The Best of Coast to Coast AMDemonic Warfare - Best of Coast to Coast AM - 11/18/24
George Noory and author Michael Lichens explore the efforts of Catholic exorcists to battle demons, what demons want when they try to possess a human soul, and recount stories of saints battling monsters, dragons and werewolves.
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And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you. Michael Lichin's back with us. Editor, writer, researcher based in Colorado, whose work has appeared in many spiritual publications. With a master's degree in divinity, Michael likes to explore the overlooked and strange parts of Catholic in Christian history, especially local Catholic history. He's the former editor of the Catholic Exchange. Has appeared on programs on Ewtnews, Our program and several other independent podcasts. His latest work is called The Weird Catholic Handbook. And of course, Michael, you're not knocking the religion, but you're talking about some strange stories. Welcome back.
Thank you so much for having me back, George. It's always a joy to join you.
Have you been I've been very well.
Thank you for asking. It's been a joy to have written this book and see some responses and I love sharing it.
And there are many weird things happening, aren't there.
I think life is always a little strange, So yes, there's always a few weird things happening in our ancestors saw it too.
You look at demons, monsters, ghost saints. How did you go after these stories?
Well, I've always had an interest in the odd and the unusual. I've been on the show before to talk about Father of Moore, who I also talk about in this book, and we I've always had a fascination with especially the supernatural or what some might call macabre, like bone churches and things like that. And I wanted to write a book that was a bit of a love letter to all these strange things when I was going through a difficult period in my life, and that's the result of this book.
Do Saints have much of a history of fighting demons and monsters?
They absolutely do. Of course demons. Saints have been fighting demons since the Apostolic times, many many famous saints. We have Saint Nicholas. Of course, we're coming up on the holiday season. He comes up December sixth and on the Eve of Saint Nicholas. You even see him teaming or fighting demons or monsters on the Eve of Saint Nicholas to remind people of the various deeds he did. And he was even also an exorcist. And then of course There's also Saint Patrick, who fought both monsters demonic birds at one point, had many even a few sea serpents.
Why don't we hear any news stories of new saints, Michael, These are all older, older saints.
Oh, they very much are. I do actually cover some newer saints. I talk about Padre Pio, who in many ways kind of sums up what it is to be that kind of strange mystical Catholicism. He was somebody who had many great miracles, including by location where he could be what I call him the saint who was in two places at once. He could be praying in his home on San Giovanni Rotundo, but meeting with his spiritual children in New York. And this was something many people witness so they still do happen, though I do write about a lot of old miracles.
Mostly he had the stigmata of Jesus too, did he not?
Did he did? He's probably one of the most besides Saint Francis of Assisi, the most famous person who received the stigmata, which for the listeners, that's when you have the five wounds of Christ bearing on your flesh.
Truly remarkable. The demons that are mentioned throughout the church. What are they are? They are they devils? Are they humans who weren't bad? What are they?
No, they are angels. They are the angels. And from the Catholic perspective, we have Saint Michael, the kind of prototypical monster fighter. He cast down Lucifer and a third of the angels from heaven down to the earth, and these became known as the demons. They have many of the same mobilities and the same potential as angels, but they've turned their will and now instead of serving God they say, non servio, I will not serve.
These monsters and demons. How bad were they?
Some were impressively bad. Several times saints were called in because no one could deal with the particular monster or the spirit. And so this was something Saint Nicholas was particularly known for. He, for example, rid a town of a demonically possessed tree by blessing it and taking an axe to it. But this tree had been demanding, had been like screeching at people, giving them nightmares. And then there's also Saint George, where we know from Christian tradition he fought a dragon, but before that dragon was fought by Saint George. It demanded tribute up to and including human sacrifice.
These demons, where do they come from? What do they want?
They seek? The best is probably Father More who said that they seek the destruction of human souls. They hate God and his creation, and they seek to ultimately destroy us, and that destruction is to take us away from God and his plans for us. And that's the simplest explanation. I can have. What they want can vary from time to time. And the worst part about them is their liars. Some exorcists have reported that demons will often even try to lie during the course of an exorcism.
They don't stop. Now, the old saints, were they exorcists at the same time.
Yes, As a matter of fact, it developed over time, but in the West it took a while before the exorcist was the official position it is now. Now every diocese is supposed to have an exorcist who answers to these calls. They're usually pretty secretive about it, or I should say discreet about everything, because this is a matter of privacy for a lot of people.
And so.
There are many ancient saints, all of the apostles. I mentioned Saint Patrick, who not only was an exorcist for people, he also exercised the whole of Ireland from Propatrick where he did battle with these demonic birds that would even block out the sun.
Well, the Catholic Church sure takes a strong position with exorcists and exorcis.
Oh yes, oh yes. A lot of people think it's not still in existent, but it is still going on. There's the International Association of Exus in Rome where they train priests from all over the world, and there's still exorcists working in dioceses all across the world.
Well with Michael Lichens's latest book is called The Weird Catholic Canbook. Tell us about the title, Michael.
Sure, Well, I kind of hit the idea of weird from a couple of places, mostly just how people usually respond to these stories, you know, about saints fighting monsters, tussling with demonic birds and things like that. They go, oh, that's weird, that's strange. But there's also kind of a play on it because weird is from its English Old English root means fate, and it was also used by Christian monks in early England to talk about God's providence. So the times that God was intervening in people's lives. They would call it weird. So I'm kind of playing around with it as well that I want to show the strange and the unusual that might get misunderstood, but I think there's a lot of beauty underneath.
How much truth do you think there was to many of these stories that are in your book.
I go back and forth on that. I'm a little more skeptical than some might be, but I'd like to say that our ancestors took these that to be true. But they also understood that there was a metaphor a meaning behind it, much like Christ's parables. They understood that when Saint George's defeating a dragon, it's like anytime Saint Michael defeating a dragon and things like that. It's symbolizing God's power coming in and taking over disorder and moving into grace and peace. And so they understood it both in a literal and a metaphorical sense, and so I tried to think of it in both. Two.
Give us a story or two from the book.
Sure well, let me go ahead and talk about Saint Patrick, because he was we'll have a little bit of darkness time. But they will also come up soon we all celebrate it. There is this wonderful story on pro Patrick that I mentioned. He went up there during lint, and this was around four forty one AD. When he got to the top of it, he wanted a fast pray dependence and he was suddenly assaulted by birds, and not just any birds. These were blackbirds that also had human speech, and so they would mock him and called out blasphemies to him, and this they did constantly. He would throw his bishop's crosier at them, they would puff into smoke and disappear. He'd fling holy water at them. They dispersed, but come right back. And it took him a long while, but finally he realized he had a sacred bell, and he raised up that sacred bell reined out three times. Bells are really important in Christianity. This was a calling to prayer, This was a calling to really take back what was to be an assaulted him on. And so with the ringing of the bell, the birds descended, the sun came out, and suddenly there were doves that were singing God's praise. And it's one of the most interesting stories. You can still see that bell, by the way, in the National Museum in Dublin.
How do you become a saint in the Catholic Church.
Well, the saint is anyone who has attained friendship with God and that's ultimately found when you're joined Him in heaven and perfect unity with Him. And so there's a number of saints we don't know, and they could be anyone. They could be you or me, anyone listening. I'm sure there's plenty of saints out there. I'm still a long ways off, but it could be any one of us. However, we know saints in the Catholic Church. The ones who are canonized, they get a church named after them, have pilgrimages, things like that. It's usually when there are three verified miracles posts mortem that can be attributed to the prayers of that saint.
Tell us Michael about the chapter on Christian werewolves.
Thank you. I love that section. There's a couple of interesting werewolf stories. Of course, throughout history we've been telling these kind of stories forever of people get turned into animals, particularly wolves. There's some versions. It's not quite a were wolf, it's dog headedness of Saint Christopher. He often depicted as a giant in the West, but in some places, particularly an icon in Mount Athos and a few Russian icons. He's depicted as having the head of a dog, and no one's quite sure why this is, but it's recorded that he had this head of the dog and that he was soon baptized accepted his Christian name Christopher, meaning Christ Bear, and depending on the story, he either helped Christ through wilderness or across the river. And then there is also the werewolves of Ossory, which are some Irish werewolves from the tenth century and they are fascinating story. It's a fascinating story of a priest who is traveling a route and he encounters wolves who can speak, and not only speak, they understand the Christian faith. And when he asked these wolves, you know, how are you able to speak? Wolves can't speak? They answered that they were transformed into wolves every seven years by a curse after they had barkereses at a saint and abbot, and thus they were doomed to do this every seven years take the shape of wolves. But they asked the priest for blessings, which he was able to do. And the wolves are still found in manuscripts, especially illuminated manuscripts, and it's just one of those interesting stories from the Middle Ages.
In terms of the saints, how many saints are they're out there, Michael, We don't know.
Officially, we don't know. We number somewhere like thirty nine thousand in our visual calendar, but there's many, many more. We just don't know.
How do they get certified.
They get certified initially by your local bishop who will certify various things, including the miracle, and that gets passed down to Rome, who ultimately have to decide it. They will often investigate any supposed miracles. They fully investigate the person's life, interview anyone who's surviving who might have known them, read any biographies that are available, and after a thorough investigation, if the miracles are found to be done, they're first declared blessed and then they've become after a few years, saints officially, and that's where you get the you know, Saint Joseph, Saint Mary and things like that.
Do we have any living saints?
Now, yes, we absolutely do. I have no clue. No, I think I know a few living saints. I can't. I have to admit I know a few living saints, especially among the hard working priests here in Denver. But I think we absolutely have saints hopefully listening to the show. Like I said, I'm a long long ways off. I have a lot to fix in my life. But I have no doubt that there's a few people out there who are on the path of sainthood.
Maybe they'll call into the program tonight, please, It's amazing. I mean, how come we don't hear too much about saints today as opposed to those from the past.
That's a good question.
And I think you would think they'd be heroes today they.
You know, And I think they are absolutely out there, especially recent ones. For example, the Catholic Church is going to canonize the first millennial saint, the first saint from a millennial generation, Carlo Acudas, and while not many people outside of Italy have heard of him, recently, a lot more people have heard of him, especially once he gets declared a saint. And this is someone he would be if you were alive. He'd be about seven years younger than me. And that's just like, I think we are still saints, and I think we'll still see, especially in the world struggles. Saints tend to come when we're needing them the most.
Michael tell Us why your book concentrates a lot on exorcisms.
Well, I think it's an important part of the Catholic Church that doesn't get a lot of focus. As we talked about, many saints, especially the popular Saints, were exorcists. It was part of their ministry. It was one of Christ's miracles, and it was a blessing he passed on to his apostles and so on, and so I think it's a fascinating ministry that I've enjoyed reading and learning about over the years, and all my work on bout Father and Moore and other exorcists, and so when I was writing this book, I definitely wanted to include some stories not only from their work and some of the more famous exorcists out there, but I also included their learning and saints for protection against evil.
Did you see the Russell Crowe movie of him playing the part of Gabriela morth I did.
I really liked how he did it. He got some parts of a morph because the mort had such an interesting dichotomy between he was a jokester, but he could also be very solemn and serious, and Russel grow is just so good at that.
He's in touch with me every once in a while, and I told him he did a great job of that. He was thrilled to death.
Oh that's good. He did a fantastic job.
The Pope Sexorcist. Mm hm. Did you ever come across any work by the late Father Malachi Martin?
I have. I first read him actually when I was like twenty one, but it was The Hossage to the Devil, and I've read a few things by him since. But he is a very interesting figure in the history of the Catholic Church.
What about ghost stories? How prevalent are they in Catholic history?
Well, as we know, ghost stories are kind of just part of the human experience. It seems like we've been telling them since civilization. There's a great lecture by someone from the British Museum on YouTube who talks about Assyrian ghost stories. So we've been telling them forever, and sure enough, the Catholic Church does, and we have a long history going back basically to the very early stages of Christianity with figures like Saint Augustine or Pope Gregory the Great and then Thomas Aquinas in the Middle Ages also talked about ghosts, and we also have some folklore from the Middle Ages that's preserved, telling us just kind of the roots of our modern ghost stories, but also a very Catholic ghost story, and that they affirm the traditions and faith of the Catholic Church.
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