There are currently about two million people incarcerated in the US, and at any given time, many of them are defendants who are being held in jail while they await their trial because they can't afford to pay bail. If you're charged with a crime, a judge will often set bail. It's an amount you have to pay to be released until you're day in court. It's intended as an insurance policy of sorts to make sure you show up, but often judges set bail so high that defendants aren't able to pay. The result they have to sit behind bars until trial, a process that can take months or even years. Bloomberg City Lab reporters Sarah Holder and Fuller a Kinneby report that's one reason the US is the world's leading jailer per capita.

There are currently about two million people incarcerated in the US, and at any given time, many of them are defendants who are being held in jail while they await their trial because they can't afford to pay bail. If you're charged with a crime, a judge will often set bail. It's an amount you have to pay to be released until you're day in court. It's intended as an insurance policy of sorts to make sure you show up, but often judges set bail so high that defendants aren't able to pay. The result they have to sit behind bars until trial, a process that can take months or even years. Bloomberg City Lab reporters Sarah Holder and Fuller a Kinneby report that's one reason the US is the world's leading jailer per capita.

The US is actually an outlier in its reliance on that system. In other places, bill bonds are illegal or an issue of last resort. In the even though we have this credo and this belief that you're innocent until proven guilty, you can still be sent to jail under that presumption of innocence because you can't pay a certain amount of bail.

The US is actually an outlier in its reliance on that system. In other places, bill bonds are illegal or an issue of last resort. In the even though we have this credo and this belief that you're innocent until proven guilty, you can still be sent to jail under that presumption of innocence because you can't pay a certain amount of bail.

This is a very American issue. The issue of mass incarceration. Over the past thirty or forty years, the number of people in jail pre trial has like quadrupled.

This is a very American issue. The issue of mass incarceration. Over the past thirty or forty years, the number of people in jail pre trial has like quadrupled.

This has led to what critics call a two tiered system of justice.

This has led to what critics call a two tiered system of justice.

People who are able to pay that bail are able to go home to their families, get back into the community and await that court hearing, and people without the means cannot.

People who are able to pay that bail are able to go home to their families, get back into the community and await that court hearing, and people without the means cannot.

Sarah and Fola have been looking into what happens to defendants in New York City, where thousands of people charged with crimes each year face the choice of paying up or going to jail, and in New York, jail often means Riker's Island. It's the city's largest detention facility, and it's made news in recent years for violent and dangerous conditions. Twenty seven people have died there since the beginning of twenty twenty two.

Sarah and Fola have been looking into what happens to defendants in New York City, where thousands of people charged with crimes each year face the choice of paying up or going to jail, and in New York, jail often means Riker's Island. It's the city's largest detention facility, and it's made news in recent years for violent and dangerous conditions. Twenty seven people have died there since the beginning of twenty twenty two.

Another detainee died today at Rikers Island. The city's Correction Department says thirty three year old Donnie Ubieira was found unresponsive in his cell.

Another detainee died today at Rikers Island. The city's Correction Department says thirty three year old Donnie Ubieira was found unresponsive in his cell.

But here's why we're talking about this now. The city is looking to change the system to make it more fair and to reduce crowding in jails.

But here's why we're talking about this now. The city is looking to change the system to make it more fair and to reduce crowding in jails.

New York is trying to redesign its pre trial release program to get more people out of places like Riker's Island. New York has introduced an alternate approach called supervisor release, where a judge can say, go home, come back for your court date, but in the meantime, you're going to have regular meetings with social workers and case managers that can help you stay out of jail again and get your life back on track.

New York is trying to redesign its pre trial release program to get more people out of places like Riker's Island. New York has introduced an alternate approach called supervisor release, where a judge can say, go home, come back for your court date, but in the meantime, you're going to have regular meetings with social workers and case managers that can help you stay out of jail again and get your life back on track.

I'm wes Kasova today on the Big Take New York tests a real life life Get out of Jail card. New York City's supervised Release program is run by four nonprofits, each covering part of the city. In Queens, that organization is the Criminal Justice Agency, or CJA. It's the job of the caseworkers at CJA to meet with defendants and try to help them keep their lives on track while they await their court date. Fulla and Sarah went to CJA's office in the Q Gardens neighborhood of Queen's to see how the program works.

I'm wes Kasova today on the Big Take New York tests a real life life Get out of Jail card. New York City's supervised Release program is run by four nonprofits, each covering part of the city. In Queens, that organization is the Criminal Justice Agency, or CJA. It's the job of the caseworkers at CJA to meet with defendants and try to help them keep their lives on track while they await their court date. Fulla and Sarah went to CJA's office in the Q Gardens neighborhood of Queen's to see how the program works.

When we visited the Q Garden's office, it's across the street from the Queen's County Criminal Court and around ten or eleven am. That's when clients starts rolling and the office starts buzzing a bit. And on the day we were there, we saw one case for having to deal with unscheduled visits and having to do like three different sessions when she only had one schedule. And that's because of the office's proximity to the courthouse. It's easy for clients to walk across the street and pop in and do their check in when they finish hearing.

When we visited the Q Garden's office, it's across the street from the Queen's County Criminal Court and around ten or eleven am. That's when clients starts rolling and the office starts buzzing a bit. And on the day we were there, we saw one case for having to deal with unscheduled visits and having to do like three different sessions when she only had one schedule. And that's because of the office's proximity to the courthouse. It's easy for clients to walk across the street and pop in and do their check in when they finish hearing.

And Sarah, you met with some of the people who work at the program.

And Sarah, you met with some of the people who work at the program.

We spoke to Joanna Jizeus, who runs CJA's supervis Release program.

We spoke to Joanna Jizeus, who runs CJA's supervis Release program.

I'm the executive director of Supervise Release and I have been working with CJA for twenty six years. I'd say, well, our general overall mission is to you know, it's to help the courts reduce unnecessary pre trialed attention, right, and the goal of this program was to help people return to court. I think here specifically we do that Queen's Supervise Release by helping people stay in the communities that they live in, so helping them maintain their jobs and their housing situations, because when they are detained, they lose the ability to be employed or to stay in their home and those things can go away.

I'm the executive director of Supervise Release and I have been working with CJA for twenty six years. I'd say, well, our general overall mission is to you know, it's to help the courts reduce unnecessary pre trialed attention, right, and the goal of this program was to help people return to court. I think here specifically we do that Queen's Supervise Release by helping people stay in the communities that they live in, so helping them maintain their jobs and their housing situations, because when they are detained, they lose the ability to be employed or to stay in their home and those things can go away.

We also spoke to Sasha Tyler Best.

We also spoke to Sasha Tyler Best.

I'm a clinical supervisor and I've been working with CJ for almost four years. I think that we're like It kind of reminds me of having a guidance counselor like someone who's there to make sure that you meet deadlines and to support you and help you sign up for the things you want to sign up for.

I'm a clinical supervisor and I've been working with CJ for almost four years. I think that we're like It kind of reminds me of having a guidance counselor like someone who's there to make sure that you meet deadlines and to support you and help you sign up for the things you want to sign up for.

They meet with folks in these interview rooms to talk about how things are going. They talk about mental health struggles, they talk about status of finding new housing. They lend people interview clothes if they're going out for a job interview. They're giving out snack bags with fruit cups and soup. People can get metro cards so they can actually make it to their court hearings and to their check ins. They provide a whole lot more services than the supervision.

They meet with folks in these interview rooms to talk about how things are going. They talk about mental health struggles, they talk about status of finding new housing. They lend people interview clothes if they're going out for a job interview. They're giving out snack bags with fruit cups and soup. People can get metro cards so they can actually make it to their court hearings and to their check ins. They provide a whole lot more services than the supervision.

One client we spoke to said his session felt like therapy and it helped him navigate a system that can be brutal and hard time, and so the program helped connect him with the job. Yeah, caseworkers do a lot more than just insure someone returned to court. Even though that's their bandate.

One client we spoke to said his session felt like therapy and it helped him navigate a system that can be brutal and hard time, and so the program helped connect him with the job. Yeah, caseworkers do a lot more than just insure someone returned to court. Even though that's their bandate.

CJA started the city's first supervised release program in two thousand and nine. Today, it serves many more people than it did back then. Partly that's because at first the program was only for people accused of nonviolent offenses, but three years ago, those charged with more serious crimes also became eligible. Here's joe Aanne DeJesus again. She's CJA's executive director.

CJA started the city's first supervised release program in two thousand and nine. Today, it serves many more people than it did back then. Partly that's because at first the program was only for people accused of nonviolent offenses, but three years ago, those charged with more serious crimes also became eligible. Here's joe Aanne DeJesus again. She's CJA's executive director.

So initially in two thousand and nine, we were set up as a non violent felony program, so no violent offenses were allowed in the program at all. Since January first, twenty twenty, all charges are eligible for the program, so we get what we never used to see before, things like rape charges, murder charges, serious robbery charges, robbery in the first degree second degree, which are violent felony offenses. We get all of those charges.

So initially in two thousand and nine, we were set up as a non violent felony program, so no violent offenses were allowed in the program at all. Since January first, twenty twenty, all charges are eligible for the program, so we get what we never used to see before, things like rape charges, murder charges, serious robbery charges, robbery in the first degree second degree, which are violent felony offenses. We get all of those charges.

Right about now, you might be thinking releasing people charged with nonviolent offenses is one thing, but is it so bad for those accused of committing violent crimes to stay in custody. The answer is complicated. Not all defendants are eligible for the pre trial release program. Judges can deny bail to someone they consider to be a threat to the community. And they would remain in custody until trial. Defendants who are admitted to the program are people a judge has decided are a low risk to others, and Fuller raises another argument that advocates make.

Right about now, you might be thinking releasing people charged with nonviolent offenses is one thing, but is it so bad for those accused of committing violent crimes to stay in custody. The answer is complicated. Not all defendants are eligible for the pre trial release program. Judges can deny bail to someone they consider to be a threat to the community. And they would remain in custody until trial. Defendants who are admitted to the program are people a judge has decided are a low risk to others, and Fuller raises another argument that advocates make.

It's very easy to point a program like this and saying, well, they're letting criminals out of jail. That's not true. These people have not been convicted. They still have a right to their day in court, and this program is meant to allow them to wait that period out in the community home while they go through the system.

It's very easy to point a program like this and saying, well, they're letting criminals out of jail. That's not true. These people have not been convicted. They still have a right to their day in court, and this program is meant to allow them to wait that period out in the community home while they go through the system.

Now, surprisingly, though there's been public and political backlash to supervised release.

Now, surprisingly, though there's been public and political backlash to supervised release.

Bail reform has become a boogeyman, just like defund the police had been a boogeyman. In twenty twenty after the killing of George Floyd, you know, a lot of jurisdictions were taking a closer look at their police budgets. Now the conversation has expanded a bit to look at the entire criminal justice system and questioning the role of bail and jail in our society. New York State is a good example of a place that's really tackling that question head on. Kathy Hokl, a Democrat, is our governor. She's been at the forefront of having to make our decisions about this issue. Her challenger, Lee Zelden, a Republican, ran to the right of her on the last election cycle and was running ads that painted bail reform among other police reforms, as this horrible change that would have violent criminals running free in the streets for good reasons.

Bail reform has become a boogeyman, just like defund the police had been a boogeyman. In twenty twenty after the killing of George Floyd, you know, a lot of jurisdictions were taking a closer look at their police budgets. Now the conversation has expanded a bit to look at the entire criminal justice system and questioning the role of bail and jail in our society. New York State is a good example of a place that's really tackling that question head on. Kathy Hokl, a Democrat, is our governor. She's been at the forefront of having to make our decisions about this issue. Her challenger, Lee Zelden, a Republican, ran to the right of her on the last election cycle and was running ads that painted bail reform among other police reforms, as this horrible change that would have violent criminals running free in the streets for good reasons.

Time on Kathy Hoko's watch is rising and liberal policies like cashless, veiled and not enforcing laws.

Time on Kathy Hoko's watch is rising and liberal policies like cashless, veiled and not enforcing laws.

Are involded in criminals. The solution a new governor leaves Elvin's an army bevern and a former prosecutor, and Kathy Hochel rolled back bail reforms and made it easier for judges to set bail for certain crimes because of that political pressure.

Are involded in criminals. The solution a new governor leaves Elvin's an army bevern and a former prosecutor, and Kathy Hochel rolled back bail reforms and made it easier for judges to set bail for certain crimes because of that political pressure.

And these are potent political messages. When you run ads that say that you know they're going to be violent criminals in the streets, people really respond to that. You see this pressure on organizations and on systems like the Supervisor Release program and on organizations like CJA because they face this political pressure on one side, and then they have also faced the pressure of having to do the actual work every day.

And these are potent political messages. When you run ads that say that you know they're going to be violent criminals in the streets, people really respond to that. You see this pressure on organizations and on systems like the Supervisor Release program and on organizations like CJA because they face this political pressure on one side, and then they have also faced the pressure of having to do the actual work every day.

When we come back a very busy day in the life of a Criminal Justice Agency caseworker.

When we come back a very busy day in the life of a Criminal Justice Agency caseworker.

If you're supposed to meet with your clients, you know you have eighty clients when you're supposed to meet with them, even you know, fifteen to twenty minutes a day, how many can you fit in?

If you're supposed to meet with your clients, you know you have eighty clients when you're supposed to meet with them, even you know, fifteen to twenty minutes a day, how many can you fit in?

A New York's Criminal Justice Agency doesn't only see people once they've been released awaiting trial. The city also tasks CJA with assessing defendants before they're arraigned to give the court a better sense of whether a person is a good bet for pre trial release. They look at things like their housing situation, employment history, and any previous warrants. These assessments are important because judges with crowded dockets only have a short time to make a decision about each case.

A New York's Criminal Justice Agency doesn't only see people once they've been released awaiting trial. The city also tasks CJA with assessing defendants before they're arraigned to give the court a better sense of whether a person is a good bet for pre trial release. They look at things like their housing situation, employment history, and any previous warrants. These assessments are important because judges with crowded dockets only have a short time to make a decision about each case.

Before someone gets in front of a judge, they've been interviewed by CJA, and CJA does an assessment to gauge the likelihood of this person returning to court. Sarah and I actually sat in on arrangments for hours at the Queen's gott In Criminal Court. We saw this process happen over and over and over again. These hearings take I feel like some people wouldn't believe, but they take five minutes. It doesn't matter what the charges are. Five minutes they're cycling through folks.

Before someone gets in front of a judge, they've been interviewed by CJA, and CJA does an assessment to gauge the likelihood of this person returning to court. Sarah and I actually sat in on arrangments for hours at the Queen's gott In Criminal Court. We saw this process happen over and over and over again. These hearings take I feel like some people wouldn't believe, but they take five minutes. It doesn't matter what the charges are. Five minutes they're cycling through folks.

It's then up to the judge to decide what life will look like for the accused before their next court date. If the judge opts to enroll the defendant in a supervised release program, they need to determine just how much supervision that person should get. That's done with a system of tiers and levels. The higher the level, the more supervision. Joanna Jesus from CJA explains it like this.

It's then up to the judge to decide what life will look like for the accused before their next court date. If the judge opts to enroll the defendant in a supervised release program, they need to determine just how much supervision that person should get. That's done with a system of tiers and levels. The higher the level, the more supervision. Joanna Jesus from CJA explains it like this.

What it is is it's a combination of factors. It's the charge at arrangement, whether or not it's bail eligible or not, combined with CJ's release assessment score. That is how you land on a tier and a level. However, big caveat is the judges get to override that level whenever they see a person in front of them in that arrangement process. If they feel that there's a need for additional support, the judges can mandate and we then have to follow whatever the judicial mandate is.

What it is is it's a combination of factors. It's the charge at arrangement, whether or not it's bail eligible or not, combined with CJ's release assessment score. That is how you land on a tier and a level. However, big caveat is the judges get to override that level whenever they see a person in front of them in that arrangement process. If they feel that there's a need for additional support, the judges can mandate and we then have to follow whatever the judicial mandate is.

People at the lowest level of supervision might only have to check in with a caseworker once a month. Those at the highest level may have to see them every week, which can keep caseworkers very busy.

People at the lowest level of supervision might only have to check in with a caseworker once a month. Those at the highest level may have to see them every week, which can keep caseworkers very busy.

When caseloads are this high. We have case managers at the lower level that have eighty clients. Sometimes we're kicking people out of the office at night. Sometimes people are frustrated sometimes because it's a lot. And if you think about having eighty clients in a seven hour work day times five days a week, that's thirty five hours a week. And if you're supposed to meet with your clients, you know, you have eighty clients, and you're supposed to meet with them even you know, fifteen to twenty minutes a day, how many can you fit in a day?

When caseloads are this high. We have case managers at the lower level that have eighty clients. Sometimes we're kicking people out of the office at night. Sometimes people are frustrated sometimes because it's a lot. And if you think about having eighty clients in a seven hour work day times five days a week, that's thirty five hours a week. And if you're supposed to meet with your clients, you know, you have eighty clients, and you're supposed to meet with them even you know, fifteen to twenty minutes a day, how many can you fit in a day?

Often these check ins are quick in routine, but sometimes the caseworkers have to help people sort out bigger problems in their lives. Even with rising caseloads, the CJA caseworkers take on as many people as the courts send their way. That's because they know what the alternative would look like for many of these defendants. Without supervised release, they would be in jail and likely Rikers Island. Here's Bloomberg Sarah Holder again.

Often these check ins are quick in routine, but sometimes the caseworkers have to help people sort out bigger problems in their lives. Even with rising caseloads, the CJA caseworkers take on as many people as the courts send their way. That's because they know what the alternative would look like for many of these defendants. Without supervised release, they would be in jail and likely Rikers Island. Here's Bloomberg Sarah Holder again.

It's rough. The caseworkers really care about the work that they're doing, and they know that every client they see is a client that's not in Rikers, and so they believe that having more clients is a worthy cause. But it's hard to manage all the people and to really give them the time that they need to set them up for success.

It's rough. The caseworkers really care about the work that they're doing, and they know that every client they see is a client that's not in Rikers, and so they believe that having more clients is a worthy cause. But it's hard to manage all the people and to really give them the time that they need to set them up for success.

I just know that we can't close our doors right, not like we say, oh, we're full, Like we can't close our doors. And the more the judges believe in what we can do and sort of like linking people up, the more they will release people to us.

I just know that we can't close our doors right, not like we say, oh, we're full, Like we can't close our doors. And the more the judges believe in what we can do and sort of like linking people up, the more they will release people to us.

When we come back. New York City puts more money into the pre trial release program now that CJA and the other nonprofits in the city have been doing this work for more than a decade. Here's the big question. Is this growing pre trial release program working out? Is it a success? And if so, how do they measure it.

When we come back. New York City puts more money into the pre trial release program now that CJA and the other nonprofits in the city have been doing this work for more than a decade. Here's the big question. Is this growing pre trial release program working out? Is it a success? And if so, how do they measure it.

Case workers at CJA have told us that they can really see the progress that specific clients are making. They can get a lot out of the program if they want to. Sasha talked us through an experience with a client.

Case workers at CJA have told us that they can really see the progress that specific clients are making. They can get a lot out of the program if they want to. Sasha talked us through an experience with a client.

One of my clients has been making a lot of progress. Actually, he's able to take the resources that we give him and sign up for one of the construction programs, which is great, and he came in and he was like, I don't have time because I'm going to my orientation. So that was a good moment, Whereas the time that I met him before that, he was kind of like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I need a new job, and he's like, I don't know how do I do this? And so it was just like empowering him to take these resources and I love that he's doing it because he's doing it on his own with information that we've given him.

One of my clients has been making a lot of progress. Actually, he's able to take the resources that we give him and sign up for one of the construction programs, which is great, and he came in and he was like, I don't have time because I'm going to my orientation. So that was a good moment, Whereas the time that I met him before that, he was kind of like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I need a new job, and he's like, I don't know how do I do this? And so it was just like empowering him to take these resources and I love that he's doing it because he's doing it on his own with information that we've given him.

Joanna Jesus from CJA says her idea of success has changed as the program itself has evolved.

Joanna Jesus from CJA says her idea of success has changed as the program itself has evolved.

Initially, we used to talk about sort of success, like how many people were having their cases disposed in a successful way, right, Like there was a plea down. So you came into the program with a felony and you pled down to a misdemeanor or a misdemeanor and you pled down to a violation. So I would consider that a success because you've been in the program, the courts aware that you're participating, and now your attorney is able to negotiate a better plea for you. I think also when clients are not rectivating, that's a measure of success. I think the number of times were able to get somebody into housing or a job when they came to us and they haven't had a job or even benefits. Right, we really try to be a source of information and knowledge and get them to where they need to be because they have to make their own choices. Ultimately, when we're not in the picture anymore, when they're not working with us, they have to be able to like figure out where to go for information or how to make that information work for them. But at some point people have to feel empowered to like navigate systems. I think that goes a long way. I think people are afraid to ask for help sometimes and a lot of them don't even have the core support. So being able to tell them it's okay to seek out the support you need is okay.

Initially, we used to talk about sort of success, like how many people were having their cases disposed in a successful way, right, Like there was a plea down. So you came into the program with a felony and you pled down to a misdemeanor or a misdemeanor and you pled down to a violation. So I would consider that a success because you've been in the program, the courts aware that you're participating, and now your attorney is able to negotiate a better plea for you. I think also when clients are not rectivating, that's a measure of success. I think the number of times were able to get somebody into housing or a job when they came to us and they haven't had a job or even benefits. Right, we really try to be a source of information and knowledge and get them to where they need to be because they have to make their own choices. Ultimately, when we're not in the picture anymore, when they're not working with us, they have to be able to like figure out where to go for information or how to make that information work for them. But at some point people have to feel empowered to like navigate systems. I think that goes a long way. I think people are afraid to ask for help sometimes and a lot of them don't even have the core support. So being able to tell them it's okay to seek out the support you need is okay.

And Bloomberg's fola a kin to be points to another way to assess how the program is doing. He told us about some data that may answer critics who say it's letting dangerous people go free.

And Bloomberg's fola a kin to be points to another way to assess how the program is doing. He told us about some data that may answer critics who say it's letting dangerous people go free.

So if you take a look at the number is most people are returning to court and of those folks, one percent are rearrested while they're out on supervisor release, and fewer than two percent of those folks are re arrested for violent failling defenses. At the same time, you can see that all the actors in the criminal justice system seem to trust the program. Prosecutors escort, we see in defense attorney's ascort, we seen judges suggested, and so clearly like there's a trust in the program, and you could see that play out in the court system.

So if you take a look at the number is most people are returning to court and of those folks, one percent are rearrested while they're out on supervisor release, and fewer than two percent of those folks are re arrested for violent failling defenses. At the same time, you can see that all the actors in the criminal justice system seem to trust the program. Prosecutors escort, we see in defense attorney's ascort, we seen judges suggested, and so clearly like there's a trust in the program, and you could see that play out in the court system.

With a growing number of people entering the program. The city is now going to invest more money in CJA so it's caseworkers aren't swamped all the time.

With a growing number of people entering the program. The city is now going to invest more money in CJA so it's caseworkers aren't swamped all the time.

The city is set aside an additional thirty six million dollars for the program so that the providers can hire more caseworkers and continue to take on clients.

The city is set aside an additional thirty six million dollars for the program so that the providers can hire more caseworkers and continue to take on clients.

CJ right now has seventy five caseworkers. They want to hire about thirty more people to deal with the surge. One of the times we went to their office, one of the case managers lit up thinking that we were one of the new people that they had hired. But no, no cigar. So more help is coming potentially, this influx of cash and the city is also trying to put aside some of that money towards more intensive work with clients that need more intensive help that have a history of recidivism, so adding an emphasis on in person meetings with caseworkers that are not as overwhelmed, specifically for the smaller group of folks that need the extra support.

CJ right now has seventy five caseworkers. They want to hire about thirty more people to deal with the surge. One of the times we went to their office, one of the case managers lit up thinking that we were one of the new people that they had hired. But no, no cigar. So more help is coming potentially, this influx of cash and the city is also trying to put aside some of that money towards more intensive work with clients that need more intensive help that have a history of recidivism, so adding an emphasis on in person meetings with caseworkers that are not as overwhelmed, specifically for the smaller group of folks that need the extra support.

And the program is getting attention even outside of New York. Other cities and states are now experimenting with bail reform programs of their own.

And the program is getting attention even outside of New York. Other cities and states are now experimenting with bail reform programs of their own.

Illinois is ending cash bail altogether, and Los Angeles County will make almost all misdemeanors and nonviolent felonies ineligible for bail on October first. So bail reform writ large. Though it is a fraught political issue, it's spreading from place to place, and on the ground where these reforms are taking place, people are looking at programs like New York Supervisor Release program as a model for how to actually implement those changes. Is in a successful way?

Illinois is ending cash bail altogether, and Los Angeles County will make almost all misdemeanors and nonviolent felonies ineligible for bail on October first. So bail reform writ large. Though it is a fraught political issue, it's spreading from place to place, and on the ground where these reforms are taking place, people are looking at programs like New York Supervisor Release program as a model for how to actually implement those changes. Is in a successful way?

Where do you think this goes from here? New York is investing in the program, other states are starting to adapt similar measures. Do you think that this will take off, that paying to get out of jail will become a thing of the past at some point.

Where do you think this goes from here? New York is investing in the program, other states are starting to adapt similar measures. Do you think that this will take off, that paying to get out of jail will become a thing of the past at some point.

We've seen the pendulum swing both ways. We talked about the defund the police movement. Some police departments did cut their budgets, others left them the same. It's sort of the same with bail reform, where some cities and states are moving away from bail, others are reversing some of those reforms. Even New York has done so. So it's a political push and pull. But you can tell that in New York, programs like this are not going away anytime soon. The city is committing millions more to it in the budget, and some of the data and the human stories from people from the program might shed some light on how it's working on the ground without getting into some of the political realities that might become challenges down the.

We've seen the pendulum swing both ways. We talked about the defund the police movement. Some police departments did cut their budgets, others left them the same. It's sort of the same with bail reform, where some cities and states are moving away from bail, others are reversing some of those reforms. Even New York has done so. So it's a political push and pull. But you can tell that in New York, programs like this are not going away anytime soon. The city is committing millions more to it in the budget, and some of the data and the human stories from people from the program might shed some light on how it's working on the ground without getting into some of the political realities that might become challenges down the.

Sarah Fola, thanks so much for taking that time to share your reporting.

Sarah Fola, thanks so much for taking that time to share your reporting.

Thank you, thanks for having us, Thanks.

Thank you, thanks for having us, Thanks.

For listening to us here at the Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. Email us questions or comments to Big Take at bloomberg dot Net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Bergolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Rebecca Shasson is our producer. Our associate producer is Sam Gebauer. The editor of this episode is Caitlin Kenny Raphael I'm Seely is our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin i'm wes Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.

For listening to us here at the Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. Email us questions or comments to Big Take at bloomberg dot Net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Bergolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Rebecca Shasson is our producer. Our associate producer is Sam Gebauer. The editor of this episode is Caitlin Kenny Raphael I'm Seely is our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin i'm wes Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.