The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hi there, it's Tom Verducci with Joe Madden and it's time for the latest episode of the Book of Joe Podcast. Hey Joe, We're about halfway through the baseball season and we've got the fourth of July weekend coming up. A lot going on here. I can't believe we've got here already. This season is flying by.

The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hi there, it's Tom Verducci with Joe Madden and it's time for the latest episode of the Book of Joe Podcast. Hey Joe, We're about halfway through the baseball season and we've got the fourth of July weekend coming up. A lot going on here. I can't believe we've got here already. This season is flying by.

It does what happens. And I've talked about this before. Spring training goes so slowly, that's like everybody. I love it, but it's a slow dance. And then once the season games, Wimena man, it just flies you. Jeff Ziggler, our traveling secretary with the Rays, used to rip off a page off that little pocket schedule after every month, and before you know it's the end of the year. It just you got to fasten the seat belts, get ready to go.

It does what happens. And I've talked about this before. Spring training goes so slowly, that's like everybody. I love it, but it's a slow dance. And then once the season games, Wimena man, it just flies you. Jeff Ziggler, our traveling secretary with the Rays, used to rip off a page off that little pocket schedule after every month, and before you know it's the end of the year. It just you got to fasten the seat belts, get ready to go.

But it gets quicker and quicker right now.

But it gets quicker and quicker right now.

Well, later on I want to ask you about I need some recommendations from you about what kind of tunes I should be playing for my Best Cared Barbecue on the fourth of July. That's really important stuff we're going to get into. But you mentioned about the arc of the season here, and obviously the teams can no longer say it's a bad start or it's early. And in fact, I look around baseball in the last couple of weeks here, Joe, and you can see where the tensions starting to rise on certain teams and managers. And I'm going to ask you about when that happens, how a manager deals with it. I call it when good players and good teams go bad. And you know as well as I do, teams will look to the manager to how that manager responds in those scenarios. And there have been a certain number of scenarios in the last week or so that I want you to run by you, And I want to start with Wander Franco and the Tampa Bay Rays. Now, they've been playing great, there's no problem there. They got out of the gates super fast. They really haven't taken their foot off the pedal. But Kevin Cash had to sit wander Franco for a couple of days. Basically, if I can Parafe raised what Cash said conduct detrimental to his teammates, Basically getting frustrated over certain things not going his way and letting his behavior affect other players on the team, whether it was temper tantrums or getting in somebody's face not running something out. Joe That told me, you correct me if I'm wrong here, that this was an issue going on for a while. You know, obviously Kevin Cash is not going to respond like that to a one off incident. How bad do you think would have to be for a manager, especially in today's game, to level discipline so publicly for one of the star players.

Well, later on I want to ask you about I need some recommendations from you about what kind of tunes I should be playing for my Best Cared Barbecue on the fourth of July. That's really important stuff we're going to get into. But you mentioned about the arc of the season here, and obviously the teams can no longer say it's a bad start or it's early. And in fact, I look around baseball in the last couple of weeks here, Joe, and you can see where the tensions starting to rise on certain teams and managers. And I'm going to ask you about when that happens, how a manager deals with it. I call it when good players and good teams go bad. And you know as well as I do, teams will look to the manager to how that manager responds in those scenarios. And there have been a certain number of scenarios in the last week or so that I want you to run by you, And I want to start with Wander Franco and the Tampa Bay Rays. Now, they've been playing great, there's no problem there. They got out of the gates super fast. They really haven't taken their foot off the pedal. But Kevin Cash had to sit wander Franco for a couple of days. Basically, if I can Parafe raised what Cash said conduct detrimental to his teammates, Basically getting frustrated over certain things not going his way and letting his behavior affect other players on the team, whether it was temper tantrums or getting in somebody's face not running something out. Joe That told me, you correct me if I'm wrong here, that this was an issue going on for a while. You know, obviously Kevin Cash is not going to respond like that to a one off incident. How bad do you think would have to be for a manager, especially in today's game, to level discipline so publicly for one of the star players.

Everything is so publicly. Yeah, I you're right, it had to have been going on for a while. I actually addressed this yesterday on MLB Network, And for me, what we're permitting this to happen is my take on it. Let me see if I could explain what I'm what I mean, excuse me. I believe, first of all, the manager has to be empowered for day one to met out this kind of a discipline disciplinary action in conjunction with this coaching staff and the leadership with this group. I think sometimes the younger player that gets somewhat protected by front offices is able to get away with things to a certain level because it's almost like parenting. He will get in between the front office or people whatever higher ups, or if we want to call him and the field staff and try to play one against the other in order to curry favor because you know he's young and he's talented.

Everything is so publicly. Yeah, I you're right, it had to have been going on for a while. I actually addressed this yesterday on MLB Network, And for me, what we're permitting this to happen is my take on it. Let me see if I could explain what I'm what I mean, excuse me. I believe, first of all, the manager has to be empowered for day one to met out this kind of a discipline disciplinary action in conjunction with this coaching staff and the leadership with this group. I think sometimes the younger player that gets somewhat protected by front offices is able to get away with things to a certain level because it's almost like parenting. He will get in between the front office or people whatever higher ups, or if we want to call him and the field staff and try to play one against the other in order to curry favor because you know he's young and he's talented.

Whatever.

Whatever.

I really think that if you just permit, you just permit the manager to really take charge of this from the beginning and the leadership group within the team, that will not happen. We're just we're like, we're condoning, we're advocating. We want them to flip the ball up in the ear and then throw the ball the first base. We want them to be flamboyant in the game because it's perceived that that's what's going to bring more young people to our game.

I really think that if you just permit, you just permit the manager to really take charge of this from the beginning and the leadership group within the team, that will not happen. We're just we're like, we're condoning, we're advocating. We want them to flip the ball up in the ear and then throw the ball the first base. We want them to be flamboyant in the game because it's perceived that that's what's going to bring more young people to our game.

So I think it's interconnected.

So I think it's interconnected.

It's interconnected, and it's happen in another situations, other teams, and it's going to continue to happen unless the growing ups in a room take charge. That's how I describe it. Yeah, listen, you know me and everybody it's been wrong.

It's interconnected, and it's happen in another situations, other teams, and it's going to continue to happen unless the growing ups in a room take charge. That's how I describe it. Yeah, listen, you know me and everybody it's been wrong.

I love having a good time. We celebrate every win.

I love having a good time. We celebrate every win.

We celebrate everyone with a disco ball and a laser show. And you know, used to be like beer throwing all over everybody, but now it's water. But we celebrate, we celebrate achievement, and we always do. We have fun every day batting practice. I've actually had breakfast served on the field part of playoff games.

We celebrate everyone with a disco ball and a laser show. And you know, used to be like beer throwing all over everybody, but now it's water. But we celebrate, we celebrate achievement, and we always do. We have fun every day batting practice. I've actually had breakfast served on the field part of playoff games.

That's fun.

That's fun.

But to take the game and kind of make it more frivolous, Listen, this is not rocket science.

But to take the game and kind of make it more frivolous, Listen, this is not rocket science.

I get it.

I get it.

But we're addressing situations on the field that should be addressed early on, earlier on through. We don't do this here. That's not how we're going to play here. That's inappropriate, that's unacceptable here. Yeah, play hard, have fun, absolutely, play with your hair on fire. But when you get to the points where it's detrimental to the team and everybody else is feeling.

But we're addressing situations on the field that should be addressed early on, earlier on through. We don't do this here. That's not how we're going to play here. That's inappropriate, that's unacceptable here. Yeah, play hard, have fun, absolutely, play with your hair on fire. But when you get to the points where it's detrimental to the team and everybody else is feeling.

It, you got to step in and do something.

It, you got to step in and do something.

So I'm just saying, empower your coaches to do this up front, and your manager first of all in the leadership group, and I think you'll be able to avert some of this.

So I'm just saying, empower your coaches to do this up front, and your manager first of all in the leadership group, and I think you'll be able to avert some of this.

Yeah. I love what you said there about having fun. That everything you described there, Joe, was in the concept of team right, And I think we're looking at something if you want to look even really bigger, it's something going on culturally, and we see in baseball it has become more about me than team. It's look at me, And you can still have the look at me within a team concept when your ultimate motivation is to win the game and to be a good teammate. There's nothing wrong with showing some swag and having some fun, getting that big hit, celebrating with your teammates. But when you kind of bring that showcase baseball mentality, you know, I have to stand out. I have to you know, everything starts with I. I think that's where you get in trouble. And I think for today's manager, Joe, I mean, that is an uphill climb to try to preach, you know, the true team concept when it's not being done on the climb up to get to the major leagues.

Yeah. I love what you said there about having fun. That everything you described there, Joe, was in the concept of team right, And I think we're looking at something if you want to look even really bigger, it's something going on culturally, and we see in baseball it has become more about me than team. It's look at me, And you can still have the look at me within a team concept when your ultimate motivation is to win the game and to be a good teammate. There's nothing wrong with showing some swag and having some fun, getting that big hit, celebrating with your teammates. But when you kind of bring that showcase baseball mentality, you know, I have to stand out. I have to you know, everything starts with I. I think that's where you get in trouble. And I think for today's manager, Joe, I mean, that is an uphill climb to try to preach, you know, the true team concept when it's not being done on the climb up to get to the major leagues.

Perfect, perfect point.

Perfect, perfect point.

I mean the Showcase one hundred percent in agreement with that. I've seen that probably right around twenty ten, between twenty ten and twenty fifteen, the ascension of the showcase player, the guy that goes out and gets on a travel team and plays everywhere but his home city. Like Hazelton beating West Hazleton it is important anymore. Now Hazelton's got to beat Lansdale or Pennsbury or something down the road. By Philadelphia. You just can't win here. You have to get out and you have to travel, and when you do that, you're not winning for the sake of winning for the good old Mountaineers. You're trying to be best in show. You're trying to be the best player there so that you get the most notoriety and potentially the most scholarship offers or the highest draft ranking. And that's what these people are paying for. Parents are paying for this stuff, and it happens. Of course, it happens to the really talented who would have been in that situation regardless had the money been paid or not, as long as they've been playing somewhere.

I mean the Showcase one hundred percent in agreement with that. I've seen that probably right around twenty ten, between twenty ten and twenty fifteen, the ascension of the showcase player, the guy that goes out and gets on a travel team and plays everywhere but his home city. Like Hazelton beating West Hazleton it is important anymore. Now Hazelton's got to beat Lansdale or Pennsbury or something down the road. By Philadelphia. You just can't win here. You have to get out and you have to travel, and when you do that, you're not winning for the sake of winning for the good old Mountaineers. You're trying to be best in show. You're trying to be the best player there so that you get the most notoriety and potentially the most scholarship offers or the highest draft ranking. And that's what these people are paying for. Parents are paying for this stuff, and it happens. Of course, it happens to the really talented who would have been in that situation regardless had the money been paid or not, as long as they've been playing somewhere.

So where where again? I agree? I mean, listen, I'm all fun. I'm not the no fund league. I'm the all fund league. But I don't I can't advocate that.

So where where again? I agree? I mean, listen, I'm all fun. I'm not the no fund league. I'm the all fund league. But I don't I can't advocate that.

I think that's it's working against you. Are injuring that the team concept. You are promoting individuality.

I think that's it's working against you. Are injuring that the team concept. You are promoting individuality.

Branding.

Branding.

God, I hate when I hear somebody's working on their brand. I just that makes me cringe a little bit. So all of this stuff is interconnected. I think one hundred percent.

God, I hate when I hear somebody's working on their brand. I just that makes me cringe a little bit. So all of this stuff is interconnected. I think one hundred percent.

Right, I'm with you on that brand word as well, that brand is something that's inorganic. It's something that's created you as a human being. Have you know inorganic personality? Let that show. By the way, I liked what Kevin Cash did. I thought he was upfront, transparent. I mean, listen, you're going to have to explain yourself when your star shortstop is not in the lineup for a couple of days. So it's not like he could gloss over it. But you tell he had rehearsed what he wanted to say. He really didn't personally lies that. He just talked in general about what wonder behavior where it needed help. So good on Kevin Cash. I like the fact that he did step up and he took accountability there. And let's talk about Aaron Boone. With the Yankees. There was a manager, it might have been Tony Larus, I'm not sure who it was who once said, don't let us star fall on you managing star players, established players who are having a tough time. Man, Joe, that's got to be tough for a manager. And I look at the Yankees right now with Aaron Judge out of the lineup, and some of Aaron Boone's stars simply are not performing well. You have John Carlos Stanton who is hitting sixty eight against fastballs this month, continually beaten by fastballs, and the same is really happening with Josh Donaldson. He's hitting one twenty one against fastballs, including sixty seven when it's ninety five and above. These are star players who are just their timing just is not there. They're getting beat So you know, Aaron Boone has some other options. He's got a deep roster and he did not have Donaldson in the lineup for a couple of days and that required a couple of meetings with Josh Dollinson, who let it be known he wasn't happy about it. I don't know if you've had specific cases like that, Joe, but that's got to be really, really difficult when you've got the established player who seems to have urged your trust. But there comes a point where you've just got to set the player down and explain it to him why you're doing it.

Right, I'm with you on that brand word as well, that brand is something that's inorganic. It's something that's created you as a human being. Have you know inorganic personality? Let that show. By the way, I liked what Kevin Cash did. I thought he was upfront, transparent. I mean, listen, you're going to have to explain yourself when your star shortstop is not in the lineup for a couple of days. So it's not like he could gloss over it. But you tell he had rehearsed what he wanted to say. He really didn't personally lies that. He just talked in general about what wonder behavior where it needed help. So good on Kevin Cash. I like the fact that he did step up and he took accountability there. And let's talk about Aaron Boone. With the Yankees. There was a manager, it might have been Tony Larus, I'm not sure who it was who once said, don't let us star fall on you managing star players, established players who are having a tough time. Man, Joe, that's got to be tough for a manager. And I look at the Yankees right now with Aaron Judge out of the lineup, and some of Aaron Boone's stars simply are not performing well. You have John Carlos Stanton who is hitting sixty eight against fastballs this month, continually beaten by fastballs, and the same is really happening with Josh Donaldson. He's hitting one twenty one against fastballs, including sixty seven when it's ninety five and above. These are star players who are just their timing just is not there. They're getting beat So you know, Aaron Boone has some other options. He's got a deep roster and he did not have Donaldson in the lineup for a couple of days and that required a couple of meetings with Josh Dollinson, who let it be known he wasn't happy about it. I don't know if you've had specific cases like that, Joe, but that's got to be really, really difficult when you've got the established player who seems to have urged your trust. But there comes a point where you've just got to set the player down and explain it to him why you're doing it.

Been there.

Been there.

It is difficult, but it has to be done. You cannot let one guy be bigger than the entire group. And of course, if he's an older player, normally it could be just age related and.

It is difficult, but it has to be done. You cannot let one guy be bigger than the entire group. And of course, if he's an older player, normally it could be just age related and.

Things have slowed down.

Things have slowed down.

It could be that combined with an injury, and then on top of that, the confidence takes a hit, regardless of how much success you've had in the past, And all of a sudden, I'm going to continue to play this guy, and I know, I know the team would be much better off if I chose this younger guy, breaking man, bring him along not only now but forre in the future too. So they have to be done. And listen, Donald's and he can get hot, absolutely can get hot. And of course Danton's going to get hot there. That's all going to happen, and that's going to be down the road. But in the meantime, if you just continue to stay with these people and continue the slide, why you're seeing things, I mean, it's like, listen, it's always about seeing. I'm seeing that this ain't working right now, and it's not going to work for a while, and maybe over a course of time, sitting him down a little extra work, different way of thinking, perspective. All of a sudden it comes back and he looks like a different player somebody had in the past. But your eyes, your eyes don't lie either. Now you know you're watching this whole thing, and you see something that is different, and you have to make these decisions. And I've been there absolute one hundred percent have been there with different players, and it's a difficult thing to do. And what occurs there you just the concern there is that whomever this guy is, if he has enough cachet in the room, and if he wants to talk among everybody else and looks for allies and gets supported, that's when it becomes difficult. When the leadership group within the clubhouse is strong enough and they see a player looking for allies, you know, versus the manager of the coaching staff whatever, and he can't find any allies. Because they see the same thing and they know this is right, the right thing to do, then it works a lot more easily. So there's all these little microdynamics going on all the time.

It could be that combined with an injury, and then on top of that, the confidence takes a hit, regardless of how much success you've had in the past, And all of a sudden, I'm going to continue to play this guy, and I know, I know the team would be much better off if I chose this younger guy, breaking man, bring him along not only now but forre in the future too. So they have to be done. And listen, Donald's and he can get hot, absolutely can get hot. And of course Danton's going to get hot there. That's all going to happen, and that's going to be down the road. But in the meantime, if you just continue to stay with these people and continue the slide, why you're seeing things, I mean, it's like, listen, it's always about seeing. I'm seeing that this ain't working right now, and it's not going to work for a while, and maybe over a course of time, sitting him down a little extra work, different way of thinking, perspective. All of a sudden it comes back and he looks like a different player somebody had in the past. But your eyes, your eyes don't lie either. Now you know you're watching this whole thing, and you see something that is different, and you have to make these decisions. And I've been there absolute one hundred percent have been there with different players, and it's a difficult thing to do. And what occurs there you just the concern there is that whomever this guy is, if he has enough cachet in the room, and if he wants to talk among everybody else and looks for allies and gets supported, that's when it becomes difficult. When the leadership group within the clubhouse is strong enough and they see a player looking for allies, you know, versus the manager of the coaching staff whatever, and he can't find any allies. Because they see the same thing and they know this is right, the right thing to do, then it works a lot more easily. So there's all these little microdynamics going on all the time.

It's just when you work with a group of people.

It's just when you work with a group of people.

Tightler knit every day, highly charged, very rich and proud people. So there's a lot going on there, man, And there's a lot to deal with the regarding boonie.

Tightler knit every day, highly charged, very rich and proud people. So there's a lot going on there, man, And there's a lot to deal with the regarding boonie.

Right now, Hey, Joe, you said something interesting. I want to follow up there, and it's about sort of trusting your eyes and what you see, right, it goes beyond obviously whatever the numbers are. And sometimes it's the way a guy handles a down period. Right. I think about Anthony Volpi right now, the Yankee shortstop hitting under two hundred, and there's been a lot of clamor in the New York media about maybe he should go down. But I'll tell you what I see Joe is he's never beaten down mentally. This kid's always got a smile on his face. You know, if he gets on base, you know, we know how good of a base runner he is. He doesn't let it affect his defense. Now, he's not a premier defender, he's a good defender, but I haven't seen it affecting his game at all.

Right now, Hey, Joe, you said something interesting. I want to follow up there, and it's about sort of trusting your eyes and what you see, right, it goes beyond obviously whatever the numbers are. And sometimes it's the way a guy handles a down period. Right. I think about Anthony Volpi right now, the Yankee shortstop hitting under two hundred, and there's been a lot of clamor in the New York media about maybe he should go down. But I'll tell you what I see Joe is he's never beaten down mentally. This kid's always got a smile on his face. You know, if he gets on base, you know, we know how good of a base runner he is. He doesn't let it affect his defense. Now, he's not a premier defender, he's a good defender, but I haven't seen it affecting his game at all.

Now.

Now.

I think there's things he has to do with his swing. To me, he's got a lot of trouble with the high fastball. He's got to level out his swing to hit for a higher average. He's going to hit for extra bases because when the ball's down he can crush it. But I haven't seen this rookie shortstop for the Yankees really crushed mentally. Where you need to kind of, you know, take the pressure off him by sending him down. So maybe that's what you're getting at Joe. As a manager, I think a manager needs some leeway here to because he should know his player is better than anybody else. Kind of reading the body language, you know, the attitude the player brings to the park every day. How important is that for a manager?

I think there's things he has to do with his swing. To me, he's got a lot of trouble with the high fastball. He's got to level out his swing to hit for a higher average. He's going to hit for extra bases because when the ball's down he can crush it. But I haven't seen this rookie shortstop for the Yankees really crushed mentally. Where you need to kind of, you know, take the pressure off him by sending him down. So maybe that's what you're getting at Joe. As a manager, I think a manager needs some leeway here to because he should know his player is better than anybody else. Kind of reading the body language, you know, the attitude the player brings to the park every day. How important is that for a manager?

Yeah, I mean, right, when a guy quits on himself, then he gets sent down.

Yeah, I mean, right, when a guy quits on himself, then he gets sent down.

I mean, that's that's number one for me.

I mean, that's that's number one for me.

If the guy showed he's not quit on himself, then it really makes like you're talking.

If the guy showed he's not quit on himself, then it really makes like you're talking.

About right now, what am I seeing?

About right now, what am I seeing?

What we got with the carversations like talk to your coaches, how is he in the cage?

What we got with the carversations like talk to your coaches, how is he in the cage?

How's his ground balls? You know?

How's his ground balls? You know?

Then you talk to like the support staff in the clubhouse. Is he is he coming undone a little bit? Where's he at? I believe in all of that stuff, But I also believe in vulpy situation. This is an organizational thought. I mean, this was they made up their mind before the season began. Even if this guy goes badly, if he doesn't quit on himself, we're going to stay with him.

Then you talk to like the support staff in the clubhouse. Is he is he coming undone a little bit? Where's he at? I believe in all of that stuff, But I also believe in vulpy situation. This is an organizational thought. I mean, this was they made up their mind before the season began. Even if this guy goes badly, if he doesn't quit on himself, we're going to stay with him.

I believe.

I believe.

I'd have to believe that was part of the conversation originally, and apparently I see the same indicators when I get to watch them a little bit on TV. He has he has a nice way about him. I think they see that. They They probably have Derek Jeter thoughts in the back of their head with him somewhere, and that's sticking. And that's what happens in an organization like the Yankees that have something to draw, and so all these all these again, there's all these little micro things conspiring to make these decisions, and it's not as obvious as it appears to be. The guys hitting well right now, he's chasing breaking ball. I can't hit a high fat and I'm here to tell you he could still get sent back, I mean regardless right now, and they're trying try and try not to. I've had it with the Cubs, I've had it with the Rays, have had it with the even Angels in the past. So it's still there's still the threat of being set back. But they have He's got the longest leash you could possibly have based on how they've ordained.

I'd have to believe that was part of the conversation originally, and apparently I see the same indicators when I get to watch them a little bit on TV. He has he has a nice way about him. I think they see that. They They probably have Derek Jeter thoughts in the back of their head with him somewhere, and that's sticking. And that's what happens in an organization like the Yankees that have something to draw, and so all these all these again, there's all these little micro things conspiring to make these decisions, and it's not as obvious as it appears to be. The guys hitting well right now, he's chasing breaking ball. I can't hit a high fat and I'm here to tell you he could still get sent back, I mean regardless right now, and they're trying try and try not to. I've had it with the Cubs, I've had it with the Rays, have had it with the even Angels in the past. So it's still there's still the threat of being set back. But they have He's got the longest leash you could possibly have based on how they've ordained.

Him and what they think he's going to be.

Him and what they think he's going to be.

So he's gonna get a little bit more up patient approach.

So he's gonna get a little bit more up patient approach.

Yeah, one last thought on Volpi. I think He's so important to them because he gives them energy. This is a low energy team. They win games by hitting the ball out of the park. It's an older team. They don't take extra basis on the base pass, you know, first to third, first to home. They're not a great situational hitting team. You know, it's walksing home runs, guys mostly in their thirties. I'm let's say it's a bad thing. It's the Yankeemo. It works for them, but you need somebody in there to provide energy. And that's what I think Vulpi does. And I think without him, boy, that's even less of a dynamic team. Hey, Joe, we're gonna take quick break. When we get back, we're going to talk about one of your favorite subjects, team meetings. We'll be right back after this, Okay, Joe, I brought up the subject of team meetings. I bring it up because another team that's been scuffling, the Seattle Mariners, had one. It was last week at Yankee Stadium, second game of a three game series. Scott Service, the Seattle manager, just did not like the way his team was playing baseball. It wasn't so much they were losing, it was low energy, it was poor at bats. He just thought guys were kind of worried about their own stat line more than trying to win games. And what he told me was, listen, I don't like meetings, but I had to call one. This was after the second game in the in the clubhouse visiting team at Yankee Stadium, and he essentially aired out his team, and he said, listen, you guys know the deal at this time of year, and we're heading up to the trading deadline. If teams don't play well, that's when guys get moved. So if you keep this up, the names on top of these lockers here are going to change, and it's up to you. And they came back the next day. They scored ten runs in the first three innings, blew out the Yankees. They played better since. But it's interesting. I think what Scott Servis saw Joe was he's got a team that doesn't really have the guy in the clubhouse who you would call a team leader. Right, their best players are Julio Rodriguez and Jared Kilnick. They're twenty two and twenty three years old. Right, It's tough to ask them. They now they set the tone as far as how they play, but to be team leaders, No, that's a little early to ask them to be that. So the manager, I think in this case, has to take on some more responsibility when it comes to quote unquote leadership. So he calls a team beating the Yankee clubhouse, Yeah, they respond to the next day listen. I know for you, Joe, they're kind of few and far between, but I think sometimes you do have to pull the trigger.

Yeah, one last thought on Volpi. I think He's so important to them because he gives them energy. This is a low energy team. They win games by hitting the ball out of the park. It's an older team. They don't take extra basis on the base pass, you know, first to third, first to home. They're not a great situational hitting team. You know, it's walksing home runs, guys mostly in their thirties. I'm let's say it's a bad thing. It's the Yankeemo. It works for them, but you need somebody in there to provide energy. And that's what I think Vulpi does. And I think without him, boy, that's even less of a dynamic team. Hey, Joe, we're gonna take quick break. When we get back, we're going to talk about one of your favorite subjects, team meetings. We'll be right back after this, Okay, Joe, I brought up the subject of team meetings. I bring it up because another team that's been scuffling, the Seattle Mariners, had one. It was last week at Yankee Stadium, second game of a three game series. Scott Service, the Seattle manager, just did not like the way his team was playing baseball. It wasn't so much they were losing, it was low energy, it was poor at bats. He just thought guys were kind of worried about their own stat line more than trying to win games. And what he told me was, listen, I don't like meetings, but I had to call one. This was after the second game in the in the clubhouse visiting team at Yankee Stadium, and he essentially aired out his team, and he said, listen, you guys know the deal at this time of year, and we're heading up to the trading deadline. If teams don't play well, that's when guys get moved. So if you keep this up, the names on top of these lockers here are going to change, and it's up to you. And they came back the next day. They scored ten runs in the first three innings, blew out the Yankees. They played better since. But it's interesting. I think what Scott Servis saw Joe was he's got a team that doesn't really have the guy in the clubhouse who you would call a team leader. Right, their best players are Julio Rodriguez and Jared Kilnick. They're twenty two and twenty three years old. Right, It's tough to ask them. They now they set the tone as far as how they play, but to be team leaders, No, that's a little early to ask them to be that. So the manager, I think in this case, has to take on some more responsibility when it comes to quote unquote leadership. So he calls a team beating the Yankee clubhouse, Yeah, they respond to the next day listen. I know for you, Joe, they're kind of few and far between, but I think sometimes you do have to pull the trigger.

No, yeah, I mean I was always kind of intentional with my meetings. I would go, of course, the first day of spring training for pitchers and catchers, and then first day with the whole group, first day before the first game of the season, So I'd have three meetings that time of the year, and then All Star break would be my next meeting. And what I eventually learned to do with that is I had the meeting before the All Star break and not post All Star break, because I started out going post then I liked pre just wanted to give them something to think about before they went away for a little bit, and then before the first playoff game. That was always that was my method, and I felt pretty good about it and I liked it. And in between that if things got a little bit sideways. I know you just said about the players within the group, and I get that, but I always liked that player meetings first. I like players having meetings first, or individual meetings. Guys, call guys in with me to your coaching staff, and part of that also would be I liked by monthly meetings among the coaching staff about the players individually. Get in a room, like you're in Cincinnati road game.

No, yeah, I mean I was always kind of intentional with my meetings. I would go, of course, the first day of spring training for pitchers and catchers, and then first day with the whole group, first day before the first game of the season, So I'd have three meetings that time of the year, and then All Star break would be my next meeting. And what I eventually learned to do with that is I had the meeting before the All Star break and not post All Star break, because I started out going post then I liked pre just wanted to give them something to think about before they went away for a little bit, and then before the first playoff game. That was always that was my method, and I felt pretty good about it and I liked it. And in between that if things got a little bit sideways. I know you just said about the players within the group, and I get that, but I always liked that player meetings first. I like players having meetings first, or individual meetings. Guys, call guys in with me to your coaching staff, and part of that also would be I liked by monthly meetings among the coaching staff about the players individually. Get in a room, like you're in Cincinnati road game.

I like to do it on the road.

I like to do it on the road.

Because I don't want to take away time away at home. So on the road, you sit down, you go every player, pitchers in, every player, and you would break them down briefly and what do we have to catch up on her? What are we missing right with this guy? What's going well with this guy? And then we would take it to the player obviously, So I had a lot of meetings actually, but they were different. The air out meeting sometimes to me, is when you're frustrated, when you're upset, when you're angry, and it's for you to get it off your chest. I haven't been watching amarras enough to know exactly what's been going on, so it's always cognizant of that. I don't want to be about me. Ever, It's not about me being upset or about me being embarrassed. And he could never take it personally.

Because I don't want to take away time away at home. So on the road, you sit down, you go every player, pitchers in, every player, and you would break them down briefly and what do we have to catch up on her? What are we missing right with this guy? What's going well with this guy? And then we would take it to the player obviously, So I had a lot of meetings actually, but they were different. The air out meeting sometimes to me, is when you're frustrated, when you're upset, when you're angry, and it's for you to get it off your chest. I haven't been watching amarras enough to know exactly what's been going on, so it's always cognizant of that. I don't want to be about me. Ever, It's not about me being upset or about me being embarrassed. And he could never take it personally.

When your team plays bad, it you do, but you shouldn't.

When your team plays bad, it you do, but you shouldn't.

So all these things I would try to term of what's going on here before I got to the point next.

So all these things I would try to term of what's going on here before I got to the point next.

The final point with this, I.

The final point with this, I.

Guess is that I had one really good one, I guess in Kansas City.

Guess is that I had one really good one, I guess in Kansas City.

And I've talked about this with the Rais.

And I've talked about this with the Rais.

In two thousand and eight, we were sending and we're playing, We're good, We're I think we're in first place, we're close to it in case right after the All Star break. I believe that's accurate. And we're playing a sloppy game, I mean a sloppy game, and that Carl Crawford pulls us out of it with a double late and we win. A couple guys that right hard first base cutoff guys are being missed. Game over, we went on the road, two important factors for me.

In two thousand and eight, we were sending and we're playing, We're good, We're I think we're in first place, we're close to it in case right after the All Star break. I believe that's accurate. And we're playing a sloppy game, I mean a sloppy game, and that Carl Crawford pulls us out of it with a double late and we win. A couple guys that right hard first base cutoff guys are being missed. Game over, we went on the road, two important factors for me.

Winning and being on the road.

Winning and being on the road.

Davy Martinez, get them in that locker room as quickly.

Davy Martinez, get them in that locker room as quickly.

As you can.

As you can.

I could hold it in anymore, and I just went inside and it just went off. I mean like I'm screaming to the point where you're crying, like I don't know three minutes. I just they needed to know that this doesn't work. We haven't done anything as an organization and we're going to be in first place in August and you're going to get like shut it down or just throw your gloves out there. That's what got me angry, that lack of effort, lack of caring, lack of whatever that I thought I saw at that particular moment. It's hard to denigrate a group for you're not hustling, and I shouldn't have even said you care that you don't care. They of course they care, but you got to we got to get after a little.

I could hold it in anymore, and I just went inside and it just went off. I mean like I'm screaming to the point where you're crying, like I don't know three minutes. I just they needed to know that this doesn't work. We haven't done anything as an organization and we're going to be in first place in August and you're going to get like shut it down or just throw your gloves out there. That's what got me angry, that lack of effort, lack of caring, lack of whatever that I thought I saw at that particular moment. It's hard to denigrate a group for you're not hustling, and I shouldn't have even said you care that you don't care. They of course they care, but you got to we got to get after a little.

Bit more differently because we have never done anything.

Bit more differently because we have never done anything.

So that was the crux of the meeting in Kansas City was to really point out, listen, boys, we're gonna blow something really uh special right here if we don't turn our attitudes around our approach.

So that was the crux of the meeting in Kansas City was to really point out, listen, boys, we're gonna blow something really uh special right here if we don't turn our attitudes around our approach.

Mentally to the day. So that was it. That was my one big meeting.

Mentally to the day. So that was it. That was my one big meeting.

And I've been asked to have meetings by different gms and and and when I don't, I know it frustrates them, but it's the venture anger. Uh, there's better ways to do it. Again, if you really want to get upset with your group, they're going good, they're not going bad, and they're on the road, they're not in their home clubhouse to meet.

And I've been asked to have meetings by different gms and and and when I don't, I know it frustrates them, but it's the venture anger. Uh, there's better ways to do it. Again, if you really want to get upset with your group, they're going good, they're not going bad, and they're on the road, they're not in their home clubhouse to meet.

That's optimal.

That's optimal.

Yeah, I see some similarities there. You had a very young team back then, that Oaight team, and maybe they needed it more than say an older team.

Yeah, I see some similarities there. You had a very young team back then, that Oaight team, and maybe they needed it more than say an older team.

What do you think Well also had personally on that team.

What do you think Well also had personally on that team.

He also had Cliff Floyd, who was an outstanding leader on that team, Percy Cliff and Eric Kinski Ski was doing this thing too, So we had a nice balance. And then you have Longori, I have opt in, you have CC was still relatively young at that point. The Navarro was our starting catcher. Some pitchers young. David Price Shields, he wasn't you know, long in the tooth by any means. So there was a lot of youth there, but just a nice That's why it's nice to you know, salt and pepper, the whole thing where you do get direction from the from the clubhouse.

He also had Cliff Floyd, who was an outstanding leader on that team, Percy Cliff and Eric Kinski Ski was doing this thing too, So we had a nice balance. And then you have Longori, I have opt in, you have CC was still relatively young at that point. The Navarro was our starting catcher. Some pitchers young. David Price Shields, he wasn't you know, long in the tooth by any means. So there was a lot of youth there, but just a nice That's why it's nice to you know, salt and pepper, the whole thing where you do get direction from the from the clubhouse.

And I'm telling you it's that important.

And I'm telling you it's that important.

The guys, the players will peers will listen to the peers more intently and again there's not this choosing of size or finding allies to support my cause. You're not going to find allies within the clubhouse if it's a meeting among the players only. But if you put managers coaches against players sometimes and the players somebody has cash here, they're going to create that valley between all of this. So again, I'm just trying to describe all this as completely as I can. There's a lot of micro stuff goes into this, and it's got to be well thought out. You got to read the room. You got to read your guys. You got to know the beat to heartbeat. You got to know what you can say and cannot say to whom and how honestly without compassion, an equal cruelty. And sometimes you just got to know who handles well and who does not. And sometimes it's a blunt object and sometimes it's a velvet hammer.

The guys, the players will peers will listen to the peers more intently and again there's not this choosing of size or finding allies to support my cause. You're not going to find allies within the clubhouse if it's a meeting among the players only. But if you put managers coaches against players sometimes and the players somebody has cash here, they're going to create that valley between all of this. So again, I'm just trying to describe all this as completely as I can. There's a lot of micro stuff goes into this, and it's got to be well thought out. You got to read the room. You got to read your guys. You got to know the beat to heartbeat. You got to know what you can say and cannot say to whom and how honestly without compassion, an equal cruelty. And sometimes you just got to know who handles well and who does not. And sometimes it's a blunt object and sometimes it's a velvet hammer.

All this stuff is important.

All this stuff is important.

Yeah, And one more example of managers handling scuffling stars. Jose Abray with the Astros has had a tough season this year, and I love what Dusty Baker did last week. He gave him a day off the day before and off day, and then gave him a day off on the other side of the off day, so he gave him three days, which, as you know, Joe, it's kind of like a mini All Star break. It's a mental break as much as anything. He had dropped a Brave in the lineup to fifth or sixth, and when he brought him back last weekend after his three day break, put him back in the cleanup spot. Coincidentally or not, A Brave responded with four hits and two games, including a home run. So I love the way that Dusty Baker took advantage of the off day. And Joe, you know what even one day can do for a player, but especially three days to get the head clear. Wow.

Yeah, And one more example of managers handling scuffling stars. Jose Abray with the Astros has had a tough season this year, and I love what Dusty Baker did last week. He gave him a day off the day before and off day, and then gave him a day off on the other side of the off day, so he gave him three days, which, as you know, Joe, it's kind of like a mini All Star break. It's a mental break as much as anything. He had dropped a Brave in the lineup to fifth or sixth, and when he brought him back last weekend after his three day break, put him back in the cleanup spot. Coincidentally or not, A Brave responded with four hits and two games, including a home run. So I love the way that Dusty Baker took advantage of the off day. And Joe, you know what even one day can do for a player, but especially three days to get the head clear. Wow.

Well that was Carl Crawford. C c Carl played every day. Carl played hard. So I would look for that, exactly what you're talking about. And I said, Ceci, we're gonna do that. We're gonna get you two days off. We're going to pick the day you're gonna get the day off before the day off or the day off after the day off. And sometimes I have done the three spot too, but I would pick and choose a day before a day after based on the other team's pitcher. Like it was a tough left hand of the day after. Then give him the second day of the day after, not the day before, So you try to match it up as well as you possible. We can take advantage of the schedule. You look for rest, but within the schedule based on matchups and stuff. That's I always wanted a ten day planner in advance. I wanted ten days from the that's what I want from the analytical staff. Give me ten days in advance. Whose picture of the other team and how do our dudes match up and among the people that need a rest, when would be the optimal moment in your estimation to give.

Well that was Carl Crawford. C c Carl played every day. Carl played hard. So I would look for that, exactly what you're talking about. And I said, Ceci, we're gonna do that. We're gonna get you two days off. We're going to pick the day you're gonna get the day off before the day off or the day off after the day off. And sometimes I have done the three spot too, but I would pick and choose a day before a day after based on the other team's pitcher. Like it was a tough left hand of the day after. Then give him the second day of the day after, not the day before, So you try to match it up as well as you possible. We can take advantage of the schedule. You look for rest, but within the schedule based on matchups and stuff. That's I always wanted a ten day planner in advance. I wanted ten days from the that's what I want from the analytical staff. Give me ten days in advance. Whose picture of the other team and how do our dudes match up and among the people that need a rest, when would be the optimal moment in your estimation to give.

Him that rest?

Him that rest?

And then I would try to match it up with what I was thinking. So that to me is analytically well designed. And that's a really benefit of that where the guys can give you that kind of information so far in advance that you can make a better informed decisions. So all that is part of making your lineup rest. And I'm a big advocate of breast as you know. And it's perfect because I saw a braiw but that was in La that he was.

And then I would try to match it up with what I was thinking. So that to me is analytically well designed. And that's a really benefit of that where the guys can give you that kind of information so far in advance that you can make a better informed decisions. So all that is part of making your lineup rest. And I'm a big advocate of breast as you know. And it's perfect because I saw a braiw but that was in La that he was.

Playing right after the break.

Playing right after the break.

I think, right, that's right, And he looked he looked very frisky, no question.

I think, right, that's right, And he looked he looked very frisky, no question.

Yeah, all right, we've got to talk about talk about managers dealing with disappointments. The biggest disappointment of this twenty twenty three season is the New York Mets. You know, what is a three hundred and sixty million dollars payroll, eight games under five hundred. They have not won a series the entire month, and it's really interesting to watch the team, almost like in quicksand the more they try, the worse off it gets. And the way the manager Buck Showalter handles it. Now, he took a lot of grief for the game on Sunday against Philadelphia, where he lost the lead in the eighth inning without using his best pitchers. He had David robertson his closer, who had thrown just thirteen pitches the day before, had pitched only twice in the previous eleven days, and Buck was saving him for the ninth inning. Of course, there never was a ninth inning because Philadelphia rallied in the eighth against some of the lower pieces or lesser pieces, and Bucks bullpen. That's the way it's gone for the New York Mets, you know. And then you have a game, give the ball to Justin Verlander. The next game at home and you lose to Milwaukee two to one. Bullpen Drew Smith comes in gives up a home run after he was suspended, and by the way, Bucks bullpen was short game on Sunday because Drew Smith was serving his ten year suspension for using too much sticky stuff on his hand. You know, my question, Joe, for you is not so much about individual moves, but sometimes as a manager, did you take on some of the heat for your players? In other words, it's almost like a diversion when guys are struggling to try and hard the results are not good, that some of the stories coming out of the team would come out of the manager's office rather than falling on the players. Any any any way, that that was across your raider when you had teams that were scuffling.

Yeah, all right, we've got to talk about talk about managers dealing with disappointments. The biggest disappointment of this twenty twenty three season is the New York Mets. You know, what is a three hundred and sixty million dollars payroll, eight games under five hundred. They have not won a series the entire month, and it's really interesting to watch the team, almost like in quicksand the more they try, the worse off it gets. And the way the manager Buck Showalter handles it. Now, he took a lot of grief for the game on Sunday against Philadelphia, where he lost the lead in the eighth inning without using his best pitchers. He had David robertson his closer, who had thrown just thirteen pitches the day before, had pitched only twice in the previous eleven days, and Buck was saving him for the ninth inning. Of course, there never was a ninth inning because Philadelphia rallied in the eighth against some of the lower pieces or lesser pieces, and Bucks bullpen. That's the way it's gone for the New York Mets, you know. And then you have a game, give the ball to Justin Verlander. The next game at home and you lose to Milwaukee two to one. Bullpen Drew Smith comes in gives up a home run after he was suspended, and by the way, Bucks bullpen was short game on Sunday because Drew Smith was serving his ten year suspension for using too much sticky stuff on his hand. You know, my question, Joe, for you is not so much about individual moves, but sometimes as a manager, did you take on some of the heat for your players? In other words, it's almost like a diversion when guys are struggling to try and hard the results are not good, that some of the stories coming out of the team would come out of the manager's office rather than falling on the players. Any any any way, that that was across your raider when you had teams that were scuffling.

First order of business, first job of the managers, protect your brood.

First order of business, first job of the managers, protect your brood.

That's what you do.

That's what you do.

Uh Yeah, you're gonna you're gonna extend in front of everybody. You're gonna explain things off to take the heat off of your players. You're always going to do that, and you're going to accept responsibility and.

Uh Yeah, you're gonna you're gonna extend in front of everybody. You're gonna explain things off to take the heat off of your players. You're always going to do that, and you're going to accept responsibility and.

You are going to take the heat that's what you're there for.

You are going to take the heat that's what you're there for.

But I always stopped. My first thing to do is to protect the brood. It's no different than your family, texture group A, B C D number one, number two, three, four five, that's what that's what the manager does. And I don't know that that's spoken about enough. And I just saw a little clip with Buck and that's exactly what he was doing. I know was that game in question right there, but the question posed to him, what he did well, like he always does, is he's protecting his group. And the thing I love about what Buck's doing right now, how consistent he's remained in his demeanor and his response. Buck is going to think it all the way through. He's not going to be over emotional, so don't expect him to be overemotional.

But I always stopped. My first thing to do is to protect the brood. It's no different than your family, texture group A, B C D number one, number two, three, four five, that's what that's what the manager does. And I don't know that that's spoken about enough. And I just saw a little clip with Buck and that's exactly what he was doing. I know was that game in question right there, but the question posed to him, what he did well, like he always does, is he's protecting his group. And the thing I love about what Buck's doing right now, how consistent he's remained in his demeanor and his response. Buck is going to think it all the way through. He's not going to be over emotional, so don't expect him to be overemotional.

That's not who he is.

That's not who he is.

He's very consistent in his approaching. To me, that equals discipline. And I love that the Mets aren't playing well because they lost. They lose their closer during the WBC A number one, and they're not playing well because there's got any poor performance and that's not his fault.

He's very consistent in his approaching. To me, that equals discipline. And I love that the Mets aren't playing well because they lost. They lose their closer during the WBC A number one, and they're not playing well because there's got any poor performance and that's not his fault.

Yeah, I will say this, Joe. I think they're at the point of their season, especially now with this balance schedule where you don't play many games against the teams in your division like Philadelphia, you have fewer head to heads, Right, you're this far underwater. Yeah, every game to me becomes more and more urgent at this time of year, no denying. I mean there's some points you got to start trying to win the game outside of what your normal path to victory is, because I don't want to say the Mets are running out of time, but maybe running out of opportunities.

Yeah, I will say this, Joe. I think they're at the point of their season, especially now with this balance schedule where you don't play many games against the teams in your division like Philadelphia, you have fewer head to heads, Right, you're this far underwater. Yeah, every game to me becomes more and more urgent at this time of year, no denying. I mean there's some points you got to start trying to win the game outside of what your normal path to victory is, because I don't want to say the Mets are running out of time, but maybe running out of opportunities.

Well, first of all, regarding that situation without Robertson, who is the batting order for the Phillies in the eighth?

Well, first of all, regarding that situation without Robertson, who is the batting order for the Phillies in the eighth?

I would just be curious.

I would just be curious.

Did he have him lined up for the ninth because there was a stronger batting order coming up in the night than he thought this guy could handle the eighth. That's one thing. Number two, the unavailability of pitchers always, to me is intriguing based on you know, the the edicts from upstairs who's available and who's not available that night. And he's not going to again, he's going to protect the front office or the analytical department too, So I don't know. I mean he may have made choices there based on what he was told he was able to use and not able to use that day. See, these are the things that you know, fans and writers don't know because we're not going to spill the beans on that.

Did he have him lined up for the ninth because there was a stronger batting order coming up in the night than he thought this guy could handle the eighth. That's one thing. Number two, the unavailability of pitchers always, to me is intriguing based on you know, the the edicts from upstairs who's available and who's not available that night. And he's not going to again, he's going to protect the front office or the analytical department too, So I don't know. I mean he may have made choices there based on what he was told he was able to use and not able to use that day. See, these are the things that you know, fans and writers don't know because we're not going to spill the beans on that.

You're not going to do that.

You're not going to do that.

You're just going to do the organization or whatever, and you're going to not use robertson maybe like this situation in eighth because two three fourths coming up in the ninth potentially something like that.

You're just going to do the organization or whatever, and you're going to not use robertson maybe like this situation in eighth because two three fourths coming up in the ninth potentially something like that.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Yeah, he did go with the eighth inning. You did have Schwarber, Turner, Harper coming up, so they big bets were coming up to the eighth. You make a good point, though, Joe, and I saw this in the Verlander loss. Well, he didn't get the loss. Drew Smith got the loss. You know, Verlander came out after five innings with one hundred pitches, right, and I know there's probably some fans thinking, well, leave him in. He's gone up to one hundred and seventeen this year. Why is he coming out after five? But if you watch that game, and this is interesting with the pitch timer, Joe, the Mets were going down one, two, three against Colin Ray and Verlander had very little time before he was literally back on the mound. Sure, so you had that, you had the Brewers extending at bets, you had Verlander covering first base a couple of times, and then you had Verlander is lined up to make his next start on the fifth day. Now, normal rest in today's game is six so that's almost short. Rest is only four days of rest, So Buck has to think about the next time Verlander is going to get the ball. So those are so many things that came into play rather than just looking at this game at a vacuum and saying, well, he went one to seventeen earlier, he can go one to seventeen. Leave him in Well, if you watch the game, the pitch timer, the length of the abats, the next time he's going out onto the mound. Man, there were a lot of factors that factored in there, including Verlander's age. And he said it himself that the time in between and some of these fast innings now under the pitch timer is something that all pitchers, but especially older ones, are getting used to.

Yeah, he did go with the eighth inning. You did have Schwarber, Turner, Harper coming up, so they big bets were coming up to the eighth. You make a good point, though, Joe, and I saw this in the Verlander loss. Well, he didn't get the loss. Drew Smith got the loss. You know, Verlander came out after five innings with one hundred pitches, right, and I know there's probably some fans thinking, well, leave him in. He's gone up to one hundred and seventeen this year. Why is he coming out after five? But if you watch that game, and this is interesting with the pitch timer, Joe, the Mets were going down one, two, three against Colin Ray and Verlander had very little time before he was literally back on the mound. Sure, so you had that, you had the Brewers extending at bets, you had Verlander covering first base a couple of times, and then you had Verlander is lined up to make his next start on the fifth day. Now, normal rest in today's game is six so that's almost short. Rest is only four days of rest, So Buck has to think about the next time Verlander is going to get the ball. So those are so many things that came into play rather than just looking at this game at a vacuum and saying, well, he went one to seventeen earlier, he can go one to seventeen. Leave him in Well, if you watch the game, the pitch timer, the length of the abats, the next time he's going out onto the mound. Man, there were a lot of factors that factored in there, including Verlander's age. And he said it himself that the time in between and some of these fast innings now under the pitch timer is something that all pitchers, but especially older ones, are getting used to.

No, the interconnectivity of the game, that's what you're just describing. You're absolutely right, and that if you as a manager after a game, sit and give all those different thoughts or reasons. It sounds like you're making excuses where you've been asked a question and then you want to really like if you want to get really involved, he I'm going to tell you everything I was thinking about in that moment, but it never comes across. Well, so you do the cliff notes. The game is interconnected nightly, you're making decisions tonight based on tomorrow because you have to.

No, the interconnectivity of the game, that's what you're just describing. You're absolutely right, and that if you as a manager after a game, sit and give all those different thoughts or reasons. It sounds like you're making excuses where you've been asked a question and then you want to really like if you want to get really involved, he I'm going to tell you everything I was thinking about in that moment, but it never comes across. Well, so you do the cliff notes. The game is interconnected nightly, you're making decisions tonight based on tomorrow because you have to.

You have to space this.

You have to space this.

Out, and that's why you have to have a deep roster that other people that are able to perform, pick other people up when people need rest, and that's how you start winning games or create longer winning streaks when you have that kind of interconnected depth, and if you don't have it, it's almost impossible to do so again as.

Out, and that's why you have to have a deep roster that other people that are able to perform, pick other people up when people need rest, and that's how you start winning games or create longer winning streaks when you have that kind of interconnected depth, and if you don't have it, it's almost impossible to do so again as.

A manager, I'm not going to give you all that only because it sounds like I'm making excuses.

A manager, I'm not going to give you all that only because it sounds like I'm making excuses.

But those are all the different thoughts that go into making decisions.

But those are all the different thoughts that go into making decisions.

Well, said Joe, You've been there before and you've handled it well, so those words certainly resonate. Hey, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back. I said I needed some help. Some recommendations music recommendations from Joe. We'll get into that next Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast. By the way, Joe, we're talking about players scuffling, and we've talked about this before, but incredibly is still happening. Mike Trout just cannot get going. His lugging percentages down to four eighty. That's good for a lot of players, but it's a career low for him. After hitting two hundred in May against fastballs, He's hitting two hundred again against fastballs in June and seeing more fastballs than anybody but Miles Straw. I don't know whether you've got a chance to watch much of Mike lately, but man, Joe, I thought by now he figured something out. And I keep waiting for that surge. You know it's coming, but it hasn't happened yet. It's been very strange to see. I'm sure it is for you.

Well, said Joe, You've been there before and you've handled it well, so those words certainly resonate. Hey, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back. I said I needed some help. Some recommendations music recommendations from Joe. We'll get into that next Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast. By the way, Joe, we're talking about players scuffling, and we've talked about this before, but incredibly is still happening. Mike Trout just cannot get going. His lugging percentages down to four eighty. That's good for a lot of players, but it's a career low for him. After hitting two hundred in May against fastballs, He's hitting two hundred again against fastballs in June and seeing more fastballs than anybody but Miles Straw. I don't know whether you've got a chance to watch much of Mike lately, but man, Joe, I thought by now he figured something out. And I keep waiting for that surge. You know it's coming, but it hasn't happened yet. It's been very strange to see. I'm sure it is for you.

Yeah, I'm watching it.

Yeah, I'm watching it.

And I saw him hit a home right against Cranky ninety one down and in right into the slot of his swing.

And I saw him hit a home right against Cranky ninety one down and in right into the slot of his swing.

Yeah, he's he is.

Yeah, he's he is.

He's kind of tunneled or channeled into where the swing path is right now.

He's kind of tunneled or channeled into where the swing path is right now.

I'm watching.

I'm watching.

I don't watch I have seen them a lot, but I've seen them a bit, and he will make the adjustment.

I don't watch I have seen them a lot, but I've seen them a bit, and he will make the adjustment.

I agree with that.

I agree with that.

But that's and you've talked about Stanton, and you've talked about.

But that's and you've talked about Stanton, and you've talked about.

There's other guys.

There's other guys.

I mean, I know that the last year or two there whatever, or the last several years when we're beating somebody with the fastball, and I mean, just it could be like but it's perceived to be kind of pedestrian fastball maybe ninety three and ninety four, But nevertheless, it's the straight ball, backspin and force force seemers. It gets on here. If there's that little bit of right to it at all, it plays up. It plays up even to a bigger number than that. Why do something differently, I think because this is another analytical component. When you have this kind of data to support results, you'll stay with it. So I mean, if you're a pitching you're gonna say I'm not gonna throw a three fastballs in a row.

I mean, I know that the last year or two there whatever, or the last several years when we're beating somebody with the fastball, and I mean, just it could be like but it's perceived to be kind of pedestrian fastball maybe ninety three and ninety four, But nevertheless, it's the straight ball, backspin and force force seemers. It gets on here. If there's that little bit of right to it at all, it plays up. It plays up even to a bigger number than that. Why do something differently, I think because this is another analytical component. When you have this kind of data to support results, you'll stay with it. So I mean, if you're a pitching you're gonna say I'm not gonna throw a three fastballs in a row.

There's no way to do that.

There's no way to do that.

But no, before the game, somebody sits you down and says, listen, do this. If you're going to go break the ball, make sure it's a strike ball, make sure it's a chase pitch, but do not go ball, strike, break the ball as an example, and we're going to keep doing this until he shows otherwise, so that that is data driven. Back in the day, you had an advanced scout. He'd sit in the stands right and he would watch just that team. He would scout that team that you're going to play next and send reports based on that. So the pitchers that the age would be playing would be reported upon, and how we pitched, and the pitchers then up their pitchers of course, with our hitters limited limited numbers, so you're not going to can ever convince yourself to do that. Mattie Keo wanted us to throw front door breaking balls to Edgar Martinez in the nineties, which was not a pitch. Back then, it was like, what are you talking about. That's a hanging slider.

But no, before the game, somebody sits you down and says, listen, do this. If you're going to go break the ball, make sure it's a strike ball, make sure it's a chase pitch, but do not go ball, strike, break the ball as an example, and we're going to keep doing this until he shows otherwise, so that that is data driven. Back in the day, you had an advanced scout. He'd sit in the stands right and he would watch just that team. He would scout that team that you're going to play next and send reports based on that. So the pitchers that the age would be playing would be reported upon, and how we pitched, and the pitchers then up their pitchers of course, with our hitters limited limited numbers, so you're not going to can ever convince yourself to do that. Mattie Keo wanted us to throw front door breaking balls to Edgar Martinez in the nineties, which was not a pitch. Back then, it was like, what are you talking about. That's a hanging slider.

So all this.

So all this.

Stuff, with the data and the and the and the really stockpile of information, it permits or provides greater confidence in regard to the game planning that you're putting out there. So right now, everybody that they're playing the Angels, they're just saying the same thing until he shows us this, we're doing this, and you don't have to change up or try different things you're fifteen years ago that wouldn't have happened.

Stuff, with the data and the and the and the really stockpile of information, it permits or provides greater confidence in regard to the game planning that you're putting out there. So right now, everybody that they're playing the Angels, they're just saying the same thing until he shows us this, we're doing this, and you don't have to change up or try different things you're fifteen years ago that wouldn't have happened.

It's happening now. Yeah.