Never lover. Good good, Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio's The Bag with Me Lindsy McCormick and my co host Rashaw Jennings, who is not with us this week due to holiday travel, and he held down the fort last week for me when I was suffering with the flu on my honeymoon, which those two words don't really combine well, but you know, it is life, and we're back and I really appreciate Rashad and David Meltzer taking care of business and talking about business in the process. But today we have an extra special guest that I am really excited for you guys to get to hear his take on so many different and things, from what's going on with the World Cup and Quitar to in I L deals, which has been a very hot topic of discussion, and there's no one who knows more about this than our guest today, Darren Heitner, who is an athlete lawyer to some of the biggest names in the industry, from Drew Rosenhouse, Draymond Green, Um, ju Juice Smith, Antonio Brown, Johnny manzel Terrell Owens. I could go on and on with the guys that you have worked for, Darren and I. I wish we had longer because I'd love to pick your brain about so many, so many things. But before we dive into talking about your thoughts on FIFA and Qatar and your perspective as a lawyer, I wanted to get your take on. I want to hear your story. I want to hear how you got here. Why why sports? Why sports law? Well, I'll provide the abridged version. UM. I've always been very interested in sports and laws separately, so to be able to combine my two passions was easily a dream job for me. And initially when I decided to go straight from undergrad to law school and I went to University of Florida for both, I had this impression that I was going to create a sports agency, which I did, build that up throughout my three years of law school, and then do that for the rest of my life. I quickly learned after those three years, and I'd say about a year afterwards, that it actually was not was not for me. Uh, the sleepless nights, the exorbitant amount of money to be spent in recruiting and maintaining these individuals, UM, how fickle they can oftentimes be, and and shifting from agent to agent, and ultimately decided to pivot and use my law degree to practice law, and instead of burning bridges with a lot of the people that I was competing against at the time, I maintained relationships and turned them into clients of mind. And it's actually been probably the best source of athlete clientele for me is having those agents and their agencies be my clients. And it's been a difficult balance to an extent, because working with so many different agents who are competing against each other, sometimes they may lack trust or be concerned, but I've tried to be very cautious in terms of maintaining confidentiality and respect and trust and it's worked out for roughly twelve years. Over twelve years now. So what are A lot of people have an idea of what a sports agent does, but what does a sports lawyer do? Yeah, so it's a great question. A sports agent is really responsible for procuring finding deals on the marketing side and then also negotiating professional team con tracts. And for the work that an agent does, the agent receives a commission when it's a team contract. Those commissions are oftentimes capped by the players associations that serve as the unions representing those players. On the marketing side, there is no cap uh and it's so from an agent's perspective, their source of revenue is really in the form of those percentage commissions. Where I come in is handled pretty much everything else. If there's a transaction that needs to be reviewed and negotiated and the legal language revised or drafted, I'm handling those contracts. If there's intellectual property in the form of trademarks, If if an athletes creating a brand and needs protection surrounding that, or is in the realm of creating content and needs protection on a copyright side, we're helping there. We're also enforcing when people are using athletes names, images and likenesses without permission, so that would be a right of publicity issue. And then a lot of litigation an arbitration. There's a lot of disputes that don't really reach the public because they primarily occur in confidential arbitration, and we handle a ton of that um. In fact, I have a couple of arbitration final hearings coming up before the close of November between agents and players or agencies against each other. So that's sort of the hardcore sports law that a lot of people don't don't appreciate. Do you think the industry is going to get to a place where people are just hiring Rashod, for example, did away with his agent negotiated his own contract. Do you think the industry is going to get to a place where people just hire sports lawyers and don't even need an agent. It's an excellent question, and it's come up from time to time, at least for as long as I've been covering the industry. I remember, going back many years ago, matt Elam coming out of the University of Florida, decided to go out on his own, but had the assistance of his brother abe Elam, who played in the year in the NFL for many years. Similarly, look at someone like Lamar Jackson, who right now obviously is in really the infancy of a of what should be a great career in the NFL with the Ravens thus far, and has been handling the negotiation process by himself, but it remains very rare. Most athletes feel much more comfortable having an agent and giving away of small percentage of the athletes revenues in exchange for the experience that the that the agent has, the connections to scouts and general managers, UM, and the capacity to really take an unbiased approach and not necessarily hear all the bad things that the teams say in these negotiations about the players. I think where we may eventually see more players decide to go at it on their own is on these rookie deals. Because they're largely slotted, there's not much negotiation to occur. But I've thought that for quite some time, and yet we still see a year after year, the vast made already of players decide to sign with agents. What would you say are some of the biggest challenges you face in this field? UM? I think honestly, it's it's more of a personal answer than anything. Being um, somebody who has a nine month old son and trying to make sure that I spend as much time as possible with him, and being a family man in general, even before my son was born, and really enjoying that quality time with my wife, with my parents, etcetera. It's challenging whether you're an agent or in any role in the sport. In the world of sports business, because there is no nine to five. You can't ever really turn off. And while I'm a little bit different than many sports agents because I will put I keep my phone on silent and I will not answer my phone when I go to sleep, I'm not going to allow that to interrupt me. Um. You know, I'm working many weekends, I'm working many nights and very early morning and so um it is a challenge to constantly make sure that I carve out time for my family because that's of penultimate importance. When I look at this list of the players you've worked with, there's some big, controversial UH players on here, and it has to take a special person to work with and to jael with those type of personalities. What what differentiates you from all the other lawyers out there. Well, I've been practicing for over twelve years and I started my own firm in June two fourteen, so roughly eight and a half years ago. And one of the biggest gaps that I saw in the legal profession is that one lawyers were accustomed to old ways and not willing to adjust to new technologies and how other businesses were quickly evolving, the legal practice seemed not to be so I was very involved with social media and Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram for many years. I was probably one of the first adopters as a lawyer of many of these platforms. But I think more importantly, when I surveyed the landscape, I noted that a common criticism of my profession is a lack of effective communication. That oftentimes it would take so many days for a lawyer to respond, if the lawyer even responds at all. So I made it a point and purpose in my practice to be extremely active in communication, making sure that I respond to everyone day of if I can um or even within fifteen minutes if I can um. And I think it's really important. Particularly there's an example today. I won't mention the athlete by name, but he texted, are you available, need to talk? It's urgent, And within five minutes I was able to put things aside and talk to that athlete. And I think, yeah, they demand it, and not many lawyers, if any others, are willing to provide that type of service, and I am. And I think, obviously, at the end of the day, what's most important as results and being an effective lawyer. But communication cannot get lost in the shuffle. I I get the love of law and then the love of sports, But why why the urge to work with some of As a journalist, I've worked with some of these athletes, and I know the size of the ego. Why why the desire to work with some of these athletes as opposed to go into a different type of law. Well, I think everybody deserves quality representation. And yes, there are athletes out there with magnanimous egos, and I've represented some of them, and I'm not going to mention them my name. I think some people can can take their fair guesses. And if I have any gray hair, it's probably due to a select few athletes that I've represented over the past twelve years. But I enjoy a lot of the actual substance and the subject matters that I'm looking into, whether it be the deal flow that i'm reviewing UM, and in particular the type of litigation and arbitration that we're handling that is very sports specific and outside your traditional case law that you may be able to look up online. UM. I like a lot of the characters that I do deal with. I love the personalities of these athletes. By by and large, again, there are there are those rare few that have been um not not the most enjoyable experiences, but you also learn from them, and I oftentimes even find that I'm not necessarily always providing legal counsel, but sometimes even sort of serving in the role of psychologists, even though I have no formal education. But I want to be there to help them in any way that I can. I mean, we hear so many horror stories about athletes getting poor representation, whether it be a lawyer and agent, a financial plan or accountants, cetera. And being part of the athletes business team, I like to take as much of a hands on approach as I can, as much as the athlete will let me, to best ensure that they're not one of these individuals who are written about for the wrong reasons, because they squander their finances, because they enter into the wrong deals. I can't tell you how many deals I've looked at, the vast majority of them actually where we look into the terms and I say, don't walk away from this deal, run from it, and without competent counsel. And I think a lot of athletes enter into the wrong deals. What what's an example of of terms you looked at where you said run. Yeah. I think the most common one is probably where the athlete has been asked, usually by a friend, a colleague, or even a service provider, to loan an amount of money um. And sometimes they come to me without an actual promissory note in place. Other times it looks like a second grade drafted it um. And then certain times the contract itself is fine, it's robust, it's specific, it's not ambiguous, but the deal itself doesn't make sense, or the terms, the the interest rate, maybe what's called you surius. It's outside the realm of what is even legal within a specific jurisdiction. And you know, again, a lot of athletes are probably enter into entering into these types of arrangements UM. But usually I think it's a better idea for an athlete to put his or her money into a conservative investment, whether it be let's say, a municipal bond or even a high yield stock, as opposed to lending money to your buddy who may not have the capital to repay you. It just doesn't make sense. So I entered into UH. I invested in a company called Gloss Lab, and we have a lot of big name athletes that have jumped on board with us, from Jared Goff to there's several of them. It seems like that's the sexy thing for athletes to want to invest in these companies, invest in these alcohol brands. Do you would you advise against that or do you think it's it's I mean, I guess it's different based on each company um and the experience of the company and the amount they want to invest. But is that a smart thing for your average athlete to invest in a company like that? Well, first of all, I'll preface my statement by saying I try my best to not get involved in actual financial diligence and recommending an athlete toward a specific investment. That's why an athlete really should have, as I mentioned, in a business team where there is also a reputable financial advisor who serves in that compath city to look at that deal flow before it even gets to me. But no, generally, I think it's it's actually wise for an athlete to diversify. And you say the average athlete, and that's really hard to necessarily peg, but somebody who has been in a league for a long time and has a significant amount of guaranteed income would actually be wise to not only look at those conservative investments and also probably put some money into the market and even keep some money in cash, but look at some private equity opportunities or investing at the seed stage, or more importantly, maybe at the Series A, B or C round of some of these companies that have shown an ability to raise capital, have shown revenues, have proven their concept. I mean, I've invested in in brands as well. One that I've invested alongside other athletes is not an alcoholic company, but a nonalcoholic brand called Athletic Brewing, and um, you know, they just raised a Series D round with Dr Pepper Cure as an investor. So you know, that's a good example of a success story. But if you're going to invest in, you know, non public companies that are still raising capital, that are still trying to prove their concept, you better be okay with the potential of losing your money in that investment. Obviously that's never the goal, that's never the intention, but you have to have that expectation that it could occur. Yeah, that's what my financial advisor always tells me, is if you're okay with losing it all, then let's invest it you're not and it's too much money to lose, then let's not do it. Uh I. I want to switch gears a little bit. The New York Times did a piece recently about how sex sells with the n I L. It had a gymnast from L. S U. The Cabinder Twins, who I know you've worked with and you are currently working with. Who are women's basketball players for University of Miami. Do your clients feel pressure to be sexier to make more money? No? And I'll be on the record with you. I think it was a pitiful piece. Um. We were contacted by the author at The New York Times to interview the Cavendar Twins. We rejected, and I'm very happy that we did. Even the premise of the piece was not fully explained, and I think Olivia done. The gymnast at L. S U was actually very surprised with the article as it came out because she had a different impression as to what the writer was looking to to publish. And I think anyone understands that in our world, in our society, to an extent, sex and good looks sells. But to try to put these individuals who are extremely talented, work their tails off, put together the content on a daily basis, are engaging with their fans. To say that it's only because they look good is the weakest form of journalism, and you know so, I think that it's very sad to see that type of peace get published. I think the reaction largely was exactly what I mentioned, which is that you know, this was a writer and perhaps a publication on a mission and maybe created the conclusion before even writing the story. Um, Olivia Donn has done a tremendous job. The cabinor Twins have done. I can't tell you how great they are to work with, how wonderful they are with brands. I mean, you see who I've worked with over the last twelve years. They are the easiest for brands to work with. They not only accomplish the deliverables, they go above and beyond. There's a reason why brands keep flocking to them over and over again. It's not just because they look good. It's ten to twenty different elements and that just maybe one of them. I I could relate to this so much being a female, a blonde female in the sports world, and as a journalist, I knew going into this industry that I was going to have to have a game plan and refute stereotypes, and I did that by relying heavily on radio and writing for different publications to build credibility. What do you think that their secret to success has been? You you mentioned a little of it right here with the how easy they are to work with, and obviously they're tremendous following that they've built up. And when you show up on set on time and you're easy to get along with, obviously that reputation gets around and more and more people want to work with you in the industry. Uh, what do you think that the capinor twins secret to success has been behind the scenes and and not just what we see on their TikTok and Instagram. I'll say two things other than obviously having a tremendous lawyer. Number one, Um, the easy answer to why they've been successful is going into July when and I'll basically turned on for all these athletes, they had already been spending the time to procure a very large following on Instagram and on TikTok in particular. And again it's not only because they look good, but what people don't really follow closely, is how engaging they are with their followers. If you comment on one of their posts, they comment back almost right away. They're liking it right almost right away. And so oftentimes when an athlete is publishing content and feels inauthentic, and for them it's real. There's a real connection that they're building with their followers, which adds them so much value to the brands that engage with them. The other thing that I think is really important is very early on, they came to me and asked who would be a good fit to serve as an agent, because they with everything that they're doing academics, athletics now also handling their social media, which is really another full time job, they didn't have the time to go out there and pound the pavement and speak to brands, and so I connected them with Average Sports and they have worked so incredibly hard to match the camera Twins not only with many brands, but brands that fit their interests, that had products and services that the counter Twins either were already using or tried and really enjoyed. And again, that authenticity bleeds through the content that's being published, and then we'll cause even more brands to latch on. So I think those two things combined have led to a lot of success for them. I'm jealous of their time management skills because in college, there's no way I would have We didn't even have social media. When I was in college. We had I think Facebook was on year one and we had my Space, which I think you and I heard about the same age. I don't know how. I don't know how. I don't know how they can't imagine when I was in college balancing school and athletics and social media, and now add the value they're gaining from it is a full time job, like you said, So, I'm very jealous of their time management skills. But the n i L seems a bit The n i L seems a bit like the wild West of sports business right now. And everyone's talking about what's happening right now, But what do you see in the future. What are what are the trends that people might not be aware of. Well, I think one thing that is slowly developing is now we have all the college athletes who are able to benefit off of their names, images and likenesses. Obviously, forever we've had professional athletes being able to earn money from endorsement deals, autographs, et cetera. But what we're starting to see trickle down too is the high school athlete. And going back to July one, when this was all of a sudden turned on for all college athletes, you had one state that allowed high school athletes to benefit from their n i L, that being the state of California. Now we're approaching roughly a year and a half after and I all turned on for college athletes, and we're at about twenty states that allow high school athletes these same rights. Interestingly, the Southeastern states, where some of the best talent in the country comes from for high school, they haven't yet turned that on, and there's been a lot of battles within those states, within the high school athletic associations as to what should be done. Do we resist change or do we follow the rest of the country. And if we resist change, will we see some of our best athletes, those five star athletes actually move out of the state while they're still in high school so that they can benefit from these opportunities. I think that's that's definitely an area to follow very closely going forward. One do the South Eastern states decide that they're willing to make the necessary change in my estimation, or do they stay stubborn and do we start to see some of that flow of the best athletes in those states moved to others where it's allowed. Why do you think I went to and I went to Auburn and SEC school as well. I heard that you went to Florida. Uh, why do you think the SEC is so hesitant to change? And to be clear, it's not the SEC, because it's not the actual colleges or the conferences who are making these determinations. In fact, it's the high school athletic associations. And I think there's, as I mentioned, the fear somewhat of the unknown and a resistance to change. You have such strong, storied programs. I mean, look in my backyard in South Florida you have St. Thomas, you have American Heritage, two of the strongest programs in the country for football. For baseball, you have IMG Academy in Bradenton, UM also nationally own. And I think there's a fear that you'll take high school sports and turn them pro as well and lose control of the athlete. That's probably the biggest fear I mean, we saw that fear among athletic directors at the collegiate level before they saw the writing on the wall, which was that this was going to change, whether they were in support of it or not. And now that's what we're starting to see at the high school level. I think in a lot of states where we have seen change, you don't have those storied programs, and they probably see believe that they can maybe even have get an an unfair or fair advantage over schools and other states in the meantime while they sit idle. H. Well, the big topic right now has been the World Cup and guitar. You are obviously a brilliant lawyer, and there's I mean, it seems like every outlet is covering this right now. Um, I just watched Jon Stewart. For those of us who have read subheadlines but haven't completely delved into the story, maybe because we're Americans who don't always follow soccer, how would you summarize what's happening with the World Cup and guitar thus far? Well, I would summarize it with a Latin phrase which is caveat emptor, and in essence, what it means is you've made your bed now you have to sleep in it. You know, when when you're a purchaser of something, you bear the risk of doing the diligence ahead of time. And I don't know what people necessarily thought going into a World Cup in Qatar, where obviously there have been a lot of geopolitical and societal issues over in the past, at least issues or positions on issues that typically do not align with what we believe in in Western thought in the Western world, And so I think you're starting to see that play out, and perhaps some media members decided to cover it while others turn their heads. Interestingly, the biggest issue thus far, at least in terms of what the media is covering, is probably this ban on alcohol consumption at the stadiums and how that affects and Heuser Bush and Budweiser in particular, which paid upwards I think of seventy five million dollars for sponsorship rights with FIFA. Now understand it's different. Budweiser didn't pay the Nation of Qatar. Budweiser paid FIFA, and FIFA likely provided Budweiser with this guarantee of access and exclusivity UM, which is quite interesting because Budweiser only days before kickop, before the start of the World Cup, had the rug pulled from beneath it, and is dealing with the consequences of that now. So um, but again caveat emptor you you kind of understood the situation you were getting yourself in. Perhaps you could have taken a break from this World Cup, but you decided to move forward anyway, and likely because you've had a very long standing, strong relationship with FIFA and to take a break wouldn't have made sense even with this band. So if you're Budweiser and they hire you today, do you I've heard some rumblings, I've seen some headlines, But have they sued? Have they not sued? Do you turn around? You sue FIFA? Not necessarily you have to. You don't always sue a breaching party. Again, assuming that there is a breach of the contract in itself and none of us have seen the contractual language, and maybe FIFA even shielded itself in case something like this occurred. But assuming that they did not and there is a breach, you don't always sue a breaching party, especially one that you've had a longstanding relationship within, one that you want to continue to have a relationship within the future. I would say it's similar to an athlete having an endorsement deal, let's say with a Nike and the athlete violating immorals clause, which let's say the athlete was found to have been driving drunk but didn't kill anyone, but but got a d u I. There's a possibility that the brand decides under the clause in the contract to terminate. But what if it's Tiger Woods? Do you terminate over that or not? And it comes down oftentimes to an economic decision as opposed to a legal decision, even though it may be a slam dunk case. Perhaps you don't enforce the provision in the contract, and that maybe what's happening behind the scenes right now, Budweiser saying, can we turn this calamity into a success story and we've already seen it start to market in creative ways surrounding this and save our relationship with FIFA as opposed to destroying it by selling What do you think the implications are going forward for FIFA if any is there anyone that's going to hold them accountable? Well, that's a that's a tough question because I'm not certain who outside of Budweiser would be in a position to hold FIFA accountable for any breaches of contract. And as I mentioned, I'm not even completely certain that Budweiser has a slam done case against FIFA because I'd hate to speculate without seeing the actual language in the contract. So to your question, as we sit here today, I'm unaware as to whether anyone has any rights or will enforce them against FIFA. Okay, thank you so much, Darren. This has just been I've been wanting to ask you all these questions for a week now, and there's so many things in the news and you don't know what to believe and not because every media outlet is getting involved. And I am just really grateful that you joined us today on Sports Illustrated and my Heart Radio as the Bag because this was such a fun interview and I wish R. Sean was here to hear it. But we'll have to have you back again. I'm sure there will be many many more articles on n I L and a lot of fun hot button topics that that emerged that you will I will love to pick your brain on. So thank you so much for joining us. I'd be happy to come back. Thank you. Thank you guys for listening to Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio is the bag. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast from. Thank you for listening, and thank you to our special guest, Darren Heitner. Follow us on Instagram at Rashaw Jennings and at Lindsay McCormick sport Arts and we'll be back next week with Rashad. We wish you a very happy Thanksgiving, Spend lots of time with your loved ones, and we'll see you guys next week

Never lover. Good good, Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio's The Bag with Me Lindsy McCormick and my co host Rashaw Jennings, who is not with us this week due to holiday travel, and he held down the fort last week for me when I was suffering with the flu on my honeymoon, which those two words don't really combine well, but you know, it is life, and we're back and I really appreciate Rashad and David Meltzer taking care of business and talking about business in the process. But today we have an extra special guest that I am really excited for you guys to get to hear his take on so many different and things, from what's going on with the World Cup and Quitar to in I L deals, which has been a very hot topic of discussion, and there's no one who knows more about this than our guest today, Darren Heitner, who is an athlete lawyer to some of the biggest names in the industry, from Drew Rosenhouse, Draymond Green, Um, ju Juice Smith, Antonio Brown, Johnny manzel Terrell Owens. I could go on and on with the guys that you have worked for, Darren and I. I wish we had longer because I'd love to pick your brain about so many, so many things. But before we dive into talking about your thoughts on FIFA and Qatar and your perspective as a lawyer, I wanted to get your take on. I want to hear your story. I want to hear how you got here. Why why sports? Why sports law? Well, I'll provide the abridged version. UM. I've always been very interested in sports and laws separately, so to be able to combine my two passions was easily a dream job for me. And initially when I decided to go straight from undergrad to law school and I went to University of Florida for both, I had this impression that I was going to create a sports agency, which I did, build that up throughout my three years of law school, and then do that for the rest of my life. I quickly learned after those three years, and I'd say about a year afterwards, that it actually was not was not for me. Uh, the sleepless nights, the exorbitant amount of money to be spent in recruiting and maintaining these individuals, UM, how fickle they can oftentimes be, and and shifting from agent to agent, and ultimately decided to pivot and use my law degree to practice law, and instead of burning bridges with a lot of the people that I was competing against at the time, I maintained relationships and turned them into clients of mind. And it's actually been probably the best source of athlete clientele for me is having those agents and their agencies be my clients. And it's been a difficult balance to an extent, because working with so many different agents who are competing against each other, sometimes they may lack trust or be concerned, but I've tried to be very cautious in terms of maintaining confidentiality and respect and trust and it's worked out for roughly twelve years. Over twelve years now. So what are A lot of people have an idea of what a sports agent does, but what does a sports lawyer do? Yeah, so it's a great question. A sports agent is really responsible for procuring finding deals on the marketing side and then also negotiating professional team con tracts. And for the work that an agent does, the agent receives a commission when it's a team contract. Those commissions are oftentimes capped by the players associations that serve as the unions representing those players. On the marketing side, there is no cap uh and it's so from an agent's perspective, their source of revenue is really in the form of those percentage commissions. Where I come in is handled pretty much everything else. If there's a transaction that needs to be reviewed and negotiated and the legal language revised or drafted, I'm handling those contracts. If there's intellectual property in the form of trademarks, If if an athletes creating a brand and needs protection surrounding that, or is in the realm of creating content and needs protection on a copyright side, we're helping there. We're also enforcing when people are using athletes names, images and likenesses without permission, so that would be a right of publicity issue. And then a lot of litigation an arbitration. There's a lot of disputes that don't really reach the public because they primarily occur in confidential arbitration, and we handle a ton of that um. In fact, I have a couple of arbitration final hearings coming up before the close of November between agents and players or agencies against each other. So that's sort of the hardcore sports law that a lot of people don't don't appreciate. Do you think the industry is going to get to a place where people are just hiring Rashod, for example, did away with his agent negotiated his own contract. Do you think the industry is going to get to a place where people just hire sports lawyers and don't even need an agent. It's an excellent question, and it's come up from time to time, at least for as long as I've been covering the industry. I remember, going back many years ago, matt Elam coming out of the University of Florida, decided to go out on his own, but had the assistance of his brother abe Elam, who played in the year in the NFL for many years. Similarly, look at someone like Lamar Jackson, who right now obviously is in really the infancy of a of what should be a great career in the NFL with the Ravens thus far, and has been handling the negotiation process by himself, but it remains very rare. Most athletes feel much more comfortable having an agent and giving away of small percentage of the athletes revenues in exchange for the experience that the that the agent has, the connections to scouts and general managers, UM, and the capacity to really take an unbiased approach and not necessarily hear all the bad things that the teams say in these negotiations about the players. I think where we may eventually see more players decide to go at it on their own is on these rookie deals. Because they're largely slotted, there's not much negotiation to occur. But I've thought that for quite some time, and yet we still see a year after year, the vast made already of players decide to sign with agents. What would you say are some of the biggest challenges you face in this field? UM? I think honestly, it's it's more of a personal answer than anything. Being um, somebody who has a nine month old son and trying to make sure that I spend as much time as possible with him, and being a family man in general, even before my son was born, and really enjoying that quality time with my wife, with my parents, etcetera. It's challenging whether you're an agent or in any role in the sport. In the world of sports business, because there is no nine to five. You can't ever really turn off. And while I'm a little bit different than many sports agents because I will put I keep my phone on silent and I will not answer my phone when I go to sleep, I'm not going to allow that to interrupt me. Um. You know, I'm working many weekends, I'm working many nights and very early morning and so um it is a challenge to constantly make sure that I carve out time for my family because that's of penultimate importance. When I look at this list of the players you've worked with, there's some big, controversial UH players on here, and it has to take a special person to work with and to jael with those type of personalities. What what differentiates you from all the other lawyers out there. Well, I've been practicing for over twelve years and I started my own firm in June two fourteen, so roughly eight and a half years ago. And one of the biggest gaps that I saw in the legal profession is that one lawyers were accustomed to old ways and not willing to adjust to new technologies and how other businesses were quickly evolving, the legal practice seemed not to be so I was very involved with social media and Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram for many years. I was probably one of the first adopters as a lawyer of many of these platforms. But I think more importantly, when I surveyed the landscape, I noted that a common criticism of my profession is a lack of effective communication. That oftentimes it would take so many days for a lawyer to respond, if the lawyer even responds at all. So I made it a point and purpose in my practice to be extremely active in communication, making sure that I respond to everyone day of if I can um or even within fifteen minutes if I can um. And I think it's really important. Particularly there's an example today. I won't mention the athlete by name, but he texted, are you available, need to talk? It's urgent, And within five minutes I was able to put things aside and talk to that athlete. And I think, yeah, they demand it, and not many lawyers, if any others, are willing to provide that type of service, and I am. And I think, obviously, at the end of the day, what's most important as results and being an effective lawyer. But communication cannot get lost in the shuffle. I I get the love of law and then the love of sports, But why why the urge to work with some of As a journalist, I've worked with some of these athletes, and I know the size of the ego. Why why the desire to work with some of these athletes as opposed to go into a different type of law. Well, I think everybody deserves quality representation. And yes, there are athletes out there with magnanimous egos, and I've represented some of them, and I'm not going to mention them my name. I think some people can can take their fair guesses. And if I have any gray hair, it's probably due to a select few athletes that I've represented over the past twelve years. But I enjoy a lot of the actual substance and the subject matters that I'm looking into, whether it be the deal flow that i'm reviewing UM, and in particular the type of litigation and arbitration that we're handling that is very sports specific and outside your traditional case law that you may be able to look up online. UM. I like a lot of the characters that I do deal with. I love the personalities of these athletes. By by and large, again, there are there are those rare few that have been um not not the most enjoyable experiences, but you also learn from them, and I oftentimes even find that I'm not necessarily always providing legal counsel, but sometimes even sort of serving in the role of psychologists, even though I have no formal education. But I want to be there to help them in any way that I can. I mean, we hear so many horror stories about athletes getting poor representation, whether it be a lawyer and agent, a financial plan or accountants, cetera. And being part of the athletes business team, I like to take as much of a hands on approach as I can, as much as the athlete will let me, to best ensure that they're not one of these individuals who are written about for the wrong reasons, because they squander their finances, because they enter into the wrong deals. I can't tell you how many deals I've looked at, the vast majority of them actually where we look into the terms and I say, don't walk away from this deal, run from it, and without competent counsel. And I think a lot of athletes enter into the wrong deals. What what's an example of of terms you looked at where you said run. Yeah. I think the most common one is probably where the athlete has been asked, usually by a friend, a colleague, or even a service provider, to loan an amount of money um. And sometimes they come to me without an actual promissory note in place. Other times it looks like a second grade drafted it um. And then certain times the contract itself is fine, it's robust, it's specific, it's not ambiguous, but the deal itself doesn't make sense, or the terms, the the interest rate, maybe what's called you surius. It's outside the realm of what is even legal within a specific jurisdiction. And you know, again, a lot of athletes are probably enter into entering into these types of arrangements UM. But usually I think it's a better idea for an athlete to put his or her money into a conservative investment, whether it be let's say, a municipal bond or even a high yield stock, as opposed to lending money to your buddy who may not have the capital to repay you. It just doesn't make sense. So I entered into UH. I invested in a company called Gloss Lab, and we have a lot of big name athletes that have jumped on board with us, from Jared Goff to there's several of them. It seems like that's the sexy thing for athletes to want to invest in these companies, invest in these alcohol brands. Do you would you advise against that or do you think it's it's I mean, I guess it's different based on each company um and the experience of the company and the amount they want to invest. But is that a smart thing for your average athlete to invest in a company like that? Well, first of all, I'll preface my statement by saying I try my best to not get involved in actual financial diligence and recommending an athlete toward a specific investment. That's why an athlete really should have, as I mentioned, in a business team where there is also a reputable financial advisor who serves in that compath city to look at that deal flow before it even gets to me. But no, generally, I think it's it's actually wise for an athlete to diversify. And you say the average athlete, and that's really hard to necessarily peg, but somebody who has been in a league for a long time and has a significant amount of guaranteed income would actually be wise to not only look at those conservative investments and also probably put some money into the market and even keep some money in cash, but look at some private equity opportunities or investing at the seed stage, or more importantly, maybe at the Series A, B or C round of some of these companies that have shown an ability to raise capital, have shown revenues, have proven their concept. I mean, I've invested in in brands as well. One that I've invested alongside other athletes is not an alcoholic company, but a nonalcoholic brand called Athletic Brewing, and um, you know, they just raised a Series D round with Dr Pepper Cure as an investor. So you know, that's a good example of a success story. But if you're going to invest in, you know, non public companies that are still raising capital, that are still trying to prove their concept, you better be okay with the potential of losing your money in that investment. Obviously that's never the goal, that's never the intention, but you have to have that expectation that it could occur. Yeah, that's what my financial advisor always tells me, is if you're okay with losing it all, then let's invest it you're not and it's too much money to lose, then let's not do it. Uh I. I want to switch gears a little bit. The New York Times did a piece recently about how sex sells with the n I L. It had a gymnast from L. S U. The Cabinder Twins, who I know you've worked with and you are currently working with. Who are women's basketball players for University of Miami. Do your clients feel pressure to be sexier to make more money? No? And I'll be on the record with you. I think it was a pitiful piece. Um. We were contacted by the author at The New York Times to interview the Cavendar Twins. We rejected, and I'm very happy that we did. Even the premise of the piece was not fully explained, and I think Olivia done. The gymnast at L. S U was actually very surprised with the article as it came out because she had a different impression as to what the writer was looking to to publish. And I think anyone understands that in our world, in our society, to an extent, sex and good looks sells. But to try to put these individuals who are extremely talented, work their tails off, put together the content on a daily basis, are engaging with their fans. To say that it's only because they look good is the weakest form of journalism, and you know so, I think that it's very sad to see that type of peace get published. I think the reaction largely was exactly what I mentioned, which is that you know, this was a writer and perhaps a publication on a mission and maybe created the conclusion before even writing the story. Um, Olivia Donn has done a tremendous job. The cabinor Twins have done. I can't tell you how great they are to work with, how wonderful they are with brands. I mean, you see who I've worked with over the last twelve years. They are the easiest for brands to work with. They not only accomplish the deliverables, they go above and beyond. There's a reason why brands keep flocking to them over and over again. It's not just because they look good. It's ten to twenty different elements and that just maybe one of them. I I could relate to this so much being a female, a blonde female in the sports world, and as a journalist, I knew going into this industry that I was going to have to have a game plan and refute stereotypes, and I did that by relying heavily on radio and writing for different publications to build credibility. What do you think that their secret to success has been? You you mentioned a little of it right here with the how easy they are to work with, and obviously they're tremendous following that they've built up. And when you show up on set on time and you're easy to get along with, obviously that reputation gets around and more and more people want to work with you in the industry. Uh, what do you think that the capinor twins secret to success has been behind the scenes and and not just what we see on their TikTok and Instagram. I'll say two things other than obviously having a tremendous lawyer. Number one, Um, the easy answer to why they've been successful is going into July when and I'll basically turned on for all these athletes, they had already been spending the time to procure a very large following on Instagram and on TikTok in particular. And again it's not only because they look good, but what people don't really follow closely, is how engaging they are with their followers. If you comment on one of their posts, they comment back almost right away. They're liking it right almost right away. And so oftentimes when an athlete is publishing content and feels inauthentic, and for them it's real. There's a real connection that they're building with their followers, which adds them so much value to the brands that engage with them. The other thing that I think is really important is very early on, they came to me and asked who would be a good fit to serve as an agent, because they with everything that they're doing academics, athletics now also handling their social media, which is really another full time job, they didn't have the time to go out there and pound the pavement and speak to brands, and so I connected them with Average Sports and they have worked so incredibly hard to match the camera Twins not only with many brands, but brands that fit their interests, that had products and services that the counter Twins either were already using or tried and really enjoyed. And again, that authenticity bleeds through the content that's being published, and then we'll cause even more brands to latch on. So I think those two things combined have led to a lot of success for them. I'm jealous of their time management skills because in college, there's no way I would have We didn't even have social media. When I was in college. We had I think Facebook was on year one and we had my Space, which I think you and I heard about the same age. I don't know how. I don't know how. I don't know how they can't imagine when I was in college balancing school and athletics and social media, and now add the value they're gaining from it is a full time job, like you said, So, I'm very jealous of their time management skills. But the n i L seems a bit The n i L seems a bit like the wild West of sports business right now. And everyone's talking about what's happening right now, But what do you see in the future. What are what are the trends that people might not be aware of. Well, I think one thing that is slowly developing is now we have all the college athletes who are able to benefit off of their names, images and likenesses. Obviously, forever we've had professional athletes being able to earn money from endorsement deals, autographs, et cetera. But what we're starting to see trickle down too is the high school athlete. And going back to July one, when this was all of a sudden turned on for all college athletes, you had one state that allowed high school athletes to benefit from their n i L, that being the state of California. Now we're approaching roughly a year and a half after and I all turned on for college athletes, and we're at about twenty states that allow high school athletes these same rights. Interestingly, the Southeastern states, where some of the best talent in the country comes from for high school, they haven't yet turned that on, and there's been a lot of battles within those states, within the high school athletic associations as to what should be done. Do we resist change or do we follow the rest of the country. And if we resist change, will we see some of our best athletes, those five star athletes actually move out of the state while they're still in high school so that they can benefit from these opportunities. I think that's that's definitely an area to follow very closely going forward. One do the South Eastern states decide that they're willing to make the necessary change in my estimation, or do they stay stubborn and do we start to see some of that flow of the best athletes in those states moved to others where it's allowed. Why do you think I went to and I went to Auburn and SEC school as well. I heard that you went to Florida. Uh, why do you think the SEC is so hesitant to change? And to be clear, it's not the SEC, because it's not the actual colleges or the conferences who are making these determinations. In fact, it's the high school athletic associations. And I think there's, as I mentioned, the fear somewhat of the unknown and a resistance to change. You have such strong, storied programs. I mean, look in my backyard in South Florida you have St. Thomas, you have American Heritage, two of the strongest programs in the country for football. For baseball, you have IMG Academy in Bradenton, UM also nationally own. And I think there's a fear that you'll take high school sports and turn them pro as well and lose control of the athlete. That's probably the biggest fear I mean, we saw that fear among athletic directors at the collegiate level before they saw the writing on the wall, which was that this was going to change, whether they were in support of it or not. And now that's what we're starting to see at the high school level. I think in a lot of states where we have seen change, you don't have those storied programs, and they probably see believe that they can maybe even have get an an unfair or fair advantage over schools and other states in the meantime while they sit idle. H. Well, the big topic right now has been the World Cup and guitar. You are obviously a brilliant lawyer, and there's I mean, it seems like every outlet is covering this right now. Um, I just watched Jon Stewart. For those of us who have read subheadlines but haven't completely delved into the story, maybe because we're Americans who don't always follow soccer, how would you summarize what's happening with the World Cup and guitar thus far? Well, I would summarize it with a Latin phrase which is caveat emptor, and in essence, what it means is you've made your bed now you have to sleep in it. You know, when when you're a purchaser of something, you bear the risk of doing the diligence ahead of time. And I don't know what people necessarily thought going into a World Cup in Qatar, where obviously there have been a lot of geopolitical and societal issues over in the past, at least issues or positions on issues that typically do not align with what we believe in in Western thought in the Western world, And so I think you're starting to see that play out, and perhaps some media members decided to cover it while others turn their heads. Interestingly, the biggest issue thus far, at least in terms of what the media is covering, is probably this ban on alcohol consumption at the stadiums and how that affects and Heuser Bush and Budweiser in particular, which paid upwards I think of seventy five million dollars for sponsorship rights with FIFA. Now understand it's different. Budweiser didn't pay the Nation of Qatar. Budweiser paid FIFA, and FIFA likely provided Budweiser with this guarantee of access and exclusivity UM, which is quite interesting because Budweiser only days before kickop, before the start of the World Cup, had the rug pulled from beneath it, and is dealing with the consequences of that now. So um, but again caveat emptor you you kind of understood the situation you were getting yourself in. Perhaps you could have taken a break from this World Cup, but you decided to move forward anyway, and likely because you've had a very long standing, strong relationship with FIFA and to take a break wouldn't have made sense even with this band. So if you're Budweiser and they hire you today, do you I've heard some rumblings, I've seen some headlines, But have they sued? Have they not sued? Do you turn around? You sue FIFA? Not necessarily you have to. You don't always sue a breaching party. Again, assuming that there is a breach of the contract in itself and none of us have seen the contractual language, and maybe FIFA even shielded itself in case something like this occurred. But assuming that they did not and there is a breach, you don't always sue a breaching party, especially one that you've had a longstanding relationship within, one that you want to continue to have a relationship within the future. I would say it's similar to an athlete having an endorsement deal, let's say with a Nike and the athlete violating immorals clause, which let's say the athlete was found to have been driving drunk but didn't kill anyone, but but got a d u I. There's a possibility that the brand decides under the clause in the contract to terminate. But what if it's Tiger Woods? Do you terminate over that or not? And it comes down oftentimes to an economic decision as opposed to a legal decision, even though it may be a slam dunk case. Perhaps you don't enforce the provision in the contract, and that maybe what's happening behind the scenes right now, Budweiser saying, can we turn this calamity into a success story and we've already seen it start to market in creative ways surrounding this and save our relationship with FIFA as opposed to destroying it by selling What do you think the implications are going forward for FIFA if any is there anyone that's going to hold them accountable? Well, that's a that's a tough question because I'm not certain who outside of Budweiser would be in a position to hold FIFA accountable for any breaches of contract. And as I mentioned, I'm not even completely certain that Budweiser has a slam done case against FIFA because I'd hate to speculate without seeing the actual language in the contract. So to your question, as we sit here today, I'm unaware as to whether anyone has any rights or will enforce them against FIFA. Okay, thank you so much, Darren. This has just been I've been wanting to ask you all these questions for a week now, and there's so many things in the news and you don't know what to believe and not because every media outlet is getting involved. And I am just really grateful that you joined us today on Sports Illustrated and my Heart Radio as the Bag because this was such a fun interview and I wish R. Sean was here to hear it. But we'll have to have you back again. I'm sure there will be many many more articles on n I L and a lot of fun hot button topics that that emerged that you will I will love to pick your brain on. So thank you so much for joining us. I'd be happy to come back. Thank you. Thank you guys for listening to Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio is the bag. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast from. Thank you for listening, and thank you to our special guest, Darren Heitner. Follow us on Instagram at Rashaw Jennings and at Lindsay McCormick sport Arts and we'll be back next week with Rashad. We wish you a very happy Thanksgiving, Spend lots of time with your loved ones, and we'll see you guys next week