The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey Darren, Welcome back. It is the Book of Joe podcast with Me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe, I got a question for you. Are you a fan of game shows?

The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey Darren, Welcome back. It is the Book of Joe podcast with Me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe, I got a question for you. Are you a fan of game shows?

I think I was. We watched Jeopardy last night a little bit, so I watched that, you know growing up. What was it? Was the Gong Show a game show? I guess the Gonk Show? That was. Yeah, that was big. When I was playing in Selena's, me and my roommate Doc Lions would watch it, uh, you know, with just all the characters and eventually a Geene Jene the Dancing Machine. Of course, I appeared at home played for us after a day game at Selenas we all ran up to the plate started dancing with Gene Jane the Dancing Machine who came out of his limousine at Home plate.

I think I was. We watched Jeopardy last night a little bit, so I watched that, you know growing up. What was it? Was the Gong Show a game show? I guess the Gonk Show? That was. Yeah, that was big. When I was playing in Selena's, me and my roommate Doc Lions would watch it, uh, you know, with just all the characters and eventually a Geene Jene the Dancing Machine. Of course, I appeared at home played for us after a day game at Selenas we all ran up to the plate started dancing with Gene Jane the Dancing Machine who came out of his limousine at Home plate.

Wow, what a thrill. Yeah actually got he got to meet him?

Wow, what a thrill. Yeah actually got he got to meet him?

Yeah we did. It was was a dream come true, it really was. Yeah.

Yeah we did. It was was a dream come true, it really was. Yeah.

Well, we're going to play a game later on with you, Joe. It involves the Hall of Fame. We'll test your knowledge a little bit. But before we get there we have to talk about Jackson Holiday. Number one prospect in baseball, just I can't miss kind of prospect who set the all time high school record for hits, breaking the record by J t Rio Muto. Just tore through the minor leagues, had a great spring training, slugging over six hundred. They sent him down to start the season just to play a little more second base, see a few more left handed pitchers, and then just completely fell on his face in the big leagues. We're talking about thirty six plate appearances, and he struck out half the time, two hits when he did put the ball in play, fifty poll rate. And I saw him early on in the first couple of days where you saw the typical nervousness Joe guys up in the big leagues, especially in the environment like Fenway, out in front of everything. You just didn't see any kind of confidence or ease in his body at all. And then he never did get his feet on the ground. It was very strange to see someone you think has grown up around the game, wouldn't be wild by the situation, has had a ton of success. The Orioles did the right thing. They had to send him back down the Triple A. He'll be much better when he gets back, of course, But Joe, I'd like your take. And you see a young player, you know is really he's a good hitter, he's a really good player and will be and just to fall completely on his face like that. As a manager, you see something like that going on, what do you think? How do you handle that situation?

Well, we're going to play a game later on with you, Joe. It involves the Hall of Fame. We'll test your knowledge a little bit. But before we get there we have to talk about Jackson Holiday. Number one prospect in baseball, just I can't miss kind of prospect who set the all time high school record for hits, breaking the record by J t Rio Muto. Just tore through the minor leagues, had a great spring training, slugging over six hundred. They sent him down to start the season just to play a little more second base, see a few more left handed pitchers, and then just completely fell on his face in the big leagues. We're talking about thirty six plate appearances, and he struck out half the time, two hits when he did put the ball in play, fifty poll rate. And I saw him early on in the first couple of days where you saw the typical nervousness Joe guys up in the big leagues, especially in the environment like Fenway, out in front of everything. You just didn't see any kind of confidence or ease in his body at all. And then he never did get his feet on the ground. It was very strange to see someone you think has grown up around the game, wouldn't be wild by the situation, has had a ton of success. The Orioles did the right thing. They had to send him back down the Triple A. He'll be much better when he gets back, of course, But Joe, I'd like your take. And you see a young player, you know is really he's a good hitter, he's a really good player and will be and just to fall completely on his face like that. As a manager, you see something like that going on, what do you think? How do you handle that situation?

Yeah, I mean, just got to be honest with yourself and everybody around. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I've never seen the kid play, and I know everything you've talked about and everything I've read or heard, and I guess it seemed like he was truly ready to be there obviously, but was there also this pressure to bring him up to maybe ahead of his time. Everybody's always concerned about starting a clock and getting complained against because we're holding him back. We're holding him back. The guy's really young, heasy, and I don't even know maturity wise, I'm sure he's fantastic, But it happens, like you said, it just happens. What was Willie May's like over twenty six before you hit a home running?

Yeah, I mean, just got to be honest with yourself and everybody around. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I've never seen the kid play, and I know everything you've talked about and everything I've read or heard, and I guess it seemed like he was truly ready to be there obviously, but was there also this pressure to bring him up to maybe ahead of his time. Everybody's always concerned about starting a clock and getting complained against because we're holding him back. We're holding him back. The guy's really young, heasy, and I don't even know maturity wise, I'm sure he's fantastic, But it happens, like you said, it just happens. What was Willie May's like over twenty six before you hit a home running?

Yeah, he's like one for twenty three. I mean, listen, Mike, Trout had to go back to the minor leagues. Yeah, Byron Buxton was a top pick, number two pick. He had to go back down. You know last year with the Orioles, Grayson Rodriguez and Colton cows Aer both went back down and they've been doing great since they came back.

Yeah, he's like one for twenty three. I mean, listen, Mike, Trout had to go back to the minor leagues. Yeah, Byron Buxton was a top pick, number two pick. He had to go back down. You know last year with the Orioles, Grayson Rodriguez and Colton cows Aer both went back down and they've been doing great since they came back.

Yeah, you got to take catch your breath. I mean sometimes you just the expectations are there. You get to the big leagues. Even though it's the same distance as everything, it just appears differently gets fast. When the world gets fast, man, your talents go away. It's that simple. Your confidence, Dwayne's a little bit and all all of a sudden, it's just different. It gets. The best way to describe it to those that are not in that situation is everything moves way too quickly. You can't slow it down. You don't breathe properly. He goes up to the plate, he's just swinging up pictures just to put it in play, not to strike out. He's eager, so he's rolling over and pulling everything he's in the ball get to him and drive it the opposite field. Just happens. It just happens. Like I said, I'm sure he's going to be fine and next time, next time through if I'm the Oriols, and I'm sure they're not really concerned about it. The kid himself's got a great pedigree with his pop and everybody else, so it's all going to be handled well. But stuff happens. Expectations can be kind of difficult to handle sometimes when you're that young, that much expected of you, and the world gets a little bit too fast.

Yeah, you got to take catch your breath. I mean sometimes you just the expectations are there. You get to the big leagues. Even though it's the same distance as everything, it just appears differently gets fast. When the world gets fast, man, your talents go away. It's that simple. Your confidence, Dwayne's a little bit and all all of a sudden, it's just different. It gets. The best way to describe it to those that are not in that situation is everything moves way too quickly. You can't slow it down. You don't breathe properly. He goes up to the plate, he's just swinging up pictures just to put it in play, not to strike out. He's eager, so he's rolling over and pulling everything he's in the ball get to him and drive it the opposite field. Just happens. It just happens. Like I said, I'm sure he's going to be fine and next time, next time through if I'm the Oriols, and I'm sure they're not really concerned about it. The kid himself's got a great pedigree with his pop and everybody else, so it's all going to be handled well. But stuff happens. Expectations can be kind of difficult to handle sometimes when you're that young, that much expected of you, and the world gets a little bit too fast.

Yeah. I mean, you're talking about a guy who's never failed before. He's only twenty years old, but he has never gone through anything like this, and it happens at the big league level with a spotlight on you. It's a lot to bear, there's no question about it. So the next day you find yourself in Norfolk, Virginia in front of eight thousand fans and he started one for eight in his first two games. But he's obviously going to be okay if I find any fault here. Joe, I like your opinion on this is he's a natural shortstop, But to me, he's not a big league shortstop. You know, he just doesn't have the arm to play the position, at least when you compare him to Gunnar Henderson. I mean, if you were a scout you're watching both these guys at a showcase, you would say, Gunnar Henderson is my shortstop, and we'll find a place for the other guy. And you know, I thought that the Orioles should have known that coming into this twenty twenty four season and given him reps at second base exclusively in spring training. And I know that Gunnery also played some third base last year. He's a great enough athlete you can put him anywhere. And I feel the same about Jackson Holliday. Good enough athlete, you can put him anywhere. And I saw him defensively at second base as shortstime short time in the big leagues, and I did not see a shortstop arm, to be quite honest with you. So he's going to be, I think a great major league second baseman. But if I'm the Orioles, I would have just put him there in spring training and just let him run there and get comfortable at second base.

Yeah. I mean, you're talking about a guy who's never failed before. He's only twenty years old, but he has never gone through anything like this, and it happens at the big league level with a spotlight on you. It's a lot to bear, there's no question about it. So the next day you find yourself in Norfolk, Virginia in front of eight thousand fans and he started one for eight in his first two games. But he's obviously going to be okay if I find any fault here. Joe, I like your opinion on this is he's a natural shortstop, But to me, he's not a big league shortstop. You know, he just doesn't have the arm to play the position, at least when you compare him to Gunnar Henderson. I mean, if you were a scout you're watching both these guys at a showcase, you would say, Gunnar Henderson is my shortstop, and we'll find a place for the other guy. And you know, I thought that the Orioles should have known that coming into this twenty twenty four season and given him reps at second base exclusively in spring training. And I know that Gunnery also played some third base last year. He's a great enough athlete you can put him anywhere. And I feel the same about Jackson Holliday. Good enough athlete, you can put him anywhere. And I saw him defensively at second base as shortstime short time in the big leagues, and I did not see a shortstop arm, to be quite honest with you. So he's going to be, I think a great major league second baseman. But if I'm the Orioles, I would have just put him there in spring training and just let him run there and get comfortable at second base.

Cannot agree with you more. I mean I always to fight that when in the minor leagues, and this was a big deal back in the day. You were afraid to move a guy to his position because you're concerned about all this awful mental gymnastics, he's going to have to go through. Go through. But in a situation like that, if you know that you have a guy at shortstop and this is his position, you know, but you already got somebody there established and well, and he could always go back there if you have to. I'm a big believer in moving him, absolutely moving him, because when the bat is ready, you have to have a place to play somebody. So in a perfect world, say it was going to be in the minor leagues longer than he was, and the shortstop was well established position, regardless of the Oriols or anybody else, move him, Move him around, give him different positions to play at, get him comfortable, because when his bat is ready and there's a position or a spot open or available, you want to be ready to plug him right into that spot and not have to wait for a shortstop spot to be open, or bring him to the big leagues and start teaching him on the fly completely a new position, which again is going to rev it up a little bit to the point where you're right going to the ballpark, dal He's going to be a little bit different than he hadn't normally been used to so I agree, I'm all about that. It was about that in the minor leagues. I wanted guys moving around. I also, like I said, I thought you could get to the big league sooner if you were more adaptable at other positions. So that again, once the bat is ready and you want the kid there, you have to be ready to plug him in somewhere, and you wanted to be ready by having had reps in the minor leagues.

Cannot agree with you more. I mean I always to fight that when in the minor leagues, and this was a big deal back in the day. You were afraid to move a guy to his position because you're concerned about all this awful mental gymnastics, he's going to have to go through. Go through. But in a situation like that, if you know that you have a guy at shortstop and this is his position, you know, but you already got somebody there established and well, and he could always go back there if you have to. I'm a big believer in moving him, absolutely moving him, because when the bat is ready, you have to have a place to play somebody. So in a perfect world, say it was going to be in the minor leagues longer than he was, and the shortstop was well established position, regardless of the Oriols or anybody else, move him, Move him around, give him different positions to play at, get him comfortable, because when his bat is ready and there's a position or a spot open or available, you want to be ready to plug him right into that spot and not have to wait for a shortstop spot to be open, or bring him to the big leagues and start teaching him on the fly completely a new position, which again is going to rev it up a little bit to the point where you're right going to the ballpark, dal He's going to be a little bit different than he hadn't normally been used to so I agree, I'm all about that. It was about that in the minor leagues. I wanted guys moving around. I also, like I said, I thought you could get to the big league sooner if you were more adaptable at other positions. So that again, once the bat is ready and you want the kid there, you have to be ready to plug him in somewhere, and you wanted to be ready by having had reps in the minor leagues.

Joe, do you recall a situation where you had someone come up from the minor leagues and just it wasn't happening, whether you know it wasn't ready for the big leagues, it was mental, physical, whatever, And how do you handle that between the manager and the front office. That's a big decision. Personally, I think it's a lot of blogning when people say when you bring you up to the big leagues, you should be there to stay. To me, there's nothing wrong with having to go back down. It actually can be really beneficial to a player. But I'm wondering as a manager, you're handling, you know, a young guy the big leagues for the first time, and he's failing. That decision to send him back down. How much of that should be the manager, how much should be the front office.

Joe, do you recall a situation where you had someone come up from the minor leagues and just it wasn't happening, whether you know it wasn't ready for the big leagues, it was mental, physical, whatever, And how do you handle that between the manager and the front office. That's a big decision. Personally, I think it's a lot of blogning when people say when you bring you up to the big leagues, you should be there to stay. To me, there's nothing wrong with having to go back down. It actually can be really beneficial to a player. But I'm wondering as a manager, you're handling, you know, a young guy the big leagues for the first time, and he's failing. That decision to send him back down. How much of that should be the manager, how much should be the front office.

Yeah, I mean, I do believe that when you bring somebody up, you bring him up with the intention a really a real player guy that he's going to stay. You always bring him up with that intent. You think he's ready. All the bells and whistles, everybody's considering them in order, and you think this guy is here to stay. So I think that's part of the dialogue, and I'm not opposed to that. But once he gets there and things are not turning out, well, it's a conversation between both ends, I believe, because the guys in the dugout in the clubhouse are going to hear and see things that the people upstairs are not. People upstairs are not privy to those conversations, and just like a look, I mean, I'm a big, big thing about reading faces, and I believe in it. I'm done it for long enough and I know and there's a lot of other guys that'll tell you the same thing. So you'll see a guy coming back and totally defeated, look in his face, totally kind of always walking with his head down coming to the ballpark. There's no life you talk to him conversationally. There's no confidence. It's just it's just true. It just happens. So I think it starts with the field people on the field, and then it's of course it's going to move to the people upstairs are going to be become part of the conversation. However, there are sometimes you might get impatience from the front office, But with the guy in the dugout, etc. You kind of like, you kind of like what he looks like, You kind of like what he's saying. You just think there's like, just give a little bit more time, Give a little bit more time. It's going to play. So it can work both ways. I believe that I've seen that. I'm trying to think of somebody specifically that I felt we had to set back down that we did not want to. I can't remember more specifically with the Cubs or even more recently with the Angels, guys that we held onto and then and didn't want to send back. I can't remember that.

Yeah, I mean, I do believe that when you bring somebody up, you bring him up with the intention a really a real player guy that he's going to stay. You always bring him up with that intent. You think he's ready. All the bells and whistles, everybody's considering them in order, and you think this guy is here to stay. So I think that's part of the dialogue, and I'm not opposed to that. But once he gets there and things are not turning out, well, it's a conversation between both ends, I believe, because the guys in the dugout in the clubhouse are going to hear and see things that the people upstairs are not. People upstairs are not privy to those conversations, and just like a look, I mean, I'm a big, big thing about reading faces, and I believe in it. I'm done it for long enough and I know and there's a lot of other guys that'll tell you the same thing. So you'll see a guy coming back and totally defeated, look in his face, totally kind of always walking with his head down coming to the ballpark. There's no life you talk to him conversationally. There's no confidence. It's just it's just true. It just happens. So I think it starts with the field people on the field, and then it's of course it's going to move to the people upstairs are going to be become part of the conversation. However, there are sometimes you might get impatience from the front office, But with the guy in the dugout, etc. You kind of like, you kind of like what he looks like, You kind of like what he's saying. You just think there's like, just give a little bit more time, Give a little bit more time. It's going to play. So it can work both ways. I believe that I've seen that. I'm trying to think of somebody specifically that I felt we had to set back down that we did not want to. I can't remember more specifically with the Cubs or even more recently with the Angels, guys that we held onto and then and didn't want to send back. I can't remember that.

Did you have did you have Joe?

Did you have did you have Joe?

Yeah, you're right, I did, but yeah I would. But I always thought he needed more time into minor leagues, and never thought whenever we brought him up. I didn't. I wasn't confident that he was going to be there to stay. Quite frankly, where Brandon Marsha I thought he was. That was a big conversation that we had between those two guys back then, and that was me then slicing it as I got there. That was guys like Marcel Latchman and others that had been there before. My original impression was I love them both, and you know, Joe's got a really high ceiling. But Marcia I thought was a more polished baseball player, and I thought he had a chance to be there and stay there sooner than Joe did. So that was part of my part, part of the conversation when I spoke in meetings, That's what I saw. And eventually, of course Marsha gets traded to the Phillies and then Joe still going up and down a bit. So that doesn't surprise me. That wasn't a surprise. So sometimes sometimes I think what does happen is front officers will push a guy to get to the big league sooner because quite frankly, I want to validate their scouting department or somebody that they chose to bring on board. It happens when you bring somebody on board, when he's your baby, when he's your highre whatever however you want to describe it, You're going to be more tolerant, more patient, and you want to see him there sooner to validate the process that got him there. And it kind of looks good just being honest. So that happens, and I absolutely believe it happens. I've seen it happen. So there's all those little dynamics going on, all the little politics that are involved in this too. I just from my perspective, we've talked about it. I really like to I want to believe I work from more of a pure intentions. I have no skin in the game. How much we paid it, when round he was drafted, and where he came from, Do I know anybody in his family whatever, I have nothing of that. It's just like you look in eyeballs. What am I seeing right here? Based on my experiences, and I try to make my biased opinion based on all of that. But I'm here to tell you there's a lot of bias involved even in opinion making and why somebody is promoted to the big leagues rather than later.

Yeah, you're right, I did, but yeah I would. But I always thought he needed more time into minor leagues, and never thought whenever we brought him up. I didn't. I wasn't confident that he was going to be there to stay. Quite frankly, where Brandon Marsha I thought he was. That was a big conversation that we had between those two guys back then, and that was me then slicing it as I got there. That was guys like Marcel Latchman and others that had been there before. My original impression was I love them both, and you know, Joe's got a really high ceiling. But Marcia I thought was a more polished baseball player, and I thought he had a chance to be there and stay there sooner than Joe did. So that was part of my part, part of the conversation when I spoke in meetings, That's what I saw. And eventually, of course Marsha gets traded to the Phillies and then Joe still going up and down a bit. So that doesn't surprise me. That wasn't a surprise. So sometimes sometimes I think what does happen is front officers will push a guy to get to the big league sooner because quite frankly, I want to validate their scouting department or somebody that they chose to bring on board. It happens when you bring somebody on board, when he's your baby, when he's your highre whatever however you want to describe it, You're going to be more tolerant, more patient, and you want to see him there sooner to validate the process that got him there. And it kind of looks good just being honest. So that happens, and I absolutely believe it happens. I've seen it happen. So there's all those little dynamics going on, all the little politics that are involved in this too. I just from my perspective, we've talked about it. I really like to I want to believe I work from more of a pure intentions. I have no skin in the game. How much we paid it, when round he was drafted, and where he came from, Do I know anybody in his family whatever, I have nothing of that. It's just like you look in eyeballs. What am I seeing right here? Based on my experiences, and I try to make my biased opinion based on all of that. But I'm here to tell you there's a lot of bias involved even in opinion making and why somebody is promoted to the big leagues rather than later.

Well, I still think the best Baltimore Orioles team and you will see this for most of this season, has Jackson Holiday at second base and Jordan Westberg at third base. Ramon Orias is playing third base and just I don't think he's enough of an offensive player to hold down that position on an everyday basis. But I think Jackson Holiday will be that type of hitter. So how long he stays down who knows it. You know, it could be a matter of weeks, it could be a matter of months. We don't know. He'll let us know when he's ready, but I do think you're going to see him be the everyday second baseman in the second half of the season, at least for the Baltimore Orioles. My question for you, Joe, when I look at the Orioles, they remind me a lot of your twenty sixteen Cubs team. These young players who are hitting their prime early so to speak. I love the athleticism, I love the positional versatility. I think they're starting pitching is better than people think, especially with John Means and Bradish coming back to the rotation. They're prime to win. They've got the experience of last year under their belt. This is not new to them. They have expectations of winning. The problem for the Baltimore Orioles and you actually had this in sixteen Joe as well. They need a legitimate closer to run through rounds of the postseason. You're not getting there with Craig Kimberll. He's got a little bit of a back issue here. He's just his ability to throw strikes is too often in question. He's given it up a couple of times recently. That could be back related, we don't know. But they need a surer thing. And you made that the Cubs and THEO made that move to get a rold As Chapman on that sixteen team when you were just running away with things at that point, but knowing to finish off the team, he needed somebody to back end. I think the Baltimore Orioles, with all of their great young position players, are going to have the trade from that depth to go get a legit closer if they want to win the World Series.

Well, I still think the best Baltimore Orioles team and you will see this for most of this season, has Jackson Holiday at second base and Jordan Westberg at third base. Ramon Orias is playing third base and just I don't think he's enough of an offensive player to hold down that position on an everyday basis. But I think Jackson Holiday will be that type of hitter. So how long he stays down who knows it. You know, it could be a matter of weeks, it could be a matter of months. We don't know. He'll let us know when he's ready, but I do think you're going to see him be the everyday second baseman in the second half of the season, at least for the Baltimore Orioles. My question for you, Joe, when I look at the Orioles, they remind me a lot of your twenty sixteen Cubs team. These young players who are hitting their prime early so to speak. I love the athleticism, I love the positional versatility. I think they're starting pitching is better than people think, especially with John Means and Bradish coming back to the rotation. They're prime to win. They've got the experience of last year under their belt. This is not new to them. They have expectations of winning. The problem for the Baltimore Orioles and you actually had this in sixteen Joe as well. They need a legitimate closer to run through rounds of the postseason. You're not getting there with Craig Kimberll. He's got a little bit of a back issue here. He's just his ability to throw strikes is too often in question. He's given it up a couple of times recently. That could be back related, we don't know. But they need a surer thing. And you made that the Cubs and THEO made that move to get a rold As Chapman on that sixteen team when you were just running away with things at that point, but knowing to finish off the team, he needed somebody to back end. I think the Baltimore Orioles, with all of their great young position players, are going to have the trade from that depth to go get a legit closer if they want to win the World Series.

That sound, yeah, we did need Chappie to do all that. I remember when he came on board. I think it was against Seattle, first game or something at Wrigley. When you when you when somebody like that arrives on the scene. It definitely does bring some more life into the clubhouse. There's a it's definitely felt and it does matter, does make a difference from a manager's perspective. When you do have the anchor at the end, it then permits you to utilize your bullpen differently as you work through the first eight innings when you get to the playoffs. I prefer doing when you get to the playoffs more more often than not, and that's when you might get four outside of the sky or five outs. Of course, have done more than that once you've gotten to the playoffs. So yeah, when you when you have the guy this is this is Tom Perducci's my ninth Inny Guy, then the first eight innings become completely different in regards to how I could work my way through this knowing that that when inning is taken care of, so it's it's might not sound like a whole lot. And I know there's a lot of analytical people that will say that it's another three outs. It is, but I'll tell you what it's different. Three outs. It's uh, the offense ramps it up a bit, and from your perspective, you're doing it every day. It's something every day with perfection is the benchmark. It's not about being you know, it's not like horse shoes coming close once in a while. It's you've got to be perfect in this particular job and that there's a mindset that really is necessary to handle all this. And the biggest part is when you're going to fail, how does how does this guy react to failure? How does he when he blows one? What does he do? And how does he react? And does? That's where real, significantly good closers separate themselves. So it is a difference maker. And I agree with you. I think that's exactly what's going to happen. And sometimes you do have to give it up. And I know, like I know, THEO proclaimed he pushed all the chips into the middle of the table we're in, and with that you've got to make a move or give some people up you don't normally want to. At some point, Baltimore has to do that because you know, theory, reality is one thing. Actually winning a World Series is something else, and you got to give something up to get something in return. So in order to get there, they're probably gonna have to do that. At some point.

That sound, yeah, we did need Chappie to do all that. I remember when he came on board. I think it was against Seattle, first game or something at Wrigley. When you when you when somebody like that arrives on the scene. It definitely does bring some more life into the clubhouse. There's a it's definitely felt and it does matter, does make a difference from a manager's perspective. When you do have the anchor at the end, it then permits you to utilize your bullpen differently as you work through the first eight innings when you get to the playoffs. I prefer doing when you get to the playoffs more more often than not, and that's when you might get four outside of the sky or five outs. Of course, have done more than that once you've gotten to the playoffs. So yeah, when you when you have the guy this is this is Tom Perducci's my ninth Inny Guy, then the first eight innings become completely different in regards to how I could work my way through this knowing that that when inning is taken care of, so it's it's might not sound like a whole lot. And I know there's a lot of analytical people that will say that it's another three outs. It is, but I'll tell you what it's different. Three outs. It's uh, the offense ramps it up a bit, and from your perspective, you're doing it every day. It's something every day with perfection is the benchmark. It's not about being you know, it's not like horse shoes coming close once in a while. It's you've got to be perfect in this particular job and that there's a mindset that really is necessary to handle all this. And the biggest part is when you're going to fail, how does how does this guy react to failure? How does he when he blows one? What does he do? And how does he react? And does? That's where real, significantly good closers separate themselves. So it is a difference maker. And I agree with you. I think that's exactly what's going to happen. And sometimes you do have to give it up. And I know, like I know, THEO proclaimed he pushed all the chips into the middle of the table we're in, and with that you've got to make a move or give some people up you don't normally want to. At some point, Baltimore has to do that because you know, theory, reality is one thing. Actually winning a World Series is something else, and you got to give something up to get something in return. So in order to get there, they're probably gonna have to do that. At some point.

Yeah, that's well said, because I remember THEO at that time saying, and I love the line. If not now, when right, right, you had the best record in the league, the team had won the World Series more than one hundred years. Yeah, you're going to trade a guy like Labor Torres and six years of control. He's going to make All Star teams, he's going to hit thirty home runs. It's a high price to pay. But again, if not now, when, if you're the Baltimore Orioles, if not now, when you have a team that is World Series capable. You haven't been there in forever, and you have, whether it's Kobe Mayo or Heston kurst Ed or Colton Cawser, You've got some duplication in your system and these young position players, so you have the depth to trade. And yes, it's going to hurt, but it should hurt if you're trying to win the World Series.

Yeah, that's well said, because I remember THEO at that time saying, and I love the line. If not now, when right, right, you had the best record in the league, the team had won the World Series more than one hundred years. Yeah, you're going to trade a guy like Labor Torres and six years of control. He's going to make All Star teams, he's going to hit thirty home runs. It's a high price to pay. But again, if not now, when, if you're the Baltimore Orioles, if not now, when you have a team that is World Series capable. You haven't been there in forever, and you have, whether it's Kobe Mayo or Heston kurst Ed or Colton Cawser, You've got some duplication in your system and these young position players, so you have the depth to trade. And yes, it's going to hurt, but it should hurt if you're trying to win the World Series.

Let's putting on that too. I'm here to say we don't win that without raw this. We just don't. I mean, our bullpen guys got hurt. At the end of the year. Some guys won as good as they had been, and we were relying on some young folks with Montgomery and it was one of my tall, skinny guy's name. Again, I ge't remember right off the top of my head. Carl Edwards, Carl Edwards Junior. Thank you. I'm sorry, Carl, if you're listening. But we're relying on a lot of young guys right there. And and I know people have made accusations that I used them too long or too much, but that was the only way to win that thing was to rely on a roll this because he was the difference maker for us. He got the big outs, and without him there, the Cubs have not won a World Series since, like you know, eight.

Let's putting on that too. I'm here to say we don't win that without raw this. We just don't. I mean, our bullpen guys got hurt. At the end of the year. Some guys won as good as they had been, and we were relying on some young folks with Montgomery and it was one of my tall, skinny guy's name. Again, I ge't remember right off the top of my head. Carl Edwards, Carl Edwards Junior. Thank you. I'm sorry, Carl, if you're listening. But we're relying on a lot of young guys right there. And and I know people have made accusations that I used them too long or too much, but that was the only way to win that thing was to rely on a roll this because he was the difference maker for us. He got the big outs, and without him there, the Cubs have not won a World Series since, like you know, eight.

We're going to take a quick break here on the Book of Joe Podcasts, and when we get back, I want to talk about how, if you haven't noticed this, the Boston Red Sox are changing the game of baseball.

We're going to take a quick break here on the Book of Joe Podcasts, and when we get back, I want to talk about how, if you haven't noticed this, the Boston Red Sox are changing the game of baseball.

We'll talk about that next, all.

We'll talk about that next, all.

Right, Joe, I don't know if you paid attention to the Boston Red Sox. Of course, they hired Craig Breslo as their chief baseball officer, and they brought in Andrew Bailey as their pitching coach, and they are bringing an entirely different model to how to pitch in the big leagues. The Boston Red Sox pitching staff are throwing fewer fastballs than any staff in the recorded history of Major League Baseball. They are down to about thirty percent. I'm not talking about cutters. I'm talking about four seamers and sinkers. And what's happened is they have boosted their number of sweepers to the second most in baseball, their number of cutters to the most in baseballs. Their four steamers are down fifteen percent from last year. Last year they were probably in the middle of the pack, right around major league gaverage. As you know, fastballs used to be the bread and butter at pitching, right that's your primary pitch, establish your fastball, work off your fastball. Well, about three years ago, fastballs fell below fifty percent for the first time in recorded history, and it continues to go down down again this year. But the Red Sox are taking it to an entirely different level. And again, they were about league average last year and Breslo and Bailey get in and you know, they've taken it to a whole new level here. So it's working. They have the best dra in baseball. So you know how baseball works, Joe. It's like the NFL as well, they say, is a copycat league. Somebody has success and you want people want to copy it. Red Sox are having success throwing very few fastballs. So I'm wondering what your take is here, whether this is just a fad or we're going to see this spread around the game.

Right, Joe, I don't know if you paid attention to the Boston Red Sox. Of course, they hired Craig Breslo as their chief baseball officer, and they brought in Andrew Bailey as their pitching coach, and they are bringing an entirely different model to how to pitch in the big leagues. The Boston Red Sox pitching staff are throwing fewer fastballs than any staff in the recorded history of Major League Baseball. They are down to about thirty percent. I'm not talking about cutters. I'm talking about four seamers and sinkers. And what's happened is they have boosted their number of sweepers to the second most in baseball, their number of cutters to the most in baseballs. Their four steamers are down fifteen percent from last year. Last year they were probably in the middle of the pack, right around major league gaverage. As you know, fastballs used to be the bread and butter at pitching, right that's your primary pitch, establish your fastball, work off your fastball. Well, about three years ago, fastballs fell below fifty percent for the first time in recorded history, and it continues to go down down again this year. But the Red Sox are taking it to an entirely different level. And again, they were about league average last year and Breslo and Bailey get in and you know, they've taken it to a whole new level here. So it's working. They have the best dra in baseball. So you know how baseball works, Joe. It's like the NFL as well, they say, is a copycat league. Somebody has success and you want people want to copy it. Red Sox are having success throwing very few fastballs. So I'm wondering what your take is here, whether this is just a fad or we're going to see this spread around the game.

Well, I mean, velocity has been it maybe I don't even know if they somehow believe it's a combination of throwing more breaking balls and the fact that you have less likelihood of injury. I mean, because we just had our guests on recently talking about it's not only trying to chase velocity, but it's always it's also chasing a lot of breaking balls and the sweeper. And I think the sweeper was mentioned in that particular episode two. So I don't know. I don't have an answer for that. It's another fatish kind of a thing, I think, because wait for the hitters to make the adjustment. Let's see what happens as we move this thing through and furthermore, the attrition rate of their pitching stuff. I don't know. I don't know enough yet, but I also know that really a good wealth placed fastball is still very difficult to hit again. I'd like to know maybe their equation has something to do with the injury problem, and by throwing less fastballs and not chasing velocity as much, they believe we're less likely to be hurt. There's more to it. I know Craig and he's he's a very bright young man. I've had Andrew around a bit too, and I know he's very inquisitive. Also, this is one thing I think requires more time and more than anything. And you're right though, I trust you. I trust me it's right. If it in fact shows to be somewhat productive, you're gonna see everybody chase, and everybody because that's how our league works, everybody chases with the flavor of the month. Is my guess would be it's going to level out. I would like to think, or I believe that maybe the next time through. Are they going to go more to the fastball. I don't know, because they're going to see like hitters making adjustments to it. I've always believed you could throw too many breaking balls, you're going to start hanging and they're going to start getting banged, because primarily your teach hitters to look for fastball first and then adjust down to the off speech stuff. So maybe it might be a philosophical change on how you approach them when you face the Red Sox. Yeah, I would just wait and see. I'm not totally convinced yet.

Well, I mean, velocity has been it maybe I don't even know if they somehow believe it's a combination of throwing more breaking balls and the fact that you have less likelihood of injury. I mean, because we just had our guests on recently talking about it's not only trying to chase velocity, but it's always it's also chasing a lot of breaking balls and the sweeper. And I think the sweeper was mentioned in that particular episode two. So I don't know. I don't have an answer for that. It's another fatish kind of a thing, I think, because wait for the hitters to make the adjustment. Let's see what happens as we move this thing through and furthermore, the attrition rate of their pitching stuff. I don't know. I don't know enough yet, but I also know that really a good wealth placed fastball is still very difficult to hit again. I'd like to know maybe their equation has something to do with the injury problem, and by throwing less fastballs and not chasing velocity as much, they believe we're less likely to be hurt. There's more to it. I know Craig and he's he's a very bright young man. I've had Andrew around a bit too, and I know he's very inquisitive. Also, this is one thing I think requires more time and more than anything. And you're right though, I trust you. I trust me it's right. If it in fact shows to be somewhat productive, you're gonna see everybody chase, and everybody because that's how our league works, everybody chases with the flavor of the month. Is my guess would be it's going to level out. I would like to think, or I believe that maybe the next time through. Are they going to go more to the fastball. I don't know, because they're going to see like hitters making adjustments to it. I've always believed you could throw too many breaking balls, you're going to start hanging and they're going to start getting banged, because primarily your teach hitters to look for fastball first and then adjust down to the off speech stuff. So maybe it might be a philosophical change on how you approach them when you face the Red Sox. Yeah, I would just wait and see. I'm not totally convinced yet.

Yeah, listen, it's only a month of the season. I get it. And one thing to keep an eye on is as well as the Red Sox have pitched, they do not have pitchers who have a lot of innings under their belt. I'm talking about one hundred and sixty one hundred and seventy innings that you know. They just don't have pictures who've gotten to that level. So at some point, assuming they stay healthy, you know, the Tanner Hawks and the Cutter Crawfords and the Garrett Whitlocks are going to get to a point of uncharted territories. So that alone will be a factor in the second half of the season. But I you know, Cutter Crawford is now one of the best pitchers in baseball, and he's going to throw a fastball thirty percent of the time. That's it. He's really boosted his sweeper percentage. And to me, Joe, it's it's really data driven more than anything. Else. Maybe there's some health issues here, but an elite fastball is actually easier to hit than an average breaking ball. Think about that. An elite fastball I'm talking about upper nineties is easier to hit than an average breaking ball. The overall average on four seamers is two forty four. That's slightly above the major league gaverage in April, which is only two forty one. We can talk about that in a minute. So two forty four against four steamers. Against sweepers, it's two oh nine. So if you follow the data, you'll just say, well, throw more sweepers, throw fewer four seamers. That's what the Red side doing. And I agree with you it's a little too early to call it a success. But from one month into this season, the Red Sox to me, are challenged offensively, are hanging in there because they are taking the idea of pitching backward to a whole new extreme.

Yeah, listen, it's only a month of the season. I get it. And one thing to keep an eye on is as well as the Red Sox have pitched, they do not have pitchers who have a lot of innings under their belt. I'm talking about one hundred and sixty one hundred and seventy innings that you know. They just don't have pictures who've gotten to that level. So at some point, assuming they stay healthy, you know, the Tanner Hawks and the Cutter Crawfords and the Garrett Whitlocks are going to get to a point of uncharted territories. So that alone will be a factor in the second half of the season. But I you know, Cutter Crawford is now one of the best pitchers in baseball, and he's going to throw a fastball thirty percent of the time. That's it. He's really boosted his sweeper percentage. And to me, Joe, it's it's really data driven more than anything. Else. Maybe there's some health issues here, but an elite fastball is actually easier to hit than an average breaking ball. Think about that. An elite fastball I'm talking about upper nineties is easier to hit than an average breaking ball. The overall average on four seamers is two forty four. That's slightly above the major league gaverage in April, which is only two forty one. We can talk about that in a minute. So two forty four against four steamers. Against sweepers, it's two oh nine. So if you follow the data, you'll just say, well, throw more sweepers, throw fewer four seamers. That's what the Red side doing. And I agree with you it's a little too early to call it a success. But from one month into this season, the Red Sox to me, are challenged offensively, are hanging in there because they are taking the idea of pitching backward to a whole new extreme.

Yeah again, it is different. As a hitter, you've been training yourself to approach this at back differently to the point where it's hard. Sometimes it looks soft because when you're looking soft, I've always felt this, if you're looking something soft, beating a breaking ball, and a pitcher throws you a fastball, there's really very little chance to hit that ball well. But if you're thinking fastball, thinking hard, and he happens to throw something soft, breaking ball, you could adjust down and do something with it. That's always been part of it. So I think right now, if they're throwing just all breaking balls, I mean they might adjust down to the point where they're saying the heck with the fastball, even though I'm laid on it, I'm just going to make my adjustment down. Time it up. Maybe you're going to see higher lay kicks. Maybe you're going to see something different that's going to permit the to stay back longer or see it forte click longer, more acceptance. And again, where is it that the sweepers know me away? Right? We're down and into a lefty down in a way to a writing something to that effect, that's going to be how you're going to adjust your vision. They'll talk about it a lot and way. I think players today are willing to follow the data to the to the extent that going into a series, all you need is one or two teams in a row to make an adjustment to teach the next group how to do this and they will so again, I just think it's early to be normally like what wasn't just an issue in the past. We I think we talked about it in the playoffs. I remember with the Cubs we saw way more breaking ball, I thought, in the postseason than we saw during the season, which then resulted in us hitting less in the postseason. Maybe it's just to carry over into the season and seeing if you could do it all year and if your arms could hold up to it. Do you have enough arms? Like you're saying pictures that haven't thrown enough innings? Wow, there's so much going on there. Man. I would just play it on out and then just try to sift through it as we move through this season. But I'm curious if the next time through all these teams that are seeing the Red Sox were the first time, if in fact they're able to make an adjustment the second time they see this team.

Yeah again, it is different. As a hitter, you've been training yourself to approach this at back differently to the point where it's hard. Sometimes it looks soft because when you're looking soft, I've always felt this, if you're looking something soft, beating a breaking ball, and a pitcher throws you a fastball, there's really very little chance to hit that ball well. But if you're thinking fastball, thinking hard, and he happens to throw something soft, breaking ball, you could adjust down and do something with it. That's always been part of it. So I think right now, if they're throwing just all breaking balls, I mean they might adjust down to the point where they're saying the heck with the fastball, even though I'm laid on it, I'm just going to make my adjustment down. Time it up. Maybe you're going to see higher lay kicks. Maybe you're going to see something different that's going to permit the to stay back longer or see it forte click longer, more acceptance. And again, where is it that the sweepers know me away? Right? We're down and into a lefty down in a way to a writing something to that effect, that's going to be how you're going to adjust your vision. They'll talk about it a lot and way. I think players today are willing to follow the data to the to the extent that going into a series, all you need is one or two teams in a row to make an adjustment to teach the next group how to do this and they will so again, I just think it's early to be normally like what wasn't just an issue in the past. We I think we talked about it in the playoffs. I remember with the Cubs we saw way more breaking ball, I thought, in the postseason than we saw during the season, which then resulted in us hitting less in the postseason. Maybe it's just to carry over into the season and seeing if you could do it all year and if your arms could hold up to it. Do you have enough arms? Like you're saying pictures that haven't thrown enough innings? Wow, there's so much going on there. Man. I would just play it on out and then just try to sift through it as we move through this season. But I'm curious if the next time through all these teams that are seeing the Red Sox were the first time, if in fact they're able to make an adjustment the second time they see this team.

Yeah, well see. I mean I will say that, especially with Cutter Crawford, most of these Red Sox pitchers, they do not pitch to patterns at all. Cutter Crawford, he's got like five different pitches. Is throw a split, he throw a sinker, occasional forced seamer. He's got the sweeper. He actually reminds me of you, Darbish, with the way he can spin the baseball and stay out of patterns. You know, sometimes with you Darbish, you think, you know he's got too many weapons and he doesn't attack enough. But Cutter Crawford does a great job of mixing his pitches and staying out of patterns. And I think when we talk about the Red Sox going to more non fastballs, they have a variety of pitches. So and by the way, the only two guys I've ever known who could sit soft and react to fastballs, Bryce Harper and Don Mattingly. Both of them told me there were times where they set soft and still could hit a fastball. I mean that's freakish, Yeah, it is.

Yeah, well see. I mean I will say that, especially with Cutter Crawford, most of these Red Sox pitchers, they do not pitch to patterns at all. Cutter Crawford, he's got like five different pitches. Is throw a split, he throw a sinker, occasional forced seamer. He's got the sweeper. He actually reminds me of you, Darbish, with the way he can spin the baseball and stay out of patterns. You know, sometimes with you Darbish, you think, you know he's got too many weapons and he doesn't attack enough. But Cutter Crawford does a great job of mixing his pitches and staying out of patterns. And I think when we talk about the Red Sox going to more non fastballs, they have a variety of pitches. So and by the way, the only two guys I've ever known who could sit soft and react to fastballs, Bryce Harper and Don Mattingly. Both of them told me there were times where they set soft and still could hit a fastball. I mean that's freakish, Yeah, it is.

I mean the best way I could describe it to people listening. If you're a catcher, which I was, and as let's say there's a run around second base, we used to roll our signs, and so if you put down which you perceived to be a you put the fastball signed down. But the pitcher somehow saw something breaking ball, whether the slider, curveball or change up. He goes in and throws at your minds thinking, here comes a fastball, and he throws something soft. Here, you're able to react to it as a catch. You could knock it down, you could catch, you could make an adjustment. Okay, we're okay. But if you put down something soft, whether it's a curveball, slider, or even a change up, and he saw a fastball, that's when umpires got hit because it's really hard to react mentally and get your glove of mient time to actually catch the fastball thinking something soft. And that's why I've always I think Gary Guyatty told me the same thing one time. Gary was able to sit soft and hit hard. But that's it. I mean, that was the way I've described it the hitters in the past to try to get them to always say keep your fastball, hack, load it, and adjust down. Man, it's somebody that's just breaking ball, breaking ball, breaking ball, then you might want to try something differently. But that's for those just think about it. For the baseball people listening. As a catcher, especially when you're expecting something hard and it's soft, I'm okay, But opposite, that's when somebody gets hurt.

I mean the best way I could describe it to people listening. If you're a catcher, which I was, and as let's say there's a run around second base, we used to roll our signs, and so if you put down which you perceived to be a you put the fastball signed down. But the pitcher somehow saw something breaking ball, whether the slider, curveball or change up. He goes in and throws at your minds thinking, here comes a fastball, and he throws something soft. Here, you're able to react to it as a catch. You could knock it down, you could catch, you could make an adjustment. Okay, we're okay. But if you put down something soft, whether it's a curveball, slider, or even a change up, and he saw a fastball, that's when umpires got hit because it's really hard to react mentally and get your glove of mient time to actually catch the fastball thinking something soft. And that's why I've always I think Gary Guyatty told me the same thing one time. Gary was able to sit soft and hit hard. But that's it. I mean, that was the way I've described it the hitters in the past to try to get them to always say keep your fastball, hack, load it, and adjust down. Man, it's somebody that's just breaking ball, breaking ball, breaking ball, then you might want to try something differently. But that's for those just think about it. For the baseball people listening. As a catcher, especially when you're expecting something hard and it's soft, I'm okay, But opposite, that's when somebody gets hurt.

Well, I do think in general, we talk a lot about velocity, but the rise of the sweeper and the adoption of the cutter as a fastball replacement really made hitting extremely hard. And I know the rules last year were designed to create more action and less time, and overall did that, but man, the hitting environment is so tough these days. Joe, the lowest April batting average in Major League Baseball since the mound was lowered in nineteen sixty nine. The three lowests have happened in the last four years, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, and this year twenty twenty four, where it's two forty one. It's down six points from last year. Slugging is down eighteen points from April of last year. It's the second lowest in April in the Wildcard era. Hits per game is tracking to be the lowest in a full season since nineteen sixty eight. So as much as I and I love the rule changes to improve the pace of action, on just pace of game, but man, the hitting environment right now is just so hard.

Well, I do think in general, we talk a lot about velocity, but the rise of the sweeper and the adoption of the cutter as a fastball replacement really made hitting extremely hard. And I know the rules last year were designed to create more action and less time, and overall did that, but man, the hitting environment is so tough these days. Joe, the lowest April batting average in Major League Baseball since the mound was lowered in nineteen sixty nine. The three lowests have happened in the last four years, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, and this year twenty twenty four, where it's two forty one. It's down six points from last year. Slugging is down eighteen points from April of last year. It's the second lowest in April in the Wildcard era. Hits per game is tracking to be the lowest in a full season since nineteen sixty eight. So as much as I and I love the rule changes to improve the pace of action, on just pace of game, but man, the hitting environment right now is just so hard.

Well that's with regardless of the team you're on, everybody wants to pitch away from slug right, I mean, that was the big thing, even back in the day with the cubbies. And so when the pitches you're talking about are really designed to make the plate wider. You're put this a lot of east to west going on. There, this slider, the cutter, and then of course the sweeper by expanding the plate making it a wider plates, that's what we're talking about. And I think with that you are always trying to attempting to pitch away from slug velocity. The last couple of years, I don't know how many years we're talking about, but the elevated velocity fastball was a big part of it. You know, when it was at the top there we're swinging underneath it all all because he's trying to lift the ball. Adjustments are being made, even to the point more recently, who am I volpe with the And that's in one year. The kid from last year didn't like to swing at all and really was a lot of lift in it. Now all of a sudden, it's not so within one year he's learned how to handle the elevated velocity fastball. It's evolution, man, These guys have seen so much of it. It's not become as effective as when they first came on the scene kind of talking into the Red Sox situation. Now we're working about a wider east west plate and staying away from slut, and that also includes the back door breaking ball. See, it's not just about the ball moving away from you. When you can make the plate larger by hitting the back to the outside edge with this breaking ball, that starts as a ball ball and becomes a strike, that really makes things problematic right there. Giants a couple of years ago is very popular to do the back door cutter slider. We're getting a lot of called strikes with that, and again making the plate wider, and Andrew was a part of that, I believe Bailey while he was there. So it's about that seventeen inches whatever they're trying to make it into nineteen twenty twenty one inches wide. And with that, let's stay off slug. Okay, the ball's gonna be put in play, not as hard or if it is hit somewhat decently, it's not going over the wall. And that's a big part of their philosophy I believe too.

Well that's with regardless of the team you're on, everybody wants to pitch away from slug right, I mean, that was the big thing, even back in the day with the cubbies. And so when the pitches you're talking about are really designed to make the plate wider. You're put this a lot of east to west going on. There, this slider, the cutter, and then of course the sweeper by expanding the plate making it a wider plates, that's what we're talking about. And I think with that you are always trying to attempting to pitch away from slug velocity. The last couple of years, I don't know how many years we're talking about, but the elevated velocity fastball was a big part of it. You know, when it was at the top there we're swinging underneath it all all because he's trying to lift the ball. Adjustments are being made, even to the point more recently, who am I volpe with the And that's in one year. The kid from last year didn't like to swing at all and really was a lot of lift in it. Now all of a sudden, it's not so within one year he's learned how to handle the elevated velocity fastball. It's evolution, man, These guys have seen so much of it. It's not become as effective as when they first came on the scene kind of talking into the Red Sox situation. Now we're working about a wider east west plate and staying away from slut, and that also includes the back door breaking ball. See, it's not just about the ball moving away from you. When you can make the plate larger by hitting the back to the outside edge with this breaking ball, that starts as a ball ball and becomes a strike, that really makes things problematic right there. Giants a couple of years ago is very popular to do the back door cutter slider. We're getting a lot of called strikes with that, and again making the plate wider, and Andrew was a part of that, I believe Bailey while he was there. So it's about that seventeen inches whatever they're trying to make it into nineteen twenty twenty one inches wide. And with that, let's stay off slug. Okay, the ball's gonna be put in play, not as hard or if it is hit somewhat decently, it's not going over the wall. And that's a big part of their philosophy I believe too.

Yeah, I like the way you put that. Staying away from slug, it's definitely the driving force and that includes now pe pitchers do not mind the walk, and walks are going up, and that's why you see three two three one sweepers and cutters. Nobody's giving in the idea is, well, you know what, I don't mind walking a guy because I'm staying away from the home run and I can try for the swing and miss on the next guy. I see that happen all the time, even at the bottom of the lineup. So the walk, now, you know, used to say joe with a manager. It used to drive managers crazy, right, I think there's maybe it's too hard to say, or too I'm going too far to say it's accepted. But it's definitely accepted more than it used to be.

Yeah, I like the way you put that. Staying away from slug, it's definitely the driving force and that includes now pe pitchers do not mind the walk, and walks are going up, and that's why you see three two three one sweepers and cutters. Nobody's giving in the idea is, well, you know what, I don't mind walking a guy because I'm staying away from the home run and I can try for the swing and miss on the next guy. I see that happen all the time, even at the bottom of the lineup. So the walk, now, you know, used to say joe with a manager. It used to drive managers crazy, right, I think there's maybe it's too hard to say, or too I'm going too far to say it's accepted. But it's definitely accepted more than it used to be.

Well, when it's intentional, you know, it's like, you know, if a guy's just wild, that's one thing. If a guy can't throw a strike when he want major league pitcher should be able to throw a strike when he wants to. That should be the definition of a major league pitcher. So maybe he doesn't want to, you know, it's a strike ball kind of a pitch that they're looking they get the chase, or oh well when move on to the next hitter. So philosophically, what are we trying to do here? Are we trying to throw a strike? If you are and you can't, that's a problem. But if you're trying to throw a strike ball and you're succeeding, that's okay. So I think it comes down to understanding which we're trying to get done here. From a manager's perspective, there's a conversation before the game, or you're being clued in by your pitching coach before the game. They know what we're trying to get done here today, and overwatching philosophy of the organization in general. Mattie Moore for years, Mattie Moe would walk people a lot. He's a little bit better right now, but a lot better actually, But we never really were worried about it because even if you walk the cup guys, to get to square them up and drive those runs in was an issue. So it's philosophical and it's built in what do we want? But at the end of the day, as a major league manager, I want my major league pitchers to be able to throw a strike when they want to, want them to be able to shape a ball becoming a strike or a strike becoming a ball and that's a big part of what's going on today.

Well, when it's intentional, you know, it's like, you know, if a guy's just wild, that's one thing. If a guy can't throw a strike when he want major league pitcher should be able to throw a strike when he wants to. That should be the definition of a major league pitcher. So maybe he doesn't want to, you know, it's a strike ball kind of a pitch that they're looking they get the chase, or oh well when move on to the next hitter. So philosophically, what are we trying to do here? Are we trying to throw a strike? If you are and you can't, that's a problem. But if you're trying to throw a strike ball and you're succeeding, that's okay. So I think it comes down to understanding which we're trying to get done here. From a manager's perspective, there's a conversation before the game, or you're being clued in by your pitching coach before the game. They know what we're trying to get done here today, and overwatching philosophy of the organization in general. Mattie Moore for years, Mattie Moe would walk people a lot. He's a little bit better right now, but a lot better actually, But we never really were worried about it because even if you walk the cup guys, to get to square them up and drive those runs in was an issue. So it's philosophical and it's built in what do we want? But at the end of the day, as a major league manager, I want my major league pitchers to be able to throw a strike when they want to, want them to be able to shape a ball becoming a strike or a strike becoming a ball and that's a big part of what's going on today.

Hey, Joe, did you pay attention at all to the NFL Draft?

Hey, Joe, did you pay attention at all to the NFL Draft?

I know I did not.

I know I did not.

Sorry, there's a story I saw reminded me of you. We need to talk about this. It involves Brad Holmes. He's the GM of the Detroit Lions. You know, they went to the NFC championship game last year. Last year in the draft, in his first four picks and it was in the top forty five overall, he took a running back, a linebacker, a tight end, and a defensive back. And the draft people I'm talking about the critics, ripped him for not picking what they call positional value. In other words, in the NFL, it's about the quarterback first of all, it's about an edge rusher, and it's about a tackle to protect a quarterback. So the analytics people put value on positions rather than players. NFL, the Tigers go to the NFC championship game. His picks all turned out really well. So the same thing happened again with Detroit. And he had some great lines here because he got ripped for not picking positions rather than players. And he said, when I got tipped on what positional value was last year, I didn't even know what it was. It was just like a new analytic. As I thought about it, I was like, positional value, so you pick a position, not a player. I was thinking, No, we're looking for football players. Did you win the draft because you drafted those positions? We're trying to draft football players that make us a better football team.

Sorry, there's a story I saw reminded me of you. We need to talk about this. It involves Brad Holmes. He's the GM of the Detroit Lions. You know, they went to the NFC championship game last year. Last year in the draft, in his first four picks and it was in the top forty five overall, he took a running back, a linebacker, a tight end, and a defensive back. And the draft people I'm talking about the critics, ripped him for not picking what they call positional value. In other words, in the NFL, it's about the quarterback first of all, it's about an edge rusher, and it's about a tackle to protect a quarterback. So the analytics people put value on positions rather than players. NFL, the Tigers go to the NFC championship game. His picks all turned out really well. So the same thing happened again with Detroit. And he had some great lines here because he got ripped for not picking positions rather than players. And he said, when I got tipped on what positional value was last year, I didn't even know what it was. It was just like a new analytic. As I thought about it, I was like, positional value, so you pick a position, not a player. I was thinking, No, we're looking for football players. Did you win the draft because you drafted those positions? We're trying to draft football players that make us a better football team.

Huge fan. I've never even heard huge fan. I mean, oh my god. If you just start basing it based on position, and you're going to avoid a player that you research and you like him, you like his skills, you like how he's going to fit into my group organization, into the clubhouse, et cetera, et cetera. Over drafting up position, it is a little bit funny. Actually, and again that that does sound analytically inclined. I'm so happy that he said he never heard about it. That really I am. I am now, Well, first of all, I love their skipperor cambell. I think he's outstanding. So now I'm officially, from this moment forward, an official my secondary team. Well, the secondary team is kind of the Jets. I mean, I'm a Cardinal Fan born and bred, and of course my Buccaneers. But let's go Jets. And now that the Lions are on my radar on a weekly basis, I'm serious, I'm going to start reading more and more about him because I think that's beautiful.

Huge fan. I've never even heard huge fan. I mean, oh my god. If you just start basing it based on position, and you're going to avoid a player that you research and you like him, you like his skills, you like how he's going to fit into my group organization, into the clubhouse, et cetera, et cetera. Over drafting up position, it is a little bit funny. Actually, and again that that does sound analytically inclined. I'm so happy that he said he never heard about it. That really I am. I am now, Well, first of all, I love their skipperor cambell. I think he's outstanding. So now I'm officially, from this moment forward, an official my secondary team. Well, the secondary team is kind of the Jets. I mean, I'm a Cardinal Fan born and bred, and of course my Buccaneers. But let's go Jets. And now that the Lions are on my radar on a weekly basis, I'm serious, I'm going to start reading more and more about him because I think that's beautiful.

I'm with you. I love the fact that he wasn't even aware of such a thing existed.

I'm with you. I love the fact that he wasn't even aware of such a thing existed.

Oh my god, that's great. I love Hey. I thought you love honesty though. I mean, yes, some guys would have like glossed over it at that well, you know, but no, he said, and I've never heard of it.

Oh my god, that's great. I love Hey. I thought you love honesty though. I mean, yes, some guys would have like glossed over it at that well, you know, but no, he said, and I've never heard of it.

Yeah, I love that, and that is press conference. This is great. He actually wore a sweatshirt with the words positional villain on it.

Yeah, I love that, and that is press conference. This is great. He actually wore a sweatshirt with the words positional villain on it.

He is. I'm went, I went over, thank you, I went over. Hey.

He is. I'm went, I went over, thank you, I went over. Hey.

I promise you. We're gonna play a game show and it involves the Hall of Fame. We're gonna do that right after this. We'll see how good Joe is on the Hall of Fame. Okay, Joe, it's time to play a Hall of Fame game show here. But there's a twist to this. We're not talking about the Baseball Hall of Fame. We're talking about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The new inductees were announced this past week, and we've got some interesting names here. I think Foreigner is in for the first time. How about that you have Foreigner fan?

I promise you. We're gonna play a game show and it involves the Hall of Fame. We're gonna do that right after this. We'll see how good Joe is on the Hall of Fame. Okay, Joe, it's time to play a Hall of Fame game show here. But there's a twist to this. We're not talking about the Baseball Hall of Fame. We're talking about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The new inductees were announced this past week, and we've got some interesting names here. I think Foreigner is in for the first time. How about that you have Foreigner fan?

Yeah? I listened to them, you know, but I don't seek them out right.

Yeah? I listened to them, you know, but I don't seek them out right.

Okay, But what I want to do is, uh, by the way, Peter Frampton, you got to be a Peter Frampton fan, right, I'm.

Okay, But what I want to do is, uh, by the way, Peter Frampton, you got to be a Peter Frampton fan, right, I'm.

Okay, I mean not one of those guys. I mean that that the song that he Wang Wang Wang's you know, the different.

Okay, I mean not one of those guys. I mean that that the song that he Wang Wang Wang's you know, the different.

Yeah, what do they call that? Something pedal? Yeah?

Yeah, what do they call that? Something pedal? Yeah?

Yeah, whatever that was. Everybody was going nuts over and every time I hear it now in the radio, I advance it. I really, I've heard enough of that. All right.

Yeah, whatever that was. Everybody was going nuts over and every time I hear it now in the radio, I advance it. I really, I've heard enough of that. All right.

Cool in the Gang okay with them and being.

Cool in the Gang okay with them and being.

A rock yeah yeah, I love Cooling the Gang. Yeah. Right.

A rock yeah yeah, I love Cooling the Gang. Yeah. Right.

So there were eight new editions. But what I want to do is give you some names of artists and you tell me whether they're in the Hall of Fame or not. Oh wow, okay, sure, all right, let's start with Sticks. I'm trying to get right in your wheelhouse to some of these seventies and eighties rock and roll bands.

So there were eight new editions. But what I want to do is give you some names of artists and you tell me whether they're in the Hall of Fame or not. Oh wow, okay, sure, all right, let's start with Sticks. I'm trying to get right in your wheelhouse to some of these seventies and eighties rock and roll bands.

Stick Sticks Sticks more recently was in the Hall of Fame. Correct, No, they're not in, but they were being sought to be in the Hall of Fame.