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Man, welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you. Let me tell you about our guest. Gregory Shushan, PhD, is a historian of religions, an award winning author, leading authority on near death experiences and the afterlife across cultures and throughout history. Doctor Shushan has conducted his research at various institutions, including the University of Oxford's Ian Ramsey Center for Science and Religion in London's Institute of Archaeology. His latest book is called Near Death Experience in Ancient Civilizations. Gregory, welcome to the program.

Man, welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you. Let me tell you about our guest. Gregory Shushan, PhD, is a historian of religions, an award winning author, leading authority on near death experiences and the afterlife across cultures and throughout history. Doctor Shushan has conducted his research at various institutions, including the University of Oxford's Ian Ramsey Center for Science and Religion in London's Institute of Archaeology. His latest book is called Near Death Experience in Ancient Civilizations. Gregory, welcome to the program.

Thanks very much, George, appreciate it being on.

Thanks very much, George, appreciate it being on.

Looking forward to this. Tell us a little bit more about yourself. Incredible background.

Looking forward to this. Tell us a little bit more about yourself. Incredible background.

Oh well, thanks. I actually started out doing Egyptian archaeology that was at the Institute of Archaeology in London, and throughout the course of my research that it sort of changed from being specifically archaeology being more like comparative religion. I diffected at a certain point to religious studies, so I could do these kind of cross cultural comparisons. But the archaeological background, I think really helped to inform my work and steer it in the direction that was going, which is, you know, the importance of evidence, for example, and doing things that are kind of methodical, scholarly sort of way.

Oh well, thanks. I actually started out doing Egyptian archaeology that was at the Institute of Archaeology in London, and throughout the course of my research that it sort of changed from being specifically archaeology being more like comparative religion. I diffected at a certain point to religious studies, so I could do these kind of cross cultural comparisons. But the archaeological background, I think really helped to inform my work and steer it in the direction that was going, which is, you know, the importance of evidence, for example, and doing things that are kind of methodical, scholarly sort of way.

My late father would have been one hundred and two this month, was born in Cairo and stayed there until he was six years old. They weren't Egyptian, but that's where they were when he decided to come out and see the world. Wow. Yeah, it's amazing. Since you've been doing this, what has been the most fascinating aspect of your work.

My late father would have been one hundred and two this month, was born in Cairo and stayed there until he was six years old. They weren't Egyptian, but that's where they were when he decided to come out and see the world. Wow. Yeah, it's amazing. Since you've been doing this, what has been the most fascinating aspect of your work.

That's a great question, and it doesn't have a simple answer. I would say the most fascinating aspect is the similarities across cultures of afterlife beliefs, and specifically the way those beliefs correspond to near death experiences. So that kind of my path is kind of trying to understand whether these beliefs around the world have this shared experiential foundation to them, basically that you know, they're the origins of the world afterlife beliefs lying in mbes. But at the same time, the other most fascinating thing is how they differ. So, for example, near death experiences themselves differ quite a lot around the world. We have very kind of stereotypical ideas of what the near death experience is, and so one of them, the kind of chief characteristics that come to people's mind is speeding through a dark tunnel and then coming out into bright light. But in some societies, for example in Polynesia, they don't have a tunnel at all. Instead they talk about walking along a path to the other world, and they will even say that they they were able to see the footprints of people who had gone before them. So it's still this idea of trends, you know, transferring from this world to the next world in a spirit form, but there's no tunnel there. There's a dirt passage dead. So that trying to understand those differences in similarities, they think, is a really crucial question in new death studies, which has really, i think not been explored enough.

That's a great question, and it doesn't have a simple answer. I would say the most fascinating aspect is the similarities across cultures of afterlife beliefs, and specifically the way those beliefs correspond to near death experiences. So that kind of my path is kind of trying to understand whether these beliefs around the world have this shared experiential foundation to them, basically that you know, they're the origins of the world afterlife beliefs lying in mbes. But at the same time, the other most fascinating thing is how they differ. So, for example, near death experiences themselves differ quite a lot around the world. We have very kind of stereotypical ideas of what the near death experience is, and so one of them, the kind of chief characteristics that come to people's mind is speeding through a dark tunnel and then coming out into bright light. But in some societies, for example in Polynesia, they don't have a tunnel at all. Instead they talk about walking along a path to the other world, and they will even say that they they were able to see the footprints of people who had gone before them. So it's still this idea of trends, you know, transferring from this world to the next world in a spirit form, but there's no tunnel there. There's a dirt passage dead. So that trying to understand those differences in similarities, they think, is a really crucial question in new death studies, which has really, i think not been explored enough.

Two ancient writings of books that I've got to ask you about, the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Tibetan Book of the Dead, they seem to have a pretty good handle on the afterlife.

Two ancient writings of books that I've got to ask you about, the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Tibetan Book of the Dead, they seem to have a pretty good handle on the afterlife.

Then, absolutely they do. Yeah, And that was one of the things that made me think you know that they got these ideas about in afterlife from new death experiences. Because when I the way I sort of got into this, I was reading the ancient Egyptian text actually earlier than the Book of the Dead. I was working at the pyramid texts and coffin texts from the Old Kingdom and then the Middle Kingdom, and I started noticing that if you strip away some of the cultural descriptions from them, were left with something that looks very much like a near death experience. So the soul leaves the body, it leaves the mummy, It travels through darkness, through these different caverns and caves, through the other world. It encounters being of light in the form of the sun god ray, and it meets to seize relatives. There's a review of their life, to kind of understand what they did in their in their life and what kind of afterlife they deserve on the basis of their actions in their life. And so these elements were very similar to a near death experience, I thought, And so that was kind of what made me think, if they's if they're that similar in Egypt, where else, you know, how far can I extend this? And so then I looked at India and China and meso America and Mesopotamia to try to, you know, untangle where these beliefs are coming from.

Then, absolutely they do. Yeah, And that was one of the things that made me think you know that they got these ideas about in afterlife from new death experiences. Because when I the way I sort of got into this, I was reading the ancient Egyptian text actually earlier than the Book of the Dead. I was working at the pyramid texts and coffin texts from the Old Kingdom and then the Middle Kingdom, and I started noticing that if you strip away some of the cultural descriptions from them, were left with something that looks very much like a near death experience. So the soul leaves the body, it leaves the mummy, It travels through darkness, through these different caverns and caves, through the other world. It encounters being of light in the form of the sun god ray, and it meets to seize relatives. There's a review of their life, to kind of understand what they did in their in their life and what kind of afterlife they deserve on the basis of their actions in their life. And so these elements were very similar to a near death experience, I thought, And so that was kind of what made me think, if they's if they're that similar in Egypt, where else, you know, how far can I extend this? And so then I looked at India and China and meso America and Mesopotamia to try to, you know, untangle where these beliefs are coming from.

And the beliefs and mysteries are all over the place, aren't they.

And the beliefs and mysteries are all over the place, aren't they.

They are, Yeah, And there's pretty much almost every culture has some kind of afterlife belief. I mean, I did another study on near death experience in indigenous religions and tribal societies from the Pacific and Native Americans and Africans, and I found something like seventy examples of near death experiences, and among those at least half of them, more than half of them. In fact, the person who was talking to the missionary or the anthropologist actually explained, we know about the afterlife because so and so went there on this particular date and he came back, came back to life, and he told us what he actually experienced.

They are, Yeah, And there's pretty much almost every culture has some kind of afterlife belief. I mean, I did another study on near death experience in indigenous religions and tribal societies from the Pacific and Native Americans and Africans, and I found something like seventy examples of near death experiences, and among those at least half of them, more than half of them. In fact, the person who was talking to the missionary or the anthropologist actually explained, we know about the afterlife because so and so went there on this particular date and he came back, came back to life, and he told us what he actually experienced.

Did a lot of Shamans use the fear of the afterlife or death to manipulate their population.

Did a lot of Shamans use the fear of the afterlife or death to manipulate their population.

I wouldn't say Shamans did that. I would say Shamans learn to negotiate the afterlife realm and the kind of experiences that people who have NDEs have. So I think essentially they were trying to replicate a near death experience without having to die, without having to be near death, and part of the reason for that was so they could benefit. They could have the same benefits that people who have NDEs have. People have nd they often come back transformed. People say they've become a more charitable person, a nicer person, They lose a fear of death, and then in the kind of or supernatural claims, they have healing powers, precognitive powers, to lepathy and whatever. So a shamanic journey to the other world which is controlled, it's a practice done within the culture. They can control that and then come back to life, whereas a near death experience, you know, it's pretty issy if the person's going to come back or not.

I wouldn't say Shamans did that. I would say Shamans learn to negotiate the afterlife realm and the kind of experiences that people who have NDEs have. So I think essentially they were trying to replicate a near death experience without having to die, without having to be near death, and part of the reason for that was so they could benefit. They could have the same benefits that people who have NDEs have. People have nd they often come back transformed. People say they've become a more charitable person, a nicer person, They lose a fear of death, and then in the kind of or supernatural claims, they have healing powers, precognitive powers, to lepathy and whatever. So a shamanic journey to the other world which is controlled, it's a practice done within the culture. They can control that and then come back to life, whereas a near death experience, you know, it's pretty issy if the person's going to come back or not.

Gregory, what does a near death experience mean to you today?

Gregory, what does a near death experience mean to you today?

That's a good question. Yeah, there's a lot of confusion about this term. It was invented by Raymond Moody in nineteen seventy five. He wrote one of the first books about near death experiences, called Life After Life, and he actually came up with that term. So some people they say, you know, I had a near death experience today. I was walking in the street and I almost got hit by a bus the end, you know, And that's not a near death experience. That's really just like somebody almost had a brush with death. The near death experience really is when somebody either temporarily dies or they're sick to the point of being almost dead, and they when they return to life, they talk about experiences that their consciousness had well di somebodied from their body that's lying there. So they will say, for example, that their soul left their body and they were able to see the operating tables in the cardiac war to say out a heart attack, or they're able to see the street with the car wreckage if they were in a car accident. And then they go to the other world and meet a being of white and relatives and all the rest of it. And then they're sent back to their body where they just wake up in their body. And that's what makes it a near death experience that they actually came back and survived it, and they have that conscious awareness of experiences that happened during the time they were temporarily dead or almost dead.

That's a good question. Yeah, there's a lot of confusion about this term. It was invented by Raymond Moody in nineteen seventy five. He wrote one of the first books about near death experiences, called Life After Life, and he actually came up with that term. So some people they say, you know, I had a near death experience today. I was walking in the street and I almost got hit by a bus the end, you know, And that's not a near death experience. That's really just like somebody almost had a brush with death. The near death experience really is when somebody either temporarily dies or they're sick to the point of being almost dead, and they when they return to life, they talk about experiences that their consciousness had well di somebodied from their body that's lying there. So they will say, for example, that their soul left their body and they were able to see the operating tables in the cardiac war to say out a heart attack, or they're able to see the street with the car wreckage if they were in a car accident. And then they go to the other world and meet a being of white and relatives and all the rest of it. And then they're sent back to their body where they just wake up in their body. And that's what makes it a near death experience that they actually came back and survived it, and they have that conscious awareness of experiences that happened during the time they were temporarily dead or almost dead.

I remember a story from one of our listeners, Greg years ago where he had a after death experience and he came back and told the doctor what he heard, and what he heard was the doctor and the rest of the staff laughing. Well, his body was on the gurney, talking about him almost dying, but they were making a joke out of it. They were having fun laughing about it. And he came back and told the doctor, why were you all laughing at me? And the doctor stopped, like what he said, why were you laughing at me? I was dying and I saw you, I was hovering above you, and you were all laughing, and just shut the doctor right up.

I remember a story from one of our listeners, Greg years ago where he had a after death experience and he came back and told the doctor what he heard, and what he heard was the doctor and the rest of the staff laughing. Well, his body was on the gurney, talking about him almost dying, but they were making a joke out of it. They were having fun laughing about it. And he came back and told the doctor, why were you all laughing at me? And the doctor stopped, like what he said, why were you laughing at me? I was dying and I saw you, I was hovering above you, and you were all laughing, and just shut the doctor right up.

I help that. Yeah, yeah, there are quite a few examples of things, like that famous case of Pam Reynolds, where he was a musician who had perfect pitch, and she was able to identify the particular notes that the bonesaw made that was drilling into her skull, and all kinds of what they call her ritical observation while she was out of her body in the operating room.

I help that. Yeah, yeah, there are quite a few examples of things, like that famous case of Pam Reynolds, where he was a musician who had perfect pitch, and she was able to identify the particular notes that the bonesaw made that was drilling into her skull, and all kinds of what they call her ritical observation while she was out of her body in the operating room.

How would you categorize your work different from most others?

How would you categorize your work different from most others?

I would say, because I'm coming at it not from medical science or psychology or even parapsychology. I'm coming at it from the history of religions basically. So my main question isn't so much whether in your death experience is our proof of an afterlife or not, but the ways in which near death experiences have been responded to in different religions around the world, and the way they've helped create religions around the world.

I would say, because I'm coming at it not from medical science or psychology or even parapsychology. I'm coming at it from the history of religions basically. So my main question isn't so much whether in your death experience is our proof of an afterlife or not, but the ways in which near death experiences have been responded to in different religions around the world, and the way they've helped create religions around the world.

How far back do you go?

How far back do you go?

The earliest I've looked at are ancient Egyptian pyramid texts and coffin texts, so pyramid texts about nineteen hundred BCD something like that, and then also ancient sumer early Mesopotamian texts, and that's going around roughly the same period, seventeen hundred something like that. And I should mention too that the in need, even of the Egyptians, as you said, really had a line on what the afterlife is going to be like. They were pretty obsessed with this death and the afterlife. There are no examples of actual new death experiences from ancient Egypt, and I don't think that's because they weren't having them. It's because they didn't have that context. They didn't have any genre of writing about NDEs. Basically, the only thing is writing were used for word priestly, religious ritual texts and accounting and documentary things. And by documenting you know, sales and divorce decrees and things like that, and then royal decrees, so there's no case of somebody sitting around writing, you know, dear diary, I had this near death experience today. But what's interesting is ancient sumer I think probably has the world's earliest near death experience. Everyone's probably heard of the epic of Gilgamesh, which is kind of entered popular culture quite a lot. There's a particular episode of that epic that didn't actually make the final cut, and it's when the king was called gilgames that was his Sumerian name earlier, and that is essentially an account of his near death experience. Who's lying on his deathbed, his sogoes to the other world and it meets the Sumerian sun god, whose name is YouTube, and this god with a panel of other gods who are also radiating light. They help him review his life and they figure out what he's what his faith's going to be. They decide to make him a judge in the other world any means of deceased relatives, and then he set back to his body. So that's you know, seven or eight typical near death experience episodes that are just in this one account.

The earliest I've looked at are ancient Egyptian pyramid texts and coffin texts, so pyramid texts about nineteen hundred BCD something like that, and then also ancient sumer early Mesopotamian texts, and that's going around roughly the same period, seventeen hundred something like that. And I should mention too that the in need, even of the Egyptians, as you said, really had a line on what the afterlife is going to be like. They were pretty obsessed with this death and the afterlife. There are no examples of actual new death experiences from ancient Egypt, and I don't think that's because they weren't having them. It's because they didn't have that context. They didn't have any genre of writing about NDEs. Basically, the only thing is writing were used for word priestly, religious ritual texts and accounting and documentary things. And by documenting you know, sales and divorce decrees and things like that, and then royal decrees, so there's no case of somebody sitting around writing, you know, dear diary, I had this near death experience today. But what's interesting is ancient sumer I think probably has the world's earliest near death experience. Everyone's probably heard of the epic of Gilgamesh, which is kind of entered popular culture quite a lot. There's a particular episode of that epic that didn't actually make the final cut, and it's when the king was called gilgames that was his Sumerian name earlier, and that is essentially an account of his near death experience. Who's lying on his deathbed, his sogoes to the other world and it meets the Sumerian sun god, whose name is YouTube, and this god with a panel of other gods who are also radiating light. They help him review his life and they figure out what he's what his faith's going to be. They decide to make him a judge in the other world any means of deceased relatives, and then he set back to his body. So that's you know, seven or eight typical near death experience episodes that are just in this one account.

What do we know about the afterlife today? Gregory that the ancients did not know then, or do they know as much as we do today.

What do we know about the afterlife today? Gregory that the ancients did not know then, or do they know as much as we do today.

I would be tempted to say they know more because really in contempt, Yeah, I think so. In contemporary Western culture there is a real resistance to anything that has to do with death, and that includes an afterlife. So I would say nine out of ten scientists or doctors we talk to are going to say, no such thing. This is ridiculous. I mean even my word.

I would be tempted to say they know more because really in contempt, Yeah, I think so. In contemporary Western culture there is a real resistance to anything that has to do with death, and that includes an afterlife. So I would say nine out of ten scientists or doctors we talk to are going to say, no such thing. This is ridiculous. I mean even my word.

What was that, when you're dead, you're dead?

What was that, when you're dead, you're dead?

Exactly? Yeah, I think that's the prevailing view in our society. And I even had a I was applying for a fellowship with National Endowment from the Arts or something, and one of the reviewer's comments was the entire project is based on nonsense, and that was it. So that's how what hostility and ridicule. There's still is a near death experience. And I'm not even saying, you know, necessarily arguing that they're really true. I'm just saying, this is an experience that people have around the world. So in that sense, I think for the most part, we have lost a lot of the knowledge and wisdom that ancient cultures had about after life and near death experience. If you look at the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which you mentioned earlier, it's almost like a roadmap of what to expect, and it reads very much like a near death experience.

Exactly? Yeah, I think that's the prevailing view in our society. And I even had a I was applying for a fellowship with National Endowment from the Arts or something, and one of the reviewer's comments was the entire project is based on nonsense, and that was it. So that's how what hostility and ridicule. There's still is a near death experience. And I'm not even saying, you know, necessarily arguing that they're really true. I'm just saying, this is an experience that people have around the world. So in that sense, I think for the most part, we have lost a lot of the knowledge and wisdom that ancient cultures had about after life and near death experience. If you look at the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which you mentioned earlier, it's almost like a roadmap of what to expect, and it reads very much like a near death experience.

How many of the ancients, Gregory used the substances to put them in that position, like ayahuasca or stuff like that.

How many of the ancients, Gregory used the substances to put them in that position, like ayahuasca or stuff like that.

Yeah, for some it's it's a little sketchy mysterious. We don't really know if the Egyptians were doing that. I think Sumerians had some opium, but as far as like connecting them to their actual ritual practices, it's a little sketchy. From these ancient times, definitely, the Metro American cultures did, the Maya and Aztec and other Nwa cultures of that that time and place. There was Chinese feminism for sure, and definitely in India they had the mysterious drug called soma, which was also the name of a god. So the drug was like the deified version of the god which they would consume and then have these, you know, otherworldly sorts of visions which were very much tied into after life realms. They would they would go and see these after life realms in these hallucinatory visions.

Yeah, for some it's it's a little sketchy mysterious. We don't really know if the Egyptians were doing that. I think Sumerians had some opium, but as far as like connecting them to their actual ritual practices, it's a little sketchy. From these ancient times, definitely, the Metro American cultures did, the Maya and Aztec and other Nwa cultures of that that time and place. There was Chinese feminism for sure, and definitely in India they had the mysterious drug called soma, which was also the name of a god. So the drug was like the deified version of the god which they would consume and then have these, you know, otherworldly sorts of visions which were very much tied into after life realms. They would they would go and see these after life realms in these hallucinatory visions.

What message would you like people to get from the book Near Death Experience and Ancient Civilizations.

What message would you like people to get from the book Near Death Experience and Ancient Civilizations.

The first one that comes to mind, I think, is that none of these religious beliefs after life beliefs or NDEs around the world say that if you did something wrong in this life you're going to suffer eternal damnation in the other life. That's just not something that I run across in NDEs. There's no binary heaven and hell. It's it's just a transcendent experience in one of maybe moving on to another realm or self development thing as you're said, back to Earth.

The first one that comes to mind, I think, is that none of these religious beliefs after life beliefs or NDEs around the world say that if you did something wrong in this life you're going to suffer eternal damnation in the other life. That's just not something that I run across in NDEs. There's no binary heaven and hell. It's it's just a transcendent experience in one of maybe moving on to another realm or self development thing as you're said, back to Earth.

Do they believe in God?

Do they believe in God?

Oh yeah, yeah, there's some pretty much always some kind of God or God's in these accounts.

Oh yeah, yeah, there's some pretty much always some kind of God or God's in these accounts.

Even with the ancients, for sure.

Even with the ancients, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What does that tell you?

What does that tell you?

I mean, like I said, you know, the being of light, which everyone talks about, I mean near death experience contemporary MDes. Often people will say I saw Jesus, or I saw the Buddha, or I saw Mohammad. In these ancient accounts, it's the sun god Ray or the sun God Utu or whatever shining radiant deity, you know, was relevant to that particular culture.

I mean, like I said, you know, the being of light, which everyone talks about, I mean near death experience contemporary MDes. Often people will say I saw Jesus, or I saw the Buddha, or I saw Mohammad. In these ancient accounts, it's the sun god Ray or the sun God Utu or whatever shining radiant deity, you know, was relevant to that particular culture.

How did you zero in on the civilizations that you got for your book?

How did you zero in on the civilizations that you got for your book?

These particular ones I decided to look at because they were, first of all, they all emerged kind of organically and independently as their own culture where they were. They It wasn't a case of like you know, the Romans growing out of Greek culture, or Judaism and Christianity growing out of the wider Mediterranean culture. They're really like these unique, not isolated, but cirely independent societies. And the reason I wanted to choose those types of civilizations was to minimize this idea, that of diffusion. They call it an anthropology, which is essentially one culture came up with a myth and then it spread from there throughout the world. So with the civilizations, I chose that it's just the the monsterbley did not happen. So the earliest is Egypt and sumer and there was no connection between them, like stanning out to China and Mesopotamia. You know, that just didn't happen chronologically or in any other way. So I thought that was important because finding these similarities cross culturally meant that they couldn't be explained in terms of one culture borrowing from another, so what could explain it? And that's why That's where I argue that the near death experience.

These particular ones I decided to look at because they were, first of all, they all emerged kind of organically and independently as their own culture where they were. They It wasn't a case of like you know, the Romans growing out of Greek culture, or Judaism and Christianity growing out of the wider Mediterranean culture. They're really like these unique, not isolated, but cirely independent societies. And the reason I wanted to choose those types of civilizations was to minimize this idea, that of diffusion. They call it an anthropology, which is essentially one culture came up with a myth and then it spread from there throughout the world. So with the civilizations, I chose that it's just the the monsterbley did not happen. So the earliest is Egypt and sumer and there was no connection between them, like stanning out to China and Mesopotamia. You know, that just didn't happen chronologically or in any other way. So I thought that was important because finding these similarities cross culturally meant that they couldn't be explained in terms of one culture borrowing from another, so what could explain it? And that's why That's where I argue that the near death experience.

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