Hey there, and welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden, and we are lucky enough to get Joe off the golf course so we can talk National League at American League Championship Series. How's the game these days, Joe?

Hey there, and welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden, and we are lucky enough to get Joe off the golf course so we can talk National League at American League Championship Series. How's the game these days, Joe?

You know what it's been, It's been actually pretty good. When my one of my matches the other day at their local Ryder Cup, I'm gonna brag you a little bit here because we have like a nine hole event.

You know what it's been, It's been actually pretty good. When my one of my matches the other day at their local Ryder Cup, I'm gonna brag you a little bit here because we have like a nine hole event.

It was a three nines on.

It was a three nines on.

The first day and we closed our guys out on the one nine hole. I had four birdies and nine holes in seven holes. Never done that before in my life. And then yesterday it was down in Philadelphia at the Darren Dalton Foundational Event.

The first day and we closed our guys out on the one nine hole. I had four birdies and nine holes in seven holes. Never done that before in my life. And then yesterday it was down in Philadelphia at the Darren Dalton Foundational Event.

I'll tell you what.

I'll tell you what.

It could not have been windy. Your could not. I don't think I've ever played a win like that. But me and three other four of the young men Andrew, two Joe's and a Matt We had a right time and so I got back kind of late.

It could not have been windy. Your could not. I don't think I've ever played a win like that. But me and three other four of the young men Andrew, two Joe's and a Matt We had a right time and so I got back kind of late.

It's all good stuff.

It's all good stuff.

Ryder Cup was fun and whenever you have a chance to do these charity golf events, they raise a ton of dough. Darren Dalton, the great guy, died terribly young. And so anyway, it went down here yesterday. I got to see Boa, Johnny Cruck, Ruben Tomorrow, a lot of guys, a lot of Phillies that I love. So it was a good day.

Ryder Cup was fun and whenever you have a chance to do these charity golf events, they raise a ton of dough. Darren Dalton, the great guy, died terribly young. And so anyway, it went down here yesterday. I got to see Boa, Johnny Cruck, Ruben Tomorrow, a lot of guys, a lot of Phillies that I love. So it was a good day.

Yeah, we'll get to this a little bit later. Those Phillies, fans and players still looking their wounds after a team we both like coming into this postseason. Joe is out. We'll talk about that in a minute, but first I want to get your overall impressions here as we sit here at the National League Championship Series, the Yankees playing the Guardians, the Mets playing the Los Angeles Dodgers. What has jumped out at you so far? If you see a pattern overall in this postseason, something that surprised you, and I talked to you Joe Madden about the twenty twenty four playoffs, what really has caught your eye?

Yeah, we'll get to this a little bit later. Those Phillies, fans and players still looking their wounds after a team we both like coming into this postseason. Joe is out. We'll talk about that in a minute, but first I want to get your overall impressions here as we sit here at the National League Championship Series, the Yankees playing the Guardians, the Mets playing the Los Angeles Dodgers. What has jumped out at you so far? If you see a pattern overall in this postseason, something that surprised you, and I talked to you Joe Madden about the twenty twenty four playoffs, what really has caught your eye?

Well, you know the biggest Well, I guess it's become in vogue. I mean the usage of the bullpen. Obviously bullpens with Detroit, you know, they they did their thing in Houston. But it's so difficult to go through that many games with this kind of a pressure and attitude. Uh, and have your really pictures really come through time and time and time again. It's not easy, and it's it's it might be a temporary fix, but it's difficult to go further than that.

Well, you know the biggest Well, I guess it's become in vogue. I mean the usage of the bullpen. Obviously bullpens with Detroit, you know, they they did their thing in Houston. But it's so difficult to go through that many games with this kind of a pressure and attitude. Uh, and have your really pictures really come through time and time and time again. It's not easy, and it's it's it might be a temporary fix, but it's difficult to go further than that.

I'll say it run run down.

I'll say it run run down.

Uh.

Uh.

You know, everybody keeps waiting for him the fall, and you know he's he's he stubs his tone now and then. But that was pretty spectacular yesterday. With the guy did during the course of the season was kind of it's kind of a typical good adding maybe two good addings, bad adding whatever, and always concerned about him blowing up, but he didn't do that yesterday, So that that really stood out to me. I give him, give him credit because he hears a lot of negativity and I really liked what he did yesterday, and congratulations to him and the Yankees. But like you're saying, the dumping of the Phillies, we're gonna touch on that a bit.

You know, everybody keeps waiting for him the fall, and you know he's he's he stubs his tone now and then. But that was pretty spectacular yesterday. With the guy did during the course of the season was kind of it's kind of a typical good adding maybe two good addings, bad adding whatever, and always concerned about him blowing up, but he didn't do that yesterday, So that that really stood out to me. I give him, give him credit because he hears a lot of negativity and I really liked what he did yesterday, and congratulations to him and the Yankees. But like you're saying, the dumping of the Phillies, we're gonna touch on that a bit.

The look, I mean, I'm into the look.

The look, I mean, I'm into the look.

You know, you can see, guys, when a team kind of takes charge, it's going to becomes difficult for the other side to continue to believe in we can do this, even though you might be the favorite.

You know, you can see, guys, when a team kind of takes charge, it's going to becomes difficult for the other side to continue to believe in we can do this, even though you might be the favorite.

So you know, I'm going to some abstract stuff right here.

So you know, I'm going to some abstract stuff right here.

But that's pretty much what I look into when I watch games. It's not so much the excess and o's I look at kind of like the attitudes and the methods and how people go about their business. And is it as as you predictors. We think like we thought, but we're wrong. You have to be ready for surprises and all of that kind of stuff. So it just it's just men baseball players. Some are rising to the occasion, some not so much. I mean, Aaron Judge has really been struggling, and I watched his swings last night. Everybody's talking about what he needs to do. He needs to accept his walks. That's my opinion. Aaron Judge needs to accept his walks, reorganize a strike. So once he does that, heads up, you're going to start flying all over the place. And then Stanton, you know, here's a guy that everybody wants to. It's almost like a Rendon Rendon Bury the guy, but here he comes again. So attitudes rising to the occasion, those that may follow a negative pattern, whatever, that's what I look into more than anything, and that's what's fascinating to me.

But that's pretty much what I look into when I watch games. It's not so much the excess and o's I look at kind of like the attitudes and the methods and how people go about their business. And is it as as you predictors. We think like we thought, but we're wrong. You have to be ready for surprises and all of that kind of stuff. So it just it's just men baseball players. Some are rising to the occasion, some not so much. I mean, Aaron Judge has really been struggling, and I watched his swings last night. Everybody's talking about what he needs to do. He needs to accept his walks. That's my opinion. Aaron Judge needs to accept his walks, reorganize a strike. So once he does that, heads up, you're going to start flying all over the place. And then Stanton, you know, here's a guy that everybody wants to. It's almost like a Rendon Rendon Bury the guy, but here he comes again. So attitudes rising to the occasion, those that may follow a negative pattern, whatever, that's what I look into more than anything, and that's what's fascinating to me.

But there's a lot to unpack there, Joe, Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah, I mean that was a little James Joyce stream of consciousness.

But there's a lot to unpack there, Joe, Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah, I mean that was a little James Joyce stream of consciousness.

I like that.

I like that.

You know, let's start with the Yankees, okay, and the Yankees Guardian series. You mentioned the star power on the Yankees, right, and you're watching you know, Soto go Yard, You're watching a Stanton just completely come alive at which he does in October. Judge is still a force, and I agree with you, he's fine. I think there's a natural tendency to press. I know, Joe, you like to talk about the five levels of being a professional. There's almost another six to one, and that is getting it done as a star player in October. Because until you change that narrative that is there and you will be asked about it. And I don't care who you are, it weighs on players. It doesn't mean he can't play well in October. It doesn't mean that he won't play well in October. It just means he hasn't yet. So he has to remove that and then you'll see him take off. I have no doubts about that, but I see them matched up against Cleveland, Joe, I don't see anyway the Cleveland Guardians are going to score enough runs to win four games. I really don't. I mean, I gotta be honest with you. Watching the Yankees, they're not actually a great watch. They're averaging seven walks per game in the postseason. I mean, Kansas City, great pitching staff, afraid to pitch the Yankees, Cleveland great pitching staff, afraid to pitch the Yankees, and that team will not chase. If you go into a series thinking we're gonna get the Yankees to chase, that's how we're gonna win the series, forget it. It's not happening. It's the most patient team at baseball. Sometimes I actually think they're too patient because they give away a ton of strikes. So I just see these teams that have good pitching, but when you go especially at Yankee Stadium, man, you have to have guys who attack the zone. And I'm sorry, some of these young pitchers with good arms and good men on their stuff are just not throwing the ball in the Drike zone enough. And I think you have to do that because if you pitch around the Yankees, guess what, You're still going to get beat. It's just going to take a few minutes longer to happen.

You know, let's start with the Yankees, okay, and the Yankees Guardian series. You mentioned the star power on the Yankees, right, and you're watching you know, Soto go Yard, You're watching a Stanton just completely come alive at which he does in October. Judge is still a force, and I agree with you, he's fine. I think there's a natural tendency to press. I know, Joe, you like to talk about the five levels of being a professional. There's almost another six to one, and that is getting it done as a star player in October. Because until you change that narrative that is there and you will be asked about it. And I don't care who you are, it weighs on players. It doesn't mean he can't play well in October. It doesn't mean that he won't play well in October. It just means he hasn't yet. So he has to remove that and then you'll see him take off. I have no doubts about that, but I see them matched up against Cleveland, Joe, I don't see anyway the Cleveland Guardians are going to score enough runs to win four games. I really don't. I mean, I gotta be honest with you. Watching the Yankees, they're not actually a great watch. They're averaging seven walks per game in the postseason. I mean, Kansas City, great pitching staff, afraid to pitch the Yankees, Cleveland great pitching staff, afraid to pitch the Yankees, and that team will not chase. If you go into a series thinking we're gonna get the Yankees to chase, that's how we're gonna win the series, forget it. It's not happening. It's the most patient team at baseball. Sometimes I actually think they're too patient because they give away a ton of strikes. So I just see these teams that have good pitching, but when you go especially at Yankee Stadium, man, you have to have guys who attack the zone. And I'm sorry, some of these young pitchers with good arms and good men on their stuff are just not throwing the ball in the Drike zone enough. And I think you have to do that because if you pitch around the Yankees, guess what, You're still going to get beat. It's just going to take a few minutes longer to happen.

That's a bingo right there. I cannot agree with you.

That's a bingo right there. I cannot agree with you.

More years ago, starting out with the Rays in two thousand and six, I kept hearing, well, the Rays need to get out of the Ale, so you need to get out of this division.

More years ago, starting out with the Rays in two thousand and six, I kept hearing, well, the Rays need to get out of the Ale, so you need to get out of this division.

It's too tough, financials did not match up.

It's too tough, financials did not match up.

You're never going to be successful if you don't get out of this division, and so on and so forth. In my response always was, no, we need to play in this division. This is how we're going to get better quickly. This is how we're going to be able to cope with the better teams in baseball by primarily playing in these venues. You know, playing at the Trump is one thing, but playing at the old Yankee Stadium and at Fenway Park. At that time, they were the two Giants, and even Toronto was pretty good too. But to play Yankee and Fenway often, which we did.

You're never going to be successful if you don't get out of this division, and so on and so forth. In my response always was, no, we need to play in this division. This is how we're going to get better quickly. This is how we're going to be able to cope with the better teams in baseball by primarily playing in these venues. You know, playing at the Trump is one thing, but playing at the old Yankee Stadium and at Fenway Park. At that time, they were the two Giants, and even Toronto was pretty good too. But to play Yankee and Fenway often, which we did.

I thought that would accelerate our growth.

I thought that would accelerate our growth.

My point is, I mean, and I know they're a little bit more balanced schedule now, but nevertheless, Kansas City hasn't played and these young guys have not played at the Stadium often enough, or Fenway often enough. At a certain extent, Cleveland, I mean Cleveland, all the Central Ales Central has always had a difficult time against the Yankees, and I really believe it's a familiarity kind of a thing. And that's why I loved what the Rays the ascension of the race. I think a lot of it had to do with playing in that division. You had to be on your toes every night. And you just said it. One of the things we talked about, Andrew and I back in the day was that in order to get Yankee hitters out of Red Sox hitters out, you have to be able to get him out in the strike zone. That was a big part of their foundation back then and it still is. To make you throw the ball with the play.

My point is, I mean, and I know they're a little bit more balanced schedule now, but nevertheless, Kansas City hasn't played and these young guys have not played at the Stadium often enough, or Fenway often enough. At a certain extent, Cleveland, I mean Cleveland, all the Central Ales Central has always had a difficult time against the Yankees, and I really believe it's a familiarity kind of a thing. And that's why I loved what the Rays the ascension of the race. I think a lot of it had to do with playing in that division. You had to be on your toes every night. And you just said it. One of the things we talked about, Andrew and I back in the day was that in order to get Yankee hitters out of Red Sox hitters out, you have to be able to get him out in the strike zone. That was a big part of their foundation back then and it still is. To make you throw the ball with the play.

Kevin yuclis outstanding with the Red Sox, all those guys, RTT Manny had an idea what he's doing at the plate. And look at the Yankees.

Kevin yuclis outstanding with the Red Sox, all those guys, RTT Manny had an idea what he's doing at the plate. And look at the Yankees.

You know, you talk about this Yankee team, and then I was thinking about just put the overlay those teams, like you know.

You know, you talk about this Yankee team, and then I was thinking about just put the overlay those teams, like you know.

With Sharah and Jeter Cano, Rodriguez, he could go up and you know Bernie beeven.

With Sharah and Jeter Cano, Rodriguez, he could go up and you know Bernie beeven.

Before that go over that lay them over top of one another, and see how really great those teams were and how tough that division was. So I think, you know, if I'm I want to play in the Al East, I want to play under these circumstances. I think it definitely benefits and helps this time of the year. And a lot of it has to do attitudinally mentally. What am I seeing right now? And and how how easy is it to breathe? Am I used to this?

Before that go over that lay them over top of one another, and see how really great those teams were and how tough that division was. So I think, you know, if I'm I want to play in the Al East, I want to play under these circumstances. I think it definitely benefits and helps this time of the year. And a lot of it has to do attitudinally mentally. What am I seeing right now? And and how how easy is it to breathe? Am I used to this?

You know?

You know?

There's this kind of like this force field that kind of envelops you when you walk in there. You didn't ask for it. It's something that you can't describe necessarily unless you participate in it. But it's there and when you That's what I'm saying. All the information in the world, all the great facts in the world, cannot do anything for you unless you go in there properly and able to repel the negativity in a sense, or repel this this energy and actually use it to your benefit. And that's how you win in New York. That's say win in Boston.

There's this kind of like this force field that kind of envelops you when you walk in there. You didn't ask for it. It's something that you can't describe necessarily unless you participate in it. But it's there and when you That's what I'm saying. All the information in the world, all the great facts in the world, cannot do anything for you unless you go in there properly and able to repel the negativity in a sense, or repel this this energy and actually use it to your benefit. And that's how you win in New York. That's say win in Boston.

Yeah, I listen. I like the way Cleveland plays baseball. I think Steven Vote has done an amazing job with that team. I really like the Cleveland Guardians team. I don't want this to sound like I'm banging on them. To me, it's just a bad matchup against the Yankees, because I believe the Yankees' pitching staff is just as good as Cleveland's. When you're talking about whatever it is, a thirteen or fourteen guys on the postseason roster. Now in any kind of key situation, you're going to your high leverage guys. And I think the Yankees matchup whether it's starters, well, especially starters and bullpen. They can go pitch to pitch with Cleveland, but at bat to it bat, especially slug to slug, it's a mismatch. I mean, the Yankees can just turn the game on a dime a lot deeper in the lineup than Cleveland can. And then when you give them seven walks per game, they're going to cash some of those into runs. So you know, listen, Cleveland can find a way to score four or five runs four different times against the Yankees, more power to them. I just don't see it happening.

Yeah, I listen. I like the way Cleveland plays baseball. I think Steven Vote has done an amazing job with that team. I really like the Cleveland Guardians team. I don't want this to sound like I'm banging on them. To me, it's just a bad matchup against the Yankees, because I believe the Yankees' pitching staff is just as good as Cleveland's. When you're talking about whatever it is, a thirteen or fourteen guys on the postseason roster. Now in any kind of key situation, you're going to your high leverage guys. And I think the Yankees matchup whether it's starters, well, especially starters and bullpen. They can go pitch to pitch with Cleveland, but at bat to it bat, especially slug to slug, it's a mismatch. I mean, the Yankees can just turn the game on a dime a lot deeper in the lineup than Cleveland can. And then when you give them seven walks per game, they're going to cash some of those into runs. So you know, listen, Cleveland can find a way to score four or five runs four different times against the Yankees, more power to them. I just don't see it happening.

Yeah, And you're talking about Yankee pitches versus Cleveland hitters, and that's part of why the Yankees pitching looks so good too.

Yeah, And you're talking about Yankee pitches versus Cleveland hitters, and that's part of why the Yankees pitching looks so good too.

Who who are they pitching against? Kansas City?

Who who are they pitching against? Kansas City?

Same thing I mean, And with Bobby Wood, Junior had really had a tough time. That even exaggerates the problem even more where the Yankee pitchers are even more elevated when they pay face teams that aren't And you could make the argument that oh they're they're the Indians aren't hitting because the Yankees pitching is so good, or Kansas City then because the Yankee pitching is so good. But I'm watching like Bobby with Junior expanded strikes and that's why he struggled while he did, And that's why judges and everybody's always.

Same thing I mean, And with Bobby Wood, Junior had really had a tough time. That even exaggerates the problem even more where the Yankee pitchers are even more elevated when they pay face teams that aren't And you could make the argument that oh they're they're the Indians aren't hitting because the Yankees pitching is so good, or Kansas City then because the Yankee pitching is so good. But I'm watching like Bobby with Junior expanded strikes and that's why he struggled while he did, And that's why judges and everybody's always.

Looking for answers. We always are.

Looking for answers. We always are.

And he has to do this, you know, missing his fastball whatever. But except your walks, because if these you're not going to pitch the Bobby with Junior, they don't want to pitch the judge necessarily. But now that they see that he's off a little bit, maybe a little bit more assertive with him. However, for me, when you're walking, you're hitting these guys that are really good that may be struggling, especially this time of the year. For me, I would really pay attention to with their swinging at more than anything, because you've got to force those pitchers back in. You accept your walks, you set the table for the next guy, and eventued, before you know what, you're going to find your cookie and it's going to go far. So it is a day Yankee pitching has been so good or the offenses they've been facing has made them look better than they are.

And he has to do this, you know, missing his fastball whatever. But except your walks, because if these you're not going to pitch the Bobby with Junior, they don't want to pitch the judge necessarily. But now that they see that he's off a little bit, maybe a little bit more assertive with him. However, for me, when you're walking, you're hitting these guys that are really good that may be struggling, especially this time of the year. For me, I would really pay attention to with their swinging at more than anything, because you've got to force those pitchers back in. You accept your walks, you set the table for the next guy, and eventued, before you know what, you're going to find your cookie and it's going to go far. So it is a day Yankee pitching has been so good or the offenses they've been facing has made them look better than they are.

Well, let's also say goodbye to some teams we had here in the postseason. You mentioned Kansas City, I mean, unbelievable year, right Mac Ltrarro takes them from one hundred and six losses into the postseason. Listen, I think these Central teams definitely benefit from playing the Chicago White Sox thirteen times, There's no question about that. Edges over teams like Seattle and Boston and wildcard contenders who didn't have the advantage, but they did take advantage of it. I'd take nothing away from them for that. But you're right. You see Bobby Wait, classic case of a great player, and I mean he's a great player, so much fun to watch, a definition of a franchise player. For me, just trying to do too much in the postseason moment. And it goes by quickly. You know, it's like there wasn't time for him to readjust and settle things down. Before you know it, you're out in your home. But a great learning experience. He in the Kansas City were I just think, Joe, that team needs to find a lot more bets. I mean, they just there's no depth of that lineup. It's too easy to pitch too. I like their pitching. Cole Reagan's is a star already and will continue to be. I think he's just a pleasure to watch with that change up, and you know, Lugo and Waka were great signs. I think it's a good sign to other teams that you know are coming off down seasons that you're not that far away. Just spend some dough on some guys who can give you some innings. So that's my take on the Royals. I think they have to invest to me in offense, Joe, where they get it on the free agent market trades. I don't know. They have some good young players, but they need a little more thump in that lineup.

Well, let's also say goodbye to some teams we had here in the postseason. You mentioned Kansas City, I mean, unbelievable year, right Mac Ltrarro takes them from one hundred and six losses into the postseason. Listen, I think these Central teams definitely benefit from playing the Chicago White Sox thirteen times, There's no question about that. Edges over teams like Seattle and Boston and wildcard contenders who didn't have the advantage, but they did take advantage of it. I'd take nothing away from them for that. But you're right. You see Bobby Wait, classic case of a great player, and I mean he's a great player, so much fun to watch, a definition of a franchise player. For me, just trying to do too much in the postseason moment. And it goes by quickly. You know, it's like there wasn't time for him to readjust and settle things down. Before you know it, you're out in your home. But a great learning experience. He in the Kansas City were I just think, Joe, that team needs to find a lot more bets. I mean, they just there's no depth of that lineup. It's too easy to pitch too. I like their pitching. Cole Reagan's is a star already and will continue to be. I think he's just a pleasure to watch with that change up, and you know, Lugo and Waka were great signs. I think it's a good sign to other teams that you know are coming off down seasons that you're not that far away. Just spend some dough on some guys who can give you some innings. So that's my take on the Royals. I think they have to invest to me in offense, Joe, where they get it on the free agent market trades. I don't know. They have some good young players, but they need a little more thump in that lineup.

Let me ask you this, do they just have like a paradigm shift regarding how we're going to do this, it's hard to just find sluggers or on a market, right, It's just it's hard to go out because they.

Let me ask you this, do they just have like a paradigm shift regarding how we're going to do this, it's hard to just find sluggers or on a market, right, It's just it's hard to go out because they.

Can't purchase them. They're that purchasing power.

Can't purchase them. They're that purchasing power.

You know, they're not going to get Soto as an example more than like, so, what's wrong with creating your own set of metrics, your own new vision, whereas maybe maybe speed pitching and defense is where they need to go and get away from that. I mean, you know you're trying to be that and you're not. And is it in your organization? Is it in your minor league system? Are these people actually forthcoming? Are you going to find them soon? Probably not? I mean that's to me where I used to talk to theopsy in about this, about the draft when there was more rounds, and I said, there's forty rounds in the draft. They think at that particular point, why not spend the last like thirty to forty on just absolute athletes and speed guys. I think we've talked about this reminiscent of the old Kansas City Royals baseball academy. If you hit on one guy a year, after three or four years, man, you've got three or four guys in your funnel. There they can really impact your major league team. Kansas City's got a big ballpark, it's big, big gaps, et cetera. So what's wrong with like coming out with a different kind of a method.

You know, they're not going to get Soto as an example more than like, so, what's wrong with creating your own set of metrics, your own new vision, whereas maybe maybe speed pitching and defense is where they need to go and get away from that. I mean, you know you're trying to be that and you're not. And is it in your organization? Is it in your minor league system? Are these people actually forthcoming? Are you going to find them soon? Probably not? I mean that's to me where I used to talk to theopsy in about this, about the draft when there was more rounds, and I said, there's forty rounds in the draft. They think at that particular point, why not spend the last like thirty to forty on just absolute athletes and speed guys. I think we've talked about this reminiscent of the old Kansas City Royals baseball academy. If you hit on one guy a year, after three or four years, man, you've got three or four guys in your funnel. There they can really impact your major league team. Kansas City's got a big ballpark, it's big, big gaps, et cetera. So what's wrong with like coming out with a different kind of a method.

To winning baseball games.

To winning baseball games.

Everybody's going to talk about slug and home runs win games, and I get that.

Everybody's going to talk about slug and home runs win games, and I get that.

However, if you'd really compound.

However, if you'd really compound.

Speed, especially with the way the rules are slanted right now to speed with base stealing and contact, I'm just curious.

Speed, especially with the way the rules are slanted right now to speed with base stealing and contact, I'm just curious.

I mean, so to really try to build.

I mean, so to really try to build.

Your team like everybody else and just try to be like everybody else. You know, like you said, you might get to the playoffs like this, but is the goal just to get to the playoffs or is the goal to get to the last game.

Your team like everybody else and just try to be like everybody else. You know, like you said, you might get to the playoffs like this, but is the goal just to get to the playoffs or is the goal to get to the last game.

Of the season and win it the last game of the World Series.

Of the season and win it the last game of the World Series.

So maybe a paradigm shift, maybe a different method of putting our group together, something that's more attainable to us speed, defense, and pitching.

So maybe a paradigm shift, maybe a different method of putting our group together, something that's more attainable to us speed, defense, and pitching.

I don't know, I would have to have that conversation.

I don't know, I would have to have that conversation.

Yeah, listen, I love balance if that's what you're talking about, But I'm not going all in with nineteen eighties baseball because you need to hit the ball at the ballpark in today's games, simple as that. It's too hard to hit in today's game to be a rally team. And you look at the teams who get into the postseason, they're all in the top half of Major leage Baseball and home runs all of them. I don't think there's a path in today's game to be you know what, do you Herzog's Cardinals and do it that way? Do I want more balance? Absolutely? That's one reason why I liked the Padres team a lot, because they did put the ball in play. Well, let's talk about the Tigers, another team bounced out of the American League. What was your takeaway from Detroit? You mentioned their bullpen, Joe. To me, it's not sustainable. You know, it did catch up to them a little bit. But I give them a ton of credit because they did something that's really hard to do, Joe, And I'm not sure if you ever did this in Tampa Bay, but they made a transition during the season to a younger team, and they basically had a transitional year in a span of two months where they had a ton of positional players from ages let's say twenty three to twenty seven, all pop at the same time and they all got a little bit of a taste of the postseason apple that bodes really well for that team that has a tremendous number of really high level arms. So I'm bullesh on the Tigers. They just need to continue to develop these young players, you know, bring them along at a rate. As you know, Joe, that development is not linear. Some guys will go backwards, some guys will go forward. But man, what a successful year. Even if they hadn't got into the postseason, it was successful. But that was just a bonus for me to see these young players come along and develop at the big league level and then get into the postseason.

Yeah, listen, I love balance if that's what you're talking about, But I'm not going all in with nineteen eighties baseball because you need to hit the ball at the ballpark in today's games, simple as that. It's too hard to hit in today's game to be a rally team. And you look at the teams who get into the postseason, they're all in the top half of Major leage Baseball and home runs all of them. I don't think there's a path in today's game to be you know what, do you Herzog's Cardinals and do it that way? Do I want more balance? Absolutely? That's one reason why I liked the Padres team a lot, because they did put the ball in play. Well, let's talk about the Tigers, another team bounced out of the American League. What was your takeaway from Detroit? You mentioned their bullpen, Joe. To me, it's not sustainable. You know, it did catch up to them a little bit. But I give them a ton of credit because they did something that's really hard to do, Joe, And I'm not sure if you ever did this in Tampa Bay, but they made a transition during the season to a younger team, and they basically had a transitional year in a span of two months where they had a ton of positional players from ages let's say twenty three to twenty seven, all pop at the same time and they all got a little bit of a taste of the postseason apple that bodes really well for that team that has a tremendous number of really high level arms. So I'm bullesh on the Tigers. They just need to continue to develop these young players, you know, bring them along at a rate. As you know, Joe, that development is not linear. Some guys will go backwards, some guys will go forward. But man, what a successful year. Even if they hadn't got into the postseason, it was successful. But that was just a bonus for me to see these young players come along and develop at the big league level and then get into the postseason.

Well, the fifteen Cubs became the sixteen Cubs. I mean, the fifteen Cubs were not expected to go that far. We had some kind of organizational major league players at that time. We had a lot of young guys that were finding their footing, and eventually in sixteen it became pretty good. So I've been with I think that's a really good example. My time with the Rays, we had young group that became better, but we also augmented that group with some really chosen veterans for the two thousand and eight run and then after that. So there was a homegrown a lot of homegrown, a lot of homegrown arms, which was really a big part of the success there. The bullpen was kind of veteran, which I've always liked to like the veteran bullpen. Those guys really know how to take care of themselves. They've been beyond. They get beyond all the sore arms and being able to pitch two three days in a row and understand how to do that. So I think I've been a part of those kind of groups where the young group, all of a sudden gaels comes together and they did. You're exactly right, they did, but it isn't linear, and you have to see it the developmental process. You got to see it again next year because when you start gaining momentum like this, you definitely need to grow from there. You definitely don't want to take a step backward. And the fact that they did do it and their pitching is that strong, that to me really stands out. I love their shortstop acquisition too. You know, training flowerty Away, nobody's talked about that. I haven't really heard about it a whole lot, but trading flowerty Away probably heard them in this postseason a little bit, but the short stuff they got. I was really really enjoyed watching him playing. I think he's going to be very good. So and what has that been about hobby bias moving forward?

Well, the fifteen Cubs became the sixteen Cubs. I mean, the fifteen Cubs were not expected to go that far. We had some kind of organizational major league players at that time. We had a lot of young guys that were finding their footing, and eventually in sixteen it became pretty good. So I've been with I think that's a really good example. My time with the Rays, we had young group that became better, but we also augmented that group with some really chosen veterans for the two thousand and eight run and then after that. So there was a homegrown a lot of homegrown, a lot of homegrown arms, which was really a big part of the success there. The bullpen was kind of veteran, which I've always liked to like the veteran bullpen. Those guys really know how to take care of themselves. They've been beyond. They get beyond all the sore arms and being able to pitch two three days in a row and understand how to do that. So I think I've been a part of those kind of groups where the young group, all of a sudden gaels comes together and they did. You're exactly right, they did, but it isn't linear, and you have to see it the developmental process. You got to see it again next year because when you start gaining momentum like this, you definitely need to grow from there. You definitely don't want to take a step backward. And the fact that they did do it and their pitching is that strong, that to me really stands out. I love their shortstop acquisition too. You know, training flowerty Away, nobody's talked about that. I haven't really heard about it a whole lot, but trading flowerty Away probably heard them in this postseason a little bit, but the short stuff they got. I was really really enjoyed watching him playing. I think he's going to be very good. So and what has that been about hobby bias moving forward?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Yeah, they're reminiscent of the fifteen Cubbies on the verge. Maybe I don't know if they could go out for a well chosen veteran or two that they need for next year to really galvanize this whole group. But yeah, they're kind of on that path.

Yeah, they're reminiscent of the fifteen Cubbies on the verge. Maybe I don't know if they could go out for a well chosen veteran or two that they need for next year to really galvanize this whole group. But yeah, they're kind of on that path.

They needed Johnny Lester.

They needed Johnny Lester.

That's right, That's exactly what I was thinking as I was saying that.

That's right, That's exactly what I was thinking as I was saying that.

And just remember, folks, you heard it here first, the twenty twenty five Tigers analogous to the twenty sixteen Chicago Cubs. Hey, we're going to take a quick break. When we get back on the Book of Joe, I want to dive into a fascinating series already after two games, and that is the National League Championship series the New York Mets and the Los Angeles Dodgers. It looks like a long series, will it be? We'll talk about that after this. Welcome Back to the Book of Joe podcast breaking down the National League Championship Series. It's been a good one, so, Joe. The Dodgers looked like an absolute juggernaut. In Game one. They handed the Mets their worst loss in their one hundred game postseason history, nine to nothing, non competitive game. And there are the Dodgers on a roll of what was it, thirty three consecutive twenty three consecutive scoreless innings, whatever it was. I didn't give it up a run since the third inning of Game three in the NLDS. Just clicking on all cylinders and then boom. Game two opens up with Francisco Lindor hitting a home run after a long a bat man? Was that you die? You talk about a guy who sets the tone for the New York Mets, And then I want to get your take on this show. Second inning, there's a base open, two outs. Lindor is back up again and Dave Roberts puts up the four fingers to put him on base. The pitch to Mark Viento's right hand or on the mound, and bam, grand slam. Basically game over at that point. This is interesting, Joe. I was sitting there wondering it wasn't I don't think a terrible move. But I was thinking, how many times does a manager walk the leadoff guy in the second inning of a postseason game? Because you're walking the guy to get into deeper into the middle of the order and it's only the second inning. The answer is, it's only happened once before in postseason history. And you know who the hitter was, Francisco Lindor. Joe Girardi did that with CC Sabbathia on the mound, really to pitch the Jason Kipness and Kidness beat Sabbathia with a single Wow. So what did you think, first of all, the move there to walk Lindor to get the Viento's to go right on right two outs in the inning.

And just remember, folks, you heard it here first, the twenty twenty five Tigers analogous to the twenty sixteen Chicago Cubs. Hey, we're going to take a quick break. When we get back on the Book of Joe, I want to dive into a fascinating series already after two games, and that is the National League Championship series the New York Mets and the Los Angeles Dodgers. It looks like a long series, will it be? We'll talk about that after this. Welcome Back to the Book of Joe podcast breaking down the National League Championship Series. It's been a good one, so, Joe. The Dodgers looked like an absolute juggernaut. In Game one. They handed the Mets their worst loss in their one hundred game postseason history, nine to nothing, non competitive game. And there are the Dodgers on a roll of what was it, thirty three consecutive twenty three consecutive scoreless innings, whatever it was. I didn't give it up a run since the third inning of Game three in the NLDS. Just clicking on all cylinders and then boom. Game two opens up with Francisco Lindor hitting a home run after a long a bat man? Was that you die? You talk about a guy who sets the tone for the New York Mets, And then I want to get your take on this show. Second inning, there's a base open, two outs. Lindor is back up again and Dave Roberts puts up the four fingers to put him on base. The pitch to Mark Viento's right hand or on the mound, and bam, grand slam. Basically game over at that point. This is interesting, Joe. I was sitting there wondering it wasn't I don't think a terrible move. But I was thinking, how many times does a manager walk the leadoff guy in the second inning of a postseason game? Because you're walking the guy to get into deeper into the middle of the order and it's only the second inning. The answer is, it's only happened once before in postseason history. And you know who the hitter was, Francisco Lindor. Joe Girardi did that with CC Sabbathia on the mound, really to pitch the Jason Kipness and Kidness beat Sabbathia with a single Wow. So what did you think, first of all, the move there to walk Lindor to get the Viento's to go right on right two outs in the inning.

Yeah, I mean I can't. I can't fault him for that. I was probably discussed before the game, and I in a twenty sixteen World Series, I made decisions based on Lindoor coming to the plate.

Yeah, I mean I can't. I can't fault him for that. I was probably discussed before the game, and I in a twenty sixteen World Series, I made decisions based on Lindoor coming to the plate.

I've done that.

I've done that.

He is that good. He's been that good for a long time. That was sixteen. This is twenty four. So when that guy is on his game and he is so locked in right now, and just to typify that or explain that to me, is that when he hit that home run, that big home run recently in New York, I think it.

He is that good. He's been that good for a long time. That was sixteen. This is twenty four. So when that guy is on his game and he is so locked in right now, and just to typify that or explain that to me, is that when he hit that home run, that big home run recently in New York, I think it.

Was, Yeah, the Grand Slam of Vestavez.

Was, Yeah, the Grand Slam of Vestavez.

Yeah, he just seemed like running around the bases like an absolute professional. I mean, that just tells me how locked in he is, and that's how much he's setting the tone for this entire group. Yeah, listen, I love Viento's, but I yeah, I probably have done the same thing. I'm not saying I wouldn't, And again I would have. That would have been on my card right there. I put like a little hook around the door to get to Viento's.

Yeah, he just seemed like running around the bases like an absolute professional. I mean, that just tells me how locked in he is, and that's how much he's setting the tone for this entire group. Yeah, listen, I love Viento's, but I yeah, I probably have done the same thing. I'm not saying I wouldn't, And again I would have. That would have been on my card right there. I put like a little hook around the door to get to Viento's.

And it just makes sense. I don't care what any it is.

And it just makes sense. I don't care what any it is.

Playoff games really obviously project differently, So yeah, I could see doing that. I love Viento's and is going to be great. I think he I as his third bass play continues to improve. Heads up, this is that's a hard position to fill and to feel with that kind of abilities, and he seems like he's he's kind of okay with all this. He's kind of calm about.

Playoff games really obviously project differently, So yeah, I could see doing that. I love Viento's and is going to be great. I think he I as his third bass play continues to improve. Heads up, this is that's a hard position to fill and to feel with that kind of abilities, and he seems like he's he's kind of okay with all this. He's kind of calm about.

The whole thing.

The whole thing.

Oh, he's more than okay with it. They call him Swaggy V. This kid, he's got an ability to have tremendous confidence without being arrogant about it. I mean, he is smooth. I don't think he's a third baseman. Ok we'll see if he develops into one. I think he's gonna be playing first base next year if Pete Alonzo's signs elsewhere. Okay, but that's moving ahead. Let's look back on that game again, Joe, because what the Dodgers did, and they're always interesting to me with their pitcher usage. Right, they first thought Walker Buehler was going to pitch game two, but I think they made the right move to go to a bullpen game in game two rather than three, because you don't want to go bullpen game game three when you're playing three consecutive days. Correct, So that made sense to me. So they go into this game, they start Ryan b Or Brazier, who's just a he's an opener, and Lindor pops in for the home run. Then they go to this kid, landed Neck. They like him. He's got one of these fastballs at the metrics like, he's got high spin, he's got good vert top of his own. He also has thrown almost forty percent more innings this year than he did last year. He's a twenty seven year old rookie. He's been around, but like a lot of guys in today's game, because of COVID and because the way guys that can handle the minor leagues, he's only averaged like ninety one innings a year as a professional, so he's been way over his innings limit. And he goes out there as essentially the bulk guy that Dave Roberts has, and he was gassed. Quite frankly, he was put in the spot he wasn't ready for, and they just had to kind of ride him, and you know, before you know it, the game's out of hand. Now the Dodger offense does come back, so it becomes a six to three game, and Dave Roberts is piecing the game together without using any of his high leverage guys. We didn't know at the time, but one of them, Daniel Hudson, was down for whatever reason. He pitched the day before, wasn't feeling well. Okay, so now you've got three high leverage guys in your bullpen. The game's now six to three, it's now game again. You know, you got one of the best offenses in the game, and Mets have a closer in Edmond Diaz, who, let's face it, has been shaky, and they push him into the game into the eighth inning. So this game is far from over. So now we get to the ninth inning and he's got Edguardia Henriquez on the mound. This is a kid who's thrown three and a third major league innings. This is a kid who's twenty two years old, who has a walk rate of almost six walks per night innings in the minor leagues. What in the world is he doing out there in a three run game, a playoff game, in the ninth inning, when you have an off day the next day and your lineup is about to turn over to show Heyo Tani, Mookie Betts, Tascar, Hernandez and Freddie Freeman you are in this game. I don't get it. And none of his high leveraged guys got up in that bullpen. And what happens? This is really bad. Joe Pete a Lonzo gets a walk. I mentioned this kid really has command issues. Pete Alonzo walks into second base with a stolen base, uncontested. How in the world does that happen? The defense is completely on their toes. He Alonso is not a base stealer. To put it mildly, take second, he scores on a base hit. Now it's a four run game. And now when Betts and Hernandez come up with two men on, they're not the tying run anymore. And Diaz comes into the game, he was so shaky. In fact, they had a guy up behind him in a bullpen after two batters. I just don't understand how you're not using at least one of your high leverage guys to keep the game at six to three. You've got an off day the next day, and you let a postseason game get away from you, which should never happen. That's the cardinal rule for me. You're in a postseason game, man, if you got a chance to win the game, you have to keep trying to win that game and stop worrying about, hey, we got three games in a row in New York.

Oh, he's more than okay with it. They call him Swaggy V. This kid, he's got an ability to have tremendous confidence without being arrogant about it. I mean, he is smooth. I don't think he's a third baseman. Ok we'll see if he develops into one. I think he's gonna be playing first base next year if Pete Alonzo's signs elsewhere. Okay, but that's moving ahead. Let's look back on that game again, Joe, because what the Dodgers did, and they're always interesting to me with their pitcher usage. Right, they first thought Walker Buehler was going to pitch game two, but I think they made the right move to go to a bullpen game in game two rather than three, because you don't want to go bullpen game game three when you're playing three consecutive days. Correct, So that made sense to me. So they go into this game, they start Ryan b Or Brazier, who's just a he's an opener, and Lindor pops in for the home run. Then they go to this kid, landed Neck. They like him. He's got one of these fastballs at the metrics like, he's got high spin, he's got good vert top of his own. He also has thrown almost forty percent more innings this year than he did last year. He's a twenty seven year old rookie. He's been around, but like a lot of guys in today's game, because of COVID and because the way guys that can handle the minor leagues, he's only averaged like ninety one innings a year as a professional, so he's been way over his innings limit. And he goes out there as essentially the bulk guy that Dave Roberts has, and he was gassed. Quite frankly, he was put in the spot he wasn't ready for, and they just had to kind of ride him, and you know, before you know it, the game's out of hand. Now the Dodger offense does come back, so it becomes a six to three game, and Dave Roberts is piecing the game together without using any of his high leverage guys. We didn't know at the time, but one of them, Daniel Hudson, was down for whatever reason. He pitched the day before, wasn't feeling well. Okay, so now you've got three high leverage guys in your bullpen. The game's now six to three, it's now game again. You know, you got one of the best offenses in the game, and Mets have a closer in Edmond Diaz, who, let's face it, has been shaky, and they push him into the game into the eighth inning. So this game is far from over. So now we get to the ninth inning and he's got Edguardia Henriquez on the mound. This is a kid who's thrown three and a third major league innings. This is a kid who's twenty two years old, who has a walk rate of almost six walks per night innings in the minor leagues. What in the world is he doing out there in a three run game, a playoff game, in the ninth inning, when you have an off day the next day and your lineup is about to turn over to show Heyo Tani, Mookie Betts, Tascar, Hernandez and Freddie Freeman you are in this game. I don't get it. And none of his high leveraged guys got up in that bullpen. And what happens? This is really bad. Joe Pete a Lonzo gets a walk. I mentioned this kid really has command issues. Pete Alonzo walks into second base with a stolen base, uncontested. How in the world does that happen? The defense is completely on their toes. He Alonso is not a base stealer. To put it mildly, take second, he scores on a base hit. Now it's a four run game. And now when Betts and Hernandez come up with two men on, they're not the tying run anymore. And Diaz comes into the game, he was so shaky. In fact, they had a guy up behind him in a bullpen after two batters. I just don't understand how you're not using at least one of your high leverage guys to keep the game at six to three. You've got an off day the next day, and you let a postseason game get away from you, which should never happen. That's the cardinal rule for me. You're in a postseason game, man, if you got a chance to win the game, you have to keep trying to win that game and stop worrying about, hey, we got three games in a row in New York.

Okay. First of all, jug run. I'm into the jug run. That is when you're huge when you score on the.

Okay. First of all, jug run. I'm into the jug run. That is when you're huge when you score on the.

Top of the ninth with the leader, at the bottom of the eighth with the lead, and that's what they did, and that totally deflates the other side. I've been on that stuff since the mid eighties and Instructional League. All my teams in the Angel organization back then, the Rays and then the Cubs always wanted to jug run. Wanted the jug run. Go for the jugular. That's number one, and it happened, and that is devastating.

Top of the ninth with the leader, at the bottom of the eighth with the lead, and that's what they did, and that totally deflates the other side. I've been on that stuff since the mid eighties and Instructional League. All my teams in the Angel organization back then, the Rays and then the Cubs always wanted to jug run. Wanted the jug run. Go for the jugular. That's number one, and it happened, and that is devastating.

Number two. The kid throws a hundred, that's all they cared about.

Number two. The kid throws a hundred, that's all they cared about.

He throws a hundred, but we could put up with the walks because nobody contacts him. That's exactly the conversation. They're looking for the swing and miss right there. He's more than likely Okay, he's going to walk a guy or two, but they're not going to move the baseball. They're not going to get hits, they're not going to score any runs. And then the next part about it is Diaz, I mean, you're right. I mean, if I go into that last inning with a three point lead or deficit and he's pitching, and I can get this leadoff guy on, we're pretty good shape.

He throws a hundred, but we could put up with the walks because nobody contacts him. That's exactly the conversation. They're looking for the swing and miss right there. He's more than likely Okay, he's going to walk a guy or two, but they're not going to move the baseball. They're not going to get hits, they're not going to score any runs. And then the next part about it is Diaz, I mean, you're right. I mean, if I go into that last inning with a three point lead or deficit and he's pitching, and I can get this leadoff guy on, we're pretty good shape.

And it's an updown for him as well. Don't forget that he's already gotten pitched in the eighth any exactly.

And it's an updown for him as well. Don't forget that he's already gotten pitched in the eighth any exactly.

And then the part of the batting leader that's coming up is really important also that you just described, So all of these things are factors, and here comes a day off. I don't trying to justify. I think that the Dodgers looking for no contact, accept the walks and possibly I don't even know if this is true or not, but get him in the game. Get him in the game because we might need him in a more crucial moment, and we need to get him in here right now to get used to this situation so that when we need him when it really does count, and an even our head situation, he has already pitched in this playoff situation. So I missed rationalization wise. I'm just trying to figure out different things. But I'm big into the jug run. They got it. I would be when you're looking at the other team that you're trying to be late, who's their closer? Witch's mo and this, and you know DIA's got a great arm. Finally yesterday started throwing his fastball too, which he just needs to stick to.

And then the part of the batting leader that's coming up is really important also that you just described, So all of these things are factors, and here comes a day off. I don't trying to justify. I think that the Dodgers looking for no contact, accept the walks and possibly I don't even know if this is true or not, but get him in the game. Get him in the game because we might need him in a more crucial moment, and we need to get him in here right now to get used to this situation so that when we need him when it really does count, and an even our head situation, he has already pitched in this playoff situation. So I missed rationalization wise. I'm just trying to figure out different things. But I'm big into the jug run. They got it. I would be when you're looking at the other team that you're trying to be late, who's their closer? Witch's mo and this, and you know DIA's got a great arm. Finally yesterday started throwing his fastball too, which he just needs to stick to.

Yes And here's an interesting part of that, Joe, Okay, okay, one, because you're right, I think he's been and Carlos Mendoza told us this, he's been too tentative, and sometimes the game actually has sped up on him. He's were lighting the slider a lot. What he said was when he got that jug run you're talking about, his mentality then became, I'm going to throw fastballs down the middle of the plate and then if I have to tighten up and start working edges, I will. So you're right, that jug run changed so many layers to that game. That fourth run, that fourth run of the lead.

Yes And here's an interesting part of that, Joe, Okay, okay, one, because you're right, I think he's been and Carlos Mendoza told us this, he's been too tentative, and sometimes the game actually has sped up on him. He's were lighting the slider a lot. What he said was when he got that jug run you're talking about, his mentality then became, I'm going to throw fastballs down the middle of the plate and then if I have to tighten up and start working edges, I will. So you're right, that jug run changed so many layers to that game. That fourth run, that fourth run of the lead.

It does.

It does.

And again I'm telling you, I can't tell how much this goes back to the mids eighties and.

And again I'm telling you, I can't tell how much this goes back to the mids eighties and.

Instructional League in Arizona.

Instructional League in Arizona.

We played every day September fifteenth October, they got right up into Halloween, and that was a big emphasis every game, whether we got a jug run or not.

We played every day September fifteenth October, they got right up into Halloween, and that was a big emphasis every game, whether we got a jug run or not.

And even to this day.

And even to this day.

Like I heard Eddie Perez the other night on want of the broadcasts mentioned that was a jug run, and that's exactly right. You want to score in your last at bat with a lead. It definitely takes some hair or pressure off that your relief picture, your relief picture general, your manager, I mean, because there's different decisions to be made. It opens things up for you a little bit when you have that little bit of breathing room, and so It's a huge concept. I love it, done it forever, and they got it and that was a big part of the victory.

Like I heard Eddie Perez the other night on want of the broadcasts mentioned that was a jug run, and that's exactly right. You want to score in your last at bat with a lead. It definitely takes some hair or pressure off that your relief picture, your relief picture general, your manager, I mean, because there's different decisions to be made. It opens things up for you a little bit when you have that little bit of breathing room, and so It's a huge concept. I love it, done it forever, and they got it and that was a big part of the victory.

I agree, yeah, Listen, I didn't have a problem with the way Dave Roberts that's that game together to get to that point. You know, some people were asking, you know, do you get your high leverage guys in there early? But no, I think once you got back into the game at six ' three, somebody's got to be available in the bullpen of every three guys that you had left there, you know, Kopak and Phillips trying to one of those guys to come in to avoid that drug jug run because that You're right, that's an absolute dagger. One of the things that concerns me about the Dodgers, Joe, is what they do with their pitching sometimes. So now they've got Walker, Bueller and yes Younobu you have a moto going, and they have not gotten length out of those guys either. So I'm sure that was on Dave Roberts' mind either. He's kind of managing the next three games, knowing three games in a row and he doesn't really have a starter other than I guess Flaherty, right, now, who's going to give him length. I think it's a tough type rope for the Dodgers to walk when they have to do this every day, and as we know, they tend to be more on the aggressive side and getting starters out and going to the bullpen than most teams anyway.

I agree, yeah, Listen, I didn't have a problem with the way Dave Roberts that's that game together to get to that point. You know, some people were asking, you know, do you get your high leverage guys in there early? But no, I think once you got back into the game at six ' three, somebody's got to be available in the bullpen of every three guys that you had left there, you know, Kopak and Phillips trying to one of those guys to come in to avoid that drug jug run because that You're right, that's an absolute dagger. One of the things that concerns me about the Dodgers, Joe, is what they do with their pitching sometimes. So now they've got Walker, Bueller and yes Younobu you have a moto going, and they have not gotten length out of those guys either. So I'm sure that was on Dave Roberts' mind either. He's kind of managing the next three games, knowing three games in a row and he doesn't really have a starter other than I guess Flaherty, right, now, who's going to give him length. I think it's a tough type rope for the Dodgers to walk when they have to do this every day, and as we know, they tend to be more on the aggressive side and getting starters out and going to the bullpen than most teams anyway.

Yeah, that's the part about regular season, and even it bleeds into the postseason. As a manager, you're just not managing that night's bullpen. You're managing days in advance bullpen also also days that it just occurred. How many pitches did the guy throw? Many times has he been up, What does he feel like with the conversation before the game, What did he say to the pitching coach and to the bullpen coach before the game when he was playing catch in the outfield. All these things are managed. All these things are managed. That's the big part. That's why bullpen use and usage was always my biggest concern, taking care of your bullpen guys, because they do pretty much, especially in today's game, they control the whether you're going to hold the trophy.

Yeah, that's the part about regular season, and even it bleeds into the postseason. As a manager, you're just not managing that night's bullpen. You're managing days in advance bullpen also also days that it just occurred. How many pitches did the guy throw? Many times has he been up, What does he feel like with the conversation before the game, What did he say to the pitching coach and to the bullpen coach before the game when he was playing catch in the outfield. All these things are managed. All these things are managed. That's the big part. That's why bullpen use and usage was always my biggest concern, taking care of your bullpen guys, because they do pretty much, especially in today's game, they control the whether you're going to hold the trophy.

Or not at the end of the year. So it's not just about today's game.

Or not at the end of the year. So it's not just about today's game.

It definitely you have an eye on the moment, and you're always always visualizing tomorrow, the next day, whatever.

It definitely you have an eye on the moment, and you're always always visualizing tomorrow, the next day, whatever.

Now when you get to.

Now when you get to.

Is this time of the year and even to the regular season. For me, I always wanted to win tonight's game because you never know what's gonna happen tomorrow.

Is this time of the year and even to the regular season. For me, I always wanted to win tonight's game because you never know what's gonna happen tomorrow.

It could be a blowout one way or the other.

It could be a blowout one way or the other.

Your starter can throw a night inning shut off, Paul, who knows. But you're always trying to win tonight's game. But you have to always somehow be prudent about what may occur and can we actually cover that if it does occur that way A long man, A long man if something happens, or you're always worried about if something goes wrong early and how are we going to cover, how we're going to cover That's always a part of the next day's strategy too. You'll say, Okay, you know, use your bullpen tonight because Johnny Lester is starting tomorrow.

Your starter can throw a night inning shut off, Paul, who knows. But you're always trying to win tonight's game. But you have to always somehow be prudent about what may occur and can we actually cover that if it does occur that way A long man, A long man if something happens, or you're always worried about if something goes wrong early and how are we going to cover, how we're going to cover That's always a part of the next day's strategy too. You'll say, Okay, you know, use your bullpen tonight because Johnny Lester is starting tomorrow.

He's gonna probably pitch at least six or seven, So don't worry about it. You know, I get that.

He's gonna probably pitch at least six or seven, So don't worry about it. You know, I get that.

But you're still worry about what about a line drive off the ankle? So all these things are always considered as you're trying to piece this thing together. What just happened? What you guys feel like, here's tonight. This is my strategy. But what do we what do we have ahead of us? Also, and how were going to cover? So that's all part of the conversation.

But you're still worry about what about a line drive off the ankle? So all these things are always considered as you're trying to piece this thing together. What just happened? What you guys feel like, here's tonight. This is my strategy. But what do we what do we have ahead of us? Also, and how were going to cover? So that's all part of the conversation.

Let's go back to Lindoor. You brought up his name, Joe, and you know it's funny you mentioned about the intentional walk and you were there of yourself on the other side facing Lindor. He will force the manager to make decisions, right. So I asked Dave Roberts before this series, you know who in that Mets lineup is going to grab your attention? You really can't let beat you. And he said Lindor, and then he said Lindor and then he said Lindor. I think he made his point right, and Francisco Lindor is one of these I'm curious to see, Joe if you've got a comp to someone like this that you played with, managed whatever, but superstar player, we know that. But he gives you so much more. He rises to the moment. He is extremely calm, and what he's doing this year and especially this postseason, to me, is reminiscent of Derek Jeter at nineteen ninety six, where to me, it seemed like Jeter was batting out of order because he was up there all the time when anything happened. If you go back and look at the ninety six Yankees and how they came from behind in won big games, Jeter is in the middle or at the finish of every one of those rallies. And I look at Lindor and I see the same thing happening. Go back to early in the season when Carlos Mendoz, when he was struggling by the way Lindor was struggling, Carlos Mendoza made the great move of putting him in the leadoff spot. Now, Francisco hasn't been a full time leadoff hitter in five years, but what Mendoza thought was, this is going to force it takes some pressure off him. Where doesn't feel like he has to hit home runs and drive in runs, but to see pitches and get on base. That's exactly what has happened, and he has flourished in that role. A few weeks later, that's when they had that awful game against the Dodgers. They're twenty two and thirty three players only meeting after the game. Who called the meeting Francisco Lindor. Then you get late in the season, of course, the home run in Game one sixty one that puts him in the postseason off. Iglesias turned a loss into a win, clinch a playoff spot with that. Then you go back to the rally against Devin Williams that clinched the Division Series. Alonso, Yeah, I hit the home run, But how did it begin? It began with Lindor working a walk off Williams after falling behind one and two on the count. We talked about the home run against Estivus, the Grand Slam in the clincher of the ds I. Now we talk about losing nine to nothing in Game one of this CS and Lindor comes back the next afternoon, sees nine pitches, hits the ninth one out of the ballpark. This guy's just got more than a knack, Joe and the other thing, And I'm I'm curious how you look at this, Joe. I'm down there next to the Mets dugout, and I can tell you I have not seen a player who engaged with his teammates more during a game. I'm talking about what he sees on the field and telling them what's going on, what he sees in the pitcher, patters are developing, pulling guys aside. It's constant in there. And I asked him about that and he said, listen, we're all prepared with information. We have all the numbers, we know the scouting reports, we have hitters meetings before the game, but there's nothing like your view from the batter's box. And he said, that's what I do. I'll go the players and say, you know, his fastball is running today, or it's cutting today, or he's in a pattern with when he uses his breaking ball early in account. He's passing these things on to everybody, whether it's other young players are veteran players. And I can tell you, Joe, I've not seen a player. I've been in everybody's dugout, but I've not seen a great player who is so integral to how a team adjusts in real time in the course of a game. And I think that makes them even more valuable than what we know of Francisco Lindor with his skills.