Associate Professor Bastien Llamas

Musical Pilgrimage

Adelaide’s scientific community wades into the global conversation about de-extinction as Associate Professor Bastien Llamas from the University of Adelaide’s School of Biological Sciences and the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA brings cool-headed expertise to recent claims about dire wolves being “brought back from extinction.” What began as scientific curiosity became urgently relevant when Steve overheard his teenage daughters excitedly discussing how “wolves aren’t extinct anymore and mammoths will be back soon” – highlighting the real-world consequences of misunderstood science.

The SA Drink Of The Week segment isn’t included in this episode, as our focus remains squarely on the fascinating scientific ground being covered, from the definition of true extinction to the uncomfortable realities of dropping long-gone predators into modern ecosystems.

In the Musical Pilgrimage, we’re treated to Professor Flint’s Rumble Rumble, a song about the Permian extinction that carries a message of both disaster and hope – perfectly complementing our exploration of extinction, science communication, and the resilience of nature given sufficient time.

You can navigate episodes using chapter markers in your podcast app. Not a fan of one segment? You can click next to jump to the next chapter in the show. We’re here to serve!

The Adelaide Show Podcast: Awarded Silver for Best Interview Podcast in Australia at the 2021 Australian Podcast Awards and named as Finalist for Best News and Current Affairs Podcast in the 2018 Australian Podcast Awards.

And please consider becoming part of our podcast by joining our Inner Circle. It’s an email list. Join it and you might get an email on a Sunday or Monday seeking question ideas, guest ideas and requests for other bits of feedback about YOUR podcast, The Adelaide Show. Email us directly and we’ll add you to the list: podcast@theadelaideshow.com.au

If you enjoy the show, please leave us a 5-star review in iTunes or other podcast sites, or buy some great merch from our Red Bubble store – The Adelaide Show Shop. We’d greatly appreciate it.

And please talk about us and share our episodes on social media, it really helps build our community. Oh, and here’s our index of all episode in one concise
page.

Running Sheet: Making De-extinction Claims Extinct

00:00:00 Intro

Introduction

00:00:00 SA Drink Of The Week

No South Australian Drink Of The Week, this week.

00:02:52 Assoc. Prof. Bastien Llamas

Winter isn’t just coming, apparently it arrived in October last year when Colossal Biosciences announced they’d successfully “de-extincted” the dire wolf after a 10,000-year absence. Now, for anyone watching the news or scrolling through social media lately, you might think you’ve stepped into an episode of Game of Thrones—and the connection is no coincidence, with George R.R. Martin himself serving as a “cultural adviser” to this company. I first caught wind of this story through our good mate Michael Mills, better known to many South Aussie school kids as Professor Flint, who was absolutely scathing about these claims. And I’ll admit, I thought exploring this topic might be a bit of scientific curiosity until I was driving my teenage daughters recently, and overheard them chatting excitedly about how “cool it is that wolves aren’t extinct anymore” and that “mammoths will be back soon too.” That’s when I realised we needed some cool-headed expertise on the subject.

With us today is Associate Professor Bastien Llamas from the University of Adelaide’s School of Biological Sciences and the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA. Bastien’s work on ancient DNA and human adaptation to environmental and cultural stressors puts him in the perfect position to help us understand what’s actually happening with these de-extinction claims. Welcome.

The interview opens amid the cultural echoes of Game of Thrones, with Steve noting how Colossal Biosciences has seemingly found a “middle ground” in the stark binary of winning or dying in the game of thrones – by claiming to resurrect dire wolves after a 10,000-year absence. This connection is no coincidence, with George R.R. Martin himself serving as a cultural advisor to the company.

“If it looks like a dire wolf and it howls like a dire wolf, it’s… well, a dire wolf for the sake of PR purposes,” Steve observes, setting the stage for Bastien to methodically dismantle the scientific validity of these claims. The discussion begins with fundamentals, as Bastien explains what extinction actually means from a scientific perspective: “The extinction process is really the total disappearance of a particular species from the surface of the earth.”

The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Bastien addresses the technological impossibility of true de-extinction: “To de-extinct means literally bringing back individuals from that very species to life… if that extinction happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, it means that we would need to have intact cells from these particular individuals. And through some cloning technologies, be able to create an embryo… Now we’re talking about science fiction.”

When pressed on the ecological reality of reintroducing extinct species, Bastien paints a vivid picture of the challenges: “If a species got extinct in the first place, it’s very likely because there were some factors — environmental change or human overkill — that means the world has slowly changed to the point where that species was not adapted to their environment.” His specific example about dire wolves resonates with practical concerns: “A nice big cow would probably be a great prey for that wolf. And I am just waiting for the reaction of the farmers.”

The scientific breakdown of Colossal’s claims is particularly enlightening, with Bastien revealing that dire wolves and grey wolves split evolutionarily 5.7 million years ago: “For 5.7 million years, they evolved differently. Dire wolf became those big whoopy canid, um, you know, hypercar, the gray wolves were more adaptable, uh, smaller size, and a diet that was a little bit more diverse.” This evolutionary divergence created approximately 12.5 million genetic differences, yet Colossal made only 20 genetic changes to grey wolves. “Twenty changes out of 12.5 million is nothing,” Bastien emphasises.

The interview takes a philosophical turn when Steve asks about the one motivation that might have ethical value – atonement for human-caused extinctions. Bastien thoughtfully responds, “Even atoning for that doesn’t mean that we’re going to change our behaviors,” noting that such technology might create a dangerous sense of complacency about current conservation challenges.

Perhaps most powerfully, Bastien offers an analogy that crystallises the issue: “If we take a chimp and we introduce 20 changes in the genome of the chimp, so it loses the hair, for example, and the shape of the skull is modified… would we consider that genetically engineered chimp a human?” The answer is clearly no, undermining the claim that genetically modified grey wolves are actually dire wolves.

The conversation closes with wisdom about critical thinking, with Bastien suggesting that while we should allow ourselves to be amazed by scientific headlines initially, we must follow with critical reflection: “You need to let it go. At first you need to be amazed. You need to be curious. You need to be dreaming a little bit. But then once that first phase is over, you need to sit down a little bit and think about really what the information is about.”

00:51:09 Musical Pilgrimage

In the Musical Pilgrimage, we feature Rumble Rumble by Professor Flint.

This is a song about the Permian extinction, known as The Great Dying, in which 96% of all life was wiped out. It reminds us of the fragility of nature, and the impermanence of all things. It also reminds us of nature’s resilience. While it took millions of years to recover, given the chance, and time, nature was able to recover, and we enter the remarkable Age of Dinosaurs. The death of some, allows for the evolution of others.

Michael Mills, the man behind Professor Flint and HeapsGood Music, is highlighted as someone gaining popularity by “staying true to the science” – a refreshing counterpoint to the misleading headlines discussed throughout the episode. Steve shares exciting news about Michael’s upcoming performances at the Lyme Regis Fossil Festival in the UK (making history as the first Australian to grace that stage), as well as his Commonwealth National Science Week grant supporting “The Ammonites,” an all-female dinosaur-loving supergroup touring across Australia this August.

Adelaide&rsquo;s scientific community wades into the global conversation about de-extinction as Associate Professor Bastien Llamas from the University of Adelaide&rsquo;s School of Biological Sciences and the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA brings cool-headed expertise to recent claims about dire wolves being &ldquo;brought back from extinction.&rdquo; What began as scientific curiosity became urgently relevant when Steve overheard his teenage daughters excitedly discussing how &ldquo;wolves aren&rsquo;t extinct anymore and mammoths will be back soon&rdquo; &ndash; highlighting the real-world consequences of misunderstood science.
The SA Drink Of The Week segment isn&rsquo;t included in this episode, as our focus remains squarely on the fascinating scientific ground being covered, from the definition of true extinction to the uncomfortable realities of dropping long-gone predators into modern ecosystems.
In the Musical Pilgrimage, we&rsquo;re treated to Professor Flint&rsquo;s&nbsp;Rumble Rumble, a song about the Permian extinction that carries a message of both disaster and hope &ndash; perfectly complementing our exploration of extinction, science communication, and the resilience of nature given sufficient time.
You can navigate episodes using chapter markers in your podcast app. Not a fan of one segment? You can click next to jump to the next chapter in the show. We&rsquo;re here to serve!
The Adelaide Show Podcast: Awarded Silver for&nbsp;Best Interview Podcast in Australia&nbsp;at the 2021 Australian Podcast Awards and named as Finalist for&nbsp;Best News and Current Affairs Podcast&nbsp;in the 2018 Australian Podcast Awards.
And please consider becoming part of our podcast by joining our Inner Circle. It&rsquo;s an email list. Join it and you might get an email on a Sunday or Monday seeking question ideas, guest ideas and requests for other bits of feedback about YOUR podcast, The Adelaide Show. Email us directly and we&rsquo;ll add you to the list:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:podcast@theadelaideshow.com.au">podcast@theadelaideshow.com.au</a>
If you enjoy the show, please&nbsp;<a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/another-boring-thursday-night/id696302138">leave us a 5-star review&nbsp;</a>in iTunes or other podcast sites, or buy some great merch from our Red Bubble store &ndash;&nbsp;<a href="https://www.redbubble.com/people/theadelaideshow/shop?asc=u">The Adelaide Show Shop</a>. We&rsquo;d greatly appreciate it.
And please talk about us and share our episodes on social media, it really helps build our community. Oh, and here&rsquo;s&nbsp;<a href="https://theadelaideshow.com.au/complete-list-adelaide-show-episodes/">our index of all episode in one concise page.</a>
Running Sheet: Making De-extinction Claims Extinct
00:00:00&nbsp;Intro
Introduction
00:00:00&nbsp;SA Drink Of The Week
No South Australian Drink Of The Week, this week.
00:02:52 Assoc. Prof. Bastien Llamas
Winter isn&rsquo;t just coming, apparently it arrived in October last year when Colossal Biosciences announced they&rsquo;d successfully &ldquo;de-extincted&rdquo; the dire wolf after a 10,000-year absence. Now, for anyone watching the news or scrolling through social media lately, you might think you&rsquo;ve stepped into an episode of Game of Thrones&mdash;and the connection is no coincidence, with George R.R. Martin himself serving as a &ldquo;cultural adviser&rdquo; to this company. I first caught wind of this story through our good mate Michael Mills, better known to many South Aussie school kids as Professor Flint, who was absolutely scathing about these claims. And I&rsquo;ll admit, I thought exploring this topic might be a bit of scientific curiosity until I was driving my teenage daughters recently, and overheard them chatting excitedly about how &ldquo;cool it is that wolves aren&rsquo;t extinct anymore&rdquo; and that &ldquo;mammoths will be back soon too.&rdquo; That&rsquo;s when I realised we needed some cool-headed expertise on the subject.
With us today is&nbsp;<a href="https://researchers.adelaide.edu.au/profile/bastien.llamas">Associate Professor Bastien Llamas</a>&nbsp;from the University of Adelaide&rsquo;s School of Biological Sciences and the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA. Bastien&rsquo;s work on ancient DNA and human adaptation to environmental and cultural stressors puts him in the perfect position to help us understand what&rsquo;s actually happening with these de-extinction claims. Welcome.
The interview opens amid the cultural echoes of Game of Thrones, with Steve noting how Colossal Biosciences has seemingly found a &ldquo;middle ground&rdquo; in the stark binary of winning or dying in the game of thrones &ndash; by claiming to resurrect dire wolves after a 10,000-year absence. This connection is no coincidence, with George R.R. Martin himself serving as a cultural advisor to the company.
&ldquo;If it looks like a dire wolf and it howls like a dire wolf, it&rsquo;s&hellip; well, a dire wolf for the sake of PR purposes,&rdquo; Steve observes, setting the stage for Bastien to methodically dismantle the scientific validity of these claims. The discussion begins with fundamentals, as Bastien explains what extinction actually means from a scientific perspective: &ldquo;The extinction process is really the total disappearance of a particular species from the surface of the earth.&rdquo;
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Bastien addresses the technological impossibility of true de-extinction: &ldquo;To de-extinct means literally bringing back individuals from that very species to life&hellip; if that extinction happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, it means that we would need to have intact cells from these particular individuals. And through some cloning technologies, be able to create an embryo&hellip; Now we&rsquo;re talking about science fiction.&rdquo;
When pressed on the ecological reality of reintroducing extinct species, Bastien paints a vivid picture of the challenges: &ldquo;If a species got extinct in the first place, it&rsquo;s very likely because there were some factors &mdash; environmental change or human overkill &mdash; that means the world has slowly changed to the point where that species was not adapted to their environment.&rdquo; His specific example about dire wolves resonates with practical concerns: &ldquo;A nice big cow would probably be a great prey for that wolf. And I am just waiting for the reaction of the farmers.&rdquo;
The scientific breakdown of Colossal&rsquo;s claims is particularly enlightening, with Bastien revealing that dire wolves and grey wolves split evolutionarily 5.7 million years ago: &ldquo;For 5.7 million years, they evolved differently. Dire wolf became those big whoopy canid, um, you know, hypercar, the gray wolves were more adaptable, uh, smaller size, and a diet that was a little bit more diverse.&rdquo; This evolutionary divergence created approximately 12.5 million genetic differences, yet Colossal made only 20 genetic changes to grey wolves. &ldquo;Twenty changes out of 12.5 million is nothing,&rdquo; Bastien emphasises.
The interview takes a philosophical turn when Steve asks about the one motivation that might have ethical value &ndash; atonement for human-caused extinctions. Bastien thoughtfully responds, &ldquo;Even atoning for that doesn&rsquo;t mean that we&rsquo;re going to change our behaviors,&rdquo; noting that such technology might create a dangerous sense of complacency about current conservation challenges.
Perhaps most powerfully, Bastien offers an analogy that crystallises the issue: &ldquo;If we take a chimp and we introduce 20 changes in the genome of the chimp, so it loses the hair, for example, and the shape of the skull is modified&hellip; would we consider that genetically engineered chimp a human?&rdquo; The answer is clearly no, undermining the claim that genetically modified grey wolves are actually dire wolves.
The conversation closes with wisdom about critical thinking, with Bastien suggesting that while we should allow ourselves to be amazed by scientific headlines initially, we must follow with critical reflection: &ldquo;You need to let it go. At first you need to be amazed. You need to be curious. You need to be dreaming a little bit. But then once that first phase is over, you need to sit down a little bit and think about really what the information is about.&rdquo;
00:51:09&nbsp;Musical Pilgrimage
In the Musical Pilgrimage, we feature&nbsp;Rumble Rumble&nbsp;by&nbsp;<a href="https://www.facebook.com/DinosaursDownUnder">Professor Flint</a>.
This is a song about the Permian extinction, known as The Great Dying, in which 96% of all life was wiped out. It reminds us of the fragility of nature, and the impermanence of all things. It also reminds us of nature&rsquo;s resilience. While it took millions of years to recover, given the chance, and time, nature was able to recover, and we enter the remarkable Age of Dinosaurs. The death of some, allows for the evolution of others.
Michael Mills, the man behind Professor Flint and&nbsp;<a href="https://heapsgood.com.au/heapsgood-music.html">HeapsGood Music</a>, is highlighted as someone gaining popularity by &ldquo;staying true to the science&rdquo; &ndash; a refreshing counterpoint to the misleading headlines discussed throughout the episode. Steve shares exciting news about Michael&rsquo;s upcoming performances at the&nbsp;<a href="https://fossilfestival.com/">Lyme Regis Fossil Festival</a>&nbsp;in the UK (making history as the first Australian to grace that stage), as well as his Commonwealth National Science Week grant supporting &ldquo;<a href="https://theammonites.bandcamp.com/">The Ammonites</a>,&rdquo; an all-female dinosaur-loving supergroup touring across Australia this August.

A weekly podcast recorded in Adelaide that puts South Australian passion on centre stage with a featured guest who joins us each week as a co-presenter to share how they're pursuing their passions. We venture across topics as diverse as history, wine, food, art, music, relationships, critical thinking, health, news, interviews, chat and quizzes. 

Every single interview, every single show, unlocks insights into what drives people to be doing what they're doing and what keeps them striving. 

The Adelaide Show is produced by Steve Davis and Nigel Dobson-Keeffe.

Please subscribe to our In Crowd list; you get an email each Friday (when we have published a new episode) with an overview of that week's show. Plus, consider joining our Inner Circle; a small group of passionate South Aussies who allow us to pick their brains and gain interviewee suggestions.

This podcast began life as Another Boring Thursday Night In Adelaide from episodes 1-79.

A podcast recorded in Adelaide that puts South Australian passion on centre stage with a featured guest who joins us each week as a co-presenter to share how they're pursuing their passions. We venture across topics as diverse as history, wine, ...

The Adelaide Show

A podcast recorded in Adelaide that puts South Australian passion on centre stage with a featured guest who joins us to share how they're pursuing their passions. We venture across topics as diverse as history, wine, food, art, music, relationships, critical thinking, health, and general news. Every single interview, every single show, unlocks insights into what drives people to be doing what they're doing and what keeps them striving. The Adelaide Show is produced by Steve Davis, and ends with an original song by a South Australian artist. Please subscribe to our In Crowd list; you get an email each Friday with an overview of that week's show. This podcast began life as Another Boring Thursday Night In Adelaide from episodes 1-79.

A podcast recorded in Adelaide that puts South Australian passion on centre stage with a featured guest who joins us to share how they're pursuing their passions. We venture across topics as diverse as history, wine, food, art, music, relationships, critical thinking, health, and general news. Every single interview, every single show, unlocks insights into what drives people to be doing what they're doing and what keeps them striving. The Adelaide Show is produced by Steve Davis, and ends with an original song by a South Australian artist. Please subscribe to our In Crowd list; you get an email each Friday with an overview of that week's show. This podcast began life as Another Boring Thursday Night In Adelaide from episodes 1-79.

Associate Professor Bastien Llamas from the University of Adelaide’s School of Biological Sciences dismantles the science behind recent “de-extinction” claims about dire wolves while exploring the ethical implications of reviving extinct species, accompanied by a Professor Flint musical pilgrimage that confronts extinction with both gravity and hope.

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