Only if there's a nutrition component with the Phillies too. I mean, honestly, if they hate to say that, but if somebody were to get injured there to kind of level the playing field, you might see that. Otherwise, I don't think so. I don't think they'll run them down, unless, of course, it becomes leveled somehow. I mean, I know the Phillies have lost a couple games on this road trip whatever, but I watched them often here in Pennsylvania. I just like the way they play. I like Philadelphia Philly players. I like the old Philadelphia Philly players. Also, I know the city's got this checkered pass regarding the love and hate relationship with all their teams. But tell you what, you gotta have some thick skin to play in Philadelphia. And when you're good and you're playing in Philadelphia, you know, these guys kind of they let it, like just really fall off their back when things aren't going well because they're tough guys. They really are. They're different, and that Philly group is a bunch of tough guys. I know several of them myself. So they're not going to come back unless something happens, something dramatic happens, which I'm not predicting. I'm just saying much prefer them staying healthy. I think David's done a great job to Brosci there. Again, Robbie's been perfect because of the way he goes about his business every day. But I like the makeup of the group from top to bottom. They support one another. I saw a video of them the other day at somebody's kids' birthday party. They were all there. I think it was that's what it was. But they all showed up, come on that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen with most teams. They understand the importance of that kind of support. Day off, get together, even for an hour or two hours, to show up and show support for one another. That cannot be underestimated. So without any kind of significant injury to that group, I don't think the Braves can catch them.
I'm glad you brought that up. About the Phillies.
They are a tough, close knit team, and that can be a cliche, it's real. In this case, they've been together for a while, so that helps. It's a team that definitely fits the vibe of the city. And here's a quick story for you. Talking to robson the other day and he mentioned they had an off day in Miami, and you know off days for baseball players on the road, they're golden and guys tend to scatter do different things. In this case, all the position players got together and they went to the country club where Trey Turner is a member, and they all played golf, and the pitchers went to one of the relief pitchers homes the Miami area and they played board games.
So the point is they hung out.
Together even when there was no game scheduled, So that has the factor into how well they play on the field.
The fact they care about each other.
Yeah, I mean you see that a lot of times. You know the Thus it was like coaching staff's getting together a lot of times you have a team staff dinner the night of an off day. You know that in advance, you tell you asked your traveling secretary to set up a good dinner somewhere, and you do, and you go there. Man, I tell you what, you laugh, you laugh, You should laugh. You should laugh for about two hours at lead. So that's a big part of success. Quite frankly, it is a really big part of success when the groups come together away from the field. That matters a lot. That was really important to me. I loved when, like, say a catcher, but take the pitching staff or go out with the pitching staff in that situation too. Too. Again, it's just to furthest the conversation. As an example, coaching staffs, Man, I've been involved in a really bad dinner one night where it kind of got ugly. I was years ago. But then again, we had this wing place in Pittsburgh that we would go to every time we got into Pittsburgh after a Sunday afternoon again, we're playing there on Monday. Red Beers I think it was called. We would go over to Red Beers and we would just have beers and wings. Man, I'm telling you out laugh. It's some funny guys. I mean Tim Buss spearheaded it. Eric Kinsky was outstanding. A couple of my socios are funny, funny guys, and you look forward to it and it would carry you over, spill over to the next dayge you'd carry on the conversation. John Malee, John Maylee was great at those events. So all that stuff was It's important, man. You don't ever under estimate that everybody wants longer meetings. I want to make sure that we go out as a group as often as we possibly can.
Well, that sounds like a Netflix show. I would definitely watch.
Oh brother, it was hysterical. That's hysterical.
Hey, the Brave, as I mentioned, their pitching has been great. Chris Sale has been amazing, you know, breaking down his stuff. It's back to where he was competing for cy Young's. There's no question about that. The only question is, you know, he hasn't pitched a lot the last five years. You know, does he maintain this stuff throughout the sixth months and if you're the Braves, the seventh month, right although Lopez, same thing, boy, that was a great pick up by the Braves to put him into the rotation. The stuff has been there, you know, dialed back on the v low, the command has been better, and Max Freed lately has just been lights out. That's a free agent to be at the end of the year. I've always liked Max Freed a lot. I'm surprised he has not been locked up by the Braves by now, which tells me he probably is pitching somewhere else next year, because when they like it, they lock you up. And the key for me Joe with the Braves is Matt Olsen, and especially with Ronald Cuny Junior out, the power just hasn't been there so far. This is a guy who put up MVP numbers last year, you know, more than fifty home runs, setting a franchise record. His slugging percentage on fastballs is down almost two hundred points, and which is weird because when I looked at his expected slugging against fastballs, which tells you basically how lucky or unlucky he's been. How hard he's hitting the ball, his expecting slugging is actually higher this year than it was last year. So it tells me Matt Olsen is going to be okay here, that there's going to be some return to the mean, if you will, in the positive direction. He's a power hitter. I mean, Matt Olson's got tremendous power. He hits the ball as high and far as anybody. The levers there just work really well for Matt Olson. So I think they're going to be fine again, I probably with six games to make up on a really good Philadelphia team. To me, that's a steep climb. But I wouldn't worry about Matt Olson. And you saw him a lot in the Oakland days too, Joe, I mean your take on him and how he's made himself into a premier slugger.
I think he had one bad year when went off here with Oakland, as I remember. Otherwise, God, you did not want to see him coming up. He hits left these, en Righty's, he hits left these actually really well. You got several good left hand hitters, Tucker with Houston, Albres with Houston, and then of course Olson with Atlanta. They left on left. These guys are really really good. There's no advantage to be gained. None, Sorry, there's no advantage to be gained. So if he's not driving the ball, I'm just curious that this. Is he hurt his hands at all recently or has risked or anything in the recent past. Is there anything been anything going on there?
Yeah, nothing like that.
I mean, like I said, the metrics seem to show that he's still hitting the ball. The exit velo is still the same. Just eight home runs for him. That's, you know, a guy who should be a forty plus home run guy. He's trailing in that department. Just that the ball's not flying over the fence.
Well, if there's no injury involved, if there's nothing with his hands or his wrist, like you said, though, the numbers indicate that you should be well, it's just something. Maybe maybe he's made a more concerned effort this year to just drive the ball more to the parts of the field. Does he more line drive oriented? Is he trying to strike out list? I don't know. But if he's well and he's not too old, he's going to hit home runs. He's going to do it again. Maybe the way he hits some balls well into the wind that has been caught up. Possibly, I don't know. But the guy's good. He's really good, and he's young enough and he's not hurt. He'll hit his home runs well.
I mentioned at the top one of Joe's favorite topics are umpires, and there was news in the umpiring world that we must dive into.
And we'll do that right after this on the book of Joe Angel Hernandez.
Just say that name Joe, and boy, you're gonna get a response from anybody in uniform, especially managers. Angel Hernandez announced that he's done. He's retiring effective essentially immediately. He's had some injuries the last couple of years. Obviously, he's had fights with MLB about the fact that he has not worked a World Series game in years and years and years. Didn't think he was being promoted as he should have. But Angel Hernandez, in his early sixties, is done as a major league umpire, probably the most controversial umpire you know. Well, Joe West was in that book too. He's also no longer an active umpire. But listen, I'm Jared. I'll say it to you I'll mention the name Angel Hernandez and you tell me what comes to mind.
Well, first of all, I liked Angel. I first met him like one on one. We were with the Angels. We were playing in Puerto Rico in two thousand and three, right after the World Series, and he was part of the group down there, Randy Marsha's group, and I remember going out one night and ended up in a casino and you know, dinner and all that kind of good stuff, and I got to meet him and talk to him like one on one. Him and his wife really enjoyed the conversation, so that kind of like started our relationship, you know, one on one human human away from the baseball field. Liked it. Now, on the other hand, he was obviously his judgment was not very good. I don't whether it was on the basis or at home plate it was. I don't exactly know why, but it was inconsistent, There's no question about it. He was often paired with Joe West, and I always thought that Joe was there to protect him a lot. Joe takes some of the heat off of Angel because he could. That was my interpretation. I didn't think that they were able to choose their own umpiring crew guys, I don't wouldn't think so. I remember Joe and Angel always being paired up conversationally. Really good guy like him a lot umpire wise. I was always concerned only because it's not just against you. It's like, you know you're going to get a good or a good call working in your favor against the other team, but then again, you know it's going to come back and bite you too. So the inconsistency was always difficult to deal with because you just knew it. And more recently watching you know, videos of bad calls by him, and you could almost see that the players didn't even respond. They had been coached before. Listen, you're gonna get some really bad calls. Don't react. It's gonna be the same way for both sides, et cetera, et cetera. That's what I thought I was seeing. And I know there was a lot of complaints from Angel and his camp regarding you know, World Series of working at certain times of the year, but I thought they did a good job of not permitting it. Now when it gets to you know, on the basis, his calls could be fixed, but behind home played it would be tough in a in a big game, to going into that game that he's gonna be working to play it be tough, just being honest. So as a human being, as a guy, I really enjoyed our conversations. We had some you know, decent lasts years ago. But as an umpire, that's one thing that I once it's tenured. Once, once you've been tenured, that's the one thing I think should be discussed more is that as an umpire becomes a major league umpire, if his performance isn't good, why is he unable to be sent back to the minor leagues. I mean, I understand unions and everything else, but players can be sent back, Coaches can be fired, managers can be fired. Umpires cannot. I mean, those are the kind of things I think if you put a little bit more pressure on some guys possibly for the situation that they can be sent back, if maybe just right down to their physical appearance, their physical performance, and then you know, the performance regarding balls and strikes become less than when you had been hired. I think that's reasonable to think that you have to be sent back to Triple A and work on some things. Why not? So those are the kind of things within the umpire industry i'd like to see addressed. But I'll defend Angel one on one. I really enjoyed him as an umpire. A lot of what you had heard was kind of true. He just wasn't very good behind a plate.
Yeah, and Major League Baseball has all that data to judge these umpires.
Last year, for instance, Angel Hernandez did work ten games behind the plate. He was the lowest rated umpire in Major League Baseball. He was missing an average of sixteen calls a game behind the plate. I mean, it just it can't happen. But here's what's interesting to me, Joe, and you mentioned maybe there should be some sort of review process as guys performance lags. Looking at this year and so far, looking you know, we're a third a way through the season. Taking all the umpires who've worked at least ten games, that's a pretty good rotation through the league. The five best umpires, I'll give you them an order in terms of their accuracy, Alan Porter, John Lipka, Ben May, mac Tosi, and Mark Rippager. Here's their ages forty six, thirty six, forty two, thirty six, forty three. That's an average age of forty point six for the five best umpires calling balls and strikes.
Now we're going to go to the bottom of the list.
Okay, the lowest rate in terms of accuracy, Manny Gonzalez, Cebe Bunkner, Mark Esterbrook, Hunter wendelstat ages here are forty four, sixty one, fifty two, forty seven and fifty two. I left out I should mention Alfonso Marquez was in that group. Average age of the bottom five fifty one point two. So the top five average age forty point six, bottom five average age fifty one point two. And remember I talked about Angel Hernandez. You know he was in his early sixties here retiring from MLB. There really is a split here, you know, the younger generation. First of all, they have younger eyes, for whatever that's worth. But they've come up through a system where they've been graded by this laser technology. They're calling the laser strike zone, not their quote unquote owned strike zone.
And I think the way they run a game is also different.
The younger umpire you can talk to them. The older umpire is established. He's got you know, this idea of that's his game, the game belongs to him, and he'll run it and adjudicate it the way he sees fit. I think the younger umpires are a lot less like that. So that's what I see, Joe. We see that in postseason assignments, the better rated umpires tend to be the younger ones. I'm not saying that's across the board, but I just gave you a quick example of how the data is showing the younger umpires.
Are grading out better than the older ones.
No surprise. I've been an Alan Porter fan from the moment I met the guy. I told one of the umpire chiefs years ago, go this guy. I love Alan Porter. You could talk to Alan. I thought he's very good at what he did. But y'all, he could talk to him. He didn't lose his mind very quickly, and it was It was very very obvious to me. Ripping Sure. I'm a big Rip fan too. A lot of those guys been may the guys you spoke about, I could easily see why they're in that top. And like you said, a consistent threat among them is that you can talk to these guys. There's not a quick trigger among them. I agree with that one hundred percent. I can't even imagine I mean one thing. First of all, I understand one thing about umpires. You never sit down. Okay, think about it. You never sit down there in the course of a nine to any game that's you're standing up the whole time, whether it's man have played on the bases, and if you're behind the play, how many squads are they doing in one game? That's dang. I mean, as you got older, I mean, when I was sixty, there's no way I want umpire a game. No way am I going to get down on that crouch that many times during the course of a major league game fifty five. I didn't want fifty I didn't want to do it. I mean, I get it, I get it, And a part of it, I'd have to believe is just at some point, these younger guys are still like chasing their vocation a bit. They've always wanted to be a major league umpire, they got a chance to be it, and now they're still relatively young, and they're out there doing this. You know, on a major league level, everything's exciting, so forth and so on, Whereas guys that as you get older, it's not as easy to garner that same kind of enthusiasm I don't think to be able to have to be out there every night. And again, you don't sit down, you don't take a break, You're there the whole game. It's got to be tough. I'm sorry, it's got to be tough. So I get it, and it should be. That's one part of our game that should be relegated to a younger group, even to the point, I'll tell you what I mean, if you wanted to keep older guys around. Sorry, but okay, have played umpires and have just guys that are not permitted to work to play and only work the bases. I know that sounds nuts, but and you don't want to work guys up by having them work to play too often, especially again, if you have a electronic strikes on, it's become moot. But if we're going to continue the way we are, which I hope, then you should maybe maybe possibly not permit certain guys to work the plate, just have them on the basis. I know that sounds crazy. I don't even know how you would do something like that, but if their calls could be fixed. In other words, so that's another Pandora's box being opened, the can of worms. Whatever you want to call it, but quite frankly, man, when you get the lineup umpire assignments before the series begins, I always wanted to know. I wanted to know. Then you wanted to know who your pictures were on the plate day for the umpire coming around, and who that's going to be. And then you try to match up low ball picture, high ball pitch or whatever. Is he wide? Is he narrow? I'm telling you, man, I thought about that because you knew characteristics of each umpire before they got behind the plate. You knew that, and of course you knew your picture and sometimes it became even more difficult before the game. You just knew you're in for an argument that night.
Listen. I'm a big fan of umpires. I think they do an amazing job.
I don't want to see the robo strikes home because I have such appreciation for what they do behind the plate. And I bring up, you know, some of the umpire ratings here and they're not official, it's just a guideline, but I brought it up just essentially to underscore the difference with the younger umpires.
I think, being trained in this regard, they're really good.
So it's one aspect of the game, where you know, I think guys can come in without a lot of experience and be really good calling balls and strikes. So it's more about complimenting the younger guys and knocking the older guys for me, because I have tremendous respect for all of them, and Joe, I'm glad you mentioned the fact that just the physical nature, whether you're younger or older, it's so tough on these guys.
Now.
Think about what catchers are doing with pitch framing, and I know, Joe, when you were coming up, there was an emphasis on how to receive the ball, but it's gone next level now with framing. It's just unbelievable, the emphasis on presenting a ball to make it look like a strike, so you've got that sleight of hand going on behind the plate if you're an umpire. We're seeing velocity go up every year. The average fastball now ninety four point one miles per hour. We're seeing more spin in the game today. The job is tougher than ever. So I have nothing but respect for these guys and I want them to continue calling balls and strikes and not go all automated, because I think we need the human element in the game, there's no question about it.
Would I be in favor.
Of the replay system they tried in the minor leagues or have tried. Yeah, I don't have a problem with maybe checking two or three calls a game. If it's bases loaded ninth inning, you know, three to two count, that's a huge call you want to get right, just like the calls and the bases. But if it's limited to very quickly two or three calls a game, I'm okay with that. But on the whole, you know, these umpires deserve all of our praise because you know, when I'm talking about highly rated or lower rated umpires, it's really not a great difference in their grading when you look at the percentage they get called right, which is amazing when you think about the stuff pitchers that bring into the mound and the way catchers receive the ball.
I've always said, also, and I agree with you, ours is the best officiated game. I think it's the most consistent officiated game of them all. Basketball is impossible. From what I can see. In football, there could be a penalty on every play. So I've often thought that, yes, our umpires are the best of all professional arbiters. I mean, they just they just are. They're really that good. It's just when you really start breaking it down, like we're talking about at some point, man just knowing your own physical limitations as you get older, which you can and cannot do. Of course, there were some I mean even like I'll defend Joe West. Joe West was really good, right, you know, almost at the very end, Joe West was outstanding, and you wanted Joe West. I mean there was a lot of theatrics going on, but you wanted Joe umpiring big games because you knew it was totally unbiased, and you knew that he was very good at balls and strikes. He was really good. He was gonna take charge of the game. He might once in a while do some things that upset you, but nevertheless I felt good when he umpired a game because I thought he was good. I thought he was good. There's like a and I guess the biggest thing is about behind the plate when we start evaluating umpires. I mean, on the basis, you never really worried about whether a guy was good based umpire or not. You're always worried whether or not he was a good plate umpire and that's where the discussions would come in. So that's I think where MLB's umpiring has really gotten better. They have, like you said, the guys that are coming up them and taught in a way where you know, back then umpire the the standards and the way umpires were taught because I was around many of the guys that did that in the minor leagues. There were the teachers and they got the supervisors. It's different, obviously, and I think you are they are more precise, and I agree with that one hundred percent, but it's a tough, tough job. There's still the best in all of sports is our game and how it's umpired. But again, as you get older, man, I don't know why you want to do it. It's just it's just increasingly more difficult, and like you're saying, with the add of velocity and everything else. But last point, catcher's framing. If back then the umpire has had a lot more cachet with this stuff. If you're a catcher was pulling pitches the way catchers pull pitches right, and I promise you you're not going to get them. They would just tell you to stop doing it. They would stop doing it. Now you can't because it's going to be somehow disputed via all the different technology involved. But if an umpire thought you were really pulling stuff, you get that in your ear real quick, don't do it. Stop doing that. And I don't believe that happens anymore today because it's a part of the landscape.
Real quick.
As many times as you were ejected Joe Madden, did Angel Hernandez get you?
Oh yeah, yeah, Angel got me. I think a couple of times. There was one really classical one that actually Joe West got me because it was at that time when they weren't permitting time out and we're playing in Toronto and Carlos Pena, I thought called time. I'm well in advance and Angel's behind the plate and he did not give the time out. Pitches called a strike and I went crazy. So I go out there and I started yelling at Angel and I'm telling and I'm pointing at Joe West simultaneously because I told Angel, do not permit him Joe to umpire for you, basically because they know Joe was really big on that time stuff and he was in charge of that group, so they're not going to put up with that. So I went back and forth with Angel. Then it finally went out to Joe and I told him. You know, I'm not going to tell you exactly what I told him, but pretty much I'm yelling at him for his influence on Angel. That was stet was my argument. And so I got kicked out by Joe via a call made by Angel.
I love it well, the last call always belongs to you, Joe Madden. So how are you going to take us out here for this episode of the Book of Joe?
Yeah, I mean, for me, a real substantial sports figure, personality athlete passed away, Bill Walton. You know, i'd even realize he had been that ill with cancer. You know, growing up as a kid the UCLA group coach Woulden and what he did Walton when he went up to eventually Portland, all the injuries he had to put up with, then eventually how substantial that team became. And then he goes to Boston any places for the Celtics, and how about getting coached by coach Woulden and also read Auerbach, I don't read wasn't the coach, but he was there and probably the reason why Walton even showed up back there. Such an incredible talent, wonderful personality, definitely went by the beat of his own drummer, and I really respect him for that. How he got caught up with the grateful dead, and how he lived his life. I mean, a lot of people probably would not agree with a lot of the stuff, but quite frankly, it didn't matter to him. He was definitely following his own intercompass, his own inner piece and what he thought, And how could you not like the guy? And as an announcer was very colorful and entertaining. But I got this thing from Ralph Waldo Emerson that I think pretty much sums up Bill Walton, and that is to be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. And I think that's what he did. He was able to remain himself to a lot of different situations, and I just know, I think I was in his company one time. But he was such a large personality and he heard a lot of different things, especially when he was injured in Portland, from the locals there, but he stayed with it and he stay true to himself, and I love that. I love when somebody stays true to himself. And that's really what made me a big fan of Bill Walton is how he backed up what he talked about.
Oh that's an excellent call, Joe, and I never met the man, but just based on what I've read and seen heard from Bill Walton, we should all enjoy and love life as much as he did. That's right, that's right, Great job, Joe. We'll see you next time on the.
Book of Joe YouTube brother Thanks.
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