Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

Man, welcome back to Coast to Coast. George Nori with you, Doctor Michael Schumer with us for the next couple hours. Founding publisher of Skeptic Magazine, the host of the podcast The Michael Schumer Show, Presidential fellow at Chapman University, where he teaches skepticism one oh one. For eighteen plus years, he was a monthly columnist for The Scientific American and writes a weekly substack column as well. Michael regularly contributes opinion editorials, essays reviews to The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, Science, Nature, and other publications. He's also a noted author. One of his recent books, Conspiracy, Why the Rational Believe the Irrational? Michael, welcome back. Have you been.

Man, welcome back to Coast to Coast. George Nori with you, Doctor Michael Schumer with us for the next couple hours. Founding publisher of Skeptic Magazine, the host of the podcast The Michael Schumer Show, Presidential fellow at Chapman University, where he teaches skepticism one oh one. For eighteen plus years, he was a monthly columnist for The Scientific American and writes a weekly substack column as well. Michael regularly contributes opinion editorials, essays reviews to The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, Science, Nature, and other publications. He's also a noted author. One of his recent books, Conspiracy, Why the Rational Believe the Irrational? Michael, welcome back. Have you been.

Oh I'm doing well, George, Thank you. Yes, exciting times in UFO ology.

Oh I'm doing well, George, Thank you. Yes, exciting times in UFO ology.

Oh my gosh, we'll talk a lot about that. Boy, your name comes up a lot on this program. Did you know that.

Oh my gosh, we'll talk a lot about that. Boy, your name comes up a lot on this program. Did you know that.

I do hear that periodically from that. Listen to your show.

I do hear that periodically from that. Listen to your show.

Yeah, we defend you.

Yeah, we defend you.

Yes, I have very good things.

Yes, I have very good things.

Actually, well, you know there's I think it's healthy to be skeptical. You know you're looking for the answers.

Actually, well, you know there's I think it's healthy to be skeptical. You know you're looking for the answers.

Well, that's right. Skepticism is not cynicism, it's not denial, it's not nihilism. It's just curiosity. We all want to know what's the truth, and the fact is we all get it wrong much at the time, and so we want to know, you know, what, what is actually true, and we don't want to get it wrong. And the basic problem is that none of us are omniscient. No one knows for sure. I don't know. You don't either, So we have to work together through the best tools we have of science and reason to figure out what's going on. So, you know, I never assign a zero or one probability to anything. You know, anything is possible, and nothing is impossible, so almost nothing, So you know, I try to keep an open mind. I do think, you know, it's very probable that they're are extraterrestrial intelligences somewhere out there in the cosmos. But I think that's a separate question from have they come here to Earth, And in each case, we don't know one way or the other for sure, and so we should keep looking, keep searching. I think it's one of the greatest questions that anyone can ask. Are we alone?

Well, that's right. Skepticism is not cynicism, it's not denial, it's not nihilism. It's just curiosity. We all want to know what's the truth, and the fact is we all get it wrong much at the time, and so we want to know, you know, what, what is actually true, and we don't want to get it wrong. And the basic problem is that none of us are omniscient. No one knows for sure. I don't know. You don't either, So we have to work together through the best tools we have of science and reason to figure out what's going on. So, you know, I never assign a zero or one probability to anything. You know, anything is possible, and nothing is impossible, so almost nothing, So you know, I try to keep an open mind. I do think, you know, it's very probable that they're are extraterrestrial intelligences somewhere out there in the cosmos. But I think that's a separate question from have they come here to Earth, And in each case, we don't know one way or the other for sure, and so we should keep looking, keep searching. I think it's one of the greatest questions that anyone can ask. Are we alone?

It sure is? And people are seeing weird things though, aren't they.

It sure is? And people are seeing weird things though, aren't they.

Yeah, but they've always seen weird things.

Yeah, but they've always seen weird things.

You know.

You know.

There's kind of a burst of media coverage about UAPs in the last few weeks, and the problem of having an institutional memory like I have, having studied this now for well over thirty years, really even more like forty or fifty years if you go back to my youth reading Carl Sagan. You know, we've been hearing stories about this. You know, disclosure is coming at any time. The government's kind of covering it all up Area fifty one. The secrets we're going to find out soon. There's these sightings and this, and that I've been hearing this for so long. I'm just you know, frustrated, Like, come on, let's get to the bottom of it. Quit telling me stories and show us the photographs, show us the actual spacecraft. And you know, I'm hoping that this latest revelation that Macro Rubio you know, is going to really look into this. Maybe maybe he's got the actual power to do something about it, but maybe not. You know, I mean Bill Clinton, you know, famously said when he became President, I'm going to get to the bottom of roswell. And you know Obama said he would go on and nothing ever comes of it. So I just I don't know why. My suspicion is that there has nothing to do with aliens and everything to do with national security secrets over experimental aircraft and drones and spy equipment that we're using that we don't want the Chinese and Russians and other even our allies to know about. And so even my suspicion is that even if Marco Rubio somehow got a path to go into Area fifty one or wherever, and and they showed him what people have been talking about, my guess is it would be something like, you know, we are ten years ahead of the Soviets and the Chinese on this incredibly stealthy bomber. Here it is, and it's like, oh, well, I can't go to the public and tell her about this. No, of course you can't. This is stop secret. Oh darn you know. That's what I suspect it will happen. But you know, I could be wrong. I hope he comes out and says, hey, I found it. I found out. You know, we have we had the aliens or whatever, but I'm highly skeptical.

There's kind of a burst of media coverage about UAPs in the last few weeks, and the problem of having an institutional memory like I have, having studied this now for well over thirty years, really even more like forty or fifty years if you go back to my youth reading Carl Sagan. You know, we've been hearing stories about this. You know, disclosure is coming at any time. The government's kind of covering it all up Area fifty one. The secrets we're going to find out soon. There's these sightings and this, and that I've been hearing this for so long. I'm just you know, frustrated, Like, come on, let's get to the bottom of it. Quit telling me stories and show us the photographs, show us the actual spacecraft. And you know, I'm hoping that this latest revelation that Macro Rubio you know, is going to really look into this. Maybe maybe he's got the actual power to do something about it, but maybe not. You know, I mean Bill Clinton, you know, famously said when he became President, I'm going to get to the bottom of roswell. And you know Obama said he would go on and nothing ever comes of it. So I just I don't know why. My suspicion is that there has nothing to do with aliens and everything to do with national security secrets over experimental aircraft and drones and spy equipment that we're using that we don't want the Chinese and Russians and other even our allies to know about. And so even my suspicion is that even if Marco Rubio somehow got a path to go into Area fifty one or wherever, and and they showed him what people have been talking about, my guess is it would be something like, you know, we are ten years ahead of the Soviets and the Chinese on this incredibly stealthy bomber. Here it is, and it's like, oh, well, I can't go to the public and tell her about this. No, of course you can't. This is stop secret. Oh darn you know. That's what I suspect it will happen. But you know, I could be wrong. I hope he comes out and says, hey, I found it. I found out. You know, we have we had the aliens or whatever, but I'm highly skeptical.

Edgar Mitchell, the late Apollo fourteen astronaut walked on the Moon, once told me Michael that he has been told by people in government now we are being visited. And he was darn serious about that too.

Edgar Mitchell, the late Apollo fourteen astronaut walked on the Moon, once told me Michael that he has been told by people in government now we are being visited. And he was darn serious about that too.

Yes, I've seen those interviews with Mitchell, and you know, like the latest round we had, you know, David Gresh said, you know, he talked to people who touched the spacecraft and who saw it and so on. And then we had I had Michael Schallenberger on my show, and you know, after the grudg story broke, Schallenberger talked to some people, but he wouldn't tell me who he talked to, you know, as Drush wouldn't either, says he. You know, you protect your sources, all right, you know. And then Mark Rubio said, he talked to people that you know, direct had direct context. Okay, so we have three sources. So that tells me that, you know, these people are not just making this up. They're actually talking to somebody. But who are the people they're talking to We don't know. And what is it that the people that they talked to actually saw, you know, we don't know. Somebody says, well, it was you know, incredibly unusual, and you know, it appeared to me to be off world technology. But what if the person they're talking to doesn't know that they're actually looking at some super advanced dark you know, secret weapon in a credled drone or a spipe lane, the equivalent of the YouTube spipeline or the SARS seventy word blackbird or the stealth bomber, something like, you know, twenty years advance from what we know about now that they've developed, because that's how it works. What if they're looking at that and they go, man, this is incredible. I have no idea what I'm looking at, and then they tell Schellenburger or Crush or Rubio, I saw and touch this thing. I just have no idea. It seems offworld, and it's what if that's what it is?

Yes, I've seen those interviews with Mitchell, and you know, like the latest round we had, you know, David Gresh said, you know, he talked to people who touched the spacecraft and who saw it and so on. And then we had I had Michael Schallenberger on my show, and you know, after the grudg story broke, Schallenberger talked to some people, but he wouldn't tell me who he talked to, you know, as Drush wouldn't either, says he. You know, you protect your sources, all right, you know. And then Mark Rubio said, he talked to people that you know, direct had direct context. Okay, so we have three sources. So that tells me that, you know, these people are not just making this up. They're actually talking to somebody. But who are the people they're talking to We don't know. And what is it that the people that they talked to actually saw, you know, we don't know. Somebody says, well, it was you know, incredibly unusual, and you know, it appeared to me to be off world technology. But what if the person they're talking to doesn't know that they're actually looking at some super advanced dark you know, secret weapon in a credled drone or a spipe lane, the equivalent of the YouTube spipeline or the SARS seventy word blackbird or the stealth bomber, something like, you know, twenty years advance from what we know about now that they've developed, because that's how it works. What if they're looking at that and they go, man, this is incredible. I have no idea what I'm looking at, and then they tell Schellenburger or Crush or Rubio, I saw and touch this thing. I just have no idea. It seems offworld, and it's what if that's what it is?

If we find out that we are being visited. What does Michael Schumer say after that?

If we find out that we are being visited. What does Michael Schumer say after that?

I would print right on the cover of Skeptic magazine I was wrong, would you really? Oh yeah, of course, yeah, yeah sure, because I don't I don't have any invested, ideological or religious or whatever interest in denying this. I in fact, like Carl Sagan, I would be thrilled to know that we're not alone. That you know, this truly would be one of the greatest discoveries of all time, if not the greatest discovery and all of science, that you know, we are not alone in the cosmos. I think it would be incredibly exciting, and I would I would like to know that, and it wouldn't bother me. And by the way, I should know parenthetically that you know, there's a lot of kind of memes going around that if we were just if we discovered aliens, you know, religions would be upset and governments would fall apart in economies would collect none. That's true. You know, the study surveys after surveys, ask Christians and Jews and Muslims and other religious people, you know, would just disrupt your religious faith if you found out that, you know, there were extraterstrial intelligences, And the answer is almost universally no, you know, because if you really believe that God is an omniscient being, omnipot eaten, why why would it matter how many life forms he could create in the universe or whatever? You know, So I don't think any of that's true. I think most people would be thrilled to discover this. I don't think it would disrupt anything. And there's no reason to keep a secret other than if there really is some kind of back engineering of technology that we could use to our advantage over the Russians or Chinese or something like that. Then that's the only argument I've ever heard that you would lead to why they would keep it secret, but not for any social or political reasons.

I would print right on the cover of Skeptic magazine I was wrong, would you really? Oh yeah, of course, yeah, yeah sure, because I don't I don't have any invested, ideological or religious or whatever interest in denying this. I in fact, like Carl Sagan, I would be thrilled to know that we're not alone. That you know, this truly would be one of the greatest discoveries of all time, if not the greatest discovery and all of science, that you know, we are not alone in the cosmos. I think it would be incredibly exciting, and I would I would like to know that, and it wouldn't bother me. And by the way, I should know parenthetically that you know, there's a lot of kind of memes going around that if we were just if we discovered aliens, you know, religions would be upset and governments would fall apart in economies would collect none. That's true. You know, the study surveys after surveys, ask Christians and Jews and Muslims and other religious people, you know, would just disrupt your religious faith if you found out that, you know, there were extraterstrial intelligences, And the answer is almost universally no, you know, because if you really believe that God is an omniscient being, omnipot eaten, why why would it matter how many life forms he could create in the universe or whatever? You know, So I don't think any of that's true. I think most people would be thrilled to discover this. I don't think it would disrupt anything. And there's no reason to keep a secret other than if there really is some kind of back engineering of technology that we could use to our advantage over the Russians or Chinese or something like that. Then that's the only argument I've ever heard that you would lead to why they would keep it secret, but not for any social or political reasons.

Well, the Catholic Church, Michael has publicly made it known that the belief in extraterrestrial life is not negating your belief in God, so they stand by the fact that it's very possible that there could be life out there.

Well, the Catholic Church, Michael has publicly made it known that the belief in extraterrestrial life is not negating your belief in God, so they stand by the fact that it's very possible that there could be life out there.

Sure, I mean, if you're God, you can praise as many life forms as you want you can send. If you're Christians, you can send Jesus to all the different planets and forgive the sins of those alien industry whatever.

Sure, I mean, if you're God, you can praise as many life forms as you want you can send. If you're Christians, you can send Jesus to all the different planets and forgive the sins of those alien industry whatever.

You know.

You know.

No, I don't think it would bother people, you know, I mean, you know, much of the most of the discoveries of science over the last four hundred years have not killed religion like people thought it would. And you know, so people adjust, you know, the religious faiths to changing evidence and science and so so I don't think this would disrupt anything. In fact, I think, if anything, it would make people feel in the same sense that they feel religiously, like, so we really are not alone. There really are other beings out there, and in a way that does feel good. It's like, oh, okay, yeah, so you know we're not the only ones. And I do think the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, for everything from the SETI program to u apology has underneath it and this not unique to me. Carl Sagham made this argument back in the sixties. A religious impulse a kind of deeper sense, like we want to know, is there somebody else out there that's powerful, more powerful than us knows we're here, you know that sort of thing. And I think that does touch a deep human impulse and need to search for that, And that's why this is such a really interesting compelling subject.

No, I don't think it would bother people, you know, I mean, you know, much of the most of the discoveries of science over the last four hundred years have not killed religion like people thought it would. And you know, so people adjust, you know, the religious faiths to changing evidence and science and so so I don't think this would disrupt anything. In fact, I think, if anything, it would make people feel in the same sense that they feel religiously, like, so we really are not alone. There really are other beings out there, and in a way that does feel good. It's like, oh, okay, yeah, so you know we're not the only ones. And I do think the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, for everything from the SETI program to u apology has underneath it and this not unique to me. Carl Sagham made this argument back in the sixties. A religious impulse a kind of deeper sense, like we want to know, is there somebody else out there that's powerful, more powerful than us knows we're here, you know that sort of thing. And I think that does touch a deep human impulse and need to search for that, And that's why this is such a really interesting compelling subject.

I'm assuming that your belief in God would be more agnostic instead of an atheist. Is that correct?

I'm assuming that your belief in God would be more agnostic instead of an atheist. Is that correct?

Well, I'm an atheist in the sense that I don't believe in God. I think it's very unlikely that there is a God. Technically, ontologically speaking, you know what's the nature of reality. I don't know there could be a god for sure, so I never say zero to anything. But I don't live my life as if you know it could happen any day. I'll change my mind tomorrow. It's very unlikely I think that there is a God. More likely that there would be, you know, an exceptionally advanced extraterrestrial intelligence that would appear indistinguishable from God. I mean, if we discovered an alien civilization that was, you know, a million years more advanced than us, they probably probably would seem omniscient and omnipotent. You know, compare like what we can do to what neanderthol has had for their toolkit, you know, to a neanderthoal, we would seem godlike. And if we discovered aliens, that's what they would be like. They wouldn't be just ten years ahead of us or hundred years ahead of us. It'd be you know, one hundred thousand years ahead of us or a million years ahead of us, just because evolution doesn't you know, run along parallel lines like that on different planets, and we're not going to find them if they're way behind us unless we actually land on some other planets. So if we discover them them coming here, we pick up their signal. It's they're going to be more advanced than us, and so my speculation is that they they would appear omniscient to us, like divine beings.

Well, I'm an atheist in the sense that I don't believe in God. I think it's very unlikely that there is a God. Technically, ontologically speaking, you know what's the nature of reality. I don't know there could be a god for sure, so I never say zero to anything. But I don't live my life as if you know it could happen any day. I'll change my mind tomorrow. It's very unlikely I think that there is a God. More likely that there would be, you know, an exceptionally advanced extraterrestrial intelligence that would appear indistinguishable from God. I mean, if we discovered an alien civilization that was, you know, a million years more advanced than us, they probably probably would seem omniscient and omnipotent. You know, compare like what we can do to what neanderthol has had for their toolkit, you know, to a neanderthoal, we would seem godlike. And if we discovered aliens, that's what they would be like. They wouldn't be just ten years ahead of us or hundred years ahead of us. It'd be you know, one hundred thousand years ahead of us or a million years ahead of us, just because evolution doesn't you know, run along parallel lines like that on different planets, and we're not going to find them if they're way behind us unless we actually land on some other planets. So if we discover them them coming here, we pick up their signal. It's they're going to be more advanced than us, and so my speculation is that they they would appear omniscient to us, like divine beings.

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