The Book of Joe with Joe Maddon and Tom VerducciHosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci explore the managerial changes with the Rockies firing Bud Black and the Pirates letting Derek Shelton go. Joe looks at the best way to handle the situation while Tom explains why it's so tough to win in Colorado. Onto the new inductees into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. How music has changed so much in 30 years and why Joe thinks things are so different now. Plus, we had an old-fashioned manager meltdown!
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Hey Daron, welcome back.
To the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci, and of course Joe Madden and Joe. I guess it's that time of year, about almost a quarter of the way through the season, and managers are taking the hit and of all places, in Pittsburgh and in Colorado, two teams that nobody expected to contend are saying we need a new voice to try to win more games. Pittsburgh, let Derek Shelton go. Colorado, let's Buddy Black go. After a long time there successfully nine years with the Rockies, starting with the first two making the playoffs. Your quick takes Joe on, You've been there before. Managers getting the pink slip in the course of the season never easy.
It's always a blow to your ego somewhat. And the best way, if you can process it, is to not take it personally and just as long as you can answer the questions that you know you put your program out there, you actually attacked the day in a way that you felt good about. Now, both of these guys are friends. I mean I Shelty was my hitting coach with the Rays back in the two thousand and eight, nine ten whatever in that area. And then Pepe buddy Black and I was served together with the Angels. So these guys are like good friends, and so I feel for them. I feel for them, I feel for their families. However, after saying all of that, I'm happy for them. I mean, both situations got kind of difficult. It's more difficult to imagine Colorado turning it around right now as compared to what the Pirates maybe can't a bit. I don't see them making that much noise for the rest of this year, but we'll see. They have the pitching staff to get a little bit fun. But you know, Pepe in Colorado that was hard to watch. I mean, every day I pick up the paper, I look at the record and they were getting annihilated. Was just like losing. And I'm thinking to myself, how do you go in that locker room? And people have asked me that, and I've given different answers, but it's not easy. It's not easy to do that. You need total support from those people around you in order to survive that moment and also to continue to believe in you. That's part of it. And realize in both situations you look at the manager taking the hit for it, but understand that it's not you want to give them full responsibility for the lack of success, and don't do that. It's not true. There's a lot of other culpable people involved. So in a perverse way, I'm happy, especially for Buddy Black where Derek is younger and he's really trying to get a strong stronghold on being a major league manager. I think he might get another opportunity. But both situations were really difficult to watch.
Yeah, both have real systemic problems in the organization that we really have nothing to do with the manager. We knew going into this year, Joe, you mentioned the Pittsburgh Pirates pitching.
It's good. I wouldn't. It's great.
It's not necessarily deep, but they have really good arms, and we knew that they were way short offensively and really almost nothing was done about that, and they they've turned out to be even worse offensively than we thought. That's not certainly on Derek Shelton. Apparently Derek Shelton was on the last year of his deal and they have Don Kelly there, you know who you know kind of a Jim Leland disciple, I think is a great baseball mine runs their spring training. He's a local kid from a kid and a local guy from Mount Lebanon, and I think they realized this guy was a talent right and an ascending talent in terms of going to be a manager someday, and they wanted it to happen there, so they saw an opportunity. I like the hiring of Don Kelly. I think he is a smart baseball guy. I just don't like the situation there because they just have not invested in the infrastructure to find more offense there. They've I can't even say, Joe, They've tinkered on the margins trying to find offense there. They basically went to the season without first basement. Don't know how you actually do that. They looked into Anthony Rizzo and passed on that. There's a whole lot of things they could have done to help this team. I'm not saying going out there and get Pete Alonzo, but when you're the Pittsburgh Pirates, you have to understand you have Paul Skins, a trend, you know, transcending generational type pitching talent. You know, a Steven Strasburg type arm and the clock is already ticking as to when he leaves the Pittsburgh Pirates. Similar to Garrett Cole, You've got to take advantage of this narrow window here. One thing I always say, Joe, these teams Colorado and Pittsburgh and the like, stop talking to me about trying to build a sustainable winner. You are not the Los Angeles Dodgers. You don't have the resources to have a quote unquote sustainable winner.
That's just execut you speak there.
Try to find a core group when you've got someone like Skins to build around you knows, send in a two to four year window around a cor young players before they get too expensive and have to move on, and then try to keep the down cycles as short as possible with the next group behind them. But you're not going to build a sustainable winner in places like Pittsburgh and Colorado.
Yeah, and just backtracking just a bit on what you were talking about the first basement situation. I mean, we've talked about that earlier in the year. It's getting to the point where analytics believes you could put anybody at first base. I really believe that, and I think for their perspective. They bought into that theory also, so I think that's part of the reason why they just thought, oh, well, we'll find somebody that can hit a little bit there, catch the ball a little bit there, but we're not going to pay for that particular service. Yeah, I listen. It's they can't compete Dodgers on a bunch of different levels, right from the very top with Andrew and the kind of dough that they do have. You know, I may be naive with all this, but I'm rooted in the research and development component of our game. I mean, for me, in a place like Pittsburgh is all about research and development. I mean, I would put so much emphasis on my minor league system, my scouting system, and getting and building this group from within that's going to permeate and continually be able to supplant or replace people that, like you're talking about, may leave in several years. And then with that, that's when you more judiciously ring in that free agent and again by a couple of middle class guys. Just get a couple of the middle class in there, that salary range where it's a little bit uncomfortable maybe, but knows how to play baseball can influence the rest of your team in a way that's going to be beneficial down the road. So I still believe in that method. I mean, look at the Rays. I think that's what the Race kind of do all the time. I think Milwaukee's kind of in that group right now. Both are relatively successful, And again, what is success for a lot of these groups anymore? That's the part that's really confusing. Being successful. You talked about sustainable, but that's probably they're just trying to be five hundred on an annual basis. What is sustainable for me? It's like every year I would go to Springteter I mean every year, maybe maybe not my first year with the Race, but maybe not quite the second. But I always talk about the playoffs and then I will talk about the World Series in the same breath. I don't think they really believe that stuff. And if you did believe it and not just give it lip service, what do you do then to be a participant at the end of the year, being part of the dance, being part of the tournament, whatever you want to say? So I listen to me. I love the concept of building from the bottom up. I love the minor leagues, and I love scouting. I without being there, I don't know, you know, what they think of it and and how they're really applying the tenants of baseball to their developmental process. But places like that have to not kind of they have to be fully immersed in that. And and I don't I don't know how much they are. You know better than I do, because you know you got your figure on the pulse a bit better than I. But I my Pittsburgh in those places, I got to start right there.
I agree with you one hundred percent.
And that's why we need to talk about the Rockies now, because let's start with this. This is sort of a disclaimer you have to give them. I think it's tougher to win in Colorado than any other place. Right when you're playing at altitude, it's just abnormal baseball. So you have to start with the fact that they're playing uphill from the start, pitches just don't move as much. The recovery on the physical taxing on the body is just is something that other teams and players do not have to face.
So start with that.
With that mind, then you should have the biggest most robust analytics department a player development apartment in all of baseball.
They don't. They have one of the smallest analytical departments.
They don't have a scout in the Far East where you should be getting players and at least being in that market, which they are not. You know, to me, Joe, you have to build that team around freakish athletes with strength just to survive at altitude, right. And if you wanted to go out there and buy players in the market, like Chris Bryant, that's a mistake because you're banking that players who made their their money and their their reputation at sea level, that there's a lack of predictability in their numbers once they go and play in Colorado. And it's not just you know, batting average, home runs RBIs. It's how they hold up in the grind of a season, especially for pitchers. So that's why it's more important than ever that you develop a certain type of player. And I'll go back to what Jim Leland said about coors Field. They built the wrong ballpark there. They built it too darn big. There's too much space in the outfield.
He said.
They should have built another Fenway Park with small fences and large walls. Because there's too many hits that have fall on like gigantic outfield. Nobody ever gets thrown out on the bases. You can walk from second to home on any kind of a base hit, and that works against the Rockies as well. So you have to populate that roster which is freakish athletes who can cover ground, hold up to the grind of a season, and then you had the whole seesaw effect of going back between home and the road because the balls are moving completely differently back and forth through the course of a twenty six week season. So that's why building from within is even more important than ever for the Rockies.
Tommy, I cannot disagree with anything you said. That's a great recap. I think all the points that you made, and when you talked about Jimmy Leland's definition of that ballpark, immediately I thought about the Dudley Dome in El Paso. I managed in Midland, Texas, and the Deadly Dome was kind of like that. The Deadly Dome, which was almost on the Mexican border, was short left field and was almost like a square or rectangle, and there was the outfield wall did not bow out. It was straight across straight across from the left field line to the center field area, and man, the ball would just it would fly. It flies in El Paso like would fly in Colorado, and it was a really difficult ballpark to manage it. I mean, as a manager in that ballpark, I always said, you just try to get your team in position to kick the last field goal. The same was in Midland. Midland, Texas are the same way. At that time was a one tier wall. They eventually built it up into a higher Fenway like wall. For my first year, first two years there, I think the wall was not high. So pop ups are going out of the ballpark. Is really managerially, I'm telling you, man, it's very difficult to be strategic. It just is because you could do all the right things and a guy could get jammed and the balls popped up and all of a sudden, the wind blows it and it's gone out of the ballpark. So it is. My point is it is a tough place to play and to really I'm just talking from the managerial seat. It's hard to be consistent with your approach because what you believe is going to work a lot of times maybe could have worked, but the elements really do conspire against you, and that's just that that ballpark and then you so brought up and I totally believe this. When you go on the road, you get used to playing one kind of game at that ballpark, and all of a sudden, you go to sea level teams was Shreveporto, Tulsa, or Beaumont. Beaumont was a double deck ballpark with the and the ball didn't carry in. The mosquitoes were like little Cessana's flying in out there were so big. So you go to those ballparks and the ball didn't go. So you've been teaching yourself at home to try to get the ball in their lift the ball whatever. Then you go on the road and play these ballparks and if you tick that same approach there, out you're out. You're out. The ball's not going anywhere. You're out. So you have to play two completely different kind of games. And that's that's not just that's not fantasy, that's reality. So again, you're right, I mean, build your whatever these athletes are, whatever you want them to look like, whatever kind of game you're gonna play, step outside of the box. You can't think the way the Dodgers think you can't think the way any Sea level team thinks. You just can't. You can't. It's a dip. I actually played in Boulder for two summers in Boulder, Colorado, right up the street. It should be a destination place if you set this up right, we're talking about like far East. I believe that they don't even go there because they think they don't have a chance to lure anybody to come to play in Colorado. I would bet that's part of the conversation, no question. But you've got to get beyond these walls that you're building and understand and whatever you believe is right to do this and win, to hear, do that, attack that, stay away from the way everybody else is thinking, because your situation is that unique.
I actually think Joe the Rockies go too far in terms of not doing what other teams do. I think it's the most insular organization in baseball.
You know, Bill Schmid, the GM that has been there forever.
Chris Forbes, the player development guy, has been there forever. Warren Shaefer, who was just named the manager to replace Buddy Black, has been there nineteen years. He's been with no other organization as a player minor league manager or major league coach need to go find the brightest minds out there, whether it's the Yankees, the Rays, the Dodgers, the Guardians, and find out what they don't know. You know, you know, one of the things that smart people really do is admit what they don't know, and they don't have to be the smartest person in the room. They compliment their own intelligence with people who can kind of complete the circle. And I don't think the Rockies do that. I think they really need to expand their horizons. Doesn't mean you're copying anybody else, but asking the question, what do other teams know about winning on the margins that we don't know. I don't know that the Rockies stand for anything, Joe, I really don't know if they have a philosophy.
You know.
Bill Schmidt said, you know, guys are playing hard. First of all, Playing hard to me is not a compliment. That's a bare minimum for a professional athlete. And he said, guys like the direction that we're going. Really, you're the worst organization in baseball for the last seven years. You're coming off the last two seasons have been the worst years in Rockies franchise history. You're heading towards probably the worst ever, maybe worse than White Sox last year, and you like the direction.
The team is going. Don't give me that.
You've got to really have a complete mindset change here going forward.
You are not going in the right direction.
Yeah, you got to be very very honest about it. I mean your explanation also, again is very good. I wasn't looking at it from that perspective regarding going outside the box or being insular at the same time. I mean, I was just really talking about the way they're like you're talking about the way they're going to play the game. But yeah, they need to stretch their minds there a little bit too, to be that disingenuous to consider or try to portray the fact that we are headed in the right direction. We like what's going on out there? How do you say that with a straight face, Because it's not just this year. This year, it's even more exaggerated. But this has been going on for a bit. I know some of those guys you're talking about there, and of course, like we talked about bod he's gone. But there's really a moment of reckoning there and it always starts at the top it always does. Ownership then comes on down and I don't know the man in charge there, but that really needs to be considered exactly what they're saying to the rest of the group, what they believe in, and they're the ones who could have to elicit the change. You talk about people, gms, whatever, managers, But it's always going to start at the top on what's permitted from there, So the moment of reckoning has to start there and then filter on down to the rest. And it's got to be an open, honest approach, and everybody's got to be culpable, and everybody's got to listen to, like you said, different thoughts and ideas in order to fix this thing. Because this thing, I mean, I'm into like the quick fixed kind of stuff, but this is going to take a bit based on because I'm not seeing guys playing hard. I've been watching him intentionally and I see a lot of like really non competitive at bats. I see some horrible defense. I see a lot of bad things there. So I'm not seeing what Billy talked about.
Yeah, I mean, listen, it's it's e You're right, it's not going to be a quick fix.
There's no doubt about it.
There needs to be changed, And listen, I love Buddy as much as you do, but I understand why it change is made, and you're probably right. They probably did him a favor by letting him go. But something else is going on in baseball. When I look at the Rockies, Joe, in the first fifty years of the one hundred and sixty two game schedule, there were seven teams that lost one hundred and ten games. I'm pretty sure the Rockies are going to lose one hundred and ten this year. They will become the eighth team in the last twelve years to lose one hundred and ten games. So seven teams in the first fifty years and now more than that in just the last twelve thirteen seasons. I'm not sure what it is, but the bottom is getting worse in baseball. You know, not everybody is just rebuilding and you know, stripping things down the way the Astros bit did back in twenty thirteen. But it's not a good look for baseball to have non competitive teams because last year, you know, the Seattle Mariners looked at the schedule and said, we lost the playoffs because the AL Central was beating up on the White Sox, and I'm telling you the same thing is going to happen this year. The National League West teams are absolutely going to destroy the Colorado Rockies. They're eleven and two so far, and if you lose a game to the Rockies, you feel like you're losing, you know, losing ground in your division, and probably there's going to be a playoff spot decided the National League because somebody had more games against the Rockies and took advantage of them.
Yeah. I mean I've been part of that too. The NL Central couple years ago with the Cubs in Cincinnati was awful and we did we you did beat up on them. And when there are teams like that, you, like you said, if you lose to them, it's almost like it's almost kind of like the end of the world for a moment. It just it just shouldn't happen, you believe that. So, yes, all those tremendous imbalances within divisions could really create an advantage. And like you said, do not permit a team maybe that's more worthy to get to the playoffs only because their schedule wasn't as advantageous. I would, you know, I'm just talking about this now for me, this is my personal way of doing things. I'd love to be able to just be like a fly on the wall, not a guy in the stands for at least a week, two weeks to watch a team in order to tell you exactly what I think. I mean, this is all perception based on I watch videos, I watch the games on TV a little bit, and I know people and I read. But there's nothing like being in the stands and really observing all this stuff. I mean, I'm an eyeball guy, and I still believe in the eyeballs, and I believe if you train dryballs to see things and you've had some experience that it could really be beneficial. So we've talked about a lot of different reasons why this one hundred and ten lost thing is really disturbing and really falls under the category what's in the best interest of the game, which used to be really applied often back in the day. When I first heard that, when was it Bully hw and Kelly right? I mean, the fact that did not permit a trade or whatever because it was not in the best interest of the game. I would love to see that phrase being brought back and implemented and enforced because when you're a fan of these teams, I'm watching like I watched videos and you see actually like people walking in the gates and they probably show like the small gaggle that walks in. You have to answer to this group of people that are spending money and whatever in their every year. They you know, the hope of at least competing, which I still hate that just at least competing phrase. But there's got to be some kind of edict from the top that it's got to be more than just showing up and collecting whatever. There's got to be something done in the best interest of the game, because it's not. You're absolutely right.
One last note on the Rocky is speaking of eyeballs, You got to give those fans credit. Man. It's still, you know, an attraction for people in Denver to go out to Coors Field and watch a baseball game. It's a great venue, great plays to watch a game. You know, as bad as they've been, Joe, they still have a really loyal fan base. And last year, for instance, losing more than one hundred games, they outdrew half of the playoff teams, including the Mets and the Orioles. So Yeah, there are tendances down fifteen percent since pre COVID levels, but it's not like it's really cratered. So I got to give those fans credit, and you know, maybe the Rockies for their ballpark experience that it's still a destination for people to go. You know, as pure baseball fans, they should be demanding more though in terms of competitiveness. Hey, we're going to take a quick break on the Book of Joe. We get back Joe. I want to talk about the Hall of Fame, but not the Baseball Hall of Fame. To do that right after this, Welcome back to the Book of Joe. This is one of our favorite topics, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Sure you're going to go there.
Did you see the inductees?
I did not. I'm sorry. How about on.
The first ballot Chubby Checker he's in. I can't believe he wasn't in before. He's eighty three years old and he's still touring.
Joe, I love that. I remember the Twist when it came out. We all had to do the twist and it became the Peppermint Twist eventually, and it was such a such a thing back in that day, and and the tight suit with the thin tie and all that stuff. It was so great, It was so cool and it was wonderful. Was I remember that I was at Our Lady of Grace at that time when I think it all broke, and it was wonderful.
And also on the first ballot they were voted in. I'm happy about this one. Bad Company. Yeah, you got to like that job. I mean, that's classic guitar riffs, you know, put the windows down, put the stereo up.
I just did that yesterday. I mean I didn't have Bad Company on, but I got this really great system in my room over here to the left, and I was I stretched in the morning. I got this great carpet to stretch on, and I put some albums on. I got these big old Sirwin Vega nineteen eighty speakers and a nice Yamaha Yamaha amp and I did put on Springsteen. I put Asbury Park and I also put on Pink Floyd Real Loud, real loud. It was outstanding. I put one more and I can't remember, Oh, roberta flat the first time ever saw your face on this brand new album. First it was a pink album, but it was brand new, was right out of the container, out of the the album cover. It was so clear. I could not you forget. Sometimes you put on these other albums that slightly used, you get that little scratch as it comes on, like with the Spring Seen album. I got that little scratch, scratch scratch, and then eventually here it comes Bruce. But the roberta Flac first time ever on a Pink album, never been played before. Wow, this sound was incredible. So that's the part of the past. And I had to get up up the floor, changed the album, turned it over. H oh the other Who I put the Who on? Also, Yes, it was but real lout, real out, because I'm in a spot, it doesn't matter, nobody's gonna hear me. And it was great. I wanted to get pumped up for the day and I did well.
Done better than coffee. You're almost as good as coffee. And also in the category of musical influencer, Warren Zevon. Now a lot of people think, oh were walls of London right Warren Zevon, Man, he was so much more than that. One of the great singers, songwriters, and I know Joe this this goes back to a sweet spot for you talking about southern California, the LA scene there in the nineteen seventies.
Get this.
On his first album, he had Jackson Brown, Steven Nicks, Lindsay Buckingham, Don Henley, Glent Fry, Linda Ronstadt, Bonnie Raitt, Phil Everley, and Carl Wilson. Come on, I mean, that's an all star team. He was just connected to so many people, so many people wanted to be around Warren zevonn He was such a talent. Probably one of your favorite songs, Poor Poor Pitiful Me.
That was his song. Yeah, he wrote a ton of songs for Linda Ronstad.
You just just I'm just that's the name. When you mentioned all that, folks, I got admit. I've always had a crush on this woman and still do. I know she's in the Parkinson situation now, but to me, she was the voice of that particular generation. To this day, she comes on to radio. I listened to Serious Letter, Pandora, or I'll put her station on. She stops me every time, her range, her attitude. You know, growing up in Tucson. She conciones Papa, which pasre papa, the song Mexican songs that she did a long long time. I mean I listen. I could listen to this woman all day launch her voice, I mean, from her to Lady Gaga. For me, she was the best. She did it the best. She was this little person with I mean, for me, one of the best voices I've ever heard. When I got to the Angels, how about this is all naive? I am, this is my second time through. She's from Tucson, right, so I ARTI Raino's from Tucson. So I get the spring training in twenty twenty whatever it was, and I say, hey, do you happen to know Linda Ronstad? Saying that you're both from Tucson. He just looked at me, like, what are you nuts? Because I was hoping that he could set up and arrange where I could meet Linda Ronstad or africame to a game. I didn't realize to what extent she was ill enough that she couldn't do that, But I was that much impressed that I've always wanted to meet her because to me, she's where it begins and ends for female vocalists.
Yeah, just a beautiful voice.
Warren Zevon, by the way, he was born in Chicago and then he went to LA and he dropped out of high school to go to New York to try to make it as a singer songwriter. As a kid, he studied piano under igor Stravinsky. How's that for training, So he didn't really pan out. Things didn't pan out in New York so much so that's when he went back to LA and he roomed with Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham.
That's how this started that arrangement there.
But I'm always a fan, Joe of great musicianship and especially great writing. You know those singer songwriters. I mean it almost sounds archaic just that phrase, like who is a singer songwriter?
Now?
And people are gonna tell me yea, they know this guy, that guy, this person, this woman.
I'm sure.
But back in the day, talking to seventies and eighties, the world, the musical world was populated with singers songwriter geniuses. And that really was Warren z more in Zevon. When you go back and look at his work, I mean, lawyers, guns and money, fantastic, excitable boy. I mean the opening line of Where Rolls in London was chosen by people in England as the best opening line of any song. I mean, it's just amazing that the words he put to paper and then to zong, coming from a.
Writer himself, I cannot agree with you more. I mean, I've offered made these arguments. I started out even the Stones, probably the first group that made an impression on me. Can't get no satisfaction. And then of course the Beatles, and then here came Simon and Garfunkel, who I still to this day listened to almost I listened to them as often as I watched Seinfeld. Pretty much. I'm not always impressed with Simon and Garfunkel. Then you can move it all the way through. Man brought up Jackson Brown, you bring up the Crosby, Stills, and Nash loved all these guys, the Almond Brothers. But it is, it's every one of the groups. We can name them all. They were all distinctively unique to their sound and their messaging. That's what I think is missing today, because when I understand, there's a small group of people writing most of the songs today, both lyrically and the song itself, the music of the song, So that I think is what's missing. That's and again we've I made the comp with cars. I mean, I'm looking at where there's gonna be like three D cars being made right now. They're gonna print them out of three D and then make these cars. I mean, come on it. Really, we constantly want to subtract the human element from everything, and while we do this, you get a ubiquitous sameness. That's it's all that you're seeing there. There's a lack of imagination. And I'll argue that with anybody. So it's easy to turn back the clock that group right their sixties, seventies, eighties, and then to the nineties. And eventually as we continue to go forward, we go backward because we become more of the same and less of individuals, and we lack the charisma. Cannot agree with you more man the songwriting, music words they matter, and individuality, individual sounds matter, as opposed to everybody just trying to synthesize the same stuff all the time. Which does bother me. And why do we listen to oldies station and not contemporary stations because they're not nearly as interesting.
Think about when you got an album back in the seventies or eighties, especially the seventies, right and you had the liner to the album right, and you were just praying the lyrics are on there, and you would read those lyrics like you were reading poetry.
Right.
You could enjoy the song without actually hearing the music because you got lost in the words. And I don't know about you, Joe. If I got an album and it didn't have the song lyrics on the line, I was disappointed.
Man.
I wanted to see the words.
Agreed, And there's also a photo too, But you're pointing out I mean, this is my own opinion, but there's got to be a certain I don't the words suffered maybe not the right word, but to earn it or have failed or constantly failed matters. I think when you're becoming an artist and you're attempting to do something, whether it's writing, singing or whatever, but primarily writing putting pen to paper, there's a lot of life experience involved in that. There's a lot of you're not good enough involved in that. There's a lot of being turned down, maybe a broken relationship, and all of that tragedy in your life involved in that. So I don't know that that's tapped into today as much as it had been. I think that's the really roote essence of all this wonderful artistry we've had in the past. Things were earned. I don't know that. And yeah, this is not an age thing. This is being I think I'm kind of pragmatic and open minded about this stuff. I really believe the group that came up back when they did the first the first I've talked about is the first album, the first book. Wow, I've always wanted that one because to me, that's like all these years pent up years that they were writing down in notebooks, jogging things down on napkins, and all of a sudden they get this opportunity, they put it together, and all of a sudden they got to hit. That to me is really the root and soul of a lot of these artists. And that's why you know, the first book, like John Grisham's rout in a thousand books, but I have to go back to the original books with him, the firm whatever and read that stuff, because that's that's who these people are. And that's really After that it becomes more industrial. You got to like, you gotta do this, I got to keep it going. But those first moments, man, those are the ones that really impressed me. And that's why I really still listen to this stuff. It never gets old. It's timeless. There's universality about it that will never grow old. Our classic rock today is equivalent to me, is of the classical music you know, back Beethoven, Wagner, whatever, back in the today. Timeless. It's going to stand a test of time, this particular era, I'd say between the sixties into the seventies for sure. Maybe it's going to dash into the eighties a bit, but there's a timelessness about it that well, there's always going to be an OLDI station playing this one hundred years from now.
The Struggle, right, we talk about it a lot here on the book of Joe.
The Struggle and you know the upside to struggling and listen, you talk about classical music. Brahms took twenty years to write his first symphony. Twenty years to write his first symphony. And I'll give you a couple of lines. I have to do this from Warren Zevon. I mentioned were wolves of London. I saw a were wolf with a Chinese menu in his hand, walking the streets of Soho in the rain. He was looking for the place called Lee. Who folks going to get a big dish of beef chow Maine.
And here's one of my favorites, Joe.
We buy books because we believe we're buying the time to read them.
I mean, come on, I mean I see that. To me is that's a person that really is just observing everything around him and everything around him. All these observations he's taken the heart and then maybe jogging this down or it's it's it's embedded in his mind. So when it comes down to, like you said, pen the paper, they just start coming out because he's had these life experiences where he really did pay attention. Whereas today we're gonna rely on AI. We're going to rely on mechanics to write for us, to create for us. And I mean, you know, reading about you know, uh the uh not Millennium gen Z, guys and women all of a sudden they want them. They're gonna they're okay with relationships based on AI. It's like it's insanity where we're going right now and not really realizing we're spinning out of control with all this crap. There warn't xenons of the world. I mean, this is the stuff that gosh, I mean again, timelessness. You wish it would never go away. There's got to be a moment in the near future hopefully that really permits us to not get caught up in this hamster wheel of so called progress where we're becoming less and less important as human beings. Our minds are becoming less and less important because relying on all this other stuff to conclude for us, and I can't stand that, quite frankly, for somebody else to conclude for me, or a machine to conclude for me is really repulsive.
I'm with you, and I think I don't know how this changes, but we really have to de emphasize putting the emphasis on convenience and speed and hacks. Right, I really lost the value of kind of that stick toitiveness, where the reward is putting in the work and the payoff at the end rather than how quickly can I get there? What hacks can I use, whether it's AI, whatever it is. People are in such a hurry, and that includes music making, right, I mean, there's formulas, there's algorithms, Just plug it in, sell a few albums, You're done.
Nobody stays together anymore, so.
The idea that things are worth working for I don't know where along the line.
We lost that job, but we've got to get it back.
There's a tremendous amount of value in failure. It's don't overlook it. Ever. You primarily learn through your failures as opposed to your positive outcomes. So I am so about that. I could recap boringly all the different times that I failed in order to get to become a major league manager. Was a fifty one, has some good runs after that, But I could recap all the awful moments where you barely could afford Christmas for your kids. You know, you can't even transportation back home this ye your parents over holidays cost so much. You put on the credit card anyway because you had to do it, or even the credit card build it. But I know what's happening now that you did as a kid to order to put a couch in your house whatever, then you have to pay these exorbitan rates. I mean, we all done it. It's still happening right now. But you got to go through these really high levels of failure to become a success. I believe, and I don't think you just suggested. I don't know that today's world really wants to take the time to fail they want to go right to success, and it's no different than guys getting major league managerial jobs. I'm just going to jump to baseball without having the opportunity to fail on a minor league level or fail in the scouting profession where you look at your draft list that you turn in and you find out that Wow, like Jeene Thompson said, don't put the guy on the list unless you really want to, because that's the guy they're going to draft for you. These are like valuable lessons learned that we need to appreciate again, and that to me would be the bedrock the foundation of really rebuilding all of this to the point where you could see the light at the end of the tunnel and you could feel good about yourself because you really accomplish something through your own thoughts and deeds based on your own life experiences.
Amen.
And with that, we're gonna take a quick break on the Book of Joe. We get back and we're going to continue with our manager theme. I saw an old school managerial.
Rant the other day. Boy, I missed those.
We'll talk about that right after this.
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
One of your former players, Rocco Baldelli gave me an entertaining rant the other day, Joe, I'm doing a game for Fox in Minnesota. Adrian Johnson was the homeplate umpire, and I didn't think he was having that bad of a game. Actually, I hadn't noticed anything. You know, sometimes you're following along and you're like, man, this guy's off today, or this guy's really good today. It was just kind of non the script. It was fine by me, but not apparently to Rocco Baldelli. There was one strike call that he especially didn't like. I'm sure it wasn't the first time he piped up. So he comes running out and boy, a lot of his adjectives started with the letter F. I mean, this went on for a while, and just to cap it off, it was perfect theater. You just don't see this anymore. As he's walking towards the dugout at the end of his day, thrown out of the game by injury, Johnson he takes his cap off and he dramatically flings it over his head, just.
Like by the way Mary Tyler Moore.
Since we were in Minneapolis, it was a beautiful thing. We don't see that really, really, I don't think often enough. Listen, you don't want to encourage, you know, just for the sake of going out there making a scene, but why not blow off some steam.
It's part of the game's tradition. What's interesting to me, Joe.
Is Adrian Johnson's previous game before this one was in New York. Yankees Padres and Mike Shilt had come out of the dugout, and before he went into his tirade to Adrian Johnson behind the plate, he threw away his lineup card. Then he took off his glasses and threw away his glasses, being careful enough to make sure he threw them into the grass so they weren't scratched. I'd never seen a guy to get himself ready for his argument whip off his glasses and throw them away. So Rocco, Mike Schilt, thank you for that, although Adrian Johnson probably not thanking you.
Yeah, I was watching that game with the Yankees, and I think Shilty was right. Beyond that, I'm so proud of Roco. Providence was said win Socket Woon Socket Rhode.
Island one socket Rocket.
Yeah, I mean all the folks back home had to be very proud. I mean Rocco is one of the most civil members of the Major League Baseball family, and I love the fact that he lost his mind a little bit. Roco was one of my all time favorites. It's just just on a side note to me, if that guy did not get hurt, he'd have been like one of the top ten players of his era, no question. He was that talented. Every part of the game was that good, and nobody talks about it. He was that good. It says that's the biggest shame ever that he the mitochondria concerns that he had and how it kept him down. But I as a manager on the field, I would watch him and I thought he defined Joe Demagio to me, only probably a little bit bigger, stronger, possibly, But the way he moved and everything he did was that good. And it's too bad we got cheated out of all that. But all the managers, yeah, you got to lose your mind. Sometimes you have to lose your mind. You can't keep it inside, and it's got to be extemporaneous. I mean there's times I did plan those things a little bit because I just had enough and I said, the first opportunity, I'm out there, But the best ones are the extemporaneous moments when you weren't. You're just in there enjoying the game, and all of a sudden you just lose your mind. And the players do appreciate that. I really believe that too, But you got to get it off your chest afterwards. I'd go inside have a shot of Crown Royal or something like that, just to calm you down, because you've got to talk to the press afterwards. But it's that intense, man, you get going like that, you're shaken. You come up the field, you think yourself that I really say that, But just then you stay to the club, just give me, give me a shot of something that I got to settle down. And that's just the way. It's just the truth, and it's a beautiful part of the game, and I'd love to see more of it. But with all technology involved and more tech involved in our game, the less emotion you're going to see. So when you guess to the point of automatic ball strike stuff, and if that becomes even more common and useful are utilized, you're going to see even less of this. The more tech involved, the less emotion from humans.
Yeah, just a couple of notes on Rocco as well. Bill Belichick called him the best athlete he ever saw.
I mean, he was that special.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, And he's huge, as you know, Fish fan, the band Fish. I mean, he's been to a gazillion concerts. And I mentioned to Roco that Fish actually was on the ballot for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They won the fan vote, which is just a small portion that it's basically a committee that makes the final vote, but didn't get in. And as Rocco said, knowing Fish as an all fan, it's like they're probably very good with that, the fact that they didn't get in.
But you mentioned the strike zone, Joe.
It's interesting because what I'm hearing and noticing myself, and maybe some of this is confirmation bias. The strike zone on the edges, especially the bottom, is not the same as before. And you know when the umpires were graded before, they had a buffer essentially the size of a baseball, like a five inch buffer.
So if the ball was five inches just below.
The hairline of the strike zone and they called it a strike, that counted as a correct call. And they're trying to ace the tests, so to speak, because they get graded after each game. And what they've done now after they had the trial run in the spring training with the Challenge system, is now calling a much more literal strike zone, so that buffer zone is gone. They're anticipating the fact that Challenge system will be in play for next year, So you're training the umpires now to make sure you're literally calling a zone with no buffer zone. And what pitchers and managers and hitters are noticing is that fifty to fifty ball now is not being called a strike that's on the edges or maybe just slightly off the edge, because that's the way AI is going to see it next year.
So far, it.
Hasn't translated to me in terms of more offense. Batting, average, run scored, slugging are slightly down from last year's number. Now we have to give it time because in the summer we know offense goes up a little bit.
But that's what I'm seeing here. Maybe it's anecdotal.
I think there is some data that teams have that show the strike zone is a little bit smaller this year, but it's all for the coming of AI and the Challenge System.
How about Chase, I mean that would be part of it too. I mean, okay, maybe that it's a little bit more finite within the strike zone, but how much more are people or hitters swinging outside of the strike zone based on breaking balls and of course velocity just too, because you're saying you would think smaller zone, greater offense or production, but you're not necessarily seeing anything substantial. So I wonder if chase is up based on a lot of other elements, that's kind of mitigating the smaller strike zone or making it moot the fact that it doesn't really matter. Just again, when it comes down to smaller strike zone, if you're locating, if the ball is located well in a good spot, it's still not going to matter a whole lot, I don't think, But you're right. I mean, the five inch buffer was a joke. We knew it was a joke, but then again, it was the same for everybody, and every umpire was different. Man, we skip those heat maps and you would see the heat maps knowing where the umpire was more liberal. And we've talked about this also where right handed picture versus the right hand hitter, a left handed hitter than a left handed pitcher versus left nd righty. The umpire had like four different strike zones based on all these different moments with the handedness of the pitcher and the batter, so you had to look at all these different things, and you wanted your catcher to adjust accordingly. Some guys are really tight on the inside edge were which I normally saw was tight on the inside edge right on right, more liberal away as an example, and then like sweeping pitches away like left on left, maybe more liberal outside on a breaking ball, you would just try to find wherever that edge was. You try to find it based on the heat map. So they're trying to in a good way. They're trying to make this more uniform. I understand that completely. But even though the strike zone may be more finite or consistent, I'm curious about off how often guys are chasing outside of the zone compared to the past, That would be that would be interesting to me.
Yeah, that number actually hasn't changed all that much. It's traditionally around thirty one percent. Last year was thirty one point eight. This year's thirty one point one, So the chase rate really hasn't gone up. Where the game has changed now is pitch shaping, though I mean, we talk all the time here about there's so much more spin in the game today. Maybe they're just taking these pitches and just trying to, you know, zero in on something in the zone. But the chase rate itself is pretty much been kind of held standard.
But I agree with you.
It's me the hitting environment is so hard in baseball today, pitchers just keep getting an edge on hitters.
In my book, how.
About like ex velocities like this ball put in plays or anything different on that.
I have to check that out. It's a good question. I'm not sure that has changed. I wouldn't expect that to change all too much. Are you thinking about torpedo bets.
I'm just thinking in general, I mean, why there shouldn't be a significant You would think there'd be a little bit of a jack based on the fact that the strike zone is being called differently and hitters should have a little bit better edge in regards to if there's not more chase, you think they'd hit the ball more consistently well, based on the fact that they're not getting the pitchers aren't getting so much on the edges. I'm just just curious. But we talked about this, and it's true, the hitters really get very little analytically from the world where the pitcher and defense they're pretty much the superstars. They get this stuff that really does make a difference.
Well, wraps up are edition of you know, Manager Check as far as it goes, because you talked about two teams changing managers that you know, nobody really thinks of them as playoff teams. So I'm not sure they're chasing wins as much as they're just you know, kind of giving the door to somebody who didn't have a lot to do with where these teams are at.
In terms of the Pirates and the Rockies.
I'm not sure if you had anything in mind when you chose your thought of the day, Joe, but when it came to managers, but what do you have for us today to and this edition of the Book of Joe.
I think I'm attacking AI. We were there a little bit, yeah, you know, and I there's a couple but the one that I really from Gertrude Stein, it just the one that really stuck for me today was about where we we what we see is not exactly what's going on. It's kind of a thought and it came up with this. Everybody gets so much information all day long that they lose their common sense. So, you know, we're so flooded. I mean, I was thinking about, like, I'm I'm a I'm a culprit right now. Really, I watch a lot of news on television, I do. I watch that more than I watch baseball, which is like ridiculous. I watch news even more than Seinfeld right now, which is unbelievable. But they're getting We're flooded with so much information all day long, and of course there's bias involved. You've got to choose your bias how it lines up to your own lens of the world. But why you do that. I think it's really important to absolutely listen to the other side, and when I do, I find out that it really kind of galvanizes what I do believe by listening to what I believe is the side that's not making any sense. But there's so much information that I think that people are so influenced by what we're hearing that they fail to make up their own minds. That's I think that's the point I was trying to get at. So I really would encourage and I believe it's you know, when we take in all this stuff because it's coming from so many different directions. Where in the past we had a way for the morning newspaper, you were too busy during the day to listen to any kind of news radio kind of stuff. At the end of the day, there was like Huntley Brinkley at the end of the day or whatever. There's three News, Walter Cronkite that was your news, and maybe the local news at the end of the night, possibly, But there wasn't all this glut of constantly streaming news and information to us to the point where we're becoming so inundated with that it's hard to make up your own mind anymore. And I just I've always been about that, make up your own mind. We've kind of touched on that when I was ranting about the Rockies doing what they think is right. So I'm just I would just hope that we continue to use our common sense, our own sense of our group of sensibilities that we've nurtured over years based on where we're from and who we grew up around. I just see that as not being as important anymore, and I think it needs to be more important so that we can stay grounded and what we believe in and not be afraid to argue and disagree and with somebody that you totally don't believe their set of values whatever, have that argument, but they go for a beer or sit down and have a nice glass of wine and understand. It's important to be able to do that, to have counter arguments, counter completely polar opposite kind of views of the world. But still at the end of the day, if you've had this good discussion, let's let's just agree to disagree at this point, let's go have that beer and talk about the Seinfeld episode I watched last night.
Well, Joe, hopefully when you're getting this this this news fix associated that you have right that not too much of it is actually pundits because we've lost the what I call it media literacy, you know, to understand the difference between news and blather, because the news is presented as blather with these so called pundits, right, that's the danger, and we really have to start teaching children in school. I'm not being joking about this, how to differentiate, to use critical thinking and not just turn your brain off and listen to people blather with hot take opinions and accept that as quote unquote news that's dangerous.
Yeah. And then and it's it's formulating opinions, and it's it's creating more polarity regarding what we believe in and who you should like or not like, who I could associate with or not associate with. It's that part to me is I'm absolutely insane. I never remember that as a kid, or even not even beyond kid ism when I became, you know, a teenager. Then you go to college. I never really did like somebody because they didn't agree with me. I mean, I don't. I've never understood that concept. I not at all. I've always enjoyed when somebody and I still do when I when somebody disagrees with me, I'm fine with that. I encourage it. And then eventually I could, you know, weigh that and say, good point, Maybe I need to include that in my thought process and my belief system. Where nah, it just reinforces exactly what I believe. And that's the that's the point when you're talking about the blad rors and the pundits as opposed to somebody that's responsible, and that's that's up to us to make our What am I seeing right here? What do I think this person is he is he a blatherer or is he a pundit, or is he somebody that really has give me giving it to me straight, looking at both sides of the world and just trying to keep by youse out, which is very difficult, but I really I attempt to do that myself, so I have my intent up all the time. And it's it all starts with baseball too. It's not just in the real world. I you know, we talk about other things going on in the game. I've seen this over the last at least ten to fifteen years. Is where it began, where it became more. You know, the groups that excuse me, groups that took charge, and it was always an agenda based from that group, and if you did not jump on with that particular method of thought, you were really thought about less and eventually taken out of there. Back in the day, I wanted people in the room that totally disagree to disagree with me to the very end. I want disagreement. I love disagreement. So it's part of the way of the world right now, and hope we get by that. But the end of the day, folks, make up your own mind, don't let anybody make it up for you.
That is a quart of the day.
I'm gonna go with Joe Madden as my thought of the day, so thanks for ending it that way.
Joe you got We'll see you next time on the Book of.
Joe wait to wind me up. Thank you.
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