It has never been easy to make a living working in retail, the long hours and low pay, surly managers, and inconsistent schedules, But these days, retail employees say it's gotten worse. Chronic short staffing often has them doing the jobs of several people for the same wages. Customers have become ruder, angrier, and more entitled. Shoplifters brazenly steal merchandise in plain sight.

It has never been easy to make a living working in retail, the long hours and low pay, surly managers, and inconsistent schedules, But these days, retail employees say it's gotten worse. Chronic short staffing often has them doing the jobs of several people for the same wages. Customers have become ruder, angrier, and more entitled. Shoplifters brazenly steal merchandise in plain sight.

It just bolsters the thesis of the story that there may never been a worse time to be retail employee.

It just bolsters the thesis of the story that there may never been a worse time to be retail employee.

That's Bloomberg's Devin Leonard. He and Rebecca Greenfield are here to talk about the latest reckoning in retail. Many workers have had enough. They're quitting for better opportunities in record numbers with fewer people willing to take their place.

That's Bloomberg's Devin Leonard. He and Rebecca Greenfield are here to talk about the latest reckoning in retail. Many workers have had enough. They're quitting for better opportunities in record numbers with fewer people willing to take their place.

So before the pandemic, the quitrit was around seventy five percent, and then since the pandemic it shot up to ninety and hasn't really budged since then, which I find to be really shocking because that is just such a high number.

So before the pandemic, the quitrit was around seventy five percent, and then since the pandemic it shot up to ninety and hasn't really budged since then, which I find to be really shocking because that is just such a high number.

And later in the show, reporter Olivia Rockman tells us how retailers are trying to keep customers coming back to brick and mortar stores instead of shopping more and more online.

And later in the show, reporter Olivia Rockman tells us how retailers are trying to keep customers coming back to brick and mortar stores instead of shopping more and more online.

The keys to a successful retail company right now is kind of this idea of being sticky in a consumer's life. So you can't just be in a store, you can't just be online. You have to be on TikTok, you got to be on Instagram, You've got to have a membership or a loyalty program. And so the more you can kind of be in any aspect of a consumer's life, as creepy as that might sound, the more likely they are at a shop with you.

The keys to a successful retail company right now is kind of this idea of being sticky in a consumer's life. So you can't just be in a store, you can't just be online. You have to be on TikTok, you got to be on Instagram, You've got to have a membership or a loyalty program. And so the more you can kind of be in any aspect of a consumer's life, as creepy as that might sound, the more likely they are at a shop with you.

I'm wes Kasova today on the Big take the view from the other side of the counter back to reading your story, it does not sound like a fun time to be someone working in retail.

I'm wes Kasova today on the Big take the view from the other side of the counter back to reading your story, it does not sound like a fun time to be someone working in retail.

Yeah, absolutely not. I mean, I think in general, retail isn't those necessarily most exciting job. I think it's always been known for low pay and monotonous tasks and scheduling problems. But I think with this story, we were looking at why has it gotten so much worse? And it seems like the job has just become much more complicated. There's a lot more customer service problems to deal with. You know, their customers are angry, they're cranky, they're ornery, they're annoyed, they're you know, politically angry. There's like different tasks you have to do now, and that all together makes a job a lot less fun.

Yeah, absolutely not. I mean, I think in general, retail isn't those necessarily most exciting job. I think it's always been known for low pay and monotonous tasks and scheduling problems. But I think with this story, we were looking at why has it gotten so much worse? And it seems like the job has just become much more complicated. There's a lot more customer service problems to deal with. You know, their customers are angry, they're cranky, they're ornery, they're annoyed, they're you know, politically angry. There's like different tasks you have to do now, and that all together makes a job a lot less fun.

Devin, you talk to a lot of people who work in different retail stores doing different kinds of jobs, and what did they tell you, like, describe the life of a retail worker right now.

Devin, you talk to a lot of people who work in different retail stores doing different kinds of jobs, and what did they tell you, like, describe the life of a retail worker right now.

I think what I found pretty amazing was that obviously things got worse in the pandemic. Customers who would didn't want to wear a mask, or people had to come into stores where I guess there's a limit on how many people who come in. You know, people are already tense and kind of snapping out on workers. Then that that sort of persisted, you know, post pandemic. There was a woman at H and M who talked about how customers post pandemic and started using the fitting rooms for bathrooms. They don't have a public restroom there in ar Tavia. Actually she's in Times Square, New York, So I guess you could argue, you know, maybe she'd get some quote unquote rougher customers.

I think what I found pretty amazing was that obviously things got worse in the pandemic. Customers who would didn't want to wear a mask, or people had to come into stores where I guess there's a limit on how many people who come in. You know, people are already tense and kind of snapping out on workers. Then that that sort of persisted, you know, post pandemic. There was a woman at H and M who talked about how customers post pandemic and started using the fitting rooms for bathrooms. They don't have a public restroom there in ar Tavia. Actually she's in Times Square, New York, So I guess you could argue, you know, maybe she'd get some quote unquote rougher customers.

We have a lot of people that come in that are like angry at the world innocence. So I would definitely say it's a little more hectic as far as like safety now than before.

We have a lot of people that come in that are like angry at the world innocence. So I would definitely say it's a little more hectic as far as like safety now than before.

I guess they're represented by a union there, and they had to go and you know, get the union to talk to H and M to get somebody else to clean the fitting room so they didn't have to do it. But again, my jaw dropped when I heard that.

I guess they're represented by a union there, and they had to go and you know, get the union to talk to H and M to get somebody else to clean the fitting room so they didn't have to do it. But again, my jaw dropped when I heard that.

And what did H and M say about this?

And what did H and M say about this?

You know, they declined to comment. I sent a bunch of emails, but they I want.

You know, they declined to comment. I sent a bunch of emails, but they I want.

To talk about it. That is a pretty extreme example.

To talk about it. That is a pretty extreme example.

I'm guessing that most retail workers don't have to deal with that level of awfulness. But Becka, what are some of the other kind of more mundane things that people who are working in stores just have to deal with that maybe they didn't have to deal with before.

I'm guessing that most retail workers don't have to deal with that level of awfulness. But Becka, what are some of the other kind of more mundane things that people who are working in stores just have to deal with that maybe they didn't have to deal with before.

One is that people are fighting themselves dealing with inflation. You know, customers are coming in and asking why are things so expensive? And you have this poor retail worker saying, I don't set the price, like this is how much it costs, Like I actually think it's really expensive, But people get angry over that. So that was kind of a surprising manifestation of what's going on in our economy. Another thing is with retail crime on the rise, everything being locked up now.

One is that people are fighting themselves dealing with inflation. You know, customers are coming in and asking why are things so expensive? And you have this poor retail worker saying, I don't set the price, like this is how much it costs, Like I actually think it's really expensive, But people get angry over that. So that was kind of a surprising manifestation of what's going on in our economy. Another thing is with retail crime on the rise, everything being locked up now.

Super markets are embracing the anti shoplifting campaign. At Morton Williams in New York City, this sign says it all, please contact a manager or an employee if you wish to purchase this item. Where are those things kept behind the register?

Super markets are embracing the anti shoplifting campaign. At Morton Williams in New York City, this sign says it all, please contact a manager or an employee if you wish to purchase this item. Where are those things kept behind the register?

It's just like annoying, but also maybe necessary you have to deal with crime. Another thing that we heard about that I thought was really interesting is that there's been a rise in de escalation training. More people are getting trained and how to handle these situations, and then some of them are confused about how they're supposed to step in. Am I supposed to step in? Is my manager's supposed to step in? One of the people that Devin talked to they got robbed and just had to stand there, and you know, that's a pretty traumatic experience.

It's just like annoying, but also maybe necessary you have to deal with crime. Another thing that we heard about that I thought was really interesting is that there's been a rise in de escalation training. More people are getting trained and how to handle these situations, and then some of them are confused about how they're supposed to step in. Am I supposed to step in? Is my manager's supposed to step in? One of the people that Devin talked to they got robbed and just had to stand there, and you know, that's a pretty traumatic experience.

This guy described how he worked at the Walgreens in Brooklyn and he's having to do multiple tasks, stock the shelves, work as a janitor, take people's passport pictures, and then one day a customer comes in and asks for all the electronics behind the counter. He has his hand in his pocket like he has a weapon. And the poor kid, because he's a kid, he's a teenager at the time, you know, he puts all this stuff up in the counter and the guy just scrabs it and walks out. And the kid was like, did I just get robbed? But clearly he was just like I was just glad it was over. I'm making minimum wage. How am I supposed to deal with this? Is it even worth it?

This guy described how he worked at the Walgreens in Brooklyn and he's having to do multiple tasks, stock the shelves, work as a janitor, take people's passport pictures, and then one day a customer comes in and asks for all the electronics behind the counter. He has his hand in his pocket like he has a weapon. And the poor kid, because he's a kid, he's a teenager at the time, you know, he puts all this stuff up in the counter and the guy just scrabs it and walks out. And the kid was like, did I just get robbed? But clearly he was just like I was just glad it was over. I'm making minimum wage. How am I supposed to deal with this? Is it even worth it?

When you talk to Walgreens about that, what did they say.

When you talk to Walgreens about that, what did they say.

That we look out you know, for our employees and also we look out for them mental health. Because Henry, the former Walgreens employee, he just said all of the things he had to do and often work on the floor when you know they were kind of understaffed, you know, that just stressed him out so much that he had to take a year off from working to just sort of like recover from the whole experience.

That we look out you know, for our employees and also we look out for them mental health. Because Henry, the former Walgreens employee, he just said all of the things he had to do and often work on the floor when you know they were kind of understaffed, you know, that just stressed him out so much that he had to take a year off from working to just sort of like recover from the whole experience.

Beca you mentioned earlier pay, and that's always been a problem that seems to have gotten worse too, is that these jobs really do not pay very well a lot of the time.

Beca you mentioned earlier pay, and that's always been a problem that seems to have gotten worse too, is that these jobs really do not pay very well a lot of the time.

No, they really don't. It is interesting retail wages are up and up a little bit more than the median wage in the US, which has also been rising, but they're still very low and it's much lower than most people make. And on top of that, inflation is just really eating into your paycheck. So even if you get a big raise from twelve to fifteen dollars an hour, I mean, you're still, you know, dealing with all the same things that the customers are dealing with. Like, you know, a couple of coffee costs five dollars, so it's not much of a salve.

No, they really don't. It is interesting retail wages are up and up a little bit more than the median wage in the US, which has also been rising, but they're still very low and it's much lower than most people make. And on top of that, inflation is just really eating into your paycheck. So even if you get a big raise from twelve to fifteen dollars an hour, I mean, you're still, you know, dealing with all the same things that the customers are dealing with. Like, you know, a couple of coffee costs five dollars, so it's not much of a salve.

Devin.

Devin.

And another thing you write about is that workers struggle to get the hours they need in order to make a living working.

And another thing you write about is that workers struggle to get the hours they need in order to make a living working.

Most retail workers, frontline retail workers, that is, are part time employees, So trying to get a regular schedule, trying to get you know, kind of a predictable schedule, that's really tough. And there's a woman I spoke to us said she just got a job at Staples and it's the first time she's been offered healthcare. She said, you know, previously she's been on Medicare, Medicaid excuse me all this time, So you know, you don't have health care, you don't have predictable hours, low pay, and a lot of these people you know are really young. It just bolsters the thesis of the story that there may never been a worse time to be retail.

Most retail workers, frontline retail workers, that is, are part time employees, So trying to get a regular schedule, trying to get you know, kind of a predictable schedule, that's really tough. And there's a woman I spoke to us said she just got a job at Staples and it's the first time she's been offered healthcare. She said, you know, previously she's been on Medicare, Medicaid excuse me all this time, So you know, you don't have health care, you don't have predictable hours, low pay, and a lot of these people you know are really young. It just bolsters the thesis of the story that there may never been a worse time to be retail.

Employee and Bloomberg, we're always thinking about the global picture, and of course retail work everywhere has a lot of these problems, but in the US they're very unlikely to be unionized. I think five percent of the retail workforce is unionized. And the one person that Devin talked to who wasn't a union, she did have slightly about our pay. She was able to get the union to step in.

Employee and Bloomberg, we're always thinking about the global picture, and of course retail work everywhere has a lot of these problems, but in the US they're very unlikely to be unionized. I think five percent of the retail workforce is unionized. And the one person that Devin talked to who wasn't a union, she did have slightly about our pay. She was able to get the union to step in.

So my name is Rkdmliam. I work for H and M as a visual merchandiser and I'm under a local level O two ur WDSU. Being in a union help because it is ever a time where we don't feel safe, or if we don't feel like we're getting the help in the building, I can always contact the union reps. They'll contact someone over the actual store and make sure that we are receiving those things that we do need.

So my name is Rkdmliam. I work for H and M as a visual merchandiser and I'm under a local level O two ur WDSU. Being in a union help because it is ever a time where we don't feel safe, or if we don't feel like we're getting the help in the building, I can always contact the union reps. They'll contact someone over the actual store and make sure that we are receiving those things that we do need.

Becka, Given everything that we've been talking about here, I guess it's no surprise to find that the turnover rate in retail is really really high.

Becka, Given everything that we've been talking about here, I guess it's no surprise to find that the turnover rate in retail is really really high.

Yeah, so it's always been high. I mean because of the nature of the jobs, also the nature of the workforce. It tends to be young, like a lot of teenagers people having other jobs, are other things going on in their lives. So before the pandemic, according to corn Ferry, which is like an executive search firm, they said the quit rate was around seventy five percent and that was pretty standard, and then since the pandemic it had shot up to ninety five percent and hasn't really budged since then, which I find to be really shocking because that is just such a high number.

Yeah, so it's always been high. I mean because of the nature of the jobs, also the nature of the workforce. It tends to be young, like a lot of teenagers people having other jobs, are other things going on in their lives. So before the pandemic, according to corn Ferry, which is like an executive search firm, they said the quit rate was around seventy five percent and that was pretty standard, and then since the pandemic it had shot up to ninety five percent and hasn't really budged since then, which I find to be really shocking because that is just such a high number.

Then the high turnover means that there aren't always as many employees working, and so if you're trying to hold down the job, that just makes the job harder for you.

Then the high turnover means that there aren't always as many employees working, and so if you're trying to hold down the job, that just makes the job harder for you.

And for customers too, I suppose. I think we've all had the experience. You go into a store and there's nobody working. The person behind the register is Harry trying to deal with people in a long line. There's nobody can help you find your product.

And for customers too, I suppose. I think we've all had the experience. You go into a store and there's nobody working. The person behind the register is Harry trying to deal with people in a long line. There's nobody can help you find your product.

No, well, that's exactly what the gock fam corn Ferry, who gave with statistics. He said that these stores they're still having supply chain problems. They can't always keep their shelves stocked, and then the turnovers high. There aren't always people to help you, and so that just exacerbates, you know, customer retentions and no wonder they're snapping out on employees.

No, well, that's exactly what the gock fam corn Ferry, who gave with statistics. He said that these stores they're still having supply chain problems. They can't always keep their shelves stocked, and then the turnovers high. There aren't always people to help you, and so that just exacerbates, you know, customer retentions and no wonder they're snapping out on employees.

After the break.

After the break.

Workers struggle to deal with surly customers. We talked a little bit earlier about how retail workers have to deal with angry and patient customers, and that really is something that started to happen before and then after the pandemic.

Workers struggle to deal with surly customers. We talked a little bit earlier about how retail workers have to deal with angry and patient customers, and that really is something that started to happen before and then after the pandemic.

Why do they think that happened? Why are people just different now than they were before.

Why do they think that happened? Why are people just different now than they were before.

I think inflation, you know, contributed to some of it. Have prices going up in stores, you know, going in and trying to buy a piece of clothing that's seen all of a sudden ten dollars more than it was a couple of years ago. So here's one example. During the pandemic, American Eagle. They wouldn't take returns anymore. So guy comes in, buys a pair of khakis, comes back, you know, the store won't take the return, and he just sort of flips out. He's about to get in the fight with somebody behind him in line and a manager has to come out. But this woman's like, I'm an eighteen year old high school role and you know, how's I supposed to deal with this? It's just really shook me up.

I think inflation, you know, contributed to some of it. Have prices going up in stores, you know, going in and trying to buy a piece of clothing that's seen all of a sudden ten dollars more than it was a couple of years ago. So here's one example. During the pandemic, American Eagle. They wouldn't take returns anymore. So guy comes in, buys a pair of khakis, comes back, you know, the store won't take the return, and he just sort of flips out. He's about to get in the fight with somebody behind him in line and a manager has to come out. But this woman's like, I'm an eighteen year old high school role and you know, how's I supposed to deal with this? It's just really shook me up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then another example of how this has carried through since then is that more recently, just this June, Target has had to pull some items off of its shelves, some LGBTQ items because customers allegedly threatened some people who worked at the company's The head of the Retail, wholesale and Department Store Union said that violence in stores for political reasons is something that they never experienced in the past, like that is a new phenomenon, And that actually was part of the inspiration for this story, is that when we are covering that on the team, I was just thinking, imagine that now being part of your job, you have to deal with somebody who's angry for reasons you may or may not understand, and you're just someone working in retail and you're on the front lines of that.

And then another example of how this has carried through since then is that more recently, just this June, Target has had to pull some items off of its shelves, some LGBTQ items because customers allegedly threatened some people who worked at the company's The head of the Retail, wholesale and Department Store Union said that violence in stores for political reasons is something that they never experienced in the past, like that is a new phenomenon, And that actually was part of the inspiration for this story, is that when we are covering that on the team, I was just thinking, imagine that now being part of your job, you have to deal with somebody who's angry for reasons you may or may not understand, and you're just someone working in retail and you're on the front lines of that.

During the pandemic, when there was a really tight labor market and workers had a lot of choices, they could go other places, and a lot of these stores started to raise wages but now that the labor market is softening a bit, will we start to see this moving in the opposite direction.

During the pandemic, when there was a really tight labor market and workers had a lot of choices, they could go other places, and a lot of these stores started to raise wages but now that the labor market is softening a bit, will we start to see this moving in the opposite direction.

We're already starting to see that. Walmart recently announced that it was cutting wage for some people, but I think that's the whole point. Retail employees, they were in a position to stores had to raise their wages. But with the economy cooling and the unemployment rate going up a little bit, companies shows aren't going to have to do that anymore.

We're already starting to see that. Walmart recently announced that it was cutting wage for some people, but I think that's the whole point. Retail employees, they were in a position to stores had to raise their wages. But with the economy cooling and the unemployment rate going up a little bit, companies shows aren't going to have to do that anymore.

Becca, as you continue to watch the story and report on it, what are you looking for.

Becca, as you continue to watch the story and report on it, what are you looking for.

Last earning season, Some retailers were doing okay, some were doing worse. But I think there's a lot of forecasting for doom and gloom coming up. You know, inflation rates still rising. I think that's the big question, and how the trickle down of how that manifest at all levels is what we're always looking at from the worker experience to know.

Last earning season, Some retailers were doing okay, some were doing worse. But I think there's a lot of forecasting for doom and gloom coming up. You know, inflation rates still rising. I think that's the big question, and how the trickle down of how that manifest at all levels is what we're always looking at from the worker experience to know.

The CEO, Becca Devin, thanks for talking with me today.

The CEO, Becca Devin, thanks for talking with me today.

Great to talk to you us.

Great to talk to you us.

Thanks so much.

Thanks so much.

Let's take a step back now.

Let's take a step back now.

This Tumulton Stores is just part of the larger challenges retailers all over the country are facing with inflation and consumers cutting back on some spending and growing competitive pressures. Olivia Rockman knows all about it. She covers the industry for Bloomberg.

This Tumulton Stores is just part of the larger challenges retailers all over the country are facing with inflation and consumers cutting back on some spending and growing competitive pressures. Olivia Rockman knows all about it. She covers the industry for Bloomberg.

Yeah, So, stepping back a few years prior to the pandemic, what really started to happen in retail was that the e commerce boom started at the same time that the competition within stores was growing, and so you had too many specialty retail stores competing against each other, and all of them were opening brick and mortar locations to try to be in front of consumers. To open a store, you have to take on debt. And so these historical stores like Toys, r Us and Seers and Forever twenty one, when they really should have been moving to e commerce and social media, they were still opening stores. And that's what kind of started this phase of bankruptcies for retail that continued into the early days of the pandemic. And what that meant was that stores were closing, Some retail workers were losing their jobs, others were hiring more people the ones that were popular, and so retail workers even before the pandemic were really getting shuffled around in all kinds of ways. And then, of course the pandemic hits stores get closed, and that's kind of the beginning of the end for some of these people.

Yeah, So, stepping back a few years prior to the pandemic, what really started to happen in retail was that the e commerce boom started at the same time that the competition within stores was growing, and so you had too many specialty retail stores competing against each other, and all of them were opening brick and mortar locations to try to be in front of consumers. To open a store, you have to take on debt. And so these historical stores like Toys, r Us and Seers and Forever twenty one, when they really should have been moving to e commerce and social media, they were still opening stores. And that's what kind of started this phase of bankruptcies for retail that continued into the early days of the pandemic. And what that meant was that stores were closing, Some retail workers were losing their jobs, others were hiring more people the ones that were popular, and so retail workers even before the pandemic were really getting shuffled around in all kinds of ways. And then, of course the pandemic hits stores get closed, and that's kind of the beginning of the end for some of these people.

Yeah, I want to talk to you more about that, because we had this thing they're people calling the retail apocalypse when e commerce was coming for brick and mortar stores. Why was it that they were so slow to see what was happening to them and didn't move to online sales quicker.

Yeah, I want to talk to you more about that, because we had this thing they're people calling the retail apocalypse when e commerce was coming for brick and mortar stores. Why was it that they were so slow to see what was happening to them and didn't move to online sales quicker.

It's like any technological advancement where some companies take it on faster and they're the winners and some don't, and so it's just kind of a typical whole winners losers story in that sense.

It's like any technological advancement where some companies take it on faster and they're the winners and some don't, and so it's just kind of a typical whole winners losers story in that sense.

So it seemed for a while there that online was going to be everything, and some brick and mortar retailers really dug in and said, no, people want to come into stores and they still want to be able to touch the things we're selling and try them on in the fitting room the old fashioned way.

So it seemed for a while there that online was going to be everything, and some brick and mortar retailers really dug in and said, no, people want to come into stores and they still want to be able to touch the things we're selling and try them on in the fitting room the old fashioned way.

Has that borne out.

Has that borne out.

The way it's shaken out post pandemic is that e commerce accounts for about thirty percent of retail sales and brick and mortar accounts for about seventy percent, and so it's become very clear that you need what retail jargon calls omni channel. You need to be in stores and you also need to be online. In stores is still a majority of what people are doing, But thirty percent is you know, nothing to shrug up.

The way it's shaken out post pandemic is that e commerce accounts for about thirty percent of retail sales and brick and mortar accounts for about seventy percent, and so it's become very clear that you need what retail jargon calls omni channel. You need to be in stores and you also need to be online. In stores is still a majority of what people are doing, But thirty percent is you know, nothing to shrug up.

What are you finding that retailers say is their biggest challenge. Now we've talked about some of the things facing these employees, it seems like running a brick and mortar store right now is a pretty difficult thing to do.

What are you finding that retailers say is their biggest challenge. Now we've talked about some of the things facing these employees, it seems like running a brick and mortar store right now is a pretty difficult thing to do.

That's right.

That's right.

So what we hear about in earnings calls is a combination of what's again in retail jargon called shrink, but it's really theft and crime. We hear a lot about concerns about the macroeconomy. We hear about specifically student loan repayments coming up and that affecting the sales. When it comes to how that affects the employees in stores, obviously, shrink is the most obvious right when you have theft that affects the safety of the employees. So in the most recent earnings calls for the second quarter, which is the period through June, it's a time when these retail companies have to be honest about their performance. And so in the most recent round of those calls. What we heard as a big topic was theft and shoplifting. What we're hearing about shrink is it's coming from two places. It's sometimes it's organized crime, where these kind of crime rings are figuring out ways to take very highly valuable products and sell them on a separate market. But we're also hearing that sometimes it's the employees themselves that are stealing things. And some of this is coming from obviously economic shifts where people are desperate to make money. In other ways, some of this is coming from, you know, the apocalypse of cities that took place during the pandemic, and there's more hardship in city centers.

So what we hear about in earnings calls is a combination of what's again in retail jargon called shrink, but it's really theft and crime. We hear a lot about concerns about the macroeconomy. We hear about specifically student loan repayments coming up and that affecting the sales. When it comes to how that affects the employees in stores, obviously, shrink is the most obvious right when you have theft that affects the safety of the employees. So in the most recent earnings calls for the second quarter, which is the period through June, it's a time when these retail companies have to be honest about their performance. And so in the most recent round of those calls. What we heard as a big topic was theft and shoplifting. What we're hearing about shrink is it's coming from two places. It's sometimes it's organized crime, where these kind of crime rings are figuring out ways to take very highly valuable products and sell them on a separate market. But we're also hearing that sometimes it's the employees themselves that are stealing things. And some of this is coming from obviously economic shifts where people are desperate to make money. In other ways, some of this is coming from, you know, the apocalypse of cities that took place during the pandemic, and there's more hardship in city centers.

But then it's also just like straight up shoplifting, right, which or it's not an organized kind of thing.

But then it's also just like straight up shoplifting, right, which or it's not an organized kind of thing.

That's right, there's always regular shoplifting in persons stores. These companies have financial systems and security to try to account for that type of shoplifting. But as I said, you know, some of the struggles post pandemic and city centers have meant that it's likely that that hardship is contributing to more shoplifting in places like San Francisco and Portland and others. Another broader economic challenge that's coming up more recently for retailers is this idea of the end of student loan forebearance. And so for more than three years, millions of Americans have not had to pay their student loans, and the average student loan payment is as much as four hundred dollars a month. So retailer are getting really worried that that bill that's going to come due now for many Americans is going to stop them from spending at retail stores, whether that's on clothes or electronics or other things.

That's right, there's always regular shoplifting in persons stores. These companies have financial systems and security to try to account for that type of shoplifting. But as I said, you know, some of the struggles post pandemic and city centers have meant that it's likely that that hardship is contributing to more shoplifting in places like San Francisco and Portland and others. Another broader economic challenge that's coming up more recently for retailers is this idea of the end of student loan forebearance. And so for more than three years, millions of Americans have not had to pay their student loans, and the average student loan payment is as much as four hundred dollars a month. So retailer are getting really worried that that bill that's going to come due now for many Americans is going to stop them from spending at retail stores, whether that's on clothes or electronics or other things.

And that's something that retailers are saying on their earnings calls that the end of student loan forgiveness is going to affect their bottom lines.

And that's something that retailers are saying on their earnings calls that the end of student loan forgiveness is going to affect their bottom lines.

Yeah, that has come up in companies ranging from Levi to Target and many others. That being said, we've also seen really really strong performance from some retailers. Lululemons sales were off the charts, Abercrombie sales were off the charts in the most recent period as we're urban outfitters, and none of those companies mentioned student loans.

Yeah, that has come up in companies ranging from Levi to Target and many others. That being said, we've also seen really really strong performance from some retailers. Lululemons sales were off the charts, Abercrombie sales were off the charts in the most recent period as we're urban outfitters, and none of those companies mentioned student loans.

And so we know that.

And so we know that.

For brands that are a catering to higher income Americans, but also brands that are just very popular right now, It's not all bad out there. It seems like the brands like department stores that we're having a hard time before the pandemic are now kind of talking about economic concerns, maybe as an excuse for their performance, but also maybe because it's a real concern for lower income Americans.

For brands that are a catering to higher income Americans, but also brands that are just very popular right now, It's not all bad out there. It seems like the brands like department stores that we're having a hard time before the pandemic are now kind of talking about economic concerns, maybe as an excuse for their performance, but also maybe because it's a real concern for lower income Americans.

What are some other ways that they're trying to protect themselves for the future.

What are some other ways that they're trying to protect themselves for the future.

What analysts tell me about the keys to a successful retail company right now is kind of this idea of being sticky in a consumer's life. So you can't just be in a store, you can't just be online. You have to be on TikTok, you got to be on Instagram. You've got to have a membership or a loyalty program. You know, Lululemon does running clubs where these people meet at a lu Lemon store before they're run And so the more you can kind of be in any aspect of a consumer's life, as creepy as that might sound, the more likely they are at a shop with you. And so that is the store of the future is being on all platforms.

What analysts tell me about the keys to a successful retail company right now is kind of this idea of being sticky in a consumer's life. So you can't just be in a store, you can't just be online. You have to be on TikTok, you got to be on Instagram. You've got to have a membership or a loyalty program. You know, Lululemon does running clubs where these people meet at a lu Lemon store before they're run And so the more you can kind of be in any aspect of a consumer's life, as creepy as that might sound, the more likely they are at a shop with you. And so that is the store of the future is being on all platforms.

And what about employees. That's something we've been talking a lot about today. The pay has often been challenging. Employees complain they can't get enough hours, or their schedules that are already shifting. There's complaints about management. What are retailers doing to make their places more attractive to workers, especially in a tight labor market where workers have choices.

And what about employees. That's something we've been talking a lot about today. The pay has often been challenging. Employees complain they can't get enough hours, or their schedules that are already shifting. There's complaints about management. What are retailers doing to make their places more attractive to workers, especially in a tight labor market where workers have choices.

So two big retailers, Macy's and Low's, announced that they were investing. For Mac's it was about a billion dollars and for Lows it was around the same making these major investments in employee training, employee wages, and that was their attempt to solve some of the problems that really started to emerge during the pandemic. And we've heard from macy since and they've said that that program is going well and that they're attracting more employees because their wages are now higher. Higher wages for a retail company are still often between fifteen and twenty dollars an hour, which for many is not enough to live on, especially if you live in a big city. The extent to which that will keep employees happy is unclear.

So two big retailers, Macy's and Low's, announced that they were investing. For Mac's it was about a billion dollars and for Lows it was around the same making these major investments in employee training, employee wages, and that was their attempt to solve some of the problems that really started to emerge during the pandemic. And we've heard from macy since and they've said that that program is going well and that they're attracting more employees because their wages are now higher. Higher wages for a retail company are still often between fifteen and twenty dollars an hour, which for many is not enough to live on, especially if you live in a big city. The extent to which that will keep employees happy is unclear.

When we come back, what can stores do to try to turn things around.

When we come back, what can stores do to try to turn things around.

Olivia?

Olivia?

We started out talking about the retail apocalypse and how Before the pandemic, retailers were going.

We started out talking about the retail apocalypse and how Before the pandemic, retailers were going.

Through all sorts of troubles. So what's happening now.

Through all sorts of troubles. So what's happening now.

After the retail apocalypse. Obviously the pandemic hit, and what happened in twenty twenty was that there was so much stimulus and also such a high savings rate for people that were now at home and not traveling or going to concerts, that people just started to buy a lot of stuff. They bought clothes, they bought shoes. We've heard this narrative the pandemic was a tide that lifted all boats, like people were willing to buy stuff from anywhere they had money. What is happening now is, you know, as we talked about, student loan payments are coming back, the savings rate is coming down, the stimulus payments have been spent. People are going to tailors with concerts. What's really emerging is that there's winners and losers. So the companies that were struggling with sinking sales before the pandemic that sort of did okay in twenty twenty twenty one, their weaknesses and their cracks are emerging again. And the companies that were doing well before the pandemic are continuing to kind of knock it out of the park. And so I think we're going back to that story of twenty nineteen, which is that these mall brands and these brands that have failed to adapt to the modern times are not necessarily going to thrive the retail apocalypse that we talked about, all of the companies that had a lot of debt mostly went into bankruptcy at that time. Now what you have is companies that have sinking sales but that don't have debt coming due until twenty twenty nine, twenty thirty, and so we might have some kind of zombie companies that are around and you still hear about, but that you know are not going to survive in the next decade.

After the retail apocalypse. Obviously the pandemic hit, and what happened in twenty twenty was that there was so much stimulus and also such a high savings rate for people that were now at home and not traveling or going to concerts, that people just started to buy a lot of stuff. They bought clothes, they bought shoes. We've heard this narrative the pandemic was a tide that lifted all boats, like people were willing to buy stuff from anywhere they had money. What is happening now is, you know, as we talked about, student loan payments are coming back, the savings rate is coming down, the stimulus payments have been spent. People are going to tailors with concerts. What's really emerging is that there's winners and losers. So the companies that were struggling with sinking sales before the pandemic that sort of did okay in twenty twenty twenty one, their weaknesses and their cracks are emerging again. And the companies that were doing well before the pandemic are continuing to kind of knock it out of the park. And so I think we're going back to that story of twenty nineteen, which is that these mall brands and these brands that have failed to adapt to the modern times are not necessarily going to thrive the retail apocalypse that we talked about, all of the companies that had a lot of debt mostly went into bankruptcy at that time. Now what you have is companies that have sinking sales but that don't have debt coming due until twenty twenty nine, twenty thirty, and so we might have some kind of zombie companies that are around and you still hear about, but that you know are not going to survive in the next decade.

Olivia. Another thing is that prices are going up.

Olivia. Another thing is that prices are going up.

There's inflation, but there's also a question of our prices rising faster than inflation.

There's inflation, but there's also a question of our prices rising faster than inflation.

During the period where prices were rising really fast, economists started to question, like was this because costs were higher, or was this like, you know, were they using the supply chain issues as an excuse to raise prices more than they needed to. And a lot of truth has come out of that from the corporate profits data we've seen that corporate profits have risen significantly since before the pandemic. You know, input costs rose and they had to raise prices, but there was a lot of what's called excuse flation, and so prices are likely higher than they really need to be and profits have improved across US companies as a result of that. Shoppers obviously are more squeezed as a result, especially those of the lower income spectrum.

During the period where prices were rising really fast, economists started to question, like was this because costs were higher, or was this like, you know, were they using the supply chain issues as an excuse to raise prices more than they needed to. And a lot of truth has come out of that from the corporate profits data we've seen that corporate profits have risen significantly since before the pandemic. You know, input costs rose and they had to raise prices, but there was a lot of what's called excuse flation, and so prices are likely higher than they really need to be and profits have improved across US companies as a result of that. Shoppers obviously are more squeezed as a result, especially those of the lower income spectrum.

And you said during the pandemic, when people had kind of more money in their pockets and they weren't going out spending money on other things, they were willing to shop. I suppose now there could be sort of a reckoning, a readjustment of people's willingness to pay higher prices.

And you said during the pandemic, when people had kind of more money in their pockets and they weren't going out spending money on other things, they were willing to shop. I suppose now there could be sort of a reckoning, a readjustment of people's willingness to pay higher prices.

That's right.

That's right.

And we actually heard from Levi, this was the first company that discussed it, that they have lowered prices on some items at this point, they've lowered prices on items that they sell in stores like Walmart and Target because they know that people are being squeezed. I'll be watching really closely to see if we hear more about disinflation, especially in clothing.

And we actually heard from Levi, this was the first company that discussed it, that they have lowered prices on some items at this point, they've lowered prices on items that they sell in stores like Walmart and Target because they know that people are being squeezed. I'll be watching really closely to see if we hear more about disinflation, especially in clothing.

Olivia, this was really interesting. Thanks for taking the time talk to me.

Olivia, this was really interesting. Thanks for taking the time talk to me.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Burgolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers are Mow Barrow and Michael Falero. Rafae al m Sely is our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Cidrin. I'm wes Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take. Bug Dam Tam, pap, Bam, Bam, bamber

Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Burgolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers are Mow Barrow and Michael Falero. Rafae al m Sely is our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Cidrin. I'm wes Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take. Bug Dam Tam, pap, Bam, Bam, bamber