Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm as Valoshian and today Cara Price and I will bring you the headlines this week, including some surprisingly rapid changes in the way people are using generative AI. Then on tech Support, we'll talk to the Washington Posts Naomi Nix about the first week of the Meta antitrust trial.

Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm as Valoshian and today Cara Price and I will bring you the headlines this week, including some surprisingly rapid changes in the way people are using generative AI. Then on tech Support, we'll talk to the Washington Posts Naomi Nix about the first week of the Meta antitrust trial.

This latest trial is a Now they're a piece of evidence that the companies haven't yet, to put it crudely, gotten what they've paid for.

This latest trial is a Now they're a piece of evidence that the companies haven't yet, to put it crudely, gotten what they've paid for.

All of that. On the Weekend Tech It's Friday, April eighteenth, Hello us, Hello Cara.

All of that. On the Weekend Tech It's Friday, April eighteenth, Hello us, Hello Cara.

So I was thinking about you this week. I was seeing something Oliver Instagram, which is my preferred social media platform. Your preferred social media platform has nothing to do with socializing. It's called Lincoln.

So I was thinking about you this week. I was seeing something Oliver Instagram, which is my preferred social media platform. Your preferred social media platform has nothing to do with socializing. It's called Lincoln.

Well, maybe you're too old for TikTok and I'm too old for Instagram. So yes, LinkedIn is my absolutely.

Well, maybe you're too old for TikTok and I'm too old for Instagram. So yes, LinkedIn is my absolutely.

Right, at least you're not using Facebook. So on this I saw action figures. Yeah, that looked a lot like my friends, like my friend who works at Tory Birch. There was like there was an action figure of like a jewel and an iced coffee and a Tory Birch handbag. In a weird way, I've looked at it as a sort of LinkedIn's own version of the Jibbli portraits that we talked about a few weeks ago. You know, to make these, you upload a picture of yourself to chat GBT and prompt the model to turn you into a picture of a toy action figure.

Right, at least you're not using Facebook. So on this I saw action figures. Yeah, that looked a lot like my friends, like my friend who works at Tory Birch. There was like there was an action figure of like a jewel and an iced coffee and a Tory Birch handbag. In a weird way, I've looked at it as a sort of LinkedIn's own version of the Jibbli portraits that we talked about a few weeks ago. You know, to make these, you upload a picture of yourself to chat GBT and prompt the model to turn you into a picture of a toy action figure.

Imagine going into a toy store in nineteen eighty four and you have plastic packed action figurines like could be a Bobbie, could be a Gi Joe with some special swag that the character has which reflects on who the character is.

Imagine going into a toy store in nineteen eighty four and you have plastic packed action figurines like could be a Bobbie, could be a Gi Joe with some special swag that the character has which reflects on who the character is.

Yeah, and I think in a weird way, it sort of acts as this like pictorial resume of like this is who I like. I am podcast fundraiser, I have jim bag, I have a six sneakers.

Yeah, and I think in a weird way, it sort of acts as this like pictorial resume of like this is who I like. I am podcast fundraiser, I have jim bag, I have a six sneakers.

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

I am here asking for some money. I don't know what I'm talking about.

I am here asking for some money. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Do you know what's very interesting? I used to work for a branding agency. I know that you know that, and our business cards were a pictorial representation of us and then a few representations of things that were important to us. So I had like a British flag and like a tennis racking or.

Do you know what's very interesting? I used to work for a branding agency. I know that you know that, and our business cards were a pictorial representation of us and then a few representations of things that were important to us. So I had like a British flag and like a tennis racking or.

Whatever one visa on visa.

Whatever one visa on visa.

Exactly, you know. And there was like kind of a talking point at the beginning of the meeting and this is kind of the LinkedIn meets chatchybt version of that, and it's going completely viral.

Exactly, you know. And there was like kind of a talking point at the beginning of the meeting and this is kind of the LinkedIn meets chatchybt version of that, and it's going completely viral.

It's going completely viral and people love. I don't know if it's uncanny. I think it is uncanny Valley, like people love to see themselves represented in an animated format because it's sort of like the last frontier of like reality turned into surreality one hundred percent.

It's going completely viral and people love. I don't know if it's uncanny. I think it is uncanny Valley, like people love to see themselves represented in an animated format because it's sort of like the last frontier of like reality turned into surreality one hundred percent.

I'm sure you've seen The Real Housewives as Pixar characters, which is so good.

I'm sure you've seen The Real Housewives as Pixar characters, which is so good.

Which they're starting to look like anyway with all the filters that you can use to post them on Instagram.

Which they're starting to look like anyway with all the filters that you can use to post them on Instagram.

But you know what this is what is driving something extraordinary that happened, which is that CHATGPT excluding games, became the most downloaded app in the world last month.

But you know what this is what is driving something extraordinary that happened, which is that CHATGPT excluding games, became the most downloaded app in the world last month.

Yeah, and actually at last week's TED conference, Sam Altman let slip that the usage of chat gbt had doubled in just a few weeks, indicating it now has eight hundred million weekly active users.

Yeah, and actually at last week's TED conference, Sam Altman let slip that the usage of chat gbt had doubled in just a few weeks, indicating it now has eight hundred million weekly active users.

Yeah, I mean, it is an extraordinary number, and I think you use the word indicating advisedly because he said it was about ten percent of the world's population. You know, at the beginning of this year, we were talking about would the business model for these charative ami companies ever work. There's a story in Information this week that the revenues at OpenAI are picking up dramatically. They've grown thirty percent so far this year, So that's in one quarter to around four hundred and fifteen million dollars per month in revenue.

Yeah, I mean, it is an extraordinary number, and I think you use the word indicating advisedly because he said it was about ten percent of the world's population. You know, at the beginning of this year, we were talking about would the business model for these charative ami companies ever work. There's a story in Information this week that the revenues at OpenAI are picking up dramatically. They've grown thirty percent so far this year, So that's in one quarter to around four hundred and fifteen million dollars per month in revenue.

Which is very interesting for a company that built itself as a non brop no. But in some ways, I'm not surprised because it feels like there's a new use case for chat GBT every week. I'm more invested in it every week, and so I am sort of always interested when I see the data reflected in my own personal.

Which is very interesting for a company that built itself as a non brop no. But in some ways, I'm not surprised because it feels like there's a new use case for chat GBT every week. I'm more invested in it every week, and so I am sort of always interested when I see the data reflected in my own personal.

Use I mean, you get hooked on, oh my god, what would my family photo look like as a Pixar movie? And then it's like, huh, you know, I what if I put this legal contract through chat GPT and asked it to advise me on what were the key points I should be paying attention to, which I did for the first time last week after I used the image generation feature. So I mean, it's a remarkable moment where I think a true consumer adoption is creating the business model, or could be beginning to create the business model, which is a question some people had, would that ever really actually happen? But we are not the only people observing what's happening. There was something actually fascinating I read last week in the Harvard Business Review that might shock you.

Use I mean, you get hooked on, oh my god, what would my family photo look like as a Pixar movie? And then it's like, huh, you know, I what if I put this legal contract through chat GPT and asked it to advise me on what were the key points I should be paying attention to, which I did for the first time last week after I used the image generation feature. So I mean, it's a remarkable moment where I think a true consumer adoption is creating the business model, or could be beginning to create the business model, which is a question some people had, would that ever really actually happen? But we are not the only people observing what's happening. There was something actually fascinating I read last week in the Harvard Business Review that might shock you.

So tell me about something fat fascinating that you actually were able to find in the Harvard Business Review.

So tell me about something fat fascinating that you actually were able to find in the Harvard Business Review.

Well, the article was about AI use cases, and according to Harvard Business Review, the most common reason for generative AI usage over the last twelve months was therapy and companionship.

Well, the article was about AI use cases, and according to Harvard Business Review, the most common reason for generative AI usage over the last twelve months was therapy and companionship.

It's actually very funny you say this, and this is not a setup. I've actually met a woman the other day who told me she'd created her own therapy bot, calling it a GPT. And I've been seeing a ton of stuff about using AI models for therapy everywhere, and I was honestly starting to wonder if all these articles on AI relationships were a bit blown out of proportion, But it seems to be a very real trend.

It's actually very funny you say this, and this is not a setup. I've actually met a woman the other day who told me she'd created her own therapy bot, calling it a GPT. And I've been seeing a ton of stuff about using AI models for therapy everywhere, and I was honestly starting to wonder if all these articles on AI relationships were a bit blown out of proportion, But it seems to be a very real trend.

Well, you've taken endorsement after slamming me for being fascinated by the Harvard Business Review, You've been swayed by their validation of your worldview.

Well, you've taken endorsement after slamming me for being fascinated by the Harvard Business Review, You've been swayed by their validation of your worldview.

Judge where information comes from unless it's the Harvard Business Review.

Judge where information comes from unless it's the Harvard Business Review.

So this is a study and the methodology is quite interesting. Some might question it, but I thought it was interesting. They're basically a tool to scrape online forums like primarily Reddit but also kra and a few others that scrape for every single mention of how people are using AI, categorize them and then counted the number of posts about each use case, you know, filtering out the garbage and whatever else, to come up with the stat rank of the top one hundred use cases that people are talking about how they use AI.

So this is a study and the methodology is quite interesting. Some might question it, but I thought it was interesting. They're basically a tool to scrape online forums like primarily Reddit but also kra and a few others that scrape for every single mention of how people are using AI, categorize them and then counted the number of posts about each use case, you know, filtering out the garbage and whatever else, to come up with the stat rank of the top one hundred use cases that people are talking about how they use AI.

And so Reddit really is the treasure trove of this discovery.

And so Reddit really is the treasure trove of this discovery.

I think it is, and I think you know there's a reason why is because people post without using their real names in a very unfiltered way on Reddit, and so I think as a proxy for how people are using technology, you could do a lot worse than Reddit. And in fact, I also read in the Harvard Business Review that today ten percent of reddits revenues actually come from selling its user generated content as training data to llms, so you know that there is.

I think it is, and I think you know there's a reason why is because people post without using their real names in a very unfiltered way on Reddit, and so I think as a proxy for how people are using technology, you could do a lot worse than Reddit. And in fact, I also read in the Harvard Business Review that today ten percent of reddits revenues actually come from selling its user generated content as training data to llms, so you know that there is.

Just like our friends of the Atlanta though there's.

Just like our friends of the Atlanta though there's.

Gold in them hills. This is actually the second time this study has been published in the Harvard Business Review. It's published in twenty twenty five as well. What I found really really interesting was what change from twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five. Thirty eight new use cases have been added to the list, and last year's top use case was generating ideas, which has now fallen down to sixth place. This year, the second and third most popular use cases were new entrants to the list. They weren't in the top hundred mentions last year and now they're in second and third place. They were organizing my life, followed by finding purpose.

Gold in them hills. This is actually the second time this study has been published in the Harvard Business Review. It's published in twenty twenty five as well. What I found really really interesting was what change from twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five. Thirty eight new use cases have been added to the list, and last year's top use case was generating ideas, which has now fallen down to sixth place. This year, the second and third most popular use cases were new entrants to the list. They weren't in the top hundred mentions last year and now they're in second and third place. They were organizing my life, followed by finding purpose.

You know, I think this speaks to something which is that people are lonely, and people don't know how to talk to other real people about these things. And I think, sort of like tinders the game game right that we did last week, it's much easier to kind of test these very human interactions on computers.

You know, I think this speaks to something which is that people are lonely, and people don't know how to talk to other real people about these things. And I think, sort of like tinders the game game right that we did last week, it's much easier to kind of test these very human interactions on computers.

Absolutely or in a computer no judgment judgment free zone.

Absolutely or in a computer no judgment judgment free zone.

The other thing that I would mention is that regular therapy the kind that you have with the human therapist will put your bank account into negative numbers, absolutely, And so you may not want to constantly burden your friends with your issues and be the carry Bradshaw in your friend group. And so I can see why a person would turn to AI to help them through a hard time. I actually don't judge it at all.

The other thing that I would mention is that regular therapy the kind that you have with the human therapist will put your bank account into negative numbers, absolutely, And so you may not want to constantly burden your friends with your issues and be the carry Bradshaw in your friend group. And so I can see why a person would turn to AI to help them through a hard time. I actually don't judge it at all.

No, no, me neither. But on the contrary, I mean, I think what the HBr sort of pointed out as the kind of larger takeaway in the twenty twenty four versus twenty twenty five comparison was that in twenty twenty four, the most popular use cases were all around quote unquote technical assistance and troubleshooting, whereas this year they're in quote unquote personal and professional support, which kind of mirrors what we were talking about just a few minutes ago, which is how AI has become more ubiquitous and therefore like normal people are using it for more normal reasons.

No, no, me neither. But on the contrary, I mean, I think what the HBr sort of pointed out as the kind of larger takeaway in the twenty twenty four versus twenty twenty five comparison was that in twenty twenty four, the most popular use cases were all around quote unquote technical assistance and troubleshooting, whereas this year they're in quote unquote personal and professional support, which kind of mirrors what we were talking about just a few minutes ago, which is how AI has become more ubiquitous and therefore like normal people are using it for more normal reasons.

I think, more ubiquitous and also like imbued with our own humanity as opposed to like a place where we find how do I fix this thing?

I think, more ubiquitous and also like imbued with our own humanity as opposed to like a place where we find how do I fix this thing?

Right?

Right?

I think it's changed from how do I fix this thing? Too? How do I fix myself, which to me is both a little bit scary and also a little bit exciting.

I think it's changed from how do I fix this thing? Too? How do I fix myself, which to me is both a little bit scary and also a little bit exciting.

Absolutely, there is one really important exception to what we've been talking about just now, which is that two use cases, firstly generating code and secondly improving code, both had meteoric rises. So generating code was down in lowly forty seventh place on last year's list, is now in fifth place. And that brings me to my next headline, which is by Bloomberg. Under the headline AI Coding Assistant, Cursor draws a million users without even trying. So there's a hot new AI start up in town, one that you've probably never heard of, because I hadn't heard of it either until now. Its Bloomberg story. But also they don't advertise or market. Bloomberg reports that Cursor hasn't spent a single dollar on paid marketing. The startup behind it is any Sphere, Inc. And they make this AI powered coding editor called Cursor.

Absolutely, there is one really important exception to what we've been talking about just now, which is that two use cases, firstly generating code and secondly improving code, both had meteoric rises. So generating code was down in lowly forty seventh place on last year's list, is now in fifth place. And that brings me to my next headline, which is by Bloomberg. Under the headline AI Coding Assistant, Cursor draws a million users without even trying. So there's a hot new AI start up in town, one that you've probably never heard of, because I hadn't heard of it either until now. Its Bloomberg story. But also they don't advertise or market. Bloomberg reports that Cursor hasn't spent a single dollar on paid marketing. The startup behind it is any Sphere, Inc. And they make this AI powered coding editor called Cursor.

Yeah, it's this popular tool for both formally trained computer programs and this thing that I love, Vibe coders. A coding editor, from what I understand, is a program that does things like check your code for errors. Think of it like spell check for coding, and then on top of that, more recent AI coders like Cursor can also suggest lines of code for you based on what you've previously written.

Yeah, it's this popular tool for both formally trained computer programs and this thing that I love, Vibe coders. A coding editor, from what I understand, is a program that does things like check your code for errors. Think of it like spell check for coding, and then on top of that, more recent AI coders like Cursor can also suggest lines of code for you based on what you've previously written.

So Gen one is like spell check and Gen two is shifted response for emails.

So Gen one is like spell check and Gen two is shifted response for emails.

Exactly, And that's what vibe coding actually is. You just like accept all of the suggestions versus having to correct your code, sort of like writing a whole email and autocomplete, which I do when I send an email says thank you, Comma, Jennifer exclamation point. That is an email that's written entirely by autocomplete. And just to be clear, as of today, vibe coding does not generate code at the level of real coding.

Exactly, And that's what vibe coding actually is. You just like accept all of the suggestions versus having to correct your code, sort of like writing a whole email and autocomplete, which I do when I send an email says thank you, Comma, Jennifer exclamation point. That is an email that's written entirely by autocomplete. And just to be clear, as of today, vibe coding does not generate code at the level of real coding.

Nonetheless, Cursor has quietly become one of the fastest growing startups of all time. It's even used by programmers at companies like OpenAI, Instacra, and Uber. Although most of the revenue you comes from individuals people using it and not using it through corporate descriptions. They're getting their own subscription to help them with their work. As it turns out, coders are wanting to pay cash for a good user interface and adaptability. The passion is real for the product back In January, any Sphere reached one hundred million in annual recurring revenue. By March that number of doubled and over a million people are now using Cursor every single day.

Nonetheless, Cursor has quietly become one of the fastest growing startups of all time. It's even used by programmers at companies like OpenAI, Instacra, and Uber. Although most of the revenue you comes from individuals people using it and not using it through corporate descriptions. They're getting their own subscription to help them with their work. As it turns out, coders are wanting to pay cash for a good user interface and adaptability. The passion is real for the product back In January, any Sphere reached one hundred million in annual recurring revenue. By March that number of doubled and over a million people are now using Cursor every single day.

I mean, we've talked about this many, many times that there's a lot of anxiety about AI replacing people's jobs. Cursor is actually interesting because it's being used to help people with their jobs. It's a productivity tool, and it's what these AI companies have been parroting all along.

I mean, we've talked about this many, many times that there's a lot of anxiety about AI replacing people's jobs. Cursor is actually interesting because it's being used to help people with their jobs. It's a productivity tool, and it's what these AI companies have been parroting all along.

It's an interesting paradigm thing here where it's not like here's a new product to make your redundant. It's like, here's a new product that makes you better so much so that you pay your own money to use it to make you better at your job. I mean that is I think, sort of a high watermark for what we can hope for from AI use cases.

It's an interesting paradigm thing here where it's not like here's a new product to make your redundant. It's like, here's a new product that makes you better so much so that you pay your own money to use it to make you better at your job. I mean that is I think, sort of a high watermark for what we can hope for from AI use cases.

Yeah, and it's actually a concept that investors are falling in love with. Any Sphere, which is, as we said, the parent company has raised one hundred and seventy five million dollars in the likes of Andrees and Horowitz as well as one of open AI's co founders, among many others. Any Spheres and talks to raise more money at evaluation of nearly ten billion.

Yeah, and it's actually a concept that investors are falling in love with. Any Sphere, which is, as we said, the parent company has raised one hundred and seventy five million dollars in the likes of Andrees and Horowitz as well as one of open AI's co founders, among many others. Any Spheres and talks to raise more money at evaluation of nearly ten billion.

Yeah, I mean it's very competitive space. Open AI and Anthropic both seem to be eyeing the arena for their own AI for coding tools, but nothing beats user adoption. So we'll see how this story unfolds. The CURSA. We're going to take a quick break now. When we come back, carasches a rather surreal headline. Stay with us.

Yeah, I mean it's very competitive space. Open AI and Anthropic both seem to be eyeing the arena for their own AI for coding tools, but nothing beats user adoption. So we'll see how this story unfolds. The CURSA. We're going to take a quick break now. When we come back, carasches a rather surreal headline. Stay with us.

So as we're back, and I'm warning you that our next story is something that you're really gonna love.

So as we're back, and I'm warning you that our next story is something that you're really gonna love.

Okay, tell me. So.

Okay, tell me. So.

Google has a generative video model called VO two, and the way it works is you type in a prompt or feed it some media like an image, and VO two will generate a video based on these materials. So late last year, Google announced that they were launching a new version of the model, which includes a better grasp of physics and more quote nuances of human movement and expression.

Google has a generative video model called VO two, and the way it works is you type in a prompt or feed it some media like an image, and VO two will generate a video based on these materials. So late last year, Google announced that they were launching a new version of the model, which includes a better grasp of physics and more quote nuances of human movement and expression.

When a tech company tries to capture the nuance of humanity, it's always you always know there's going to be some excitements in store, yet.

When a tech company tries to capture the nuance of humanity, it's always you always know there's going to be some excitements in store, yet.

They still try to do it. The news is that Google recently showed off the updated VO two at the Google Cloud next conference, which we were not invited.

They still try to do it. The news is that Google recently showed off the updated VO two at the Google Cloud next conference, which we were not invited.

Two our invitations must have got lost in the mail.

Two our invitations must have got lost in the mail.

And maybe they could have made a bigger splash if they invited us. But they did want to make a splash, so they decided to appeal to both you and the art community.

And maybe they could have made a bigger splash if they invited us. But they did want to make a splash, so they decided to appeal to both you and the art community.

High risk bet the art community and not notoriously such big fans of the big tech world.

High risk bet the art community and not notoriously such big fans of the big tech world.

Are you going to ask me what they show?

Are you going to ask me what they show?

Yes? What did they show?

Yes? What did they show?

So they showed a trailer based on Salvador Dolly's unmade screenplay.

So they showed a trailer based on Salvador Dolly's unmade screenplay.

Salvador Dolly's unmade screenplay? What's that about?

Salvador Dolly's unmade screenplay? What's that about?

So let me set the scene. I was not there, but it's nineteen thirty seven. You're Salvador Dolly, you're in your early thirties, you're my age, and you were hanging out with Harpo Marx, one of the Marx brothers, who I adore.

So let me set the scene. I was not there, but it's nineteen thirty seven. You're Salvador Dolly, you're in your early thirties, you're my age, and you were hanging out with Harpo Marx, one of the Marx brothers, who I adore.

This is a great collection of characters, and it's like, you can make it up that these people were hanging out together and thinking how do we make a movie?

This is a great collection of characters, and it's like, you can make it up that these people were hanging out together and thinking how do we make a movie?

And my favorite character, who's of course the naysayer, also factors into this. So you, as Dolly, write a fantastical screenplay for the Marx brothers to star in. But when you bring it to MGM, Louis B. Mayor of MGM kills the project and the screenplay is never realized as a film.

And my favorite character, who's of course the naysayer, also factors into this. So you, as Dolly, write a fantastical screenplay for the Marx brothers to star in. But when you bring it to MGM, Louis B. Mayor of MGM kills the project and the screenplay is never realized as a film.

Was there a reason for spiking it?

Was there a reason for spiking it?

Well, in a world where now tent pole films are very important, and then being able to sell a film was very important. Pitching a film called Giraffes on Horseback Salad is not exactly something that they think jumps off the screen.

Well, in a world where now tent pole films are very important, and then being able to sell a film was very important. Pitching a film called Giraffes on Horseback Salad is not exactly something that they think jumps off the screen.

The biting Dali and the Marx brothers hands off for this one.

The biting Dali and the Marx brothers hands off for this one.

They weren't umping at the salad fit for I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself. But the movie itself was a kind of broadly about an aristocratic man who falls in love with a woman from a world where dreams are reality, and it's so surreal it was likely unfilmable at the time. The other important piece I think that kind of made me laugh is that some of the Marx brothers like didn't even think it was funny.

They weren't umping at the salad fit for I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself. But the movie itself was a kind of broadly about an aristocratic man who falls in love with a woman from a world where dreams are reality, and it's so surreal it was likely unfilmable at the time. The other important piece I think that kind of made me laugh is that some of the Marx brothers like didn't even think it was funny.

They were like, eh, so it never got made, no until.

They were like, eh, so it never got made, no until.

Now, until now, Google is trying to at least right now, it's just a trailer because this is a big feat. Uh, it's a trailer that is produced by the Dolli Museum and Gooldbee Silverstein and partners. And I'm gonna play you just a little sample of the trailer, and then you're gonna tell me if you think this is true to one of your I don't know if he's one of your favorite artists, but you do like him Catalan culture. So let's see.

Now, until now, Google is trying to at least right now, it's just a trailer because this is a big feat. Uh, it's a trailer that is produced by the Dolli Museum and Gooldbee Silverstein and partners. And I'm gonna play you just a little sample of the trailer, and then you're gonna tell me if you think this is true to one of your I don't know if he's one of your favorite artists, but you do like him Catalan culture. So let's see.

Let me tell you how the strangest movie never made the world wasn't ready for into No.

Let me tell you how the strangest movie never made the world wasn't ready for into No.

I called it.

I called it.

Horseback Solid. Prepare yourself because the impossible is coming to life.

Horseback Solid. Prepare yourself because the impossible is coming to life.

Tell me a little bit about what you saw.

Tell me a little bit about what you saw.

Well, there's a giraffe on fire. There is obviously Salvador Daly's voice recreated. It does have the kind of vibe of a movie trailer. However, the esthetic is one that I think would make Salvador Dahi personally turn in his grave, because it is basically what you might imagine one of the camps at Burning Man might reinterpret Salvador Dali through the lens of It is so on the nose quote unquote surrealist, with people wearing like funny hats.

Well, there's a giraffe on fire. There is obviously Salvador Daly's voice recreated. It does have the kind of vibe of a movie trailer. However, the esthetic is one that I think would make Salvador Dahi personally turn in his grave, because it is basically what you might imagine one of the camps at Burning Man might reinterpret Salvador Dali through the lens of It is so on the nose quote unquote surrealist, with people wearing like funny hats.

It looks like clouds people on fire.

It looks like clouds people on fire.

It's got a very Burning Man vibe.

It's got a very Burning Man vibe.

It also has a very google commercial vibe, yes, which I think isn't the greatest thing ever, But yeah, I think fever dream is how I describe it. And actually, as you said, the narration is supposed to be Salvador, there's enough of his audience.

It also has a very google commercial vibe, yes, which I think isn't the greatest thing ever, But yeah, I think fever dream is how I describe it. And actually, as you said, the narration is supposed to be Salvador, there's enough of his audience.

Does he actually sound like that? Who knows? Did we did in fact shake his voice?

Does he actually sound like that? Who knows? Did we did in fact shake his voice?

We did? I did listen to it. Well, I did listen to him on radio program a little bit later, and he does sound a little bit like you know, But I always think about him twirling his.

We did? I did listen to it. Well, I did listen to him on radio program a little bit later, and he does sound a little bit like you know, But I always think about him twirling his.

Mustache actually character in Rettaitui.

Mustache actually character in Rettaitui.

There's no evidence to me that this is exactly what Salvador Dolly sounds like. But I think they definitely tried to recreate his voice, which we know by now is like what.

There's no evidence to me that this is exactly what Salvador Dolly sounds like. But I think they definitely tried to recreate his voice, which we know by now is like what.

They tried to do it. They probably did do it. Yeah.

They tried to do it. They probably did do it. Yeah.

According to Art News, this isn't the first time that there's actually been an AI generated Dolly. The same Dolly museum who's co producing this movie, actually had an exhibition called Ask Dolly that allowed museum goers to talk to him, meaning to talk to an AI created based on his voice. At the time. The museum COO said that if these technologies had been around when Dolly was alive, he would have played around with them.

According to Art News, this isn't the first time that there's actually been an AI generated Dolly. The same Dolly museum who's co producing this movie, actually had an exhibition called Ask Dolly that allowed museum goers to talk to him, meaning to talk to an AI created based on his voice. At the time. The museum COO said that if these technologies had been around when Dolly was alive, he would have played around with them.

My take was, it's not horrible, but it's pretty horrible. And I don't disagree that Darli would have played around with AI tools if he were around today, but I don't think he would have used them like this. I mean, the whole point of Dahali as a painter was that he made the medium new. He basically reinvented the media of paintings through his incredibly interesting and unforgettable serialus take. So I think if he did use Jennet of AI tools, he would come't with the considerably more interesting application than this, which ultimately feels a bit druotism. You would imagine if an artist like Darli used Jenet AI, he would have done so to critique or to push the medium forward, or to make us really think, versus to kind of, you know.

My take was, it's not horrible, but it's pretty horrible. And I don't disagree that Darli would have played around with AI tools if he were around today, but I don't think he would have used them like this. I mean, the whole point of Dahali as a painter was that he made the medium new. He basically reinvented the media of paintings through his incredibly interesting and unforgettable serialus take. So I think if he did use Jennet of AI tools, he would come't with the considerably more interesting application than this, which ultimately feels a bit druotism. You would imagine if an artist like Darli used Jenet AI, he would have done so to critique or to push the medium forward, or to make us really think, versus to kind of, you know.

Make a gimmick, make a gimmick. Yeah, that's very true. Can we run through the rest of the headlines?

Make a gimmick, make a gimmick. Yeah, that's very true. Can we run through the rest of the headlines?

Yes? And can you start yes? So Ours Technica reports that Nvidia is producing AI chips for the first time outside of Taiwan. Blackwell chip and are now being made at TSMC. That's the Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company at their plant in Phoenix, Arizona, and other companies in the state will test and package these chips. Nvidia also announced that they plan to build complete supercomputers on us soil, and their reports of the promise of up to five hundred billion dollars of investment in us AI infrastructure having been agreed to at a dinner between Jensen Huang and you know who recently at Mari Lago. In return, Kwang reportedly hoped to avoid yet more stringent export controls on chips to China, but seemly that hope has not materialized.

Yes? And can you start yes? So Ours Technica reports that Nvidia is producing AI chips for the first time outside of Taiwan. Blackwell chip and are now being made at TSMC. That's the Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company at their plant in Phoenix, Arizona, and other companies in the state will test and package these chips. Nvidia also announced that they plan to build complete supercomputers on us soil, and their reports of the promise of up to five hundred billion dollars of investment in us AI infrastructure having been agreed to at a dinner between Jensen Huang and you know who recently at Mari Lago. In return, Kwang reportedly hoped to avoid yet more stringent export controls on chips to China, but seemly that hope has not materialized.

I do wonder what's going to happen there, so please keep me posted. I also do wonder if the food is good at mar Laga.

I do wonder what's going to happen there, so please keep me posted. I also do wonder if the food is good at mar Laga.

Yeah, I bet it's old school.

Yeah, I bet it's old school.

Well, it's food that has to benefit a discussion about semiconductors, so it can't stand out too much. So if you are a big enough nerd to be covetous of Sam's Sung technology, but you're loyal to the Apple ecosystems, it's a very it's slender. There may be a phone for you. Nine to five Mac reports that there are rumors of and this is very mind blowing a foldable iPhone, which has been dubbed very surprisingly the iPhone fold be like I need the fold pro. I have to say this, and I hope it's not too embarrassing. If I do get this, I will be walking around saying my iPhone, don't jiggle, jiggle it folds.

Well, it's food that has to benefit a discussion about semiconductors, so it can't stand out too much. So if you are a big enough nerd to be covetous of Sam's Sung technology, but you're loyal to the Apple ecosystems, it's a very it's slender. There may be a phone for you. Nine to five Mac reports that there are rumors of and this is very mind blowing a foldable iPhone, which has been dubbed very surprisingly the iPhone fold be like I need the fold pro. I have to say this, and I hope it's not too embarrassing. If I do get this, I will be walking around saying my iPhone, don't jiggle, jiggle it folds.

But no.

But no.

According to the one report, the rumored phone may look like a normal iPhone but expands to roughly the size of an iPad Mini when unfolded to its full size. It also might feature a touch ID enabled power button. The most important thing in the reporting here is that I plan to use it as a picnic blanket in Central Park if it ever does come to fruition and does an overheat. I hate an overheated phone.

According to the one report, the rumored phone may look like a normal iPhone but expands to roughly the size of an iPad Mini when unfolded to its full size. It also might feature a touch ID enabled power button. The most important thing in the reporting here is that I plan to use it as a picnic blanket in Central Park if it ever does come to fruition and does an overheat. I hate an overheated phone.

Yeah. You have to wonder what this one is. Is it really going to come out or is it gonna be another one of these Apple projects. Since Steve Jobs, may he rest in peace, past that have never seen the light of day.

Yeah. You have to wonder what this one is. Is it really going to come out or is it gonna be another one of these Apple projects. Since Steve Jobs, may he rest in peace, past that have never seen the light of day.

And speaking of Dolly rolling over in his grave, this is the stone pillow in Steve Jobs's grave.

And speaking of Dolly rolling over in his grave, this is the stone pillow in Steve Jobs's grave.

I always like to talk about tech stories that inspire me and capture my imagination, and there was a report in the Washington Post this week about scientists who have been using technology to uncover the remains of past civilizations in the Amazon. So, this team of archaeologists in South America is using lidar or light detection and ranging, which is basically a laser sensor that can see through dense forests from above, either with planes or drones to find hidden structures beneath the canopy. You know, you don't need to be Indiana Jones anymore. You can just fly drones. The team has found a lost Portuguese colony ceramics made by an indigenous society. And what I find particularly cool here is that these findings are being used to protect the rainforest from clearing and logging. You can't protect the rainforest on its own term, sadly, but if it has archaeologically significant ruins beneath, it turns out you can.

I always like to talk about tech stories that inspire me and capture my imagination, and there was a report in the Washington Post this week about scientists who have been using technology to uncover the remains of past civilizations in the Amazon. So, this team of archaeologists in South America is using lidar or light detection and ranging, which is basically a laser sensor that can see through dense forests from above, either with planes or drones to find hidden structures beneath the canopy. You know, you don't need to be Indiana Jones anymore. You can just fly drones. The team has found a lost Portuguese colony ceramics made by an indigenous society. And what I find particularly cool here is that these findings are being used to protect the rainforest from clearing and logging. You can't protect the rainforest on its own term, sadly, but if it has archaeologically significant ruins beneath, it turns out you can.

Finally, if you live in Silicon Valley, you may have heard eerily familiar voices when crossing this I'm obsessed with this story. While crossing the street last weekend, Palo Alto Online reports that some crosswalk buttons seem to have been hacked, which is something I would notice immediately. I just wish they were hacked by Almo. Some people cross the street to the sound of Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, who I now call Mark x Infandel.

Finally, if you live in Silicon Valley, you may have heard eerily familiar voices when crossing this I'm obsessed with this story. While crossing the street last weekend, Palo Alto Online reports that some crosswalk buttons seem to have been hacked, which is something I would notice immediately. I just wish they were hacked by Almo. Some people cross the street to the sound of Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, who I now call Mark x Infandel.

So you press the button and rather than a walk sign is on.

So you press the button and rather than a walk sign is on.

It's like walk signs on. I don't know who. I don't know if that was a Zuckerberg or an Elon Musk. I can't really do a Musk impersonation, but some in Silicon Valley heard an impression of Elon Musk welcoming them to Palo Alto, while others heard fake Mark Zuckerberg say it's normal to feel uncomfortable, even violated, as we forcefully insert AI into every facet of your conscious experience. And I just want to assure you you don't need to worry because there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

It's like walk signs on. I don't know who. I don't know if that was a Zuckerberg or an Elon Musk. I can't really do a Musk impersonation, but some in Silicon Valley heard an impression of Elon Musk welcoming them to Palo Alto, while others heard fake Mark Zuckerberg say it's normal to feel uncomfortable, even violated, as we forcefully insert AI into every facet of your conscious experience. And I just want to assure you you don't need to worry because there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

I love this gorilla anti tech marketing campaign. I have no idea how you hack a crosswalk light, but props to these people.

I love this gorilla anti tech marketing campaign. I have no idea how you hack a crosswalk light, but props to these people.

If there's any place it's going to happen, it's palle Alto.

If there's any place it's going to happen, it's palle Alto.

I like your Zach impression. Elizabeth Helmes reminds me of one of the most iconic ever Zuckerberg moments, when he was testifying before the Senate a few years ago and was asked how Facebook's business works, to which he responded, well, ads, Sir Mark Kackerberg back in the spotlight this week because Meta is facing an anti trust trial brought by the Federal Trade Commission, and Zackerberg has been on the stand this week in Washington. Naomi Nicks of the Washington Post has more on the trial when we come back, stay with us, So, Carot, it seems like every week that we make this show, there are headlines we cover, and then there's a kind of the headline that kind of emerges as the biggest story of the week.

I like your Zach impression. Elizabeth Helmes reminds me of one of the most iconic ever Zuckerberg moments, when he was testifying before the Senate a few years ago and was asked how Facebook's business works, to which he responded, well, ads, Sir Mark Kackerberg back in the spotlight this week because Meta is facing an anti trust trial brought by the Federal Trade Commission, and Zackerberg has been on the stand this week in Washington. Naomi Nicks of the Washington Post has more on the trial when we come back, stay with us, So, Carot, it seems like every week that we make this show, there are headlines we cover, and then there's a kind of the headline that kind of emerges as the biggest story of the week.

Right last week was tiff Mania, which is the gift that keeps giving.

Right last week was tiff Mania, which is the gift that keeps giving.

And this week it's Meta's day in court, or rather many weeks in court. And the trial's actually been nearly five years in the making.

And this week it's Meta's day in court, or rather many weeks in court. And the trial's actually been nearly five years in the making.

It's been one of those news stories that's been like in the back of my mind, like I will just be going about my business and then say, oh wait, did the government soon matter? What happened to that?

It's been one of those news stories that's been like in the back of my mind, like I will just be going about my business and then say, oh wait, did the government soon matter? What happened to that?

Yeah? And it's also I mean when you and I first started working on kind of tech journalism together in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, the ideas that the government would ever effectively regulate technology companies was at best a fantasy or a pipe dream, and now it seems to be happening in real time, albeit slowly. And this also comes at a time when people are questioning whether the judiciary will continue to be, you know, a functioning pillar of government. But right now, at least in the realm of business, it sure is. Back In twenty twenty, the Federal Trade Commission sued Meta, as you said, and if you recall, Meta had previously purchased Instagram and WhatsApp in the years leading up to this. The FTC argued that Meta had acquired these companies specifically in order to strangle competition, which is illegal under anti trust laws.

Yeah? And it's also I mean when you and I first started working on kind of tech journalism together in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, the ideas that the government would ever effectively regulate technology companies was at best a fantasy or a pipe dream, and now it seems to be happening in real time, albeit slowly. And this also comes at a time when people are questioning whether the judiciary will continue to be, you know, a functioning pillar of government. But right now, at least in the realm of business, it sure is. Back In twenty twenty, the Federal Trade Commission sued Meta, as you said, and if you recall, Meta had previously purchased Instagram and WhatsApp in the years leading up to this. The FTC argued that Meta had acquired these companies specifically in order to strangle competition, which is illegal under anti trust laws.

Yeah, the lastuit began on Monday in federal court, and over the next many weeks, DC will be filled with some star witnesses, including Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, who took the stand this week.

Yeah, the lastuit began on Monday in federal court, and over the next many weeks, DC will be filled with some star witnesses, including Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, who took the stand this week.

Hit Hops Understand how we got here and what's going to come next? Is Naomi Nicks. She's a staff writer at The Washington Post, where she covers social media companies, particularly Meta. So Naomi, I can imagine this has been an absolutely crazy week for you.

Hit Hops Understand how we got here and what's going to come next? Is Naomi Nicks. She's a staff writer at The Washington Post, where she covers social media companies, particularly Meta. So Naomi, I can imagine this has been an absolutely crazy week for you.

Yes, it's been very busy, but it's been very interesting.

Yes, it's been very busy, but it's been very interesting.

I can only imagine. But take us back to twenty twenty when the FTC sued Meta and how this will begin.

I can only imagine. But take us back to twenty twenty when the FTC sued Meta and how this will begin.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So remember at the time, there was a lot of conversation among regulators about whether big tech companies had gotten too big, right, whether they had stifled competition from upstarts, whether they were prefacing their products over potential competitors, and so a lot of big tech companies were sort of wrapped up in that uproar and Meta was one of them. And back then the FTC under the tail end of Donald Trump's administration, sued Meta, challenging to break the company up apart from Instagram and WhatsApp, and we've been sort of locked into this anti trust battle ever since.

So remember at the time, there was a lot of conversation among regulators about whether big tech companies had gotten too big, right, whether they had stifled competition from upstarts, whether they were prefacing their products over potential competitors, and so a lot of big tech companies were sort of wrapped up in that uproar and Meta was one of them. And back then the FTC under the tail end of Donald Trump's administration, sued Meta, challenging to break the company up apart from Instagram and WhatsApp, and we've been sort of locked into this anti trust battle ever since.

So this is a continuation of that same case.

So this is a continuation of that same case.

It is.

It is.

So what happened was the judge initially put out a ruling that said, you know, I don't think the FTC has given enough evidence to establish that there's really a case here. And so when the Bide administration took over, Amena Khan was chair of the FTC, the commission filed an amended lawsuit and at that point the courts allowed it to proceed, and you know, they said, look, I think you now have established enough evidence that there is a potential case that Meta has a monopoly and the personal social networking market.

So what happened was the judge initially put out a ruling that said, you know, I don't think the FTC has given enough evidence to establish that there's really a case here. And so when the Bide administration took over, Amena Khan was chair of the FTC, the commission filed an amended lawsuit and at that point the courts allowed it to proceed, and you know, they said, look, I think you now have established enough evidence that there is a potential case that Meta has a monopoly and the personal social networking market.

So this is potentially bipartisan enforcement, which I want to come back to. But just first off, as somebody who hasn't been following this that closely, why were Meta allowed to buy Instagram in twenty twelve and WhatsApp in twenty fourteen and didn't the regulators in a sense like, isn't this a case of building a stable after the horse has gone? If they didn't block these transactions at the time.

So this is potentially bipartisan enforcement, which I want to come back to. But just first off, as somebody who hasn't been following this that closely, why were Meta allowed to buy Instagram in twenty twelve and WhatsApp in twenty fourteen and didn't the regulators in a sense like, isn't this a case of building a stable after the horse has gone? If they didn't block these transactions at the time.

That's certainly a case in an argument that Meta has been making. They're like, you know, one of the dangers, they argue, is that what the message of the FTC is sending to the general marketplace is that that no merger is final. That after an anti trust regulator deems like, yeah, you're allowed to buy that market, that a decade after the fact, they can decide to change their minds. And in some ways that is what's happening here. But I do think the politics around anti trust law and the conversation about whether the United States anti trust laws are up to date with the current technology industry. Is one of the reasons both Republican and Democratic nominated anti trust regulators have been willing to take a chance in this case.

That's certainly a case in an argument that Meta has been making. They're like, you know, one of the dangers, they argue, is that what the message of the FTC is sending to the general marketplace is that that no merger is final. That after an anti trust regulator deems like, yeah, you're allowed to buy that market, that a decade after the fact, they can decide to change their minds. And in some ways that is what's happening here. But I do think the politics around anti trust law and the conversation about whether the United States anti trust laws are up to date with the current technology industry. Is one of the reasons both Republican and Democratic nominated anti trust regulators have been willing to take a chance in this case.

So you've been in the courtroom the past few days. What is the FTC's argument against Meta right now?

So you've been in the courtroom the past few days. What is the FTC's argument against Meta right now?

They're making a couple of points. One is they're saying, look, we actually think that Meta has a monopoly. And what the FTC has decided is called a personal social networking market that's mostly relying a market of tech pokforms that are designed to facilitate person communication among your friends and families. And so what the FTC is saying is they actually think that Meta's next biggest competitor is Snapchat. They don't include TikTok in that, they don't include YouTube, in that they don't include x in that they're saying that Meta has a monopoly in that market. And they're saying that the company acted anti competitively when it bought WhatsApp and Instagram. And they rely on a lot of internal emails to suggest that the goal that Mark Zuckerberg had at the time wasn't necessarily to improve Instagram or to help users have more choice in the social media market, but to neutralize a potential competitor. And they're saying that all those actions have hurt consumers, that if Meta hadn't done these things, that we as Internet users would have more vibrant social media options at our disposal.

They're making a couple of points. One is they're saying, look, we actually think that Meta has a monopoly. And what the FTC has decided is called a personal social networking market that's mostly relying a market of tech pokforms that are designed to facilitate person communication among your friends and families. And so what the FTC is saying is they actually think that Meta's next biggest competitor is Snapchat. They don't include TikTok in that, they don't include YouTube, in that they don't include x in that they're saying that Meta has a monopoly in that market. And they're saying that the company acted anti competitively when it bought WhatsApp and Instagram. And they rely on a lot of internal emails to suggest that the goal that Mark Zuckerberg had at the time wasn't necessarily to improve Instagram or to help users have more choice in the social media market, but to neutralize a potential competitor. And they're saying that all those actions have hurt consumers, that if Meta hadn't done these things, that we as Internet users would have more vibrant social media options at our disposal.

What is Meta's counter argument here?

What is Meta's counter argument here?

They say that the FTC misses the mark when it defines the marketplace, that they're not just competing agains Snapchat, that they are competing against TikTok and YouTube and all these other Internet platforms, and that that ecosystem is robust and vibrant.

They say that the FTC misses the mark when it defines the marketplace, that they're not just competing agains Snapchat, that they are competing against TikTok and YouTube and all these other Internet platforms, and that that ecosystem is robust and vibrant.

The attention economy, so to speak.

The attention economy, so to speak.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, Mark Zuckerberg earlier sort of talked to the court about how when TikTok was rising, the company really had to double down and introduce its own product called Instagram Reels, right, and that that has been a competitive space for the company ever since. As a piece of evidence to show that like this industry is quite thriving.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, Mark Zuckerberg earlier sort of talked to the court about how when TikTok was rising, the company really had to double down and introduce its own product called Instagram Reels, right, and that that has been a competitive space for the company ever since. As a piece of evidence to show that like this industry is quite thriving.

Now without getting to inside baseball, I mean, the history of antitrust in the last few years before Lee Na Khan came in as the FTC chair under President Biden was basically all around consumer price like harm was defined as consumers having to pay more because of monopoly. However, meta services are free. And I think one of the interesting things here is the FTC d position visa via the tech industry was considered to be a big reason why the tech industry broke for Trump so dramatically in the most recent election. So there's a kind of irony here around the kind of the FTC's theory of the case being so consistent with how the lots of administration viewed regulating monopolies. Can you speak a little bit about.

Now without getting to inside baseball, I mean, the history of antitrust in the last few years before Lee Na Khan came in as the FTC chair under President Biden was basically all around consumer price like harm was defined as consumers having to pay more because of monopoly. However, meta services are free. And I think one of the interesting things here is the FTC d position visa via the tech industry was considered to be a big reason why the tech industry broke for Trump so dramatically in the most recent election. So there's a kind of irony here around the kind of the FTC's theory of the case being so consistent with how the lots of administration viewed regulating monopolies. Can you speak a little bit about.

That, Yeah, I mean it's interesting. There's both sort of a political element here and a legal element. It is true that, like the courts have traditionally relied on price as a measure of harm, and what they're doing here is kind of novel. They're saying, actually, we think harm can be measured in the fact that, you know, meta maybe didn't improve users' privacy. You know, what are the points they've made in their opening arguments. Was like after Cambridge Analytica, consumers were really unhappy with Facebook and yet they still used it, which means they didn't have enough options. But I think there is a political element here. To your point, which is the tech companies and Meta. Mark Zuckerberg in particular made a big bet on Trump right in the election, and you know we've reported and other news outlets have reported that, you know, he went to the White House in hopes to encourage the Trump administration to encourage the FTC to resolve the lawsuit before a trial, but was ultimately unsuccessful. In order to drive this point home, remember back to when Trump was first elected in twenty sixteen, how the tech industry reacted then, right like we saw them come together and form forward the Immigration Reform Organization. There was really this sort of groundswell of activity by the tech industry both workerwed but also CEO led to be willing to kind of stand the ground in the face of potential attacks from the Trump administration. And this time around we saw much different tone. Right, So, Mark Zuckerberg called Trump a badass during the campaign over how he handled the shooting attempt on his life. The company gave a million dollars to the inauguration committee, he dined with Trump, and then I think in January he backed up that rhetoric with a lot of policy. They scrapped the fact checking program, the NDDI programs. He said in a video that they were hoping to partner with the Trump administration to go after international regulators who are introducing what he terms was like onerous regulations. And so the tone has been really, really remarkably positive and has attracted some compliments from Trump allies and Trump himself, But the compliments only go so far. What the company obviously wants is regulations to change, and so that so far hasn't been an outcome of this olive branch from Mark Zuckerberg and Meta. And I think this latest trial is another piece of evidence that the companies haven't yet, to put it crudely, gotten what they've paid for.

That, Yeah, I mean it's interesting. There's both sort of a political element here and a legal element. It is true that, like the courts have traditionally relied on price as a measure of harm, and what they're doing here is kind of novel. They're saying, actually, we think harm can be measured in the fact that, you know, meta maybe didn't improve users' privacy. You know, what are the points they've made in their opening arguments. Was like after Cambridge Analytica, consumers were really unhappy with Facebook and yet they still used it, which means they didn't have enough options. But I think there is a political element here. To your point, which is the tech companies and Meta. Mark Zuckerberg in particular made a big bet on Trump right in the election, and you know we've reported and other news outlets have reported that, you know, he went to the White House in hopes to encourage the Trump administration to encourage the FTC to resolve the lawsuit before a trial, but was ultimately unsuccessful. In order to drive this point home, remember back to when Trump was first elected in twenty sixteen, how the tech industry reacted then, right like we saw them come together and form forward the Immigration Reform Organization. There was really this sort of groundswell of activity by the tech industry both workerwed but also CEO led to be willing to kind of stand the ground in the face of potential attacks from the Trump administration. And this time around we saw much different tone. Right, So, Mark Zuckerberg called Trump a badass during the campaign over how he handled the shooting attempt on his life. The company gave a million dollars to the inauguration committee, he dined with Trump, and then I think in January he backed up that rhetoric with a lot of policy. They scrapped the fact checking program, the NDDI programs. He said in a video that they were hoping to partner with the Trump administration to go after international regulators who are introducing what he terms was like onerous regulations. And so the tone has been really, really remarkably positive and has attracted some compliments from Trump allies and Trump himself, But the compliments only go so far. What the company obviously wants is regulations to change, and so that so far hasn't been an outcome of this olive branch from Mark Zuckerberg and Meta. And I think this latest trial is another piece of evidence that the companies haven't yet, to put it crudely, gotten what they've paid for.

So can you tell us a little bit about the atmosphere in the courtroom this week? You know, we're taping middanday. What have the first few days been like in the courtroom.

So can you tell us a little bit about the atmosphere in the courtroom this week? You know, we're taping middanday. What have the first few days been like in the courtroom.

Cara, sorry to jump on you, but also we all saw the photo of Mark Zuckerberg arriving in what looked like a presidential limousine and was in beast mode wearing his own Meta ray bands, looking very much sho.

Cara, sorry to jump on you, but also we all saw the photo of Mark Zuckerberg arriving in what looked like a presidential limousine and was in beast mode wearing his own Meta ray bands, looking very much sho.

I heard the success in theme music as he arrived to the courtroom.

I heard the success in theme music as he arrived to the courtroom.

It has been you know, on the point about Mark's look, it's been interesting because he's had to look at videos like talking about some of these mergers in the past, and so you're seeing sort of like a new book, you know, looking back in the old version of him. But particularly I think on Tuesday, there was a really heated exchange I think between the FTC lawyer and Mark Zuckerberg, and we saw repeatedly the lawyer really tried to pin Mark Zuckerberg down to essentially admit to some of the reasonings that he weighed out in his emails at the time for wanting to buy Instagram, you know, because the reality is he does talk about it in those competitive terms. Back then, Met at the time was trying to build its own camera app and it wasn't going so well. They were disappointed with the results of that program, and so at the time, Mark is like, maybe we should just like buy Instagram.

It has been you know, on the point about Mark's look, it's been interesting because he's had to look at videos like talking about some of these mergers in the past, and so you're seeing sort of like a new book, you know, looking back in the old version of him. But particularly I think on Tuesday, there was a really heated exchange I think between the FTC lawyer and Mark Zuckerberg, and we saw repeatedly the lawyer really tried to pin Mark Zuckerberg down to essentially admit to some of the reasonings that he weighed out in his emails at the time for wanting to buy Instagram, you know, because the reality is he does talk about it in those competitive terms. Back then, Met at the time was trying to build its own camera app and it wasn't going so well. They were disappointed with the results of that program, and so at the time, Mark is like, maybe we should just like buy Instagram.

Right, I was going to say, in the scheme of things, it's actually much better that they just spent a cool billion dollars to have one of the most popular apps in the app store.

Right, I was going to say, in the scheme of things, it's actually much better that they just spent a cool billion dollars to have one of the most popular apps in the app store.

Yeah, and it is also rapidly becoming their key to retaining a really important audience, which is young people in a way that Facebook is not.

Yeah, and it is also rapidly becoming their key to retaining a really important audience, which is young people in a way that Facebook is not.

Can you talk a little bit more about some of the other high profile cases against big tech that are going on right now, Like where do these lawsuits stand?

Can you talk a little bit more about some of the other high profile cases against big tech that are going on right now, Like where do these lawsuits stand?

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest example is Google, right, you know there Right last year, a federal court century ruled that the Justice Department was right to say that Google violated in a trust clause because it had created these sort of restrictive contracts with Apple and other device makers to essentially require them to install Google as the default search engine on their smartphones anyone. What the judge said is like, you know, this prevented rivals from competing on a level playing field. And so Google had argued, look, actually, our search engine has lots of competition. People are looking for information in lots of different places, whether it's on Amazon and TikTok and Reddit other Internet you know search engines. But essentially the judge ruled against him, and so where we are now is we have to figure out like what the remedy is to that anti trust violation. I think, you know, one of the things that's a little bit easier about that case in this case, which is it probably was easier for the Justice Department to establish that Google had maintained a monopoly in the search business in a way that I think the discussion around what defines social media and what defines the social media market for meta is a little bit more fraught. But this is like one of the biggest wins right for ntrust rigilators against a big tech company in two decades since the Microsoft case. And whether that will continue, whether the Justice firement at FTC and in to circulators around the world will be able to continue to rack up as an open question.

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest example is Google, right, you know there Right last year, a federal court century ruled that the Justice Department was right to say that Google violated in a trust clause because it had created these sort of restrictive contracts with Apple and other device makers to essentially require them to install Google as the default search engine on their smartphones anyone. What the judge said is like, you know, this prevented rivals from competing on a level playing field. And so Google had argued, look, actually, our search engine has lots of competition. People are looking for information in lots of different places, whether it's on Amazon and TikTok and Reddit other Internet you know search engines. But essentially the judge ruled against him, and so where we are now is we have to figure out like what the remedy is to that anti trust violation. I think, you know, one of the things that's a little bit easier about that case in this case, which is it probably was easier for the Justice Department to establish that Google had maintained a monopoly in the search business in a way that I think the discussion around what defines social media and what defines the social media market for meta is a little bit more fraught. But this is like one of the biggest wins right for ntrust rigilators against a big tech company in two decades since the Microsoft case. And whether that will continue, whether the Justice firement at FTC and in to circulators around the world will be able to continue to rack up as an open question.

What I find is so personally fascinating about this story is it has both the drama of the TikTok of week by week politics and of courtroom testimony and stuff, but it also exists in this kind of grander sweep of the history of the twentieth century. I mean, you had IBM subject to anti trust action in the sixties, which led to them unbundling their hardware and software business, which created a software marketplace, which in turn allowed Microsoft to rise. Microsoft intern was subject to anti trust legislation the late nineties early two thousands, which meant that they couldn't force Internet Explorer down consumers throats who were using Windows operating system. This in turn allowed Google to emerge, and now Google and Meta are facing antitrust action of their own. So I was wondering if you can kind of reflect on where this sits in the history of tech and government.

What I find is so personally fascinating about this story is it has both the drama of the TikTok of week by week politics and of courtroom testimony and stuff, but it also exists in this kind of grander sweep of the history of the twentieth century. I mean, you had IBM subject to anti trust action in the sixties, which led to them unbundling their hardware and software business, which created a software marketplace, which in turn allowed Microsoft to rise. Microsoft intern was subject to anti trust legislation the late nineties early two thousands, which meant that they couldn't force Internet Explorer down consumers throats who were using Windows operating system. This in turn allowed Google to emerge, and now Google and Meta are facing antitrust action of their own. So I was wondering if you can kind of reflect on where this sits in the history of tech and government.

I think at a time when the industry is really focused on artificial intelligence and generative artificial intelligence, these cases that are going on now really have the power to kind of reset the competition among who's going to rise and fall in this marketplace, Who's going to have the ability to make the right deals, make the right mergers in order to assume top place in the AI race, which they all want to do. And I think it's also unclear how a spinoff would affect the company right. There was a really poignant moment on Tuesday in which Mark Zuckerberg is being asked about an internal message he's sent in twenty eighteen where he said, and I'm just going to read the quote as calls to break up the big tech companies grow, there is a non trivial chance that we will be forced to spin out Instagram and perhaps WhatsApp in the next five years. And he later said, well, most companies resist these kinds of breakups, companies actually performed better after they split up. And if you think about it, people might have written Microsoft for dead right years ago after their ANIHS battle. Is anyone really saying that now? No, this is just one part of that story.

I think at a time when the industry is really focused on artificial intelligence and generative artificial intelligence, these cases that are going on now really have the power to kind of reset the competition among who's going to rise and fall in this marketplace, Who's going to have the ability to make the right deals, make the right mergers in order to assume top place in the AI race, which they all want to do. And I think it's also unclear how a spinoff would affect the company right. There was a really poignant moment on Tuesday in which Mark Zuckerberg is being asked about an internal message he's sent in twenty eighteen where he said, and I'm just going to read the quote as calls to break up the big tech companies grow, there is a non trivial chance that we will be forced to spin out Instagram and perhaps WhatsApp in the next five years. And he later said, well, most companies resist these kinds of breakups, companies actually performed better after they split up. And if you think about it, people might have written Microsoft for dead right years ago after their ANIHS battle. Is anyone really saying that now? No, this is just one part of that story.

This is the first week of what might be a two month trial, and we are nowhere near ruling. Just in your opinion as somebody who is attending these things, like what do we think could happen and what are the things that you're looking out for.

This is the first week of what might be a two month trial, and we are nowhere near ruling. Just in your opinion as somebody who is attending these things, like what do we think could happen and what are the things that you're looking out for.

I think one thing I'm going to be really paying attention to is how the judge asks questions about market size, because I think the definition of the market is one of the hardest parts that the FDC has to prove that the market that Meta operates is this sort of personal social networking market, and I'm not sure that the tech industry has understood it that way, and certainly Meta hasn't understood it that way. His own lawyer asked him if he had even heard of that phrase before the FTC's lawsuit.

I think one thing I'm going to be really paying attention to is how the judge asks questions about market size, because I think the definition of the market is one of the hardest parts that the FDC has to prove that the market that Meta operates is this sort of personal social networking market, and I'm not sure that the tech industry has understood it that way, and certainly Meta hasn't understood it that way. His own lawyer asked him if he had even heard of that phrase before the FTC's lawsuit.

She said no.