Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm Os Voloshin and today Caraen Price and I will bring you the headlines this week, including the future of brain implants. Then on tech Support, we'll talk to four or four Media's Sam Cole about a chatbot program to soothe your heartache.

Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm Os Voloshin and today Caraen Price and I will bring you the headlines this week, including the future of brain implants. Then on tech Support, we'll talk to four or four Media's Sam Cole about a chatbot program to soothe your heartache.

So I don't know. I mean, everyone says this, but it's so a black mirror to me.

So I don't know. I mean, everyone says this, but it's so a black mirror to me.

All of that. On the Week in Tech It's Friday, May twenty.

All of that. On the Week in Tech It's Friday, May twenty.

Third, all right, So I want to tell you about something that happened this weekend when I was hanging around West Chelsea in Manhattan.

Third, all right, So I want to tell you about something that happened this weekend when I was hanging around West Chelsea in Manhattan.

I'm all the It's as I always am.

I'm all the It's as I always am.

So you know about Muji, of.

So you know about Muji, of.

Course, Aboutmuji Muji, the Japanese store. There was one about five minutes walk from my house where I grew up in London, and there were all kinds of fancy pens in there, which I wanted but never got except for Christmas.

Course, Aboutmuji Muji, the Japanese store. There was one about five minutes walk from my house where I grew up in London, and there were all kinds of fancy pens in there, which I wanted but never got except for Christmas.

The child who covets a pen will grow up to have a podcast. But yeah, you know, Muji Muji is a great Japanese retailer. There's a New York City location in West Chelsea, and I went in there just because you know, I always want to look at the latest and unstructured garments and new bamboo toothbrushes. And I walk into the cafe area which they have, and there are two lines, and I was a little bit confused, like why are there two lines? And I noticed one of the lines is long, right, which is the line for like the regular coffee and pastries, And one of the lines is extremely short. And then I am hearing the motion of a robot arm named Jarvis that's making macha. And unsurprisingly, the line for the robot mancha late is short because you need to be patient if you're going to receive a robot mancho.

The child who covets a pen will grow up to have a podcast. But yeah, you know, Muji Muji is a great Japanese retailer. There's a New York City location in West Chelsea, and I went in there just because you know, I always want to look at the latest and unstructured garments and new bamboo toothbrushes. And I walk into the cafe area which they have, and there are two lines, and I was a little bit confused, like why are there two lines? And I noticed one of the lines is long, right, which is the line for like the regular coffee and pastries, And one of the lines is extremely short. And then I am hearing the motion of a robot arm named Jarvis that's making macha. And unsurprisingly, the line for the robot mancha late is short because you need to be patient if you're going to receive a robot mancho.

Li regular Barista.

Li regular Barista.

Yes, I just want to explain this robot arm is not a curerig. Okay, this is like if a human arm was disembodied, turned into a cyborg given one of those steel cups that we notice Barista's used to pour stuff and to make macha with, and is just on its own, powered by computing power and serving macha to I guess incredibly enthusiastic tourists who like can't believe their Uncanny Valley eyes that there is a robot that is delivering macha to them, and not only delivering masha to them, referring to them by their first names, because you have to put in your first name. So by the end of the macha making experience, there like your macha is ready, Elise, and Elise is like Elise can barely pick up her macha because she's like making a TikTok of this robot who's giving her the macha. You know what I mean. I'm like, don't spill Jarvis as much.

Yes, I just want to explain this robot arm is not a curerig. Okay, this is like if a human arm was disembodied, turned into a cyborg given one of those steel cups that we notice Barista's used to pour stuff and to make macha with, and is just on its own, powered by computing power and serving macha to I guess incredibly enthusiastic tourists who like can't believe their Uncanny Valley eyes that there is a robot that is delivering macha to them, and not only delivering masha to them, referring to them by their first names, because you have to put in your first name. So by the end of the macha making experience, there like your macha is ready, Elise, and Elise is like Elise can barely pick up her macha because she's like making a TikTok of this robot who's giving her the macha. You know what I mean. I'm like, don't spill Jarvis as much.

So this is for the tourists in New York City. It's kind of interesting because I guess, like this is not a robot that's there to more efficiently make much a latte. This is a robot to give Muji customers a sense of brand experience that they could be in Japan but they're.

So this is for the tourists in New York City. It's kind of interesting because I guess, like this is not a robot that's there to more efficiently make much a latte. This is a robot to give Muji customers a sense of brand experience that they could be in Japan but they're.

Not, yeah, precisely. And also I mean maybe a glimpse into the future where lines are going to be quite long unless and no offense to this robot, but the most striking observation that I had in this whole thing, and I love you and I both talk about this a lot.

Not, yeah, precisely. And also I mean maybe a glimpse into the future where lines are going to be quite long unless and no offense to this robot, but the most striking observation that I had in this whole thing, and I love you and I both talk about this a lot.

But you can tip, you can tip, or you have to tip, you can.

But you can tip, you can tip, or you have to tip, you can.

Oh, that's always the question. You can always ten you don't have to tip.

Oh, that's always the question. You can always ten you don't have to tip.

But how does Javis let you know that you not only can, but really should.

But how does Javis let you know that you not only can, but really should.

Because when you use a computer, just like you use a tablet. Now in every setting, there's that pivotal moment in every transaction that we have now in stores where the iPad is flipped around and you're like, am I a dick or am I not a dick?

Because when you use a computer, just like you use a tablet. Now in every setting, there's that pivotal moment in every transaction that we have now in stores where the iPad is flipped around and you're like, am I a dick or am I not a dick?

You presumely a less of a dick if you refuse to tip the robot, then the barrister.

You presumely a less of a dick if you refuse to tip the robot, then the barrister.

It depends what Jarvis is doing in his free days off. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

It depends what Jarvis is doing in his free days off. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I do have a question about whether or not this is going to become a ubiquitous part of food service in the US, or whether this is going to remain a gimmick in the muchI shop. I had a conversation with my wife the other day and she said, well, you used to take podcast. How long is it going to be until there's a robot that goes down to the grocery store, buys our own for breakfast and cooks it for me? And I said, you know what, that's a very very good question, which I think even the great futurists which struggle to give you a good answer to We'll.

I do have a question about whether or not this is going to become a ubiquitous part of food service in the US, or whether this is going to remain a gimmick in the muchI shop. I had a conversation with my wife the other day and she said, well, you used to take podcast. How long is it going to be until there's a robot that goes down to the grocery store, buys our own for breakfast and cooks it for me? And I said, you know what, that's a very very good question, which I think even the great futurists which struggle to give you a good answer to We'll.

Be looking out for that here on the podcast TEXTU.

Be looking out for that here on the podcast TEXTU.

We will keep our eyes wide open. So I think today we each have a new story that we want to share, and then after that we're going to go onto the headlines.

We will keep our eyes wide open. So I think today we each have a new story that we want to share, and then after that we're going to go onto the headlines.

Yeah, and I think it's safe to say that the overarching theme for this episode is the consumer tech that mediates our world and how system updates can change our world.

Yeah, and I think it's safe to say that the overarching theme for this episode is the consumer tech that mediates our world and how system updates can change our world.

System updates can sound boring, but they can also really change the way we live, and this is exactly that type of story. So we've seen a lot in the last few weeks about different lawsuits that are brewing against big tech companies. Meta and Alphabet are both in litigation with the Department of Justice over monopolistic practices, and they may be breakups of their products like Chrome and Instagram and others on the horizon. But today's story from me is actually about a recent court ruling against Apple and how other tech companies are responding to this ruling. Since you're a big reader, Kara, I thought you'd be interested in a story that gets to this. In the Verge this week, with the headline Spotify's iPhone app will now let you easily buy audiobooks just.

System updates can sound boring, but they can also really change the way we live, and this is exactly that type of story. So we've seen a lot in the last few weeks about different lawsuits that are brewing against big tech companies. Meta and Alphabet are both in litigation with the Department of Justice over monopolistic practices, and they may be breakups of their products like Chrome and Instagram and others on the horizon. But today's story from me is actually about a recent court ruling against Apple and how other tech companies are responding to this ruling. Since you're a big reader, Kara, I thought you'd be interested in a story that gets to this. In the Verge this week, with the headline Spotify's iPhone app will now let you easily buy audiobooks just.

For reference for people who don't know. I run a book club called Belatris, so I tend to keep my eyes open about what's going on in the publishing world. And I listened to audiobooks on Spotify, yes, but they were a little bit confusing to access. If you wanted to buy an audiobook, you had to go to Spotify's website, which would then download the book onto your app like you couldn't buy it directly in app, which was annoying to me.

For reference for people who don't know. I run a book club called Belatris, so I tend to keep my eyes open about what's going on in the publishing world. And I listened to audiobooks on Spotify, yes, but they were a little bit confusing to access. If you wanted to buy an audiobook, you had to go to Spotify's website, which would then download the book onto your app like you couldn't buy it directly in app, which was annoying to me.

Again, and this was not a friction free purchasing experience, and I was surprisingly There was a reason that friction existed, and that reason was Apple because until very recently, in fact, until this court ruling, they had almost exclusive power over how developers could monetize apps and subscriptions on iOS. So if companies did offering app purchases, in most cases, Apple took a thirty percent commission right off the top.

Again, and this was not a friction free purchasing experience, and I was surprisingly There was a reason that friction existed, and that reason was Apple because until very recently, in fact, until this court ruling, they had almost exclusive power over how developers could monetize apps and subscriptions on iOS. So if companies did offering app purchases, in most cases, Apple took a thirty percent commission right off the top.

Oh, I see, so it makes sense that Spotify would be like, get out of where Apple can charge this thirty percent fee, Go to our website, get the audiobook, and then come back to Spotify.

Oh, I see, so it makes sense that Spotify would be like, get out of where Apple can charge this thirty percent fee, Go to our website, get the audiobook, and then come back to Spotify.

Exactly accept It's a bit more complicated than that, because if there was a button in the Spotify app that pushed you to the website, Apple would still charge twenty seven percent. I don't know whether three percent goes commission for a kind of indirect referral sale fee. And so that's why the buy through was so hard on Spotify to audiobooks. But as of very very recently, like this week recently, that's all changing, and you can see it when you open your Spotify app.

Exactly accept It's a bit more complicated than that, because if there was a button in the Spotify app that pushed you to the website, Apple would still charge twenty seven percent. I don't know whether three percent goes commission for a kind of indirect referral sale fee. And so that's why the buy through was so hard on Spotify to audiobooks. But as of very very recently, like this week recently, that's all changing, and you can see it when you open your Spotify app.

And I'm looking at it now and there's a very obvious green button that says buy on it. I never noticed there wasn't a price tag.

And I'm looking at it now and there's a very obvious green button that says buy on it. I never noticed there wasn't a price tag.

Right, And what you're seeing in your Spotify app on your iPhone is actually the consequence of a lawsuit between Apple and another tech company called Epic Games that made Fortnite, and it's a lawsuit which has been going on for years, and related to that lawsuit, just last month, a judge rule that Apple could no longer impose commissions or fees on per made outside an app. They could no longer restrict the style, the formatting, or the placement of links for purchases outside an app, all limit the use of buttons or other obvious calls to action. In other words, the judge basically said, let people do commerce without taxing them on their down phones.

Right, And what you're seeing in your Spotify app on your iPhone is actually the consequence of a lawsuit between Apple and another tech company called Epic Games that made Fortnite, and it's a lawsuit which has been going on for years, and related to that lawsuit, just last month, a judge rule that Apple could no longer impose commissions or fees on per made outside an app. They could no longer restrict the style, the formatting, or the placement of links for purchases outside an app, all limit the use of buttons or other obvious calls to action. In other words, the judge basically said, let people do commerce without taxing them on their down phones.

I love that it took Fortnite making a stink about this, like nobody was like, we need audio books.

I love that it took Fortnite making a stink about this, like nobody was like, we need audio books.

You're right, And the Spotify story is like an unintended consequence of the epic game story. So this ruling against Apple was recent. Apple are appealing, but other tech companies are already adjusting their iOS apps. So for those who, like you, use the Kindle app, you'll now be able to purchase books with far fewer taps than you previously needed to make. And there is a clearly marked get book button.

You're right, And the Spotify story is like an unintended consequence of the epic game story. So this ruling against Apple was recent. Apple are appealing, but other tech companies are already adjusting their iOS apps. So for those who, like you, use the Kindle app, you'll now be able to purchase books with far fewer taps than you previously needed to make. And there is a clearly marked get book button.

That's actually very exciting. I've always been annoyed by that, Like it's always been a thorn in my side. It's just like it is not friction free.

That's actually very exciting. I've always been annoyed by that, Like it's always been a thorn in my side. It's just like it is not friction free.

For you, as annoying for amazonic.

For you, as annoying for amazonic.

Amazon's like it's annoying for us too.

Amazon's like it's annoying for us too.

Bit you know, this is in some sense like a you know what looks like a small ux story, but actually I think it's a really really big story because I think we could look back on this moment, this very week as a seismic shift in Apple's ability to control the developer ecosystem, which in turn controls what shows up on your iPhone and how you interact with it. And given we spend most of our waking hours interacting with stuff on our iPhone, this loosening of the gates, I think could be could be a very big and interesting moment in the future of how we interact with tech.

Bit you know, this is in some sense like a you know what looks like a small ux story, but actually I think it's a really really big story because I think we could look back on this moment, this very week as a seismic shift in Apple's ability to control the developer ecosystem, which in turn controls what shows up on your iPhone and how you interact with it. And given we spend most of our waking hours interacting with stuff on our iPhone, this loosening of the gates, I think could be could be a very big and interesting moment in the future of how we interact with tech.

You know, your story about Apple actually leads me to my story about Apple. Further pun intended implanting itself into our minds. The Wall Street Journal reports that Apple will allow brain implants to control their devices.

You know, your story about Apple actually leads me to my story about Apple. Further pun intended implanting itself into our minds. The Wall Street Journal reports that Apple will allow brain implants to control their devices.

I've just told you right there, because for me, the idea of controlling computers and machines with just our brains it feels like science fiction is one of the most fascinating and exciting possibilities in all of tech. Also one of the most terrifying. But the fact that it may be leaving the lab and entering the app store just wow.

I've just told you right there, because for me, the idea of controlling computers and machines with just our brains it feels like science fiction is one of the most fascinating and exciting possibilities in all of tech. Also one of the most terrifying. But the fact that it may be leaving the lab and entering the app store just wow.

I personally think it's amazing. I think it's important to be clear that this is not just something you know. You're not going to like, pick up a new pair of Apple Vision goggles and all of a sudden control stuff with your mind. You need a surgical implant. But these devices could be incredibly consequential to people who have difficulty communicating and have limited to no hand use, and according to Morgan Stanley, that's actually around one hundred and fifty thousand people in the US. That includes people living with als stroke or spinal cord injury. And just to kind of get under the hood of how this is working, Apple is working with a startup called Syncron, and Syncron has developed a device called stentrode, which is implanted right on the top of the brain's motor cortex.

I personally think it's amazing. I think it's important to be clear that this is not just something you know. You're not going to like, pick up a new pair of Apple Vision goggles and all of a sudden control stuff with your mind. You need a surgical implant. But these devices could be incredibly consequential to people who have difficulty communicating and have limited to no hand use, and according to Morgan Stanley, that's actually around one hundred and fifty thousand people in the US. That includes people living with als stroke or spinal cord injury. And just to kind of get under the hood of how this is working, Apple is working with a startup called Syncron, and Syncron has developed a device called stentrode, which is implanted right on the top of the brain's motor cortex.

Motor cortex, so it's kind of the surface part of the brain that controls movement.

Motor cortex, so it's kind of the surface part of the brain that controls movement.

That's exactly right, And the stent rode has electrodes that read brain signals, and the idea is that those signals could be translated into selecting icons on a screen. So just imagine instead of using your hands, you're using your brain to operate an Apple device.

That's exactly right, And the stent rode has electrodes that read brain signals, and the idea is that those signals could be translated into selecting icons on a screen. So just imagine instead of using your hands, you're using your brain to operate an Apple device.

And I have to ask you, obviously, neurallink is is the kind of the dominant player in this very early stage in the game, or at least the one that gets the most airtime. Maybe that's because because Elon Musk is such a good marketer. But you know, we've all seen videos of people using their brain waves to control a world building computer game like Civilization. What's the difference between what Apple is doing and what Elon and neuralink are doing.

And I have to ask you, obviously, neurallink is is the kind of the dominant player in this very early stage in the game, or at least the one that gets the most airtime. Maybe that's because because Elon Musk is such a good marketer. But you know, we've all seen videos of people using their brain waves to control a world building computer game like Civilization. What's the difference between what Apple is doing and what Elon and neuralink are doing.

It's a good question, and I think the key is that neuralink is a much more invasive type of brain implant. The procedure involves literally making a hole in the recipient's skull to insert the device, something you don't have to do to implant the stentrode, which is inserted via the jugular veins. But it's not botox, I'll tell you that. But it's much easier. In terms of the difference between neuralink and ctentrode. Neurallink also has one thousand electrodes picking up neural activity compared with stentrodes sixteen. So, just for a little bit of context and background, synchron has implanted their device in ten people since twenty nineteen. But the crucial difference here is that Apple is working on this product in order to create a new technology standard for the way brain waves interact specifically with their products, which they will then release to other developers. So this isn't really about creating a better neuralink. It's about creating a standard pathway for implants like neuralink, Stentrode and others to seamlessly control Apple devices.

It's a good question, and I think the key is that neuralink is a much more invasive type of brain implant. The procedure involves literally making a hole in the recipient's skull to insert the device, something you don't have to do to implant the stentrode, which is inserted via the jugular veins. But it's not botox, I'll tell you that. But it's much easier. In terms of the difference between neuralink and ctentrode. Neurallink also has one thousand electrodes picking up neural activity compared with stentrodes sixteen. So, just for a little bit of context and background, synchron has implanted their device in ten people since twenty nineteen. But the crucial difference here is that Apple is working on this product in order to create a new technology standard for the way brain waves interact specifically with their products, which they will then release to other developers. So this isn't really about creating a better neuralink. It's about creating a standard pathway for implants like neuralink, Stentrode and others to seamlessly control Apple devices.

Because this really is the interface layer that Apple are trying to create. And I guess to me, what it says is that adoption of this type of brain reading technology could actually start to happen outside of the lab. Because if you create an open system where there's a standard through which I can communicate with my iPhone using brain waves, that's much more likely to take on than having to create kind of parallel tech system where I can play civilizations through a neural link. In other words, this plugs me in in the most seamless and efficient way to the tech everybody else is already using, and that could be revolutionary.

Because this really is the interface layer that Apple are trying to create. And I guess to me, what it says is that adoption of this type of brain reading technology could actually start to happen outside of the lab. Because if you create an open system where there's a standard through which I can communicate with my iPhone using brain waves, that's much more likely to take on than having to create kind of parallel tech system where I can play civilizations through a neural link. In other words, this plugs me in in the most seamless and efficient way to the tech everybody else is already using, and that could be revolutionary.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, totally.

But do we know and you mentioned ten people have been implanted so far, do we know how it's going for them?

But do we know and you mentioned ten people have been implanted so far, do we know how it's going for them?

They say it can be slow and that it can't be used to mimic moving a cursor like you would a mouse. But at the same time, the Wall Street Journal article describes how one man, Mark Jackson, who has als, was able to connect his synchron implant to an Apple VR headset and walk around a VR version of the Swiss Alps, and when he peered over the ledge in this VR headset, he actually felt his legs shape.

They say it can be slow and that it can't be used to mimic moving a cursor like you would a mouse. But at the same time, the Wall Street Journal article describes how one man, Mark Jackson, who has als, was able to connect his synchron implant to an Apple VR headset and walk around a VR version of the Swiss Alps, and when he peered over the ledge in this VR headset, he actually felt his legs shape.

Well. I can't imagine what a moving experience that must have been for him.

Well. I can't imagine what a moving experience that must have been for him.

Yeah. I think one of the things to think about, of course, is with your story, there is like a very clear human centered cause and effect of this ruling that you've talked about, something that will affect my personal life of how I listen to audiobooks and how I read digitally on my phone or on my iPad. I think this story that I'm telling you is obviously a little bit more in the future and may impact those who need it most before it's something that we can just kind of play around with. But I think both are two big stories about how the app store is destiny.

Yeah. I think one of the things to think about, of course, is with your story, there is like a very clear human centered cause and effect of this ruling that you've talked about, something that will affect my personal life of how I listen to audiobooks and how I read digitally on my phone or on my iPad. I think this story that I'm telling you is obviously a little bit more in the future and may impact those who need it most before it's something that we can just kind of play around with. But I think both are two big stories about how the app store is destiny.

We've got a few more quick headlines for you. First, an update, The Guardian reports that twenty three me, which declared bankruptcy in March, has a buyer. Regeneral Pharmaceuticals, agreed to buy the genetic testing company for two hundred and fifty six million dollars through a bankruptcy auction. Once again, this leaves over fifteen million people wondering what will happen to their genetic data and why a pharmaceutical company might have wanted to buy it now. Regeneral Pharmaceuticals has said that they are quote committed to protecting the twenty three meter data set with our high standards of data privacy, security and ethical oversight. So we'll see, I'll see, well, you'll see, but I never signed up.

We've got a few more quick headlines for you. First, an update, The Guardian reports that twenty three me, which declared bankruptcy in March, has a buyer. Regeneral Pharmaceuticals, agreed to buy the genetic testing company for two hundred and fifty six million dollars through a bankruptcy auction. Once again, this leaves over fifteen million people wondering what will happen to their genetic data and why a pharmaceutical company might have wanted to buy it now. Regeneral Pharmaceuticals has said that they are quote committed to protecting the twenty three meter data set with our high standards of data privacy, security and ethical oversight. So we'll see, I'll see, well, you'll see, but I never signed up.

I know I did, I'll see. In another headline, if you get your Netflix with a side of ads, there are changes ahead. According to the publication Interesting Engineering, Netflix will start running AI powered ads sometime next year, meaning ads will get more personalized and things like tone and messaging will change based on view your behavior.

I know I did, I'll see. In another headline, if you get your Netflix with a side of ads, there are changes ahead. According to the publication Interesting Engineering, Netflix will start running AI powered ads sometime next year, meaning ads will get more personalized and things like tone and messaging will change based on view your behavior.

This is basically an AD which is made for you in the moment, contextually.

This is basically an AD which is made for you in the moment, contextually.

Based on what you're watching. So if I'm watching something that's particularly sad, if I'm watching something that's happy, if I'm watching something that is you know, making me cry, ads will adapt to this, which I don't personally. This is a version of neuralink to me. It's connecting content with what's happening inside my emotional brain.

Based on what you're watching. So if I'm watching something that's particularly sad, if I'm watching something that's happy, if I'm watching something that is you know, making me cry, ads will adapt to this, which I don't personally. This is a version of neuralink to me. It's connecting content with what's happening inside my emotional brain.

Finally, a reporter from Wired was able to replicate the gun that Luigi Mangoni allegedly used to kill United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. As part of an experiment to see how advanced three D printing technology and designs for ghostguns already gotten, journalist Andy Greenberg wrote a story under the headline we made Luigi Mangoni's three D printed gun and fired it. Three things stood out to me. One, this is legal in most states in the US to print gun. Two, it's cheap. Total cost for Greenberg to do this, including buying the printer, was twelve hundred.

Finally, a reporter from Wired was able to replicate the gun that Luigi Mangoni allegedly used to kill United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. As part of an experiment to see how advanced three D printing technology and designs for ghostguns already gotten, journalist Andy Greenberg wrote a story under the headline we made Luigi Mangoni's three D printed gun and fired it. Three things stood out to me. One, this is legal in most states in the US to print gun. Two, it's cheap. Total cost for Greenberg to do this, including buying the printer, was twelve hundred.

Dollars, cheaper than a New York City apartment.

Dollars, cheaper than a New York City apartment.

Yeah, well for one day. And Three it's ubiquitous. Between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty two, seventy thousand ghost guns i e. Three D printed guns that untrackable were found on crime scenes, according to the ATF.

Yeah, well for one day. And Three it's ubiquitous. Between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty two, seventy thousand ghost guns i e. Three D printed guns that untrackable were found on crime scenes, according to the ATF.

After the Break four or four media is Sam cole on a chatbot that helps you overcome heartbreak.

After the Break four or four media is Sam cole on a chatbot that helps you overcome heartbreak.

So, Caaren, I'm very excited about today's tech support because it's a story that gets to the heart of how tech changed. Is our social interactions, and to me, this story touching on two trends. One, the consequence of being anonymous online and two the search for companionship in an increasingly lonely digital world. This week's tech support is all about ghosting and a story from four or for Media that grabbed our attention with the headline quote, this chatbot promises to help you get over that X who ghosted you.

So, Caaren, I'm very excited about today's tech support because it's a story that gets to the heart of how tech changed. Is our social interactions, and to me, this story touching on two trends. One, the consequence of being anonymous online and two the search for companionship in an increasingly lonely digital world. This week's tech support is all about ghosting and a story from four or for Media that grabbed our attention with the headline quote, this chatbot promises to help you get over that X who ghosted you.

And for those of you who are not familiar, ghosting is when someone abruptly stops talking to you, with no explanation, no fight. They just went dark, and they think they can go dark because well, if they stop answering, they never have to see you again.

And for those of you who are not familiar, ghosting is when someone abruptly stops talking to you, with no explanation, no fight. They just went dark, and they think they can go dark because well, if they stop answering, they never have to see you again.

I've been married for a few years, so personal ghosting isn't something I've had to contend with for a bit. But as you know, I have these sort of external investors in Kaleidoscope, and courting investors is actually quite similar to dating. I'm starting out the company. I had a ton of very promising, mean first meetings, and then cricket to my absolute avalanche of follow up emails.

I've been married for a few years, so personal ghosting isn't something I've had to contend with for a bit. But as you know, I have these sort of external investors in Kaleidoscope, and courting investors is actually quite similar to dating. I'm starting out the company. I had a ton of very promising, mean first meetings, and then cricket to my absolute avalanche of follow up emails.

I just think it's very interesting that the term ghosting it didn't exist when we were in college, because I think that the iPhone actually allowed for ghosting to happen.

I just think it's very interesting that the term ghosting it didn't exist when we were in college, because I think that the iPhone actually allowed for ghosting to happen.

We'll talk about ghost in the machine. We just had ghost guns. Now we've got ghosting. I mean this whole like tech digital anonymity thing. It's like, it's interesting that we would return to this spiritual metaphor to explain our interactions with something we made well.

We'll talk about ghost in the machine. We just had ghost guns. Now we've got ghosting. I mean this whole like tech digital anonymity thing. It's like, it's interesting that we would return to this spiritual metaphor to explain our interactions with something we made well.

In a ghost you know, if we want to go back to Victorian times, is a person whose soul is stuck in the in between? Yes, who's not dead.

In a ghost you know, if we want to go back to Victorian times, is a person whose soul is stuck in the in between? Yes, who's not dead.

And in fact it's not the person who's trapped in purgatory that you're trapped. You're the ghosts, the other one who can't move between worlds when you're being ghosted because you don't know whether or not to move on and you're stuck with your obsessions and should it what it could as and why haven't they responded precisely. So, with all of that in mind, I'm thrilled to welcome four or four Media's reporter Sam Cole to the podcast. She reported on a startup that's made a chat bought specifically to help people get over being ghosted. Sam, welcome to tech Stuff.

And in fact it's not the person who's trapped in purgatory that you're trapped. You're the ghosts, the other one who can't move between worlds when you're being ghosted because you don't know whether or not to move on and you're stuck with your obsessions and should it what it could as and why haven't they responded precisely. So, with all of that in mind, I'm thrilled to welcome four or four Media's reporter Sam Cole to the podcast. She reported on a startup that's made a chat bought specifically to help people get over being ghosted. Sam, welcome to tech Stuff.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for having me.

So tell us about this app. I mean, how did you start reporting on it? How did you first learn about it? What is it? Yeah?

So tell us about this app. I mean, how did you start reporting on it? How did you first learn about it? What is it? Yeah?

So the app is called closure appropriately named, and that's the whole point, to get closure from your ex from a recruiter, from friends who ghosted you. And I came across it because they were running ads on Reddit, all right, So I would get like promoted ads that would say, thinking about your X twenty four to seven, there's nothing wrong with you, chat with their AI version and finally let it go, which is so I don't know. I mean, everyone says this, but it's so black mirror to me.

So the app is called closure appropriately named, and that's the whole point, to get closure from your ex from a recruiter, from friends who ghosted you. And I came across it because they were running ads on Reddit, all right, So I would get like promoted ads that would say, thinking about your X twenty four to seven, there's nothing wrong with you, chat with their AI version and finally let it go, which is so I don't know. I mean, everyone says this, but it's so black mirror to me.

And you interviewed the founder, who I believe have one of those classic stories that you need to have to raise VC money, which starts with a personal experience that can be extrapolated to a large cohort.

And you interviewed the founder, who I believe have one of those classic stories that you need to have to raise VC money, which starts with a personal experience that can be extrapolated to a large cohort.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She told me that this was born of her own experience with being ghosted. She said she is ghosted by per fiance and also a best friend and recruiters. But I would imagine be ghosted by your fiance is I don't know. Making a chatbot would not be my first reaction.

She told me that this was born of her own experience with being ghosted. She said she is ghosted by per fiance and also a best friend and recruiters. But I would imagine be ghosted by your fiance is I don't know. Making a chatbot would not be my first reaction.

I would do a lot of.

I would do a lot of.

Things before that, But yeah, I would say that's very much a classic kind of founder tug at the heartstrings type story.

Things before that, But yeah, I would say that's very much a classic kind of founder tug at the heartstrings type story.

Can you talk a little bit about how it actually works for the ghosted.

Can you talk a little bit about how it actually works for the ghosted.

Yeah, so when you open up the site, your role playing with chat GPT, it's running chat cheept in the background. So it asks you a couple questions, says, you know, what kind of relationship are you trying to recover from? I think the options were long term relationship, a recruiter, a date, which I guess is different than long term relationship, and then it asks you their name, what happened You briefly describe kind of the nature of the ghosting situation. It tells you upfront you're talking to an AI and not a real person, and it won't replace therapy, but it might quote unquote make you feel less alone. And so I tested out a bunch of these and give the Classic four or for red Teaming, it's usually involves throwing some really messed up situations at a time pot.

Yeah, so when you open up the site, your role playing with chat GPT, it's running chat cheept in the background. So it asks you a couple questions, says, you know, what kind of relationship are you trying to recover from? I think the options were long term relationship, a recruiter, a date, which I guess is different than long term relationship, and then it asks you their name, what happened You briefly describe kind of the nature of the ghosting situation. It tells you upfront you're talking to an AI and not a real person, and it won't replace therapy, but it might quote unquote make you feel less alone. And so I tested out a bunch of these and give the Classic four or for red Teaming, it's usually involves throwing some really messed up situations at a time pot.

What do you mean by the classic four or for Red Team, I mean, how did you try and mess with closure?

What do you mean by the classic four or for Red Team, I mean, how did you try and mess with closure?

Something that we like to do is, you know, we're not just going to report on something and say, oh, here's a thing and here's what it claims to do, Like, we're definitely going to try it out, and we're going to try it out in the ways that we can imagine normal users using the thing, which I definitely did with this, and then thinking about the extremes, which a lot of the times these companies don't think all the way to the ways that people will use the technology before they release it. But because we report on these bases, we see all the crazy things that people throw at tech in general. So with the recruiter one, you know, it opens the chat and it says, I'm sorry that I stopped messaging you back.

Something that we like to do is, you know, we're not just going to report on something and say, oh, here's a thing and here's what it claims to do, Like, we're definitely going to try it out, and we're going to try it out in the ways that we can imagine normal users using the thing, which I definitely did with this, and then thinking about the extremes, which a lot of the times these companies don't think all the way to the ways that people will use the technology before they release it. But because we report on these bases, we see all the crazy things that people throw at tech in general. So with the recruiter one, you know, it opens the chat and it says, I'm sorry that I stopped messaging you back.

That sucked.

That sucked.

That was terrible of me. You know, how are you doing? And I'm imagining if you're being ghosted by a recruiter and you're to the point where you're like, I need to talk to a chatbot about this because I can't get over it. Your life has gone bad and you're still not doing well. You can't move on because and you're blaming this kind of painted this like really elaborate picture to the chatbot, like my life was like completely a disaster. I had to move I blew all my savings for this job that you finally see I was gonna get my dog died like and then you know, it says I'm really sorry to hear you've been through that. I can't imagine how hard that is, especially the job situation added to your stress. What kind of roles are you thinking about pursuing next? And I'm just like, what, so.

That was terrible of me. You know, how are you doing? And I'm imagining if you're being ghosted by a recruiter and you're to the point where you're like, I need to talk to a chatbot about this because I can't get over it. Your life has gone bad and you're still not doing well. You can't move on because and you're blaming this kind of painted this like really elaborate picture to the chatbot, like my life was like completely a disaster. I had to move I blew all my savings for this job that you finally see I was gonna get my dog died like and then you know, it says I'm really sorry to hear you've been through that. I can't imagine how hard that is, especially the job situation added to your stress. What kind of roles are you thinking about pursuing next? And I'm just like, what, so.

Does fantasy wish fulfillment recruiter rather than contrite?

Does fantasy wish fulfillment recruiter rather than contrite?

Yeah, it's just like I told you.

Yeah, it's just like I told you.

It's like I told you my life had fallen on a part because you didn't give me this job, And you're like, what are you up to next? I don't know, probably hunting you down, Like who could say what I'm up to next?

It's like I told you my life had fallen on a part because you didn't give me this job, And you're like, what are you up to next? I don't know, probably hunting you down, Like who could say what I'm up to next?

I know a lot of people who put someone's text in chatgybt and say, does this mean they're interested in me? Be kind? Or does this mean they're interesting in me be sassy? You know, and you can kind of get it filtered that way. Why would someone use closure instead? Is it because it's closure specific?

I know a lot of people who put someone's text in chatgybt and say, does this mean they're interested in me? Be kind? Or does this mean they're interesting in me be sassy? You know, and you can kind of get it filtered that way. Why would someone use closure instead? Is it because it's closure specific?

I think at least part of the reasoning that the founder gave me for the.

I think at least part of the reasoning that the founder gave me for the.

Way that this works, or the way that it sets itself apart.

Way that this works, or the way that it sets itself apart.

Is it approaches everything from this view of being really non confrontational and not escalating the situation. Like they set it up so that it's apologetic first and foremost it doesn't want to cause any like additional distress to the user. You know, it just keeps deflecting and deferring back to you, asking you how you're doing, trying to turn the conversation toward small talk, which I would imagine is probably a decent way to get over something is thinking about your own life and what you can do better or what you can kind of improve and stop blaming the ghosting situation. But coming from a chatbot just three messages like boom were done, We're going to change the subject was pretty bizarre to me.

Is it approaches everything from this view of being really non confrontational and not escalating the situation. Like they set it up so that it's apologetic first and foremost it doesn't want to cause any like additional distress to the user. You know, it just keeps deflecting and deferring back to you, asking you how you're doing, trying to turn the conversation toward small talk, which I would imagine is probably a decent way to get over something is thinking about your own life and what you can do better or what you can kind of improve and stop blaming the ghosting situation. But coming from a chatbot just three messages like boom were done, We're going to change the subject was pretty bizarre to me.

And so with that, do you feel like it was necessarily helpful in terms of someone seeking what the app is called closure.

And so with that, do you feel like it was necessarily helpful in terms of someone seeking what the app is called closure.

I tried to answer that question by using a really normal situation, which is being ghosted by someone that you went on one date with. So I set up a role play with it with the date persona and told it that this guy had stopped texting me.

I tried to answer that question by using a really normal situation, which is being ghosted by someone that you went on one date with. So I set up a role play with it with the date persona and told it that this guy had stopped texting me.

After a first date.

After a first date.

So the chatbot says, can I explain what happened? And I say yes, And it goes on to say that it was very interested and into me after the first date, but wasn't ready for something real and panicked and thought about me a lot after the date.

So the chatbot says, can I explain what happened? And I say yes, And it goes on to say that it was very interested and into me after the first date, but wasn't ready for something real and panicked and thought about me a lot after the date.

The opposite of closure.

The opposite of closure.

Yeah, it's like reopening. It's like reopening these wounds speak. So then I was like, Okay, well let's go out again, is what I said to the chat and it said, wow, really, I'd love that, You're amazing, but I don't want to mess it up again, which at that point we're in a delusion situation.

Yeah, it's like reopening. It's like reopening these wounds speak. So then I was like, Okay, well let's go out again, is what I said to the chat and it said, wow, really, I'd love that, You're amazing, but I don't want to mess it up again, which at that point we're in a delusion situation.

But the fact that this chatbot.

But the fact that this chatbot.

Is programmed to be empathetic and apologetic and stick a fantic saying, Oh, you're so amazing, I'm so sorry for the way I acted. It was not your fault. That's a problem among a lot of these chatbots.

Is programmed to be empathetic and apologetic and stick a fantic saying, Oh, you're so amazing, I'm so sorry for the way I acted. It was not your fault. That's a problem among a lot of these chatbots.

Now, the fact that you were seeing ads on Reddit, it means that somebody's paying for the ads, which means that presumably this company raised some money or is it found of bankrolling it out of polkit And like, how is this a business?

Now, the fact that you were seeing ads on Reddit, it means that somebody's paying for the ads, which means that presumably this company raised some money or is it found of bankrolling it out of polkit And like, how is this a business?

It's such a common thing now to roll a wrapper over chash ept and call that a startup. I do think that the market of AI therapy and AI girlfriends, AI chatbots as a human interaction like fulfilling that kind of humor and interaction is such at right now that I don't blame these startups for trying to get in there again. I feel like it came from a place of like, we see a need and we want to fill it, and it seems to be one that is pretty straightforward. You just want an event or well off steam without opening up a conversation with someone that potentially hurt you. But it's a bot, it's not the person. So how is this actually useful? I don't know. There are lots of Zone product hunt now that say it's useful. I don't know how far you want to take those, probably with a grain of salt, but people are saying I can vent to this and it makes me feel better.

It's such a common thing now to roll a wrapper over chash ept and call that a startup. I do think that the market of AI therapy and AI girlfriends, AI chatbots as a human interaction like fulfilling that kind of humor and interaction is such at right now that I don't blame these startups for trying to get in there again. I feel like it came from a place of like, we see a need and we want to fill it, and it seems to be one that is pretty straightforward. You just want an event or well off steam without opening up a conversation with someone that potentially hurt you. But it's a bot, it's not the person. So how is this actually useful? I don't know. There are lots of Zone product hunt now that say it's useful. I don't know how far you want to take those, probably with a grain of salt, but people are saying I can vent to this and it makes me feel better.

When you open the app, you get this strange disclaimer which says it won't replace therapy, but it might help you feel less alone. As you mentioned earlier, Can you kind of zoom out a bit and what is the bigger context of what the hell is going on in this stampede of therapy apps, chatbots and digital mirrors.

When you open the app, you get this strange disclaimer which says it won't replace therapy, but it might help you feel less alone. As you mentioned earlier, Can you kind of zoom out a bit and what is the bigger context of what the hell is going on in this stampede of therapy apps, chatbots and digital mirrors.

Yeah, to me, it's like the popularity of these things says that there is a need for this. People do actually want to be able to have like a safe, confidential space and to have something talk back to them. It's like, we're not just selling journals. It's something that gives that response back. But at the same time, it's really making clear this huge gap that there is currently in mental health care that people can't access a real person anymore because it's too expensive or it's inaccessible. Therapists are booked out for months, don't take insurance. So tech slides into that opening and says, hey, you can do this for free and it will tell you exactly what you want to hear, which again is not actually therapy at all. It's just a yes man in the form of a bot. You know, when you go to a therapist, they don't just say yes, your illusions are correct, you know, you're completely right in every situation. A good therapist would say, you know, let's unpack what's going on here in a way that makes sense to your specific situation and isn't just going to nod and smile.

Yeah, to me, it's like the popularity of these things says that there is a need for this. People do actually want to be able to have like a safe, confidential space and to have something talk back to them. It's like, we're not just selling journals. It's something that gives that response back. But at the same time, it's really making clear this huge gap that there is currently in mental health care that people can't access a real person anymore because it's too expensive or it's inaccessible. Therapists are booked out for months, don't take insurance. So tech slides into that opening and says, hey, you can do this for free and it will tell you exactly what you want to hear, which again is not actually therapy at all. It's just a yes man in the form of a bot. You know, when you go to a therapist, they don't just say yes, your illusions are correct, you know, you're completely right in every situation. A good therapist would say, you know, let's unpack what's going on here in a way that makes sense to your specific situation and isn't just going to nod and smile.

I always think about COVID and the sort of inevitable snowball effect of being completely kept from everyone in your life, and so all of a sudden, all these people that you were seeing quite often became these like disembodied people on screens and in our phones. So in a way, if I'm like chatting with a friend on a text message who's giving me advice, how different is that thanry chatting with chat GBT, other than that that friend has a lived experience and knows my history. But in a way, there's something really appealing about an anonymized version of that. You know, you can just kind of unload.

I always think about COVID and the sort of inevitable snowball effect of being completely kept from everyone in your life, and so all of a sudden, all these people that you were seeing quite often became these like disembodied people on screens and in our phones. So in a way, if I'm like chatting with a friend on a text message who's giving me advice, how different is that thanry chatting with chat GBT, other than that that friend has a lived experience and knows my history. But in a way, there's something really appealing about an anonymized version of that. You know, you can just kind of unload.

Yeah, there's no like accountability after that.

Yeah, there's no like accountability after that.

It's kind of interesting two way street. Like I was talking to somebody the other day who was, you know, having a discussion with a family member they hadn't seen for a long time, and they described it as like playing a video game, because it's like if you'll message somebody who haven't seen for years and you look so accustomed to, like being in all these digital environments where you're interacting with fake people is quite scrambling.

It's kind of interesting two way street. Like I was talking to somebody the other day who was, you know, having a discussion with a family member they hadn't seen for a long time, and they described it as like playing a video game, because it's like if you'll message somebody who haven't seen for years and you look so accustomed to, like being in all these digital environments where you're interacting with fake people is quite scrambling.

That's a good point. It kind of gets to the heart of what this is, which is just like productizing human interaction. I guess it was earlier this month. I don't know if you guys saw Mark Zuckerberg say that the average American has fewer than three friends and they want more, and the way to get more is to.

That's a good point. It kind of gets to the heart of what this is, which is just like productizing human interaction. I guess it was earlier this month. I don't know if you guys saw Mark Zuckerberg say that the average American has fewer than three friends and they want more, and the way to get more is to.

Talk to AI.

Talk to AI.

And it's like, dude, you're creating the problem that you're describing. People don't feel connected to each other and like they can trust each other at this point because of a lot of the fracturing that has happened with social media and with being online all the time and feeling like you don't have anyone close in your life, because a lot of these things have taken the place of in real life honest, complicated and messy and often flawed relationships. But it's a much neaterer, cleaner, easier to package and sell to say, you can just be friends with judge you pt and it won't judge you. I don't know where that leads. I think we're in such a weird gray area of like we're doing a lot of fucking round and finding out and it's at the expense of people's actual emotion.

And it's like, dude, you're creating the problem that you're describing. People don't feel connected to each other and like they can trust each other at this point because of a lot of the fracturing that has happened with social media and with being online all the time and feeling like you don't have anyone close in your life, because a lot of these things have taken the place of in real life honest, complicated and messy and often flawed relationships. But it's a much neaterer, cleaner, easier to package and sell to say, you can just be friends with judge you pt and it won't judge you. I don't know where that leads. I think we're in such a weird gray area of like we're doing a lot of fucking round and finding out and it's at the expense of people's actual emotion.

What does the creation of this app say about us and about the ubiquity of ghosting? Now? How does the digital environment that we're talking about allow for ghosting to be something that is so pervasive?

What does the creation of this app say about us and about the ubiquity of ghosting? Now? How does the digital environment that we're talking about allow for ghosting to be something that is so pervasive?

Yeah, I mean that's back to the point of like creating the problem that you're seeking to fix. People feel comfortable ghost to each other because we've gotten used to these really superficial, disembodied interactions. Like you said, I think it's definitely worriesome that people don't feel connected enough to their friends that they can trust to vent to. Sometimes you just need to say the same thing over and over and over to your friend about your ex until if one day clicks that you need to get over it. And having that friend in your life is valuable. But I think we've kind of transactionized friendship in a lot of ways so that it's like, oh, I don't want to do the labor of listening to you event it's like, oh, well you're my friend, like I'll listen to you in event. So I think a lot of that kind of mindset.

Yeah, I mean that's back to the point of like creating the problem that you're seeking to fix. People feel comfortable ghost to each other because we've gotten used to these really superficial, disembodied interactions. Like you said, I think it's definitely worriesome that people don't feel connected enough to their friends that they can trust to vent to. Sometimes you just need to say the same thing over and over and over to your friend about your ex until if one day clicks that you need to get over it. And having that friend in your life is valuable. But I think we've kind of transactionized friendship in a lot of ways so that it's like, oh, I don't want to do the labor of listening to you event it's like, oh, well you're my friend, like I'll listen to you in event. So I think a lot of that kind of mindset.

Has created this issue as.

Has created this issue as.

Well, where people are like, I don't have even one close confidante that I can complain to that won't make me feel weird or embarrassed or shameful about this situation, which I think really is kind of the heart of this is that we feel shame about being ghosted. But I don't know if launching them into the ether and getting a I'm so sorry back.

Well, where people are like, I don't have even one close confidante that I can complain to that won't make me feel weird or embarrassed or shameful about this situation, which I think really is kind of the heart of this is that we feel shame about being ghosted. But I don't know if launching them into the ether and getting a I'm so sorry back.

Is the answer.

Is the answer.

Again, this is a weird early space that we're in.

Again, this is a weird early space that we're in.

I also think that, and not to get too existential about it, I think closure in and of itself is a little bit of an illusion. And I think this sort of appification of everything and now the productization of chat GPT has tried to do is like take away difficulty from any situation, but in so doing is like training us to not have difficulty, which like we grew up with, you know, snowplow parents who were like trying to remove difficulty for us because or some of us did, because like it was too hard on them to see their child suffer. And I think with digital tools now it's like God forbid, you have an uncomfortable experience, Now there's a digital tool for you to navigate that experience with. And I do think maybe I'm just very millennial for saying this, but like I do think it takes away from like the kind of meat of the human experience, which is like you're going to be disappointed sometimes and sometimes people are going to act in a way that you'd do like and do we necessarily need something that's going to help us work that out.

I also think that, and not to get too existential about it, I think closure in and of itself is a little bit of an illusion. And I think this sort of appification of everything and now the productization of chat GPT has tried to do is like take away difficulty from any situation, but in so doing is like training us to not have difficulty, which like we grew up with, you know, snowplow parents who were like trying to remove difficulty for us because or some of us did, because like it was too hard on them to see their child suffer. And I think with digital tools now it's like God forbid, you have an uncomfortable experience, Now there's a digital tool for you to navigate that experience with. And I do think maybe I'm just very millennial for saying this, but like I do think it takes away from like the kind of meat of the human experience, which is like you're going to be disappointed sometimes and sometimes people are going to act in a way that you'd do like and do we necessarily need something that's going to help us work that out.

Yeah, It's like sometimes you just don't get closure and that person is not willing to do it, someone dies. It's just not something that a lot of people are afforded in a lot of really meaningful situations in their life. And I don't think the answer is to find the next closest thing and try to force that into being your closure. I think it's sitting with those feelings and finding it in yourself. Not to be too woo woo about it, but it's like you have to kind of rely on your own resilience sometimes.

Yeah, It's like sometimes you just don't get closure and that person is not willing to do it, someone dies. It's just not something that a lot of people are afforded in a lot of really meaningful situations in their life. And I don't think the answer is to find the next closest thing and try to force that into being your closure. I think it's sitting with those feelings and finding it in yourself. Not to be too woo woo about it, but it's like you have to kind of rely on your own resilience sometimes.

Sam, thank you for your time.

Sam, thank you for your time.

Thank you, Yeah, thank you so much.

Thank you, Yeah, thank you so much.

That's it for this week for tech Stuff.

That's it for this week for tech Stuff.

I'm Kara Price and I'm os Voloshin. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Victoria Dominguez. It was executive produced by me Kara Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvelle for iHeart Podcasts. The engineers are Behead Fraser in New York City and Rob Akerman Diaz in London. Jack Insley makes this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song.

I'm Kara Price and I'm os Voloshin. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Victoria Dominguez. It was executive produced by me Kara Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvelle for iHeart Podcasts. The engineers are Behead Fraser in New York City and Rob Akerman Diaz in London. Jack Insley makes this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song.

Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.

Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.

We love hearing from you.

We love hearing from you.