The Book of Joe with Joe Maddon and Tom VerducciThe Book of Joe: Already time to make changes?
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci dive in with the Yankees changing closers after just 8 innings for Devin Williams. Joe explains the timing and reasoning for making such an early switch. Tom is floored by the start of the Rockies and sees a trend with bad teams getting worse. We switch gears to soccer and a new head coach doing things a bit differently and Joe loves it! What happened in baseball that's more rare than a perfect game? Plus, how long will it take for the Dodgers to get back on track?
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The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey Therey, Welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Verducci and Joe Madden.
Joe, how you doing. We've got one month of this season in the books already.
I'm doing well, Tommy, And today is the big day down here in Tampa, because we're going to start heading north, taking a drive back up to the Holy Land, which would be Pennsylvania, and then back to sugar Loaf and have that one of those beautiful, glorious Pennsylvania summers. You're very close in New Jersey is an extension of Pennsylvania, so you know what that feels like. And I'm eager about this. I'm very very excited about it.
Well, just for you, we finally rolled out springtime. It's taken a while day here, but it does feel like good.
Time a year.
But hey, hey Joe, speaking of springtime, it wasn't long before Devin Williams, the closer from the New York Yankees, lost his job.
We barely got into not even out of April.
He just pitched ten games, only eight innings, and Aaron Boone said, you know what, let's move.
You back up, take you out of that closer's role.
I want to talk to you, Joe, about the manager's role in this when you make this kind of decision. He's obviously new to the Yankees after the trade from Milwaukee, very small sample size, it was obvious to see how he was struggling, especially with fastball command. His velocity was down a tick, but he basically just could not throw his fastball where he wanted to and just has not been getting swings and misses.
So take me through the process here, Joe.
If you're a manager, you're seeing a guy first year with the team scuffling a little bit here, but he's only got eight innings, and you say, you know what, let's back you up and keep you out of that role. What goes into that thought process?
That is a tight rope because I've been watching it. I've actually seen him pitch several times on TV Williams, and he has not been good. He's not looked anything like he had in the past. And I was the last several years and I was wondering how much the Alonzo home run has impacted him. I really I was wondering that because he's just he's just not attacking like he had in the past. He's not getting ahead and counts, which then puts that change up whatever he wants to call it. Really in the driver's heat, it just did not look normal. And beyond that, just the facial expressions. Watching from the you know, I've talked about this all the time. Pitching coach talks to him, bullpen coach talks to him, manager speaks with him, and you're just finding no confidence and you just think that maybe if I keep throwing them out there Chuckagan at worse as opposed to better, like you're saying a really fine line right here when to do this if you, in fact you're going to do it. But man, from what I was seeing the way he was pitching, it's almost like Bednar with Pittsburgh. I mean, I'm a big fan of Lafia kid last year. I just did not like the way his shoulder was working. It seemed like something might have been bothering him. And after being like lights out, he's not been lights out, and eventually they took him out, but it took them longer to do that. Watching Williams short the way, he just doesn't look comfortable throwing the baseball and he has zero confidence. So I understand this one was look to be rather quick and difficult. But from my perspective watching it, I thought, Okay, I get this, and the conversation's got to be like straightforward. Listen, this is going to be temporary. We want you to get your feedback on the ground, get that confident swagger. You need a couple like quick innings like this is This is where the new rules make it somewhat more difficult. A three batter minimum I would for me in the past easily with two outs in an inning. Just bring him in to get the third out in an inning, as opposed to having to take him out of this role. See if you can get him like two outs in an inning or one out in an inning, and then get him out and move this thing along. Now you could do that as the last out of an inning. I get that. I understand that. But just to able to have this like freedom to get him in and get him out, that's what I would say to the pitching coast, get him in and get him out to try to rebuild his confidence. So long answer, I think I understand this one. I didn't like the way he looked either, and he went one, two, three. I guess yesterday in a supporting role as opposed to closing, and so I think that's all good and he'll he'll be back. I mean, the guy is that talented. But I'm telling you, man, the look on his face and the way he's throwing the ball, I get it.
Yeah, and factor in here in New York, right, Yeah, absolutely, come into the big market. You know, the fans are starting to chant we want Weaver when he's out there.
Right when you get traded to New York or.
You sign a free agent contract with New York, you really have to hit the ground running, and it's very difficult if you start from behind. You have to win the fans over very quickly in New York. I'm not saying that's bothering him, but it would be a natural thing if it did, because he's never faced that kind of scrutiny before.
Not to say he can't handle it, but it is a new environment for him.
Joe.
The other thing I want to ask you about was pictures like that who or two pitch pitchers? Essentially, you know, if they don't have command of one pitch, they're vulnerable. We're seeing that with Emmanuel class with Cleveland where the location of the cutter just is not the same. You know, he'd like to elevate that, maybe even run it in on radies.
Everything now is down and the way the.
Slider cutter, Paul Seawall, Tanner, Scott Josh Hater sometimes.
You know Craig Kimberrell was this way.
If he didn't land his curve ball, he was very vulnerable because you're only a two pitch guy, and if a hitter is able to take away one, well, the math is in the favor of the hitter at that point. What do you see with guys, especially closers, who are two pitch guys, Because to me, today's game is so much about having a menu of pitches that you can throw to both right handed and left handed hitters. Pitchers, you know, are basically now different pitchers basically who they face, whether it's a ready or.
Left in the box.
And if you a hitter just has a two pitch guy, now that seems unusual. And if you've got this off, great you can blow guys away. But the permutations obviously are a lot less.
I still love to tried and true fastball command first. I think a lot of the other pitches, the out pitches, the strikeout pitch, the one that gets your run around third less than two outs, you're going to be able to strike somebody out when you want to. I still think, like you talked about Kimberle I had him for a bit as an example. Are you watching Williams right now? Vedno, when I was watching him on the tube, that they have these other really good pitches, but you got to get to it where the hitter is going to be more enticed to swing at a pitch that begins as a striking that becomes a ball. But if you're constantly unable to throw your fastball for a strike and get to more advantageous councils, becomes difficult. I just we talked about it too. You You brought it up several times about how the league is so trending to becoming a non fastball situation where the breaking ball becomes paramount, and all of a sudden, there's even more emphasis on that now. On the other hand, I just just flip that sometimes, you know, without the fastball command I've had that, I want them to go to the breaking ball on the two and zero countra three to one count, It just depends on the individual. All these things are individual based on the pitcher. But I I still love to see a major league pitcher commands fastball, being able to locate that to the point where you could throw it and it might get hit, it might be put in play, but not a damaging kind of a way to get to your other pitches. I'd have to watch these guys more closely to really totally understand what I'm seeing with that fastball versus that other pitch. But it's still I still believe in the fastball command location, and everything works off of that. Well.
Speaking of getting off to slow starts, Joe, we've got to talk about our friend Buddy Black and the Colorado Rockies. Oh my goodness.
The Rockies are off to a four and twenty four start, four and twenty four. It's the worst start in modern history in the National League. Their batting average is to twelve, their urn run average is five point three six.
Their starters have two wins.
Imagine that your starters go to the mound twenty eight times they walk out of there with just two wins. This is a challenge for Buddy Black, as you know, and it's coming off seasons of one hundred and three and one hundred and one losses, the record Rockies had never lost one hundred games until two years ago. Now it looks almost assuredly like they're doing it for a third straight year. They've already taken away his hitting coach, Hensley Mullins, and they put back Clint Hurdle in that role. I had been working in the front office. Put yourself in Buddy Black's shoes, Joe, where do you go from here after a four and twenty four start, after two consecutive one hundred lost seasons.
Dude, I don't even know that. I've not been confronted with that. You know, kind of was could have been with the Devil Rays we went lost a hundred, then close to one hundred, but then the next year after that we ended up being a World Series team. There's so much to digest there. I mean, I've been watching PEPPI and I are so close. I really haven't spoken to him. I probably should give him a blast, try to pick him up. I didn't know about the hitting coach with Hemsley and then Clint coming back, and I wasn't aware of that. Those those are all band aids. I think you know the switching of the coach right now. That happens all the time. Coordinators always get fired and new coordinator comes in, always looking for this different voice. But it really comes down to the players. Their ability level, truly, their ability to make adjustments, fight through difficult moments. I want to believe they are major league players. And again I haven't really watched their team because I don't know the exact talent level of this group. But one hundred hundred losses and now this which on their way, it's a tough one. I for me, it's like you'd like to get a hold of that. I've been involved in that once as a minor league coordinator. Lake elson Or got off. There's this kind of a start and I had a long talk with the owner at that time because I was the I was running the minor leagues, and says, by the end of the season, they're going to be a playoff team. They missed by one game, and they missed by one game because what I did is I went and spent like two or three weeks with this team only I just had to get them out of the hole. Because Lake elson Or was that big part of our structure at that time. I always go back to fundamentals when you're faced with the situation like this. For me, it's about extra work with a group, not just individually, and just start really reprocessing everything we talked about in camp and really stressing again the importance of playing catch, the importance of being in the right place at the right time, and you're at bats, the moving the ball with two strikes, accepting your walks. I just go back to fundamentals, and I will just break it down almost like another spring training. Guys might not like it, but you're looking at the record. You got to say, boys, we got to do something about this. So for me, when you get to this point, you go back to ground zero and you start building it back up. Old line might get old, it might be people don't like here, but it is about one day at a time, and you've got to take that kind of approach. Yeah.
I don't know what the answer is here.
We all know that it's difficult to win in Colorado, probably harder to win there than anybody else because you're playing a different ballgame at altitude, and you're playing a different game every time you go on the road. So the hitters and pitchers are always going back and forth adjusting, especially on the spin.
Of a breaking ball and the break of a breaking ball.
It's going to.
Break less at altitude.
So the Rocky hitters get on the road and all of a sudden, that ball's moving a lot more than they're used to. After a seven game, eight game homestand they've lost thirteen consecutive road games. As ties of franchise record, they won stretch where the first time at franchise history, shut out three consecutive games by the Padres. They haven't won two straight games since lass September, the middle of last September. I don't know what you do about the offensive problems that are inherent in Colorado. Of course they've had teams before that match the ball. But Joe, there's something here that's broken offensively in Colorado. They have a couple of good offensive players. Doyle the centerfielder, Tovar the shortstop. You know, Jordan Beck the outfielder, looks like he's got a decent stick. But you know, someone like Ryan McMahon has gone backward, hasn't really developed at the big league level. We thought he was going to be a big time player, So I don't know how you teach hitting at altitude because it is so different, And it's just this Rockies team should not be hitting to twelve. There's a ton of swing and miss. They swing a miss basically more than any team in baseball. You've got to have a better offensive team. It's even with accepting the fact that they're adjusting back and forth, it's too much of a hitter's park for this team to be hitting to twelve and not putting the ball in play. So something's fundamentally wrong structurally with the way they're developing hitters because they don't sign a lot of outside talent. Right they're not a big free agent team. They actually don't do a lot of the trade deadline either. It's very internal with the way they run things. But I think systematically, Joe, they've got to take a look at what's broken here.
This is a this is a classic for the tried and true. Now again, I don't know we're talking, and you just mentioned we don't know exactly what their philosophy is, and I don't know the talent level necessarily there, But obviously to me, it's about it's just about the fundamental tried and true stuff. It's about choking up a two strike. It's about looking away first. It's about keeping your fastball swing loaded and try to take advantage. Maybe the ball's not going over the wall, but they got enormous gaps and big lines. I mean, there's a lot of places to set a ball down there in the outfield, and it comes down to contact. I've been through it. I was challenged in the minor leagues too. There was an epidemic of striking out in the late eighties, and the challenge was to get your hitters to not strike out as often and accept more walks. And that's what I did. I mean, I came up with the b hack, the two strike approach. And again, to what extent it's being profited to these guys or mentioned to these fellas, I don't know. But that's the thing that we've talked about and how home runs win games, and we've talked about this, and my response to that is, who has really tried to win it outside out of the home run, who has really tried to move the ball? No pictures are thrown harder. I get all that stuff. However, how much of this other game is being nurtured and as opposed to just trying to lift the ball swing as hard as you can, Colorado being a launching pan that it is. But obviously it's not for these guys. It's just for me it would be somewhat easy and then to change the methods. But we talked about this also before when I managed in the middle and these are just experiences. But we had the same kind of a situation at home Man. The ball flew, it was windy, the fences were low, it was just a real hitters haven, and you go to then you go to Beaumont, San Antonio, Little Rock, Shreveport, Tulsa, where the ball did not carry. So the couple of days before we went on the road, I would have no if you at the top of the batting tunnel the turtle at home plate hit that drought, you just had to be line drives and hard ground balls. I mean, it's just, you know, just repetition of thought. I to me, it's just got to be a basic situation. You've got to fly back to basics and keep preaching it until it starts working, because otherwise four twenty two is not going to turn into anything good.
I just can't see it, No, I mean, listen, it's hard to imagine that this team is not once again going well over one hundred losses, which brings me finally to this point. Joe teams now seem to be not as bad, but there's more teams that are just horribly bad.
Right since the expansion era, in the one hundred and sixty two game schedule, in the first fifty years of that, there were seven teams that lost one hundred and ten games. The Rockies look like they will be the seventh team just in the last seven years to lose one hundred and ten games. So teams are just cratering. I think there's this idea.
I don't want to say they're not trying, Joe, but they feel like if they're not on a place on a winning curve where they can go for a playoff spot, they just ride it out being like horribly bad and not trying to you know, like they don't want to lose ninety games, you might as well lose one hundred and ten. It's really not a good thing for the game, and we're not seeing small market teams do this, by the way, obviously the White Sox did it last year. Teams like the Tigers and the Orioles have done it as well, but seven teams in the last seven years losing one hundred and ten games, after fifty years went by with only seven. It's just it's not a good look for the game.
It's not And you know, everybody's working from the same process. Everybody trying to kind of wants to be the same. And you can't be like the Dodgers. If you're Colorado, you want to be you want to win that many games, but you can't do it the same way these other teams, the White Sox, whomever. You can't just turn that thing, the battleship on a dime and win the same number of games that these guys are just based on their finances, and then beyond that they just at the talent level. I mean the acquisitional process, which is absolutely tied into the amount of money you're willing to spend. There they go hand in hand. I long story again, answer to I believe the process needs to be changed, and I believe you can't analytically attempt to play the same game as the Dodgers are going to play based on their personnel. You just have to have to concede and maybe go rogue a little bit from the industry and attempt to play a different style of game, a more like tack oriented game, a more contact oriented game, a more fundamental game where you don't make mistakes on defense. Again, we're talking about pitchers being able to look at your fastball. I've got to be in the right spot at the right time. You just have to take it in a different direction. Now, of course, it's always going to come down to talent. Whoever has the better talent should normally win a lot more games in the group that does not. But if you are lacking the quality of depth of talent, necessarily that's necessary. Really focus on a different process, focus on a different method, beat them at a different game that they're not used to playing, apply pressure in different in areas that they're not used to having to defend against. But all these groups still, they're so analytically married to the same methods within each organization that nobody wants to go rogue and try a different method of the game. So for me, the Rockies, I would just you know, you got to look like almost an a ball club doing all kinds of different things on a nightly basis until you hit til you finally find your groove, and it's got to be like on a different mental level, a different approach, et cetera. The definition of insanity right doing the same thing over and over again. So I'm just looking for that one team or two organizations that are going to finally say you know enough of this to taking component not caring if you lose. Come on, I mean, what about your fans, what about like the integrity of the game, the best interest of the game. I can't stand that part of what's the culture of our industry right now? That really bothers me a lot. So do something differently, go back to the basics. Play the game of baseball every night as well as you possibly can, and don't try to go toe to toe with people that may be more physically talented in a sense, but that does not mean you can't beat them on a given night.
Spoken by somebody who actually did it with the Rays up against those big boys in the Ale least the Red Sox and the Yankees and Joe. I'm not sure if you're a soccer fan, but I got to talk about and we'll do this after this break right here on the book of Joe pretty much the Joe Madden of the Premier League just won the title over there. We'll talk about that right after this. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts Joe, before we get to the Premier League. I thought this was really interesting where jose L Tuvey, of course he's moved from second base to left field, went to his manager, Joe Espada, and said he'd rather move out of the lead off spot. Now he's hit lead off for years and years and been more of the best leadoff hitters in the game, and he moved down to the number two spot in the lineup. The reasoning this is really interesting, and coming out of left field, he's got farther to run back to the dugout and he felt really rushed for his first at bat. So h Payny of the shortstop has been playing with hitting well, so now he's the leadoff guy in Altuve is the number two hitter, so you can get time to get himself ready for that first ay b.
I thought that was interesting.
It is and I've hit catchers in the leadoff spot. You know, they have to change gear, get in and out all that kind of stuff. I don't know that I've ever had anybody make that request to me based on that particular reason. It's first that bat I understand that. It's what happens like in the third or fourth any when you come up, you're going to lead off any of his stuff running from left field. I don't know. It's just something. Maybe he wasn't doing as well in his first at bats and so all of a sudden, maybe he thought of this or somebody brought it to his attention. I don't know. I I do hate the feeling of being right. I'm not going to argue with that whatsoever. In anything, I hate that feeling. So maybe that probably is accurate. But I would say that the opinion does not necessarily work out, and as I'll t be like, if he really gets hot, I think it could switch back to what it had been.
So I mentioned the Premier League. Do you follow soccer, Joe, Premier League? I don't. I'll be honest with you.
I'll be honest in return.
I do not, Okay, but I'm like you.
I'm always interested in methodologies and especially teaching and coaching. It was interesting because Liverpool went out they needed a new manager last year, head coach as it were, and they actually ran an internal data testing system. They had a bunch of criteria where they're looking for somebody with a very unique style of play. They were looking for somebody who would keep their players healthy, which is super important any sport, but especially in soccer. So anyway, they wound up after this exhaustive search using a lot of analytics to find a guy with Arnie Slott and he moves in. Actually, Fenway Sports is the group that owns this Liverpool teams. Of course they also owned the Boston Red Sox. And he comes in and he changed a lot of things, a lot of the so called soft skills. I mean, for instance, he put a coffee bar in the clubhouse they took from the Italian League, where players would come in and hang out early and stayed late around the coffee bar, just talking about yes, their game, the practice, whatever, but installing or at least trying to improve camaraderie.
They had a.
History there where the team when they were playing at home, everybody would go to a hotel. By the way, the name of the hotel was the Titanic Hotel.
It's probably not a good.
Omen and Arn't thought, you know what, let these guys stay at home sleep in their own beds. We got rid of the the night before home matches having guys go to a hotel. So he did a lot of these things and the players all jelled. He also has this method that he's got body wake ups before games where guys will go through breathing exercises and meditations and will do this as a group. He also is big on meetings and especially with video. Like the course of a game, he will he has an assistant by him and I'll just say clip, meaning take that play and take that clip, and I'm going to address this with that player, even as soon as halftime if it's appropriate, or after the game, or anytime he has these meetings, he rolls out these clips and he says, here's what you did, here's where you need to be. Basically, Liverpool surprised everybody. This guy's first year and it happens very rarely. First year manager goes in there and they win the title. But I like the fact that they empowered, aren't slot once they hired him to basically install his own system, change some of the methodologies.
And it worked right away. I love all that, but I thought.
Of you, Joe Matt, because you know, he wasn't afraid to do things. Yes, maybe in a different way, not new to him, but maybe new to what Liverpool had been doing.
Well, he definitely knows what he knows. I mean, he's had some experience. Obviously, he studied it very intently. He probably has been observing what everybody else has been doing and realizing there's these just these these subtle, different ways to make changes that are going to appeal to the players. That it just really comes down to like culture, like you're saying, bringing groups together the latter day postgame beer is now the cappuccino. Things like that are the pregame. I like all of that. Absolutely, you knew that I would like that. I think it's a great idea. And when you do do that that way and really understand why you're doing it, it's not like he's just reaching into a bag of tricks and all of a sudden, like what's going to come out next, just haphazardly. He knows, he knows what's in that bag, and he's just pulling different things out at different times, and the players are reacting to it. It's just different and the only thing is up all the meetings. But I like the idea of pull a video clip and playing back a video clip. I'm good with that. But overall it's just refreshing to these players, I'm sure. But it just sounds to me like this guy premeditated. He's thought these things out in advance. There's certain things that he's seen that are kind of accepted practices, even right down to the meditation, which we believer in, and the stuff that everybody else is doing did not resonate with him, and he thought it all the way through and here comes some new and different thoughts that to me, it sounds like it's a lot about mind, the mental part of the game over the physical part of the game. Watch what we're doing. He's talking about, like I said, bringing the group together, the camaraderie component, all those things that a lot of times people don't approach. Everybody wants to go after, like batting practice and extra swings and whatever, more bullpen sessions, more ground balls. But this guy's talking about the mind a little bit, actually a lot, and I think that's that's where he's coming from, and I like it.
Yeah, he began in their training camp he would have compulsory team breakfasts, so guys would get in early before the workouts and they'd have breakfast together. But really what caught my attention Joe's it follows up on what you were just talking about. With the style of play right Liverpool at least identified they wanted somebody with a distinct, unique style of play. They didn't want to play like everybody else, and he had that style. And he was asked to explain exactly what his style was and he said he wanted his players to feel the structure, stressing that although he expects them to follow his ideas without the ball, when they do have the ball it's a little bit different. For instance, when he said, when we don't have the ball on defense, there's no room for freedom.
It's just hard work and doing what we have to do.
But when we do have the ball, especially in the last third of the pitch, then we also rely on the individual quality. We bring them as much as we can in certain positions, which comes from structure, But then it has a lot to do with the individual quality of the players.
I love that idea, Joe, that he.
Has this freedom, this structure, but freedom within it for the players to be who they are.
Amen. I mean, that's that's what it's all about I mean you in spring training, you put this whole thing together, You put the team concepts together. Absolutely, there's there's certain parts of parts of it that are more structured and our more team oriented. But while you're doing that, you've heard me say a thousand times, you just want to stay out of the way of greatness and permit the individual to blossom and be who he is, right down to the way he dresses. And we've talked about that, so I like all of that. There's times for the structure, there's times to turn it loose, there's times for theory, and then here comes reality. Theory and reality clash all the time, and theoretically, you put this thing together. You want the game to work exactly this way. This is what we believe in. Here's abc D, here's the first, second, third, fourth inning, here's the belief, picture's seventh, eighth, ninth. But reality steps in the way, and all of a sudden, you've got to just go rogue and play the game and make your adjustments as you go along. DA's where feel comes in, because when you get to that point where things break down or they're going your way, or they break down when they break down is really when somebody has to take over and see things in advance, react quickly. Man, it's really warp speed. It doesn't look that fast from up top, but when you're on the field, soccer, baseball, football, whatever, it's warp speed. So again, field being the gift of experience. If you've been through this stuff before and you're able to recognize things quickly or in advance, which is absolutely necessary, then you can make the adjustments. Athletes cannot be restricted analytically. There's nothing that analytics that a player is holding onto in a hot moment in a big game. Again, theory before the game wonderful, but when the game's being played, let him play, stay out of their way. It sounds like that's what he does. And again I cannot agree with the more final point. It sounds like the Red Sox are looking for ted Lasso. Maybe they found them.
Good point.
Hey, listen, I think you touched on something here about camaraderie and the old days, guys would hang around after the game and have a beer, right and talk about the game and the last team. I can't remember doing that show. It's a long time ago. Is the nineteen ninety three Phillies. They would be there for hours and hours, and you know, basically they've taken alcohol out of the clubhouse, So the coffee bar is not a bad idea. What do you think in the modern game, the manager or the team can do to kind of foster this camaraderie where guys tend to go their own ways. They'll go back in their hotel rooms and they'll play video games and be on their phones and whatnot. Those methods of having guys around sharing talk about the game itself. I mean, if you go to a major league ballpark now and you go behind the scenes, there's so many different rooms and areas for players to get lost in. How do you bring back that sort of bonding element, the physical bonding of teams with shared spaces and ideas well.
I actually really liked what the Angels did this camp, the cell phone edict there where the cell phones were not permitted in the locker room. I see nothing wrong with that. And to really work your way around something like that, just make sure that maybe your media guy, clubhouse attendant has a his number is given to wives, girlfriends, kids, whatever. To make sure that if it's an absolute emergency that you're put in touch with him ever. But I like the idea of that that just by subtracting technology, you're going to encourage more conversation. So I think that would be a great place to start. I also like the encouragement of like team meals, like you when these guys go out on the road. I loved when my guys went out for dinner on the road, say after a day game, maybe on a Saturday and different city, a whole group would get together and go out, and it was always there was almost always a positive benefit from that. I used to do the same thing with the coaching staff. I love that. And then in furthermore, there's something I started getting into later on with the Cubs, was like a couple of us staff guys taking one guy out or two guys out just to be with them, talk with him, open up about it, try to get him known better. All these different little micro things that can occur that foster relationship building. Whatever it is that fosters that relationship building. I would really want to emphasize that, and that's part of that would be like even within the lead bull concept, where you get try to really empower your your better players. The more influential guys on the team to be like, truly there are running the clubhouse, but truly feel empowered to run the clubhouse. And then I would encourage them, like for instance, with the race, if I had an issue with somebody, when I had Gabe Capler, I'd say, Gabe, would you mind talking to so and so about whatever? And then he would. Gabe would specifically take the issue to the player and would obviously make a big difference. I thought he was outstanding at that. So all these little micro different ways to talk to people, whether in a group or individually, and from that, from this these concepts, you really build that method among the group that they do hang more tightly, that they do pull one one one another more sincerely, that they are there and they do have each other's backs. I don't know how much people really realize how important that is, because we're so caught up in numbers and data and artificial intelligence whatever as opposed to what really makes a difference, and that's the interconnective interconnectedness between uh men and players in this situation. So I would spend so much time, but I would I would start with the cell phone theory. I think that has there's a there's a lot to be said about that, and then from there just really encouraged, Like just like he's doing these these uh breakfasts and the cappuccino bar or whatever. I think those are great ideas.
Yeah, I'm wondering Joe, if you found things change in the course of managing, and especially I think you were there when Wrigley Field, the home was redesigned, that the physical nature has changed so much it's harder to have that team together in this I mean I remember all the old ballparks, even the home side, especially the roadside, but especially the home side. It was just a very small, intimate place where you were literally next to one another. And now there's just so many places for guys to get lost. You have sleeping rooms, you have yoga rooms, you have you know, cafeterias, just weight rooms, you know, so many different stretching rooms. It's it's hard to get the team literally together the way it was in the past. I wonder if you saw that, especially what Wrigley was redesigned.
But Tayo, the one thing about Wriggley being redesigned that I thought was brilliant is that the clubhouse was a circle right, and everything worked off with that circle, so you really didn't get too far away from the locker room at any particular time. We walk out one door as a training room, walk out the other door and there is the food room. Walk out the other door is the weight room. Then there's the video It was really well designed, and then the one and walk out that you go on this hallway that leads under the stands that goes down to the batting tunnels into the newer dugout situation. I thought that was grand, So I think part of the interconnectedness would be part of the design also. I think that was Theo's idea, And to me, that was really really really well done, and I thought actually it helped bring the group together more than separate. Although there was one room there's like a video room like you're talking about behind the food room. That was a little bit more over the top, but there are times you really do need just to chill a little bit. There was a little a sleep room. I'm not a post to that. If you just need to close your eyes for a bit to really focus on things, I was good with that. There is a plate's room, but there's all these windows and stuff you're never really isolated. It's not just a room with a door. So I would encourage, like, if you're going to do anything like that in the future, you're going to build something to really be aware of how to keep the guys connected within this situation. I thought the circle idea was absolutely brilliant.
Yeah, democracy right, there's no power positions in a circle.
Everything's even. So that was a great idea. It's a beautiful clubhouse. The physical nature of things.
Do matter, especially in the game of baseball, where these guys are together seven months and in a good year eight months. Joe, something historic happened in baseball that I don't think it got nearly as much attention as it should, And I want to ask you about that when we get back after this quick break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe. I'm not sure if you saw it. It happened on a weekend out in Arizona. E Haino Suarez hit four home runs in one game.
Joe.
He came into this game hitting one sixty seven and thirty three years old, hitting six in the lineup, hits four home runs. Now he's the oldest player to hit four home runs in a game. It's as low in the lineup as anybody's ever hit four home runs.
He seemed an unlikely candidate.
I know he hits home runs, don't get me wrong, but the way he was going, certainly you didn't have a premonition something like this was happening.
It's amazing.
He's only the nineteenth player in the modern era to hit four home runs in a game, Joe, And that's fewer than there are perfect games thrown. Somebody throws a perfect game, we all go wild.
I just listen. It's an unbelievable achievement.
I know it was a weekend when it happened, but I was blown away by this guy hitting one to sixty seven, taking somebody out four times in the same game, and they lost, correct, and they lost, by the way, that's only the third time in modern history.
How does that happen? Right? But it did happen.
I know this. When this guy was with Cincinnati got he was good. It wasn't just homers. He played a really good third base, and he was a good hitter. I mean he was a tough out in general. Older I understand that. I don't know philosophically, what he's gone through since he's left there. I saw him a little bit one in Seattle, I think. But this guy has that kind of jack, there's no question. And I should have watched the video because they didn't see specifically, you know, the pitches, the type of pitches. If they just kept making dumb, hanging breaking ball mistakes, would.
It Well, what's interesting, Joe is I don't know how you thought. I always thought this that that showed this.
He always had trouble with pitches up in his own high eaters, and he took two of him out of the park.
I mean top rail fastballs with velocity.
Whether it was the number up, was the number of good velocity.
I think they were decent. Yeah, but he it was just his day.
I guess you know what it's like on a golf course that day right one day, right one day, center of the club and it's going where you want to the other day, it's like, did I ever play this game before? The the golf club feels like an actual like post from a from a fence in your hand. He was just feeling it that day. I don't know what's happened since then. It is, like you said, highly unusual. It's just one of those anomaly moments. The ball looked big, a ball looks slow. He probably his body felt great, whatever, but it's just it is that unusual. But I will defend the fact regardless of what he's hitting right now. And I know the last couple of years have been hot and cold, but man, when I saw this guy several years ago, he was all of that.
Yeah, he's definitely got pop.
He was hitting one forty three against high fastballs coming into this game, so I actually looked this up.
This is kind of crazy.
From last starting last year, through this game, he had seen nine hundred and thirty two pitches at the top of the strikeson had three home runs in that game. He saw six elevated pitches and hit three home runs.
Let me ask you this, did he did he changes? Does anybody know if he changes bad at all? I mean, I've always had this theory about jose Yureba, remember him their basement with the White Sox, And yes, he used a pea shooter of a batman little bat and this guy killed high fastballs. I always wanted to really try to ask guys like if they had trouble with that pitch. If you ever consider just going to a smaller, lighter bat to see if you get over, because you really got to get on top of that ball. You have to babbaloo, bob clear, reverse your elbows, like the left elbows got to come down, the right elbow's got to come up and over to get to that particular pitch. I'm just curious if he changed equipment on that particular da I'd be curious about that.
Well, if it was a torpedo bat, I think we would have heard about it absolutely.
I just wonder if it's lighter, I would shorter and lighter would be where I would go with it.
Which brings me to the National League West Joe with the Arizona Diamondbacks. They're legit. We know that from last year they won eighty nine games last year with Giants are taking off. We know about how good the Dodgers are. But now they have Glass now, Tyler Glass now joining Blake Snell on the IL Dodgers actually look vulnerable. And we know this is a deep division. Who in that division do you think can push the Dodgers to make this you know, inevitable march that we thought for the Dodgers to get back to the World Series to be more difficult. I like the Giants yet San Diego, San Francisco and Arizona.
I like the Giants, I do. I like what they're doing. I mean, I think philosophically, I like what they're doing a lot. I was talking to Marcel Lashman about it yesterday. I talked to Mark Marcell. I haven't spoken to him in a while, but the combination of Posey Bowmeil, and he brought up is it Randy Winn running the minor league system there? Now? Are you aware of that?
I think he is back buster brought back a lot of guys that he played with with the Giants in various roles, even as advisors. And you're right, they're playing a different style of baseball. They were so much by the book and trying to get every analytical edge.
They turned over the roster a lot. I've talked to Bomel about this.
You know, he's a big believer instability, and finally they're letting the rosters settle. He's not changing the lineup every single day based on some incremental edge, and it's showing up with the way this team is playing. As he says, if we stay close to you in a game, we got a good chance of winning. They're winning a lot of games late.
Yeah. I like all of that, and I think this is what I think the industry needs right now, is a more tried and true method to create some balance regarding the the the what's being taught, and what's being sought after. I just like what they're doing. I like their approach. I watched them on TV a couple of times. There's like an attitude about them that I really enjoy. It looks like they're uninhibited when they play right now. I think that's part of what I'm seeing. But I like the structure. I like Buster to Bill Mill to Randy. I like that a lot. I think that there's there's something to be said for that. And I think the players they they know who to ask a question of, and whoever they're asking the question of, feels free to answer it. If that's probably the best way I could say it, I would bet on that because you don't have to like, well, I'll get back to you on this, because they've got to seek a high authority within a hierarchy to run this question by. It's kind of a emasculating. It just doesn't feel right, just as I feel good. But a lot of people feel that way right now. So question ask question answered. I think people have been empowered to do their jobs right there, and I'm pulling for them. I like them. I love Bowmell. I think he's outstanding. So I'm pulling for this group to get it done. I just like what they've done, and I like to I'd like for it to set an example for the rest of the industry.
And listen, I still think the Dodgers are the chalk here. I think they're going to be okay. But I gotta tell you, Joe, there's some I don't want to say worry some parts here, but they're concerning parts for the Dodgers.
They look a little bit old. You know.
Muki had that illness early, and his batspeed just simply is not there. Freddie Freeman with the ankle injury has not been the same. Max Munsey just does not look the same hit or even defensively. Some issues there. We talked about the pitching and some of the injuries there. They always seem to be short of pitching, always start the year with a million pitchers and all quickly. They're short of pitching. Uh, they don't get enough innings from their starters. They rely on their bullpen way too much.
Uh.
They pitch everybody on the six or seventh day, So they're always looking for stop gap starters to drop in there.
And they drop in, they drop out.
I just think it's it feels like a slog with the Dodgers right now, Joe. I don't get the sense that this team, like you mentioned with the Giants, the way things are clicking, I just don't get the sense there's stability here to let this team go on a run.
Yeah, they got you know, when Showy comes back and actually pitches. Whenever that occurs, I think that's going to be a lip. But these other guys keep getting injured and it's been part of their DNA over the past couple of years because they've got great arms and they got a lot of them, plenty of them, but they do seem to get hurt. Just the last year in general, and the publicity coming into this season, there's there's there is definitely a hangover that's that's there right now. And I use the word baseball boredom earlier this year and another with Brian Kenney on him be a Network. I just think there's some of that going on there. You know, got off to the great start. They go to Japan, a lot of excitement, but everything they've done and who they are, the you know, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, whatever they are. Right now, it's it's early and the games, you know, they're Bajor League games. It's the ballparks are packed. I get it, But I have to believe a lot of these guys are adrenaline junkies and they're just gonna have to be pushed a little bit more. And I think as they get pushed, moving it forward, you're going to see they're gonna win somehow. They have. They have all these guys that are veterans that know how to play. They ought to win. So maybe in spite of a months he's really struggling, he's still going to do something big in a big moment to help them win on a particular night, and so is the rest of the group. They're all going to come back and play to their level, barring any kind of significant injury. So I think they're getting over some kind of a fog, you know, posts last season, fogging with everybody just you know, telling them how wonderful they are. They'll get by that. But I think think that's what they're working on right now, so give them a little bit more time. I've been involved in situations like this post World Series kind of stuff where you really it's not easy for some a lot of guys or groups to just really get right back into it. They will, so I think that's what's going on. I think they got a little fog going on, and I think they'll shake it. They'll come back strong. But these other teams, they're giving them too much of a foothold right now and they might be difficult to get out of the way. Yeah.
I like that to what you called a fog there or baseball boredom. You take me back to after your team with the Cubs beat the Cleveland team Terry Francona's team in the sixteen World Series, and Terry mentioned to me the next year or that, you know, guys are still trying hard, but there's something missing when you come back, he said, every game that we played was intense. We're talking about playing October baseball. Then you come back the next year, it's April. It's a long season. You just don't have that same sort of edge that you had from playing these you know, winner go home games, packed houses, the energy, the adrenaline, everything on the line. It's just a different environment and the vibe. And we all can say, well, they all count the same, you should all try just as hard. But it's human nature that the edge just simply isn't there. And I think you nailed it on the Dodgers, Joe. I think they know they're a good team, they're certainly not panicked, but at the same time, they just don't have that same edge.
It's just human nature. And as you said, you've lived it.
Yeah, and a big fan of all kinds of sports history. You need Larry Bird, you need Michael Jordan, you need Magic Johnson, you need Tom Brady, you need Derek Jeter. You know, there's that one guy. Now. I know Freddie Freeman has a great reputation, and Rooki's really good and all that stuff and show a show. Hey, but when I really listen to or read about these other guys, they were so possessed, possessed of winning constantly, regardless of what happened the previous year. They did see it with first time eyes, and they did feel first time passion annually they were so driven, So I really to be in a hunt annually and not show any kind of wear and tear. I think a lot of it has to do with having that one beast within your group, the one the one athlete player, the true leader by example that just is not going to be denied and he's never satiated because he never can be satiated. And I think that's what some groups are missing or which prevents I mean, we were good in seventeen. We got all the way back to the CS, had a tough plane, right and that an Albuquerque spent the night before we went to LA and that really hurt us, I thought, momentum wise, so and fifteen was just a glorious year that we just built into sixteen. But there's there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that that needs to be a tenant to paid attention to having that savage on your within your group that just will not permit you to relaxed. That's what you need.
Well, that's the National League West, which I think is one of the bigger stories of the first month of the season. Joe is just the depth of that division and they're going to start playing each other. The kind of intramurals part of the schedule is coming up with the when they're going ahead to head. We haven't seen much of that the Dodgers and the Padres that played the Rockies, but that's been about it up until now. We'll start seeing head to head competition. That should be a lot of fun. Which brings us to our ninth inning and Joe Madden.
You have the ball to close it out. What do you have for us today?
I'm being selfish today. Sorry, that's allowed, Okay, I'm today we drive back to Pennsylvania. Our trek begins back to where civilization began, the cradle of the cradle of civilization with the Eastern Pennsylvania. So I got a little nostalgic with that, and I found some cool little things I think appeals to everybody. I got to go with two of them today. Number one, the magic thing about home is that it feels good to leave, and it feels eve and better to come back. And that's where I'm at right now. It's Tampa's like my second home. I love coming down here. It's the best. Had a wonderful time down here, friends. I got friends down here, a little bit of family around in the area too, But there's nothing like going back home. And then I love this one too. Home is not a place, it's a feeling and it's true, you know, you just you start imagining that special room, you know, the morning, the golf cart going down to the driving range in the morning, steak cooking a really good steak on the grill in the back car, of me, coming by my sister, going up to see my mom being me up on the hill. It's just, it's just it's a feeling, the thought that a feeling that never leaves. So home is not a place. It's a feeling.
That's awesome.
I love that, and it's amazing how there are certain memories and for me it's a lot of times, Joe is the smells, right, YEA talking about maybe the fresh cut grass or whatever.
It's a certain time of year.
I feel that, even in the fall, when it comes time with a start a football practice. You know, just there's something about the air, the smell of the things around you, and it's just it's so funny how smells, that sensory feeling becomes so much a part of what you think about when it comes to home.
Percent the scent of being home right, I cannot agree with you more. Just like picking a tomato plant and that that residue, that smell that left on your hand. I can't wait to grow the tomatoes for this year. I love to cut the grass weirdly I do. I go play golf, I come back and take care of the yard. I love that. I've always been like a practicing amateur agronomous for years. I love all of that stuff. And even when at the old ballpark, man, when they would cut the grass the day they would cut the grass, although it might bother me allergy wise, something in my nose and favorite like reach down to pick up a ball and then scratch the dryer, I'd start burning because of the grass on the ball. Whatever. But all those things are important, man, and I'm really looking forward to becoming reacquainted.
It makes me think of my favorite time I'm at a ballpark, Joe, And it really doesn't happen anymore. Is you get out early for batting practice, early batting practice, and there's no organ being played, there's no music being played. All you hear is just the sound of the ball hitting off the bat and just resonating. If you'l like, you know, you're at Carnegie Hall and somebody doing going through their warm ups before the crowd gets in. Very rarely happens anymore. There's so much music and noise at a ballpark. I kind of miss those times where it's it literally is just the sound of the bat.
Agreed to one hundred percent. I love the driving throughout Pennsylvania when I get back right now, just doing different things and you run into like a ballpark, a little field with a backstop on in the middle of nowhere, And to me, that is the essence. I don't know that enough of us remember all that, or enough of us appreciate that even today when I see an isolated ballpark somewhere, to me, that's what this is all about. That's what our game is all about. And that's one thing I hope we would never forget. Should not be remember to sell glitzy and glamorous and control. It should be that field, you know, hopefully eighteen kids showing up, maybe ten whatever, and you divide up into two and play a game out there, no parents around, nobody there to organize this whole thing. Just go play, just have some fun. Play of the game and learn. Let's just learn how to hit a baseball and how to throw it accurately, how to pick up a ground up ball on a rocky field, all those things. That's what I love about driving around P eight when I get back home this time of the year.
Great stuff, Joe, We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe from beautiful Pennsylvania.
That's a hey you. That's right, Thanks Tommy, you will, buddy.
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