Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm Osvoloshin and today Kara Price and I will bring you the headlines this week, well tariffs, obviously, but also a dating game. Then on Tech Support, we'll talk to The Wall Street Journal's Family and Tech columnist Julie Jargon about a mother's worst fear, a cry for help over the phone that sounded like her youngest daughter, all of that on the Weekend Tech. It's Friday, April eleventh. Kara, Hello, Hello, Hello, ohs.

Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm Osvoloshin and today Kara Price and I will bring you the headlines this week, well tariffs, obviously, but also a dating game. Then on Tech Support, we'll talk to The Wall Street Journal's Family and Tech columnist Julie Jargon about a mother's worst fear, a cry for help over the phone that sounded like her youngest daughter, all of that on the Weekend Tech. It's Friday, April eleventh. Kara, Hello, Hello, Hello, ohs.

I think I'm going to start this thing called Kara's Hats of the Week. And just for people who can't see me, I'm wearing a hat today that says, and this is from a show called Summer Heatsie. If you ever watched Summerheatsie, I'm a naughty girl with a bad habit.

I think I'm going to start this thing called Kara's Hats of the Week. And just for people who can't see me, I'm wearing a hat today that says, and this is from a show called Summer Heatsie. If you ever watched Summerheatsie, I'm a naughty girl with a bad habit.

What is the bad habit in the.

What is the bad habit in the.

Show, It's for drugs. If I had preempted today's top story, it would have said, with a bad habit for tariffs.

Show, It's for drugs. If I had preempted today's top story, it would have said, with a bad habit for tariffs.

Uh huh. That would have been fast fashion. Indeed, that's a good one. But today's news is all about quote. The most beautiful word in the dictionary.

Uh huh. That would have been fast fashion. Indeed, that's a good one. But today's news is all about quote. The most beautiful word in the dictionary.

Well, I don't know anything about the dictionary, but I looked up the word tariff with chat GPT.

Well, I don't know anything about the dictionary, but I looked up the word tariff with chat GPT.

The Dictionary twenty twenty five correct.

The Dictionary twenty twenty five correct.

Correct, and the thesaurus and also what we'll eventually write someone's wedding vesse. I asked chat Gpt what a tariff is, and she responded because she's a she yea in my book. In your book, a tariff is a tax or fee that a government imposes on imported or exported goods. But most importantly, chat Gpt says tariffs can impact the price of goods, trade relationships, and the global economy.

Correct, and the thesaurus and also what we'll eventually write someone's wedding vesse. I asked chat Gpt what a tariff is, and she responded because she's a she yea in my book. In your book, a tariff is a tax or fee that a government imposes on imported or exported goods. But most importantly, chat Gpt says tariffs can impact the price of goods, trade relationships, and the global economy.

Oh my prophetic soul can and do.

Oh my prophetic soul can and do.

Chat Gipt was onto something there because Trump's tariff announcement definitely shook up the global economy and trade relationships, and everything is still evolving. I mean, there's basically a new update every hour. Just this week, tariffs on about ninety countries went into effect. Then Trump issued a pause on most of them. But the country who's been pummeled the most is China. As of Thursday midday, Trump has increased tariffs on the country's imports by one hundred and twenty five percent. So with everything going on, the technology industry has been feeling some effects.

Chat Gipt was onto something there because Trump's tariff announcement definitely shook up the global economy and trade relationships, and everything is still evolving. I mean, there's basically a new update every hour. Just this week, tariffs on about ninety countries went into effect. Then Trump issued a pause on most of them. But the country who's been pummeled the most is China. As of Thursday midday, Trump has increased tariffs on the country's imports by one hundred and twenty five percent. So with everything going on, the technology industry has been feeling some effects.

There's a headline in the Washington Post earlier this week that was delicious in its understated irony. Big tech bet on Trump. It's still waiting for the payoff.

There's a headline in the Washington Post earlier this week that was delicious in its understated irony. Big tech bet on Trump. It's still waiting for the payoff.

I'm just thinking about when we first started this version of tech stuff. All of those tech bros were at the inauguration, and now they're all scrambling to rethink their supply chains.

I'm just thinking about when we first started this version of tech stuff. All of those tech bros were at the inauguration, and now they're all scrambling to rethink their supply chains.

But it's also about the threat of reciprocal tariffs. And in that Washington Post story, the writers quip those tech giants are in another front row, lol, not the front row the inauguration as targets for US trade partners looking for ways to strike back at the US economy.

But it's also about the threat of reciprocal tariffs. And in that Washington Post story, the writers quip those tech giants are in another front row, lol, not the front row the inauguration as targets for US trade partners looking for ways to strike back at the US economy.

Yeah. I heard at one point the EU is considering tariffs on digital products like Netflix subscriptions and Google Cloud storage, which I honestly didn't even know was possible. But another area of concern for the tech industry is how these tariffs will affect semiconductors, because they really do power the modern world. Everything from consumer tech, data centers, even cars, they all use semiconductors.

Yeah. I heard at one point the EU is considering tariffs on digital products like Netflix subscriptions and Google Cloud storage, which I honestly didn't even know was possible. But another area of concern for the tech industry is how these tariffs will affect semiconductors, because they really do power the modern world. Everything from consumer tech, data centers, even cars, they all use semiconductors.

And here's where the kind of ironies continue to abound, because, of course, you know, President Trump has made AI supremacy a key element of his policy for this term, and so technically the tariffs announce an exemption for semiconductors, but as it turns out, many of the semiconductors imported are actually bundled into other products like GPU chips and service to train AI models. That's per wired to have a story under the headline Trump's tariffs are threatening the US semiconductor revival. Wide also points out that all of the machinery and the underlying materials to manufacture semiconductors here in the US will become far more expensive with these tariffs make it less attractive to manufacture domestically.

And here's where the kind of ironies continue to abound, because, of course, you know, President Trump has made AI supremacy a key element of his policy for this term, and so technically the tariffs announce an exemption for semiconductors, but as it turns out, many of the semiconductors imported are actually bundled into other products like GPU chips and service to train AI models. That's per wired to have a story under the headline Trump's tariffs are threatening the US semiconductor revival. Wide also points out that all of the machinery and the underlying materials to manufacture semiconductors here in the US will become far more expensive with these tariffs make it less attractive to manufacture domestically.

Yeah, you know this is a little bit heady, but needless to say, it is a consumer tech story. You know, there are many articles circulating about how these tariffs could affect the price of something as ubiquitous as the iPhone.

Yeah, you know this is a little bit heady, but needless to say, it is a consumer tech story. You know, there are many articles circulating about how these tariffs could affect the price of something as ubiquitous as the iPhone.

Have you been stoking up for your ebase sales.

Have you been stoking up for your ebase sales.

Of my iPhone? Oh to sell iPhones? Oh yeah, it's not a bad idea. Actually, I hadn't thought about it, you know. And just to give a shout out to four A form Meta who we love, you know, they pointed out that on Apple's own supply chain website. The big beautiful bold text that overlays the video of people making iPhones in a factory says, designed by Apple in California, made by people everywhere. And it's true, you know, as a device exemplifies globalization. The materials for the batteries come from one country, the display from another. Almost every part of the iPhone comes from a different country, and then they are predominantly assembled in China. So if things go the way they're going and tariffs on Chinese imports remain, these phones could get a lot more expensive. And I'm going to get the burner phone that I plan on getting the summer anyway.

Of my iPhone? Oh to sell iPhones? Oh yeah, it's not a bad idea. Actually, I hadn't thought about it, you know. And just to give a shout out to four A form Meta who we love, you know, they pointed out that on Apple's own supply chain website. The big beautiful bold text that overlays the video of people making iPhones in a factory says, designed by Apple in California, made by people everywhere. And it's true, you know, as a device exemplifies globalization. The materials for the batteries come from one country, the display from another. Almost every part of the iPhone comes from a different country, and then they are predominantly assembled in China. So if things go the way they're going and tariffs on Chinese imports remain, these phones could get a lot more expensive. And I'm going to get the burner phone that I plan on getting the summer anyway.

Okay, good, Yeah, Well this will be another inducement for us to get dumb phones, but that that might be enough for us on Tarish this week. I feel this is probably something going to be coming back to again and again. So time for a game.

Okay, good, Yeah, Well this will be another inducement for us to get dumb phones, but that that might be enough for us on Tarish this week. I feel this is probably something going to be coming back to again and again. So time for a game.

I have been sitting on my hands for this entire show as we talk about tariffs, to play a game with you that came out last week for April Fools. I will catch people up a little bit. Last week, Tinder launched an in app game called The Game Game.

I have been sitting on my hands for this entire show as we talk about tariffs, to play a game with you that came out last week for April Fools. I will catch people up a little bit. Last week, Tinder launched an in app game called The Game Game.

The Game Game it sounds a bit like that seventies dating show, the dating game with a sprinkle of my hero Neil Strauss.

The Game Game it sounds a bit like that seventies dating show, the dating game with a sprinkle of my hero Neil Strauss.

I think they were definitely going for seventies dating show. I don't think they were going for a sprinkle of Neil Strauss. But that's your drama. So basically, Open AI's Chat, GPT four oh and Tinder partner together to create this thing called the Game Game, which allows real Tinder users to enter pretend scenarios and talk to AI characters.

I think they were definitely going for seventies dating show. I don't think they were going for a sprinkle of Neil Strauss. But that's your drama. So basically, Open AI's Chat, GPT four oh and Tinder partner together to create this thing called the Game Game, which allows real Tinder users to enter pretend scenarios and talk to AI characters.

This was a meet cute between chat ChiPT and Tinder, good one if you will.

This was a meet cute between chat ChiPT and Tinder, good one if you will.

It was a me cute between altman and Tinder. Absolutely, But there's also a competitive part of the game, which is that as you talk into your phone, you try your best to flirt with the AI, and you get points for how suave or empathetic or interesting your responses are. And here's how it works. You entered a preferred scenario like I'm on a train and my shoes untied and a man says, miss, your shoes untied and I say, sir, I'm into women. That would be the end of that. But no, if I were straight, he would say, mam, your shoes untied and I'd look up and it would get no. But our producer Tory actually played it and she talked to a character named Nathan, who was interested in technology and had a Southern accent. But after their conversation ended, Tinder told Tory that her replies were charming, but that her conversation could have fload a little better as she jumped between topics too quickly. Now, as a producer, that's a great quality.

It was a me cute between altman and Tinder. Absolutely, But there's also a competitive part of the game, which is that as you talk into your phone, you try your best to flirt with the AI, and you get points for how suave or empathetic or interesting your responses are. And here's how it works. You entered a preferred scenario like I'm on a train and my shoes untied and a man says, miss, your shoes untied and I say, sir, I'm into women. That would be the end of that. But no, if I were straight, he would say, mam, your shoes untied and I'd look up and it would get no. But our producer Tory actually played it and she talked to a character named Nathan, who was interested in technology and had a Southern accent. But after their conversation ended, Tinder told Tory that her replies were charming, but that her conversation could have fload a little better as she jumped between topics too quickly. Now, as a producer, that's a great quality.

Yeah, exactly, short attention span. I think Tory may have had it right and the and the app wrong, but I would love to hear you try it.

Yeah, exactly, short attention span. I think Tory may have had it right and the and the app wrong, but I would love to hear you try it.

My phone is ready and Tinder is downloaded. So let's the game game. So what happens first is the prompt comes up in the game. It's in the Tinder app.

My phone is ready and Tinder is downloaded. So let's the game game. So what happens first is the prompt comes up in the game. It's in the Tinder app.

Well, I mean, let's not pass over this soundtrack and loving it.

Well, I mean, let's not pass over this soundtrack and loving it.

It's fantastic.

It's fantastic.

This is like old New York.

This is like old New York.

We're going to Cafe Carlisle for a drink and a smoke. Okay, I'm done, but let me read you the prompt so we can start the game.

We're going to Cafe Carlisle for a drink and a smoke. Okay, I'm done, but let me read you the prompt so we can start the game.

Okay.

Okay.

And by the way, it lets you re roll, so if you don't like the person you're introduced to, it gives you another prompt, which I don't think should happen. I think you should happen. But that's how Tinder works, That's how chatchy be T four zero works. At a bustling dog park, your curious dog eagerly runs up to Penelope, a customer service representative, and starts playing with her dog.

And by the way, it lets you re roll, so if you don't like the person you're introduced to, it gives you another prompt, which I don't think should happen. I think you should happen. But that's how Tinder works, That's how chatchy be T four zero works. At a bustling dog park, your curious dog eagerly runs up to Penelope, a customer service representative, and starts playing with her dog.

How does your dog know what Penelope's job is? Oh, you find that out later.

How does your dog know what Penelope's job is? Oh, you find that out later.

Hello, get my dog's like? Whoa, she's in customer service. You should chase her down. No, and so my dog goes up to Penelope's dog and starts playing with her dog. This unexpected encounter creates the perfect excuse to strike up a conversation with the one and only Penelope from Customer Service. Let's go, I'm not rerolling, I'm taking my first card.

Hello, get my dog's like? Whoa, she's in customer service. You should chase her down. No, and so my dog goes up to Penelope's dog and starts playing with her dog. This unexpected encounter creates the perfect excuse to strike up a conversation with the one and only Penelope from Customer Service. Let's go, I'm not rerolling, I'm taking my first card.

Well, hey, there looks like your dog's got quite a bit of energy, don't they. My pup here is pretty friendly too. Seems they're getting along just fine.

Well, hey, there looks like your dog's got quite a bit of energy, don't they. My pup here is pretty friendly too. Seems they're getting along just fine.

What's their name? My dog's name is Astrid Pastrid.

What's their name? My dog's name is Astrid Pastrid.

Huh, that's a fun name. Seems like an estrid. It's a real social butterfly. Does she usually make friends this quick?

Huh, that's a fun name. Seems like an estrid. It's a real social butterfly. Does she usually make friends this quick?

Honestly? No, your dog is the first dog she's ever taken any interest in her? Well, ain't that something special?

Honestly? No, your dog is the first dog she's ever taken any interest in her? Well, ain't that something special?

Looks like they found the money today.

Looks like they found the money today.

Must be a good match.

Must be a good match.

Maybe Astrid knows a kindred spirit when she sees one.

Maybe Astrid knows a kindred spirit when she sees one.

So how often do you come to the park. I've tried to go to the dog park more now because Astroid's gotten kind of crazy inside, so have I I mean, post COVID it's really hard to get outside even now. Why I hear you. It's been tough all around.

So how often do you come to the park. I've tried to go to the dog park more now because Astroid's gotten kind of crazy inside, so have I I mean, post COVID it's really hard to get outside even now. Why I hear you. It's been tough all around.

The fresh air and space can do wonders for both you and Astro. Charleston's got a lot of beauty if you take time to notice it.

The fresh air and space can do wonders for both you and Astro. Charleston's got a lot of beauty if you take time to notice it.

You know.

You know.

Pela. Sorry, Penelte, I'm so sorry to cut you off.

Pela. Sorry, Penelte, I'm so sorry to cut you off.

No worries at all, I understand it. I don't want to chat about the park or just need a friendly here. I'm here.

No worries at all, I understand it. I don't want to chat about the park or just need a friendly here. I'm here.

Take care of yourself and Astrid. Penelope, would you be interested in either giving me or getting Did she go away? Oh you're still here, Penelope? Sorry, so Penelope, I want another go But he just like girl.

Take care of yourself and Astrid. Penelope, would you be interested in either giving me or getting Did she go away? Oh you're still here, Penelope? Sorry, so Penelope, I want another go But he just like girl.

You have no no. I like the way you dropped your voice a little bit.

You have no no. I like the way you dropped your voice a little bit.

Wait, do you want to try it? We have to have things to do on the show, but that's really how it goes. CHATPG is kind of incredible. So guys, that is the game game.

Wait, do you want to try it? We have to have things to do on the show, but that's really how it goes. CHATPG is kind of incredible. So guys, that is the game game.

I love the game game. I'm also curious as to why both your and Torri's match as a Southern accent is. Is this a subtle kind of white loticification of society.

I love the game game. I'm also curious as to why both your and Torri's match as a Southern accent is. Is this a subtle kind of white loticification of society.

Where chat GPT four roh is just like, you know what, they're getting Southern girls and that's about it, or southern boys. In the case of Tory, Nathan was southern. I live in New York and one of the things that I saw come up and I was talking to Penelope was plus plus empathetic. Now, if I was talking to New York, I would have been like, yo, girl, what's up. I'm talking to Penelope. I'm like, well, girl, would you like to meet me at the park again?

Where chat GPT four roh is just like, you know what, they're getting Southern girls and that's about it, or southern boys. In the case of Tory, Nathan was southern. I live in New York and one of the things that I saw come up and I was talking to Penelope was plus plus empathetic. Now, if I was talking to New York, I would have been like, yo, girl, what's up. I'm talking to Penelope. I'm like, well, girl, would you like to meet me at the park again?

I thought that you're lying about how Astroid had never approached any other dogs. Was I mean that was you gotta make them feel speak.

I thought that you're lying about how Astroid had never approached any other dogs. Was I mean that was you gotta make them feel speak.

I hope this podcast never comes out. I love that more than anything. I will be playing that all day and I think I will, by the end of it have a Southern accent, just to get a little bit more serious about this story. You know, the Washington Post reached out to the vice president of Product Growth and Revenue at Tinder, and she said that the game is meant to be silly and that the company quote leaned into the campiness. Apparently, though, She went on to call gen Z a socially anxious generation, and while the game might be cringe, it's a generation that might look past that if it indeed leads to a real connection.

I hope this podcast never comes out. I love that more than anything. I will be playing that all day and I think I will, by the end of it have a Southern accent, just to get a little bit more serious about this story. You know, the Washington Post reached out to the vice president of Product Growth and Revenue at Tinder, and she said that the game is meant to be silly and that the company quote leaned into the campiness. Apparently, though, She went on to call gen Z a socially anxious generation, and while the game might be cringe, it's a generation that might look past that if it indeed leads to a real connection.

I had to say, I mean, it was definitely fun watching you play. I have never before myself, and I didn't just time either, but I've never had a conversation directly using my voice with an ali before. Was that Was that a first for you or.

I had to say, I mean, it was definitely fun watching you play. I have never before myself, and I didn't just time either, but I've never had a conversation directly using my voice with an ali before. Was that Was that a first for you or.

Only when I tried to scam my cousin? Actually?

Only when I tried to scam my cousin? Actually?

Yeah, yeah?

Yeah, yeah?

So crazy? Is the pressure cooker that that just created for me? Felt like there was literally a gun to my head that was like flirt.

So crazy? Is the pressure cooker that that just created for me? Felt like there was literally a gun to my head that was like flirt.

That's what it felt like. It's getting hot in here. So we're going to take a quick break when we come back some more headlines. Now to pivot back to the headlines, We've got a few more for today, continuing the theme of sex, deaths, and money. Well, no death, thankfully, but we've had sex in the form of flirting now for money taxes.

That's what it felt like. It's getting hot in here. So we're going to take a quick break when we come back some more headlines. Now to pivot back to the headlines, We've got a few more for today, continuing the theme of sex, deaths, and money. Well, no death, thankfully, but we've had sex in the form of flirting now for money taxes.

We know it's tax month, and one of the stories has to do with two things you never want to hear put together, which is IRS and hackathon. And of course what does this start with the Department of Government Efficiency is planning to stage a hackathon event. I sound sad because I am is planning to stage a hackathon event with the best engineers at the Internal Revenue Service. According to Wired, DOE is planning to host dozens of them in DC to build a mega API.

We know it's tax month, and one of the stories has to do with two things you never want to hear put together, which is IRS and hackathon. And of course what does this start with the Department of Government Efficiency is planning to stage a hackathon event. I sound sad because I am is planning to stage a hackathon event with the best engineers at the Internal Revenue Service. According to Wired, DOE is planning to host dozens of them in DC to build a mega API.

A mega API, that's actually what I read process.

A mega API, that's actually what I read process.

It is a MEGAAPI essentially, which would make it easier to access taxpayer data across different applications and cloud platforms.

It is a MEGAAPI essentially, which would make it easier to access taxpayer data across different applications and cloud platforms.

We don't yet have a lot of details on the hackathon, but I do hope they keep it tight because the idea of highly sensitive tax data moving freely between what maybe third party applications is a little frightening. There is a broader controversy roiling the IRS. Several officials, including the acting Commissioner, are quitting over the Trump administration's insistence that the agency disclosed taxpayer information to Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The IRIS has typically kept taxpay information confidential, even from other government agencies, and that includes information submitted by undocumented immigrants. But in a new agreement which appeared redacted in a court filing, ICE officials can now ask the IRS for information about people they're investigating or who've been ordered to leave the US.

We don't yet have a lot of details on the hackathon, but I do hope they keep it tight because the idea of highly sensitive tax data moving freely between what maybe third party applications is a little frightening. There is a broader controversy roiling the IRS. Several officials, including the acting Commissioner, are quitting over the Trump administration's insistence that the agency disclosed taxpayer information to Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The IRIS has typically kept taxpay information confidential, even from other government agencies, and that includes information submitted by undocumented immigrants. But in a new agreement which appeared redacted in a court filing, ICE officials can now ask the IRS for information about people they're investigating or who've been ordered to leave the US.

And in a story that takes us elsewhere into a topic I am personally obsessed with, which is right to repair laws?

And in a story that takes us elsewhere into a topic I am personally obsessed with, which is right to repair laws?

What does that mean?

What does that mean?

Right to repair law is basically like laws that say that companies have to provide information to people who buy things that teach them how to repair it, so one you're not just buying new things every time they come out, and two that you're able to actually know how to, for example, repair a tractor. I was drawn to this headline from The Verge with the perfect subhead quote, India's repair culture gives new life to dead tech.

Right to repair law is basically like laws that say that companies have to provide information to people who buy things that teach them how to repair it, so one you're not just buying new things every time they come out, and two that you're able to actually know how to, for example, repair a tractor. I was drawn to this headline from The Verge with the perfect subhead quote, India's repair culture gives new life to dead tech.

So we had sex, some money, and we do indeed have.

So we had sex, some money, and we do indeed have.

Oh dead technology, which is about the least sexy thing on the planet. There's a rise of Frankenstein laptops in India. Now, when I say Frankenstein laptops, what do you think?

Oh dead technology, which is about the least sexy thing on the planet. There's a rise of Frankenstein laptops in India. Now, when I say Frankenstein laptops, what do you think?

Uh, gosh, I guess I think about laptops assembled from all different parts.

Uh, gosh, I guess I think about laptops assembled from all different parts.

I thought you were gonna say laptops with two bolts on the side of that, But yes, they're basically resurrected computers made with parts from trash older laptops and other e waste ewtes, meaning trash that is of the electronic variety at a fraction of the price. These laptops are a good option for students, freelancers, or really anyone who needs to be a part of India's growing digital economy but may not be able to afford to participate otherwise.

I thought you were gonna say laptops with two bolts on the side of that, But yes, they're basically resurrected computers made with parts from trash older laptops and other e waste ewtes, meaning trash that is of the electronic variety at a fraction of the price. These laptops are a good option for students, freelancers, or really anyone who needs to be a part of India's growing digital economy but may not be able to afford to participate otherwise.

Yeah, I think I read that you can basically get a functional laptop from one of these one of these Frankenstein laptops for around one hundred US dollars, which is like an eighth of the price of any decent new laptop. So it's pretty cool story.

Yeah, I think I read that you can basically get a functional laptop from one of these one of these Frankenstein laptops for around one hundred US dollars, which is like an eighth of the price of any decent new laptop. So it's pretty cool story.

But these Frankenstein tinkers don't have it so easy. There are actually many global tech giants who restrict access to spare parts or use proprietary hardware, which means people are going through piles of sometimes toxic trash to get the parts, and India's government is beginning to discuss right to repair laws to address this, but progress has been slow.

But these Frankenstein tinkers don't have it so easy. There are actually many global tech giants who restrict access to spare parts or use proprietary hardware, which means people are going through piles of sometimes toxic trash to get the parts, and India's government is beginning to discuss right to repair laws to address this, but progress has been slow.

Final story for this week is about a question I find quite fascinating. What will be the iPhone of ai? Will there be a kind of AI product that becomes so ubiquitous that we forget what life was like before it existed? Well, the iPhone designer himself, Johnny Ive or Sir Johnny I've is working on it. Over a year ago, he and Sam Altman, the CEO of Open Ai, began discussing a device that might bring to life voice enabled AI assistance, partly inspired by Altman's well documented fascination with the movie Her. So. Alman and I have this startup together, Ioproducts that's raised hundreds of millions of dollars and is working on some device concepts, including a quote phone without a screen, although some sources insist that it's in fact not a phone, so the mystery remains. But this into a story in the Information, which is also reporting that Open Ai executives are considering acquiring a startup Ioproducts. This would be a move that could potentially bring the AI giant into more direct competition with Apple. It's not clear where the negotiation is at the moment, but another of these types of XAI X deals perhaps brewing, Although while Altman worked close to you with ive on the project. Is not clear what his economic stake in it.

Final story for this week is about a question I find quite fascinating. What will be the iPhone of ai? Will there be a kind of AI product that becomes so ubiquitous that we forget what life was like before it existed? Well, the iPhone designer himself, Johnny Ive or Sir Johnny I've is working on it. Over a year ago, he and Sam Altman, the CEO of Open Ai, began discussing a device that might bring to life voice enabled AI assistance, partly inspired by Altman's well documented fascination with the movie Her. So. Alman and I have this startup together, Ioproducts that's raised hundreds of millions of dollars and is working on some device concepts, including a quote phone without a screen, although some sources insist that it's in fact not a phone, so the mystery remains. But this into a story in the Information, which is also reporting that Open Ai executives are considering acquiring a startup Ioproducts. This would be a move that could potentially bring the AI giant into more direct competition with Apple. It's not clear where the negotiation is at the moment, but another of these types of XAI X deals perhaps brewing, Although while Altman worked close to you with ive on the project. Is not clear what his economic stake in it.

Maybe if the new phone is not a phone. It begs the question how the next thing that we cover actually is going to happen in a no phone phone universe.

Maybe if the new phone is not a phone. It begs the question how the next thing that we cover actually is going to happen in a no phone phone universe.

You're right, and our next segment is all about scammers, and specifically scam callers who famously use phones and the tech they're using to be more convincing and successful than ever.

You're right, and our next segment is all about scammers, and specifically scam callers who famously use phones and the tech they're using to be more convincing and successful than ever.

Yeah, And one of the things that I can't stop talking about on the show and talked a lot about on Sleepwalkers is how much technological progress and innovation happens in the sort of seedier parts of society. And then it's after everyone hears these sensational stories about criminal ingenuity that the tech is more widely adopted by the general public. But it's actually the illicit use that forges the way.

Yeah, And one of the things that I can't stop talking about on the show and talked a lot about on Sleepwalkers is how much technological progress and innovation happens in the sort of seedier parts of society. And then it's after everyone hears these sensational stories about criminal ingenuity that the tech is more widely adopted by the general public. But it's actually the illicit use that forges the way.

Yeah. I remember, back in twenty nineteen, when we first started covering this stuff together, there was a study that revealed that more than ninety five percent of all deep fake videos on the Internet were non consensual porn.

Yeah. I remember, back in twenty nineteen, when we first started covering this stuff together, there was a study that revealed that more than ninety five percent of all deep fake videos on the Internet were non consensual porn.

Well, I actually didn't even know that three D printing was a consumer tech until I heard that blueprints for three D printed ghost guns were circulating the internet.

Well, I actually didn't even know that three D printing was a consumer tech until I heard that blueprints for three D printed ghost guns were circulating the internet.

Together. We actually ran an experiment a few years ago to create a deep fake of your voice and scam your cousin, and it took us about a week to make that clone with the help of a company called liar Bird that was subsequently acquired by Descript, the software that we use every week to make our podcast. We didn't actually get to the scamming apart, but we did briefly trick Kara's cousin. That was back in twenty nineteen. Since then, the state of the art and the kind of social risks haveally advanced. And here to tell us more is Julie Jargon, the family and tech columnist at the Wall Street Journal. Julie, welcome to Tech Stuff.

Together. We actually ran an experiment a few years ago to create a deep fake of your voice and scam your cousin, and it took us about a week to make that clone with the help of a company called liar Bird that was subsequently acquired by Descript, the software that we use every week to make our podcast. We didn't actually get to the scamming apart, but we did briefly trick Kara's cousin. That was back in twenty nineteen. Since then, the state of the art and the kind of social risks haveally advanced. And here to tell us more is Julie Jargon, the family and tech columnist at the Wall Street Journal. Julie, welcome to Tech Stuff.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

So, just to begin, your article tells the story of a woman who gets a terrifying call. Can you tell us a little bit more about what happened in this exchange?

So, just to begin, your article tells the story of a woman who gets a terrifying call. Can you tell us a little bit more about what happened in this exchange?

Yeah, absolutely So. There was a woman in Colorado by the name of Linda Rohan, and she was just at home one night making herself dinner, and her phone rang her cell phone and the caller ID showed that the call was from a local number, so she thought it might be someone she should talk to, so she picked it up and immediately heard a voice of a young woman that she thought sounded exactly like the youngest of her three adult daughters, a panicked, you know message, Mom, I'm okay, but something awful has happened and she's sobbing and saying she needs help. And that immediately put this woman on high alert. And then apparently a man took the phone and mentioned the name of her daughter by you know by name, and said that she had witnessed this drug deal and she screamed and it scared the buyers away, and so now he was out all this money, and he had pulled this girl into his van and now was demanding money.

Yeah, absolutely So. There was a woman in Colorado by the name of Linda Rohan, and she was just at home one night making herself dinner, and her phone rang her cell phone and the caller ID showed that the call was from a local number, so she thought it might be someone she should talk to, so she picked it up and immediately heard a voice of a young woman that she thought sounded exactly like the youngest of her three adult daughters, a panicked, you know message, Mom, I'm okay, but something awful has happened and she's sobbing and saying she needs help. And that immediately put this woman on high alert. And then apparently a man took the phone and mentioned the name of her daughter by you know by name, and said that she had witnessed this drug deal and she screamed and it scared the buyers away, and so now he was out all this money, and he had pulled this girl into his van and now was demanding money.

We know that this wasn't Linda's real daughter. Where was Linda's daughter actually during this.

We know that this wasn't Linda's real daughter. Where was Linda's daughter actually during this.

She was in her apartment the whole time, safe at home.

She was in her apartment the whole time, safe at home.

And can you talk a little bit about how this happened.

And can you talk a little bit about how this happened.

I think what happens with these kind of callers is they operate on fear and a sense of urgency. And this scammer had an elaborate story that he kind of kept this woman through this whole time. He told her that he needed money in order to free her daughter. He told her to go to Walmart and wire money. And so she gets in her car and finds the nearest Walmart, and he timed how long it took her to get there. When she went to the Walmart, he wanted to be on speaker the whole time, so he had her conceal her phone in her shirt so he could hear the conversation. And you know, I think he'd made some kind of threats to her and you know, her daughter. And when she got to the Walmart, she couldn't do the wire transfer because she didn't have a debit card. So he told her to go home and do it online. And he said, you've got sixteen minutes. If you stop anywhere, I'm going to know, because he knew how long it had taken her to drive there in the first place. And he kept her on the phone this whole time, talking to her, trying to keep her calm, asking her questions. This whole scenario played out for a long time, and she made not one, but two money transfers online in order to obtain her daughter's freedom. And once it was finally over, she called her daughter and found that her daughter was safe in her apartments.

I think what happens with these kind of callers is they operate on fear and a sense of urgency. And this scammer had an elaborate story that he kind of kept this woman through this whole time. He told her that he needed money in order to free her daughter. He told her to go to Walmart and wire money. And so she gets in her car and finds the nearest Walmart, and he timed how long it took her to get there. When she went to the Walmart, he wanted to be on speaker the whole time, so he had her conceal her phone in her shirt so he could hear the conversation. And you know, I think he'd made some kind of threats to her and you know, her daughter. And when she got to the Walmart, she couldn't do the wire transfer because she didn't have a debit card. So he told her to go home and do it online. And he said, you've got sixteen minutes. If you stop anywhere, I'm going to know, because he knew how long it had taken her to drive there in the first place. And he kept her on the phone this whole time, talking to her, trying to keep her calm, asking her questions. This whole scenario played out for a long time, and she made not one, but two money transfers online in order to obtain her daughter's freedom. And once it was finally over, she called her daughter and found that her daughter was safe in her apartments.

It was such a striking story because it had this kind of cinematic quality. I mean's actually like a movie. The guy is playing a version of her daughter's voice, making her literally drive from a to b, having her conceal a phone in her clothes. I mean, there's fifteen twenty thirty forty five minutes, all the while she thinks that her daughter has been abducted by a drug dealer. I mean, what did that do to the mother? And when you were into viewing her and what does she reflect about the experience?

It was such a striking story because it had this kind of cinematic quality. I mean's actually like a movie. The guy is playing a version of her daughter's voice, making her literally drive from a to b, having her conceal a phone in her clothes. I mean, there's fifteen twenty thirty forty five minutes, all the while she thinks that her daughter has been abducted by a drug dealer. I mean, what did that do to the mother? And when you were into viewing her and what does she reflect about the experience?

Yeah, she described it as something that she can still feel viscerally like. She retold the story to me three times over the course of a few different conversations with her, as I went through the story again and again with her, and I could tell each time I talk to her that she felt really nervous and worked up about it, even though she knows it was all a scam, even though she knows that her daughter was never in any actual danger, but this whole ordeal was so terrifying to her. And then that's of course why these scammers are so effective, that they prey on the fear of people thinking that they have a loved one, especially a child who might be in some sort of danger. So, even though she's now more than a month removed from the situation, still in the retelling she feels very like physically nervous and scared.

Yeah, she described it as something that she can still feel viscerally like. She retold the story to me three times over the course of a few different conversations with her, as I went through the story again and again with her, and I could tell each time I talk to her that she felt really nervous and worked up about it, even though she knows it was all a scam, even though she knows that her daughter was never in any actual danger, but this whole ordeal was so terrifying to her. And then that's of course why these scammers are so effective, that they prey on the fear of people thinking that they have a loved one, especially a child who might be in some sort of danger. So, even though she's now more than a month removed from the situation, still in the retelling she feels very like physically nervous and scared.

Well, she's not surprising because the tension was kind of resting up. And then just when she thought that she'd made the payment everything was okay, there was a kind of not the tone of the screw right right.

Well, she's not surprising because the tension was kind of resting up. And then just when she thought that she'd made the payment everything was okay, there was a kind of not the tone of the screw right right.

She thought it was kind of over. She'd made one transfer of a thousand dollars, and then there was a commotion and the man on the phone came back and said, well, you know, my boss is angry that it took so long to transfer this money, so we need more. My boss is mad and he thinks he could sell your daughter for thirty thousand dollars. And then at that point she hears her daughter in the background screaming like no, no, you know, please help me, and this woman Linda wanted to talk to her daughter. She pleaded with this man to let her talk to her daughter again, and he said no, but you know, we can end this now if he send another thousand dollars. So then she wired another thousand dollars through a different wire service, and at that point it was finally over.

She thought it was kind of over. She'd made one transfer of a thousand dollars, and then there was a commotion and the man on the phone came back and said, well, you know, my boss is angry that it took so long to transfer this money, so we need more. My boss is mad and he thinks he could sell your daughter for thirty thousand dollars. And then at that point she hears her daughter in the background screaming like no, no, you know, please help me, and this woman Linda wanted to talk to her daughter. She pleaded with this man to let her talk to her daughter again, and he said no, but you know, we can end this now if he send another thousand dollars. So then she wired another thousand dollars through a different wire service, and at that point it was finally over.

It's this kind of incredible intersection of both a new technology, I like the ubiquity of deep fake voices, and a tremendously sophisticated psychological hack, right, I mean it has both elements exactly.

It's this kind of incredible intersection of both a new technology, I like the ubiquity of deep fake voices, and a tremendously sophisticated psychological hack, right, I mean it has both elements exactly.

And these kind of imposter scams have been going on for a long time. I mean years ago, we'd be hearing about grandpa parents getting calls from someone that was claiming to be their grandson. But they usually didn't have a name, they didn't have you know, the voice was like just any young man, you know. And so it's kind of using the same type of social engineering, but ramped up in a more technological way that makes it all the more believable.

And these kind of imposter scams have been going on for a long time. I mean years ago, we'd be hearing about grandpa parents getting calls from someone that was claiming to be their grandson. But they usually didn't have a name, they didn't have you know, the voice was like just any young man, you know. And so it's kind of using the same type of social engineering, but ramped up in a more technological way that makes it all the more believable.

When we come back, we'll hear about the way generative AI makes imposter scams so convincing. Welcome back, So, Julie, I have a lot of friends whose grandparents this has happened to, and it preys on this sort of psychology of oh my god, my grandchild is in trouble, let me help them, without really thinking about how possible it is that this is actually going on. This to your point, is like an extremely ratcheted up version of this, and it begs the question how exactly does something like this work? How has it gotten so much more advanced? And I think most importantly for this show tech stuff is like, how were these people able to replicate Linda's daughter's voice?

When we come back, we'll hear about the way generative AI makes imposter scams so convincing. Welcome back, So, Julie, I have a lot of friends whose grandparents this has happened to, and it preys on this sort of psychology of oh my god, my grandchild is in trouble, let me help them, without really thinking about how possible it is that this is actually going on. This to your point, is like an extremely ratcheted up version of this, and it begs the question how exactly does something like this work? How has it gotten so much more advanced? And I think most importantly for this show tech stuff is like, how were these people able to replicate Linda's daughter's voice?

Well, what we don't know here is whether they in fact cloned her voice from some publicly available audio, you know, whether her daughter had YouTube video out there or some other type of audio or video that they could have grabbed her voice from. She's twenty six, so chances are she she could have. I didn't find any social media accounts that I could access for her. But there are other ways that you can approximate the sound of someone's voice. There are a bunch of apps that are free or very inexpensive on the different app stores that allow you to change your voice. Fifty year old man could change his voice to sound like a twenty year old woman, you know, and you can change the dialect to the accent, and those can be pretty convincing. And the experts I talked to, both psychologists and cybersecurity experts, said that you know when you're in this moment of fear, and you've already gotten this idea in your mind that your daughter is calling you. The first thing they're saying is mom, your mind immediately switches to one of your children. And so if they're able to approximate a voice of a twenty year old woman, then your mind might immediately think that that is your daughter, when it may not be her actual voice or clone of her voice. So in this case, we'll never know how they either got a clone of her voice or whether they use some sort of generative AI to create a voice that sounded like it could be her daughter. And then a couple of the tip offs here is that she wasn't able to interact with the daughter. There were just these clips of sound playing. She didn't have a conversation.

Well, what we don't know here is whether they in fact cloned her voice from some publicly available audio, you know, whether her daughter had YouTube video out there or some other type of audio or video that they could have grabbed her voice from. She's twenty six, so chances are she she could have. I didn't find any social media accounts that I could access for her. But there are other ways that you can approximate the sound of someone's voice. There are a bunch of apps that are free or very inexpensive on the different app stores that allow you to change your voice. Fifty year old man could change his voice to sound like a twenty year old woman, you know, and you can change the dialect to the accent, and those can be pretty convincing. And the experts I talked to, both psychologists and cybersecurity experts, said that you know when you're in this moment of fear, and you've already gotten this idea in your mind that your daughter is calling you. The first thing they're saying is mom, your mind immediately switches to one of your children. And so if they're able to approximate a voice of a twenty year old woman, then your mind might immediately think that that is your daughter, when it may not be her actual voice or clone of her voice. So in this case, we'll never know how they either got a clone of her voice or whether they use some sort of generative AI to create a voice that sounded like it could be her daughter. And then a couple of the tip offs here is that she wasn't able to interact with the daughter. There were just these clips of sound playing. She didn't have a conversation.

This is exactly what we did with my cousin and what she had said to me that was so interesting about this is the thing that tricked her was not that I had this like incredible deep fake, but it was the context. So she didn't really question the fact that it was me, not because it really sounded like me, but because of the context of our conversation. She called me and I picked up, So why shouldn't she think it's me right exactly.

This is exactly what we did with my cousin and what she had said to me that was so interesting about this is the thing that tricked her was not that I had this like incredible deep fake, but it was the context. So she didn't really question the fact that it was me, not because it really sounded like me, but because of the context of our conversation. She called me and I picked up, So why shouldn't she think it's me right exactly.

So what is the scale of this problem?

So what is the scale of this problem?

It's really huge. The Federal Trade Commission said that the number one category of fraud last year was imposter scams. So that doesn't mean that they're all AI generated, but scams in which people are calling, texting, emailing, whatever, impersonating someone that someone knows with some sort of story and a request for money.

It's really huge. The Federal Trade Commission said that the number one category of fraud last year was imposter scams. So that doesn't mean that they're all AI generated, but scams in which people are calling, texting, emailing, whatever, impersonating someone that someone knows with some sort of story and a request for money.

This is something that is incredibly advanced for people who we'd often call petty criminals. Does that mean that the technology has become so ubiquitous that it's very accessible by people we would call petty criminals. It's no longer the thing of like, oh, I'm going to get on the subway and pickpocket someone for the amount of money that you might be able to get for this kind of scam. So I mean not that I think you have a criminal mind, Julie, but I'm wondering, from your perspective as someone who's now reported on this, is this the kind of crime that people who are looking to scam people are engaging it? Is it because it's so easy?

This is something that is incredibly advanced for people who we'd often call petty criminals. Does that mean that the technology has become so ubiquitous that it's very accessible by people we would call petty criminals. It's no longer the thing of like, oh, I'm going to get on the subway and pickpocket someone for the amount of money that you might be able to get for this kind of scam. So I mean not that I think you have a criminal mind, Julie, but I'm wondering, from your perspective as someone who's now reported on this, is this the kind of crime that people who are looking to scam people are engaging it? Is it because it's so easy?

Yeah, it has become a lot easier because of the abiquity of these tools that can do voice clones or AA generated voice approximations of people. All you have to do is google it and you'll find dozens of online tools that are either free or very very inexpensive. Or go on the app store and download a voice changing app. Though it's widely accessible, it's inexpensive, and all it takes is one person who sends two thousand dollars and however long this scenario went on, maybe thirty forty five minutes or whatever, you know, they got two thousand dollars. So you get a few victims over the course of some period of time, and the payout can be pretty sizable.

Yeah, it has become a lot easier because of the abiquity of these tools that can do voice clones or AA generated voice approximations of people. All you have to do is google it and you'll find dozens of online tools that are either free or very very inexpensive. Or go on the app store and download a voice changing app. Though it's widely accessible, it's inexpensive, and all it takes is one person who sends two thousand dollars and however long this scenario went on, maybe thirty forty five minutes or whatever, you know, they got two thousand dollars. So you get a few victims over the course of some period of time, and the payout can be pretty sizable.

Yeah, I think. I mean there's a financial cost to your point about you know, the aftermath for Linda. There's also this tremendous emotional costs, I mean, the trauma of it. I saw a documentary the other day produced by Bloomberg about young teens who are basically the victims of sextortion scam. So somebody pretends to be somebody in their community and gets them to send nude photos and maybe they're looking to get I think hundreds of dollars, but in some cases this pushes the teams to suicide and so it's not like, yes, you have a sense of violation if you get pick pocket on the subway, but this goes to your core of your deepest fears, and I guess maybe that's one of the reasons why your story went so viral. But what can we do and what can listeners do? What can readers do? What is the way to make ourselves a bit more robust in the face of this.

Yeah, I think. I mean there's a financial cost to your point about you know, the aftermath for Linda. There's also this tremendous emotional costs, I mean, the trauma of it. I saw a documentary the other day produced by Bloomberg about young teens who are basically the victims of sextortion scam. So somebody pretends to be somebody in their community and gets them to send nude photos and maybe they're looking to get I think hundreds of dollars, but in some cases this pushes the teams to suicide and so it's not like, yes, you have a sense of violation if you get pick pocket on the subway, but this goes to your core of your deepest fears, and I guess maybe that's one of the reasons why your story went so viral. But what can we do and what can listeners do? What can readers do? What is the way to make ourselves a bit more robust in the face of this.

Well, I do have a column coming out this weekend that will have tips, so I don't want to pre empt to that, but there are things you can do, So.

Well, I do have a column coming out this weekend that will have tips, so I don't want to pre empt to that, but there are things you can do, So.

Stay tuned, read all about it. Yeah, yeah, real about.

Stay tuned, read all about it. Yeah, yeah, real about.

It when it comes out. But yeah, I mean, I think just awareness, for one, is a major thing. And I think that's why so many people responded to this, Because you'd talk to anybody and someone knows someone to whom this has happened or something you know very similar, and that shows the scale of the problem. And I think what's unfortunate is that people who are victimized by these scams feel an incredible sense of shame and embarrassment about it. You know, after their mind has calmed down, they can easily go back and see the red flags and they can you know, even when Linda was experiencing this from the beginning, it cossed her mind this could be a scam, but she felt like the stakes were too high to just hang up and call her daughter at that point, because she thought, you know, there was that one kernel of like what if, what if my daughter really has witnessed the drug deal and is in the back of this person's van, and now her life is in my hands.

It when it comes out. But yeah, I mean, I think just awareness, for one, is a major thing. And I think that's why so many people responded to this, Because you'd talk to anybody and someone knows someone to whom this has happened or something you know very similar, and that shows the scale of the problem. And I think what's unfortunate is that people who are victimized by these scams feel an incredible sense of shame and embarrassment about it. You know, after their mind has calmed down, they can easily go back and see the red flags and they can you know, even when Linda was experiencing this from the beginning, it cossed her mind this could be a scam, but she felt like the stakes were too high to just hang up and call her daughter at that point, because she thought, you know, there was that one kernel of like what if, what if my daughter really has witnessed the drug deal and is in the back of this person's van, and now her life is in my hands.

And you don't want to be the mother that avoided this because you think that you're being sort of techno savvy, right, And all of a sudden, yeah, And that's when it really speaks to the sort of core emotional piece of these kind of scams. To Oz's point, it's not just pickpocketing. You know, pickpocketing, you can say, oh, I should have closed up my jacket better, But this is something that is just so much more complicated than that. And also I think has dual use. I just wanted to bring that up quickly, like a lot of these technologies are not just created for bad right, so it's not something that can just be kind of wiped out. Deep fake technology also has some really interesting applications that I think we all benefit from. Now, so it becomes that sort of complicated intersection of like some people are using this to take advantage of people and scam them, and other people are using it to make some really interesting practical applications. So I don't know, I'm curious to see your column, but it's definitely less simple than just get rid of this technology.

And you don't want to be the mother that avoided this because you think that you're being sort of techno savvy, right, And all of a sudden, yeah, And that's when it really speaks to the sort of core emotional piece of these kind of scams. To Oz's point, it's not just pickpocketing. You know, pickpocketing, you can say, oh, I should have closed up my jacket better, But this is something that is just so much more complicated than that. And also I think has dual use. I just wanted to bring that up quickly, like a lot of these technologies are not just created for bad right, so it's not something that can just be kind of wiped out. Deep fake technology also has some really interesting applications that I think we all benefit from. Now, so it becomes that sort of complicated intersection of like some people are using this to take advantage of people and scam them, and other people are using it to make some really interesting practical applications. So I don't know, I'm curious to see your column, but it's definitely less simple than just get rid of this technology.

Well, it's not going away, that's for sure. There are obviously good uses of generative AI and it's definitely here to stay. And my worry is as it gets better and better, especially with video, I just wonder at some point will people be able to receive faith time calls, right video calls where they feel like they're seeing interacting with someone who looks just like their child. Now, how do you then tell that that's not real?

Well, it's not going away, that's for sure. There are obviously good uses of generative AI and it's definitely here to stay. And my worry is as it gets better and better, especially with video, I just wonder at some point will people be able to receive faith time calls, right video calls where they feel like they're seeing interacting with someone who looks just like their child. Now, how do you then tell that that's not real?

Julie, Thank you so much for your time today.

Julie, Thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you, Julie. We'll look forward to that column this Saturday.

Thank you, Julie. We'll look forward to that column this Saturday.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

That's it for this week for TEXTA.

That's it for this week for TEXTA.

I'm Kara Price and I'm mos Vloschen. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis, Victoria Dominguez, and Adriana Tapia. It was executive produced by me, Kara Price and Kate Osborne Kaleidoscope and Katria Novelfi Hot Podcasts. The engineer is Bihit Fraser and Kyle Murdoll makes this episode and he also wrote our theme song.

I'm Kara Price and I'm mos Vloschen. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis, Victoria Dominguez, and Adriana Tapia. It was executive produced by me, Kara Price and Kate Osborne Kaleidoscope and Katria Novelfi Hot Podcasts. The engineer is Bihit Fraser and Kyle Murdoll makes this episode and he also wrote our theme song.

Join us next Wednesday for Textuff the Story, when we will share an in depth conversation with Jenstatsky, creator and writer of the hit HBO Max show hacks Well, chat about if AI is coming for her job and what it's like to make TV. Knowing you're likely battling for attention with a.

Join us next Wednesday for Textuff the Story, when we will share an in depth conversation with Jenstatsky, creator and writer of the hit HBO Max show hacks Well, chat about if AI is coming for her job and what it's like to make TV. Knowing you're likely battling for attention with a.

Second, please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. We love hearing from you

Second, please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. We love hearing from you